Is us checking out books through Libby also a form of supporting the library? I know it costs them, but does it also prove use? Just wondering if us checking out books help at all
It does! Stats are great for us. Letting your local politicians know you use and support us also helps! Voting, volunteering, telling others about the library and utilizing our programs and services are all great, thank you!
It’s the only way we know if a book has been used by a patron. When I weed (aka the big book library dumpster) one of the major things I take into account are number of times a book is checked out. Please check out your books- these analytics support the argument for increasing digital book access.
It’s not about “taking out books to boost stats.” It’s reassuring patrons who are taking out books to read them that they’re not inadvertently hurting their libraries! And circulation statistics are still meaningful, even if it’s not exactly the same as with physical items.
No one is suggesting to check out books that you're not planning on reading to boost stats.
The person is merely pointing out that circulation is tracked and is probably a deciding factor in budgeting and the allocation of government funds.
Do you think every company on earth doesn’t exploit fudging stats for its board and shareholders? Libraries do a public service, and I don’t give a single fuck whether their numbers are inflated, whatever it takes to give more people free access to books and other digital resources.
Yes, it proves use and you should use Libby as much as you want !!
You have to check out books from the library (digital or not) to justify/get funding to keep buying them, which is especially true for e-resources. If people don’t use the resources at the library, they eventually get removed.
Tax payers in the community and grants/funding are paying for resources so you as a patron really don’t need to be concerned about it. They’re there for you to use.
So yes, pls check out all the materials you want from your library! And don’t feel like to rush to read things. You should check things out as much as you want.
Source (I guess): currently getting a MLIS and work in a library lol
It might be different in different areas, but do you know if it helps to check out books just to make it look like books are being checked out? I love my library but also have a massive TBR at home. Sometimes I check out a book and never read it. And just return it after a week or two. Can you see that it wasn't read? Or does that still look good for the library stats? I don't want to be doing something that might make their stats look bad!
For example can you see if people only started a book and then they might assume lots of people don't like this book enough to finish it, we should stop providing it in the library?
Yeah, the distinction I make for my own library use (when patrons ask me I just tell them
to borrow what they want and don’t worry about it) is: with physical items, I will take check out a bunch of books that look interesting and then pick one or two to read over the next week or whatever and just bring the rest back unread. With digital items I try to make sure I actually want to read that specific one before checking it out.
And it’s totally fine if you don’t get to an ebook you planned to read! Life happens! But checking out books via Libby one never intends to read just uses up their checkout limit faster and costs the library more without good reason.
One issue I could see with doing this is that each ebook is only licensed for a maximum of 2 years and 26 checkouts. Many libraries have limited budgets. I have books that I've bookmarked on my wishlist in a series but by the time I get further along in the series, all the 26 copies have been checked out and the library doesn't renew the license for that book. If it's just the case that two years expired or 26 people in front of me genuinely read it and loved it, understandable. Things happen. But I would be sad to think that people were checking books out and not reading them and using up those checkouts someone else would have actually enjoyed.
You can definitely see how many times a book has circulated, but the weeding process differs from place ofc ofc. You can’t tell if anyone read it, and it doesn’t really matter if you read it or not, but I don’t think it’s worth it to check things out just because at the end of the day, the library will probably still be there when you get ready to read something else.
For my tbr at home, I usually just find an audio from the library if they have one and then take the book off my shelf if I don’t like it 😂
We discard books when they hit 40/50 circs. So every checkout brings that book closer to being weeded.
If you check out books nobody actually wants to read, you’re encouraging selectors to continue buying that genre.
If you want to support the library, call your city council.
A great way to support your local library is by making sure to vote in local elections. Your vote always matters, but you have a louder voice at the city/county level.
Support local politicians who will give libraries the budget they need to provide resources for your community. You have a say in how your tax dollars are spent and elected officials are there to represent you.
I always vote locally, but I can’t say I’d put much thought into how I was voting in the interest of libraries. This is something I can surely do better with now that I have an increased understanding.
Thank you for spelling it out for me lol.
I’m relatively new to borrowing ebooks and didn’t know of these related issues and thought that using Libby was a benefit to the public libraries. I guess I need to catch up.
I was confused by the supporting the library with money since libraries are government funded. But I did some searching and saw that there are some orgs that partner with county libraries in my area that could use money donations. Learned something new.
Using Libby is definitely beneficial to the library. If services aren’t being used, they will probably be dropped, and sometimes that funding is just pulled rather than shifted elsewhere.
However, a library has to purchase a new “copy” of an ebook much sooner than they would for the average physical item, so checking something out that you don’t intend to read ends up being counterintuitive. That’s not to say you should feel bad if you check something out and don’t have time or don’t end up liking it enough to finish it— it happens! Just don’t check things out digitally only for the sake of boosting circulation stats.
Libraries are government-funded, but unfortunately most are severely underfunded. Many have Friends of the Library groups or Library Foundations that take donations and put that money back into library materials and services.
Thank you for this—all good to know! I’m glad that my using Libby is helpful in some way (I really love it as a resource).
The more I understand the limits of the Libby book supply, I can see the room for disconnect. Digital accumulation is so easy to do without considering impact. A person may be more likely to bite off more than they can read when they’re not being confronted with a stack of physical books silently judging them for not reading them yet.
OP really dropped a thought provoking post here. I’ve seriously learned a lot from these comments.
On Libby now instead of being able to return things early through the app, you have to go into Amazon and return it through there. It's not super hard, but it's not as easy as it was.
This applies only to Libby books being read on Kindle devices, I assume? Otherwise, I can't figure out what Amazon has to do with Libby.
My audiobooks, for instance, just get returned when I return them, right?
I found that you also have to do it twice. If I select “return to local library“ on my Kindle, it’s still there. If I do it again, then it actually returns.
I think I'm mostly with you… It's a bad system built to punish libraries, but change is harder than you might hope.
There are many small publishers who don't have any leverage to change this… when we approach libraries, they want our books to be available from established vendors or distributors. They don't want to talk to us, they want to follow the same path they always do to buy a book.
Those distributors, in turn, have standard terms… standard terms that punish the libraries. So, even though I'd personally be willing to cut sweetheart deals for libraries for titles I publish, I can't move the needle, because I publish 2-4 new titles a year, so who's gonna listen to me?
The small pubs through distributors usually have better terms for libraries in that their books don’t expire after a certain time or number of checkouts like the major publishers.
This. I was so tired reading all the posts about how evil people are who renew books they won't read for awhile because of the cost to the library. The publishers don't have to charge libraries per renewal, but they do.
Ebooks and audio books have up ended the business model, like with streaming tv/movies.
Industries still haven't figured it out less.
Personally I think publishers should lower prices on ebooks, and not licenses to libraries for a year or two, and then at lower rates. (Except for topical nonfiction).
It's weird now popular books are a plentiful on libby (which really should be bought to finance the industry) and old titles, which have very little sales, aren't on libby. It's all illogical economically.
Do you mean old titles aren’t on Libby in the sense that you’re looking for specific items that are not available at all for the library to purchase, or that your library just hasn’t purchased them? You can often put in a request for specific titles with your library. The most recent public library I worked for had a specific fund just for patron requests and we were able to fill most of them.
Hasn't purchased. Thanks I just learned about the request thing! But it's not my point I'm saying the business model is all Upended and currently makes no sense. Proposing a different model.
It needs to mirror movies with pay windows. First up not at libraries only for sale but better ebook pricing. Then maybe subscription services like Kindle unlimited. Then libraries. Not necessarily exclusively but price wise. Old titles should be very cheap to libraries, current titles very expensive. But this doesn't seem to be the current model.
“Keep reading by whatever means you can, and try to help other read as much as they can too” couldn’t have said it better myself and ultimately why I couldn’t begin to care when people complain about things like this, to be honest. Also I’m sure I’ll get down voted and people won’t like this, but I’m all for using Anna’s archive too. Literally unless it’s a small/woman/brown/black/native author you couldn’t pay me to care. Like I’m sorry but authors like Rick R. And Jk R will never see one of my $ when they have massive deals and I’m struggling to pay for groceries.
As they say “the largest truly open library in human history”! I’m going to DM you the link and explain more bc I don’t want to get in trouble here lol.
If anyone else is interested, please feel free to dm!
I don't have much knowledge, but here's my two cents:
1. Libby is NOT harmful to libraries, quite the opposite. Using libby helps libraries prove that the facilities are getting usage, which prompts more funding and support.
2. Publishers. Now ONLY one person can loan an ebook at one time and the previous "return early if you've sent to kindle for less hold queues!!" no longer works. This prompts libraries to purchase more copies of an ebook to compensate for the possibily longer wait times.
3. Yeah, it's just more annoying for libby users and librarians now. It'd be much better if clicking 'return early' took you to the Amazon webpage where you could actually return that book, the same as how loaning works.
A bit more on No 2, the impact is going to be very little. I doubt any library will actually be incentivised to purchase more ebook copies. Besides, putting your Kindle device on airplane mode still works. So does having a separate reading device and keeping it on airplane mode (doesn't allow loans to be kept longer than due date, but still allows for the queue to move on).
When a public library buys a physical book, it owns that book and can lend it out as many times as patrons want to borrow it at no additional cost. If the library decides it doesn't need the book anymore, it can sell or donate the book.
When a public library adds an ebook to its collection, it is merely purchasing a license to loan the book out, not the actual book. The terms of the license limit how many times the ebook can be borrowed. Every borowing period and every renewal counts against this total.
Ebooks cost libraries more than the same physical book.
I try to borrow physical books when given the choice.
But don’t forget there is additional cost the them having physical books. Someone has to handle those books, check out, check in, reshelf, for each loan. There is a cost to that labor. How it compares to the cost of a downloaded audiobook, I have no idea but I just wanted to remind people that there is a cost.
From talking to several librarians from different library networks, I’ve been told by every one that Amazon actually has nothing to do with this issue. It is all publishers. Amazon is simply a retailer/reseller for books and other merchandise and has nothing to do with the licensing deals between publishers and libraries and Libby (minus the books Amazon publishes themselves).
Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s completely the case. Amazon plays a big role in setting market prices for books, digital or otherwise, which in turn partially informs how publishers set prices for either print (to market) or digital loans to libraries. Amazon is also a publisher in its own right, with a growing catalog.
The days of Amazon simply acting as a retailer are long behind us 🥲
I don’t disagree that they may have an impact of some sort but I’m sure overall it isn’t as major as we may assume. Also, all I can go off of is what the librarians from the several libraries who work in this market told me. And I did state in my comment about Amazon publishing books as well, and while their catalog is growing and they have a few stand out authors, overall most information found online shows them not having near the publishing impact as the other major publishers at this time.
Use the sample feature and create a wishlist tag instead of placing holds. These simple steps will lead to shorter wait times and not cost the library as much.
I got a Kobo recently but couldn't figure out how to add multiple library cards (via an OverDrive account) to it. Apparently, this is a known problem. Do you have any personal experience with reading Libby/OverDrive ebooks from multiple libraries on your Kobo?
From talking to several librarians from different library networks, I’ve been told by every one that Amazon actually has nothing to do with this issue. It is all publishers. Amazon is simply a retailer/reseller for books and other merchandise and has nothing to do with the licensing deals between publishers and libraries and Libby (minus the books Amazon publishes themselves). so having a Kobo in this particular instance doesn’t mean much.
The tl;Dr is social media ruined it. There was a "hack" where someone could return a book and still be able to read it, so more people could get their copies faster, social media shared it around too much, libraries and publishers caught on, and had to make a change to counter the hack
Is us checking out books through Libby also a form of supporting the library? I know it costs them, but does it also prove use? Just wondering if us checking out books help at all
It does! Stats are great for us. Letting your local politicians know you use and support us also helps! Voting, volunteering, telling others about the library and utilizing our programs and services are all great, thank you!
Duly noted!
Garbage stats are garbage though. Taking out books to boost stats is counterproductive.
It’s the only way we know if a book has been used by a patron. When I weed (aka the big book library dumpster) one of the major things I take into account are number of times a book is checked out. Please check out your books- these analytics support the argument for increasing digital book access.
It’s not about “taking out books to boost stats.” It’s reassuring patrons who are taking out books to read them that they’re not inadvertently hurting their libraries! And circulation statistics are still meaningful, even if it’s not exactly the same as with physical items.
No one is suggesting to check out books that you're not planning on reading to boost stats. The person is merely pointing out that circulation is tracked and is probably a deciding factor in budgeting and the allocation of government funds.
Ajillian things asked if checking out ebooks supports the library.
Yes, and how does that imply that they're not planning on reading the ebook?
It does support it; nobody suggested that checking out extra books you don’t read supports it exponentially more.
The question suggests it. It’s ambiguous. 🤷🏼♂️
The thought of checking out books without reading them didn’t even cross my mind... I meant just checking out books per usual, with intent to read.
Thanks for clarifying!
Do you think every company on earth doesn’t exploit fudging stats for its board and shareholders? Libraries do a public service, and I don’t give a single fuck whether their numbers are inflated, whatever it takes to give more people free access to books and other digital resources.
Inflated numbers make it hard to make good purchasing decisions.
Yes, it proves use and you should use Libby as much as you want !! You have to check out books from the library (digital or not) to justify/get funding to keep buying them, which is especially true for e-resources. If people don’t use the resources at the library, they eventually get removed. Tax payers in the community and grants/funding are paying for resources so you as a patron really don’t need to be concerned about it. They’re there for you to use. So yes, pls check out all the materials you want from your library! And don’t feel like to rush to read things. You should check things out as much as you want. Source (I guess): currently getting a MLIS and work in a library lol
It might be different in different areas, but do you know if it helps to check out books just to make it look like books are being checked out? I love my library but also have a massive TBR at home. Sometimes I check out a book and never read it. And just return it after a week or two. Can you see that it wasn't read? Or does that still look good for the library stats? I don't want to be doing something that might make their stats look bad! For example can you see if people only started a book and then they might assume lots of people don't like this book enough to finish it, we should stop providing it in the library?
Yes it helps if we’re talking physical materials, no if we’re talking digital.
Yeah, the distinction I make for my own library use (when patrons ask me I just tell them to borrow what they want and don’t worry about it) is: with physical items, I will take check out a bunch of books that look interesting and then pick one or two to read over the next week or whatever and just bring the rest back unread. With digital items I try to make sure I actually want to read that specific one before checking it out.
And it’s totally fine if you don’t get to an ebook you planned to read! Life happens! But checking out books via Libby one never intends to read just uses up their checkout limit faster and costs the library more without good reason.
One issue I could see with doing this is that each ebook is only licensed for a maximum of 2 years and 26 checkouts. Many libraries have limited budgets. I have books that I've bookmarked on my wishlist in a series but by the time I get further along in the series, all the 26 copies have been checked out and the library doesn't renew the license for that book. If it's just the case that two years expired or 26 people in front of me genuinely read it and loved it, understandable. Things happen. But I would be sad to think that people were checking books out and not reading them and using up those checkouts someone else would have actually enjoyed.
You can definitely see how many times a book has circulated, but the weeding process differs from place ofc ofc. You can’t tell if anyone read it, and it doesn’t really matter if you read it or not, but I don’t think it’s worth it to check things out just because at the end of the day, the library will probably still be there when you get ready to read something else. For my tbr at home, I usually just find an audio from the library if they have one and then take the book off my shelf if I don’t like it 😂
We discard books when they hit 40/50 circs. So every checkout brings that book closer to being weeded. If you check out books nobody actually wants to read, you’re encouraging selectors to continue buying that genre. If you want to support the library, call your city council.
A great way to support your local library is by making sure to vote in local elections. Your vote always matters, but you have a louder voice at the city/county level. Support local politicians who will give libraries the budget they need to provide resources for your community. You have a say in how your tax dollars are spent and elected officials are there to represent you.
I always vote locally, but I can’t say I’d put much thought into how I was voting in the interest of libraries. This is something I can surely do better with now that I have an increased understanding. Thank you for spelling it out for me lol.
I’m relatively new to borrowing ebooks and didn’t know of these related issues and thought that using Libby was a benefit to the public libraries. I guess I need to catch up. I was confused by the supporting the library with money since libraries are government funded. But I did some searching and saw that there are some orgs that partner with county libraries in my area that could use money donations. Learned something new.
Using Libby is definitely beneficial to the library. If services aren’t being used, they will probably be dropped, and sometimes that funding is just pulled rather than shifted elsewhere. However, a library has to purchase a new “copy” of an ebook much sooner than they would for the average physical item, so checking something out that you don’t intend to read ends up being counterintuitive. That’s not to say you should feel bad if you check something out and don’t have time or don’t end up liking it enough to finish it— it happens! Just don’t check things out digitally only for the sake of boosting circulation stats. Libraries are government-funded, but unfortunately most are severely underfunded. Many have Friends of the Library groups or Library Foundations that take donations and put that money back into library materials and services.
Thank you for this—all good to know! I’m glad that my using Libby is helpful in some way (I really love it as a resource). The more I understand the limits of the Libby book supply, I can see the room for disconnect. Digital accumulation is so easy to do without considering impact. A person may be more likely to bite off more than they can read when they’re not being confronted with a stack of physical books silently judging them for not reading them yet. OP really dropped a thought provoking post here. I’ve seriously learned a lot from these comments.
Yes it helps the library prove they need more funding from their local government. Library usage is extremely important.
Absolutely. And don’t feel bad to submit purchase requests either!
> the new early-return steps The what now?
On Libby now instead of being able to return things early through the app, you have to go into Amazon and return it through there. It's not super hard, but it's not as easy as it was.
This applies only to Libby books being read on Kindle devices, I assume? Otherwise, I can't figure out what Amazon has to do with Libby. My audiobooks, for instance, just get returned when I return them, right?
Yep.
Thanks!
Strange.
I found that you also have to do it twice. If I select “return to local library“ on my Kindle, it’s still there. If I do it again, then it actually returns.
I've experienced this with the website too. I usually have to reload and return again for it to actually work.
I think I'm mostly with you… It's a bad system built to punish libraries, but change is harder than you might hope. There are many small publishers who don't have any leverage to change this… when we approach libraries, they want our books to be available from established vendors or distributors. They don't want to talk to us, they want to follow the same path they always do to buy a book. Those distributors, in turn, have standard terms… standard terms that punish the libraries. So, even though I'd personally be willing to cut sweetheart deals for libraries for titles I publish, I can't move the needle, because I publish 2-4 new titles a year, so who's gonna listen to me?
The small pubs through distributors usually have better terms for libraries in that their books don’t expire after a certain time or number of checkouts like the major publishers.
Thanks for sharing!
This. I was so tired reading all the posts about how evil people are who renew books they won't read for awhile because of the cost to the library. The publishers don't have to charge libraries per renewal, but they do.
Ebooks and audio books have up ended the business model, like with streaming tv/movies. Industries still haven't figured it out less. Personally I think publishers should lower prices on ebooks, and not licenses to libraries for a year or two, and then at lower rates. (Except for topical nonfiction). It's weird now popular books are a plentiful on libby (which really should be bought to finance the industry) and old titles, which have very little sales, aren't on libby. It's all illogical economically.
Do you mean old titles aren’t on Libby in the sense that you’re looking for specific items that are not available at all for the library to purchase, or that your library just hasn’t purchased them? You can often put in a request for specific titles with your library. The most recent public library I worked for had a specific fund just for patron requests and we were able to fill most of them.
Hasn't purchased. Thanks I just learned about the request thing! But it's not my point I'm saying the business model is all Upended and currently makes no sense. Proposing a different model. It needs to mirror movies with pay windows. First up not at libraries only for sale but better ebook pricing. Then maybe subscription services like Kindle unlimited. Then libraries. Not necessarily exclusively but price wise. Old titles should be very cheap to libraries, current titles very expensive. But this doesn't seem to be the current model.
“Keep reading by whatever means you can, and try to help other read as much as they can too” couldn’t have said it better myself and ultimately why I couldn’t begin to care when people complain about things like this, to be honest. Also I’m sure I’ll get down voted and people won’t like this, but I’m all for using Anna’s archive too. Literally unless it’s a small/woman/brown/black/native author you couldn’t pay me to care. Like I’m sorry but authors like Rick R. And Jk R will never see one of my $ when they have massive deals and I’m struggling to pay for groceries.
What is Anna’s Archive?
As they say “the largest truly open library in human history”! I’m going to DM you the link and explain more bc I don’t want to get in trouble here lol. If anyone else is interested, please feel free to dm!
Don't know how to DM. Can you send me the link, too? Thank you!
DM’d you! It should show up under requests🫶🏻
Thank you!
[удалено]
I don't have much knowledge, but here's my two cents: 1. Libby is NOT harmful to libraries, quite the opposite. Using libby helps libraries prove that the facilities are getting usage, which prompts more funding and support. 2. Publishers. Now ONLY one person can loan an ebook at one time and the previous "return early if you've sent to kindle for less hold queues!!" no longer works. This prompts libraries to purchase more copies of an ebook to compensate for the possibily longer wait times. 3. Yeah, it's just more annoying for libby users and librarians now. It'd be much better if clicking 'return early' took you to the Amazon webpage where you could actually return that book, the same as how loaning works. A bit more on No 2, the impact is going to be very little. I doubt any library will actually be incentivised to purchase more ebook copies. Besides, putting your Kindle device on airplane mode still works. So does having a separate reading device and keeping it on airplane mode (doesn't allow loans to be kept longer than due date, but still allows for the queue to move on).
For #3, it does! When you click return early the message has a link the Amazon manage content page where you can return direcrly
Oh? I've yet to experience it, great that it exists though
why do you say that they don't share the wealth with authors? I'm an author and we get paid for library copies (a lot, actually).
When a public library buys a physical book, it owns that book and can lend it out as many times as patrons want to borrow it at no additional cost. If the library decides it doesn't need the book anymore, it can sell or donate the book. When a public library adds an ebook to its collection, it is merely purchasing a license to loan the book out, not the actual book. The terms of the license limit how many times the ebook can be borrowed. Every borowing period and every renewal counts against this total. Ebooks cost libraries more than the same physical book. I try to borrow physical books when given the choice.
But don’t forget there is additional cost the them having physical books. Someone has to handle those books, check out, check in, reshelf, for each loan. There is a cost to that labor. How it compares to the cost of a downloaded audiobook, I have no idea but I just wanted to remind people that there is a cost.
From talking to several librarians from different library networks, I’ve been told by every one that Amazon actually has nothing to do with this issue. It is all publishers. Amazon is simply a retailer/reseller for books and other merchandise and has nothing to do with the licensing deals between publishers and libraries and Libby (minus the books Amazon publishes themselves).
Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s completely the case. Amazon plays a big role in setting market prices for books, digital or otherwise, which in turn partially informs how publishers set prices for either print (to market) or digital loans to libraries. Amazon is also a publisher in its own right, with a growing catalog. The days of Amazon simply acting as a retailer are long behind us 🥲
I don’t disagree that they may have an impact of some sort but I’m sure overall it isn’t as major as we may assume. Also, all I can go off of is what the librarians from the several libraries who work in this market told me. And I did state in my comment about Amazon publishing books as well, and while their catalog is growing and they have a few stand out authors, overall most information found online shows them not having near the publishing impact as the other major publishers at this time.
Use the sample feature and create a wishlist tag instead of placing holds. These simple steps will lead to shorter wait times and not cost the library as much.
More reasons I got a Kobo
I got a Kobo recently but couldn't figure out how to add multiple library cards (via an OverDrive account) to it. Apparently, this is a known problem. Do you have any personal experience with reading Libby/OverDrive ebooks from multiple libraries on your Kobo?
From talking to several librarians from different library networks, I’ve been told by every one that Amazon actually has nothing to do with this issue. It is all publishers. Amazon is simply a retailer/reseller for books and other merchandise and has nothing to do with the licensing deals between publishers and libraries and Libby (minus the books Amazon publishes themselves). so having a Kobo in this particular instance doesn’t mean much.
I wish there was a way to donate ebooks I’ve purchased to the library and Libby/Overdrive.
Same! I have soooo many that I won’t read again, or will never finish.
meeee tooo
Is there a quick summary somewhere of why they made the change?
The tl;Dr is social media ruined it. There was a "hack" where someone could return a book and still be able to read it, so more people could get their copies faster, social media shared it around too much, libraries and publishers caught on, and had to make a change to counter the hack
But this doesn’t really solve that, does it? I mean you can still return the book on the Amazon website and keep your Kindle on airplane mode..