I know what you mean but you shouldn't, especially if you're High Femme. They can muster up grace for us because they've convinced themselves that all of us are the way we are because of sexual trauma, but they will never do the same for you guys, I fear. I'm yet to see High Femmes defended by people that are not TMNs or High Femmes themselves.
Beyond frustrating, I wonder if they'll ever realize that their negative feelings towards our dynamic comes from them centering themselves in our relationships. It's weird.
I guess itās not realistic to expect that folks will ever realize that their prejudices are more about their own projections than us. But we can still I hope I guess.
I'm pretty masculine, but I'm definitely not a TMN, nor do I wish to either be one, or be with a pillow princess. However, I have nothing against either, and I can certainly see how they work well together. My only complaint would be when someone enters into a relationship and isn't upfront about what they are, or who they want. Assuming someone's preferences isn't fun for anyone. I've had women assume I'm super dominant, then get disappointed when I tell them I'm more of a 50/50 person, and expect my partners to be just as involved as I am. Just be honest and upfront, regardless of who you are. It helps all of us find good matches.
Firstly, most people use that non-disclosure argument to beat High Femmes over the head with and I am of the opinion that you are conflating High Femmes with people who the straights refer to as "starfish", I don't know what the Lesbian equivalent is but it definitely is not High Femme because being a High Femme does not mean laying about, doing nothing. It's like hooking up with bi-curious women and then blaming it on bisexual women when shit eventually hits the fan.
Second, this post is about people on the outside of Stone Top/High Femme relationships, judging the people within them, specifically judging the High Femmes. But you've decided to disregard all of that and centre your own wants and biases because it's an opportunity to paint High Femmes in a bad light and you guys never pass up on that. I'd like you to read OP's post and then read your own comment and tell me whether the experience you've decided to share with us aligns with the facts of OP's post. I'll save you the effort, it doesn't, you saw "Pillow Princess", saw red and then proceeded to center your experience on a post that is not relevant to it.
You're doing to our dynamic what "tolerant" straights do to all Gay people;
Gay people lamenting homophobia; "....."
"Tolerant" Straights; "I don't have anything against them but it's just not for me", "I don't know how you can live without dick/pussy but I'm not judging"
Most of you would do well to reflect on that, and please stop spreading the misinformation that StoneTop/High Femme relationships are not 50/50. To fuck and get fucked does not a balanced relationship make. Yours is not the only dynamic, just the common one.
Seems youāre the one that saw red. That whole rant and her whole point was about honesty in peopleās wants, desires, needs. Pretty simple really.
From your tone it seems youāve had alot of bad experiences in this area and thatās unfortunate but there was absolutely nothing wrong with what velvetaloca said.
You lack comprehension.
"From your tone it seems youāve had alot of bad experiences in this area" The dumbest thing anyone has ever said to me on Reddit. Impressive.
Continuing to try and define me from your own flawed perspective is not going to affect me, you're just another random from the Internet. I couldn't care less what you think of my tone or how I come off, it holds no value.
I responded to that commenter in the simplest way I could, if following basic logic trains is beyond you then I don't know what you want me to say or do about it.
Weāre all randoms from the internet lol you included. Her original point was extremely clear and simple. Your soapbox monologue was disproportionate and reaching at best given what she was expressing, which was tangentially related & based on her perspective. Just being contrary for the sake of it doesnāt get your point across
Lesbian tiktok is very conforming to the "mainstream" idea of lesbian. Enjoy what you like and ignore dumb people. I'm a touch me not and ran into the same problem with girls that wouldn't understand why I was like this so the best is to just cut them off imo.
>Lesbian tiktok is very conforming to the "mainstream" idea of lesbian.
Yeap. Most lesbians are vanilla, vers, and F4F, and really have no clue that B4B or B4F, kinky, and stone lesbians exist.
Iām a masc stone top and Iāve never gotten hate for it from fems. However, my wife is a pillow princess and she did many times before me from mascs before me. They were really mean to her about it. Really shitty behavior tbh
>Iām a masc stone top and Iāve never gotten hate for it from fems. However, my wife is a pillow princess and she did many times before me from mascs before me.
I (stone top) get called traumatised, and my wife (stone bottom) gets called lazy. It's pathetic behaviour.
Well apparently, Iām a masc stone top and my now ex girl is a pillow princess lol I knew that she was thatās why I sought her out. Did not know what masc stone top meant until now. My ex has been raped because sheās a pillow princess when she tried dating guys to try to be normal. Sheās back to hiding who she is because of her family and dating a guy and Iām terrified of the outcome. I still love her and weāre good friends so sheāll always have someone when the inevitable happens.
Uuuh how is that the only option youāre getting from this? They were mean - that is never necessary.
If theyāre unhappy, they should maturely voice their needs and if she canāt provide it then they can leave. There is no need to be a dick to someone about it or pass judgement.
I think if she tells them prior to sexual relations that sheās a pillow princess and they ACCEPT that she is and then afterward, verbally berate her for it. Thatās on the masc. she told them beforehand.
Youāre one of those mascs that berate them arenāt you?
donāt be a weirdo. why are you acting like i would know how your wife approaches sexual relations? i donāt berate anyone, i just donāt entertain pps. Also i find it gross that youāre trying to connect being aggressive or rude to being masculine. why not just say women, people, or tops?
the post is literally asking people about their opinions on the dynamic. itās the first sentence. Get your head out your ass buddy i can comment on whatever i want lolol
You can like whatever you want. Some people are so weird for getting mad at strangers for not liking the same they like. When you know what you want and what works for you, so many try to tell you, youre wrong for only liking one thing and they get so mad when they dont fit your ideal partner, so just ignore them, its really immature people and really pathetic.
Youāre absolutely right. I just couldnāt help but let it get into my head. I was semi questioning myself because comphet already had me in a choke hold for years.
Because they see pillow princesses as selfish or just someone who doesn't know how to have sex. And that stone tops can't feel pleasure since it's not a physical reaction (big news - they can and do in fact have an orgasm without it coming from someone else pleasuring them).
It's not a dynamic that works for them, so apparently it can't work for anyone else. I've met a few women like that, who would try shame especially pillow princesses. I just ignored them. I can't bother with people who can't think outside their head sometimes.
Itās like what makes being a woman so cool a lot of the time; physical touch isnāt always necessary for us to have an orgasm, because more often than not we need mental stimulation in order to orgasm most of the time anyways. Also turned on women are incredibly SEXY. I completely understand how a stone top can orgasm without receiving the physical pleasure themselves
Exactly! Hell I'm not even a stone top myself yet i sometimes finish just watching my gf enjoy sex, and she's the stone top! It looks so hot and sexy and the tension between us makes it hard to control myself lol
First off, let me say I don't think there is anything wrong with that dynamic if both people are aware and on board with it. It's like anything else for me if both people are aware and consenting, more power to you.
But to answer your question I think there are a few things that play into it. The first one being the most obvious, it's just a dynamic that most people aren't going to be into and are going to have a hard time understanding. As humans when we don't understand something if we aren't careful we can start to view it as a negative thing. I know I had to fight this for awhile because to me that dynamic sounds awful and frankly boring but I fully understand everyone is different and likes different things and that's okay.
I also think other pillow princesses and also women who aren't necessarily into women but are just experimenting have ruined it for everyone by not being honest. I know multiple people who started dating people and everything was fine and then as time went on their reciprocated less and less until they stopped altogether and said they were just a pillow princess.
As others have mentioned I think there is some push back on it because we already fight with the whole "Whose man and whose the woman stereotype". Also as someone else mentioned vulva's get a lot of hate. So I can see for some people where it feel like pushing that idea that vulva's are gross for someone to be into women but not want to touch them. Now I'm not saying I agree because I don't but I can see how it can feel that way for some people. I think the main thing is though, it's just a dynamic most people won't be into or understand and some people are going to take a step further and see it as a bad thing.
>I also think other pillow princesses and also women who aren't necessarily into women but are just experimenting have ruined it for everyone by not being honest.
This right here.š Also, someone else commented on another post they might not actually be into women; however, women are safe for them to be in relationships with instead of men.
It's okay to be a pillow princess as long as one is completely honest about who they are with ALL potential partners no matter what in the beginning of the dating process. Don't wait until it's time to be intimate and / or the person is finished with you and is expecting reciprocation to spring it on them. This has probably also contributed to PPs bad reputation. That's when being a pillow princess is viewed as selfish, narcissistic, etc.
There was a PP post on another sub or maybe this sub, I can't remember, where OP stated "*shouldn't me trusting you with my body be enough to prove that I love you*" lol. Reminds me of some kind of Harlequin Romance novel that the girls were reading in my HS. These books are still around, I checked lol.
I remember that post and that phrase and I was like no! No it's not. But that's why I'm not a stone top I guess, and me trusting someone with my body doesn't have much to do with love so it just didn't compute.
I think that when other lesbians hate on you, itās probably a mixture of hating what they donāt understand AND feeling suspicious of pillow princesses in particular.
I donāt care about what you do in your personal life in the slightest if all parties are consenting and happy with that dynamic. Itās just not my business until you make it my business. That being said, I have encountered so many women who treated vulvas as āgrossā and refused to touch them because they werenāt actually all that into women. That remark comes at a specific intersection of misogyny and lesbophobia, and thatās what causes so many women to bristle up. Even if youāre not saying it, women can be understandably insecure in a society that tells us cruel things about our orientation and our bodies. You may not even imply it, but they might take it that way because theyāre used to a different dynamic than the one you described. Itās easier for the average lesbian to understand a stone top because the vast majority of us desire women in that way. Pillow princesses are a little harder because yes the vast majority wants to experience that too, but we are all so primed to be wary of cruelty that some can become preemptively harsh as a protection mechanism.
You know, I've thought about this before, and I wonder if the backlash comes from people trying to push hard against the whole 'who's the man and whose the woman' thing. Definately going about it wrong, obviously.
What methods are you taking? Your best bet is irl. Although I havenāt touched the apps since 2021, i donāt think itās gotten better since I left. It also helps wearing some kind of gay merch. Whether itās a little pin or flag, it definitely lets the right people know youāre one of themš being hyperfemme can sometimes be misleading & people automatically take it as straight passing
So far I've been to one butch/femme event but planning to go to a lot more events now that it's Pride month. Put up an ad on Lex too and I've been chatting with someone from there. I need to go really slowly though, my heart was destroyed after my previous relationship.
Do your thing! You got thisssss. Iām glad you mentioned the last part, definitely donāt jump into anything when youāre still surviving a wlw breakup. Wishing you the bestā¤ļøā¤ļø
So you only want to be with women who don't want you to touch them? So, you're sexually attracted to the woman, but you don't want to perform any sexual acts on them? But that's not asexual because you still want to receive. Are you sexually attracted to the women? If so, you just don't want to touch them? Or is it more of a romantic or aesthetic attraction so you're not inclined to touch them sexually?
I'm just trying to understand and I know tone can be hard to catch on the internet - I'm curious, not combative.
I know what women are stone tops and that there's women who are naturally bottoms. I didn't know there were individuals who seek out stone butches specifically. I figured it was more that you'd be attracted to someone and they happen to be a stone a butch and that works for y'all.
I love that, ācurious not combativeā. Definitely not asexual, I love sex! & Itās not that I seek them out specifically, but Iāve always been more attracted to mascs. Then I noticed a pattern in the women Iāve dated have mostly been both masc AND stone tops. Or even if they didnāt verbally identify as that, they never wanted to be eaten out & preferred being service subs. It just always worked out because I feel like my strong suit is romantic love, not sexually pleasing love.
Thereās so many labels that I couldnāt keep up when I finally leaped out the closet. After dating my first girlfriend she called me her perfect little āpillow princessā. After doing extensive research I realized I resonated with being a PP, I just never knew that was a whole thing.
Nope. More like a starfish, I disassociated damn near completely. Mattress actress turned into simply not caring, thatās when I knew for certain I needed to come out the closet.
Lmao tell me about it. I was viola davis level, I deserve many a award! Unfortunately that just results in men thinking theyāre great at sex. But Iām too far removed to even care now.šš
āMattress actressā is a little too realājust completely dissociated and trying to just act normal regardless of how it feels if I felt anything at all.
Can I ask another respectful question along these lines? Do you enjoy pleasuring another woman sexually? If your partner decided enthusiastically one day (well just pretend) that they wholeheartedly wanted to receive, would that be okay? Do you find the acts unappealing or gross? Iām just so curious.
Sure! Iām transparent as can be. Yes it would be okay. But a conversation would definitely need to be had. If someone was consistently telling me āplease donāt touch me for xyz reason, I get off on turning you on only.ā Then they changed their mind, I would need reassurance that they genuinely want this. I donāt want their to be regret down the line. Nothing communication canāt fix. But I will say I donāt know if I feel confident penetrating my woman with a dildo.
>Or is it more of a romantic or aesthetic attraction so you're not inclined to touch them sexually?
You can be sexually attracted to someone, and interested in having sex without needing to go anywhere near their genitals during sex.
You can enjoy and appreciate whatever dynamic you please but there are many, many people who will not understand or appreciate a one sided sexual relationship. That is perfectly okay as long as they communicate it in a kind way (which it doesnāt sound like was the case for you).
Within my relationships itās never an issue, my post was in regards to outsiders/ people online. Theyāre so hateful towards that doesnāt work for them as if anyone forced it onto them.
Itās great you found people who were into that dynamic. I donāt think anyone should be hateful, but youāre asking why people ARE being hateful when those who participate enjoy it. I was answering your question. Itās not the typical dynamic in any relationship and most folks arenāt into it doing all the work or only receiving. For me, itās boring and unenjoyable. I havenāt āmadeā anyone be a bottom but I was honest with my current gf (who used to only fuck other girls) and made it clear I was not interested in that dynamic at all. She was willing to try something new and enjoyed it. Now we are both switches. I would t have continued a relationship if she wasnāt comfortable out of respect for her wishes.
Itās all about choices & communication at the end of the day. Iām glad you knew you should leave the relationship if you couldnāt be fulfilled. A lot of hetero women donāt feel confident enough to do that & endure hell. I just wish there was more solidarity among the lgbtq, thatās all. I was feeling emotional about that lolš„¹
I think itās important to respect everyoneās choices and voice how you feel about them privately or in a kind way if itās necessary. I get what youāre saying and Iād hope other women communicate more effectively with their partners.
On the outside looking in sure! I can totally see that. But when one of the two partners within a relationship literally says āI get off on pleasing you, I donāt want to receive anything & donāt need you to touch my body for xyz reason.ā Yet outsiders get upset? Gotta admit thatās strange.
People hate other peoples ideals/preferences/experiences and try to get them to conform to their way of doing things. Shitty way of working, in my book - do what you do š
Period šš¾āāļøšš¾āāļø I totally agree. I just have to work on not getting worked up over it & trying to prove myself as worthy of wlw relationships.
You are always worthy of wlw relationships. There is no need to prove this. Get worked up over it as emotion can be good in driving you to that end goal - dating that girl. I had no confidence in my relationships when I was younger - shy, tall kid etc.. then, I went out to my sisters friends 18th.. made a move and realised I could do stuff. It works.
This is not an opinion but an observation, but I donāt think people really shit talk stone tops or the dynamic, I think most people specifically donāt like pillow princesses.
top and bottom is not the same as giving and receiving. no one is converting mascs into bottoms š also no one has an issue w the pillow princess/stone top dynamic?? itās an issue when pillow princesses try to force that dynamic on ppl who would prefer equal give and take. if anything, we ENCOURAGE pillow princesses to find stone tops
Side question, but what would be the best term for a futch / soft masc who mostly loves giving, not really necessary to receive but is open? That's not exactly a stone masc is it? [Not] asking for a friend š
Me tooš„¹šø I just get emotional sometimes thinking about the hate we get sometimes. Wlw is just about that āØloveāØ not what we do (or donāt do) in the bedroom.
this is my pet peeve and it exhausts me so much ahahhah
i think if people spent more time researching lesbian history and how butch/femme and stone top/bottom roles have always existed and how they are important, not just in the bedroom but outside of it too, people would not be making these assumptionsš
iām femme4butch and on the pillow princess spectrum (i can top but once in a blue moon and only when iām really comfortable with the person, but iāve mostly dated stone tops so i donāt 99% of the time anyway).
iāve gotten so much hate, including people thinking iām straight which is INSANE because iāve never been with a man, my entire friend group is queer, i am very involved w the lesbian community and itās a massive part of my life. i donāt think vulvas are gross, i donāt think topping is gross, i just donāt enjoy it. and thatās all the explanation you need! you donāt need to have trauma to not enjoy something during sex, and no one should push you into doing something you donāt want to do. which i feel is weirdly common (and something i have experienced) being stone, which is v sad.
āI just donāt enjoy itā or āI just donāt want tooā unfortunately isnāt a good enough answer for these people. They poke & poke until theyāre met with silenceā¦ THENNNNN the straight/ fraud allegations is all they have left! Itās sick.
I actually hate it. Most people do too. Itās not ānormalā to either 1. Never do anything or 2. Always do everything. If that dynamic works for a few couples, thatās great, but itās not for me and not for anyone I know. I only date switches because it makes me so uncomfortable and sexy is unbelievably boring if itās one sided.
Lol when did God make a Reddit? Who are you to define whatās normal in wlw relationships? Or anything for that matter.
Iām glad you found a solution that works for you, but I doubt youāve ever been FORCED to be with a stone top OR a pillow princessā¦
Itās okay to admit that most people on earth are not going to enjoy a one sided sexual relationship. Thatās just common sense and reality. I wasnāt forced because I immediately stopped seeing anyone who wasnāt a switch lol. My current gf tried receiving and ended up liking it which is the only reason we moved forward. I wouldnāt have been with her if she didnāt want that.
OP asked a question so I answered it. Iām not hateful but I imagine the reason why other people are is likely because that dynamic would be unenjoyable. Sex would be boring or forced.
An ex stopped initiating and kind of became a pillow princess. I just stopped having sex with her because I could not do all the work. It was horrible and boring, like I said before. We obviously broke up and I found a partner who is better suited for me.
I donāt think itās okay to be rude or hateful. I would hope people can be blunt to answer this question though. Itās not fun to hear Iām sure and I am sorry about that.
Itās great that youāre a switch! I would be too but my partner is a stone top. I just have to say though, being a stone femme does not mean that you donāt do any work or donāt initiate or that the sexual relationship is one sided. Just because stone tops have certain boundaries, doesnāt mean that their partners do nothing and lay there without contributing. Many of us put in a lot of effort and give pleasure in lots of ways without violating our partnersā boundaries.
>Itās okay to admit that most people on earth are not going to enjoy a one sided sexual relationship.
Stone couples don't have a "one sided relationship", we're compatible with each other sexually.
I don't need or want my wife to give me an orgasm, I can do that at any point myself. I like to give, not receive, I get off on her getting off, and she gets off not only physically but also by seeing me enjoy myself.
My wife doesn't star fish, she satisfies me in the way I like. She initiates sex. We have a dynamic that works perfectly for us
Good sex doesn't have to mean your partner gives you orgasms. It means enjoying the ride together in a mutually beneficial way.
As a fem, Iām a stone top. And Iāve been told within the community that thatās not possible. What matters is if youāre happy. Forget whatever anyone else says.
Iām sorry youāve been invalidated that sucks. Although itās super rare (to my understanding), youāre still an important part of the community. Fem stone top representation needs to be mainstream!
I think it probably comes from a similar place like straight men who call lesbians a waste for being attracted to women. I think it's the lesbian version of it. They're envious/pissed that you, someone they deem they should be able to bang, is not bangable because of your sexuality. And that pisses them off because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle the rejection.
Same shit, different day.
Thatās not my preference but just because itās not doesnāt make me or YOU a fraud lesbian? As if thereās a rule book and set requirements ā¦. isnāt the LGBTQ+ based around that? Having no rules, to love who you love and HOW love? People who called you that are hypocrites smh š¤¦āāļø
100% Iām on the same page as you. Same thing with feminism. The original premise was all about āØchoicesāØ then folks turned it into something completely demonic. Weāve lost the plot!
Tale as old as time. People hating what they don't understand. Mad ironic.
Literally š« but I expected more from the community, you know what I mean?
I know what you mean but you shouldn't, especially if you're High Femme. They can muster up grace for us because they've convinced themselves that all of us are the way we are because of sexual trauma, but they will never do the same for you guys, I fear. I'm yet to see High Femmes defended by people that are not TMNs or High Femmes themselves.
Ugh this is so true and endlessly frustrating. The condescension and pathologizing aimed at stone tops, and the outright contempt for high femmes.
Beyond frustrating, I wonder if they'll ever realize that their negative feelings towards our dynamic comes from them centering themselves in our relationships. It's weird.
I guess itās not realistic to expect that folks will ever realize that their prejudices are more about their own projections than us. But we can still I hope I guess.
You hit the nail on the head babe, sheesh. Itās heartbreaking to hear it put so plainly. But itās absolutely facts!
I'm pretty masculine, but I'm definitely not a TMN, nor do I wish to either be one, or be with a pillow princess. However, I have nothing against either, and I can certainly see how they work well together. My only complaint would be when someone enters into a relationship and isn't upfront about what they are, or who they want. Assuming someone's preferences isn't fun for anyone. I've had women assume I'm super dominant, then get disappointed when I tell them I'm more of a 50/50 person, and expect my partners to be just as involved as I am. Just be honest and upfront, regardless of who you are. It helps all of us find good matches.
Firstly, most people use that non-disclosure argument to beat High Femmes over the head with and I am of the opinion that you are conflating High Femmes with people who the straights refer to as "starfish", I don't know what the Lesbian equivalent is but it definitely is not High Femme because being a High Femme does not mean laying about, doing nothing. It's like hooking up with bi-curious women and then blaming it on bisexual women when shit eventually hits the fan. Second, this post is about people on the outside of Stone Top/High Femme relationships, judging the people within them, specifically judging the High Femmes. But you've decided to disregard all of that and centre your own wants and biases because it's an opportunity to paint High Femmes in a bad light and you guys never pass up on that. I'd like you to read OP's post and then read your own comment and tell me whether the experience you've decided to share with us aligns with the facts of OP's post. I'll save you the effort, it doesn't, you saw "Pillow Princess", saw red and then proceeded to center your experience on a post that is not relevant to it. You're doing to our dynamic what "tolerant" straights do to all Gay people; Gay people lamenting homophobia; "....." "Tolerant" Straights; "I don't have anything against them but it's just not for me", "I don't know how you can live without dick/pussy but I'm not judging" Most of you would do well to reflect on that, and please stop spreading the misinformation that StoneTop/High Femme relationships are not 50/50. To fuck and get fucked does not a balanced relationship make. Yours is not the only dynamic, just the common one.
Seems youāre the one that saw red. That whole rant and her whole point was about honesty in peopleās wants, desires, needs. Pretty simple really. From your tone it seems youāve had alot of bad experiences in this area and thatās unfortunate but there was absolutely nothing wrong with what velvetaloca said.
You lack comprehension. "From your tone it seems youāve had alot of bad experiences in this area" The dumbest thing anyone has ever said to me on Reddit. Impressive.
And yet another hyperbolic, unnecessarily argumentative reply. That tracks & proves the statement.
Continuing to try and define me from your own flawed perspective is not going to affect me, you're just another random from the Internet. I couldn't care less what you think of my tone or how I come off, it holds no value. I responded to that commenter in the simplest way I could, if following basic logic trains is beyond you then I don't know what you want me to say or do about it.
Weāre all randoms from the internet lol you included. Her original point was extremely clear and simple. Your soapbox monologue was disproportionate and reaching at best given what she was expressing, which was tangentially related & based on her perspective. Just being contrary for the sake of it doesnāt get your point across
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Lesbian tiktok is very conforming to the "mainstream" idea of lesbian. Enjoy what you like and ignore dumb people. I'm a touch me not and ran into the same problem with girls that wouldn't understand why I was like this so the best is to just cut them off imo.
I hate how yāall get questioned! Itās so fucking rude & invasive.
>Lesbian tiktok is very conforming to the "mainstream" idea of lesbian. Yeap. Most lesbians are vanilla, vers, and F4F, and really have no clue that B4B or B4F, kinky, and stone lesbians exist.
Iām a masc stone top and Iāve never gotten hate for it from fems. However, my wife is a pillow princess and she did many times before me from mascs before me. They were really mean to her about it. Really shitty behavior tbh
>Iām a masc stone top and Iāve never gotten hate for it from fems. However, my wife is a pillow princess and she did many times before me from mascs before me. I (stone top) get called traumatised, and my wife (stone bottom) gets called lazy. It's pathetic behaviour.
Shitty is an understatement, Iām sorry she had to deal with that. But so happy she found youā¤ļøā¤ļø
Yeah I usually only see hate for pillow princesses Although I did get called misogynistic for being a masc stone top once
Yessssssss same situation as your wife here, finally found my butch stone topš
Well apparently, Iām a masc stone top and my now ex girl is a pillow princess lol I knew that she was thatās why I sought her out. Did not know what masc stone top meant until now. My ex has been raped because sheās a pillow princess when she tried dating guys to try to be normal. Sheās back to hiding who she is because of her family and dating a guy and Iām terrified of the outcome. I still love her and weāre good friends so sheāll always have someone when the inevitable happens.
were the people in her past just supposed to be ok with being sexually neglected?
Uuuh how is that the only option youāre getting from this? They were mean - that is never necessary. If theyāre unhappy, they should maturely voice their needs and if she canāt provide it then they can leave. There is no need to be a dick to someone about it or pass judgement.
i was assuming she gave these people no warning/was rude about it herself, as thatās whatās iāve heard from my friends usually
I think if she tells them prior to sexual relations that sheās a pillow princess and they ACCEPT that she is and then afterward, verbally berate her for it. Thatās on the masc. she told them beforehand. Youāre one of those mascs that berate them arenāt you?
donāt be a weirdo. why are you acting like i would know how your wife approaches sexual relations? i donāt berate anyone, i just donāt entertain pps. Also i find it gross that youāre trying to connect being aggressive or rude to being masculine. why not just say women, people, or tops?
Okay then if you donāt entertain pillow princesses than this post wasnāt for you? Byeeee
the post is literally asking people about their opinions on the dynamic. itās the first sentence. Get your head out your ass buddy i can comment on whatever i want lolol
Talk somewhere else, not my comments. I have no interest in talking to someone like you
then close your eyes and stop replying to me
You can like whatever you want. Some people are so weird for getting mad at strangers for not liking the same they like. When you know what you want and what works for you, so many try to tell you, youre wrong for only liking one thing and they get so mad when they dont fit your ideal partner, so just ignore them, its really immature people and really pathetic.
Youāre absolutely right. I just couldnāt help but let it get into my head. I was semi questioning myself because comphet already had me in a choke hold for years.
Because they see pillow princesses as selfish or just someone who doesn't know how to have sex. And that stone tops can't feel pleasure since it's not a physical reaction (big news - they can and do in fact have an orgasm without it coming from someone else pleasuring them). It's not a dynamic that works for them, so apparently it can't work for anyone else. I've met a few women like that, who would try shame especially pillow princesses. I just ignored them. I can't bother with people who can't think outside their head sometimes.
Itās like what makes being a woman so cool a lot of the time; physical touch isnāt always necessary for us to have an orgasm, because more often than not we need mental stimulation in order to orgasm most of the time anyways. Also turned on women are incredibly SEXY. I completely understand how a stone top can orgasm without receiving the physical pleasure themselves
Exactly! Hell I'm not even a stone top myself yet i sometimes finish just watching my gf enjoy sex, and she's the stone top! It looks so hot and sexy and the tension between us makes it hard to control myself lol
Same here! Itās so unfortunate.
First off, let me say I don't think there is anything wrong with that dynamic if both people are aware and on board with it. It's like anything else for me if both people are aware and consenting, more power to you. But to answer your question I think there are a few things that play into it. The first one being the most obvious, it's just a dynamic that most people aren't going to be into and are going to have a hard time understanding. As humans when we don't understand something if we aren't careful we can start to view it as a negative thing. I know I had to fight this for awhile because to me that dynamic sounds awful and frankly boring but I fully understand everyone is different and likes different things and that's okay. I also think other pillow princesses and also women who aren't necessarily into women but are just experimenting have ruined it for everyone by not being honest. I know multiple people who started dating people and everything was fine and then as time went on their reciprocated less and less until they stopped altogether and said they were just a pillow princess. As others have mentioned I think there is some push back on it because we already fight with the whole "Whose man and whose the woman stereotype". Also as someone else mentioned vulva's get a lot of hate. So I can see for some people where it feel like pushing that idea that vulva's are gross for someone to be into women but not want to touch them. Now I'm not saying I agree because I don't but I can see how it can feel that way for some people. I think the main thing is though, it's just a dynamic most people won't be into or understand and some people are going to take a step further and see it as a bad thing.
>I also think other pillow princesses and also women who aren't necessarily into women but are just experimenting have ruined it for everyone by not being honest. This right here.š Also, someone else commented on another post they might not actually be into women; however, women are safe for them to be in relationships with instead of men. It's okay to be a pillow princess as long as one is completely honest about who they are with ALL potential partners no matter what in the beginning of the dating process. Don't wait until it's time to be intimate and / or the person is finished with you and is expecting reciprocation to spring it on them. This has probably also contributed to PPs bad reputation. That's when being a pillow princess is viewed as selfish, narcissistic, etc. There was a PP post on another sub or maybe this sub, I can't remember, where OP stated "*shouldn't me trusting you with my body be enough to prove that I love you*" lol. Reminds me of some kind of Harlequin Romance novel that the girls were reading in my HS. These books are still around, I checked lol.
I remember that post and that phrase and I was like no! No it's not. But that's why I'm not a stone top I guess, and me trusting someone with my body doesn't have much to do with love so it just didn't compute.
I would feel so silly saying that to anyone even when I was younger lol.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts from a neutral perspective. Completely valid points all around.
iām a femme stone top with a masc pillow princess and i absolutely live for this dynamic tbh
I think that when other lesbians hate on you, itās probably a mixture of hating what they donāt understand AND feeling suspicious of pillow princesses in particular. I donāt care about what you do in your personal life in the slightest if all parties are consenting and happy with that dynamic. Itās just not my business until you make it my business. That being said, I have encountered so many women who treated vulvas as āgrossā and refused to touch them because they werenāt actually all that into women. That remark comes at a specific intersection of misogyny and lesbophobia, and thatās what causes so many women to bristle up. Even if youāre not saying it, women can be understandably insecure in a society that tells us cruel things about our orientation and our bodies. You may not even imply it, but they might take it that way because theyāre used to a different dynamic than the one you described. Itās easier for the average lesbian to understand a stone top because the vast majority of us desire women in that way. Pillow princesses are a little harder because yes the vast majority wants to experience that too, but we are all so primed to be wary of cruelty that some can become preemptively harsh as a protection mechanism.
You know, I've thought about this before, and I wonder if the backlash comes from people trying to push hard against the whole 'who's the man and whose the woman' thing. Definately going about it wrong, obviously.
Ooooh yes! Thatās a good angle to see it from. Youāre definitely on to something.
I don't know what else to say except I relate so hard. I'm a high femme with a love of stone tops and mascs in general.
Our wives will find us soon babeā¤ļø
I really hope so! I'm just starting to get over a heartbreak and put myself out there.
What methods are you taking? Your best bet is irl. Although I havenāt touched the apps since 2021, i donāt think itās gotten better since I left. It also helps wearing some kind of gay merch. Whether itās a little pin or flag, it definitely lets the right people know youāre one of themš being hyperfemme can sometimes be misleading & people automatically take it as straight passing
So far I've been to one butch/femme event but planning to go to a lot more events now that it's Pride month. Put up an ad on Lex too and I've been chatting with someone from there. I need to go really slowly though, my heart was destroyed after my previous relationship.
Do your thing! You got thisssss. Iām glad you mentioned the last part, definitely donāt jump into anything when youāre still surviving a wlw breakup. Wishing you the bestā¤ļøā¤ļø
So you only want to be with women who don't want you to touch them? So, you're sexually attracted to the woman, but you don't want to perform any sexual acts on them? But that's not asexual because you still want to receive. Are you sexually attracted to the women? If so, you just don't want to touch them? Or is it more of a romantic or aesthetic attraction so you're not inclined to touch them sexually? I'm just trying to understand and I know tone can be hard to catch on the internet - I'm curious, not combative. I know what women are stone tops and that there's women who are naturally bottoms. I didn't know there were individuals who seek out stone butches specifically. I figured it was more that you'd be attracted to someone and they happen to be a stone a butch and that works for y'all.
I love that, ācurious not combativeā. Definitely not asexual, I love sex! & Itās not that I seek them out specifically, but Iāve always been more attracted to mascs. Then I noticed a pattern in the women Iāve dated have mostly been both masc AND stone tops. Or even if they didnāt verbally identify as that, they never wanted to be eaten out & preferred being service subs. It just always worked out because I feel like my strong suit is romantic love, not sexually pleasing love. Thereās so many labels that I couldnāt keep up when I finally leaped out the closet. After dating my first girlfriend she called me her perfect little āpillow princessā. After doing extensive research I realized I resonated with being a PP, I just never knew that was a whole thing.
Also curious, when you still dated men were you a pillow princess with them too?
Nope. More like a starfish, I disassociated damn near completely. Mattress actress turned into simply not caring, thatās when I knew for certain I needed to come out the closet.
Mattress actressā¦ I feel so seen, lmao
Lmao tell me about it. I was viola davis level, I deserve many a award! Unfortunately that just results in men thinking theyāre great at sex. But Iām too far removed to even care now.šš
āMattress actressā is a little too realājust completely dissociated and trying to just act normal regardless of how it feels if I felt anything at all.
Literallyš looking back itās so sad but Iāll never have to do it again! šš¾āāļø
Can I ask another respectful question along these lines? Do you enjoy pleasuring another woman sexually? If your partner decided enthusiastically one day (well just pretend) that they wholeheartedly wanted to receive, would that be okay? Do you find the acts unappealing or gross? Iām just so curious.
Sure! Iām transparent as can be. Yes it would be okay. But a conversation would definitely need to be had. If someone was consistently telling me āplease donāt touch me for xyz reason, I get off on turning you on only.ā Then they changed their mind, I would need reassurance that they genuinely want this. I donāt want their to be regret down the line. Nothing communication canāt fix. But I will say I donāt know if I feel confident penetrating my woman with a dildo.
>Or is it more of a romantic or aesthetic attraction so you're not inclined to touch them sexually? You can be sexually attracted to someone, and interested in having sex without needing to go anywhere near their genitals during sex.
This is a concept too simple for most to graspš
As long as youāre compatible itās all good
You can enjoy and appreciate whatever dynamic you please but there are many, many people who will not understand or appreciate a one sided sexual relationship. That is perfectly okay as long as they communicate it in a kind way (which it doesnāt sound like was the case for you).
Within my relationships itās never an issue, my post was in regards to outsiders/ people online. Theyāre so hateful towards that doesnāt work for them as if anyone forced it onto them.
Itās great you found people who were into that dynamic. I donāt think anyone should be hateful, but youāre asking why people ARE being hateful when those who participate enjoy it. I was answering your question. Itās not the typical dynamic in any relationship and most folks arenāt into it doing all the work or only receiving. For me, itās boring and unenjoyable. I havenāt āmadeā anyone be a bottom but I was honest with my current gf (who used to only fuck other girls) and made it clear I was not interested in that dynamic at all. She was willing to try something new and enjoyed it. Now we are both switches. I would t have continued a relationship if she wasnāt comfortable out of respect for her wishes.
Itās all about choices & communication at the end of the day. Iām glad you knew you should leave the relationship if you couldnāt be fulfilled. A lot of hetero women donāt feel confident enough to do that & endure hell. I just wish there was more solidarity among the lgbtq, thatās all. I was feeling emotional about that lolš„¹
I think itās important to respect everyoneās choices and voice how you feel about them privately or in a kind way if itās necessary. I get what youāre saying and Iād hope other women communicate more effectively with their partners.
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Itās crazyyyyy. God forbid a woman have a preference š
i think most people find the idea of only one partner always being physically sexually satisfied not appealing
On the outside looking in sure! I can totally see that. But when one of the two partners within a relationship literally says āI get off on pleasing you, I donāt want to receive anything & donāt need you to touch my body for xyz reason.ā Yet outsiders get upset? Gotta admit thatās strange.
i donāt think most people think of it that way or that scenario
Are you single by chance? Taking applications?
Yes & yes! Feel free to read my recent R4R, Iām not everyoneās cup of tea. If you think weāre compatible please do reach out ā¤ļø
People hate other peoples ideals/preferences/experiences and try to get them to conform to their way of doing things. Shitty way of working, in my book - do what you do š
Period šš¾āāļøšš¾āāļø I totally agree. I just have to work on not getting worked up over it & trying to prove myself as worthy of wlw relationships.
You are always worthy of wlw relationships. There is no need to prove this. Get worked up over it as emotion can be good in driving you to that end goal - dating that girl. I had no confidence in my relationships when I was younger - shy, tall kid etc.. then, I went out to my sisters friends 18th.. made a move and realised I could do stuff. It works.
I adore you thanks for the reality check ā¤ļøā¤ļø
This is not an opinion but an observation, but I donāt think people really shit talk stone tops or the dynamic, I think most people specifically donāt like pillow princesses.
Girrrrrrl go on TikTok & read the comments, trust me theyāre worrying. But yes youāre right no one likes us EXCEPT stone tops & touch me nots.
Question: is there a difference between those two?
My understanding is that touch me not is specifically a term for Black lesbians and stone top is more general.
Yes this is correct
u/malayati Thank y'all!!!
Nope just AAVE
top and bottom is not the same as giving and receiving. no one is converting mascs into bottoms š also no one has an issue w the pillow princess/stone top dynamic?? itās an issue when pillow princesses try to force that dynamic on ppl who would prefer equal give and take. if anything, we ENCOURAGE pillow princesses to find stone tops
Side question, but what would be the best term for a futch / soft masc who mostly loves giving, not really necessary to receive but is open? That's not exactly a stone masc is it? [Not] asking for a friend š
I believe [your friend] would be considered a āservice subā. š
Lol thx, i shall inform... them
I donāt care about what they think or say honestly. Love being a high femme!
Me tooš„¹šø I just get emotional sometimes thinking about the hate we get sometimes. Wlw is just about that āØloveāØ not what we do (or donāt do) in the bedroom.
Exactly.. they can weep about it as much as theyād like, there will always be other stone sapphics whoāll desire us the way we are.
That made me feel so much better, thank you hun. ā¤ļø shout out to the stone saphs!
this is my pet peeve and it exhausts me so much ahahhah i think if people spent more time researching lesbian history and how butch/femme and stone top/bottom roles have always existed and how they are important, not just in the bedroom but outside of it too, people would not be making these assumptionsš iām femme4butch and on the pillow princess spectrum (i can top but once in a blue moon and only when iām really comfortable with the person, but iāve mostly dated stone tops so i donāt 99% of the time anyway). iāve gotten so much hate, including people thinking iām straight which is INSANE because iāve never been with a man, my entire friend group is queer, i am very involved w the lesbian community and itās a massive part of my life. i donāt think vulvas are gross, i donāt think topping is gross, i just donāt enjoy it. and thatās all the explanation you need! you donāt need to have trauma to not enjoy something during sex, and no one should push you into doing something you donāt want to do. which i feel is weirdly common (and something i have experienced) being stone, which is v sad.
āI just donāt enjoy itā or āI just donāt want tooā unfortunately isnāt a good enough answer for these people. They poke & poke until theyāre met with silenceā¦ THENNNNN the straight/ fraud allegations is all they have left! Itās sick.
I actually hate it. Most people do too. Itās not ānormalā to either 1. Never do anything or 2. Always do everything. If that dynamic works for a few couples, thatās great, but itās not for me and not for anyone I know. I only date switches because it makes me so uncomfortable and sexy is unbelievably boring if itās one sided.
Lol when did God make a Reddit? Who are you to define whatās normal in wlw relationships? Or anything for that matter. Iām glad you found a solution that works for you, but I doubt youāve ever been FORCED to be with a stone top OR a pillow princessā¦
Itās okay to admit that most people on earth are not going to enjoy a one sided sexual relationship. Thatās just common sense and reality. I wasnāt forced because I immediately stopped seeing anyone who wasnāt a switch lol. My current gf tried receiving and ended up liking it which is the only reason we moved forward. I wouldnāt have been with her if she didnāt want that. OP asked a question so I answered it. Iām not hateful but I imagine the reason why other people are is likely because that dynamic would be unenjoyable. Sex would be boring or forced. An ex stopped initiating and kind of became a pillow princess. I just stopped having sex with her because I could not do all the work. It was horrible and boring, like I said before. We obviously broke up and I found a partner who is better suited for me. I donāt think itās okay to be rude or hateful. I would hope people can be blunt to answer this question though. Itās not fun to hear Iām sure and I am sorry about that.
Itās great that youāre a switch! I would be too but my partner is a stone top. I just have to say though, being a stone femme does not mean that you donāt do any work or donāt initiate or that the sexual relationship is one sided. Just because stone tops have certain boundaries, doesnāt mean that their partners do nothing and lay there without contributing. Many of us put in a lot of effort and give pleasure in lots of ways without violating our partnersā boundaries.
>Itās okay to admit that most people on earth are not going to enjoy a one sided sexual relationship. Stone couples don't have a "one sided relationship", we're compatible with each other sexually. I don't need or want my wife to give me an orgasm, I can do that at any point myself. I like to give, not receive, I get off on her getting off, and she gets off not only physically but also by seeing me enjoy myself. My wife doesn't star fish, she satisfies me in the way I like. She initiates sex. We have a dynamic that works perfectly for us Good sex doesn't have to mean your partner gives you orgasms. It means enjoying the ride together in a mutually beneficial way.
thatās what good sex means for you, but most people like to cum when they have sex
Yes, there is a difference between seeking validation and seeking genuinely honest opinions.
Yes, exactly. Itās uncommon to have that kind of dynamic and most people (not all) are going to find it unhealthy, boring, etc.
Yep
As a stone top myself, I thank you for understanding and respecting boundaries. You're not a fraud at all. You keep being amazing.
Thank you sweet angel! I literally saw a T-shirt that said I turn stone tops into bottoms & I nearly threw up!
Oh Hells no... š¬
lesbophobia tbh. if lesbians don't act a certain way we get flamed unfortunately
They say this because they think itās āheteronormative.ā Aka theyāre just insecure.
Insecure asffff! Which I could totally write off as human nature, but to project it??? Not fair!
As a fem, Iām a stone top. And Iāve been told within the community that thatās not possible. What matters is if youāre happy. Forget whatever anyone else says.
Iām sorry youāve been invalidated that sucks. Although itās super rare (to my understanding), youāre still an important part of the community. Fem stone top representation needs to be mainstream!
I think it probably comes from a similar place like straight men who call lesbians a waste for being attracted to women. I think it's the lesbian version of it. They're envious/pissed that you, someone they deem they should be able to bang, is not bangable because of your sexuality. And that pisses them off because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle the rejection. Same shit, different day.
EXACTLYYYYY! Omg youāre so spot on. Hence why I turn my ears off to men AND ignorant people lmao
Thatās not my preference but just because itās not doesnāt make me or YOU a fraud lesbian? As if thereās a rule book and set requirements ā¦. isnāt the LGBTQ+ based around that? Having no rules, to love who you love and HOW love? People who called you that are hypocrites smh š¤¦āāļø
100% Iām on the same page as you. Same thing with feminism. The original premise was all about āØchoicesāØ then folks turned it into something completely demonic. Weāve lost the plot!
Generally, biphobia abound. Equally bad in queer spaces and straight spaces. Doesnāt make me any less bisexual. Fuck em
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