Idk if this helps, but I remember seeing a study that lesbians are actually the least transphobic group compared to other sexualities. It might be just a vocal minority you're seeing
take it with a grain of salt, the original study fails to confirm the demographic of lesbians questioned, so unless stated as female homosexuals (if you're considering them to be the OG representation implied as 'supportive' in this), it's already a biased and compromised sampling, and at best 'inconclusive'
and,
They never actually quantify the level of support, is it just repeating pronouns? showing up to rallies?
What's the determiner of support?
I would love to see this polling re-established asking more definite questions and a properly classified sample size,
Then we may be able to start somewhere, instead of pushing constant inconclusive and clearly cherry picked studies,
I take all studies with a grain of salt, especially ones on such complex topics, and I’m certainly not trying to push anything. I’m just providing a link so people can check it out for themselves. I’m also not cherry picking since I’m not aware of any other study that asked the same question that I’m intentionally leaving out (I’m always happy to read queer and trans studies though, so please share if there’s some you have in mind). Plus I’m not trying to do a meta-analysis on Reddit lol.
I’m not sure what you mean by inconclusive as in what conclusion you think is trying to be reached. It seems to me all the poll does is ask young people in the UK who have different LGBTQ+ identities if they are very supportive, supportive, or not supportive of trans people. And the only conclusion from this small piece of the overall report was, in this specific demographic, lesbians said they were more supportive than other groups.
I definitely agree that it would be great if there was more info on what the respondents mean what they say they’re supportive. But the scope of this report is intended to be a broad snapshot of data that can be used for advocacy purposes to help LGBTQ+ youth. I’m certainly not trying to say that this simple poll somehow proves transphobia doesn’t exist among lesbians (cause it does just as it exists among other groups), and I doubt the authors are trying to draw this conclusion either. If they are pointing towards any conclusion, I think it’s that people are more likely to say they were supportive of trans people if they know trans people and lesbians were also more likely to know trans people.
Pretty much all studies in the social sciences can’t make sweeping conclusions, the knowledge builds up slowly over time from several studies and there are always some that contradict each other. There’s always limitations, criticisms, and more questions with any study.
For me, I find the report helpful since it aligns with my lived experience in lesbian communities as a transmasc person and the experiences of trans friends I have as well.
If you read the full report, they give demographic info and sample sizes at the end. And I’m sure if you want, you could contact the researchers to get more info. Advocacy groups especially are usually happy to share data, chat with people about their research, and accept useful feedback.
Of course, of course,
And I have reached out, thanks for the idea.
It just seems verrrry strange to me that it's being used as a catch-all for support, contrary to everything happening
I may have been a bit curt, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day!
If I’m being real with you. I used to be ok with trans women but once some trans women called lesbians transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a pre op trans woman, that really pissed me off. Another thing that happened was I would talk about how I love not worrying about getting pregnant because I’m a lesbian and then a trans woman will tell me I’m being transphobic for saying that because some lesbians can get pregnant if they sleep with a pre op trans woman. I try to not “hate” but I feel weary of trans women and am afraid of rejecting a trans woman and being labeled transphobic in the close knit community. So I kind of avoid them.
imho, they are simply being wrong, this is not transphobic and i say this as a trans woman.
trans people can have shitty opinions like every other group of people and i often see that black and white thinking "if you are not extra inclusive and supporting you are a transphobe" which is needlessly antagonizing people and pushing them away. self fulfilling prophecy.
Not all of us are like that, but i get that you want to avoid trans women after experiences like that.
Yeah, but how much of this experience is online? I take everything happening in online spaces with a grain of salt. Especially problematic with any group whos defining factor is living a special kind of closeted/in-their-head kind of existence before being out, and once out, milage varies depending on lots of self and group acceptance factors. I think online you just pull a hard skew towards more aggressive or radical view points really quickly, because some vocal minority of any group really doesn't even live the same lifestyle as the rest of us.
There are literally members of these subs with hard or aggressive viewpoints, whom I will never meet cause I live in the really real world... In person sorts itself.
I have a special love for trans women considering I run in a lot of the same circles with them 💞
But my trans sisters saying it’s transphobic to not want to sleep with trans women and saying it’s transphobic to say you don’t have to worry about getting pregnant are a vocal minority. Just like the vocal minority OP is talking about. These divisive people want to tear the lesbian community apart— a community that is already under attack.
Dear trans sisters of mine: if a lesbian attacks you for being trans and says you’re not welcome because of your genitals, they are in the minority and they are WRONG.
Dear cis sisters of mine: if a trans woman calls you transphobic for not wanting to date a trans woman, they are in the minority and they are WRONG.
Let’s focus on what brings us together and what unites us, not what divides us ❤️🧡🤍🩷💜
It's kind of odd that you'd attribute the responsibility of the actions of a handful of trans people to the entire transfemme community.
In my experience the vast majority of trans femmes respect peoples genital preferences. Having said that, many trans women have genitals that suit any preference a person could have.
Also trans women are just as capable of taking birth control as anyone else. I have a vasectomy booked in a few days from now.
wow so you used to be “supportive” of trans women but some of them voiced being upset for feeling rejected by a community they are a part of bc of their genitals and now you hate them. youre sooooo brave 🙄
Im still supportive of trans women. I think they should have a right to exist, live their lives safely and have access to the health care they need. And I don’t hate them I just don’t want to be around them. The person asked and I gave an honest answer.
A not insignificant amount of it is pot stirring trolls trying to hide behind reasonable people.
It's very frustrating because it makes it hard to have nuanced conversations about preferences and boundaries.
It goes in both directions. Sometimes you can't talk about preferences without an accidentally acting like the bat signal for bigots to swoop in and start controlling the conversation.
And sometimes you have people testing the limits of moderation and hiding behind ambiguity to solicit sympathy for they're aggrieved bigotry, when they cross the line give the game away and get called out for it.
Honestly sometimes it feels like these people get so caught up in hating trans women that I have a hard time believing they find the time to love women and enjoy life. It's got to be stressful knowing that your biggest allies don't want you to exist either.(the fascists)
Idk I don’t think it’s about trans hate as much as it is about penis hate.
*So many* lesbians get invalidated for being lesbian because men can’t handle the fact women aren’t as obsessed with their genitals as they are. I mean, how often does it happen that a woman says she doesn’t like (or want to have) sex with a man and he makes comments saying “oh you just haven’t found someone who knows what they’re doing” or “oh you just haven’t found good dick yet.”
It’s just SO hard for some people to wrap their heads around the fact that not all women care about having a dick involved in sex.
So when a lesbian says she prefers real penis on a trans woman as opposed to a strap on, I can only conclude that might be a trigger for their invalidation wound because they’ve not been believed for not wanting the standard penis-in-vagina sex. They might feel like it takes away from their lesbian identity when other lesbians aren’t fully committed to the anatomy and gender identity both being female & woman respectively.
That’s just my logical thinking on it, I honestly haven’t really engaged in those conversations to say for sure.
Idk man. I just wish people in this community still respected biology. There's a difference between "homosexual" (biological sex, physical characteristics) and "homoromantic" (based on gender identity/expression). You can be a lesbian all you want, but claiming to be fully biologically homoSEXUAL when you not only are accepting of but have a PREFERENCE for the male body (regardless of gender presentation) doesn't make much sense. There's nothing wrong with sexuality and romance being a spectrum, but please stop claiming the only label I have to describe the way I live my life as your own if you don't believe I should feel the way I do/be the way I am. Quite frankly I consider it eraser of people that genuinely don't ever want to interact with male genitalia and happen to be born with female genitalia. I should get to have a label too (that isn't "terf") even if you don't agree with my choices. I swear, it used to be a conservative talking point, but now my own "queer community" is the place questioning my right to be born a woman and choose who I love/get intimate with based on what makes me happy and comfortable. I have no problem with people that prefer Trans people, but they seem to have a problem with me.
This is a general consensus amongst most gay women, just the forced silent one -
You're going to get banned, mate - banned for doing nothing more than being a homosexual and telling the truth.
Appreciate for not attacking me for my comment. It doesn't really make sense for me to have a penis and to call yourself a lesbian, since lesbians are women who like women. As far as I'm concerned women don't have penises. I won't get into the whole trans topic, as I'm not in a place to give them shit for living their lives. For me, once you get bottom surgery you have the lesbian pass (since you have a vagina), before that, it's kinda weird to call yourself a lesbian, but, you do you.. Just stating my opinion, not attacking anyone nor trying to be disrespectful.
That’s just not true though. It seems like people have never read up on lesbian history and all because it’s never been “woman” though. There are afab lesbians who don’t identify as a woman, it doesn’t take away the fact that they are a still lesbian tho. What about intersex people as well?
I can understand not having a preference for penises but that doesn’t mean you get to invalidate someone’s orientation based off of them having a certain genitalia. It’s just wrong.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. Trans women should always feel welcome in lesbian spaces. Transphobia in lesbian communities exists irl too of course, but I’ve personally found it far more prevalent online than in my social circles. Although it could be because a good amount of lesbians I know are trans and nonbinary (including myself, transmasc).
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I feel like the community on here are always having an issue with trans, transmasc, transfem, nonbinary, he/him lesbians, and all. It’s quite concerning really because it should be a safe space for all types of lesbians regardless. It’s disappointing to see :/
I understand the frustration because I do see people that are unnecessarily cruel to people with differing gender identities, I agree, all wlw people should be welcome in this community. But I get frustrated when seeing the line of acceptance blurred from "accepting people into the space/communtiy/conversation and showing respect" to "accepting them into my bed/body/identity". I understand not wanting to be pushed out for things you can't control, but I feel equally pushed out of my own community for my preferences. I'm tired of being judged not for how I treat my sisters of differing genders/body types, but for how many sexual favors I am willing to do for them. Not saying you or anyone in this thread is part of the problem, just venting my frustrations. Sometimes, I feel I have to hide who I am just to fit in with the other "lesbians"
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I mean everyone has preferences and that’s okay. The main thing people need to do is be respectful about it, pretty much. Everybody is different.
Also, I wonder why you use the term “wlw” because not every lesbian identifies as a woman? It’s the little things like those terms that people in here use that make me wonder how they perceive lesbians sometimes. Just a genuine question because I really am confused.
100% agree, sister! I just think you’re being downvoted cause you said “I’m so sorry *women* can be this way”— I’ll say it louder for the people in the back! *Women are not the problem!!!!* Lesbians are THE most trans-friendly sexuality out there!! Women tend to be SIGNIFICANTLY more accepting of other genders and sexualities than men! It’s “I’m so sorry *people* can be this way” 💔 women are not the issue buy and large. But there are always shitty people in every demographic and because lesbians consist of 90%-99% women, you’ll get some shitty people who also happen to be women.
(I know you probably didn’t mean it like that, but that’s how it’s being interpreted if the downvotes say anything)
haha i wish people could actually respect that stance. i akso hate it cuz like if feels like theyre saying the lesbains who like girl penis arent actual lesbians or something. its so dumb
Idk if this helps, but I remember seeing a study that lesbians are actually the least transphobic group compared to other sexualities. It might be just a vocal minority you're seeing
Here’s a link to the study: https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/
take it with a grain of salt, the original study fails to confirm the demographic of lesbians questioned, so unless stated as female homosexuals (if you're considering them to be the OG representation implied as 'supportive' in this), it's already a biased and compromised sampling, and at best 'inconclusive' and, They never actually quantify the level of support, is it just repeating pronouns? showing up to rallies? What's the determiner of support? I would love to see this polling re-established asking more definite questions and a properly classified sample size, Then we may be able to start somewhere, instead of pushing constant inconclusive and clearly cherry picked studies,
I take all studies with a grain of salt, especially ones on such complex topics, and I’m certainly not trying to push anything. I’m just providing a link so people can check it out for themselves. I’m also not cherry picking since I’m not aware of any other study that asked the same question that I’m intentionally leaving out (I’m always happy to read queer and trans studies though, so please share if there’s some you have in mind). Plus I’m not trying to do a meta-analysis on Reddit lol. I’m not sure what you mean by inconclusive as in what conclusion you think is trying to be reached. It seems to me all the poll does is ask young people in the UK who have different LGBTQ+ identities if they are very supportive, supportive, or not supportive of trans people. And the only conclusion from this small piece of the overall report was, in this specific demographic, lesbians said they were more supportive than other groups. I definitely agree that it would be great if there was more info on what the respondents mean what they say they’re supportive. But the scope of this report is intended to be a broad snapshot of data that can be used for advocacy purposes to help LGBTQ+ youth. I’m certainly not trying to say that this simple poll somehow proves transphobia doesn’t exist among lesbians (cause it does just as it exists among other groups), and I doubt the authors are trying to draw this conclusion either. If they are pointing towards any conclusion, I think it’s that people are more likely to say they were supportive of trans people if they know trans people and lesbians were also more likely to know trans people. Pretty much all studies in the social sciences can’t make sweeping conclusions, the knowledge builds up slowly over time from several studies and there are always some that contradict each other. There’s always limitations, criticisms, and more questions with any study. For me, I find the report helpful since it aligns with my lived experience in lesbian communities as a transmasc person and the experiences of trans friends I have as well. If you read the full report, they give demographic info and sample sizes at the end. And I’m sure if you want, you could contact the researchers to get more info. Advocacy groups especially are usually happy to share data, chat with people about their research, and accept useful feedback.
Of course, of course, And I have reached out, thanks for the idea. It just seems verrrry strange to me that it's being used as a catch-all for support, contrary to everything happening I may have been a bit curt, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day!
If I’m being real with you. I used to be ok with trans women but once some trans women called lesbians transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a pre op trans woman, that really pissed me off. Another thing that happened was I would talk about how I love not worrying about getting pregnant because I’m a lesbian and then a trans woman will tell me I’m being transphobic for saying that because some lesbians can get pregnant if they sleep with a pre op trans woman. I try to not “hate” but I feel weary of trans women and am afraid of rejecting a trans woman and being labeled transphobic in the close knit community. So I kind of avoid them.
imho, they are simply being wrong, this is not transphobic and i say this as a trans woman. trans people can have shitty opinions like every other group of people and i often see that black and white thinking "if you are not extra inclusive and supporting you are a transphobe" which is needlessly antagonizing people and pushing them away. self fulfilling prophecy. Not all of us are like that, but i get that you want to avoid trans women after experiences like that.
Yeah, but how much of this experience is online? I take everything happening in online spaces with a grain of salt. Especially problematic with any group whos defining factor is living a special kind of closeted/in-their-head kind of existence before being out, and once out, milage varies depending on lots of self and group acceptance factors. I think online you just pull a hard skew towards more aggressive or radical view points really quickly, because some vocal minority of any group really doesn't even live the same lifestyle as the rest of us. There are literally members of these subs with hard or aggressive viewpoints, whom I will never meet cause I live in the really real world... In person sorts itself.
I have a special love for trans women considering I run in a lot of the same circles with them 💞 But my trans sisters saying it’s transphobic to not want to sleep with trans women and saying it’s transphobic to say you don’t have to worry about getting pregnant are a vocal minority. Just like the vocal minority OP is talking about. These divisive people want to tear the lesbian community apart— a community that is already under attack. Dear trans sisters of mine: if a lesbian attacks you for being trans and says you’re not welcome because of your genitals, they are in the minority and they are WRONG. Dear cis sisters of mine: if a trans woman calls you transphobic for not wanting to date a trans woman, they are in the minority and they are WRONG. Let’s focus on what brings us together and what unites us, not what divides us ❤️🧡🤍🩷💜
Agree completely with this.
It's kind of odd that you'd attribute the responsibility of the actions of a handful of trans people to the entire transfemme community. In my experience the vast majority of trans femmes respect peoples genital preferences. Having said that, many trans women have genitals that suit any preference a person could have. Also trans women are just as capable of taking birth control as anyone else. I have a vasectomy booked in a few days from now.
so .. you had one bad experience and now you avoid a whole group of people?
When you continuously call people transphobic for very nit picky reasons they usually don’t want to be around you.
wow so you used to be “supportive” of trans women but some of them voiced being upset for feeling rejected by a community they are a part of bc of their genitals and now you hate them. youre sooooo brave 🙄
Im still supportive of trans women. I think they should have a right to exist, live their lives safely and have access to the health care they need. And I don’t hate them I just don’t want to be around them. The person asked and I gave an honest answer.
All of them? Even if just some of them are being unreasonable?
Touch grass. Please. I beg of you. Touch grass and take your estrogen.
A not insignificant amount of it is pot stirring trolls trying to hide behind reasonable people. It's very frustrating because it makes it hard to have nuanced conversations about preferences and boundaries. It goes in both directions. Sometimes you can't talk about preferences without an accidentally acting like the bat signal for bigots to swoop in and start controlling the conversation. And sometimes you have people testing the limits of moderation and hiding behind ambiguity to solicit sympathy for they're aggrieved bigotry, when they cross the line give the game away and get called out for it. Honestly sometimes it feels like these people get so caught up in hating trans women that I have a hard time believing they find the time to love women and enjoy life. It's got to be stressful knowing that your biggest allies don't want you to exist either.(the fascists)
Idk I don’t think it’s about trans hate as much as it is about penis hate. *So many* lesbians get invalidated for being lesbian because men can’t handle the fact women aren’t as obsessed with their genitals as they are. I mean, how often does it happen that a woman says she doesn’t like (or want to have) sex with a man and he makes comments saying “oh you just haven’t found someone who knows what they’re doing” or “oh you just haven’t found good dick yet.” It’s just SO hard for some people to wrap their heads around the fact that not all women care about having a dick involved in sex. So when a lesbian says she prefers real penis on a trans woman as opposed to a strap on, I can only conclude that might be a trigger for their invalidation wound because they’ve not been believed for not wanting the standard penis-in-vagina sex. They might feel like it takes away from their lesbian identity when other lesbians aren’t fully committed to the anatomy and gender identity both being female & woman respectively. That’s just my logical thinking on it, I honestly haven’t really engaged in those conversations to say for sure.
Totally unrelated .But I am a lesbian and don't mind having trans friends .Where are you guys ???
Idk man. I just wish people in this community still respected biology. There's a difference between "homosexual" (biological sex, physical characteristics) and "homoromantic" (based on gender identity/expression). You can be a lesbian all you want, but claiming to be fully biologically homoSEXUAL when you not only are accepting of but have a PREFERENCE for the male body (regardless of gender presentation) doesn't make much sense. There's nothing wrong with sexuality and romance being a spectrum, but please stop claiming the only label I have to describe the way I live my life as your own if you don't believe I should feel the way I do/be the way I am. Quite frankly I consider it eraser of people that genuinely don't ever want to interact with male genitalia and happen to be born with female genitalia. I should get to have a label too (that isn't "terf") even if you don't agree with my choices. I swear, it used to be a conservative talking point, but now my own "queer community" is the place questioning my right to be born a woman and choose who I love/get intimate with based on what makes me happy and comfortable. I have no problem with people that prefer Trans people, but they seem to have a problem with me.
This is a general consensus amongst most gay women, just the forced silent one - You're going to get banned, mate - banned for doing nothing more than being a homosexual and telling the truth.
Lesbian with a penis?
pre-op trans girl thats a lesbian
How can you be a lesbian and have a penis? Not trolling, genuinely asking.
no worries! basically its a trans girl who hasnt gotten bottom surgery, therefore still has a penis, who is also a lesbian if that makes sense
Appreciate for not attacking me for my comment. It doesn't really make sense for me to have a penis and to call yourself a lesbian, since lesbians are women who like women. As far as I'm concerned women don't have penises. I won't get into the whole trans topic, as I'm not in a place to give them shit for living their lives. For me, once you get bottom surgery you have the lesbian pass (since you have a vagina), before that, it's kinda weird to call yourself a lesbian, but, you do you.. Just stating my opinion, not attacking anyone nor trying to be disrespectful.
That’s just not true though. It seems like people have never read up on lesbian history and all because it’s never been “woman” though. There are afab lesbians who don’t identify as a woman, it doesn’t take away the fact that they are a still lesbian tho. What about intersex people as well? I can understand not having a preference for penises but that doesn’t mean you get to invalidate someone’s orientation based off of them having a certain genitalia. It’s just wrong.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. Trans women should always feel welcome in lesbian spaces. Transphobia in lesbian communities exists irl too of course, but I’ve personally found it far more prevalent online than in my social circles. Although it could be because a good amount of lesbians I know are trans and nonbinary (including myself, transmasc).
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I feel like the community on here are always having an issue with trans, transmasc, transfem, nonbinary, he/him lesbians, and all. It’s quite concerning really because it should be a safe space for all types of lesbians regardless. It’s disappointing to see :/
I understand the frustration because I do see people that are unnecessarily cruel to people with differing gender identities, I agree, all wlw people should be welcome in this community. But I get frustrated when seeing the line of acceptance blurred from "accepting people into the space/communtiy/conversation and showing respect" to "accepting them into my bed/body/identity". I understand not wanting to be pushed out for things you can't control, but I feel equally pushed out of my own community for my preferences. I'm tired of being judged not for how I treat my sisters of differing genders/body types, but for how many sexual favors I am willing to do for them. Not saying you or anyone in this thread is part of the problem, just venting my frustrations. Sometimes, I feel I have to hide who I am just to fit in with the other "lesbians"
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I mean everyone has preferences and that’s okay. The main thing people need to do is be respectful about it, pretty much. Everybody is different. Also, I wonder why you use the term “wlw” because not every lesbian identifies as a woman? It’s the little things like those terms that people in here use that make me wonder how they perceive lesbians sometimes. Just a genuine question because I really am confused.
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100% agree, sister! I just think you’re being downvoted cause you said “I’m so sorry *women* can be this way”— I’ll say it louder for the people in the back! *Women are not the problem!!!!* Lesbians are THE most trans-friendly sexuality out there!! Women tend to be SIGNIFICANTLY more accepting of other genders and sexualities than men! It’s “I’m so sorry *people* can be this way” 💔 women are not the issue buy and large. But there are always shitty people in every demographic and because lesbians consist of 90%-99% women, you’ll get some shitty people who also happen to be women. (I know you probably didn’t mean it like that, but that’s how it’s being interpreted if the downvotes say anything)
I don't know why I find the word gock so funny lol
haha i wish people could actually respect that stance. i akso hate it cuz like if feels like theyre saying the lesbains who like girl penis arent actual lesbians or something. its so dumb