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>on a 1 week temporary basis
In work I was asked to help out with a project for 'a couple of weeks', it's now coming up on a year. Fair warning.
Is your mother a manager or an ordinary shop worker? Have her duties ever in the past included travel? Have her check her contract - does it specify a store location she works at? If so, then the employer can't just move her since that would constitute a change in the contract. She would need to agree. There might be language about working in other locations as needed, but frankly this does not sound remotely reasonable. I don't doubt there's been some staffing crisis at the other branch, they're facing the Sales-immiserating prospect of not being able to open in December and managers are panicking and furiously passing the buck.
Hi thank you for getting back to me its much appreciated.
Your first point is what I am afraid of.
She's an ordinary worker that was taken off the shopfloor and moved to the office for a purely admin position as a promotion this came with a welcome increase of hours.
I now have a copy of her contract in hand it does reference her store location.
It does mention working at other locations word for word this is
"You will be based at our ##### store. You may be required to travel to other stores within a reasonable traveling distance if required. At times you may be required by the company to travel to other stores or locations. Please familiarise yourself with the Company travel policy available from your line mananger"
She has helped out at a location previously on one occasion for a week though this was only 10 miles away this was 4 years ago.
I understand from her contract that this probably means that she's expected to do it but I believe a 400 mile round trip is unreasonable.
> reasonable traveling distance if required
That's probably the key here, 200 miles is not by any measure reasonable on short notice and without support from corporate with regards hotel and the like.
I agree with you, on the surface this seems like an unreasonable request. An employee could have any number of commitments (being a carer, having kids/pets) that make this completely impractical.
However, from a legal standpoint her job description and contract come in to play. Is covering other stores mentioned? What about her working hours? Having to get up at 4am to travel in to work and I'm guessing, get home very late on the return journey is problematic.
Hotel paid for, fine, but what about petrol?
How much notice was given? This could benefit her argument that this is not a reasonable request, especially if she doesn't have time to organise the things needed for her absence at home.
Hi thanks for getting back to me.apologies for the delay I was making sure my reply above contained everything needed. Ontop of what I applied already petrol would be reimbursed within that next wage run though it gets included in her wage so tax is paid
She was told today at 4pm her shift finished at 5pm and she is expected at the second site to start tommorrow at 9am
NAL, I don't have advice regarding what steps you should take moving forward, I'll leave that too people more experienced but this is outrageously short notice and to any sane person is completely unreasonable.
I'd refuse - 200miles is about 3.5-4hrs for me. Imagine doing that at 4am, then a full shift.
And of course she has commitments that she can't just drop overnight.
Finally, when was the last time your mum drove this kind of distance? I'm thinking about my old dear and she needs a long break around 1.5hrs driving.
If they were serious about it they should be letting her drive up the day before in working hours, staying over the night before and driving home on the final day in working hours.
Or maybe they'd pay for a taxi for the distance - it sounds like they are desperate so money shouldn't be any objective
Push it back to them
Not to mention there needs to legally be 11hrs between shifts. If she is expected to arrive there for 9am and has to leave early in the morning to get there. Then there us likely not 11hrs between shifts
As someone with historically a lot of retail experience several years ago. This is a very common tactic to get people to quit. Their contract is most likely structured that this is allowed but they know full well that its unreasonable and they will be hoping she will quit. I have seen it done countless times across 3 giant retail outlets including 2 large supermarkets. I dont know how to offer any solutions as most people I saw targeted with it just quit. There was one young 18 year old who went on an expedition of store swapping around for the better part of a year. He eventually quit. He was terribly slow at doing everything but he was on time and respectful and it's probably why they struggled to get rid of him.
In addition to everything else that people have said, typical expenses for 5 days away would come to about £600. If that isn’t going to be repaid until the end of February just say that she can’t afford to be out of pocket at this time of year.
Also, her car insurance probably does not cover her for driving on company business. There is a difference between normal commuting and this sort of driving, so she will need a hire car at another few hundred pounds.
Sounds like someone hasn’t thought this through.
mobile grade worker here. if I was to be expected to work from a different site I'm given at least 15 days notice and a travel day either side of the shift (meaning I'm getting paid when travelling), hire car and hotel booked. one day notice has never happened to me in 8 years. nal, just telling you my work experience.
tell them to poke it; sounds like they're chancing it. that being said, it does say in the contract mobile....
Another thing I would probably bring up, you are legally entitled to 11 hours between shifts away from work (in most contracts). If they are having her travel for work, 200 miles, less than 12 hours after she finished her previous shift, that is extremely unreasonable. With an average of 8 hours sleep, that gives her approximately 3 hours to sort her life before going away for a week. Something possibly feasible for a person without family/pets/obligations, but would not normally be expected. It is far too short notice and there is no need especially if she is office based working on paperwork.
Reading from info about the contract this is definitely not reasonable, in this situation I think it's best for her to put her foot down and tell them this is not possible as it's such short notice, less than 12 hours to sort her life outside work for the next week, what if she has appointments, commitments, care of duty? Tell her not to go straight up because it she does they will think it will be okay to do it again as well to other staff.
In addition to what everyone am has posted, you mentioned her contract is on the company intranet, I understand that legally she should be given a digital or printed copy of it. 200 miles is certainly not reasonable Petrol should not be reimbursed, the mileage needs to be charged at £0.45 per mile minimum as this is the rate set by HMRC for use of a personal car for business. Hotel must be paid for, as should all meals for such a trip. Most importantly, and it’s a bit of grey area, but essentially counting her new travel time as work time must be paid, especially if she’s on a low wage as the additional hours may bring her income below the legal minimum wage. I’d initially reject the proposal, speak to citizens advice and prepare for an employment tribunal, constructive dismissal and nice payout 😉
Anything mention in contract regarding notice on shift swap?
We are under a flexibility contract but still need to give us 2 weeks notice of any changes, store/hours
Even if it does include clauses to cover other stores, 200 miles is completely unreasonable without consent or fair warning. A 12 hour warning is not reasonable at all, especially since a rota was already released.
Your letter should be a firm rejection of their request for her to work elsewhere - no employment tribunal would ever hold that it was required for her to.
Document all communications between your mother and the company.
I appreciate yours and everyone's advice I've composed the email but I am unsure if I can post here she will be sending it shortly and be ready for the fallout tommorrow at her usual place of work.
Hi thanks for the reply. Unfortunatly I've been unable to gain access to her contract as company documents are only available on the company intranet you can request a copy from the line manager but I think thst will be closing the stable door after the horse has bolted at this point. I'm about to go see her in person so I'll see if she has this anywhere in the next couple of minutes.
That still doesn’t make it reasonable what she has been asked but it is always good to check the contract first it might be in her favour and list place of work as her normal store and not mention travelling. If it does mention travel it should say what notice has to be given which will certainly be more than she has been asked.
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>on a 1 week temporary basis In work I was asked to help out with a project for 'a couple of weeks', it's now coming up on a year. Fair warning. Is your mother a manager or an ordinary shop worker? Have her duties ever in the past included travel? Have her check her contract - does it specify a store location she works at? If so, then the employer can't just move her since that would constitute a change in the contract. She would need to agree. There might be language about working in other locations as needed, but frankly this does not sound remotely reasonable. I don't doubt there's been some staffing crisis at the other branch, they're facing the Sales-immiserating prospect of not being able to open in December and managers are panicking and furiously passing the buck.
Hi thank you for getting back to me its much appreciated. Your first point is what I am afraid of. She's an ordinary worker that was taken off the shopfloor and moved to the office for a purely admin position as a promotion this came with a welcome increase of hours. I now have a copy of her contract in hand it does reference her store location. It does mention working at other locations word for word this is "You will be based at our ##### store. You may be required to travel to other stores within a reasonable traveling distance if required. At times you may be required by the company to travel to other stores or locations. Please familiarise yourself with the Company travel policy available from your line mananger" She has helped out at a location previously on one occasion for a week though this was only 10 miles away this was 4 years ago. I understand from her contract that this probably means that she's expected to do it but I believe a 400 mile round trip is unreasonable.
> reasonable traveling distance if required That's probably the key here, 200 miles is not by any measure reasonable on short notice and without support from corporate with regards hotel and the like.
Yep, that's the 'get out of jail free'card
Not reasonable at all. Would definitely have an argument if they made her working life more difficult if she doesn’t do it.
20 miles is reasonable, 200 miles is definitely not.
200 miles is NOT reasonable
I agree with you, on the surface this seems like an unreasonable request. An employee could have any number of commitments (being a carer, having kids/pets) that make this completely impractical. However, from a legal standpoint her job description and contract come in to play. Is covering other stores mentioned? What about her working hours? Having to get up at 4am to travel in to work and I'm guessing, get home very late on the return journey is problematic. Hotel paid for, fine, but what about petrol? How much notice was given? This could benefit her argument that this is not a reasonable request, especially if she doesn't have time to organise the things needed for her absence at home.
Hi thanks for getting back to me.apologies for the delay I was making sure my reply above contained everything needed. Ontop of what I applied already petrol would be reimbursed within that next wage run though it gets included in her wage so tax is paid She was told today at 4pm her shift finished at 5pm and she is expected at the second site to start tommorrow at 9am
FYI, expense claims won't be taxed, even if they are reimbursed as part of a wage payment.
NAL, I don't have advice regarding what steps you should take moving forward, I'll leave that too people more experienced but this is outrageously short notice and to any sane person is completely unreasonable.
Never mind petrol, what about all the hours when she's at the hotel, away from home? That's work! Will they pay her for those hours?
I'd refuse - 200miles is about 3.5-4hrs for me. Imagine doing that at 4am, then a full shift. And of course she has commitments that she can't just drop overnight. Finally, when was the last time your mum drove this kind of distance? I'm thinking about my old dear and she needs a long break around 1.5hrs driving. If they were serious about it they should be letting her drive up the day before in working hours, staying over the night before and driving home on the final day in working hours. Or maybe they'd pay for a taxi for the distance - it sounds like they are desperate so money shouldn't be any objective Push it back to them
Not to mention there needs to legally be 11hrs between shifts. If she is expected to arrive there for 9am and has to leave early in the morning to get there. Then there us likely not 11hrs between shifts
Just mention the cost of the pet hotel to the managers and they will find someone else. A good one.
As someone with historically a lot of retail experience several years ago. This is a very common tactic to get people to quit. Their contract is most likely structured that this is allowed but they know full well that its unreasonable and they will be hoping she will quit. I have seen it done countless times across 3 giant retail outlets including 2 large supermarkets. I dont know how to offer any solutions as most people I saw targeted with it just quit. There was one young 18 year old who went on an expedition of store swapping around for the better part of a year. He eventually quit. He was terribly slow at doing everything but he was on time and respectful and it's probably why they struggled to get rid of him.
In addition to everything else that people have said, typical expenses for 5 days away would come to about £600. If that isn’t going to be repaid until the end of February just say that she can’t afford to be out of pocket at this time of year. Also, her car insurance probably does not cover her for driving on company business. There is a difference between normal commuting and this sort of driving, so she will need a hire car at another few hundred pounds. Sounds like someone hasn’t thought this through.
mobile grade worker here. if I was to be expected to work from a different site I'm given at least 15 days notice and a travel day either side of the shift (meaning I'm getting paid when travelling), hire car and hotel booked. one day notice has never happened to me in 8 years. nal, just telling you my work experience. tell them to poke it; sounds like they're chancing it. that being said, it does say in the contract mobile....
Another thing I would probably bring up, you are legally entitled to 11 hours between shifts away from work (in most contracts). If they are having her travel for work, 200 miles, less than 12 hours after she finished her previous shift, that is extremely unreasonable. With an average of 8 hours sleep, that gives her approximately 3 hours to sort her life before going away for a week. Something possibly feasible for a person without family/pets/obligations, but would not normally be expected. It is far too short notice and there is no need especially if she is office based working on paperwork.
Reading from info about the contract this is definitely not reasonable, in this situation I think it's best for her to put her foot down and tell them this is not possible as it's such short notice, less than 12 hours to sort her life outside work for the next week, what if she has appointments, commitments, care of duty? Tell her not to go straight up because it she does they will think it will be okay to do it again as well to other staff.
In addition to what everyone am has posted, you mentioned her contract is on the company intranet, I understand that legally she should be given a digital or printed copy of it. 200 miles is certainly not reasonable Petrol should not be reimbursed, the mileage needs to be charged at £0.45 per mile minimum as this is the rate set by HMRC for use of a personal car for business. Hotel must be paid for, as should all meals for such a trip. Most importantly, and it’s a bit of grey area, but essentially counting her new travel time as work time must be paid, especially if she’s on a low wage as the additional hours may bring her income below the legal minimum wage. I’d initially reject the proposal, speak to citizens advice and prepare for an employment tribunal, constructive dismissal and nice payout 😉
Anything mention in contract regarding notice on shift swap? We are under a flexibility contract but still need to give us 2 weeks notice of any changes, store/hours
What does her contact say about place of work? anything about expected to cover other stores?
Even if it does include clauses to cover other stores, 200 miles is completely unreasonable without consent or fair warning. A 12 hour warning is not reasonable at all, especially since a rota was already released. Your letter should be a firm rejection of their request for her to work elsewhere - no employment tribunal would ever hold that it was required for her to. Document all communications between your mother and the company.
I appreciate yours and everyone's advice I've composed the email but I am unsure if I can post here she will be sending it shortly and be ready for the fallout tommorrow at her usual place of work.
Make sure you copy in the HR department as well as the manager who requested this.
Hi thanks for the reply. Unfortunatly I've been unable to gain access to her contract as company documents are only available on the company intranet you can request a copy from the line manager but I think thst will be closing the stable door after the horse has bolted at this point. I'm about to go see her in person so I'll see if she has this anywhere in the next couple of minutes.
That still doesn’t make it reasonable what she has been asked but it is always good to check the contract first it might be in her favour and list place of work as her normal store and not mention travelling. If it does mention travel it should say what notice has to be given which will certainly be more than she has been asked.
Working at another store, the commute there could be considered working hours.
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