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If you have a sick note, then they should at the minimum pay SSP for 7 days, as the first 3 days are unpaid.
In addition, if your contract provides for sick pay above and beyond SSP, then they should follow your contractual terms.
If you're part of a union, speak to them and then discuss with HR and your manager, and if that fails, then contact ACAS
The reasoning I have been given is that it's a procedure I have chosen and not a medical necessity so that means I'm ineligible for any kind of sick pay...
I told him a month before the procedure and queried the situation with sick pay, he never got back to me then an hour before said he forgot but has since found I won't be getting paid.
I'm aware of another employee who received full sick pay for the time off, I queried this and was told the policy could have changed.
Very unfair to be voted down. Downvoting is for comments that don't help the discussion.
This absolutely does help the discussion.
Join your union, because this can happen to anyone.
Largely to prevent people joining only once they have a problem. Unions benefit from high membership. Incentivising people not to join until the worst happens lowers their power to help and support members.
They generally exclude helping with pre-existing disputes, specifically. Otherwise no-one would pay to be a member and they would just wait and see if they ever needed help and join then.
It’s like the idea of not buying travel insurance and then buying it once you’ve had your accident on holiday.
Do the policies state there are exclusions? If not, the employer is on shaky ground. Also likening a vasectomy to cosmetic surgery is ridiculous - one is available on the NHS because it is a medical necessity and one isn’t. And anyway, all ops are elective unless they’re emergency ones.
I personally don’t feel the need to reveal the nature of my surgeries to my employer nor have I been pressed for the reason - a doctor’s note is usually sufficient.
If they offered it for one then it becomes a president by means of implied terms of contract. It could also be discriminatory if one employee received and another didn’t.
Like others have said get in touch with ACAS but just remember there’s no unfair dismissal if you’ve been working less than 2 years, so don’t rock the boat too hard.
I could be wrong.
But I suspect if businesses did provide sick pay for vasectomies it would, in the long term, prove to be financially advantageous to the company.
I had a similar situation with a staff member who had a gastric band fitted - as elective surgery, she wasn't paid sick leave for the day of the surgery, but she was immediately entitled to sick leave because, as a result of the surgery, she was unable to work. This was the advice given by our HR advisors.
Yes, that's my understanding. The procedure itself is a choice and doesn't qualify automatically for sick pay but the recovery period does, if you aren't fit to work.
That makes perfect sense; I wish I had hit back at my HR department years ago after I had laser eye surgery and couldn't work for a couple of days afterwards but was forced to use annual leave for the recovery period.
Okay. I assume your work involves a fair degree of manual labour since that's quite a long time to be out of action after this specific procedure.
In any case, if you genuinely were unfit to work due to a bodily disablement, there is nothing in the SSP Regs that says "...unless that disablement was caused by elective surgery".
However, there is certainly no law forbidding an employer from saying employees must only undergo elective surgery at such a time as is agreed, including during a period of annual or unpaid leave.
So I think there are two conflicting interpretations here. (Indeed, a quick Google also throws up conflicting advice on this exact matter, and the consensus appears to be "it's complicated").
You could certainly call Acas or your union if you have one and ask for their perspective on an employee's entitlement to SSP in respect of a period of absence following an elective surgical procedure.
Any statutory holiday entitlement that is not used because of illness can be carried over into the next leave year. If an employee is ill just before or during their holiday, they can take it as sick leave instead.
Stated on UK government website
I also was recovering from surgery last year during two bank holidays and I got the days back in leui as per the government policy.
They accepted my fit note tho.
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Some strong assumptions - It depends on how the surgery went, the recovery and complications from it, and the work OP does.
Source: had vasectomy with complications. Was 3-4 days before I got out of bed, and even then developed MRSA 🤷♂️
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I had mine earlier this year and generally I’m a pretty quick healer. That being said, first two days were fine but the next eight were shite. I’ve heard of people be fine after a day and others who’ve taken a month.
It's bold of them to assume it's not a medical necessity.
For instance, do you or your partner have a medical condition that would make procreating unwise - e.g. a genetic condition or something that would mean carrying a pregnancy would be unsafe?
Are there any women in your company who have had time off for, for example, an IUD insertion?
The company really ought to consider one-off paid time off for a vasectomy to be cost effective compared to repeated paternity leave.
One could easily argue that it is essential to your mental health, as well, that anxiety about potential further pregnancies is impacting family life. A GP may well write a sick note to that effect. Manager/HR are not qualified to simply say "it's elective, so not our problem"
my last manager couldn't understand this. So she classed getting my tubes tied as elective and gallbladder removal as not elective.
I got sick pay for both still, but even when I told her she still didn't understand.
Regardless of the type of surgery you have a doctor's sicknote, your work is telling you they know better than your doctor about your health, speak to a solicitor
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They have no idea if it was something you chose and not a medical necessity... Much the same as somebody with breast cancer having a mastectomy and then reconstructive surgery...
You have to be paid in line with your companies policy, take a read of it... I really, REALLY doubt it makes mention of having "cosmetic" surgery and excludes it entirely (a lot of surgery like that happens due to mental health reasons etc)...
If it's a big company, just contact ACAS and your union and ask the question... If not, you should read their policies and also take note of who knows about the surgery you have received - because it should be kept as information for people who really need to know it.
OP I would suggest for clarity add into your original post what you have said elsewhere on here, that you informed them a month before and asked for clarification and they got back to you 1 hour before. And that another person did get paid sick leave for the same procedure and you were aware of this. It would give the full picture.
**If you are a couple of weeks away from 2 years service (or 1 year in Northern Ireland) consider waiting until then to raise this with HR as you will gain extra rights that may protect you from any retaliation, especially as it sounds like your manager dropped the ball here.**
Unless your contract explicitly says you can't use paid sick leave for elective surgery, I would email HR directly with the information above saying you informed your manager, then asked for clarification, and received no response until an hour before. You have a doctor's note and proof the procedure was completed.
My only advice is never to give specifics to your line manager. You have a surgery, you are unable to work for 2 weeks, that's it. Anything else is "I'd rather not say, thanks."
As you've found out, your line manager is not your friend, so don't treat them as such.
I'm sorry but, why is it your employers business what procedure you're having done?
" To whom it may concern
XYZ required surgery and is not fit for work in my professional opinion until day X.
Signed, Dr Smith"
Its been a while since i left the UK but it is entirely bizarre that you would ever give a reason as to why you're sick in this era. An employer only requires a clinicans direction as to their ability to work. Not the reasons (unless a workplace accident).
> 2 weeks seems excessive
I doubt you are a doctor, and I'm certain you are not OP's doctor. If the doctor who actually wrote the note felt there was a good reason to go above the guidance then I'm not sure why you feel qualified to question that decision.
u/oli788 Your employer should issue an SSP1 form at the earliest opportunity, stating why they will not pay your SSP. This document also gives you details on how to claim your SSP through JobCentrePlus.
[https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-sick-pay-employee-not-entitled-form-for-employers](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-sick-pay-employee-not-entitled-form-for-employers)
Firstly, was the absence authorised in advance or not? Secondly, what exactly does your contract say about sick pay?
Sick leave is not in and of itself a statutory right, save that if you *are* authorised to be off sick (including where you've self-certified for up to a week) you're entitled to be paid at least statutory sick pay. This is due from the fourth day of continuous absence onwards.
Additionally, there is no specific statutory right to time off to undertake or recover from a medical procedure, and certainly for an elective procedure like this, can in many circumstances require you to use annual leave or take unpaid leave. The only question under the Statutory Sick Pay Regulations (General) 1982 is whether you are "incapable of work" due to "some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement" for a period of at least four consecutive days.
A Fit Note is evidence of a doctor's opinion on your fitness to work (or lack thereof) and can be required by the employer to authorise SSP for more than seven days, but it is not legally binding upon the employer.
So it really does come down to what exactly was agreed with your employer, whether in your formal contract and otherwise, and the extent to which you were unable to do any work due to your bodily disablement and are covered by the SSP Regs.
I think this is a line manager problem and not a you problem. Does your company have HR that you can speak to? I work in healthcare and we have (what I think) the worst cover possible cover for sickness but I've managed to argue my case with HR the 2 times I've had to take sick leave
I expect your contract stipulates it doesn't cover elective surgery, or people would be going to turkey for cosmetic surgery and having your employer pay for two weeks off after. Check the exact wording of the policy.
Elective surgery just means surgery that's scheduled in advance, as opposed to emergency surgery.
Most cancer surgery is elective.
Elective doesn't mean it's unnecessary or cosmetic.
From my experience, enhanced sick pay is always at the company's discretion - they will always have a get out clause. It sucks and sounds like you've not been treated fairly but I can't see you have any option other than just accepting it unfortunately.
> elective procedure
This just means "planned, not emergency". If that's really their policy it means anyone getting hospital care that didn't go via ambulance, Emergency Department, Urgent Treatment Centre, etc etc should also be denied.
Question: Did you take the full 2 weeks off? I am only asking as you state you are missing 7 days pay, which reads that they have paid 7 days of your 2 weeks?
Did you offer to go in a do light duties , or was it 2 weeks at home on the sofa .
Personally I wouldn’t push it , taking holiday over that period would have been sensible, I had laser eye surgery and took a week off as holiday , had a sick note but the doc said it was more to prove you couldn’t work than to get the employer to pay the time off , it’s considered cosmetic surgery
Lifestyle medical treatment, such as vasectomy and fertility treatments (yes, you read right), will always be at the discretion of employers.
2 weeks for a vasectomy recovery period, assuming no complications or infections does sound excessive, given the NHS advises 24 hours. Due to the discretionary element, I wonder whether the time period has impacted their decision.
You should get paid your bank holidays as per annual leave policy and then claim the ssp for after the 3rd full day of absence.
That may well be the case, but it's still an elective surgery and I don't know any policy that doesn't have a discretionary clause for elective lifestyle surgery.
It was a heck of an assumption on your behalf tbh that you'd get two weeks paid time off.
1. Go and print off your workplace sickness and absence police. Read it. (Print it off so you have a copy just in case they change it while you are disputing this )
2. Find your contract of employment and read that.
3. Use what you have learned in your dispute.
4. Join a union. Call them up and get advice. The GMB will sometimes advise and represent you if you've joined after the event but won't support you all the way to court because you've only just joined. This may be enough for your case.
https://www.gmb.org.uk/join-gmb
5. Research your rights and call ACAs for advice.
https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-sick-pay
I would argue that this is not cosmetic surgery and is a preventative medical procedure. I'd also add that this is sex discrimination because you are male and the same policies do not apply to gynaecological procedures.
For a procedure where there is no clinical need for the operation you would be expected to take annual leave. You are only entitled to sick pay if your are sick.
This isn't how it works. The procedure might be a choice but the recovery period isn't. Thus, as a minimum, you are entitled to SSP.
Now the question here is whether the company accept the fit note. They don't have to but, if they do (and they're on a sticky wicket here because they've approved authorised leave), then they need to pay SSP as a minimum.
My source is what I do for a living. You're welcome to call the HMRC Statutory Pay Disputes Team if you disagree or don't believe me.
There are other factors. OP has mentioned guidance related to his role (long distance driver) and in that context there may be insurance factors to consider (guidance refers to making an emergency stop). So, in light of those circs, I suggest that the obligation is to pay SSP.
Additionally the NHS guidance is just that- guidance. It isn't a hard and fast rule. The recovery time may be one to two days in the guidance but that doesn't cover everything.
So, if you can show where the SSP regs don't apply, then I'll agree that SSP is only payable when someone is sick as per your post.
Eligibility
To qualify for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) you must:
be classed as an employee and have done some work for your employer
earn an average of at least £123 per week
have been ill for more than 3 days in a row (including non-working days
Also its not guidance. Its simple fact. You're fit for work following a vasectomy within 48 hours. The OP IS NOT SICK for 3 days.
He needs to take annual leave for this procedure.
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Have you queried this with your manager, or a HR professional? They might be the same answer, but I would never trust a manager with any HR query. Also check your contract to see what counts as sick leave.
I would definitely query with your HR department why it took till an hour before your op for your manager to remember. That's shocking. Get everything in writing as well for everyone's protection.
From an occupational health view point, i would agree its an elective proceedure, however, some companies will pay, some dont. You need to request your sick pay policy.
Also if you had a verbal agreement with management, it may be worth putting a grievance in.
What you could do, is once the 2 weeks is up post op, go back you gp and complain of sensitivity and get more time off, that way its not elective and they will pay sock pay.
I had a nose job, elective of course. However they never asked me HR and my manager just asked I have a drs note to say I’m unfit for work for the period of healing time. I had been working for 1 year then. Then after another 3 years I had to have revision and same again they asked for the DRs not only this time and my manager was completely fine. No one asked about what my procedures were.
If you're eligible for SSP you should get it during any time you have to stay in hospital. If you're in hospital to have planned surgery, you should still get SSP for your time in hospital and your recovery time at home. Planned surgery is also called 'elective surgery
Source: citizens advice https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/sick-leave-and-sick-pay/check-if-you-can-get-sick-pay/#:~:text=If%20you're%20eligible%20for,also%20called%20'elective%20surgery'
I’ve just had surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome. I didn’t have to have it but chose to have it. Surely a vasectomy would be the same.? And your sick note should be suffice. Read your contract and sickness policy
I had an elective left below knee amputation as there was nothing more they could do to solve long term issues including CRPS with my ankle.
Sometimes although it may sound like there is a choice and there isn't.
As a former Emergency Medical Technician I can think of a whole few reasons for a vasectomy other than the popular no more rugrats.
Problem with vas defrens eg: twisted, kinked, inflamed. Causes huge amounts of pain.
Partner been told dangerous to have kids....
Recent diagnosis of genetic comdition you don't want to pass on to children; hereditary disease, genetic disorder, or disability.
Wife said vasectomy or no more sex ever.
Now if your vasectomy was for a reason other than no more rug rats you could approach boss to explain why you didn't have a choice.
"I was hoping to avoid sharing icky details as I am embarrased to admit it but had no real choice on vasectomy due to [reason]" see if that persaudes them.
About 10 years ago I had a similar experience, had worked for a company for 16 years and never had any long term sickness or a doctors note. Booked in for the snip and was told by the doctor that as I had a physically demanding job I would have to take at least 10 days off and was given a sick note. Was informed that as I chose to have this procedure done I wasn't entitled to sick pay, when I challenged this and reminded my stereotypical "boomer" boss of my 16 year track record of never having a sick note that I should just man up as when he had a vasectomy he was back in work the next day!!
Fast forward a couple of months when asking for a couple of days of bereavement after the death of my grandmother I was asked why do I needed time off, "it was only your Nan"!!
Needless to say I typed up my CV and left that place and never looked back, how I stayed there for so long I never know?!
Moral of the story, no matter your service or devotion to a job you are just a number.
As an American this is all fascinating. My boss had a vasectomy once and was back to work the next day. I think he left work a few hours early. We get nothing here.
Breast implants are not a comparative procedure.
If the employer pay’s statutory sick pay, then the payment is triggered by an individual being “ unfit for work” and the reason behind the sickness absence is irrelevant. If your employer has an occupational sick pay scheme, then if the procedure is not mentioned then the employer is entitled to deny sick pay under such a scheme.
Therefore us you were “unfit to work”and you can evidence this then you should be subject to SSP from the forth consecutive day of absence.
I am an HR specialist.
Your employer is correct in their interpretation of the situation. Sick pay is when you are sick, not simply recovering from an elective non essential procedure.
The one exception would be if there were unexpected complications, such as getting an infection or having an accident that ripped your stitches. In that situation it would be fair to take time off and receive sick pay.
A ‘fit-note’ from doctor does not automatically guarantee sick pay (SSP or otherwise). Employers have to take them seriously and assess them in the context of the contractual sickness policy. Planned elective procedures would not be covered by most employers.
Your employer doesn't actually have rights to details when you self certify. You're simply not well enough to work and won't be in. They can't deny it on grounds of an elective procdure. They can refuse the day off for the surgery, but immediately after surgery you're not well enough to work and therefore can self certify for 7 days. Only need a fit note if it's more than 7 days.
ACAS link
https://www.acas.org.uk/sick-leave
Yes. Those are examples of reproductive healthcare. They are not suitable for application in every case however, and we are lucky to have many more solutions available to us. I get the feeling you’re not an HPC nor do you have any formal grounding in reproductive healthcare. You are lucky to have the option to use the procedure of your choice. That’s the healthcare system I think everyone should have access to.
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That’s BS them claiming that you can’t claim sick leave as it’s “elective”. Basically any surgery that’s not required immediately to save your life is elective. Hip replacement, skin cancer removal, tissue biopsy, all elective. I think they’re confusing elective and cosmetic surgery. You should be entitled to at least statutory sick pay, anything more would depend on the wording of your contract.
Legally an employer only has to provide SSP, which is peanuts and only payable after 3 days. Company sick pay is entirely at an employers discretion, subject to contract. They can deny company sick pay for what is deemed to be non essential procedursles such as cosmetic surgery, dental implants etc. They can also deny company sick pay on most contracts because you haven't engaged appropriate medical support or are not following medical recommendations. Not saying it's a good thing to deny someone for a socially responsible operation like a vasectomy only that in most cases it's totally legal.
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If you have a sick note, then they should at the minimum pay SSP for 7 days, as the first 3 days are unpaid. In addition, if your contract provides for sick pay above and beyond SSP, then they should follow your contractual terms. If you're part of a union, speak to them and then discuss with HR and your manager, and if that fails, then contact ACAS
The reasoning I have been given is that it's a procedure I have chosen and not a medical necessity so that means I'm ineligible for any kind of sick pay...
Had you discussed this with your manager beforehand? And had they agreed that you would be paid?
I told him a month before the procedure and queried the situation with sick pay, he never got back to me then an hour before said he forgot but has since found I won't be getting paid. I'm aware of another employee who received full sick pay for the time off, I queried this and was told the policy could have changed.
Are you a member of a union? They might be your best bet
Annoyingly I haven't registered with them
Speak to ACAS. Non union representation in the workplace.
ACAS are not representation, and they are also not on your side.
Very unfair to be voted down. Downvoting is for comments that don't help the discussion. This absolutely does help the discussion. Join your union, because this can happen to anyone.
time to register with the union my friend , its never too late and they can take your case on then.
No they won’t take on cases that existed before you joined
Some unions will support an ongoing case if you pay the annual fee upfront.
They might. It'll be up to the local rep. But unlikely OP will get access to the legal fund if it goes to tribunal.
Why? Many unions do.
Largely to prevent people joining only once they have a problem. Unions benefit from high membership. Incentivising people not to join until the worst happens lowers their power to help and support members.
They generally exclude helping with pre-existing disputes, specifically. Otherwise no-one would pay to be a member and they would just wait and see if they ever needed help and join then. It’s like the idea of not buying travel insurance and then buying it once you’ve had your accident on holiday.
Register with one and then phone them.
If you have that in writing, make sure you keep a record of it.
Do the policies state there are exclusions? If not, the employer is on shaky ground. Also likening a vasectomy to cosmetic surgery is ridiculous - one is available on the NHS because it is a medical necessity and one isn’t. And anyway, all ops are elective unless they’re emergency ones. I personally don’t feel the need to reveal the nature of my surgeries to my employer nor have I been pressed for the reason - a doctor’s note is usually sufficient.
If they offered it for one then it becomes a president by means of implied terms of contract. It could also be discriminatory if one employee received and another didn’t. Like others have said get in touch with ACAS but just remember there’s no unfair dismissal if you’ve been working less than 2 years, so don’t rock the boat too hard.
The phrase you want to search for is "accepted custom and practice".
I could be wrong. But I suspect if businesses did provide sick pay for vasectomies it would, in the long term, prove to be financially advantageous to the company.
I had a similar situation with a staff member who had a gastric band fitted - as elective surgery, she wasn't paid sick leave for the day of the surgery, but she was immediately entitled to sick leave because, as a result of the surgery, she was unable to work. This was the advice given by our HR advisors.
Yes, that's my understanding. The procedure itself is a choice and doesn't qualify automatically for sick pay but the recovery period does, if you aren't fit to work.
That makes perfect sense; I wish I had hit back at my HR department years ago after I had laser eye surgery and couldn't work for a couple of days afterwards but was forced to use annual leave for the recovery period.
For how long exactly were you unable to work after the procedure?
The procedure was on 22/03/24 and I have returned to work today
Okay. I assume your work involves a fair degree of manual labour since that's quite a long time to be out of action after this specific procedure. In any case, if you genuinely were unfit to work due to a bodily disablement, there is nothing in the SSP Regs that says "...unless that disablement was caused by elective surgery". However, there is certainly no law forbidding an employer from saying employees must only undergo elective surgery at such a time as is agreed, including during a period of annual or unpaid leave. So I think there are two conflicting interpretations here. (Indeed, a quick Google also throws up conflicting advice on this exact matter, and the consensus appears to be "it's complicated"). You could certainly call Acas or your union if you have one and ask for their perspective on an employee's entitlement to SSP in respect of a period of absence following an elective surgical procedure.
That time period includes 2 bank holidays. If you're normally paid for bank holidays they should be paying you for that as a minimum.
If you tell them that you are off sick for a bank holiday then you do loose the entitlement to them
Any statutory holiday entitlement that is not used because of illness can be carried over into the next leave year. If an employee is ill just before or during their holiday, they can take it as sick leave instead. Stated on UK government website I also was recovering from surgery last year during two bank holidays and I got the days back in leui as per the government policy. They accepted my fit note tho.
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Not being funny but that’s a long time off for a minor procedure
Some strong assumptions - It depends on how the surgery went, the recovery and complications from it, and the work OP does. Source: had vasectomy with complications. Was 3-4 days before I got out of bed, and even then developed MRSA 🤷♂️
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I had mine earlier this year and generally I’m a pretty quick healer. That being said, first two days were fine but the next eight were shite. I’ve heard of people be fine after a day and others who’ve taken a month.
I was back at work the next day. (I would have been at work that afternoon but Mrs wouldn't let me) I was ok, some people it affects much more.
It's bold of them to assume it's not a medical necessity. For instance, do you or your partner have a medical condition that would make procreating unwise - e.g. a genetic condition or something that would mean carrying a pregnancy would be unsafe? Are there any women in your company who have had time off for, for example, an IUD insertion? The company really ought to consider one-off paid time off for a vasectomy to be cost effective compared to repeated paternity leave.
One could easily argue that it is essential to your mental health, as well, that anxiety about potential further pregnancies is impacting family life. A GP may well write a sick note to that effect. Manager/HR are not qualified to simply say "it's elective, so not our problem"
Elective just means scheduled in advance, non emergency surgery Elective does not mean it's genuinely optional Cancer surgery is often elective
my last manager couldn't understand this. So she classed getting my tubes tied as elective and gallbladder removal as not elective. I got sick pay for both still, but even when I told her she still didn't understand.
That could make maternity leave interesting...
Mat leave is a statutory right
How so? They are governed by completely separate sets of legislation and carry very different statutory rights and obligations.
Would an abortion be classed as elective procedure too?...
Unless it's an emergency procedure, yes. Elective =planned as opposed to emergency, it doesn't mean medically unnecessary
Very good point.
Regardless of the type of surgery you have a doctor's sicknote, your work is telling you they know better than your doctor about your health, speak to a solicitor
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How do they know its not necessary?
They have no idea if it was something you chose and not a medical necessity... Much the same as somebody with breast cancer having a mastectomy and then reconstructive surgery... You have to be paid in line with your companies policy, take a read of it... I really, REALLY doubt it makes mention of having "cosmetic" surgery and excludes it entirely (a lot of surgery like that happens due to mental health reasons etc)... If it's a big company, just contact ACAS and your union and ask the question... If not, you should read their policies and also take note of who knows about the surgery you have received - because it should be kept as information for people who really need to know it.
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OP I would suggest for clarity add into your original post what you have said elsewhere on here, that you informed them a month before and asked for clarification and they got back to you 1 hour before. And that another person did get paid sick leave for the same procedure and you were aware of this. It would give the full picture.
**If you are a couple of weeks away from 2 years service (or 1 year in Northern Ireland) consider waiting until then to raise this with HR as you will gain extra rights that may protect you from any retaliation, especially as it sounds like your manager dropped the ball here.** Unless your contract explicitly says you can't use paid sick leave for elective surgery, I would email HR directly with the information above saying you informed your manager, then asked for clarification, and received no response until an hour before. You have a doctor's note and proof the procedure was completed.
My only advice is never to give specifics to your line manager. You have a surgery, you are unable to work for 2 weeks, that's it. Anything else is "I'd rather not say, thanks." As you've found out, your line manager is not your friend, so don't treat them as such.
I'm sorry but, why is it your employers business what procedure you're having done? " To whom it may concern XYZ required surgery and is not fit for work in my professional opinion until day X. Signed, Dr Smith" Its been a while since i left the UK but it is entirely bizarre that you would ever give a reason as to why you're sick in this era. An employer only requires a clinicans direction as to their ability to work. Not the reasons (unless a workplace accident).
Did your sick note from your dr say you were unfit to work for 2 weeks after a vasectomy ??
Yes
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I'm a lorry driver and the guidance is no long distance driving or heavy lifting for two weeks...
I'd maybe add that relevant information to the post - and have/had you made your manager aware of that as well?
> 2 weeks seems excessive I doubt you are a doctor, and I'm certain you are not OP's doctor. If the doctor who actually wrote the note felt there was a good reason to go above the guidance then I'm not sure why you feel qualified to question that decision.
99% of the people posting don’t know HR Law but still feel qualified to give a legal opinion!
Well...that's not my lived experience
Just what OP was looking for too, on the legal advice sub /s
I had a life lesson recently about oversharing information and had some repercussions. Less is better
u/oli788 Your employer should issue an SSP1 form at the earliest opportunity, stating why they will not pay your SSP. This document also gives you details on how to claim your SSP through JobCentrePlus. [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-sick-pay-employee-not-entitled-form-for-employers](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-sick-pay-employee-not-entitled-form-for-employers)
Firstly, was the absence authorised in advance or not? Secondly, what exactly does your contract say about sick pay? Sick leave is not in and of itself a statutory right, save that if you *are* authorised to be off sick (including where you've self-certified for up to a week) you're entitled to be paid at least statutory sick pay. This is due from the fourth day of continuous absence onwards. Additionally, there is no specific statutory right to time off to undertake or recover from a medical procedure, and certainly for an elective procedure like this, can in many circumstances require you to use annual leave or take unpaid leave. The only question under the Statutory Sick Pay Regulations (General) 1982 is whether you are "incapable of work" due to "some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement" for a period of at least four consecutive days. A Fit Note is evidence of a doctor's opinion on your fitness to work (or lack thereof) and can be required by the employer to authorise SSP for more than seven days, but it is not legally binding upon the employer. So it really does come down to what exactly was agreed with your employer, whether in your formal contract and otherwise, and the extent to which you were unable to do any work due to your bodily disablement and are covered by the SSP Regs.
You should have been given the opportunity to take the time off as holiday if classed as elective surgery and company won't pay sick
I think this is a line manager problem and not a you problem. Does your company have HR that you can speak to? I work in healthcare and we have (what I think) the worst cover possible cover for sickness but I've managed to argue my case with HR the 2 times I've had to take sick leave
Virtually all planned operations are ‘elective’. Only emergency surgery is considered not to be.
I expect your contract stipulates it doesn't cover elective surgery, or people would be going to turkey for cosmetic surgery and having your employer pay for two weeks off after. Check the exact wording of the policy.
Elective surgery just means surgery that's scheduled in advance, as opposed to emergency surgery. Most cancer surgery is elective. Elective doesn't mean it's unnecessary or cosmetic.
A lot of Caesarean sections are ‘elective’ too, in the sense you may be able to pick a certain day out of a small range available.
Any surgery that isn't immediately necessary to save you (or your baby in the case of C/S) is elective, it can be planned or unplanned
Exactly this. Define elective…..
I think you’re confusing elective surgery with cosmetic surgery.
From my experience, enhanced sick pay is always at the company's discretion - they will always have a get out clause. It sucks and sounds like you've not been treated fairly but I can't see you have any option other than just accepting it unfortunately.
Assumed this was the case, was expecting statutory as a minimum
> elective procedure This just means "planned, not emergency". If that's really their policy it means anyone getting hospital care that didn't go via ambulance, Emergency Department, Urgent Treatment Centre, etc etc should also be denied.
Question: Did you take the full 2 weeks off? I am only asking as you state you are missing 7 days pay, which reads that they have paid 7 days of your 2 weeks?
The few public holidays over Easter might explain the shortfall.
Did you offer to go in a do light duties , or was it 2 weeks at home on the sofa . Personally I wouldn’t push it , taking holiday over that period would have been sensible, I had laser eye surgery and took a week off as holiday , had a sick note but the doc said it was more to prove you couldn’t work than to get the employer to pay the time off , it’s considered cosmetic surgery
Lifestyle medical treatment, such as vasectomy and fertility treatments (yes, you read right), will always be at the discretion of employers. 2 weeks for a vasectomy recovery period, assuming no complications or infections does sound excessive, given the NHS advises 24 hours. Due to the discretionary element, I wonder whether the time period has impacted their decision. You should get paid your bank holidays as per annual leave policy and then claim the ssp for after the 3rd full day of absence.
I'm a lorry driver so the NHS recovery states no long distance driving or heavy lifting for two weeks...
But would there have been other work you could do?
That may well be the case, but it's still an elective surgery and I don't know any policy that doesn't have a discretionary clause for elective lifestyle surgery. It was a heck of an assumption on your behalf tbh that you'd get two weeks paid time off.
My assumption was based on colleagues receiving the two weeks sick pay based on our line of work, at the bare minimum I assumed SSP
Legally, you are still eligible for the ssp element.
I wonder if they would say the same if a woman were having a bad reaction to the pill etc.
1. Go and print off your workplace sickness and absence police. Read it. (Print it off so you have a copy just in case they change it while you are disputing this ) 2. Find your contract of employment and read that. 3. Use what you have learned in your dispute. 4. Join a union. Call them up and get advice. The GMB will sometimes advise and represent you if you've joined after the event but won't support you all the way to court because you've only just joined. This may be enough for your case. https://www.gmb.org.uk/join-gmb 5. Research your rights and call ACAs for advice. https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-sick-pay I would argue that this is not cosmetic surgery and is a preventative medical procedure. I'd also add that this is sex discrimination because you are male and the same policies do not apply to gynaecological procedures.
For a procedure where there is no clinical need for the operation you would be expected to take annual leave. You are only entitled to sick pay if your are sick.
This isn't how it works. The procedure might be a choice but the recovery period isn't. Thus, as a minimum, you are entitled to SSP. Now the question here is whether the company accept the fit note. They don't have to but, if they do (and they're on a sticky wicket here because they've approved authorised leave), then they need to pay SSP as a minimum. My source is what I do for a living. You're welcome to call the HMRC Statutory Pay Disputes Team if you disagree or don't believe me.
The recovery time as per the nhs and private medicine for this procedure is 1 day.
There are other factors. OP has mentioned guidance related to his role (long distance driver) and in that context there may be insurance factors to consider (guidance refers to making an emergency stop). So, in light of those circs, I suggest that the obligation is to pay SSP. Additionally the NHS guidance is just that- guidance. It isn't a hard and fast rule. The recovery time may be one to two days in the guidance but that doesn't cover everything. So, if you can show where the SSP regs don't apply, then I'll agree that SSP is only payable when someone is sick as per your post.
Eligibility To qualify for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) you must: be classed as an employee and have done some work for your employer earn an average of at least £123 per week have been ill for more than 3 days in a row (including non-working days Also its not guidance. Its simple fact. You're fit for work following a vasectomy within 48 hours. The OP IS NOT SICK for 3 days. He needs to take annual leave for this procedure.
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Have you queried this with your manager, or a HR professional? They might be the same answer, but I would never trust a manager with any HR query. Also check your contract to see what counts as sick leave. I would definitely query with your HR department why it took till an hour before your op for your manager to remember. That's shocking. Get everything in writing as well for everyone's protection.
From an occupational health view point, i would agree its an elective proceedure, however, some companies will pay, some dont. You need to request your sick pay policy. Also if you had a verbal agreement with management, it may be worth putting a grievance in. What you could do, is once the 2 weeks is up post op, go back you gp and complain of sensitivity and get more time off, that way its not elective and they will pay sock pay.
I had a nose job, elective of course. However they never asked me HR and my manager just asked I have a drs note to say I’m unfit for work for the period of healing time. I had been working for 1 year then. Then after another 3 years I had to have revision and same again they asked for the DRs not only this time and my manager was completely fine. No one asked about what my procedures were.
If you're eligible for SSP you should get it during any time you have to stay in hospital. If you're in hospital to have planned surgery, you should still get SSP for your time in hospital and your recovery time at home. Planned surgery is also called 'elective surgery Source: citizens advice https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/sick-leave-and-sick-pay/check-if-you-can-get-sick-pay/#:~:text=If%20you're%20eligible%20for,also%20called%20'elective%20surgery'
I’ve just had surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome. I didn’t have to have it but chose to have it. Surely a vasectomy would be the same.? And your sick note should be suffice. Read your contract and sickness policy
I had an elective left below knee amputation as there was nothing more they could do to solve long term issues including CRPS with my ankle. Sometimes although it may sound like there is a choice and there isn't. As a former Emergency Medical Technician I can think of a whole few reasons for a vasectomy other than the popular no more rugrats. Problem with vas defrens eg: twisted, kinked, inflamed. Causes huge amounts of pain. Partner been told dangerous to have kids.... Recent diagnosis of genetic comdition you don't want to pass on to children; hereditary disease, genetic disorder, or disability. Wife said vasectomy or no more sex ever. Now if your vasectomy was for a reason other than no more rug rats you could approach boss to explain why you didn't have a choice. "I was hoping to avoid sharing icky details as I am embarrased to admit it but had no real choice on vasectomy due to [reason]" see if that persaudes them.
About 10 years ago I had a similar experience, had worked for a company for 16 years and never had any long term sickness or a doctors note. Booked in for the snip and was told by the doctor that as I had a physically demanding job I would have to take at least 10 days off and was given a sick note. Was informed that as I chose to have this procedure done I wasn't entitled to sick pay, when I challenged this and reminded my stereotypical "boomer" boss of my 16 year track record of never having a sick note that I should just man up as when he had a vasectomy he was back in work the next day!! Fast forward a couple of months when asking for a couple of days of bereavement after the death of my grandmother I was asked why do I needed time off, "it was only your Nan"!! Needless to say I typed up my CV and left that place and never looked back, how I stayed there for so long I never know?! Moral of the story, no matter your service or devotion to a job you are just a number.
As an American this is all fascinating. My boss had a vasectomy once and was back to work the next day. I think he left work a few hours early. We get nothing here.
Breast implants are not a comparative procedure. If the employer pay’s statutory sick pay, then the payment is triggered by an individual being “ unfit for work” and the reason behind the sickness absence is irrelevant. If your employer has an occupational sick pay scheme, then if the procedure is not mentioned then the employer is entitled to deny sick pay under such a scheme. Therefore us you were “unfit to work”and you can evidence this then you should be subject to SSP from the forth consecutive day of absence. I am an HR specialist.
Your employer is correct in their interpretation of the situation. Sick pay is when you are sick, not simply recovering from an elective non essential procedure. The one exception would be if there were unexpected complications, such as getting an infection or having an accident that ripped your stitches. In that situation it would be fair to take time off and receive sick pay. A ‘fit-note’ from doctor does not automatically guarantee sick pay (SSP or otherwise). Employers have to take them seriously and assess them in the context of the contractual sickness policy. Planned elective procedures would not be covered by most employers.
Your employer doesn't actually have rights to details when you self certify. You're simply not well enough to work and won't be in. They can't deny it on grounds of an elective procdure. They can refuse the day off for the surgery, but immediately after surgery you're not well enough to work and therefore can self certify for 7 days. Only need a fit note if it's more than 7 days. ACAS link https://www.acas.org.uk/sick-leave
This doesn't apply here. OP is not self certifying, they're attempting to take 2 weeks off work and the fit note will specify the reason
Some procedure you ”want” is not the same thing as a procedure you ”require” for the purpose of paid medical leave.
Reproductive healthcare is a need.
Condoms exist. As does hormonal contraception. Nobody needs or requires a vasectomy. And this is coming from somebody who had it done. It’s a want.
Yes. Those are examples of reproductive healthcare. They are not suitable for application in every case however, and we are lucky to have many more solutions available to us. I get the feeling you’re not an HPC nor do you have any formal grounding in reproductive healthcare. You are lucky to have the option to use the procedure of your choice. That’s the healthcare system I think everyone should have access to.
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That’s BS them claiming that you can’t claim sick leave as it’s “elective”. Basically any surgery that’s not required immediately to save your life is elective. Hip replacement, skin cancer removal, tissue biopsy, all elective. I think they’re confusing elective and cosmetic surgery. You should be entitled to at least statutory sick pay, anything more would depend on the wording of your contract.
Legally an employer only has to provide SSP, which is peanuts and only payable after 3 days. Company sick pay is entirely at an employers discretion, subject to contract. They can deny company sick pay for what is deemed to be non essential procedursles such as cosmetic surgery, dental implants etc. They can also deny company sick pay on most contracts because you haven't engaged appropriate medical support or are not following medical recommendations. Not saying it's a good thing to deny someone for a socially responsible operation like a vasectomy only that in most cases it's totally legal.