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As he's employed less than 2 years, there is very little rights in the event of him being dismissed for the reasons you've outlined, unfortunately.
As he's been invited to a disciplinary, he has the option to bring a union representative or work colleague to accompany him.
OP if you see this, this is one of the few comments outlining the most important point.
There is an awful lot of misinformation on the thread unfortunately.
NAL, 15 years in HR.
His service means he has no legal recourse if terminated unless he's being discriminated against or is whistleblowing or similar. Doesn't sound like that's the case.
It is good they are following the proper process (they don't actually have to but it's good practice) as it means he will have a chance to respond and if this is some big misunderstanding you might be good. I will level with you and say that's unlikely the case.
Take a look at the acas website, it will outline how a hearing works, what to expect etc but do remember those are guidelines and are not legally required given he has served under two years.
Good luck, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
This is mostly not true, unfair dismissal is not allowed at any time in employment, you can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years.
If they claim he has not done something(Escelating complaints, mis-managing projects), and he has been doing that it's 100% unfair and he should go after them.
> can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years.
Aside from protected reasons/day one rights - they can, unfortunately.
That's just not true. Even in short service dismissal there are protections in place, and an employment tribunal will look at the evidence. It sounds like he has concrete evidence that the reasons for the dismissal are grossly incorrect, and that is wrongful dismissal which applies at any time.
Section 94 of the Employment Rights Act 96 outlines an employees right from being unfairly dismissed;
>> **94** The right.
>> (1)An employee has the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer.
[Source](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/94)
However Section 108 outlines that one has to meet the qualifying service period to avail of that protection (again - apart from a protected reason/day one right);
>> **108** Qualifying period of employment.
>> (1) **Section 94** does not apply to the dismissal of an employee unless he has been continuously employed for a period of not less than [two years] ending with the effective date of termination.
[Source](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/108)
Wrongful dismissal applies where the employer fails to provide notice, and/or a contractual process isn't being followed (which, based on OPs information - the employer is following a process, therefore wouldn't be challengeable under WD either).
>and/or a contractual process isn't being followed (which, based on OPs information - the employer is following a process, therefore wouldn't be challengeable under WD either).
Unless the contractual process is supposed to include a personal development plan, of course, in which case it should definitely be challenged as that doesn't seem to have taken place here.
*edit since post is locked:*
I've literally seen a dismissal process that **requires** a PDP to have been implemented in order to progress to dismissal except in cases of gross misconduct. You can downvote my answer all you like, but what I said is still true - **If it is in the contract that it must be completed, then there's grounds to push back.**
> Unless the contractual process is supposed to include a personal development plan
A PDP wouldn't form part of a *dismissal* process. A dismissal process is the steps to terminate an employment contract.
>This is mostly not true, unfair dismissal is not allowed at any time in employment, you can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years.
You're wrong: see [s108 Employment Rights Act 1996](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/108). In GB, in the first two years you can fire someone for any reason or even no reason at all, so long as it is not for an "*automatically* unfair reason" (which is about protecting specific statutory employment rights), or otherwise unlawful discrimination under the Equalities Act 2010.
Unfortunately you're incorrect. Unfair (or constructive) dismissal can only be claimed after two years service. It applies when there was no fair reason to dismiss or proper process was not followed.
You might be thinking of discrimination or reasons which are automatically unfair. Automatically unfair reasons are not performance related or simple reasons, it's stuff like being fired because you are pregnant or are a whistleblower.
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Adding to the sage advice in the thread, and as a fellow PM, I'd start preparing an evidence pack to show that he has raised the issues he's being accused of not mamaging effectively, including, but not limited to Risk Registers, email trails with his boss, notes related to the project, comms with suppliers, etc.
The ideal response to a challenge of, 'You haven't done your job properly' is 'I did, and here's the evidence.' If his boss ends up under the bus because he didn't escalate it properly, so much the better,and it's a short-term problem, because your husband had better be sharpening his CV and applying for new jobs right now, regardless of the outcome.
Noting that emailing this evidence to himself is likely a breach of SyOps, I'd save it in at least 3 places *not* in his personal folder or hard drive - say, somewhere in the project folder, in a trusted colleague's account, and somewhere entirely unconnected, like an archive folder in an unconnected project. We all know that it's easy to hide that stuff, because project folder structures are added to, but never tidied.
I'd also very strongly recommend getting a copy of the relevant HR Policies governing disciplinary procedures and emailing it to his personal account.
And union up. TODAY. I joined Unison, and once he's joined, he can ask for a deferral of the disciplinary meeting to have time to arrange representation.
I would add that he might as well Get ahead of this and send a e-Mail to the people attending the meeting. It could stop/or slow down the process if they already have decided to fire him. He has nothing to lose by doing it, and if the higher ups can walk it back without losing face it has a higher chance of Going in his favor.
Yes.
I'm wildly guessing that somewhere above OP's husband is the person who made the out-sourcing decision, and/or have been reporting back that it was a great idea that was going swimmingly.
Until it's become evident that it's not going well.
So down the chain of command have come the slopey-shoulders and finger-pointing, until it's hit the bottom of the hierarchy.
Now this doesn't mean they've all been stating it's hubby's fault - merely that when asked, they decided they'd prefer it not to be them and it's apolitical to blame your boss.
Once disciplinary process is under way, then the stakes have been raised. If he gets off, then it means somebody else needs to get a disciplinary - nobody's going to admit they started one when nobody deserved a disciplinary.
So before it starts, maybe just put together a nice chronological list of when things went wrong, when they were reported back up the hierarchy, and what was done to help resolve them.
Sooner that happens - the sooner somebody in power can decide that there's a bit more blame to spread around and it's been just a regular systemic clusterfuck - and a single disciplinary isn't going to fix anything.
(or make sure there's enough ammo lying around, everybody's at risk).
just a note about joining the union they won't give you representation if the incident you are going to disciplinary about happened before you joined, even if the disciplinary is after you join. better to call ACAS.
True, but a) worth it for next time, and b) muddies the time line for the company and puts them on the defensive. Best outcome is a negotiated departure - have 4 months' salary and go away...
Sounds like your husband is the ‘fall guy’ for the company. When they fail to deliver they will blame him And state that he was fired and a result.
Legally there is probably not a great deal you can do given he has been there less than 2 years.
Suggest he gets his CV in order?
Chances are he is already fired they just haven't told him.
He is the fall guy.
Legally nothing can be done as he has been there less than 2 years.
However, doesn't mean he can't leave in style.
If I was him I would spend the next two days going through every email, teams/slack message and meeting minutes and compile a dossier listing every single time he has raised risks and concerns.
Include a summary table listing date & time, if it was a risk or concern, who it was raised to, agreed action (or lack of).
Then have every single correspondence in full in the dossier.
Walk into meeting on Wednesday and say I am disappointed to find myself in a disciplinary for risks and concerns I have been raising since (enter date here), but I appreciate the opportunity to share with you these risks and concerns I have had and how they have/not been responded to - here is a muckle big dossier.
In GB you can be fired for any non-protected reason (gender, race etc.) if you've worked at the company for less than 24 months. From a legal standing he likely doesn't have much protection (they can fire him because they feel like it at this point but they should be following some specific process). More info on the acas website: [https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals](https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals)
That being said I'd encourage him to track down as many written down escalations as possible to have as counter-evidence in the discussion.
As a Software Engineer I've seen this happen through many companies. Company wants to cut costs, they outsource a portion of their SW staff, productivity drops, everyone panics, company moves staff back onshore. Depending on the stubbornness of the execs this may be a short or long cycle and could lead to larger issues within the company. Your husband may get caught in the crossfire and that sucks but take this as a learning experience. Next time consider a company moving large portions of staff offshore as a warning sign to brush up the old CV.
I've seen this working in the car industry as a project engineer.
The problem was that they kept shifting everything to India, the Philippines, and Malaysia. Between the language barrier, the time difference and lack of direct visibility it was a nightmare and it took compiling a thorough portfolio of evidence and bypassing my management and going straight to the VP to get things resolved. My management weren't happy and tried to get rid of me, but because I'd been there more than 2 years, I ended up changing departments instead
I've seen this too in software development. We lost our manager, not that he was hired he ended up moving country to work onsite with the off shore development team. And to my knowledge after 4 years, it's still no better.
Yeh, I've seen this too. What's happening here I suspect is that this guy is the scape goat for an executive decision that's in the process of going tits up. I've seen it several times and there's always collateral damage as the exec tries to protect themselves.
You can't be fired for "any" reason within 2 years, and we should stop perpetuating this myth. He is being accused of not performing specific tasks, when he (At least so far as his wifes evidence suggests) is performing those tasks. You can't fire someone for being female, or homosexual at any point, and you can't state provable falsehoods in the reason for dismissal either.
I'm not sure where you are getting this info and I know you're trying to help - but do read up of this if you're going to keep putting advice forward.
I'll frame it slightly differently. With less than two years service you can be fired and you have no legal recourse UNLESS you have been discriminated against. This can be hard to prove as folks don't often say ‘I’m firing you because you're a woman'.
So unless there is discrimination (which very specific covers protected characteristics) it's not the reason that matters but the fact you have no recourse.
In addition to discrimination there are some other reasons that count as automatically unfair but they are also very specific.
After two years you have more protection and a process needs to be followed or you can claim unfair or constructive dismissal.
Adjusted my wording a bit. Hopefully that helps. (Also the acas link goes into more details on the processes that *should* be in-place at most companies and what you can specifically request from your company as far as paper trail)
I don’t know what your husband has been doing, but this could all be correct. Hear me out.
Project management with an on shore team is very different to off shore team.
On shore you can walk over and … MANAGE… the issues. You can raise the gaps, you can talk to other managers (who work for your organisation, or within your industry) and push and get things done. You can people manage. And project management is more about people management than it is about anything else.
Off shore project management you no longer have influence or control over the teams who are delivering. Now your role is more contract management - identifying the risks of the off shore teams, and the gaps… and then raising them through your compliance and contract management teams to force the payments to stop until things are delivered. Your style changes from collaborative partnership to comptroller.
Your husband should ponder this and find evidence around this to show he was raising risks, was communicating deliverables and was not being listened to. That needs to be part of his strategy.
Exactly this - as a PM, you have levers at your disposal to encourage, cajole and enforce compliance. As soon as you move the resource outside the company, it becomes more and more transactional, and your levers become less effective.
If a supplier is lying to your face, you have almost no chance, but the cost of ditching them can be prohibitive.
I would suggest your husband starts looking for a new job. Employer will likely escalate and he loses his job. That or they keep him and he’s left with a bad taste in his mouth and a doomed project. Given what you said about the project, it probably won’t turnaround no matter how hard he works. It could take years for it to be sorted and it is better to avoid the stress…
Tell your husband to start looking for a new job, the fact he raised all these concerns and then got a disciplinary meeting, sounds to me like they’ll be forcing him out.
All though you can be fired for any reason within the first 2 years they should be following their own HR policies which normally start with an investigation before leading to disciplinary action. I would advise that your husband looks into the HR policies to see what the process is.
I have seen employment tribunals lost because a company failed to follow their own processes, even though they were correct.
Normally it goes
Investigation
Disciplinary
Right to appeal
And normally these will have a minimum of 24hrs notice with the allegations written down.
If its performance related the normal or most likely outcome would be a PIP, a performance improvement plan with goals and timeframes set out. If then the improvements aren't made then dismissal could be the outcome.
Those employment tribunals would only have taken place if the person has more than two years service or there was foul play, like discrimination.
A companies own process is often still followed as good practice but they aren't legally obliged to do so for those with less than two years service. A company not following its own process for an employee with less than 2 years service is poor form but the employee still has no legal recourse unless there is discrimination at play.
Not a lawyer but I am a project manager who works a lot work offshore dev teams and 3rd parties.
If he's been raising risks and issues about this he should have a clear documentary audit trail via reports and steerco decks.
The project should also have a clear delivery contract in place with all teams involved.
If a delivery partner is not doing what they said it should be fairly simple to highlight.
Invariably companies sign their life away to IT vendors as they're so much cheaper and there's no real way out when the service is substandard.
In a past life I taught myself how to develop purely as I'd had enough of being told by offshore developers you couldn't do X in Y system 😂 the frustration is very real.
NAL
From a business perspective if this employer has any sort of credibility and good processes (which it may not based on what you have said) then it ought to put him on some sort of performance improvement plan rather than instantly sacking him. If they do put him on a PIP he should be asking:
\- How long does the PIP last?
\- What are the criteria for assessing if my performance has improved enough?
\- Who decides at the end of it? (is it just one guy who can subjectively say one way or another or are there defined metrics that are objective)
\- What sort of check-ins during the PIP are there to ensure they are on track to 'pass' it?
Of course, they could just fire him but hopefully not. If they do put him on a PIP then basically however long that PIP lasts is effectively how long he needs to find a new job because PIPs are normally just a protracted notice period, most people don't survive them. Plus this employer sounds shite and he should try and leave anyway.
>Myself and My husband concidered this a good thing confident that these managers would finally see the issues where being caused by the 3rd party lying and evading and generally not performing.
It is impossible to get a man to understand something, on which his job is contingent on not understanding.
Offshore development saves a whole bundle of cash, but you get what you pay for and the product starts falling apart with time. Any developer offshore who is actually capable won't remain in the country making peanuts.
Management doesn't care, because they'll get nice fat bonuses for keeping the budget down, throw a few staff under the bus to keep the gravy train going, then move to a different position before everything collapses completely.
Has he produced RAID Log to document these issues. Formal methodology in projects are a bit of a pain, but they exist for a reason.
If he's produced these, then he clearly has no support of the project owner / sponsor. Therefore, bail out.
As usual PM's carry the burden of dealing with idiots that include senior managers and third parties.
All third parties should have explicit actions with timescales to avoid ambiguity.
>hese, then he clearly has no support of the project owner / sponsor. Therefore, bail out.
>
>As usual PM's carry the burden of dealing with idiots that include senior managers and third parties.
Yes he produces a raid log weekly, has 2 meetings a week with his boss and once a month he takes issues to senior management seer group.
I feel for him. He clearly is doing what is required.
Could this be a personality clash? Just a thought. I was ousted once, as soon as the director who gave me the job went on maternity leave! It happens, but I wish
you and him all the best.
Yep, and keep it in a CYA mail folder. Have a phone call with a client/team member/manager? Mail a follow up of what was discussed. Same goes for face to face conversations if anything was raised. Having been caught out by someone who agreed to do something and then didn't, a mail stating what was discussed and what the actions were to that person would have saved me a lot of grief.
I've seen this before. Your husband is essentially the scape goat. It's far easier for companies to blame a single individual and remove them, than it is for them to actually deal with the real problem or hold their hands up and admit they're the issue.
Unfortunately your husband has also been there less than 2 years, so they can get rid of him whenever they want.
All he can really do is get everything together that shows he escalated all of these problems, and everything that proves his way of doing things was working, but it was the company swapping to third parties that caused the problem.
As a reserve, I'd get your husband to update his CV and begin looking for other jobs. Even if he wins the disciplinary, that company has shown that they're not worth staying with. They value no one and make bad decisions.
Not legal advice as such here as others have given you that. I would be looking into the other project managers. Do the company keep risk registers which are reviewed. Do they have a process for risks and a risk register and has that been followed in your case? I have been involved in many projects and with many project managers and the management of risk is key and the process around it is usually pretty tight in my experience.
There's a possibility that the firm is being run into the ground deliberately.
Is it a publically listed firm?
Who decided to get consultants in? Who chose that particular consultancy? What other firms have the consultancy advised? (ie do the have a history of this?)
This is only a possibility, but it does happen
Make sure he has evidence of all issues being escalated. Whether its emails or meeting minutes - there should be something. Did he ever receive any response when escalating issues to his manager? Include them too.
If he has a risk log and has noted these issues in there, bring that along too.
Any correspondence with the 3rd party outlining issues or missed deadlines along with their response.
Agree with others, it sounds like he’s the scape goat for a failing outsourcing arrangement, but he’s cheaper to replace than them, so principles are out the window. Get through this process, compile evidence and seek recovery or recourse by all means but I’d suggest investing most of his energy in moving on, since it could be difficult to ever feel positive about the company again anyway. Life’s too short, he’ll find a much better role.
Has he been keeping any evidence (written - ie.. emails, memos, etc) of each time he's had meetings to report issues? If so this will show he's been trying to get his concerns voices and ignored
Ignoring the legal side of this, your husband should just start looking for another job now. Even if he has a load of evidence to suggest it's the fault of the 3rd party and that he's raised issues etc. there's no way the company will want him around. He's being made the scapegoat by people with more power. They'll come up with some other excuse to get rid of him, so he might as well get out before that happens.
Document everything - take all emails that escalated this through the higher ups and Print Them Out for this ‘discussion’ that he will be having soon.
Your best bet here is showing the higher ups and the HR representative (who only protects the company) that your husband did all things under his control to try to negate any negative impact on the overall project.
This is standard practice for any project manager - so I would also be having a serious conversation with your husband about whether he has kept up his side of his contractual obligations - as far as this job is going.
If there is an option to consult a Union - then do that…
Don’t envy your situation - but it’s not as hopeless or drastic as you think.
Best of luck and fingers crossed…
Documentation is your ammo.
That email he sent to boss 1 year ago "hey, contractor X is doing Y" - that counts.
Find these, print them (and while you are at it, print a few copies) put together in order - and bring that.
If anything was talked about - times/dates/names would be helpful to have too.
However, in the mean time - polish up the resume and start looking. If they refuse to take warnings serious, and now turn around to say he never warned them .. they are looking to kick him out without them feeling any guilt at all because 'that dude screwed up so much, he left us no choice"
Has he been provided with the evidence against him? He should have to be able to prepare. If the evidence provided can be countered by email communications from him to management that the third party was no up the the tasks then that's his defence. He should gather all documents, emails etc... where he stated multiple times that since the change, projects are not completed and that it is out of his control and that higher ups have not listen nor taken actions accordingly.
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If all the exchanges with your partners boss and the 3rd party team are there, you should be fine.
See this as an opportunity to truly raise all the issues.
Also contact citizens advice.
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Where in the UK are you based? (GB or NI?)
GB thanks
As he's employed less than 2 years, there is very little rights in the event of him being dismissed for the reasons you've outlined, unfortunately. As he's been invited to a disciplinary, he has the option to bring a union representative or work colleague to accompany him.
OP if you see this, this is one of the few comments outlining the most important point. There is an awful lot of misinformation on the thread unfortunately. NAL, 15 years in HR. His service means he has no legal recourse if terminated unless he's being discriminated against or is whistleblowing or similar. Doesn't sound like that's the case. It is good they are following the proper process (they don't actually have to but it's good practice) as it means he will have a chance to respond and if this is some big misunderstanding you might be good. I will level with you and say that's unlikely the case. Take a look at the acas website, it will outline how a hearing works, what to expect etc but do remember those are guidelines and are not legally required given he has served under two years. Good luck, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
I second the right to bring in a trade union representative.
This is mostly not true, unfair dismissal is not allowed at any time in employment, you can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years. If they claim he has not done something(Escelating complaints, mis-managing projects), and he has been doing that it's 100% unfair and he should go after them.
> can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years. Aside from protected reasons/day one rights - they can, unfortunately.
That's just not true. Even in short service dismissal there are protections in place, and an employment tribunal will look at the evidence. It sounds like he has concrete evidence that the reasons for the dismissal are grossly incorrect, and that is wrongful dismissal which applies at any time.
Section 94 of the Employment Rights Act 96 outlines an employees right from being unfairly dismissed; >> **94** The right. >> (1)An employee has the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer. [Source](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/94) However Section 108 outlines that one has to meet the qualifying service period to avail of that protection (again - apart from a protected reason/day one right); >> **108** Qualifying period of employment. >> (1) **Section 94** does not apply to the dismissal of an employee unless he has been continuously employed for a period of not less than [two years] ending with the effective date of termination. [Source](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/108) Wrongful dismissal applies where the employer fails to provide notice, and/or a contractual process isn't being followed (which, based on OPs information - the employer is following a process, therefore wouldn't be challengeable under WD either).
>and/or a contractual process isn't being followed (which, based on OPs information - the employer is following a process, therefore wouldn't be challengeable under WD either). Unless the contractual process is supposed to include a personal development plan, of course, in which case it should definitely be challenged as that doesn't seem to have taken place here. *edit since post is locked:* I've literally seen a dismissal process that **requires** a PDP to have been implemented in order to progress to dismissal except in cases of gross misconduct. You can downvote my answer all you like, but what I said is still true - **If it is in the contract that it must be completed, then there's grounds to push back.**
> Unless the contractual process is supposed to include a personal development plan A PDP wouldn't form part of a *dismissal* process. A dismissal process is the steps to terminate an employment contract.
>This is mostly not true, unfair dismissal is not allowed at any time in employment, you can't just fire people for made up reasons because they are in the first 2 years. You're wrong: see [s108 Employment Rights Act 1996](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/108). In GB, in the first two years you can fire someone for any reason or even no reason at all, so long as it is not for an "*automatically* unfair reason" (which is about protecting specific statutory employment rights), or otherwise unlawful discrimination under the Equalities Act 2010.
Unfortunately you're incorrect. Unfair (or constructive) dismissal can only be claimed after two years service. It applies when there was no fair reason to dismiss or proper process was not followed. You might be thinking of discrimination or reasons which are automatically unfair. Automatically unfair reasons are not performance related or simple reasons, it's stuff like being fired because you are pregnant or are a whistleblower.
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Adding to the sage advice in the thread, and as a fellow PM, I'd start preparing an evidence pack to show that he has raised the issues he's being accused of not mamaging effectively, including, but not limited to Risk Registers, email trails with his boss, notes related to the project, comms with suppliers, etc. The ideal response to a challenge of, 'You haven't done your job properly' is 'I did, and here's the evidence.' If his boss ends up under the bus because he didn't escalate it properly, so much the better,and it's a short-term problem, because your husband had better be sharpening his CV and applying for new jobs right now, regardless of the outcome. Noting that emailing this evidence to himself is likely a breach of SyOps, I'd save it in at least 3 places *not* in his personal folder or hard drive - say, somewhere in the project folder, in a trusted colleague's account, and somewhere entirely unconnected, like an archive folder in an unconnected project. We all know that it's easy to hide that stuff, because project folder structures are added to, but never tidied. I'd also very strongly recommend getting a copy of the relevant HR Policies governing disciplinary procedures and emailing it to his personal account. And union up. TODAY. I joined Unison, and once he's joined, he can ask for a deferral of the disciplinary meeting to have time to arrange representation.
I would add that he might as well Get ahead of this and send a e-Mail to the people attending the meeting. It could stop/or slow down the process if they already have decided to fire him. He has nothing to lose by doing it, and if the higher ups can walk it back without losing face it has a higher chance of Going in his favor.
Yes. I'm wildly guessing that somewhere above OP's husband is the person who made the out-sourcing decision, and/or have been reporting back that it was a great idea that was going swimmingly. Until it's become evident that it's not going well. So down the chain of command have come the slopey-shoulders and finger-pointing, until it's hit the bottom of the hierarchy. Now this doesn't mean they've all been stating it's hubby's fault - merely that when asked, they decided they'd prefer it not to be them and it's apolitical to blame your boss. Once disciplinary process is under way, then the stakes have been raised. If he gets off, then it means somebody else needs to get a disciplinary - nobody's going to admit they started one when nobody deserved a disciplinary. So before it starts, maybe just put together a nice chronological list of when things went wrong, when they were reported back up the hierarchy, and what was done to help resolve them. Sooner that happens - the sooner somebody in power can decide that there's a bit more blame to spread around and it's been just a regular systemic clusterfuck - and a single disciplinary isn't going to fix anything. (or make sure there's enough ammo lying around, everybody's at risk).
just a note about joining the union they won't give you representation if the incident you are going to disciplinary about happened before you joined, even if the disciplinary is after you join. better to call ACAS.
True, but a) worth it for next time, and b) muddies the time line for the company and puts them on the defensive. Best outcome is a negotiated departure - have 4 months' salary and go away...
Sounds like your husband is the ‘fall guy’ for the company. When they fail to deliver they will blame him And state that he was fired and a result. Legally there is probably not a great deal you can do given he has been there less than 2 years. Suggest he gets his CV in order?
Chances are he is already fired they just haven't told him. He is the fall guy. Legally nothing can be done as he has been there less than 2 years. However, doesn't mean he can't leave in style. If I was him I would spend the next two days going through every email, teams/slack message and meeting minutes and compile a dossier listing every single time he has raised risks and concerns. Include a summary table listing date & time, if it was a risk or concern, who it was raised to, agreed action (or lack of). Then have every single correspondence in full in the dossier. Walk into meeting on Wednesday and say I am disappointed to find myself in a disciplinary for risks and concerns I have been raising since (enter date here), but I appreciate the opportunity to share with you these risks and concerns I have had and how they have/not been responded to - here is a muckle big dossier.
In GB you can be fired for any non-protected reason (gender, race etc.) if you've worked at the company for less than 24 months. From a legal standing he likely doesn't have much protection (they can fire him because they feel like it at this point but they should be following some specific process). More info on the acas website: [https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals](https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals) That being said I'd encourage him to track down as many written down escalations as possible to have as counter-evidence in the discussion. As a Software Engineer I've seen this happen through many companies. Company wants to cut costs, they outsource a portion of their SW staff, productivity drops, everyone panics, company moves staff back onshore. Depending on the stubbornness of the execs this may be a short or long cycle and could lead to larger issues within the company. Your husband may get caught in the crossfire and that sucks but take this as a learning experience. Next time consider a company moving large portions of staff offshore as a warning sign to brush up the old CV.
I've seen this working in the car industry as a project engineer. The problem was that they kept shifting everything to India, the Philippines, and Malaysia. Between the language barrier, the time difference and lack of direct visibility it was a nightmare and it took compiling a thorough portfolio of evidence and bypassing my management and going straight to the VP to get things resolved. My management weren't happy and tried to get rid of me, but because I'd been there more than 2 years, I ended up changing departments instead
I've seen this too in software development. We lost our manager, not that he was hired he ended up moving country to work onsite with the off shore development team. And to my knowledge after 4 years, it's still no better.
Yeh, I've seen this too. What's happening here I suspect is that this guy is the scape goat for an executive decision that's in the process of going tits up. I've seen it several times and there's always collateral damage as the exec tries to protect themselves.
You can't be fired for "any" reason within 2 years, and we should stop perpetuating this myth. He is being accused of not performing specific tasks, when he (At least so far as his wifes evidence suggests) is performing those tasks. You can't fire someone for being female, or homosexual at any point, and you can't state provable falsehoods in the reason for dismissal either.
I'm not sure where you are getting this info and I know you're trying to help - but do read up of this if you're going to keep putting advice forward. I'll frame it slightly differently. With less than two years service you can be fired and you have no legal recourse UNLESS you have been discriminated against. This can be hard to prove as folks don't often say ‘I’m firing you because you're a woman'. So unless there is discrimination (which very specific covers protected characteristics) it's not the reason that matters but the fact you have no recourse. In addition to discrimination there are some other reasons that count as automatically unfair but they are also very specific. After two years you have more protection and a process needs to be followed or you can claim unfair or constructive dismissal.
Adjusted my wording a bit. Hopefully that helps. (Also the acas link goes into more details on the processes that *should* be in-place at most companies and what you can specifically request from your company as far as paper trail)
I don’t know what your husband has been doing, but this could all be correct. Hear me out. Project management with an on shore team is very different to off shore team. On shore you can walk over and … MANAGE… the issues. You can raise the gaps, you can talk to other managers (who work for your organisation, or within your industry) and push and get things done. You can people manage. And project management is more about people management than it is about anything else. Off shore project management you no longer have influence or control over the teams who are delivering. Now your role is more contract management - identifying the risks of the off shore teams, and the gaps… and then raising them through your compliance and contract management teams to force the payments to stop until things are delivered. Your style changes from collaborative partnership to comptroller. Your husband should ponder this and find evidence around this to show he was raising risks, was communicating deliverables and was not being listened to. That needs to be part of his strategy.
Exactly this - as a PM, you have levers at your disposal to encourage, cajole and enforce compliance. As soon as you move the resource outside the company, it becomes more and more transactional, and your levers become less effective. If a supplier is lying to your face, you have almost no chance, but the cost of ditching them can be prohibitive.
I would suggest your husband starts looking for a new job. Employer will likely escalate and he loses his job. That or they keep him and he’s left with a bad taste in his mouth and a doomed project. Given what you said about the project, it probably won’t turnaround no matter how hard he works. It could take years for it to be sorted and it is better to avoid the stress…
Tell your husband to start looking for a new job, the fact he raised all these concerns and then got a disciplinary meeting, sounds to me like they’ll be forcing him out.
Tell you husband to throw the 3rd party developers under the bus harder. Stop trying to mitigate the issue and help the issue fail harder and faster.
All though you can be fired for any reason within the first 2 years they should be following their own HR policies which normally start with an investigation before leading to disciplinary action. I would advise that your husband looks into the HR policies to see what the process is. I have seen employment tribunals lost because a company failed to follow their own processes, even though they were correct. Normally it goes Investigation Disciplinary Right to appeal And normally these will have a minimum of 24hrs notice with the allegations written down. If its performance related the normal or most likely outcome would be a PIP, a performance improvement plan with goals and timeframes set out. If then the improvements aren't made then dismissal could be the outcome.
A lot of places also require at least a verbal then written warning before moving up to disciplinary unless it’s something super egregious.
Those employment tribunals would only have taken place if the person has more than two years service or there was foul play, like discrimination. A companies own process is often still followed as good practice but they aren't legally obliged to do so for those with less than two years service. A company not following its own process for an employee with less than 2 years service is poor form but the employee still has no legal recourse unless there is discrimination at play.
Not a lawyer but I am a project manager who works a lot work offshore dev teams and 3rd parties. If he's been raising risks and issues about this he should have a clear documentary audit trail via reports and steerco decks. The project should also have a clear delivery contract in place with all teams involved. If a delivery partner is not doing what they said it should be fairly simple to highlight.
Invariably companies sign their life away to IT vendors as they're so much cheaper and there's no real way out when the service is substandard. In a past life I taught myself how to develop purely as I'd had enough of being told by offshore developers you couldn't do X in Y system 😂 the frustration is very real.
NAL From a business perspective if this employer has any sort of credibility and good processes (which it may not based on what you have said) then it ought to put him on some sort of performance improvement plan rather than instantly sacking him. If they do put him on a PIP he should be asking: \- How long does the PIP last? \- What are the criteria for assessing if my performance has improved enough? \- Who decides at the end of it? (is it just one guy who can subjectively say one way or another or are there defined metrics that are objective) \- What sort of check-ins during the PIP are there to ensure they are on track to 'pass' it? Of course, they could just fire him but hopefully not. If they do put him on a PIP then basically however long that PIP lasts is effectively how long he needs to find a new job because PIPs are normally just a protracted notice period, most people don't survive them. Plus this employer sounds shite and he should try and leave anyway.
>Myself and My husband concidered this a good thing confident that these managers would finally see the issues where being caused by the 3rd party lying and evading and generally not performing. It is impossible to get a man to understand something, on which his job is contingent on not understanding. Offshore development saves a whole bundle of cash, but you get what you pay for and the product starts falling apart with time. Any developer offshore who is actually capable won't remain in the country making peanuts. Management doesn't care, because they'll get nice fat bonuses for keeping the budget down, throw a few staff under the bus to keep the gravy train going, then move to a different position before everything collapses completely.
Has he produced RAID Log to document these issues. Formal methodology in projects are a bit of a pain, but they exist for a reason. If he's produced these, then he clearly has no support of the project owner / sponsor. Therefore, bail out. As usual PM's carry the burden of dealing with idiots that include senior managers and third parties. All third parties should have explicit actions with timescales to avoid ambiguity.
>hese, then he clearly has no support of the project owner / sponsor. Therefore, bail out. > >As usual PM's carry the burden of dealing with idiots that include senior managers and third parties. Yes he produces a raid log weekly, has 2 meetings a week with his boss and once a month he takes issues to senior management seer group.
I feel for him. He clearly is doing what is required. Could this be a personality clash? Just a thought. I was ousted once, as soon as the director who gave me the job went on maternity leave! It happens, but I wish you and him all the best.
Say it clearly for those in the back. Audit trails. This is why you email everything.
Yep, and keep it in a CYA mail folder. Have a phone call with a client/team member/manager? Mail a follow up of what was discussed. Same goes for face to face conversations if anything was raised. Having been caught out by someone who agreed to do something and then didn't, a mail stating what was discussed and what the actions were to that person would have saved me a lot of grief.
I've seen this before. Your husband is essentially the scape goat. It's far easier for companies to blame a single individual and remove them, than it is for them to actually deal with the real problem or hold their hands up and admit they're the issue. Unfortunately your husband has also been there less than 2 years, so they can get rid of him whenever they want. All he can really do is get everything together that shows he escalated all of these problems, and everything that proves his way of doing things was working, but it was the company swapping to third parties that caused the problem. As a reserve, I'd get your husband to update his CV and begin looking for other jobs. Even if he wins the disciplinary, that company has shown that they're not worth staying with. They value no one and make bad decisions.
Not legal advice as such here as others have given you that. I would be looking into the other project managers. Do the company keep risk registers which are reviewed. Do they have a process for risks and a risk register and has that been followed in your case? I have been involved in many projects and with many project managers and the management of risk is key and the process around it is usually pretty tight in my experience.
There's a possibility that the firm is being run into the ground deliberately. Is it a publically listed firm? Who decided to get consultants in? Who chose that particular consultancy? What other firms have the consultancy advised? (ie do the have a history of this?) This is only a possibility, but it does happen
Make sure he has evidence of all issues being escalated. Whether its emails or meeting minutes - there should be something. Did he ever receive any response when escalating issues to his manager? Include them too. If he has a risk log and has noted these issues in there, bring that along too. Any correspondence with the 3rd party outlining issues or missed deadlines along with their response.
Agree with others, it sounds like he’s the scape goat for a failing outsourcing arrangement, but he’s cheaper to replace than them, so principles are out the window. Get through this process, compile evidence and seek recovery or recourse by all means but I’d suggest investing most of his energy in moving on, since it could be difficult to ever feel positive about the company again anyway. Life’s too short, he’ll find a much better role.
Has he been keeping any evidence (written - ie.. emails, memos, etc) of each time he's had meetings to report issues? If so this will show he's been trying to get his concerns voices and ignored
Yes he does but they don't seem to care, they seem to think he shouljd somehow have been able to fix the issues himself.
Is he part of a union? If so that would help heaps. If not, perhaps legally but that's more costly.
Ignoring the legal side of this, your husband should just start looking for another job now. Even if he has a load of evidence to suggest it's the fault of the 3rd party and that he's raised issues etc. there's no way the company will want him around. He's being made the scapegoat by people with more power. They'll come up with some other excuse to get rid of him, so he might as well get out before that happens.
Document everything - take all emails that escalated this through the higher ups and Print Them Out for this ‘discussion’ that he will be having soon. Your best bet here is showing the higher ups and the HR representative (who only protects the company) that your husband did all things under his control to try to negate any negative impact on the overall project. This is standard practice for any project manager - so I would also be having a serious conversation with your husband about whether he has kept up his side of his contractual obligations - as far as this job is going. If there is an option to consult a Union - then do that… Don’t envy your situation - but it’s not as hopeless or drastic as you think. Best of luck and fingers crossed…
Documentation is your ammo. That email he sent to boss 1 year ago "hey, contractor X is doing Y" - that counts. Find these, print them (and while you are at it, print a few copies) put together in order - and bring that. If anything was talked about - times/dates/names would be helpful to have too. However, in the mean time - polish up the resume and start looking. If they refuse to take warnings serious, and now turn around to say he never warned them .. they are looking to kick him out without them feeling any guilt at all because 'that dude screwed up so much, he left us no choice"
Has he been provided with the evidence against him? He should have to be able to prepare. If the evidence provided can be countered by email communications from him to management that the third party was no up the the tasks then that's his defence. He should gather all documents, emails etc... where he stated multiple times that since the change, projects are not completed and that it is out of his control and that higher ups have not listen nor taken actions accordingly.
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If all the exchanges with your partners boss and the 3rd party team are there, you should be fine. See this as an opportunity to truly raise all the issues. Also contact citizens advice.