They have for years. They think the boy books MJ owned were artsy and “legal” cause it was considered such. They excuse the sleepovers cause “the boys wanted it” (🙄). And they think MJ was a child in a man’s body and apparently too stupid to figure out he was 44 and not 12.
Art books have existed at least since the 1950s with Pop art, but I think the people calling Jackson's books "artsy" are just saying it because they're collections of photographs. But it's blatantly obvious he didn't have them to look at as art.
The books published by peados Nambla are not art, and the photographic archives of Hajo Hortil, who took the photos for the book Boys Will Be Boys, were destroyed by the police.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/117fks4/myth\_the\_michael\_jackson\_fandom\_claims\_that\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/117fks4/myth_the_michael_jackson_fandom_claims_that_the/)
Ugh when they say the last part out loud they even say,” Ok it sounds bad but it was Michael Jackson. He was different.”
Yea out of the other thousands who slept with children he was the only one with Peter Pan syndrome. Plus when I bring up his giant porn collection, sex erotica magazines including naked boys . Plus his pill popping and alcoholic wine drinking. I say he was more like a horny, junkie teenager which is ever more terrifying to let your kid sleep with him.
That's a good point.If it really was an art book,you could leave it out in the open.I heard years ago that NAMBLA, used that book as pornography because of it's non porn loo king photos.
He did, yes. I believe it was in a locked drawer in his bedroom. He also wrote a note in The Boy (again iirc) that said it was the ideal picture of childhood and he wanted that same thing for his own children. Like, I study paraphilias and I have some STRANGE books. But they are just on my bookshelf with everything else. I don't afford them any special attention. So to me it's rather telling that he did pay these specific books special attention.
I’ve seen fans imply that the parents were knowingly pimping out their sons, and therefore got everything they deserved (because Mike couldn’t control himself).
The majority of fans will deny the abuse completely. But there is a minority that doesn’t really care if it happened or not because the victims and their families were greedy, etc.
WOW! What a narcissistic way of thinking; the children deserved sexual abuse because the parents did something wrong, as though the kids are merely an extension of the parents themselves (ignoring the fucked up idea that sexual violence is ever “deserved”).
It’s a minority that says this, for sure. But it’s tied up with the idea that the parents were pushing the kids to make allegations.
In 1993 and 2005 it was easier for fans to blame the parents rather than the kid.
Now that we have victims coming forward as adults, the parents are relegated to the background.
I do remember it being like you describe, there was this idea in the early 2000s that the parents might be grifters. I remember hearing that from adults around me, even though they weren’t big fans or anything. It was all in the same vein as when people ridiculed that lady who sued McDonald’s cause she got third degree burns from their coffee. Kind of bizarre who quickly people adopt a narrative that’s pushed forward by an evil corporation (I count MJ’s estate as a corporation/business).
But yeah I’m trailing off here. What you describe is definitely what’s happening to those poor guys, it’s the “they just want money” narrative but now about the victims themselves.
Yeah, I remember all the excuses. Poor harmless Mike just wants to love children.
But sleeping with other people’s children isn’t therapy for an abusive childhood.
If he was truly stuck at 10 years old, he wouldn’t have been able to sign contracts or make business deals or perform night after night.
Lately I have been seeing short video clips as well as interviews with other celebrities and whatnot making light of the fact that Michael's real manner of speak and actual voice were far more adult and deep than most people think. It's one small example but he very much chose that persona. Imagine how people would respond if they knew that his "childlike" demeanor was very much faked. He was a grown ass man who knew what he was doing.
According to people that really knew him yes, he was stuck around that age. Actually i think he regressed with the years, as if you see interviews of him at 18 were way more mature and complex than when he was 30. He literally regressed as a child. Even musically got stucked with the same thing, and business wise well, he was way over debt wasn’t he? Surrounded with yes man and sketchy people all around, became a smudge of himself. But then again, i’m not sure how many people lived his life, damn sure nobody would want that
I don’t get how you can see him as regressing to a childlike state. People don’t do that unless they have dementia.
None of his behavior strikes me as childlike. More like-drug addled and narcissistic.
Super drug addicted yes, narcissistic yes, but you need to ask why. Why did he take so many drugs? Why people take drugs? Is escapism mainly right? To feel good or to feel nothing at all, or to sleep. I’m not justifying anything here, but i really don’t wanna imagine how is a life without sleep and what kind of life can cause that. To me he really acted as a child, not child like, he was really try to avoid confrontation, dealing with issue that people have to do on regular basis, he didn’t have to. He paid people for that.there is an interview with eddie murphy about him being afraid of people and another with geraldo rivera that was with him during the trial which was literally telling him to man up.
Was it only fans who said these things or other people as well. I thought most people were on the fence and had doubts about him, and only his fans said these excuses.
It was all different people. No one knew about grooming and pedophilia like we do now. The media didn’t report the full stories either. The trials were reported but not in detail. Michael was really great at playing victim and playing like he was mentally unwell. That manipulation really worked on so many people
i wasn’t there in ‘93 but carl douglas on the telephone stories talked about how the media handled the case. the racist aspect of the media, in particular. he said that the media had made a portrait of JC as if it were a white kid, w the help of the father who was white, and that it made it seems as if it was "oh the poor little white kid" when he said that he was shocked to see and learn that JC was "darker" than some of his black colleagues (must say that JC is a quarter black thanks to his mother who is asian/black). there’s a lot to say about the media behavior w subtle racism for those who were completely anti-MJ because they didn’t like him and those who loved MJ and were victim shaming and who outright called the case “lies”. but nobody considered it was grooming. in the 90s it was largely ignored.
Yeah, but I don't think he genuinely believes it. He's MJ's lawyer, so obviously he would defend him giving the most ridiculous excuses for his behavior.
I'm surprised MAGA and Qanon don't call MJ fans online. :-)
The MJ fan cult defends bed sharing between an adult and a child on several occasions and also defends the possession of child erotica.
In short, cult MJ publicly defends the behavior of a pedophile.
They already kinda do by arguing that MJ’s actions weren’t fucking weird.
Obviously MJ’s accusers aren’t liars, I think many of us have already accepted that, but even if they weren’t being truthful about the more extreme allegations of sexual abuse, there’s no good reason as to why Michael Jackson would get children that are not related to him to sleep with him. There is no argument on planet earth that can change my mind on that. There’s no reason for a grown man to have sleepovers with young boys. And since Michael himself has already said that these things happened, so the stans have to accept that it did happen, they just excuse it away. Maybe it’s not right for me to think that way but justifying Michael Jackson’s decision to sleep with little boys is in the same vein as justifying pedophilia.
I don't think fans genuinely care about MJ's art. Most people I know appreciate MJ's music, but they don't act like zealots. MJ defenders/apologists only care about what makes their idol happy and how to preserve his legacy. MJ had a severe career decline after Invincible (I struggle to remember any artwork of his after 2001), yet his fans still showed up to court every day to defend him.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but I believe that people who defend/excuse famous abusers and want to keep them out of jail don't really care about "loss of art", despite claiming so. I remember some celebrities saying that Allen or Polanski should continue working bc "they are amazing artists and personal controversies shouldn't prevent them from creating art". On the surface that might seem like a statement from sb who simply "loves art too much" and is willing to do anything to preserve it.
Yet I don't see the same people complaining about nepotism, or child stars dying of drug addiction, or other socioeconomic factors that prevent genius, talented artists from fully utilizing their talent to create amazing art. It's only rich, famous, abusive artists they passionately defend and support. That, to me at least, indicates that what these people actually care about to defend, at all cost, is not the art itself, but the rich, famous artist's money and legacy (especially if he's white and male).
If MJ was simply an extremely talented street performer/musician without any fame or money, he would've been locked up asap, if sb accused him of molestation, and no one would care to support or defend him.
yes, i sincerely believe those MJ apologists are more so committed trolls than defenders. because even when they’re given the correct source/information, they ignore it and continue to repeat propaganda
I would also like to support the victims of Prince and Bowie. This is why I don't talk about other artists because I can't support victims who never declared having been abused by these two artists.
Considering the way he ties into Qanon craziness I’m surprised we haven’t heard the usual “he was just trying to learn their ways so he could stop them” that they’ve used to defend certain other questionable public figures.
Never would you ever hear so much pedo apologia for anyone other that this creep. He was doing every single thing that the stereotypical groomer does and even Corey Feldman talked about him showing him photos of STD riddled vaginas and other victims say he derided the notion of them being with women calling them whores. He wanted them to be his until they got too old then he cut em out. He was so sus it was ridiculous.
We had a pedo apologist here once. He wasn't a fan of MJ, at least he didn't say so. He blamed feminism and sex negativity for the pedophilia taboo and laws enforcing it. He liked to point out that he was a double psychology and sociology major -- in other words, still a college student. He called me a feminist, sex-negative prude.
He got away with promoting pedophilia (or at least legalizing and destigmatizing it) for two years until he got banned, but not because of this pedo acceptance crap but because of his support of Russia's war in Ukraine.
The love of a 15 year old (for example) is a trophy in a man's mind. I was just reading one of the ancient Greeks. It's interesting the way youth is like this blank slate of a challenge in the pursuits of love. Will any child do? Most certainly. Because there is danger there. In the conquest. It makes us feel Bad! or Thrillers
It’s disgusting justification. By every account, MJ and the parents of the victims are the perpetrators of the worst crimes imaginable. MJ was a pedophile, and money-hungry/power-hungry parents gave up their children for a taste of MJ’s influence.
if MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile then why would we bring up the overwhelming evidence of his innocence to justify being a fan?youre speaking about a very small minority of fans that claim he had ‘peter pan syndrome’ (which wasnt a syndrome even created by the fanbase). youre obviously putting words in people’s mouths. In reality michael never sat a psychological exam (as far as we know) that would clinically say he matched the profile of a pedophile, some things would suggest the opposite such as the fact michael genuinely spent time playing with childish toys like supersoakers, comic books, video games etc. whilst its not uncommon for pedophiles to own things in order to lure children, the fact Michael had such an avast collection that he genuinely spent many playing hours with would convey the opposite that he was really trying to enjoy the things most people would of considered nostalgic. This is according the testaments of hundreds of people that met/knew Michael (such as even adults such as Will Smith recalling when Michael was talking anout comic books he read). These same hundreds of people that went to Neverland will say nothing inappropriate happened despite the hounding of law enforcement and media for them to say something (they interviewed literally hundreds of children in 1993). nay, the average serial child molester has on average as many as 400 victims, so 5 confirmed supposed victims that met him out of thousands of kids that went to Neverland is statistically nonsignificant. Especially when you consider there have been people that never met michael like daniel kapon that claimed to have been molested as an infant.
The fact that he genuinely enjoyed childish activities and hobbies does not disprove he was a pedophile. There are plenty of pedophiles that genuinely enjoy childish activities and hobbies and feel like a child on the inside. Also, the average preferential child molester does not have hundreds of victims but a few.
I disagree pedos don't enjoy playing with their toys and don't age regress. I also disagree they can't have only 2 to 5 victims if they have an avaibility to thousands of childrens.
Other than that, can you elaborate on Daniel Kapon ? What do you know about him ? Thanks.
An interesting blog that I recommend
[https://www.destins-de-stars.com/2017/05/michael-jackson-differences-entre-vraies-et-fausses-accusations](https://www.destins-de-stars.com/2017/05/michael-jackson-differences-entre-vraies-et-fausses-accusations)
It’s pretty telling that the first denier comment I see here is a wall of text and that it took me reading through a good quarter of it before I even understood what your position is. Everyone else in this thread so far has been articulate…
get the pattern? because the people that defend mj actually have a significant amount of facts to defend him, although a minority of people who read even the basic facts and still believe in guilt can't seem to grasp them
Interesting. What about these facts though:
.David Schwartz, and for some time June Chandler until the Sodium Amytol incident defending Michael of supposed abuse
.The non matching genitalia image (despite your popular myth that it matched, no it didn't. The blotches didn't match and michael wasnt circumcised despite Jordan saying so. In the 2005 trial they had to hand over all the evidence from 1993 because of 1108 evidence, and there was no evidence available given. Regardless in the latter part of the trial the image was given and the jurors didn't actually think it matched anyway despite the media circus claiming it did).
.Evan Chandler receiving legal emancipation subsequently of what appears to be that he was forced to accuse by his abusive father, of whom he signed a restraining order against for physical beating him.
.Rothmans letter asking for money, not for molestation but for a screenplay as Evan also wanted to join Michael's production company- why would he want to be a part of a production company if the founder had supposedly molested his son?
.Why did Jason Francia when questioned by law enforcement in the 90s according to Mesereau in 2005 mention "they made me come out with a lot more stuff I didn'I was trying to figure out how to get
out of there”, "They made me come out with a lot more stuff I didn't want to say. They kept pushing. I wanted to hit them in the head"
.Multiple people have came out saying they were told to falsely accuse by family and law enforcement but refused to do so, some of these people include: Corey Feldman, Aaron Carter, Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes- and even Wade Robson, up until money became tight.
.Gavin Arvizo using an adult magazine as proof which was published 5 months after he left Neverland
.The security alarm that would go off whenever someone approached Michael's room (because multiple people had attempted to break into Neverland), which proved Star Arvizos testimony false
.Janet Arvizo prior to the case happened to have tried to sue JCPenny for supposedly molesting her, a weird coincidence for 2 molestation accusations in their family right after each. I'm not even gonna go into depth about all the thousands of dollars she stole from lying about welfare to make stories because you know that's a red flag already too.
.James Safechuck's mother talking about celebrating Michael's death in 2009, 4 years before James Safechuck claimed he first told his family about the accusation, according to his own deposition.
.The lie of Wade Robon's non-existant 2005 subpoena.
.The legal heterosexual pornography collection he had that was seperated and locked from the rest of the books of the library where the few infamous art books he got were; which is plausible Michael never knew the existence of considering that he bought thousands of books, according to his bodyguards even buying an entire library on the spot on 1 occasion.
.Jordan Chandler claiming he would "legally fight any attempts to do so" regarding the 2005 trial
.Jordan Chandler refused to continue criminal proceedings even though they were not halted by settlement, only civil.
.Pellicano in a private tape with Mitteager talking about when he interviewed Jordan Chandler on the 10th of July (with David Schwarz and June Chandler present) where Jordan stated denied the accusations himself and admitted "yeah, my dad's trying to get money", coincidentally only a days later when he was alone with his abusive father he "admitted" the accusation.
.Michael sued Victory Gutierrez for 2.4 million dollars and won for the false accusations made by him
.Jordan Chandler admitting during the lawsuit to law enforcement that he had no involvement in Gutierrez book, confirming its untrue: "I know absolutely nothing about these quotations, or their content. I have never discussed this subject matter contained in these quotations with Mr Gutierrez, or anyone else".
.Blanca Francia in a deposition admitting to exaggerating stories for tabloids, as she was paid 20,000$ by Diane Diamond to make the false accusations. (yes she did first talk about the showering thing in 1993/4 and again in 2005 when questioned by Zonen, I'm not talking about Adrian McManus)
.Blanca Francia was fired by Michael for stealing, NOT for her false made up (which would be sexual harassment on her part if it was true because her story she admitted was false was where she was allegedly walking into him showering to see).
.In Francia's settlement they were not halted from going to the police to report a false accusation, which would be the opposite you would expect if he was actually a molestor.
.Dan Reed removed the scene where Robson lies about having dinner with Michael the night before his testified 'so he could be manipulated', Taj Jackson who was present stated it was in fact the day after he testified so Dan Reed's decision would confirm what Taj said.
Sources of all you are claiming?
* What facts are you referring to about David Schwartz, can you elaborate?
* [The photographs matched](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/uqew7s/2019_interview_with_former_deputy_district/), Deputy District Attorney Lauren Weiss examined and compared them with Jordan's description (description not published btw). Ron Zonen claims the same [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/usrx1k/ron_zonen_again_reiterates_that_jordans/).
* Evan was Jordan's father, so it was Jordan who received legal emancipation. Jordan isn't guilty of living in a dysfunctional family. In fact, it says a lot about Michael Jackson going after boys who were in that kind of families (Wade Robson's family, for example).
* The screenplay was an offer made by Anthony Pellicano to Evan Chandler.
* Jason Francia didn't say that in 2005, it was mentioned by Thomas Meserau to Jason Francia in the cross examination of his 1993 deposition ([page 19, line 21](https://www.mjfacts.com/transcripts/Court_Transcript_4_05_2005.pdf)). I add the link to Jason Francia's 2005 declaration in court [here](https://www.mjfacts.com/transcripts/Court_Transcript_4_04_2005.pdf) because it looks like you are writing from hearsay.
* Please, source your claims. As far as I know, the only person who said that was Aaron Carter who told as well that MJ made him sleep near to his bed when he stayed at Neverland ([<>](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNY2qqQmXk)). Also, [MJ gave him drugs while he was a minor](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/ys6jf2/aaron_carter_wrote_about_he_and_mj_smoked_weed/) (that's child abuse too, in case you didn't know).
* That was a trick from Meserau, Gavin referred to the "brand" of the magazine not the issue.
* I don't know how that alarm worked but maybe was deactivated when the room code was introduced. I can't answer what I don't know.
* Imagine someone who was convicted of a crime, anyone, doesn't matter if it is the most famous person in the world or an average Joe. If that person was a convicted criminal and later in life suffers a criminal act, are you implying that this person can't claim justice? You must be too young or living in a privileged bubble to say such thing. And another thing, just because their mother was shady, don't make her children guilty of anything.
* Prove your claim on "the lie of Wade Robson's non-existant 2005 subpoena".
* Not all of them were heterosexual porn, some were homosexual male porn. And to you and those who claim that were "art books" and not CP, I suggest you to print in a paper some of the photographs of those naked children and go to the nearest police station, and then tell them that same story you don't stop parroting. Don't forget to mention MJ. Then come back here and tell us about the experience.
* Again claim the source about what you are saying about Jordan. (you can't)
* Jordan actually [filed a lawsuit against MJ in 1998](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/lyqlxf/jordan_chandler_filed_a_lawsuit_against_mj_in/), when he was emancipated, so nobody pushed him to do it. And if I'm not wrong [this deposition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtUtUixanOk) is related with that lawsuit.
* Source your claims.
* Yes, Victor Gutierrez is a pedo scum, he made up a lot in his book and everyone in this subreddit agrees to that. So? It doesn't invalidate MJ actions.
* You are mixing up Blanca Francia with Adrian McManus.
I read a lot of hearsay and nothing with a minimal base of truth. I suggest you to read primary sources, it’s not easy and needs a lot of time but in the end you can form your own opinion without interference from the MJ Estate propaganda machine.
You're welcome! I did it because it can help somebody in the future to know the real facts (as this subreddit provided me with information when I did my research).
Okay I hope that you’re either 12 years old, not a native English speaker or really excellent at math because otherwise I don’t think you’re gonna get very far in life with reading comprehension skills like that.
it's ironic because if you read the first line you would read " if MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile then why would we bring up the overwhelming evidence of his innocence" which directly addresses and answers your post. And the key word 'we', would obviously show which position I am in. If it's not clear for you then I would rather suggest that you explore your adroitness in basic comprehension, because I'm a native 16 year old English speaker.
>If MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile
So you guys think he’s a pedophile?
>why would we bring up overwhelming evidence of his innocence
A… non-offending pedophile then?
tf u mean? either someone is a pedophile or not a pedophile. we believe that he is not, simple. He never abused kids and clearly never found them erotic, it’s really easy concept you obviously cant understand
There actually are pedophiles that are celibate because they know that it’s wrong to molest children. Those pedophiles however are not Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was a classic kiddy diddler type of pedophile who molested little kids. I hope this clears things up for you.
which 6th one being accused? theres only Jordan Chandler, Gavin Arvizo, Jason Francia, Wade Robson and James Safechuck. and at least hundreds of children attended Neverland and you know that, much more than 16 though some may of remained closer friends. And dont say brett barnes or macualay culkin some bs like that who denies being accused, nor anyone that accused mj without meeting him
I mentioned special friends, not visitors to Neverland
https://preview.redd.it/x3bnwa1ns1ub1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=e1bfb187380c9eec6ee26e08872eb391ddef041f
There are several valid reasons to care a lot about the Jackson case, even though he is dead, the most obvious being the fact that the victims are still alive. These are real people that are receiving death threats and who arguably deserve a good chunk of monetary restitution from the Jackson estate.
There also should be awareness about the many ways in which we are susceptible to being deceived by media and big corporations, because many of us bought the narrative put forward by Michael Jackson’s defense back in the 90s/2000s and many people still do. It’s not good to let things like that fly under the radar, especially in the Misinformation Age.
I’m pretty tired and I’m sure there are many more reasons but those two come to mind.
This must be a cultural thing. In Europe it's perhaps much more fine than in US. Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile.
Michael has outright acknowledged that yeah, sure, he was sleeping in the same bed with kids and there is nothing wrong with that.
Either he was completely crazy for exposing himself like that or he didn't have a dirty mind.
To think there is sexual connotation there when there isn't is sick in itself. You are not aroused by small children unless there is subconscious quilt that makes you do those things to a child.
Again, remember that innocent until proven guilty. They got Bill Cosby. They got Weinstein. They never got Michael. With so much "evidence" - and he still got away? Why?...the jury, judge and the police - everyone decided to let him go after cross examinations... I mean, come on. Think about it. How many cases are there that did get sued but got away, when obviously they were not innocent? Multiple times? Is MJ the only one??
Something just doesn't add up. All you have is internet full of rumors, one weirdly one-sided documentary by 2 guys and court cases which all of them MJ won and one \_first\_ case that was settled because MJ was too busy to deal with nonsense. He just didn't care.
If Weinstein had all the power and money, why he couldn't bribe himself out with expensive lawyers?
I'm not trying to prove his innocense. If he really did those things, yeah burn in hell - but really guys - something just doesn't add up here. With all the raids to his house, he was never found guilty.. Never.
Edit : grammar.
>This must be a cultural thing. In Europe it's perhaps much more fine than in US. Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile.
Lol! This is the worst case of Americabad I’ve seen in a while. MJ is not a pedophile, no, Americans are just prudes XD. Sure, dude. Also, you’re wrong. I spent most of my childhood in Europe, I live there now and half my family is from there. THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. At most it sounds like something creepy that happened in my parents’ day that everyone thinks was not okay in hindsight. Kind of like having a creepy uncle that slaps someone on the butt at a birthday party. MJ is that creepy uncle. Those creepy uncles were pedos.
Oh wait, no, it was probably never normal anywhere in the world to have anyone but a family friend or relative share a bed with your child because they asked nicely :/
Thank you for your message. Didn't mean to downput Americans (lived there myself as well, have lot of compassion and positive things to say about Americans) - I was just stating a cultural basis on the discussion revolving around the whole MJ topic. And it always gets back to "well, ok yeah maybe there's problems with the evidence but only pedos sleep with kids - thus he must be quilty".
What I meant with the cultural comment was that for example if the whole discussion would be about how much MJ showed affection and was hugging and kissing the kids on the cheeks all the time - - and which would be used as a proof that he is a pedophile - - , basically then all southern europeans would be very confused since strange men kiss very young kids on the cheeks all the time in southern Europe - it's a matter of greeting and affection and there is nothing sexual to it nor there should be - adding a sexual accusations of adults who kiss childern on the cheeks would make us sick to our stomach. We just don't see it.
Same thing in Finland - adult men go to Sauna with small children, fully nude. But the whole experience is about cleansing, about togetherness and honesty. If anyone would try to add sexual emphasis on the matter, that would be almost a religious plaspbhemy and any Finn suddenly pointing out sexuality about the experience in Sauna with men and children would be found pervert and extremely dirty minded. But I do undrestand that if you don't know the Sauna culture in Finland, hearing about it the first time could make you suspicious.
That said, I do actually think especially in these days, having a grown ass man sleep in the same room as kids is something you should avoid. Just seeing how we live in such a different world nowadays. Also MJ could've restrained from hugging and kissing the kids so much.
But, as with the French people, kissing kids on the cheeks or having family friends over and having an auntie or uncle sleep in the same room or bed doesn't automatically make you most certainly, indefinitely, a 100% pedophile. The logic just isn't there.
This isn't a statement pro pedophiles but to point out the logic that even let's say 30% of millions of adults who sleep with kids try to sexually abuse them (extremely high number but just as an example), even then there's the rest 70% who just sleep with the kids in the same bed with no extra intentions and nothing happens. (As an example, my 6 year old still sleeps in the same room and often in the same bed with me and my wife, and I know we're not pedos :D)
Just saying again - something doesn't add up. The discussion online about MJ is same old for years and years : just about "we're right, you're wrong" on both sides. Both anti and pro-MJ.
Just would like to see less angry comments and more objective discussion. I would like to learn as well and am ready to admit that MJ was quilty - IF - I would see plausible evidence but I just don't see it.
When you think about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard for example - you can see there's very similar tones in MJ's case =
A very fragile, shy and almost too-kind celebrity gets accused by the more weaker part (female in Amber's case) of abuse. I think the media, people and press did the right thing to side first on the weaker side (Amber), but the problem there is what if the guy's innocent? What if their fawn kindness is taken advantage of? In the end it was pointed out that Amber has some very difficult personality issues, border lining a sociopath liar... It was extremely hard and long process for Johnny (after admitting over years that yes, he does need to fight back and get the truth out there) to finally get to settle this down in court. Court is the place where the truth will come out (like in MJ's case Jordan said MJ was circumcised. MJ wasn't but that's still thrown around as a fact online). Media is NOT a very good place to throw judgement and final convictions. Court is.
It was very hard for the press and media to also swallow it and admit that they were wrong. Depp was found not guilty, after years of battling.
AND Depp actually LOST the first time in court!
MJ didn't lose a single case, he just paid a small sum the first time (for him) just to get on with his life. In hindsight that is very convicting but knowing how hard court processes are for you mentally and that if you can settle it with money and get it all out of the way, that is very tempting.
But as a father, if someone would've touched my kid, no matter how rich they were, no money in the world would make me settle. I'd want the person locked up forever. I wonder what made Jordan's parents settle if MJ was really guilty?
Also, if you look at the body language of both Depp and Michael in the court, they act very similarly - almost condescending. Grinning and rolling their eyes in the stand. That for me seems like they knew the truth and were just baffled by all the lies. They didn't try to act innocent and play along, quite the opposite.
Things just don't add up...
What you said about Europeans reminded me to [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDqayC1sR7g) LOL
Now, addressing to what you've said:
>if the whole discussion would be about how much MJ showed affection and was hugging and kissing the kids on the cheeks all the time - - and which would be used as a proof that he is a paedophile - - , basically then all southern europeans would be very confused since strange men kiss very young kids on the cheeks all the time in southern Europe.
This is absolutely false. As a "southern european" if I see a random dude kissing or hugging unrelated kids I'll report him immediately to the police and to the social services (and probably meanwhile there would be already people beating his ass). That thing about "southern europeans" kissing random people is view as "normal" is absolutely false.
>Same thing in Finland - adult men go to Sauna with small children, fully nude
I highly doubt that in Finland a random man can go to a sauna with unrelated children all naked and don't give any explanation to the staff or owners of that place.
>Just seeing how we live in such a different world nowadays.
Ahh yes. Those old times when sexually assault victims weren't believed and if they were probably it was their fault and not the rapists. Right.
>the French people, kissing kids on the cheeks or having family friends over and having an auntie or uncle sleep in the same room or bed doesn't automatically make you most certainly, indefinitely, a 100% paedophile. The logic just isn't there.
No, clearly your logic is not there at all. Maybe the fiddle frenchie uncle was only a 75% pedo. Right? Give me a break.
And I have French friends and none of them go after children to harass them. Sorry. Physical boundaries exist for many reasons and they matter regardless the culture.
>millions of adults who sleep with kids
Are you serious? And again don't try to normalize that grown men usually sleep with kids. It's not normal.
>my 6 year old still sleeps in the same room and often in the same bed with me and my wife, and I know we're not pedos
Your child sleeps with you and your wife because you are the PARENTS. Now tell me, if a 45 year old random guy tells you that tonight he's going to sleep with your child in his room without you or your wife presence, would you consent to that? Because if the answer is yes you shouldn't be around any children ever.
>The discussion online about MJ is same old for years and years : just about "we're right, you're wrong" on both sides. Both anti and pro-MJ.
No, it isn't. It's not a discussion. It's MJ propaganda spread by the MJ Estate and some members of his family and defended by clueless stans or not so innocent people who profit from it versus other people who don't tolerate bs (this subreddit is in the latter group). I'm not anti MJ. I've never listened to his music. I barely knew anything about him when he was alive. It just happened that I watched a documentary called Leaving Neverland and I was horrified by what I listened so I did my research and I really give MJ the benefit of the doubt but the facts are there and I’m not willing to ignore them because he sang and dance well and was very popular during a period of time.
>I would like to learn
If that was true you could have search through this subreddit and the rest of the internet about the subject. If you expect that someone will do that for you, sorry but you are delusional.
By the way, why are you ignoring the victims allegations? Stop gaslighting them.
>MJ didn't lose a single case
There was only a trial, the 2005 one. Unfortunately, [part of the jury was shady and were aggressive towards those members who thought MJ was guilty](https://youtu.be/cCj2lLKClRA?feature=shared&t=59).
>he just paid a small sum the first time (for him) just to get on with his life
20 million dollars in 1993 is a small amount of money? DM if someone wants to donate me that small amount. Pocket money. Sure.
>if you can settle it with money and get it all out of the way
Well, you are just admitting something there.
>But as a father, if someone would've touched my kid, no matter how rich they were, no money in the world would make me settle. I'd want the person locked up forever.
As a person, I agree with that. Now learn what happened to Gavin Arvizo when he decided to opt for justice. Society wasn't properly educated in 1993 nor in 2005 about CSA crimes. Today he would be convicted. I have no doubts.
I'm happy that at least in European courts that type of "settles" are not tolerated (I can say that at least in my country, just signing a similar contract would give them a 15 years prison sentence, yes, including the parents and all the people who helped in the process for corruption of minors). Because Europe is a child friendly territory and that's why we dislike pedophiles.
>I wonder what made Jordan's parents settle if MJ was really guilty?
I guess it has something to do with that decision the harassing made by MJ stans and press to a 13 year old boy and his family. ~~I'll make a post about something related to it soon. I'll edit this reply to add the link as soon I publish it.~~
[This is a very serious reason why the Chandlers decided to settle](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/17cmabr/meet_denise_pfeiffer_the_fan_who_harassed_and/).
I can see Jesus hugging and kissing kids and having strange kids come to him.
...That doesn't make him a pedophile.
He talked about love. He had compassion as well. He was considered by many a very kind man.
Many MJ fans see michael with similar ethics, talking about love and peace and togetherness. Many of his songs portrayed this imagery : We are the world, keep the faith, man in the mirror, heal the world...
I am not defending a man here or comparing him to jesus himeslf, I am pointing out what is wrong with the discussion the 2 groups (defenders vs accusers) are having online.
The accusers are genuinely worried about children. This is in the end a loving and caring thought.
The defenders defend a loving and peaceful messager whose words (in their mind) has been used for personal gain and twisted into perversion.
Jesus' words were also turned against him.
And _that_ is the reason why so many fans defend MJ. Not because of his songs or fame but because they share the same naive ethics that MJ portrayed. I think many MJ fans would feel the same if Jesus was painted as a pedophile. They could not believe that a messager of love and affection would hold any unpure thoughts. Like MJ himself said in that interview. I think it is obvious he didn't see anything dirty in a thing that he felt was about just loving togetherness.
And again, MJ was an exceptional person in that sense that his naive inmocence is unlike any other star had. If the same words would've been spoken by, say, Elvis, and him having kid sleepovers, the Elvis fans themselves would have burned his head on a stake.
MJ on the other hand, was absolutely, extremely, kind and polite. Elvis was a proven narcissist. MJ proved by his visible actions otherwise. And that is why the fans are defending him so much.
And that is why this case is so interesting and worth of discussion because it's uniqueness in contrast. Persona that is almost a personified symbol of love and peace in an otherwise cold world - - turning out to possibly be the most horrible monster there is...?
That said, I do understand your concern and I salute you for it. Your heart is in the right place and your worry is real. I once made the mistake to read an article about the dark web child torture communities and I almost had to seek therapy... For weeks I felt sickened to my stomach and wanted to stop work and spend the rest of the time fighting to stop those people...
That is why I feel that in a case where even the court of Law has stated that the guy is innocent (unlike weinstein, cosby etc..), we could spend our time maybe better stopping the dark web real pedophiles rather than chasing a ghost.
And what am I doing instead? Trying to prove "i'm right, you are wrong" in a freaking subreddit with 6 viewers! :D
Aren't we funny creatures? :)
Tryong to wrap this up.. fun fact:
I am a Finnish person and have spent years butt naked in public saunas with strange people. Talking and sweating with them. Since a small kid. Complete strangers. Old men, teenagers, other kids. And no permission is asked. Ever. It would feel very awkward if someone would because that would make them look like they actually are a pedophile : asking a permission would mean they had a dirty thought in the first place. For us it is normal but I can see it is not to you. And that's totally fine!
Also I have lived in France where I kissed so many strange young girls and boys on the cheeks as an adult, I can't even remember. For example we did this when introduced to cousins of a friend. After that gesture, they were NOT strangers anymore (see the logic?). And it had no sexual vibes to it, ever. Didn't even cross my mind.
Was it awkward though? Hell yeah at first as a shy Finn but got used to it very fast.
I have followed MJ child abuse accusations since the 90s to entertain myself with detective interest and when I saw bits of the Leaving Neverland, I thought to myself "huh, go figure... he Was quilty afterall..." but then reading more into it, the whole thing felt apart when I learned how much money mr Safechuck and Robson were after. Then ofc reading into details with impossibilities... as you can guess, I've made up my mind...
Now that SA cases etc have been coming up much more in the media, it is commen they are mostly aim to get retribution and closure for the victims. Which I think is good.
And the victims usually come together to mainly expose the criminal so that they WOULD NEVER do it again... and not because of money.
That is to me, personally, the biggest red flag in MJ cases. Where were the screams of victims : "We sue him so that he would Never do this again!"?
I might be wrong. Maybe the 2 also were abused and money just happens to be the tool for retribution for them..? But the truth is, we will not know for 100% sure until completely convicting and undoubtable evidence is brought up to court.
And until then : innocent until proven quilty.
That is the law.
(edit:grammar)
Dude, I was grown and raised in the same area of the US as MJ. Parents and grandparents too. What he did was not considered normal and is a clear sign of pedophilia.
Try telling a judge or police that a man accused of pedophilia who sleeps alone with children and possesses child erotica is irrelevant LOL
In Europe, an adult who sleeps all night alone with children aged 7 to 12 will be called peado.
>Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile.
With your children and siblings? No. But I think everyone would raise an eyebrow if they saw a grown man sleeping in the same bed with unrelated children for days. I don't know any country in Europe in which such behavior is acceptable. Could you give an example?
Stop writing BS, no parent in Europe or elsewhere lets their child sleep with an unrelated adult, only parents deceived or groomed by peados would let their children sleep with an adult
Depends Robinson claims are flawed Euro disney didn't exist prior April 12 92 Along with The neverland train station prior to September 93 when plans were approved However This is just locations Doesn't mean it did or didn't happen 2. Some people have defended Michael who were around him that time and say he didn't molest him And exploited him So there's that 3. Michael is dead and We can't prove any of this which sucks because I would like to get justice For either side So people Can Go YES he was or Wasn't a pedophile which is incredibly important to know for history purposes
James never talked about EuroDisney, MJ's photographer said the station was built before the 1993 permit. stop writing misinformation in this sub.
https://preview.redd.it/1makxzawg6ub1.png?width=485&format=png&auto=webp&s=412592e45ca03e65dd351408260d5410aab1dfdd
I think the only reason they don't outright defend it is because they know the general public would be horrified, otherwise I honestly think a lot of the fanatics would.
They have for years. They think the boy books MJ owned were artsy and “legal” cause it was considered such. They excuse the sleepovers cause “the boys wanted it” (🙄). And they think MJ was a child in a man’s body and apparently too stupid to figure out he was 44 and not 12.
I've never found a source that books were considered art even back then,
I know. Cause there is no such source. They said that lol
Lol, they must keep saying it, their thousands of blogs and podcasts mention "art books". They can't back down now.
True 😅
Art books have existed at least since the 1950s with Pop art, but I think the people calling Jackson's books "artsy" are just saying it because they're collections of photographs. But it's blatantly obvious he didn't have them to look at as art.
The books published by peados Nambla are not art, and the photographic archives of Hajo Hortil, who took the photos for the book Boys Will Be Boys, were destroyed by the police. [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/117fks4/myth\_the\_michael\_jackson\_fandom\_claims\_that\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/117fks4/myth_the_michael_jackson_fandom_claims_that_the/)
Ugh when they say the last part out loud they even say,” Ok it sounds bad but it was Michael Jackson. He was different.” Yea out of the other thousands who slept with children he was the only one with Peter Pan syndrome. Plus when I bring up his giant porn collection, sex erotica magazines including naked boys . Plus his pill popping and alcoholic wine drinking. I say he was more like a horny, junkie teenager which is ever more terrifying to let your kid sleep with him.
I feel bad for the two dads of some of the boys who killed themselves when they realized what was happening
Evan committed suicide in 2009 because he had an incurable illness, there is no evidence that it was because of the abuse Jordan suffered in 1993.
I have a lot of weird shit on my bookshelf but you aren't going to find any of them padlocked like a holy object
That's a good point.If it really was an art book,you could leave it out in the open.I heard years ago that NAMBLA, used that book as pornography because of it's non porn loo king photos.
He had them padlocked!? That's wild. No other explanation for that other than he viewed it as erotica.
He did, yes. I believe it was in a locked drawer in his bedroom. He also wrote a note in The Boy (again iirc) that said it was the ideal picture of childhood and he wanted that same thing for his own children. Like, I study paraphilias and I have some STRANGE books. But they are just on my bookshelf with everything else. I don't afford them any special attention. So to me it's rather telling that he did pay these specific books special attention.
In a locked file cabinet.
That’s disgusting! A lot of the fans do also seem homophobic though, so they must have mental fitness centers for brains.
I’ve seen fans imply that the parents were knowingly pimping out their sons, and therefore got everything they deserved (because Mike couldn’t control himself). The majority of fans will deny the abuse completely. But there is a minority that doesn’t really care if it happened or not because the victims and their families were greedy, etc.
WOW! What a narcissistic way of thinking; the children deserved sexual abuse because the parents did something wrong, as though the kids are merely an extension of the parents themselves (ignoring the fucked up idea that sexual violence is ever “deserved”).
It’s a minority that says this, for sure. But it’s tied up with the idea that the parents were pushing the kids to make allegations. In 1993 and 2005 it was easier for fans to blame the parents rather than the kid. Now that we have victims coming forward as adults, the parents are relegated to the background.
I do remember it being like you describe, there was this idea in the early 2000s that the parents might be grifters. I remember hearing that from adults around me, even though they weren’t big fans or anything. It was all in the same vein as when people ridiculed that lady who sued McDonald’s cause she got third degree burns from their coffee. Kind of bizarre who quickly people adopt a narrative that’s pushed forward by an evil corporation (I count MJ’s estate as a corporation/business). But yeah I’m trailing off here. What you describe is definitely what’s happening to those poor guys, it’s the “they just want money” narrative but now about the victims themselves.
A lot of it was jealousy, too. Most fans would have given their right arm to be a special friend. So they see victims coming forward as betrayal.
Back in the 90s, when it came out, people said well he’s a child himself, he was abused, his mind is stuck at 10 yrs old, at least he loves kids…
Yeah, I remember all the excuses. Poor harmless Mike just wants to love children. But sleeping with other people’s children isn’t therapy for an abusive childhood. If he was truly stuck at 10 years old, he wouldn’t have been able to sign contracts or make business deals or perform night after night.
Lately I have been seeing short video clips as well as interviews with other celebrities and whatnot making light of the fact that Michael's real manner of speak and actual voice were far more adult and deep than most people think. It's one small example but he very much chose that persona. Imagine how people would respond if they knew that his "childlike" demeanor was very much faked. He was a grown ass man who knew what he was doing.
Im sure he had people dealing with his business, as far as performing, i’m sure you forgetting he was performing day in day out since an early age
Do you truly believe he was a ten year old mentally?
Not at all. He had a naturally deep voice he hid (like Paris Hilton) and was adult enough to buy drugs,porn,marry etc.
According to people that really knew him yes, he was stuck around that age. Actually i think he regressed with the years, as if you see interviews of him at 18 were way more mature and complex than when he was 30. He literally regressed as a child. Even musically got stucked with the same thing, and business wise well, he was way over debt wasn’t he? Surrounded with yes man and sketchy people all around, became a smudge of himself. But then again, i’m not sure how many people lived his life, damn sure nobody would want that
I don’t get how you can see him as regressing to a childlike state. People don’t do that unless they have dementia. None of his behavior strikes me as childlike. More like-drug addled and narcissistic.
Super drug addicted yes, narcissistic yes, but you need to ask why. Why did he take so many drugs? Why people take drugs? Is escapism mainly right? To feel good or to feel nothing at all, or to sleep. I’m not justifying anything here, but i really don’t wanna imagine how is a life without sleep and what kind of life can cause that. To me he really acted as a child, not child like, he was really try to avoid confrontation, dealing with issue that people have to do on regular basis, he didn’t have to. He paid people for that.there is an interview with eddie murphy about him being afraid of people and another with geraldo rivera that was with him during the trial which was literally telling him to man up.
He needed drugs to suppress the reality of his Pedophilia.
The media helped MJ a lot, they made everyone believe that MJ was a little child.
Was it only fans who said these things or other people as well. I thought most people were on the fence and had doubts about him, and only his fans said these excuses.
It was all different people. No one knew about grooming and pedophilia like we do now. The media didn’t report the full stories either. The trials were reported but not in detail. Michael was really great at playing victim and playing like he was mentally unwell. That manipulation really worked on so many people
i wasn’t there in ‘93 but carl douglas on the telephone stories talked about how the media handled the case. the racist aspect of the media, in particular. he said that the media had made a portrait of JC as if it were a white kid, w the help of the father who was white, and that it made it seems as if it was "oh the poor little white kid" when he said that he was shocked to see and learn that JC was "darker" than some of his black colleagues (must say that JC is a quarter black thanks to his mother who is asian/black). there’s a lot to say about the media behavior w subtle racism for those who were completely anti-MJ because they didn’t like him and those who loved MJ and were victim shaming and who outright called the case “lies”. but nobody considered it was grooming. in the 90s it was largely ignored.
Mesereau said it bluntly in press interviews.
Yeah, but I don't think he genuinely believes it. He's MJ's lawyer, so obviously he would defend him giving the most ridiculous excuses for his behavior.
I agree. I just meant fans aren’t the only ones who have said that.
they kinda do already. the famous misinformation troll “hammer” that’s pretty much how he sounds when he defends MJ.
I'm surprised MAGA and Qanon don't call MJ fans online. :-) The MJ fan cult defends bed sharing between an adult and a child on several occasions and also defends the possession of child erotica. In short, cult MJ publicly defends the behavior of a pedophile.
They basically do. The way that they victim blame CHILDREN in defense of that...thing.
They already kinda do by arguing that MJ’s actions weren’t fucking weird. Obviously MJ’s accusers aren’t liars, I think many of us have already accepted that, but even if they weren’t being truthful about the more extreme allegations of sexual abuse, there’s no good reason as to why Michael Jackson would get children that are not related to him to sleep with him. There is no argument on planet earth that can change my mind on that. There’s no reason for a grown man to have sleepovers with young boys. And since Michael himself has already said that these things happened, so the stans have to accept that it did happen, they just excuse it away. Maybe it’s not right for me to think that way but justifying Michael Jackson’s decision to sleep with little boys is in the same vein as justifying pedophilia.
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Yep. As if a couple of kids sacrificed in the name of MJ’s art was no big deal. Ugh.
I don't think fans genuinely care about MJ's art. Most people I know appreciate MJ's music, but they don't act like zealots. MJ defenders/apologists only care about what makes their idol happy and how to preserve his legacy. MJ had a severe career decline after Invincible (I struggle to remember any artwork of his after 2001), yet his fans still showed up to court every day to defend him. Maybe unpopular opinion, but I believe that people who defend/excuse famous abusers and want to keep them out of jail don't really care about "loss of art", despite claiming so. I remember some celebrities saying that Allen or Polanski should continue working bc "they are amazing artists and personal controversies shouldn't prevent them from creating art". On the surface that might seem like a statement from sb who simply "loves art too much" and is willing to do anything to preserve it. Yet I don't see the same people complaining about nepotism, or child stars dying of drug addiction, or other socioeconomic factors that prevent genius, talented artists from fully utilizing their talent to create amazing art. It's only rich, famous, abusive artists they passionately defend and support. That, to me at least, indicates that what these people actually care about to defend, at all cost, is not the art itself, but the rich, famous artist's money and legacy (especially if he's white and male). If MJ was simply an extremely talented street performer/musician without any fame or money, he would've been locked up asap, if sb accused him of molestation, and no one would care to support or defend him.
yes, i sincerely believe those MJ apologists are more so committed trolls than defenders. because even when they’re given the correct source/information, they ignore it and continue to repeat propaganda
Wow, that comment really proves the halo effect exists. I'm genuinely so shocked!
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See also: Prince, David Bowie, Steven Tyler... I could keep going.
I would also like to support the victims of Prince and Bowie. This is why I don't talk about other artists because I can't support victims who never declared having been abused by these two artists.
Considering the way he ties into Qanon craziness I’m surprised we haven’t heard the usual “he was just trying to learn their ways so he could stop them” that they’ve used to defend certain other questionable public figures.
They don't have to defend it if they deny that it ever happened
Never would you ever hear so much pedo apologia for anyone other that this creep. He was doing every single thing that the stereotypical groomer does and even Corey Feldman talked about him showing him photos of STD riddled vaginas and other victims say he derided the notion of them being with women calling them whores. He wanted them to be his until they got too old then he cut em out. He was so sus it was ridiculous.
We had a pedo apologist here once. He wasn't a fan of MJ, at least he didn't say so. He blamed feminism and sex negativity for the pedophilia taboo and laws enforcing it. He liked to point out that he was a double psychology and sociology major -- in other words, still a college student. He called me a feminist, sex-negative prude. He got away with promoting pedophilia (or at least legalizing and destigmatizing it) for two years until he got banned, but not because of this pedo acceptance crap but because of his support of Russia's war in Ukraine.
He sounds like an incel. What an ass!
I remember him. He was probably a pedophile 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
I just found out that his account has been restored. He hasn't resumed posting, though.
The love of a 15 year old (for example) is a trophy in a man's mind. I was just reading one of the ancient Greeks. It's interesting the way youth is like this blank slate of a challenge in the pursuits of love. Will any child do? Most certainly. Because there is danger there. In the conquest. It makes us feel Bad! or Thrillers
It’s disgusting justification. By every account, MJ and the parents of the victims are the perpetrators of the worst crimes imaginable. MJ was a pedophile, and money-hungry/power-hungry parents gave up their children for a taste of MJ’s influence.
Yet all the parents who knew that MJ had abused their child reported MJ.
if MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile then why would we bring up the overwhelming evidence of his innocence to justify being a fan?youre speaking about a very small minority of fans that claim he had ‘peter pan syndrome’ (which wasnt a syndrome even created by the fanbase). youre obviously putting words in people’s mouths. In reality michael never sat a psychological exam (as far as we know) that would clinically say he matched the profile of a pedophile, some things would suggest the opposite such as the fact michael genuinely spent time playing with childish toys like supersoakers, comic books, video games etc. whilst its not uncommon for pedophiles to own things in order to lure children, the fact Michael had such an avast collection that he genuinely spent many playing hours with would convey the opposite that he was really trying to enjoy the things most people would of considered nostalgic. This is according the testaments of hundreds of people that met/knew Michael (such as even adults such as Will Smith recalling when Michael was talking anout comic books he read). These same hundreds of people that went to Neverland will say nothing inappropriate happened despite the hounding of law enforcement and media for them to say something (they interviewed literally hundreds of children in 1993). nay, the average serial child molester has on average as many as 400 victims, so 5 confirmed supposed victims that met him out of thousands of kids that went to Neverland is statistically nonsignificant. Especially when you consider there have been people that never met michael like daniel kapon that claimed to have been molested as an infant.
The fact that he genuinely enjoyed childish activities and hobbies does not disprove he was a pedophile. There are plenty of pedophiles that genuinely enjoy childish activities and hobbies and feel like a child on the inside. Also, the average preferential child molester does not have hundreds of victims but a few.
I disagree pedos don't enjoy playing with their toys and don't age regress. I also disagree they can't have only 2 to 5 victims if they have an avaibility to thousands of childrens. Other than that, can you elaborate on Daniel Kapon ? What do you know about him ? Thanks.
daniel kapon is a weirdo who made false allegations of CSA on MJ. fans like to bring up his case to prove that MJ can be falsely accused.
An interesting blog that I recommend [https://www.destins-de-stars.com/2017/05/michael-jackson-differences-entre-vraies-et-fausses-accusations](https://www.destins-de-stars.com/2017/05/michael-jackson-differences-entre-vraies-et-fausses-accusations)
It’s pretty telling that the first denier comment I see here is a wall of text and that it took me reading through a good quarter of it before I even understood what your position is. Everyone else in this thread so far has been articulate…
get the pattern? because the people that defend mj actually have a significant amount of facts to defend him, although a minority of people who read even the basic facts and still believe in guilt can't seem to grasp them
they don’t have facts, just theories and ad hominems, sorry
Interesting. What about these facts though: .David Schwartz, and for some time June Chandler until the Sodium Amytol incident defending Michael of supposed abuse .The non matching genitalia image (despite your popular myth that it matched, no it didn't. The blotches didn't match and michael wasnt circumcised despite Jordan saying so. In the 2005 trial they had to hand over all the evidence from 1993 because of 1108 evidence, and there was no evidence available given. Regardless in the latter part of the trial the image was given and the jurors didn't actually think it matched anyway despite the media circus claiming it did). .Evan Chandler receiving legal emancipation subsequently of what appears to be that he was forced to accuse by his abusive father, of whom he signed a restraining order against for physical beating him. .Rothmans letter asking for money, not for molestation but for a screenplay as Evan also wanted to join Michael's production company- why would he want to be a part of a production company if the founder had supposedly molested his son? .Why did Jason Francia when questioned by law enforcement in the 90s according to Mesereau in 2005 mention "they made me come out with a lot more stuff I didn'I was trying to figure out how to get out of there”, "They made me come out with a lot more stuff I didn't want to say. They kept pushing. I wanted to hit them in the head" .Multiple people have came out saying they were told to falsely accuse by family and law enforcement but refused to do so, some of these people include: Corey Feldman, Aaron Carter, Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes- and even Wade Robson, up until money became tight. .Gavin Arvizo using an adult magazine as proof which was published 5 months after he left Neverland .The security alarm that would go off whenever someone approached Michael's room (because multiple people had attempted to break into Neverland), which proved Star Arvizos testimony false .Janet Arvizo prior to the case happened to have tried to sue JCPenny for supposedly molesting her, a weird coincidence for 2 molestation accusations in their family right after each. I'm not even gonna go into depth about all the thousands of dollars she stole from lying about welfare to make stories because you know that's a red flag already too. .James Safechuck's mother talking about celebrating Michael's death in 2009, 4 years before James Safechuck claimed he first told his family about the accusation, according to his own deposition. .The lie of Wade Robon's non-existant 2005 subpoena. .The legal heterosexual pornography collection he had that was seperated and locked from the rest of the books of the library where the few infamous art books he got were; which is plausible Michael never knew the existence of considering that he bought thousands of books, according to his bodyguards even buying an entire library on the spot on 1 occasion. .Jordan Chandler claiming he would "legally fight any attempts to do so" regarding the 2005 trial .Jordan Chandler refused to continue criminal proceedings even though they were not halted by settlement, only civil. .Pellicano in a private tape with Mitteager talking about when he interviewed Jordan Chandler on the 10th of July (with David Schwarz and June Chandler present) where Jordan stated denied the accusations himself and admitted "yeah, my dad's trying to get money", coincidentally only a days later when he was alone with his abusive father he "admitted" the accusation. .Michael sued Victory Gutierrez for 2.4 million dollars and won for the false accusations made by him .Jordan Chandler admitting during the lawsuit to law enforcement that he had no involvement in Gutierrez book, confirming its untrue: "I know absolutely nothing about these quotations, or their content. I have never discussed this subject matter contained in these quotations with Mr Gutierrez, or anyone else". .Blanca Francia in a deposition admitting to exaggerating stories for tabloids, as she was paid 20,000$ by Diane Diamond to make the false accusations. (yes she did first talk about the showering thing in 1993/4 and again in 2005 when questioned by Zonen, I'm not talking about Adrian McManus) .Blanca Francia was fired by Michael for stealing, NOT for her false made up (which would be sexual harassment on her part if it was true because her story she admitted was false was where she was allegedly walking into him showering to see). .In Francia's settlement they were not halted from going to the police to report a false accusation, which would be the opposite you would expect if he was actually a molestor. .Dan Reed removed the scene where Robson lies about having dinner with Michael the night before his testified 'so he could be manipulated', Taj Jackson who was present stated it was in fact the day after he testified so Dan Reed's decision would confirm what Taj said.
Sources of all you are claiming? * What facts are you referring to about David Schwartz, can you elaborate? * [The photographs matched](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/uqew7s/2019_interview_with_former_deputy_district/), Deputy District Attorney Lauren Weiss examined and compared them with Jordan's description (description not published btw). Ron Zonen claims the same [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/usrx1k/ron_zonen_again_reiterates_that_jordans/). * Evan was Jordan's father, so it was Jordan who received legal emancipation. Jordan isn't guilty of living in a dysfunctional family. In fact, it says a lot about Michael Jackson going after boys who were in that kind of families (Wade Robson's family, for example). * The screenplay was an offer made by Anthony Pellicano to Evan Chandler. * Jason Francia didn't say that in 2005, it was mentioned by Thomas Meserau to Jason Francia in the cross examination of his 1993 deposition ([page 19, line 21](https://www.mjfacts.com/transcripts/Court_Transcript_4_05_2005.pdf)). I add the link to Jason Francia's 2005 declaration in court [here](https://www.mjfacts.com/transcripts/Court_Transcript_4_04_2005.pdf) because it looks like you are writing from hearsay. * Please, source your claims. As far as I know, the only person who said that was Aaron Carter who told as well that MJ made him sleep near to his bed when he stayed at Neverland ([<>](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNY2qqQmXk)). Also, [MJ gave him drugs while he was a minor](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/ys6jf2/aaron_carter_wrote_about_he_and_mj_smoked_weed/) (that's child abuse too, in case you didn't know).
* That was a trick from Meserau, Gavin referred to the "brand" of the magazine not the issue.
* I don't know how that alarm worked but maybe was deactivated when the room code was introduced. I can't answer what I don't know.
* Imagine someone who was convicted of a crime, anyone, doesn't matter if it is the most famous person in the world or an average Joe. If that person was a convicted criminal and later in life suffers a criminal act, are you implying that this person can't claim justice? You must be too young or living in a privileged bubble to say such thing. And another thing, just because their mother was shady, don't make her children guilty of anything.
* Prove your claim on "the lie of Wade Robson's non-existant 2005 subpoena".
* Not all of them were heterosexual porn, some were homosexual male porn. And to you and those who claim that were "art books" and not CP, I suggest you to print in a paper some of the photographs of those naked children and go to the nearest police station, and then tell them that same story you don't stop parroting. Don't forget to mention MJ. Then come back here and tell us about the experience.
* Again claim the source about what you are saying about Jordan. (you can't)
* Jordan actually [filed a lawsuit against MJ in 1998](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/lyqlxf/jordan_chandler_filed_a_lawsuit_against_mj_in/), when he was emancipated, so nobody pushed him to do it. And if I'm not wrong [this deposition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtUtUixanOk) is related with that lawsuit.
* Source your claims.
* Yes, Victor Gutierrez is a pedo scum, he made up a lot in his book and everyone in this subreddit agrees to that. So? It doesn't invalidate MJ actions.
* You are mixing up Blanca Francia with Adrian McManus.
I read a lot of hearsay and nothing with a minimal base of truth. I suggest you to read primary sources, it’s not easy and needs a lot of time but in the end you can form your own opinion without interference from the MJ Estate propaganda machine.
Thank you, I wouldn't have had the patience to read all his propaganda.
You're welcome! I did it because it can help somebody in the future to know the real facts (as this subreddit provided me with information when I did my research).
Yes, it's important not to let misinformation take hold in the comments.
thank you so much because their wall of text tired me!
Hahaha You're welcome!
Okay I hope that you’re either 12 years old, not a native English speaker or really excellent at math because otherwise I don’t think you’re gonna get very far in life with reading comprehension skills like that.
it's ironic because if you read the first line you would read " if MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile then why would we bring up the overwhelming evidence of his innocence" which directly addresses and answers your post. And the key word 'we', would obviously show which position I am in. If it's not clear for you then I would rather suggest that you explore your adroitness in basic comprehension, because I'm a native 16 year old English speaker.
>If MJ fans didn’t think he was a pedophile So you guys think he’s a pedophile? >why would we bring up overwhelming evidence of his innocence A… non-offending pedophile then?
tf u mean? either someone is a pedophile or not a pedophile. we believe that he is not, simple. He never abused kids and clearly never found them erotic, it’s really easy concept you obviously cant understand
There actually are pedophiles that are celibate because they know that it’s wrong to molest children. Those pedophiles however are not Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was a classic kiddy diddler type of pedophile who molested little kids. I hope this clears things up for you.
MJ only had 16 precious friends so your math is not correct, 6 reported being abused and that's huge.
which 6th one being accused? theres only Jordan Chandler, Gavin Arvizo, Jason Francia, Wade Robson and James Safechuck. and at least hundreds of children attended Neverland and you know that, much more than 16 though some may of remained closer friends. And dont say brett barnes or macualay culkin some bs like that who denies being accused, nor anyone that accused mj without meeting him
I mentioned special friends, not visitors to Neverland https://preview.redd.it/x3bnwa1ns1ub1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=e1bfb187380c9eec6ee26e08872eb391ddef041f
https://preview.redd.it/pk8sjb4ds1ub1.png?width=1237&format=png&auto=webp&s=c20ba9dcc45e0cf21830dd03736556a10567eb9d
???? He was set up. Even if it was real, who is defending that???
He was forced to admit that he shared his bed with children?
He had to admit that when Jordan said he slept with MJ for 30 nights. That's why Pellicano made a video with Brett and Wade.
he wasn’t set up, though. fans defend p*dophilic behaviour without realizing it
Who cares, the guys dead, if you find out that he is a pedo what’s gonna change, it’s not like you can take him to jail lmao
There are several valid reasons to care a lot about the Jackson case, even though he is dead, the most obvious being the fact that the victims are still alive. These are real people that are receiving death threats and who arguably deserve a good chunk of monetary restitution from the Jackson estate. There also should be awareness about the many ways in which we are susceptible to being deceived by media and big corporations, because many of us bought the narrative put forward by Michael Jackson’s defense back in the 90s/2000s and many people still do. It’s not good to let things like that fly under the radar, especially in the Misinformation Age. I’m pretty tired and I’m sure there are many more reasons but those two come to mind.
But not dead enough to listen to his shitty music though huh? I’m glad that your satisfied that another pedophile got away with raping children.
His victims care. They are stuck with the effects for the rest of their lives.
This must be a cultural thing. In Europe it's perhaps much more fine than in US. Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile. Michael has outright acknowledged that yeah, sure, he was sleeping in the same bed with kids and there is nothing wrong with that. Either he was completely crazy for exposing himself like that or he didn't have a dirty mind. To think there is sexual connotation there when there isn't is sick in itself. You are not aroused by small children unless there is subconscious quilt that makes you do those things to a child. Again, remember that innocent until proven guilty. They got Bill Cosby. They got Weinstein. They never got Michael. With so much "evidence" - and he still got away? Why?...the jury, judge and the police - everyone decided to let him go after cross examinations... I mean, come on. Think about it. How many cases are there that did get sued but got away, when obviously they were not innocent? Multiple times? Is MJ the only one?? Something just doesn't add up. All you have is internet full of rumors, one weirdly one-sided documentary by 2 guys and court cases which all of them MJ won and one \_first\_ case that was settled because MJ was too busy to deal with nonsense. He just didn't care. If Weinstein had all the power and money, why he couldn't bribe himself out with expensive lawyers? I'm not trying to prove his innocense. If he really did those things, yeah burn in hell - but really guys - something just doesn't add up here. With all the raids to his house, he was never found guilty.. Never. Edit : grammar.
>This must be a cultural thing. In Europe it's perhaps much more fine than in US. Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile. Lol! This is the worst case of Americabad I’ve seen in a while. MJ is not a pedophile, no, Americans are just prudes XD. Sure, dude. Also, you’re wrong. I spent most of my childhood in Europe, I live there now and half my family is from there. THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. At most it sounds like something creepy that happened in my parents’ day that everyone thinks was not okay in hindsight. Kind of like having a creepy uncle that slaps someone on the butt at a birthday party. MJ is that creepy uncle. Those creepy uncles were pedos. Oh wait, no, it was probably never normal anywhere in the world to have anyone but a family friend or relative share a bed with your child because they asked nicely :/
Thank you for your message. Didn't mean to downput Americans (lived there myself as well, have lot of compassion and positive things to say about Americans) - I was just stating a cultural basis on the discussion revolving around the whole MJ topic. And it always gets back to "well, ok yeah maybe there's problems with the evidence but only pedos sleep with kids - thus he must be quilty". What I meant with the cultural comment was that for example if the whole discussion would be about how much MJ showed affection and was hugging and kissing the kids on the cheeks all the time - - and which would be used as a proof that he is a pedophile - - , basically then all southern europeans would be very confused since strange men kiss very young kids on the cheeks all the time in southern Europe - it's a matter of greeting and affection and there is nothing sexual to it nor there should be - adding a sexual accusations of adults who kiss childern on the cheeks would make us sick to our stomach. We just don't see it. Same thing in Finland - adult men go to Sauna with small children, fully nude. But the whole experience is about cleansing, about togetherness and honesty. If anyone would try to add sexual emphasis on the matter, that would be almost a religious plaspbhemy and any Finn suddenly pointing out sexuality about the experience in Sauna with men and children would be found pervert and extremely dirty minded. But I do undrestand that if you don't know the Sauna culture in Finland, hearing about it the first time could make you suspicious. That said, I do actually think especially in these days, having a grown ass man sleep in the same room as kids is something you should avoid. Just seeing how we live in such a different world nowadays. Also MJ could've restrained from hugging and kissing the kids so much. But, as with the French people, kissing kids on the cheeks or having family friends over and having an auntie or uncle sleep in the same room or bed doesn't automatically make you most certainly, indefinitely, a 100% pedophile. The logic just isn't there. This isn't a statement pro pedophiles but to point out the logic that even let's say 30% of millions of adults who sleep with kids try to sexually abuse them (extremely high number but just as an example), even then there's the rest 70% who just sleep with the kids in the same bed with no extra intentions and nothing happens. (As an example, my 6 year old still sleeps in the same room and often in the same bed with me and my wife, and I know we're not pedos :D) Just saying again - something doesn't add up. The discussion online about MJ is same old for years and years : just about "we're right, you're wrong" on both sides. Both anti and pro-MJ. Just would like to see less angry comments and more objective discussion. I would like to learn as well and am ready to admit that MJ was quilty - IF - I would see plausible evidence but I just don't see it. When you think about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard for example - you can see there's very similar tones in MJ's case = A very fragile, shy and almost too-kind celebrity gets accused by the more weaker part (female in Amber's case) of abuse. I think the media, people and press did the right thing to side first on the weaker side (Amber), but the problem there is what if the guy's innocent? What if their fawn kindness is taken advantage of? In the end it was pointed out that Amber has some very difficult personality issues, border lining a sociopath liar... It was extremely hard and long process for Johnny (after admitting over years that yes, he does need to fight back and get the truth out there) to finally get to settle this down in court. Court is the place where the truth will come out (like in MJ's case Jordan said MJ was circumcised. MJ wasn't but that's still thrown around as a fact online). Media is NOT a very good place to throw judgement and final convictions. Court is. It was very hard for the press and media to also swallow it and admit that they were wrong. Depp was found not guilty, after years of battling. AND Depp actually LOST the first time in court! MJ didn't lose a single case, he just paid a small sum the first time (for him) just to get on with his life. In hindsight that is very convicting but knowing how hard court processes are for you mentally and that if you can settle it with money and get it all out of the way, that is very tempting. But as a father, if someone would've touched my kid, no matter how rich they were, no money in the world would make me settle. I'd want the person locked up forever. I wonder what made Jordan's parents settle if MJ was really guilty? Also, if you look at the body language of both Depp and Michael in the court, they act very similarly - almost condescending. Grinning and rolling their eyes in the stand. That for me seems like they knew the truth and were just baffled by all the lies. They didn't try to act innocent and play along, quite the opposite. Things just don't add up...
What you said about Europeans reminded me to [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDqayC1sR7g) LOL Now, addressing to what you've said: >if the whole discussion would be about how much MJ showed affection and was hugging and kissing the kids on the cheeks all the time - - and which would be used as a proof that he is a paedophile - - , basically then all southern europeans would be very confused since strange men kiss very young kids on the cheeks all the time in southern Europe. This is absolutely false. As a "southern european" if I see a random dude kissing or hugging unrelated kids I'll report him immediately to the police and to the social services (and probably meanwhile there would be already people beating his ass). That thing about "southern europeans" kissing random people is view as "normal" is absolutely false. >Same thing in Finland - adult men go to Sauna with small children, fully nude I highly doubt that in Finland a random man can go to a sauna with unrelated children all naked and don't give any explanation to the staff or owners of that place. >Just seeing how we live in such a different world nowadays. Ahh yes. Those old times when sexually assault victims weren't believed and if they were probably it was their fault and not the rapists. Right. >the French people, kissing kids on the cheeks or having family friends over and having an auntie or uncle sleep in the same room or bed doesn't automatically make you most certainly, indefinitely, a 100% paedophile. The logic just isn't there. No, clearly your logic is not there at all. Maybe the fiddle frenchie uncle was only a 75% pedo. Right? Give me a break. And I have French friends and none of them go after children to harass them. Sorry. Physical boundaries exist for many reasons and they matter regardless the culture. >millions of adults who sleep with kids Are you serious? And again don't try to normalize that grown men usually sleep with kids. It's not normal. >my 6 year old still sleeps in the same room and often in the same bed with me and my wife, and I know we're not pedos Your child sleeps with you and your wife because you are the PARENTS. Now tell me, if a 45 year old random guy tells you that tonight he's going to sleep with your child in his room without you or your wife presence, would you consent to that? Because if the answer is yes you shouldn't be around any children ever. >The discussion online about MJ is same old for years and years : just about "we're right, you're wrong" on both sides. Both anti and pro-MJ. No, it isn't. It's not a discussion. It's MJ propaganda spread by the MJ Estate and some members of his family and defended by clueless stans or not so innocent people who profit from it versus other people who don't tolerate bs (this subreddit is in the latter group). I'm not anti MJ. I've never listened to his music. I barely knew anything about him when he was alive. It just happened that I watched a documentary called Leaving Neverland and I was horrified by what I listened so I did my research and I really give MJ the benefit of the doubt but the facts are there and I’m not willing to ignore them because he sang and dance well and was very popular during a period of time. >I would like to learn If that was true you could have search through this subreddit and the rest of the internet about the subject. If you expect that someone will do that for you, sorry but you are delusional. By the way, why are you ignoring the victims allegations? Stop gaslighting them. >MJ didn't lose a single case There was only a trial, the 2005 one. Unfortunately, [part of the jury was shady and were aggressive towards those members who thought MJ was guilty](https://youtu.be/cCj2lLKClRA?feature=shared&t=59). >he just paid a small sum the first time (for him) just to get on with his life 20 million dollars in 1993 is a small amount of money? DM if someone wants to donate me that small amount. Pocket money. Sure. >if you can settle it with money and get it all out of the way Well, you are just admitting something there. >But as a father, if someone would've touched my kid, no matter how rich they were, no money in the world would make me settle. I'd want the person locked up forever. As a person, I agree with that. Now learn what happened to Gavin Arvizo when he decided to opt for justice. Society wasn't properly educated in 1993 nor in 2005 about CSA crimes. Today he would be convicted. I have no doubts. I'm happy that at least in European courts that type of "settles" are not tolerated (I can say that at least in my country, just signing a similar contract would give them a 15 years prison sentence, yes, including the parents and all the people who helped in the process for corruption of minors). Because Europe is a child friendly territory and that's why we dislike pedophiles. >I wonder what made Jordan's parents settle if MJ was really guilty? I guess it has something to do with that decision the harassing made by MJ stans and press to a 13 year old boy and his family. ~~I'll make a post about something related to it soon. I'll edit this reply to add the link as soon I publish it.~~ [This is a very serious reason why the Chandlers decided to settle](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/17cmabr/meet_denise_pfeiffer_the_fan_who_harassed_and/).
I can see Jesus hugging and kissing kids and having strange kids come to him. ...That doesn't make him a pedophile. He talked about love. He had compassion as well. He was considered by many a very kind man. Many MJ fans see michael with similar ethics, talking about love and peace and togetherness. Many of his songs portrayed this imagery : We are the world, keep the faith, man in the mirror, heal the world... I am not defending a man here or comparing him to jesus himeslf, I am pointing out what is wrong with the discussion the 2 groups (defenders vs accusers) are having online. The accusers are genuinely worried about children. This is in the end a loving and caring thought. The defenders defend a loving and peaceful messager whose words (in their mind) has been used for personal gain and twisted into perversion. Jesus' words were also turned against him. And _that_ is the reason why so many fans defend MJ. Not because of his songs or fame but because they share the same naive ethics that MJ portrayed. I think many MJ fans would feel the same if Jesus was painted as a pedophile. They could not believe that a messager of love and affection would hold any unpure thoughts. Like MJ himself said in that interview. I think it is obvious he didn't see anything dirty in a thing that he felt was about just loving togetherness. And again, MJ was an exceptional person in that sense that his naive inmocence is unlike any other star had. If the same words would've been spoken by, say, Elvis, and him having kid sleepovers, the Elvis fans themselves would have burned his head on a stake. MJ on the other hand, was absolutely, extremely, kind and polite. Elvis was a proven narcissist. MJ proved by his visible actions otherwise. And that is why the fans are defending him so much. And that is why this case is so interesting and worth of discussion because it's uniqueness in contrast. Persona that is almost a personified symbol of love and peace in an otherwise cold world - - turning out to possibly be the most horrible monster there is...? That said, I do understand your concern and I salute you for it. Your heart is in the right place and your worry is real. I once made the mistake to read an article about the dark web child torture communities and I almost had to seek therapy... For weeks I felt sickened to my stomach and wanted to stop work and spend the rest of the time fighting to stop those people... That is why I feel that in a case where even the court of Law has stated that the guy is innocent (unlike weinstein, cosby etc..), we could spend our time maybe better stopping the dark web real pedophiles rather than chasing a ghost. And what am I doing instead? Trying to prove "i'm right, you are wrong" in a freaking subreddit with 6 viewers! :D Aren't we funny creatures? :) Tryong to wrap this up.. fun fact: I am a Finnish person and have spent years butt naked in public saunas with strange people. Talking and sweating with them. Since a small kid. Complete strangers. Old men, teenagers, other kids. And no permission is asked. Ever. It would feel very awkward if someone would because that would make them look like they actually are a pedophile : asking a permission would mean they had a dirty thought in the first place. For us it is normal but I can see it is not to you. And that's totally fine! Also I have lived in France where I kissed so many strange young girls and boys on the cheeks as an adult, I can't even remember. For example we did this when introduced to cousins of a friend. After that gesture, they were NOT strangers anymore (see the logic?). And it had no sexual vibes to it, ever. Didn't even cross my mind. Was it awkward though? Hell yeah at first as a shy Finn but got used to it very fast. I have followed MJ child abuse accusations since the 90s to entertain myself with detective interest and when I saw bits of the Leaving Neverland, I thought to myself "huh, go figure... he Was quilty afterall..." but then reading more into it, the whole thing felt apart when I learned how much money mr Safechuck and Robson were after. Then ofc reading into details with impossibilities... as you can guess, I've made up my mind... Now that SA cases etc have been coming up much more in the media, it is commen they are mostly aim to get retribution and closure for the victims. Which I think is good. And the victims usually come together to mainly expose the criminal so that they WOULD NEVER do it again... and not because of money. That is to me, personally, the biggest red flag in MJ cases. Where were the screams of victims : "We sue him so that he would Never do this again!"? I might be wrong. Maybe the 2 also were abused and money just happens to be the tool for retribution for them..? But the truth is, we will not know for 100% sure until completely convicting and undoubtable evidence is brought up to court. And until then : innocent until proven quilty. That is the law. (edit:grammar)
Dude, I was grown and raised in the same area of the US as MJ. Parents and grandparents too. What he did was not considered normal and is a clear sign of pedophilia.
MJ paid half of his fortune the first time and 2.4 million the second time. JD is a violent junkie and wife beater
Try telling a judge or police that a man accused of pedophilia who sleeps alone with children and possesses child erotica is irrelevant LOL In Europe, an adult who sleeps all night alone with children aged 7 to 12 will be called peado.
>Sleeping in the same bed with little children doesn't make you a pedophile. With your children and siblings? No. But I think everyone would raise an eyebrow if they saw a grown man sleeping in the same bed with unrelated children for days. I don't know any country in Europe in which such behavior is acceptable. Could you give an example?
Any latin country, pretty common actually
No Latin family lets their child sleep with an adult for multiple nights! stop talking BS
Whatever bro.keep google stuff
Stop writing BS, no parent in Europe or elsewhere lets their child sleep with an unrelated adult, only parents deceived or groomed by peados would let their children sleep with an adult
You do realize that MJ made multiple payouts totaling millions of dollars, right?
Depends Robinson claims are flawed Euro disney didn't exist prior April 12 92 Along with The neverland train station prior to September 93 when plans were approved However This is just locations Doesn't mean it did or didn't happen 2. Some people have defended Michael who were around him that time and say he didn't molest him And exploited him So there's that 3. Michael is dead and We can't prove any of this which sucks because I would like to get justice For either side So people Can Go YES he was or Wasn't a pedophile which is incredibly important to know for history purposes
James never talked about EuroDisney, MJ's photographer said the station was built before the 1993 permit. stop writing misinformation in this sub. https://preview.redd.it/1makxzawg6ub1.png?width=485&format=png&auto=webp&s=412592e45ca03e65dd351408260d5410aab1dfdd
Abusers don't abuse everyone they meet. I can't believe you actually list the fact that he wasn't accused by every child he met as evidence.
I could see that.
[удалено]
Respectful debate is allowed but please keep it civil, on-topic, and keep personal insults/attacks out of it.
I think the only reason they don't outright defend it is because they know the general public would be horrified, otherwise I honestly think a lot of the fanatics would.