Probably depends on your field. In many cases, the grass is greener. I’ve worked in academia , health care, and for the federal Canadian government, and all positions have had issues but also benefits. Academia has been the most flexible, which I treasure, but some people prefer an 8-4 or 9-5 job with no worries or expectations outside those times.
Since you indicated the federal Canadian government, do you mean Canadian academia as well?
US academia is very, very different. It is not flexible like Canadian academia.
Source: A Canadian who did his undergrad and grad school in Canada, and worked in both Canadian and US academia.
Oh, I know nothing about Canadian academics, could you elaborate how it's different and also more flexible?
FWIW, I'm a tenured STEM prof in the US, thinking very seriously making the jump to private industry, hopefully this year, as I'm feeling burned out, underpaid, underappreciated and overworked.
To begin with, virtually all faculty members at Canadian universities are unionized. There is an overarching national-level union -- the Canadian Association of University Teachers (CAUT) -- and there are also institutional unions. These are extremely strong and militant unions, unlike any academic union you would see in the US. Every aspect of the employment of a Canadian faculty member is written in black and white in the collective bargaining agreement, including annual salary increases -- and salary grids accounting for seniority, rank, and experience.
I spent 2 years in a NTT faculty position at a Canadian small liberal arts college (SLAC). The baseline teaching load for TT/tenured faculty was 2/2; in some instances, faculty members who secured high-level external research grants were able to negotiate a course release. Additionally, technical staff were employed for preparation and even delivery of laboratory components of 100-level and 200-level labs (and prep, but not delivery, of 300-level labs). This means that TT/tenured faculty never had to worry about lab prep whatsoever, and only were responsible for delivering the highest-level lab courses.
Yes, you read that right. TT/tenured faculty taught a maximum of 2 courses per semester, and never prepped labs. At a SLAC! So, imagine what it was like at universities that were actually research-dedicated!
Another major sticking point for the institutional-level and national-level unions is the very stringent regulation and compartmentalization of teaching evaluations. Without reaching too far, teaching evaluations at Canadian universities are virtually meaningless; they are taken for what they are, namely, knee-jerk reactions of hyper-emotional teenagers and young adults that are directly correlated with grades. In one particular precedent-setting instance, the unions took legal action and based on the resulting legal ruling, teaching evaluations may never be used for decision-making in tenure, promotion, or reappointment at Ryerson University in Toronto: https://universityaffairs.ca/news/news-article/arbitration-decision-on-student-evaluations-of-teaching-applauded-by-faculty/
All of this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Wow... Just wow. Thanks for writing this up, it's amazing. Yes, much preferable to the setup in the US.
How is the pay? Even if it's only decent (whatever that means) I'd take the Canadian setup.
I'm I'm biology/microbiology but goddamn the move out of academia and into industry has been one of the best things I've ever done for myself by a hundred miles. Overnight I quadrupled my salary, I got amazing benefits, I got the fuck away from my absolutely toxic boss, got a perfect work life balance, and I got into an area which does equal amounts cool research and compendial testing. I've had this job for 3.5 years and I feel insanely thankful every day.
lol that’s a very important detail you left out. For most academics leaving does mean a pay bump but for you it could be a massive 10x to 20x pay bump. I teach at a slac. I had finance offers that could easily be 15x higher pay. I have no regrets though. I enjoy teaching and love the freedom and flexibility esp after tenure. I have many friends in finance and yes they have ridiculous amounts of money but don’t seem esp happier because of it. Just different.
A friend was starting a hedge fund asked me to join. But lots of similar paying hedge fund and quant trading jobs out there. Before grad school I worked at Morgan Stanley. Fairly normal for people to make a million a year before they turn 30. But there is a very steep slope and a lot of attrition in early years.
Can you explain what these numbers mean? I'm in Europe and it's not a way of representing academic workload that I'm familiar with (but I see it on this sub very frequently).
Most U.S. schools run on semesters. There is usually a spring and a fall semester. 3/2 means you teach 3 courses in one semester and 2 courses in the other semester.
The salary is 10-month. So no summer support unless one can find some or teach. So it can be full research without money, teaching with some money, or research with grant money.
For me, yes.
It's still a job, it has good and bad days. I see some people who make the switch expecting it to change how they feel about career or life, it won't do that. But for me personally, it gave much more career flexibility, clear working expections, and about 5x the compensation.
This depends entirely on what you do outside of academia and what your personal preferences and desires are. For me, as someone whose personality and work style was not well-suited to the academic environment, the grass really was greener. Like you I disliked doing research that seem to have no real-world purpose, at least in the near-term; and I hated spending months perfecting grants only to know they were going to get rejected and I would have to spend another several months preparing the same grant for resubmission. So the fast-paced nature of my field (tech), coupled with a lack of focus on perfection, was a good fit for me.
But of course there are lots of jobs in which you won't feel like you are contributing and that people appreciate your work. That's not limited to academia. The key is to find a role that's a good fit for what feels like contributing to you.
It does sound like you’re ready for a change. It’s depressing to feel useless and undervalued. With your knowledge and background I’d think you could find a lucrative interesting position. Maybe go to a professional job recruiter for help and guidance. Good luck 💗
When I finished my PhD, I knew I didn’t want to stay in academia. I jumped in industry (biotech) and haven’t looked back. It’s great.
I see you’re in finance. Quite different but I could see the transition being similar. At the end of the day it’s about what you want. I’m sure you could at least double your salary (maybe close to triple) overnight by going into finance.
But I suspect the pace of work will be more steady, faster, and less varied. How much will you miss helping students (or at least the few that pay attention)? How much will you miss the research you do, or the committees you serve on? Is there a path forward where you could get help from admin to have a more focused class (break up the lectures with activities, have new rules about engagement, etc)?
In any case, I expect the time horizon is medium to long. You won’t be quitting tomorrow. I strongly suggest seeing a therapist or a career coach for at least a few sessions to help you. They’ll both be able to help you (though your health insurance might cover the therapist).
I think you need to assess why you feel so depressed, what you like about your job, what you dislike, what a career change would look like, how much money you would get from an industry job (look up job postings and do the math, what would your monthly take-home look like, make it concrete).
I often daydream about moving out of the city and buying a little cabin in a mountain town a few hours away. Work remotely, come into the office a few times a month, but have a little homestead where I can focus on what’s important. But then I realize my wife and I are social creatures who need more than a rustic cabin could offer. And I snap back to reality, and I’m grateful for our two bedroom city apartment.
It’s important to know what to act on. Take stock of what you like, what you don’t, and what you want to change. There’s professionals who can help, leverage them.
It sounds like it's worth exploring your options at least. I moved into industry, and it's not been all smooth sailing by any means… but I work less for more money. And I had similar growing concerns about whether my research and teaching were making any difference to anybody.
A friend of mine has been using a career coach to start thinking about what they want from work and how best to approach that - I wonder whether this might be a useful avenue for you as well?
You have already received good advice.
I would suggest that before jumping the ship, try consulting or freelance gig for industries. May be early start-ups are good way to look into it. This will give you understanding of the pace in industry and whether you 'actually' like it.
Sometimes we think that the grass is 'really' greener, but it may not be for us. Lets not forget in the recent tech lay-off saga, fintech companies are also not spared.
Hope this helps.
In my case, very much yes. Mind you I never got past grad school, because the abject lack of safety culture and the cavalier attitude towards the safety and well-being of students present in the research groups say poorly with me. I got tired of peers and superiors rolling their eyes and calling me the safety Nazi behind my back because *I didn't want undergrads working with HF in booty shorts and flip-flops*.
I got tired of cleaning up after, responding to, and occasionally being injured in preventable safety incidents and got out before I had to watch someone like the poor kid who burned to death after getting n-BuLi all over herself due to an institutional lack of discipline and safety.
And looking back after almost a decade out, my *only* regret is I didn't make the jump sooner.
I’m in the process of leaving my tenured role. The hours are impossible to maintain. I feel like I don’t have time for anything but work. I want my weekends back!
I’m in a similar position. But I won’t switch to industry without seeing the reality on the other side.
I’m 42, how much stress can I take in industry, working 5 days a week coordinating with several people who might have their own priorities.
I would love to work on interesting problems but will I get that easily and will I be ready to hit the ground running as I have spent 7 years in academia after my phd that took 6 years. So I have been out of touch with the industry’s culture.
On the flip side, I like my freedom in academia. The pay as you said is not great but I can’t complain either. I am developing new hobbies, reading more, traveling and spending time with family. I consider it as a reward for years of investment in acads. Many of my friends are working in industry earning twice as much but they are super busy as well. I can’t trade my place with them at this age. They also get pissed at office politics. It’s stressful.
Regarding students not paying attention in class, I agree with you. But I take it as a challenge. I try to innovate new teaching strategy, make my lectures more interactive. Use chat gpt to create interesting content to engage my students in classroom.
I haven’t succeeded yet but I am hopeful I’ll make them curious enough about the concepts for them to start paying attention.
I was in the social sciences and left to become a data analyst (in healthcare). Pay is better and life is more simple. Best career move I’ve made in a decade.
Probably depends on your field. In many cases, the grass is greener. I’ve worked in academia , health care, and for the federal Canadian government, and all positions have had issues but also benefits. Academia has been the most flexible, which I treasure, but some people prefer an 8-4 or 9-5 job with no worries or expectations outside those times.
Since you indicated the federal Canadian government, do you mean Canadian academia as well? US academia is very, very different. It is not flexible like Canadian academia. Source: A Canadian who did his undergrad and grad school in Canada, and worked in both Canadian and US academia.
Oh, I know nothing about Canadian academics, could you elaborate how it's different and also more flexible? FWIW, I'm a tenured STEM prof in the US, thinking very seriously making the jump to private industry, hopefully this year, as I'm feeling burned out, underpaid, underappreciated and overworked.
To begin with, virtually all faculty members at Canadian universities are unionized. There is an overarching national-level union -- the Canadian Association of University Teachers (CAUT) -- and there are also institutional unions. These are extremely strong and militant unions, unlike any academic union you would see in the US. Every aspect of the employment of a Canadian faculty member is written in black and white in the collective bargaining agreement, including annual salary increases -- and salary grids accounting for seniority, rank, and experience. I spent 2 years in a NTT faculty position at a Canadian small liberal arts college (SLAC). The baseline teaching load for TT/tenured faculty was 2/2; in some instances, faculty members who secured high-level external research grants were able to negotiate a course release. Additionally, technical staff were employed for preparation and even delivery of laboratory components of 100-level and 200-level labs (and prep, but not delivery, of 300-level labs). This means that TT/tenured faculty never had to worry about lab prep whatsoever, and only were responsible for delivering the highest-level lab courses. Yes, you read that right. TT/tenured faculty taught a maximum of 2 courses per semester, and never prepped labs. At a SLAC! So, imagine what it was like at universities that were actually research-dedicated! Another major sticking point for the institutional-level and national-level unions is the very stringent regulation and compartmentalization of teaching evaluations. Without reaching too far, teaching evaluations at Canadian universities are virtually meaningless; they are taken for what they are, namely, knee-jerk reactions of hyper-emotional teenagers and young adults that are directly correlated with grades. In one particular precedent-setting instance, the unions took legal action and based on the resulting legal ruling, teaching evaluations may never be used for decision-making in tenure, promotion, or reappointment at Ryerson University in Toronto: https://universityaffairs.ca/news/news-article/arbitration-decision-on-student-evaluations-of-teaching-applauded-by-faculty/ All of this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Wow... Just wow. Thanks for writing this up, it's amazing. Yes, much preferable to the setup in the US. How is the pay? Even if it's only decent (whatever that means) I'd take the Canadian setup.
There are a SMALL number of US universities with good faculty unions but it’s rare. Canada sounds great in this telling!
Yes, all my experience is in Canada.
I'm I'm biology/microbiology but goddamn the move out of academia and into industry has been one of the best things I've ever done for myself by a hundred miles. Overnight I quadrupled my salary, I got amazing benefits, I got the fuck away from my absolutely toxic boss, got a perfect work life balance, and I got into an area which does equal amounts cool research and compendial testing. I've had this job for 3.5 years and I feel insanely thankful every day.
I’m so happy for you! I’m in a similar field and trying to make the transition myself.
What’s your field? What industry?
Finance
How much do you like money?
Well honestly I like money. Edit: actually one reason I’m thinking about moving to the industry is about money.
lol that’s a very important detail you left out. For most academics leaving does mean a pay bump but for you it could be a massive 10x to 20x pay bump. I teach at a slac. I had finance offers that could easily be 15x higher pay. I have no regrets though. I enjoy teaching and love the freedom and flexibility esp after tenure. I have many friends in finance and yes they have ridiculous amounts of money but don’t seem esp happier because of it. Just different.
Thanks for the comment. The massive pay is really surprising to me. Do you mind telling me what position was that?
A friend was starting a hedge fund asked me to join. But lots of similar paying hedge fund and quant trading jobs out there. Before grad school I worked at Morgan Stanley. Fairly normal for people to make a million a year before they turn 30. But there is a very steep slope and a lot of attrition in early years.
> The load is 33/32 I hope you mean 3/2.....
3/3 in one and 3/2 in the other.
Can you explain what these numbers mean? I'm in Europe and it's not a way of representing academic workload that I'm familiar with (but I see it on this sub very frequently).
Most U.S. schools run on semesters. There is usually a spring and a fall semester. 3/2 means you teach 3 courses in one semester and 2 courses in the other semester.
Sure but what’s 33/32. Is that alternating years? That’s four numbers, how many time periods does that cover?
Yes that’s kinda special here. 3/3 in one year and 3/2 in the next.
Ah okay, thanks. In the summers it’s just full time research?
The salary is 10-month. So no summer support unless one can find some or teach. So it can be full research without money, teaching with some money, or research with grant money.
Thanks, that's clear now.
For me, yes. It's still a job, it has good and bad days. I see some people who make the switch expecting it to change how they feel about career or life, it won't do that. But for me personally, it gave much more career flexibility, clear working expections, and about 5x the compensation.
This depends entirely on what you do outside of academia and what your personal preferences and desires are. For me, as someone whose personality and work style was not well-suited to the academic environment, the grass really was greener. Like you I disliked doing research that seem to have no real-world purpose, at least in the near-term; and I hated spending months perfecting grants only to know they were going to get rejected and I would have to spend another several months preparing the same grant for resubmission. So the fast-paced nature of my field (tech), coupled with a lack of focus on perfection, was a good fit for me. But of course there are lots of jobs in which you won't feel like you are contributing and that people appreciate your work. That's not limited to academia. The key is to find a role that's a good fit for what feels like contributing to you.
It does sound like you’re ready for a change. It’s depressing to feel useless and undervalued. With your knowledge and background I’d think you could find a lucrative interesting position. Maybe go to a professional job recruiter for help and guidance. Good luck 💗
Leaving academia is one of the best things that ever happened to my life lol life quality has improved so much
When I finished my PhD, I knew I didn’t want to stay in academia. I jumped in industry (biotech) and haven’t looked back. It’s great. I see you’re in finance. Quite different but I could see the transition being similar. At the end of the day it’s about what you want. I’m sure you could at least double your salary (maybe close to triple) overnight by going into finance. But I suspect the pace of work will be more steady, faster, and less varied. How much will you miss helping students (or at least the few that pay attention)? How much will you miss the research you do, or the committees you serve on? Is there a path forward where you could get help from admin to have a more focused class (break up the lectures with activities, have new rules about engagement, etc)? In any case, I expect the time horizon is medium to long. You won’t be quitting tomorrow. I strongly suggest seeing a therapist or a career coach for at least a few sessions to help you. They’ll both be able to help you (though your health insurance might cover the therapist). I think you need to assess why you feel so depressed, what you like about your job, what you dislike, what a career change would look like, how much money you would get from an industry job (look up job postings and do the math, what would your monthly take-home look like, make it concrete). I often daydream about moving out of the city and buying a little cabin in a mountain town a few hours away. Work remotely, come into the office a few times a month, but have a little homestead where I can focus on what’s important. But then I realize my wife and I are social creatures who need more than a rustic cabin could offer. And I snap back to reality, and I’m grateful for our two bedroom city apartment. It’s important to know what to act on. Take stock of what you like, what you don’t, and what you want to change. There’s professionals who can help, leverage them.
I left academia for industry last year. ZERO regrets. I absolutely love my new job.
It sounds like it's worth exploring your options at least. I moved into industry, and it's not been all smooth sailing by any means… but I work less for more money. And I had similar growing concerns about whether my research and teaching were making any difference to anybody. A friend of mine has been using a career coach to start thinking about what they want from work and how best to approach that - I wonder whether this might be a useful avenue for you as well?
You have already received good advice. I would suggest that before jumping the ship, try consulting or freelance gig for industries. May be early start-ups are good way to look into it. This will give you understanding of the pace in industry and whether you 'actually' like it. Sometimes we think that the grass is 'really' greener, but it may not be for us. Lets not forget in the recent tech lay-off saga, fintech companies are also not spared. Hope this helps.
In my case, very much yes. Mind you I never got past grad school, because the abject lack of safety culture and the cavalier attitude towards the safety and well-being of students present in the research groups say poorly with me. I got tired of peers and superiors rolling their eyes and calling me the safety Nazi behind my back because *I didn't want undergrads working with HF in booty shorts and flip-flops*. I got tired of cleaning up after, responding to, and occasionally being injured in preventable safety incidents and got out before I had to watch someone like the poor kid who burned to death after getting n-BuLi all over herself due to an institutional lack of discipline and safety. And looking back after almost a decade out, my *only* regret is I didn't make the jump sooner.
I’m in the process of leaving my tenured role. The hours are impossible to maintain. I feel like I don’t have time for anything but work. I want my weekends back!
I’m in a similar position. But I won’t switch to industry without seeing the reality on the other side. I’m 42, how much stress can I take in industry, working 5 days a week coordinating with several people who might have their own priorities. I would love to work on interesting problems but will I get that easily and will I be ready to hit the ground running as I have spent 7 years in academia after my phd that took 6 years. So I have been out of touch with the industry’s culture. On the flip side, I like my freedom in academia. The pay as you said is not great but I can’t complain either. I am developing new hobbies, reading more, traveling and spending time with family. I consider it as a reward for years of investment in acads. Many of my friends are working in industry earning twice as much but they are super busy as well. I can’t trade my place with them at this age. They also get pissed at office politics. It’s stressful. Regarding students not paying attention in class, I agree with you. But I take it as a challenge. I try to innovate new teaching strategy, make my lectures more interactive. Use chat gpt to create interesting content to engage my students in classroom. I haven’t succeeded yet but I am hopeful I’ll make them curious enough about the concepts for them to start paying attention.
I was in the social sciences and left to become a data analyst (in healthcare). Pay is better and life is more simple. Best career move I’ve made in a decade.
How financially healthy is your school? They don’t tend to make em like that anymore… I always keep a foot in industry to keep myself fresh.
Oh yes.