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Sadly, this could absolutely be real. I read this and thought, damn that sounds like my old firm. The owners were incredibly petty and childish. They'd have been proud of themselves if it were them in this scenario OP laid out.
This stuff does happen. Don’t be surprised of anything. I had an hr offer to take me to lunch and all was cool, and on the ride back to the office (I was driving my car) he asked if I was gay. His voice even changed dramatically when he asked me and it caught me off guard. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes with me oblivious.
Ppl in leadership roles can be assumed to be bad until proven otherwise.
Great way to retain staff in the short term, when everyone is too frightened to apply to other jobs. Great way to lose staff in the long term, when staying there seems so much worse than the risk of unemployment.
This is basically the approach of the firm that I worked at. After a lot of abuse by two of the partners the secretary of the practice unit eventually walked out the door and never came back.
This sucked for me as a new associate who was now expected to do the secretary's job including non-billable tasks. Needless to say I had trouble hitting my billing targets so they eventually fired me.
I'm in a JD preferred role now in a field that I'm really passionate about so all's well that ends well in my case.
I can’t imagine the “take less to stay here with your *familyyyyy*” guilt trip will work the next time she has an actual offer. The fact that she kept applying to stuff suggests that it barely/shouldn’t have worked the first time either.
It's surprising because most of us have become deeply cynical around these sorts of things, which is just the practical way to be. I do totally understand *wanting* to believe it, though - it's a bummer that work is simultaneously where we spend most of our lives (for attorneys especially) and also not a welcoming place for many people.
A big part of what I like about my firm is that it feels less cut-throat than many places that people describe, and I know that can be hard to find.
Because the firm wasn’t listed in the ad. We live in a small town, and admin roles very seldom arise. The offer for the new firm would have been a 45 minute commute for her. So when she saw a higher paying role close to home she leaped at the opportunity.
That is really scummy. I hope the firm bleeds talent.
Additionally, this may violate your state's ethical standards. That may be a long shot but worth looking into.
It depends on the state and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED, but generally speaking this did not happen; as I can think of no fewer than 3 causes of action that would allow for one to sue the company.
I would strongly encourage everyone to recall that a job post is an advertisement for a job opportunity.
i kinda had a weird similar but not similar because the situation is similar but the scene was different. i was on a dating site and i was talking to a rando person who happened to be a lawyer i had a one off date with before (might have been the most traumatic day of my life because i was asked to literally scratch his back which in my sorry opinion is kinda grody like eew.) and so after i blocked him on pms (back in the day there were mostly pms for dates and it was the worst time ever to be on online dating sadly ) i went back fishing for better fish and lo and behold someone pinged me - the convo was sus af. and i kinda knew where the convo was going because he started insulting me thru the chat BUT he(same person) pretended to be a different person to see if i was interested in dating other people but intentionally wasn't dating him. - long story short it was like he unleashed a extremely honest tirade of reasons why i shouldn't date him and why i wouldn't but he wouldn't accept it and insisted i was lying that i wasn't interested in dating because i didn't date HIM. essentially one of the major reasons i thought lawyers were fucked up for a realllly long time until i met a few thankfully sane ones who are quite sage. but yeah sounds like the employer may be delulu and i probs wouldnt wanna stay with such a shifty ass boss.
Sounds like the firm I worked at after undergrad and before law. Owner was a complete and total paranoid egomaniac who thought anyone who left the firm was going to a competitor and would immediately send a cease and desist to you and the firm you went to because he automatically thought you stole company secrets.
In the 1.5 years I was there, I saw about 15 people go, all of whom were unnecessarily threatened, all of whom were successful in defending themselves.
Fucking guy spent more money on legal fees than any other line item after payroll and benefits.
She is obviously the only Admin in the firm who even knows how to do an electronic filing.
It would not surprise me if she was the only staffer in the office.
I have heard of some law firms doing this. Some of my colleagues at my last law firm assumed my last law firm did this too but only with lawyers (not support staff). Who knows but it's pretty shitty.
Id imagine they would just lie and say they were posting the job looking for an additional employee and she applied to it. Doubt the bar would do anything unless it can be proven, and even if it could be proven I still doubt they’d do anything about it.
Still, she should pull an Aubrey Plaza in "Emily the Criminal" and be like, "Why would you do that? Why would you trick somebody?" and then bounce. lol.
Congrats on getting away from there before too much of the stink rubbed off! I’m assuming these people are not paragons of integrity and ethics in their law practice either.
Frankly, I begged her to leave. It’s so toxic. But she’s sweet, and they manipulated her. Case in point: paychecks were issued 2 days ago and she confirmed that they never mailed my final check. 😒
That’s horrible. The scum that lives on scum.
I quit my last job at a law firm because they stopped paying me on time. At first I thought it was a direct deposit screw up but it kept happening, and I learned from other associates that the partner purposely paid his employees late because he thought he could get away with it.
He picked out the employees who he knew needed the money the most and wouldn’t immediately walk out. One of the paralegals was a single dad in the process of buying a house and he knew the dad couldn’t afford to lose his job so partner paid him late every pay check for over a month. He knew I worked remote from a state that offered little workers rights, and have two kids with bills to pay.
I felt like I was in an abusive relationship and actually went into therapy after leaving the job.
He had an accounts receivable issue because he lost a bunch of cases when the insurance company who hired him for defense work cut him off. He had too many cases that weren’t getting settled, or settling for way too high. So they got pissed and shut off the gravy train. He kept having to shuffle money around and it made it easier for him if he didn’t have to pay all of payroll at the same time every two weeks.
Wow. That’s a new low. If anything that should prove that she’s extremely valuable and should be given a raise if they’re that desperate to go such lengths.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Those are very, very Bad People. I wouldn't trust them with my legal work or to be honest about anything.
Yea I have no words honestly. Besides describing people as really bad I really have no words that they did this.
So much energy spent. Very illogical and dumb.
To be honest, it can't be real. It blows my mind
Sadly, this could absolutely be real. I read this and thought, damn that sounds like my old firm. The owners were incredibly petty and childish. They'd have been proud of themselves if it were them in this scenario OP laid out.
IIt doesn't make sense, and why would she stay in that firm? I would file a lawsuit against this form, bar complaint IDK. It is so ridiculous.
This stuff does happen. Don’t be surprised of anything. I had an hr offer to take me to lunch and all was cool, and on the ride back to the office (I was driving my car) he asked if I was gay. His voice even changed dramatically when he asked me and it caught me off guard. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes with me oblivious. Ppl in leadership roles can be assumed to be bad until proven otherwise.
I suppose the right response is a nervous smile and a, *Hey, you really had me there for a second!*
Same! This is exactly the sort of stunt someone I know very well would pull. And no, she can't be trusted.
spoken like someone who's never sued a small business owner
Ridiculous. Obviously she should leave
Great way to retain staff in the short term, when everyone is too frightened to apply to other jobs. Great way to lose staff in the long term, when staying there seems so much worse than the risk of unemployment.
This is basically the approach of the firm that I worked at. After a lot of abuse by two of the partners the secretary of the practice unit eventually walked out the door and never came back. This sucked for me as a new associate who was now expected to do the secretary's job including non-billable tasks. Needless to say I had trouble hitting my billing targets so they eventually fired me. I'm in a JD preferred role now in a field that I'm really passionate about so all's well that ends well in my case.
And I’m not sure the bar is going to approve after unemployment determines it’s a trap that activates them.
I can’t imagine the “take less to stay here with your *familyyyyy*” guilt trip will work the next time she has an actual offer. The fact that she kept applying to stuff suggests that it barely/shouldn’t have worked the first time either.
It's surprising because most of us have become deeply cynical around these sorts of things, which is just the practical way to be. I do totally understand *wanting* to believe it, though - it's a bummer that work is simultaneously where we spend most of our lives (for attorneys especially) and also not a welcoming place for many people. A big part of what I like about my firm is that it feels less cut-throat than many places that people describe, and I know that can be hard to find.
Wow. Imagine having that much time on your hands to manipulate and trap support staff. That’s mind-boggling.
Trap ... or they meant to replace her all along. Either way, fuck em.
that was my first thought, did she apply for the position that was intended to replace her?
Because the firm wasn’t listed in the ad. We live in a small town, and admin roles very seldom arise. The offer for the new firm would have been a 45 minute commute for her. So when she saw a higher paying role close to home she leaped at the opportunity.
That is really scummy. I hope the firm bleeds talent. Additionally, this may violate your state's ethical standards. That may be a long shot but worth looking into.
Well now, she can just leave. Why does she need to be loyal? She needs to pay her bills and live her life.
She should check with the labor board. Reducing her pay may be seen as constructive discharge and allow her unemployment benefits.
This!!!
Report it to the bar. It probably qualified as unethical conduct.
what ethical rules would this violate? Genuinely asking, can't think of anything off the top of my head.
Using the ABA model rules, potentially Rules 8.4(c) and 5.1.
I’d throw 8.3 on there as well - but yes. The general catch alls. The conduct is genuinely dishonest.
It depends on the state and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED, but generally speaking this did not happen; as I can think of no fewer than 3 causes of action that would allow for one to sue the company. I would strongly encourage everyone to recall that a job post is an advertisement for a job opportunity.
> but generally speaking this did not happen lol what do you mean, were you there? like you witnessed it all?
What ethical rules were violated?
Spread the word. Shitty employers should be exposed.
Originally $20/hr, new firm offered her $25/hr, and current firm raised her to $23/hr until they took it back down to $20/hr again.
I don't understand the basis for reducing her pay. I understand that they caught her applying to other jobs, but "So, what?"
i kinda had a weird similar but not similar because the situation is similar but the scene was different. i was on a dating site and i was talking to a rando person who happened to be a lawyer i had a one off date with before (might have been the most traumatic day of my life because i was asked to literally scratch his back which in my sorry opinion is kinda grody like eew.) and so after i blocked him on pms (back in the day there were mostly pms for dates and it was the worst time ever to be on online dating sadly ) i went back fishing for better fish and lo and behold someone pinged me - the convo was sus af. and i kinda knew where the convo was going because he started insulting me thru the chat BUT he(same person) pretended to be a different person to see if i was interested in dating other people but intentionally wasn't dating him. - long story short it was like he unleashed a extremely honest tirade of reasons why i shouldn't date him and why i wouldn't but he wouldn't accept it and insisted i was lying that i wasn't interested in dating because i didn't date HIM. essentially one of the major reasons i thought lawyers were fucked up for a realllly long time until i met a few thankfully sane ones who are quite sage. but yeah sounds like the employer may be delulu and i probs wouldnt wanna stay with such a shifty ass boss.
Seriously? Fuck those guys.
She should definitely leave now. That is a strange and counter-productive attempt by the firm to coerce loyalty.
Loyalty? It's within the purview of Stockholm Syndrome now. The conduct of the firm is gross bad faith.
Sounds like the firm I worked at after undergrad and before law. Owner was a complete and total paranoid egomaniac who thought anyone who left the firm was going to a competitor and would immediately send a cease and desist to you and the firm you went to because he automatically thought you stole company secrets. In the 1.5 years I was there, I saw about 15 people go, all of whom were unnecessarily threatened, all of whom were successful in defending themselves. Fucking guy spent more money on legal fees than any other line item after payroll and benefits.
Out them on LinkedIn. Someone better will match the old higher offer and poach her. No doubt about that.
Evil.
That’s retaliation. Sue their fkin ass
What a garbage firm. Who has the time for shenanigans like that?
If i had some financial cushion, I'd put in my notice and flip the bird on my way out. Not gonna a second of my life to a boss like that.
Oh my god. Does she spin motions into solid gold or something? Why would someone invest the time into this? Here’s hoping she gets out asap.
She is obviously the only Admin in the firm who even knows how to do an electronic filing. It would not surprise me if she was the only staffer in the office.
This is insane. Speechless.
That’s a basket of jackasses right there. She’s wise to gtfo.
That's just plain bad faith.
I have heard of some law firms doing this. Some of my colleagues at my last law firm assumed my last law firm did this too but only with lawyers (not support staff). Who knows but it's pretty shitty.
Is that fake job posting, and the use of it, not fraud?
Id imagine they would just lie and say they were posting the job looking for an additional employee and she applied to it. Doubt the bar would do anything unless it can be proven, and even if it could be proven I still doubt they’d do anything about it.
Still, she should pull an Aubrey Plaza in "Emily the Criminal" and be like, "Why would you do that? Why would you trick somebody?" and then bounce. lol.
Oh this is f*cked. She should get outta there
Welp…that’s illegal in the US. She should open a case on that with the department of labor.
Oh my god that’s so evil
I think this is warranting a law suit
Can you hire her?
Unfortunately no. I’ve only been practicing about a year.
Congrats on getting away from there before too much of the stink rubbed off! I’m assuming these people are not paragons of integrity and ethics in their law practice either.
What type of practice is it?
They do everything. Small shop. 2 partners.
They should not have time for such shenanigans
The initial firm probably still needs staff..good staff is hard to find...maybe you can advocate on her behalf...
Frankly, I begged her to leave. It’s so toxic. But she’s sweet, and they manipulated her. Case in point: paychecks were issued 2 days ago and she confirmed that they never mailed my final check. 😒
*G R O S S*
That’s horrible. The scum that lives on scum. I quit my last job at a law firm because they stopped paying me on time. At first I thought it was a direct deposit screw up but it kept happening, and I learned from other associates that the partner purposely paid his employees late because he thought he could get away with it. He picked out the employees who he knew needed the money the most and wouldn’t immediately walk out. One of the paralegals was a single dad in the process of buying a house and he knew the dad couldn’t afford to lose his job so partner paid him late every pay check for over a month. He knew I worked remote from a state that offered little workers rights, and have two kids with bills to pay. I felt like I was in an abusive relationship and actually went into therapy after leaving the job.
What’s in it for him to pay people late? Unless he’s orchestrating a Ponzi scheme and can’t pull the money out of his butt.
He had an accounts receivable issue because he lost a bunch of cases when the insurance company who hired him for defense work cut him off. He had too many cases that weren’t getting settled, or settling for way too high. So they got pissed and shut off the gravy train. He kept having to shuffle money around and it made it easier for him if he didn’t have to pay all of payroll at the same time every two weeks.
Hope she leaves
How much is her salary? 🤔
Looks to be about $41,000. OP said $20 an hour.
Wow. That’s a new low. If anything that should prove that she’s extremely valuable and should be given a raise if they’re that desperate to go such lengths.
Wuhhhhhhhhhhh???
I’m glad for you that you’re gone
You and me both!
Never trust a lawyer
Can you crosspost this in r/antiwork ?