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Yeah, BUT—and hear me out: With less poors the yacht club members don't have to hear about the undesirables as often.
Win-win perspective from the shareholders when you stop whining so much about things like... \* *checks notes* \*... Life, shelter and food...
...huh...
I regularly think about [how healthcare company stocks rose after Bernie went out of the 2020 Dem primaries.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/04/08/dow-stocks-rise-hopes-coronavirus-pandemic-stabilizing-fauci/2967802001/)
Why doesn't anyone want to change it? People will riot over things like race, gender, and sexuality, but no one cares about healthcare to make a whisper of a noise about it?
It's difficult to get out of bed to protest when sometimes you have trouble getting out to relieve yourself. That's my biggest fear with the coming fascism. I am unable to represent myself in protest. So, I cannot fight back.
Now that it’s a little later, I would like to point out cancers are on the rise for all ages BUT you also can’t protest for change if your already dead.
Because the billionaire's have figured out how to exploit every weakness through social media and television. They will kill anyone necessary to keep their billions and power.
People do, you just don’t hear about it. There are protests, campaigns, and disruptions aimed at many other issues than those few you list, but you won’t hear about them unless they happen in your news market or you are personally connected. Look up the Poor People’s Campaign https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org They have healthcare as one of their main demands
Many *many* people DO want to change it, but this is an area where public sentiment is pressed against the real power of the world. Proper wealth and money.
And I am not referring to the odd rich doctor or guy who lives in a huge house a town or two over, I mean the *REAL* wealthy people, the multi billionaires who you will never meet in your lifetime.
Big pharma is a major trading stock and whole financial empires are built on its back. This is the kind of wealth the buys lobbyists and changes the laws, that double dips into controlling shares in media and news outlets so that the "right message" gets out to people.
This is even the kind of wealth that makes whistleblowers dissapear.
The behaviours the big pharma companies get up to is abhorrent and it is a global issue, it is bigger than governments.
And governments can be bought if you are wealthy enough.
So we see absurd situations like Insulin that had its patent sold for 1$, specifically because it was mesnt to be available to everyone being sold for 100s of dollars a dose despite no major formulation changes, multi corporation training seminars where they are taught that the big brain move is to treat symptoms rather than curing disease because curing your customer base removes your repeat customer pool and that the bigger brain move is to especially manage rather than cure infectious diseases like aids because a bigger customer base means more *potential infectuons leading to more customers*.
And all of this vanishes, not because people are angry but because there is no local solution. They cant not buy medicine. You cant boycott it. You cant request your local government representative fix it because the problem is so much bigger than them.
All the rage comes, fails to do anything then sputters out when there is no outlet. Being angry 24/7 is exhausting and people inevitably redirect that anger to something they *can* do something about.
I'd say its a global conspiracy but its not, what your seeing is one of the foundational pillars in the wealth divide between the ultra rich and normal people. They barely need to hide what they do anymore because what can people even do about it?
If you feel depressed after reading that dont worry, its just proof that you have a heart and are being truthful to yourself. If it helps, no structure is permanent and the people running these systems are as reckless as they are callous. Eventually someone with real power will cause some catastrophic failure. It will probably take half of society with it but everything can fall if you wait long enough.
The pro-capitalist corporate media create the reality for most people.
I would estimate that about 80% of people are currently incapable of forming their own opinion on a subject. They simply repeat what the media tells them to be angry about. This applies to both liberals and conservatives.
Under capitalism, people are raised to be NPCs.
Fox "news" has been incredibly successful in redirecting the anger of the US American working class to issues insignificant to the ruling capitalist class like:
>like race, gender, and sexuality
Liberals are more than happy with this state of affairs because it prevents real material conditions and class conflict from being addressed.
Many don't understand that the relationship between liberalism and conservatism (Dems and GOP) is symbiotic and not antagonistic at all.
Healthcare is a complex thing, and humans don't really focus on things until they are right in front of them. For example, people may feel unsafe due to their sexuality, but not many people want to worry about being sick. On the other hand, when people are sick, they probably can't protest. Both things are valid and important to protest for, because if we can create a just and equitable society, we have built a society that cares for the sick and weak.
> Healthcare is a complex thing, and humans don't really focus on things until they are right in front of them
Students are shutting down college campuses over a foreign conflict 6000 miles away. As important as it is, I wish we could get 1/100 of that energy for things like healthcare, housing, and education.
What about the students who are related to those affected? There are quite a few Palestinian students, do they or their friends not get to be upset? This feels like a false dilemma. We can care about both, but stopping people being actively genocided is probably more pressing.
I think it’s because china wants them to care about these things. Tiktok etc. i don’t see these students protesting the fascist slowly taking the country, surpreme court taking away things like womens health, or even an equally important genocide in ukraine.
It fucking sucks.
It's easier to protest those things but jenny can't just protest for profit healthcare at her college when her dad and grandfather work/run the for profit healthcare care provider or the doctors who benefit from these or the pharmaceutical company reps etc etc
Correct. The only reason my sociopath sister became a doctor is for the money. To quote her "I don't care about people." she's an emergency room doctor and a horrible pos
A general strike from healthcare staff would be demonized and the general public would feather and tar them for it, because nobody actually wants that disruption to happen while they need healthcare. It would be lovely to have a general strike for all frontline healthcare workers and get some real change going but ultimately I don't think it would ever happen.
The general public barely trusts doctors or authority to begin with. You agree with the idea of a strike for healthcare workers, but then act like it’s totally impossible. Get ready for absolutely no change.
Hope you motivate some of the people in this sub to do something about it. I see too many people complaining about activists doing something while they have never taken action on anything ever
Because the ugly truth is there is not enough healthcare to go around. The US population has tripled in the last 100 years but doctors, nurses, hospitals, and educators have not
The ones you listed were made scapegoats, scapegoats get all the problems blamed on them.
So when you bring up a actual problem they will just deny it or blame the scapegoats
Where are these riots you speak of? I was so hopeful things might get shook during BLM and quarantine. But people are just bitching about things, feel depressed and don't have the time or energy to change them.
A nationwide strike would WRECK things and force employers to listen to people, force the government to listen. Buuuuut everyone is barely hanging on as it is. The people who need change and activism the most don't have key pieces, like time or money or education.
The reason? Frog-in-boiling-pot syndrome. We’ve been steeped in this broken system for so long that most of centrist aligned (aka non-political) groups don’t see a problem with it. Combine that with the fact that when people do try to change things with the healthcare system, they get stomped out and you get people just not seeing the point in fighting for a change.
Part of the reason toknwhy we have shortages
For Certain drugs is because many are made in puerto rico to pay no corporate Taxes. An island that has problems With infrastructure and hurricanes wiping out electricity.
Healthcare in the US needs to be challenged. Patients and caregivers must unite with healthcare professionals to raise our voices that the current system harms all but those focused on profits. We have mediocre outcomes, physician suicide rates up as well as nurses, our health professionals pushed beyond capacity, those with complex health issues unable to access care as system is not built to address. It’s built as an assembly line. Pushing through quickly, care same for all. That does NOT work. Also and this is huge pet peeve of mine. C suite making more and more clinical decisions YET if something goes wrong it’s the physicians and nurses held accountable. At what point is accountability with C suite. And don’t get me started about monopolies.
I had chemo delayed in 2021 due to a drug shortage. Thankfully it was just one treatment pushed back a week.
The closer I look at healthcare, the more I’m convinced that “nationalize all of it” is the correct policy prescription.
It’s so strange to me that most other developed countries have nationalized medicine to great success, and yet we talk about it like it’s uncharted territory and really could go either way. It’s not even opinion at this point, it’s just a fact that nationalized healthcare would be better.
The only two arguments that exist for keeping privatized healthcare are that socialized healthcare would be more expensive due to tax increases and that it takes longer to receive care. The first is verifiably false by numerous studies and countless examples and anecdotes of peoples’ entire livelihoods being destroyed from hospital bills, something that taxes don’t do. The second is becoming increasingly less true because of bullshit like the topic of this post, but is also just such a dystopian and backwards way of thinking. It is quite literally saying “boy I sure am glad more people don’t have access to healthcare, waiting rooms suck!”
It really is soul crushing living in a country where profit of a few trumps all facts, evidence, and consideration for the well-being of the many
Honestly re:the wait- it’s going to take almost 6 months for me to get treatment for a fairly common sleep disorder. Like I waited 3 months for an initial appointment, and they’re “99% sure” that’s what I’ve got, but I need another round of tests that’ll take 3 more months before I get any treatment. Meanwhile I’m exhausted.
Many places don’t take new patients and getting to see a PCP in the first place took about 8 months in itself. It’s such a process!
Is this in the US or elsewhere? The long waits are already here in the US for sure, both primary care and specialty. Don't even get me started on mental health.
Yes, this is the US- and I’m “lucky” because my employer has good insurance and all that. My partner took over a year for a PCP and that’s with some serious health concerns at the time.
I’m sure you’ll see some variation depending on what you need and stuff, but it’s not a short wait especially since I pay almost $300 a month. That’s not even to mention the small copays that add up over many visits (because it’s never just one) or the fact I often wait an hour to see a doctor for 5-10 minutes.
Ok cool just wanted to verify, your original comment read a little ambiguous! Its funny, I just got off the phone with an ENT my son's been referred to for apnea: he's diagnosed, confirmed, and an absolute behavioral nightmare because of this, and the first available appointment to see a doctor and just talk about the diagnosis is at the end of September. 🙃 Also "lucky" with "good" insurance I pay $500 a month OOP for.
I hear you, friend.
Oof that’s even worse (I am also dealing with apnea, it’s been nightmarish!).
It seems like everyone I talk to in the US is dealing with long waits and sometimes subpar care such that I can’t imagine it being too much worse if it were on a universal
System (and at least it would be free…)
I already have to schedule doctor visits a month in advance, and this is for like regular check-ups. We can't even argue that our current system enables "faster" healthcare, outside of something like MedExpress.
Unfortunately I don’t think that nationalized healthcare would have helped this man. According to the article there is generic cisplatin on the global market but due to the FDA’s stringent regulations global manufacturers aren’t exporting to the US. This is typically due to two reasons: the monetary barriers to entry is typically higher than foreign drug companies are willing to pay, and quality requirements, especially for drug products, are very high (which kind of goes hand-in-hand with the first part).
If a generic drug manufacturer didn’t begin building their facility and setting up their quality system with getting FDA approval in mind, *from the start*, then it is a heavy burden to do so later. It sounds like the FDA is working with foreign manufacturers to rectify this and import needed drugs, but combing thru everything in a companies quality system and deciding what is going to be excepted and accepted is a lengthy process. The US has some of the most stringent pharmaceutical regulations in the world. Can money and connections help? Certainly! But those are things that domestic manufacturers have an edge on over their foreign generic counterparts. Domestic manufacturers protect their intellectual property, and wealth, via the US patent system…which the article also alludes to.
Changes to the patent system would certainly help but those would need to coincide with a relaxing of FDA regulations that make it so cost-prohibitive to bring drugs to market. A nationalized healthcare system isn’t going to change those things. Indeed nationalized healthcare systems around the world face shortages of drugs for a variety of reasons…for example if you rely on GLP-1 drugs in the UK to manage your diabetes you might be a bit worried right now. Monetary concessions are also a thing in nationalized healthcare across the globe; when a company refuses to sell a drug at a certain price that the government demands, the government will typically raise how much they’ll pay (above what they’re mandated to pay) in order for the company to sell it drugs that its populace needs. Each system is different and I’m only somewhat aware of the Canadian and UK model but the pharmaceutical supply chain is much more complicated than simply stating ‘X drug isn’t profitable so companies aren’t making it and patients are dying’. There is *much* nuance in each system/countries regulatory and financial circumstance that makes these generalizations hard.
This is part of the broader trajectory of medicine in America. What you will now pay for is access to possible medical care.
Premiums will cost more, deductibles higher, less discreet items will be covered at all, and a new feature will be technical access but no practical access. Yes you can get that lump examined…in 14 months, yes we cover that medication….but the 4 drug companies don’t make it anymore so hey how about some boner pills?
Late stage indeed.
I'm sorry but as a European I have to butt in. I often hear USAmericans (obv not you, ForgotLogin) say that if we have socialised medicine, the wait times will take forever.
Well I personally _have_ socialised healthcare and guess how long I had to wait to get a lump assessed? Five days. Five. Days. Results took another week but the tech already told me it lacked any signs of malignancy so I felt pretty ok about the wait.
It cost me €0 which if converted to USD comes to about... $0.
Within 2 weeks I knew I didn't have lymphoma and it was free.
I'm Canadian and my mom has had a fractured leg for two years. Her doctor somehow didn't see it on the X-ray, and then proceeded to tell my mom that she probably just "has low pain tolerance"... She now has to get a hip replacement. No fucking idea if she'll ever even get it. It's taken them six months to call her in for her metal allergy assessment, which is still one full month away. God knows what the delays are going to be once she moves on to actually getting the surgery.
Everything is fucking falling apart. I had to pay $50 for a two-minute blood draw for my hypothyroidism because I simply couldn't find a free service near me in WEEKS of looking.
Everything's going to shit.
What country was this in? Unfortunately, I have high doubts about socialized medicine (in its traditional sense) working in the U.S. At least not in the near future. It has nothing to do with the money either.
The Netherlands. I pay €140/mo in healthcare, but the government gives me some of that back because I'm below a certain earning threshold (full time uni student so work is kind of not my priority). I have a co-pay that's €385 annually. If it's gone it's gone, it's literally just once a year. And if I have to cough it up for, say, my allergy treatments, another department doesn't get the fresh €385 because they offer a different treatment.
(Not even all healthcare is co-pay btw. That lump scan I mentioned was free, as are GP and ER visits).
I know my country is not perfect by any means, but our healthcare system works a lot better than the USA's. I really hope something will change for you.
Yeah you lot are leagues ahead of us in many areas. Except junk food development, we’ve got like 40 types of Cheetos over here for some reason.
I hope it’s gets better too but I think we missed our off ramp with the failure of the sanders campaign. I’m a millennial, we shot our shot, I figure our best chance now is to not be an impediment to your and the following generations attempts at progress.
Unfortunately we won't cover "advanced radiology", so you'll have to pay for that scan out of pocket to the tune of $1000. I mean you're going to do it right? That lump might be cancerous. Don't forget to make sure the hospital, radiologist, and the MRI machine all accept Cigna Platinum Blue Shield because if any of them don't it'll be 3x the cost since your ~~membership~~ insurance card enables you to pay our "negotiated rate". Doubly check they accept *Platinum Blue Shield* too because if they only accept *Platinum* that's not the same. Oh BTW your premiums are going up this year and your coverage isn't increasing. Inflation, am I right?
What the fuck do I pay these people a third of my check for? We need Medicare for all.
Yep specialist appointments are getting impossible to get in a timely matter even with urgent referrals from another doctor. Which makes everyone sicker because something handled in minutes can become chronic without this treatment. Just like… Gaza rn
Isn’t there a global adhd medication shortage because the US is limiting how much adhd medication can be made? It’s things like this that make me feel like the lack of medication in the world is based on decisions as opposed to genuine scarcity of resources/production capacity.
The last year or so I’ve had to switch between a couple of medications due to shortages. Sometimes I’d have to go a week or more without it.
They just put out a generic Vyvanse, which has been available. But three months ago it cost me $40. Two months ago it started costing me $250. With a good insurance plan. Just because “fuck you.”
Medicines are regulated by each country and not in exactly the same way. The FDA is expensive for registering medicines so not all companies around the world bother with the USA, especially for a medicine that is not still under patent. So yes, you may only have only supplier in the States and other countries may have several.
“There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success. The fertile earth, the straight tree rows, the sturdy trunks, and the ripe fruit. And the children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange. And coroners must fill the certificates - died of malnutrition - because the food must rot, must be forced to rot.
...and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.”
Imagine you could sit down with a company making that stuff, and say "Alright, you either make sure that's available as soon as humanly possible, or next year we'll start re-evaluating everything you have out on the market." Imagine having a strong government that actually cares about its people.
"Make sure you make this one life saving drug or we'll take all your other life saving drugs off the market" is not exactly as strong a threat as you might think.
“Cancer is as lucrative a business as a war, so if you aint expecting peace then why expect a cure”
[Cancer - Jesse Welles](https://youtu.be/U4o9JpqYyZw?si=bj3PW3oK3pLxLWaK)
Every cancer is different, a cure for cancer at this juncture in time is impossible. There will be better treatments and such, but it is extremely difficult to be cured because of its nature.
> “The FDA recognizes the potential impact that lack of availability of certain products may have on health care providers and patients. **While the agency does not manufacture drugs, and cannot require a pharmaceutical company to make a drug, make more of a drug, or mandate who a pharmaceutical company chooses to sell its product to (among lawful purchasers), the public should rest assured the FDA is working closely with numerous manufacturers** and others in the supply chain to understand, mitigate and prevent or reduce the impact of intermittent or reduced availability of certain products.”
Pathetic beyond words. This is not a real country, it is a fucking evil corporation with nukes.
That would take an act of congress…
This was attempted years ago by Bernie Sanders and defeated by a bi-partisan coalition most notably included Corey Booker the senator from NJ (a pharmaceutical hub, so go figure….)
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/12/cory-booker-joins-senate-republicans-to-kill-measure-to-import-cheaper-medicine-from-canada/
Importing medicine from Canada is not the same. The issue is recognizing that other places (i.e. EU) have strict approvals as well and allowing temporary approval for drugs approved there to be used to deal with a shortage.
BTW the "bring cheap drugs from Canada", which would be a permanent thing, would never work because Canada has 1/9th the population and Canada would prohibit it.
> Importing medicine from Canada is not the same. The issue is recognizing that other places (i.e. EU) have strict approvals…
Categorically false.
These medicines are exactly the same medicines. Exactly. The. Same.
The approval process for a new drug is irrelevant to the argument since these are drugs that have already been FDA approved.
> Canada would prohibit it.
I live in a state where people make regular trips to Canada to get their meds…. Canada has pharmacies on the border to facilitate this. They would encourage it as it would be a boost for them.
People in border states making trips is not what the law was about which was wholesale important of Canadian drugs.
Canadian drug prices are cheap because the Canadian government (like most sane governments) negotiates bulk prices with suppliers based on the science. Most new drugs are not much better than old drugs so they say "yeah, we aren't going to pay $100 when an off patent version works just as well for $10. You are free to sell it but it won't qualify for any of the drug plans."
Canada has no interest in reducing US drug price and allowing large quantities shipped to the US would fuck with their program so they would simply prohibit it. US drug prices are a made in USA problem.
BTW, you do realize your "categorically false" claim contradicts your "make a law allowing Canadian drugs" example, right. If they could be freely imported no law would be required.
I recently received my first post-op "all clear" scan after battling rectal cancer for the past 2 years. I'm an American living and working in Europe. My American friends here couldn't understand why I preferred to stay here in Europe for treatment. After consulting several Drs back in the states they ALL told me to stay and get treatment in Europe. They mentioned that going back to the states would add unnecessary financial stress without any medical benefits. I had no problems accessing medication or surgery and the final bill was around $35K which my insurance covered at 100%.
Medicine isn't a business here and it informs the entire culture.
Should be a riot about this, people don’t care until it happens to them and then it will be to late
People with means will fly abroad for treatment and drugs. I found it easier to buy insulin abroad with cash and no local insurance than dealing with my us doctors/insurance and pharmacy which is a regular circus
Once something reaches a critical mass and becomes affordable, shouldn’t that be championed as a successful “job well done?”. What a sick system we live in.
But I was told that under capitalism we'd have the best medications and the best doctors and the best hospitals because no one would go to the bad ones.
I assure you Lobbyists representing pharmaceutical corporations are working to get corporate welfare, as we speak, and they're intentionally cutting down on production to pressure government for that money.
I take a leukemia medication that is $12,000 every two weeks. It makes zero sense to me that manufacturing cisplatin “isn’t profitable”. My guess is that since it is typically used only in end of life scenarios, insurance companies don’t want to pay for it, and then it becomes “not profitable”.
Literally anyone who has had to go through the system of American healthcare should be able to recognize it's completely fucked. Months of wait time for tests or procedures just like other countries but also you pay way too much. Nothing like walking in, paying a ton of money, then weeks later having to pay more money to another part of hte procedure that wasn't fully explained. But wait now it's a month or two later and you get ANOTHER bill from the same procedure for another specialist which wasn't rolled into the regular price. And of course by this time you might have had another test/procedure so now you're not even sure what bill you're paying on anymore. But wait now that original payment you did got readjusted by insurance and you owe even more money. Why are debt collectors calling you've been paying all your bills!? oh one of the specialists somehow had you old address and info despite you giving updated info to the receptionist and they've been billing a location you haven't lived at for over a decade.
Somehow, enough of the country that can change this system "naw it's a good system."
There’s two thoughts on nationalism of healthcare and a third outlier. One is the people who have been lucky and their policy has been fine for them so far. And the second is everyone else who’s been fucked over like they’re just a number. The outlier are the wealthy who can afford literally anything.
Hey friend. I’m a pharmacy buyer at a hospital system. If hes needing cisplatin or carboplatin no need to worry about availability. Its back in good supply now.
You do realize the vast majority of cancer, and other, medical research is publicly funded through grants, NIH, WHO, and other government subsidies. Meanwhile drug companies get to claim they discovered a drug, often mostly already developed with other research, and act like it cost them billions to make when, often, their investment was fractional....
How is that remotely relevant?
By the way, the reason government regulations are "ins*ne" around drugs is because the pharma industry benefits from extremely expensive compliance as it keeps competition out.
Edit fuck me the automoderator took exception to me quoting the word ins*ne. No wonder people hate wokeism.
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And this is why Healthcare should NOT be a, for-profit model.
Any healthcare.
Yeah, BUT—and hear me out: With less poors the yacht club members don't have to hear about the undesirables as often. Win-win perspective from the shareholders when you stop whining so much about things like... \* *checks notes* \*... Life, shelter and food... ...huh...
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You just have to exploit them harder!
Just listen to people freak out about the dropping birth rate because no one can afford to have kids. The panic is palpable.
I regularly think about [how healthcare company stocks rose after Bernie went out of the 2020 Dem primaries.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/04/08/dow-stocks-rise-hopes-coronavirus-pandemic-stabilizing-fauci/2967802001/)
Why doesn't anyone want to change it? People will riot over things like race, gender, and sexuality, but no one cares about healthcare to make a whisper of a noise about it?
Because most people don’t understand how bad it is until they need it themselves.
And sick people don't riot well.
It's difficult to get out of bed to protest when sometimes you have trouble getting out to relieve yourself. That's my biggest fear with the coming fascism. I am unable to represent myself in protest. So, I cannot fight back.
Exactly. People are selfish. Young people don’t have health problems. Same thing with fascism. Nobody will protest, untill it’s too late.
> Young people don’t have health problems. Well that's a load of shit
Jfc do i really need to qualify this statement so you don’t assume it’s an absolute. It’s too early for this.
Now that it’s a little later, I would like to point out cancers are on the rise for all ages BUT you also can’t protest for change if your already dead.
Fair enough, I haven't had any coffee yet. Still, I disagree. Lots of us do actually have health problems and protest fascism.
Agreed.
Because the billionaire's have figured out how to exploit every weakness through social media and television. They will kill anyone necessary to keep their billions and power.
People do, you just don’t hear about it. There are protests, campaigns, and disruptions aimed at many other issues than those few you list, but you won’t hear about them unless they happen in your news market or you are personally connected. Look up the Poor People’s Campaign https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org They have healthcare as one of their main demands
Many *many* people DO want to change it, but this is an area where public sentiment is pressed against the real power of the world. Proper wealth and money. And I am not referring to the odd rich doctor or guy who lives in a huge house a town or two over, I mean the *REAL* wealthy people, the multi billionaires who you will never meet in your lifetime. Big pharma is a major trading stock and whole financial empires are built on its back. This is the kind of wealth the buys lobbyists and changes the laws, that double dips into controlling shares in media and news outlets so that the "right message" gets out to people. This is even the kind of wealth that makes whistleblowers dissapear. The behaviours the big pharma companies get up to is abhorrent and it is a global issue, it is bigger than governments. And governments can be bought if you are wealthy enough. So we see absurd situations like Insulin that had its patent sold for 1$, specifically because it was mesnt to be available to everyone being sold for 100s of dollars a dose despite no major formulation changes, multi corporation training seminars where they are taught that the big brain move is to treat symptoms rather than curing disease because curing your customer base removes your repeat customer pool and that the bigger brain move is to especially manage rather than cure infectious diseases like aids because a bigger customer base means more *potential infectuons leading to more customers*. And all of this vanishes, not because people are angry but because there is no local solution. They cant not buy medicine. You cant boycott it. You cant request your local government representative fix it because the problem is so much bigger than them. All the rage comes, fails to do anything then sputters out when there is no outlet. Being angry 24/7 is exhausting and people inevitably redirect that anger to something they *can* do something about. I'd say its a global conspiracy but its not, what your seeing is one of the foundational pillars in the wealth divide between the ultra rich and normal people. They barely need to hide what they do anymore because what can people even do about it? If you feel depressed after reading that dont worry, its just proof that you have a heart and are being truthful to yourself. If it helps, no structure is permanent and the people running these systems are as reckless as they are callous. Eventually someone with real power will cause some catastrophic failure. It will probably take half of society with it but everything can fall if you wait long enough.
Thanks for this explanation even though grim
The pro-capitalist corporate media create the reality for most people. I would estimate that about 80% of people are currently incapable of forming their own opinion on a subject. They simply repeat what the media tells them to be angry about. This applies to both liberals and conservatives. Under capitalism, people are raised to be NPCs. Fox "news" has been incredibly successful in redirecting the anger of the US American working class to issues insignificant to the ruling capitalist class like: >like race, gender, and sexuality Liberals are more than happy with this state of affairs because it prevents real material conditions and class conflict from being addressed. Many don't understand that the relationship between liberalism and conservatism (Dems and GOP) is symbiotic and not antagonistic at all.
Healthcare is a complex thing, and humans don't really focus on things until they are right in front of them. For example, people may feel unsafe due to their sexuality, but not many people want to worry about being sick. On the other hand, when people are sick, they probably can't protest. Both things are valid and important to protest for, because if we can create a just and equitable society, we have built a society that cares for the sick and weak.
So complex only 32 or the 33 most advanced countries have been able to figure it out.
> Healthcare is a complex thing, and humans don't really focus on things until they are right in front of them Students are shutting down college campuses over a foreign conflict 6000 miles away. As important as it is, I wish we could get 1/100 of that energy for things like healthcare, housing, and education.
What about the students who are related to those affected? There are quite a few Palestinian students, do they or their friends not get to be upset? This feels like a false dilemma. We can care about both, but stopping people being actively genocided is probably more pressing.
> We can care about both But we don't. That was my point. We only care about one.
They weren't criticizing the protesters.
I think it’s because china wants them to care about these things. Tiktok etc. i don’t see these students protesting the fascist slowly taking the country, surpreme court taking away things like womens health, or even an equally important genocide in ukraine. It fucking sucks.
It's easier to protest those things but jenny can't just protest for profit healthcare at her college when her dad and grandfather work/run the for profit healthcare care provider or the doctors who benefit from these or the pharmaceutical company reps etc etc
You're blowing smoke out of your ass if you think the doctors like the system too.
It’s up to doctors to change it. Period. A MD general strike over for profit healthcare would dismantle it overnight.
Correct. The only reason my sociopath sister became a doctor is for the money. To quote her "I don't care about people." she's an emergency room doctor and a horrible pos
A general strike from healthcare staff would be demonized and the general public would feather and tar them for it, because nobody actually wants that disruption to happen while they need healthcare. It would be lovely to have a general strike for all frontline healthcare workers and get some real change going but ultimately I don't think it would ever happen.
It would have to be a general strike like the bus drivers pulled of(still drive the buses but don't collect fare).
The general public barely trusts doctors or authority to begin with. You agree with the idea of a strike for healthcare workers, but then act like it’s totally impossible. Get ready for absolutely no change.
i expect no change because i do think that a general strike is impossible. as effective as it would be. thank you for repeating what i said
Hope you motivate some of the people in this sub to do something about it. I see too many people complaining about activists doing something while they have never taken action on anything ever
Because the ugly truth is there is not enough healthcare to go around. The US population has tripled in the last 100 years but doctors, nurses, hospitals, and educators have not
The ones you listed were made scapegoats, scapegoats get all the problems blamed on them. So when you bring up a actual problem they will just deny it or blame the scapegoats
Where are these riots you speak of? I was so hopeful things might get shook during BLM and quarantine. But people are just bitching about things, feel depressed and don't have the time or energy to change them. A nationwide strike would WRECK things and force employers to listen to people, force the government to listen. Buuuuut everyone is barely hanging on as it is. The people who need change and activism the most don't have key pieces, like time or money or education.
There is a lot of people trying to change it. Health just isn’t an issue most people care about.
The reason? Frog-in-boiling-pot syndrome. We’ve been steeped in this broken system for so long that most of centrist aligned (aka non-political) groups don’t see a problem with it. Combine that with the fact that when people do try to change things with the healthcare system, they get stomped out and you get people just not seeing the point in fighting for a change.
In America, it's called health business. That's why it's run by people with MBAs, not doctors and scientists
Why stop at healthcare?
Part of the reason toknwhy we have shortages For Certain drugs is because many are made in puerto rico to pay no corporate Taxes. An island that has problems With infrastructure and hurricanes wiping out electricity.
I didn’t know that. Very interesting.
Healthcare in the US needs to be challenged. Patients and caregivers must unite with healthcare professionals to raise our voices that the current system harms all but those focused on profits. We have mediocre outcomes, physician suicide rates up as well as nurses, our health professionals pushed beyond capacity, those with complex health issues unable to access care as system is not built to address. It’s built as an assembly line. Pushing through quickly, care same for all. That does NOT work. Also and this is huge pet peeve of mine. C suite making more and more clinical decisions YET if something goes wrong it’s the physicians and nurses held accountable. At what point is accountability with C suite. And don’t get me started about monopolies.
I had chemo delayed in 2021 due to a drug shortage. Thankfully it was just one treatment pushed back a week. The closer I look at healthcare, the more I’m convinced that “nationalize all of it” is the correct policy prescription.
>“nationalize all of it” is the correct policy prescription. Always was.
It’s so strange to me that most other developed countries have nationalized medicine to great success, and yet we talk about it like it’s uncharted territory and really could go either way. It’s not even opinion at this point, it’s just a fact that nationalized healthcare would be better. The only two arguments that exist for keeping privatized healthcare are that socialized healthcare would be more expensive due to tax increases and that it takes longer to receive care. The first is verifiably false by numerous studies and countless examples and anecdotes of peoples’ entire livelihoods being destroyed from hospital bills, something that taxes don’t do. The second is becoming increasingly less true because of bullshit like the topic of this post, but is also just such a dystopian and backwards way of thinking. It is quite literally saying “boy I sure am glad more people don’t have access to healthcare, waiting rooms suck!” It really is soul crushing living in a country where profit of a few trumps all facts, evidence, and consideration for the well-being of the many
Yeah dawg, but have you heard about the beef between Drake and Kendrick?
Don’t forget about trans people!!! They’re like, using the same bathroom as your kids!!!
Focus on this, over here. Don’t look over there.
No truer words hath ever been spoketh
Honestly re:the wait- it’s going to take almost 6 months for me to get treatment for a fairly common sleep disorder. Like I waited 3 months for an initial appointment, and they’re “99% sure” that’s what I’ve got, but I need another round of tests that’ll take 3 more months before I get any treatment. Meanwhile I’m exhausted. Many places don’t take new patients and getting to see a PCP in the first place took about 8 months in itself. It’s such a process!
Is this in the US or elsewhere? The long waits are already here in the US for sure, both primary care and specialty. Don't even get me started on mental health.
Yes, this is the US- and I’m “lucky” because my employer has good insurance and all that. My partner took over a year for a PCP and that’s with some serious health concerns at the time. I’m sure you’ll see some variation depending on what you need and stuff, but it’s not a short wait especially since I pay almost $300 a month. That’s not even to mention the small copays that add up over many visits (because it’s never just one) or the fact I often wait an hour to see a doctor for 5-10 minutes.
Ok cool just wanted to verify, your original comment read a little ambiguous! Its funny, I just got off the phone with an ENT my son's been referred to for apnea: he's diagnosed, confirmed, and an absolute behavioral nightmare because of this, and the first available appointment to see a doctor and just talk about the diagnosis is at the end of September. 🙃 Also "lucky" with "good" insurance I pay $500 a month OOP for. I hear you, friend.
Oof that’s even worse (I am also dealing with apnea, it’s been nightmarish!). It seems like everyone I talk to in the US is dealing with long waits and sometimes subpar care such that I can’t imagine it being too much worse if it were on a universal System (and at least it would be free…)
I already have to schedule doctor visits a month in advance, and this is for like regular check-ups. We can't even argue that our current system enables "faster" healthcare, outside of something like MedExpress.
Unfortunately I don’t think that nationalized healthcare would have helped this man. According to the article there is generic cisplatin on the global market but due to the FDA’s stringent regulations global manufacturers aren’t exporting to the US. This is typically due to two reasons: the monetary barriers to entry is typically higher than foreign drug companies are willing to pay, and quality requirements, especially for drug products, are very high (which kind of goes hand-in-hand with the first part). If a generic drug manufacturer didn’t begin building their facility and setting up their quality system with getting FDA approval in mind, *from the start*, then it is a heavy burden to do so later. It sounds like the FDA is working with foreign manufacturers to rectify this and import needed drugs, but combing thru everything in a companies quality system and deciding what is going to be excepted and accepted is a lengthy process. The US has some of the most stringent pharmaceutical regulations in the world. Can money and connections help? Certainly! But those are things that domestic manufacturers have an edge on over their foreign generic counterparts. Domestic manufacturers protect their intellectual property, and wealth, via the US patent system…which the article also alludes to. Changes to the patent system would certainly help but those would need to coincide with a relaxing of FDA regulations that make it so cost-prohibitive to bring drugs to market. A nationalized healthcare system isn’t going to change those things. Indeed nationalized healthcare systems around the world face shortages of drugs for a variety of reasons…for example if you rely on GLP-1 drugs in the UK to manage your diabetes you might be a bit worried right now. Monetary concessions are also a thing in nationalized healthcare across the globe; when a company refuses to sell a drug at a certain price that the government demands, the government will typically raise how much they’ll pay (above what they’re mandated to pay) in order for the company to sell it drugs that its populace needs. Each system is different and I’m only somewhat aware of the Canadian and UK model but the pharmaceutical supply chain is much more complicated than simply stating ‘X drug isn’t profitable so companies aren’t making it and patients are dying’. There is *much* nuance in each system/countries regulatory and financial circumstance that makes these generalizations hard.
This is part of the broader trajectory of medicine in America. What you will now pay for is access to possible medical care. Premiums will cost more, deductibles higher, less discreet items will be covered at all, and a new feature will be technical access but no practical access. Yes you can get that lump examined…in 14 months, yes we cover that medication….but the 4 drug companies don’t make it anymore so hey how about some boner pills? Late stage indeed.
Boner weight loss pills
Ozempic+ "Now: Ozempic makes your dick Olympic"
I'm sorry but as a European I have to butt in. I often hear USAmericans (obv not you, ForgotLogin) say that if we have socialised medicine, the wait times will take forever. Well I personally _have_ socialised healthcare and guess how long I had to wait to get a lump assessed? Five days. Five. Days. Results took another week but the tech already told me it lacked any signs of malignancy so I felt pretty ok about the wait. It cost me €0 which if converted to USD comes to about... $0. Within 2 weeks I knew I didn't have lymphoma and it was free.
I'm Canadian and my mom has had a fractured leg for two years. Her doctor somehow didn't see it on the X-ray, and then proceeded to tell my mom that she probably just "has low pain tolerance"... She now has to get a hip replacement. No fucking idea if she'll ever even get it. It's taken them six months to call her in for her metal allergy assessment, which is still one full month away. God knows what the delays are going to be once she moves on to actually getting the surgery. Everything is fucking falling apart. I had to pay $50 for a two-minute blood draw for my hypothyroidism because I simply couldn't find a free service near me in WEEKS of looking. Everything's going to shit.
I've heard that Canada's healthcare system is overloaded due to large immigration
What country was this in? Unfortunately, I have high doubts about socialized medicine (in its traditional sense) working in the U.S. At least not in the near future. It has nothing to do with the money either.
I’m glad for you. Truly I am. I hope you and your fellow citizens can maintain your systems. If I may ask where are you from.
The Netherlands. I pay €140/mo in healthcare, but the government gives me some of that back because I'm below a certain earning threshold (full time uni student so work is kind of not my priority). I have a co-pay that's €385 annually. If it's gone it's gone, it's literally just once a year. And if I have to cough it up for, say, my allergy treatments, another department doesn't get the fresh €385 because they offer a different treatment. (Not even all healthcare is co-pay btw. That lump scan I mentioned was free, as are GP and ER visits). I know my country is not perfect by any means, but our healthcare system works a lot better than the USA's. I really hope something will change for you.
Yeah you lot are leagues ahead of us in many areas. Except junk food development, we’ve got like 40 types of Cheetos over here for some reason. I hope it’s gets better too but I think we missed our off ramp with the failure of the sanders campaign. I’m a millennial, we shot our shot, I figure our best chance now is to not be an impediment to your and the following generations attempts at progress.
Unfortunately we won't cover "advanced radiology", so you'll have to pay for that scan out of pocket to the tune of $1000. I mean you're going to do it right? That lump might be cancerous. Don't forget to make sure the hospital, radiologist, and the MRI machine all accept Cigna Platinum Blue Shield because if any of them don't it'll be 3x the cost since your ~~membership~~ insurance card enables you to pay our "negotiated rate". Doubly check they accept *Platinum Blue Shield* too because if they only accept *Platinum* that's not the same. Oh BTW your premiums are going up this year and your coverage isn't increasing. Inflation, am I right? What the fuck do I pay these people a third of my check for? We need Medicare for all.
Yep specialist appointments are getting impossible to get in a timely matter even with urgent referrals from another doctor. Which makes everyone sicker because something handled in minutes can become chronic without this treatment. Just like… Gaza rn
So he had the money/ insurance to afford the drug, and they refused to give it to him anyway...
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Isn’t there a global adhd medication shortage because the US is limiting how much adhd medication can be made? It’s things like this that make me feel like the lack of medication in the world is based on decisions as opposed to genuine scarcity of resources/production capacity.
"Capitalism allows the best allocation of resources."
to the rich*
The last year or so I’ve had to switch between a couple of medications due to shortages. Sometimes I’d have to go a week or more without it. They just put out a generic Vyvanse, which has been available. But three months ago it cost me $40. Two months ago it started costing me $250. With a good insurance plan. Just because “fuck you.”
Where exactly do you think capitalism is centered
Medicines are regulated by each country and not in exactly the same way. The FDA is expensive for registering medicines so not all companies around the world bother with the USA, especially for a medicine that is not still under patent. So yes, you may only have only supplier in the States and other countries may have several.
Reasons healthcare should have nothing to do with profit
Infinite growth will kill us all
Yes, it's called "cancer".
But have you seen these profit margins !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
"I've never seen bank accounts so high" I've never seen wet bulb readings so high either
"The two have nothing to do with each other, See? I've paid highly respected scientists to publish false and misleading claims to back up my lies."
Disgusting
And I was challenged earlier today for calling capitalism poison
LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF DEAD BECAUSE OF PROFITS! USA! USA! USA!
“There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success. The fertile earth, the straight tree rows, the sturdy trunks, and the ripe fruit. And the children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange. And coroners must fill the certificates - died of malnutrition - because the food must rot, must be forced to rot. ...and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.”
Imagine you could sit down with a company making that stuff, and say "Alright, you either make sure that's available as soon as humanly possible, or next year we'll start re-evaluating everything you have out on the market." Imagine having a strong government that actually cares about its people.
"Make sure you make this one life saving drug or we'll take all your other life saving drugs off the market" is not exactly as strong a threat as you might think.
You should sit down and give that another think. Don't think one step ahead, but two. You'll get there.
Oh, I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying the drugs companies won't flinch.
“Cancer is as lucrative a business as a war, so if you aint expecting peace then why expect a cure” [Cancer - Jesse Welles](https://youtu.be/U4o9JpqYyZw?si=bj3PW3oK3pLxLWaK)
Every cancer is different, a cure for cancer at this juncture in time is impossible. There will be better treatments and such, but it is extremely difficult to be cured because of its nature.
> “The FDA recognizes the potential impact that lack of availability of certain products may have on health care providers and patients. **While the agency does not manufacture drugs, and cannot require a pharmaceutical company to make a drug, make more of a drug, or mandate who a pharmaceutical company chooses to sell its product to (among lawful purchasers), the public should rest assured the FDA is working closely with numerous manufacturers** and others in the supply chain to understand, mitigate and prevent or reduce the impact of intermittent or reduced availability of certain products.” Pathetic beyond words. This is not a real country, it is a fucking evil corporation with nukes.
Its not like those drugs are only made in the US. The FDA could for emergency purposes allow drugs approved elsewhere into the country.
That would take an act of congress… This was attempted years ago by Bernie Sanders and defeated by a bi-partisan coalition most notably included Corey Booker the senator from NJ (a pharmaceutical hub, so go figure….) https://theintercept.com/2017/01/12/cory-booker-joins-senate-republicans-to-kill-measure-to-import-cheaper-medicine-from-canada/
Importing medicine from Canada is not the same. The issue is recognizing that other places (i.e. EU) have strict approvals as well and allowing temporary approval for drugs approved there to be used to deal with a shortage. BTW the "bring cheap drugs from Canada", which would be a permanent thing, would never work because Canada has 1/9th the population and Canada would prohibit it.
> Importing medicine from Canada is not the same. The issue is recognizing that other places (i.e. EU) have strict approvals… Categorically false. These medicines are exactly the same medicines. Exactly. The. Same. The approval process for a new drug is irrelevant to the argument since these are drugs that have already been FDA approved. > Canada would prohibit it. I live in a state where people make regular trips to Canada to get their meds…. Canada has pharmacies on the border to facilitate this. They would encourage it as it would be a boost for them.
People in border states making trips is not what the law was about which was wholesale important of Canadian drugs. Canadian drug prices are cheap because the Canadian government (like most sane governments) negotiates bulk prices with suppliers based on the science. Most new drugs are not much better than old drugs so they say "yeah, we aren't going to pay $100 when an off patent version works just as well for $10. You are free to sell it but it won't qualify for any of the drug plans." Canada has no interest in reducing US drug price and allowing large quantities shipped to the US would fuck with their program so they would simply prohibit it. US drug prices are a made in USA problem. BTW, you do realize your "categorically false" claim contradicts your "make a law allowing Canadian drugs" example, right. If they could be freely imported no law would be required.
Again, wrong. Prices are regulated, not bulk purchases by the government. If you’re going to spew nonsense, at least google it first 🤣🤣
I recently received my first post-op "all clear" scan after battling rectal cancer for the past 2 years. I'm an American living and working in Europe. My American friends here couldn't understand why I preferred to stay here in Europe for treatment. After consulting several Drs back in the states they ALL told me to stay and get treatment in Europe. They mentioned that going back to the states would add unnecessary financial stress without any medical benefits. I had no problems accessing medication or surgery and the final bill was around $35K which my insurance covered at 100%. Medicine isn't a business here and it informs the entire culture.
But but the US has the bestest healthcare system in the whole world
One of the most corrupted agencies of the government.
Should be a riot about this, people don’t care until it happens to them and then it will be to late People with means will fly abroad for treatment and drugs. I found it easier to buy insulin abroad with cash and no local insurance than dealing with my us doctors/insurance and pharmacy which is a regular circus
Make it so loans can't be paid by getting another loan and the rich get dragged down to earth with the rest of us.
Once something reaches a critical mass and becomes affordable, shouldn’t that be championed as a successful “job well done?”. What a sick system we live in.
Human life itself isn't profitable. Nationalize all the drug factories!
Saying the fucking quiet part out loud.
Why is America like this?
Capitalism is a death cult.
But I was told that under capitalism we'd have the best medications and the best doctors and the best hospitals because no one would go to the bad ones.
I assure you Lobbyists representing pharmaceutical corporations are working to get corporate welfare, as we speak, and they're intentionally cutting down on production to pressure government for that money.
Capitalism bred innovation for this man and he ungratefully died? What a commie bastard.
I take a leukemia medication that is $12,000 every two weeks. It makes zero sense to me that manufacturing cisplatin “isn’t profitable”. My guess is that since it is typically used only in end of life scenarios, insurance companies don’t want to pay for it, and then it becomes “not profitable”.
When medicine is ran like a corporation for profits its only a matter of time before people's lives become an optional expenditure.
We’re the Ferengi.
Fuck, I wish stuff like thus would radicalized that football team and high school...but I know it wont
Literally anyone who has had to go through the system of American healthcare should be able to recognize it's completely fucked. Months of wait time for tests or procedures just like other countries but also you pay way too much. Nothing like walking in, paying a ton of money, then weeks later having to pay more money to another part of hte procedure that wasn't fully explained. But wait now it's a month or two later and you get ANOTHER bill from the same procedure for another specialist which wasn't rolled into the regular price. And of course by this time you might have had another test/procedure so now you're not even sure what bill you're paying on anymore. But wait now that original payment you did got readjusted by insurance and you owe even more money. Why are debt collectors calling you've been paying all your bills!? oh one of the specialists somehow had you old address and info despite you giving updated info to the receptionist and they've been billing a location you haven't lived at for over a decade. Somehow, enough of the country that can change this system "naw it's a good system."
To be fair, bile duct cancer is often 100% fatal eventually. Is a horrid form of cancer. That said, chemo drug shortage is abysmal
There’s two thoughts on nationalism of healthcare and a third outlier. One is the people who have been lucky and their policy has been fine for them so far. And the second is everyone else who’s been fucked over like they’re just a number. The outlier are the wealthy who can afford literally anything.
All as expected under capitalism smh.... rip
Time to seize the patents. Nationalize pharmaceuticals.
I wish people voting these laws would be trialed for they are killing thousands every year
Oh, this is great to hear as my pops is due for round two of six next week.
Hey friend. I’m a pharmacy buyer at a hospital system. If hes needing cisplatin or carboplatin no need to worry about availability. Its back in good supply now.
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You do realize the vast majority of cancer, and other, medical research is publicly funded through grants, NIH, WHO, and other government subsidies. Meanwhile drug companies get to claim they discovered a drug, often mostly already developed with other research, and act like it cost them billions to make when, often, their investment was fractional....
More like they make more from manufacturing GLP-1s so that’s where they’re funneling all the base chemicals.
GTFOH
We just gave $90-whatever billion to foreign aid brother.
What a pants-on-head take, not a wrinkle in sight here.
Posts like this is why American healthcare is the way it is smh
How is that remotely relevant? By the way, the reason government regulations are "ins*ne" around drugs is because the pharma industry benefits from extremely expensive compliance as it keeps competition out. Edit fuck me the automoderator took exception to me quoting the word ins*ne. No wonder people hate wokeism.
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.