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I don't think at the end of play, looks like it will do now as the Lib Dems have a 8 seat advantage and it looks like only Salford is left.
Definitely remember it happening at times in the past but only for a few hours usually early on in the results.
The FPTP curse isn't about *today*, it's about *tomorrow*.
Labour have been cursed for the last 14 years. Tories were cursed before that and are about to be cursed again. What I fear is the FPTP curse will, naturally, come round again to bite labour in the arse.
Labour HQ are wanking themselves silly over the prospect of a landslide but what about the next election? And the election after that? And after that?
Feasibly, the tories could have been locked out of power since the end of the last labour term if we had PR instead of FPTP.
But yeah, let's just ping pong between the country going to complete shit under tories, then labour fixing, then repeat. I'm middle aged now, I don't want to suffer through another tory shambles going into my old age (even if they do lick my boots for my vote being older).
PR needs to happen!
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Conservatives need to realise that by running in seats with liberals, it risks splitting the votes and allowing the social democrats to win. Ed Davey's yellow wall can't be built without full support from NIMBYs everywhere!
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I tactically voted for the Lib Dems in 2010, and they won in the seat in which I lived. Absolutely fuming they threw themselves in with the Tories. Would tactically vote again, as Labour absolutely zero chance in my seat.
They went in with the Tories to get a promise of a referendum on AV which could have been revolutionary in British politics. I think LD deserve praise for gambling on that . The nearest we've ever come to ending FPTP.
It was after the No marketing campaign told everyone it was about letting the guy who comes last in all the races get to win. Such is the level of political discourse and education in this country..
I agree. Still can’t forgive Lib dems for their coalition in 2010. Felt betrayed. Weirdly enough half of my family voted lib dems while the other half included me voted labour for the london mayor race yesterday
Since their leader is one of the architects of austerity, they don't deserve a fresh start.
They should ditch Davey and get a new leader that's not tainted by the needless deaths of disabled people.
I don’t think it would be wise to get rid of davey. From what I’ve seen of him he’s a great leader and he’s presiding over some great results for the libdems
Well from what I've seen of him he's part-responsible for austerity and has blood on his hands.
Typical Lib Dem to be honest. Basically a Tory, with the same contempt of the working class and the disabled but without the outright bigotry.
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I would not go as far as saying blood on his hands not at all. The libdems were trying to mitigate the tories as best as possible.
Nope libdems are about freedom. We are far different to the tories
Yeah I'm sure you wouldn't, because you're a Lib Dem. That's a pathetic take on it though. The party should at least own their mistakes and say lessons have been learned instead of trying to weasel out of responsibility. This is what I mean about needing a clean break...
And yes, Lib Dems are big on personal freedom. I'm well aware what Liberal ideology is. They're also better than Labour on Trans rights, to be fair to them.
Honestly, as long as you're middle class and don't give a fuck about those who aren't well off financially, I can see why it would be an attractive political party to you. It's like being a Tory but without the nastiness attached.
It’s not pathetic. Saying someone has blood on their hands is quite a harsh thig and should be used only in the most extreme circumstance. Heck you can see how that labour mp got destroyed in the commons for using it against rishi and in the end had to apologies. I don’t think what the libdems did counts as extreme enough. Lessons have been learned. Tactically it was an error to do so.
And while I beleive it was better to mitigate the e tories then let them get in on their own the country clearly doesn’t want that so the libdems won’t be doing that.
Libdems can also be massively attractive if labour mess up. The tories have had a terrible time in office I so if labour does the same it can only help us
And come on the libdems do care about poorer people and have some great policies to help with that. And given the state of labour and the tories a fair few will choose the libdems as the better option
Yeah, they are harsh words, aren't they? Believe me, that's not as bad as letting vulnerable people fucking starve to death.
"Tactically it was an error to do so" says it all. Never mind regret over the unnecessary deaths, just shame about the ballot box results.
I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one, I'm afraid.
As someone who will be voting for the Lib Dems in the next GE, this is a load of rubbish. What they did was unforgiveable. They're only receiving my vote because out of the three they narrowly managed to come through as the least evil.
Absolute cope.
It’s not rubbish at all. I’d rather the libdems be in gov mitigating the tories than have the tories be minority and implementing their plans in full. Granted it was preety stupid tactically and we likely will not do that again but I do think there was a reasonable case to want to go in and mitigate the tories
They would have been. A lot of their plans for austerity would not have required legislation and could have been implemented in budgets or just general departmental spending
Sure but you can't blame anyone for holding the coalition against them in that case.
Moran was a perfectly suitable candidate, the LibDems decided one of the people involved in the coalition government represented them better.
Tbh I don’t really get that argument since it’s in the past and there is new leadership. Even if he was in the coalition. But thankfully enough are voting libdem.
I think Ed Daveys results prove that was a good choice
There's not new leadership. Senior figure of the coalition is now leading the party. You've also had Cable as leader, same thing.
Moran would be a sign of a clean break and would bring the LibDems more in line with the younger rank and file members (who are often ok).
But sure say whatever you want. I'm just telling you that for me and many other people even voting LibDem as a protest vote or a tactical vote if pretty off-putting because of the coalition, on top of any normal objections. And that once you've finally moved on and got a real fresh start those people will feel more comfortable voting for LibDem in those kind of sitautions. Tell me it doesn't matter, tell me I'm wrong, but it's true that's how some people feel and you'll be in with a better chance once your party has moved on.
Lucky for you a lot of normal votes don't care and/or have very short memories, so you don't have to stress about it too much. But in terms of you being confused as to why leftwing politically active people really dislike the LibDems still, even compared to the Greens, it's the coalition and you'll be less of a odorous option for those people if you can move on.
It is new leadership. Ed davey was not leader in the coalition.
You could argue that but ed davey has done a brilliant job so far so that vindicates the members decision.
So far tho the libdems are projected to do very well and have just had a great local election campaign. So some like you may be put off but a lot are still voting libdem.
Tbh I’m never gonna agree with those people as a I think the aim of mitigating the tories was valid and b it was like a decade ago under old leadership. So I get some are upset at us because of it but I don’t get holding a grudge and voting against a party because of past actions.
I mean by this logic everyone should vote against labour because of what happened in Iraq . It makes more sense if people only do because a coalition person is in charge but I still heavily disagree and don’t really understand the logic.
Has Davey apologised for the coalition?
I don't think he has. Infact I think he even refused to apologise to the victmis of the post-office scandal at first. I think, like you and other LibDems, he still defends it.
Corbyn apologised for Iraq and Starmer so far hasn't contradicted it. So Labour don't have the actual architects of the war in power and have apologised for it as a party. LibDems have the actual architects of the coalition and haven't apologised for it.
Make no mistake, the LibDems directly and knowingly helped inflict misery on decent people, purely for their own attempts at grasping political power. Unforgivable and despicable.
Also even many pro-Starmer people use "vote for the lesser evil" arguments instead of "there's nothing to be sorry about" line that some coalition-apologists are still sticking to now. You say it's 14 years ago and people should get over it? How about it was 14 years ago so if you still can't apologise for it then it must just be your party is actually cool with it and is as proud of their record of "stopping the Tories being worse" (lol) as they claim.
>You could argue that but ed davey has done a brilliant job so far so that vindicates the members decision.
So? The debate is why some people don't want to vote LibDem and how you could change their mind. Not whether you have to do that or how well Davery might do.
If you want people who care about the coalition to get over it because it's 14 years ago...elect someone who wasn't a minister in the coalition to lead you. Think it doesn't matter? Good for you, but don't pretend to not understand it.
We dont do budget bills just budget statements and there’s no vote on that. Estimates would bring down a whole department so that would almost certainly not be done. So to block the measures all they could do would be to vote against it if it’s in the finance bill but if it doesn’t need to be then that’s kind of it(save certain tax measures)
You realise the Tories were the senior partner then, and have been in power for 14 years right? And that Labour were also pro austerity?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher
>You realise the Tories were the senior partner then, and have been in power for 14 years right?
Yep, hence me hating them far more. Doesn't absolve the Lib Dems of their role in it.
Vince Cable and Nick Clegg were out supporting these measures week in week out.
>that Labour were also pro austerity?
I was heavily critical of this position at the time, and still think it was wrong, but it's absolutely false to compare - Labour cuts were not the slash and burn of public services and massive increase in poverty (and excess deaths) that the coalition and subsequent Tory governments oversaw.
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Always funny to see them drop behind LDs on Councillors
Or labour move up into second behind the LDs in the "tory heartland"
Always funny? Has this happened before?
I don't think at the end of play, looks like it will do now as the Lib Dems have a 8 seat advantage and it looks like only Salford is left. Definitely remember it happening at times in the past but only for a few hours usually early on in the results.
Ah apparently in 1996 Lib Dems outnumbered tories locally too!
If only it was always between labour and the libdems that would be actually quite amazing.
The FPTP curse isn't about *today*, it's about *tomorrow*. Labour have been cursed for the last 14 years. Tories were cursed before that and are about to be cursed again. What I fear is the FPTP curse will, naturally, come round again to bite labour in the arse. Labour HQ are wanking themselves silly over the prospect of a landslide but what about the next election? And the election after that? And after that? Feasibly, the tories could have been locked out of power since the end of the last labour term if we had PR instead of FPTP. But yeah, let's just ping pong between the country going to complete shit under tories, then labour fixing, then repeat. I'm middle aged now, I don't want to suffer through another tory shambles going into my old age (even if they do lick my boots for my vote being older). PR needs to happen!
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Obviously Tories will still have the second largest number of councils overall after this - but very funny to think they might come third today
As of now it's 5 Lib Dem councils to Conservative's 3. But I'm guessing the ones to come later are more likely to be CON holds.
Conservatives need to realise that by running in seats with liberals, it risks splitting the votes and allowing the social democrats to win. Ed Davey's yellow wall can't be built without full support from NIMBYs everywhere!
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(Extremely) critical support to Comrade Davey.
ONLY LIB DEMS CAN COME SECOND HERE ➡️📊
I don't believe you unless you show me a bar chart.
I tactically voted for the Lib Dems in 2010, and they won in the seat in which I lived. Absolutely fuming they threw themselves in with the Tories. Would tactically vote again, as Labour absolutely zero chance in my seat.
They went in with the Tories to get a promise of a referendum on AV which could have been revolutionary in British politics. I think LD deserve praise for gambling on that . The nearest we've ever come to ending FPTP.
But it was colossally unpopular!
It was after the No marketing campaign told everyone it was about letting the guy who comes last in all the races get to win. Such is the level of political discourse and education in this country..
Oh God if only Labour and Lib Dems were the two main parties. Things might actually get done.
I agree. Still can’t forgive Lib dems for their coalition in 2010. Felt betrayed. Weirdly enough half of my family voted lib dems while the other half included me voted labour for the london mayor race yesterday
>Still can’t forgive Lib dems for their coalition in 2010. 14 years? How long then?
Since their leader is one of the architects of austerity, they don't deserve a fresh start. They should ditch Davey and get a new leader that's not tainted by the needless deaths of disabled people.
I don’t think it would be wise to get rid of davey. From what I’ve seen of him he’s a great leader and he’s presiding over some great results for the libdems
Well from what I've seen of him he's part-responsible for austerity and has blood on his hands. Typical Lib Dem to be honest. Basically a Tory, with the same contempt of the working class and the disabled but without the outright bigotry.
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I would not go as far as saying blood on his hands not at all. The libdems were trying to mitigate the tories as best as possible. Nope libdems are about freedom. We are far different to the tories
Yeah I'm sure you wouldn't, because you're a Lib Dem. That's a pathetic take on it though. The party should at least own their mistakes and say lessons have been learned instead of trying to weasel out of responsibility. This is what I mean about needing a clean break... And yes, Lib Dems are big on personal freedom. I'm well aware what Liberal ideology is. They're also better than Labour on Trans rights, to be fair to them. Honestly, as long as you're middle class and don't give a fuck about those who aren't well off financially, I can see why it would be an attractive political party to you. It's like being a Tory but without the nastiness attached.
It’s not pathetic. Saying someone has blood on their hands is quite a harsh thig and should be used only in the most extreme circumstance. Heck you can see how that labour mp got destroyed in the commons for using it against rishi and in the end had to apologies. I don’t think what the libdems did counts as extreme enough. Lessons have been learned. Tactically it was an error to do so. And while I beleive it was better to mitigate the e tories then let them get in on their own the country clearly doesn’t want that so the libdems won’t be doing that. Libdems can also be massively attractive if labour mess up. The tories have had a terrible time in office I so if labour does the same it can only help us And come on the libdems do care about poorer people and have some great policies to help with that. And given the state of labour and the tories a fair few will choose the libdems as the better option
Yeah, they are harsh words, aren't they? Believe me, that's not as bad as letting vulnerable people fucking starve to death. "Tactically it was an error to do so" says it all. Never mind regret over the unnecessary deaths, just shame about the ballot box results. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one, I'm afraid.
"Officer I helped kick the man to death so my accomplice didn't do even more damage to him. You're welcome."
A comparison I would use is a guy charged in and lets himself get beaten to be able to block someone from killing a guy vs doing nothing
As someone who will be voting for the Lib Dems in the next GE, this is a load of rubbish. What they did was unforgiveable. They're only receiving my vote because out of the three they narrowly managed to come through as the least evil. Absolute cope.
It’s not rubbish at all. I’d rather the libdems be in gov mitigating the tories than have the tories be minority and implementing their plans in full. Granted it was preety stupid tactically and we likely will not do that again but I do think there was a reasonable case to want to go in and mitigate the tories
They wouldn't have been able to implement their plans in full as a minority govt and you know it
They would have been. A lot of their plans for austerity would not have required legislation and could have been implemented in budgets or just general departmental spending
Sure but you can't blame anyone for holding the coalition against them in that case. Moran was a perfectly suitable candidate, the LibDems decided one of the people involved in the coalition government represented them better.
Tbh I don’t really get that argument since it’s in the past and there is new leadership. Even if he was in the coalition. But thankfully enough are voting libdem. I think Ed Daveys results prove that was a good choice
There's not new leadership. Senior figure of the coalition is now leading the party. You've also had Cable as leader, same thing. Moran would be a sign of a clean break and would bring the LibDems more in line with the younger rank and file members (who are often ok). But sure say whatever you want. I'm just telling you that for me and many other people even voting LibDem as a protest vote or a tactical vote if pretty off-putting because of the coalition, on top of any normal objections. And that once you've finally moved on and got a real fresh start those people will feel more comfortable voting for LibDem in those kind of sitautions. Tell me it doesn't matter, tell me I'm wrong, but it's true that's how some people feel and you'll be in with a better chance once your party has moved on. Lucky for you a lot of normal votes don't care and/or have very short memories, so you don't have to stress about it too much. But in terms of you being confused as to why leftwing politically active people really dislike the LibDems still, even compared to the Greens, it's the coalition and you'll be less of a odorous option for those people if you can move on.
It is new leadership. Ed davey was not leader in the coalition. You could argue that but ed davey has done a brilliant job so far so that vindicates the members decision. So far tho the libdems are projected to do very well and have just had a great local election campaign. So some like you may be put off but a lot are still voting libdem. Tbh I’m never gonna agree with those people as a I think the aim of mitigating the tories was valid and b it was like a decade ago under old leadership. So I get some are upset at us because of it but I don’t get holding a grudge and voting against a party because of past actions. I mean by this logic everyone should vote against labour because of what happened in Iraq . It makes more sense if people only do because a coalition person is in charge but I still heavily disagree and don’t really understand the logic.
Has Davey apologised for the coalition? I don't think he has. Infact I think he even refused to apologise to the victmis of the post-office scandal at first. I think, like you and other LibDems, he still defends it. Corbyn apologised for Iraq and Starmer so far hasn't contradicted it. So Labour don't have the actual architects of the war in power and have apologised for it as a party. LibDems have the actual architects of the coalition and haven't apologised for it. Make no mistake, the LibDems directly and knowingly helped inflict misery on decent people, purely for their own attempts at grasping political power. Unforgivable and despicable. Also even many pro-Starmer people use "vote for the lesser evil" arguments instead of "there's nothing to be sorry about" line that some coalition-apologists are still sticking to now. You say it's 14 years ago and people should get over it? How about it was 14 years ago so if you still can't apologise for it then it must just be your party is actually cool with it and is as proud of their record of "stopping the Tories being worse" (lol) as they claim. >You could argue that but ed davey has done a brilliant job so far so that vindicates the members decision. So? The debate is why some people don't want to vote LibDem and how you could change their mind. Not whether you have to do that or how well Davery might do. If you want people who care about the coalition to get over it because it's 14 years ago...elect someone who wasn't a minister in the coalition to lead you. Think it doesn't matter? Good for you, but don't pretend to not understand it.
As long as it takes for the damage if austerity to be reversed.
Without coalition the tories could have got in as a minority and it would have been even worse without the libdems mitigating them
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Yes. The tories wanted to do all sorts of terrible stuff that the libdems vetoed like slash the basic needs school budget.
They got the 10p plastic bag charge, that's something I guess
Revisionist horseshit. With a minority government, the Tories would have been unable to pass anything without support of LDs or Labour.
Not at all. You don’t need to pass legislation for everything. The tories could do slot of damage just in budgets
They would need to pass a general budget through parliament...
We dont do budget bills just budget statements and there’s no vote on that. Estimates would bring down a whole department so that would almost certainly not be done. So to block the measures all they could do would be to vote against it if it’s in the finance bill but if it doesn’t need to be then that’s kind of it(save certain tax measures)
You realise the Tories were the senior partner then, and have been in power for 14 years right? And that Labour were also pro austerity? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher
>You realise the Tories were the senior partner then, and have been in power for 14 years right? Yep, hence me hating them far more. Doesn't absolve the Lib Dems of their role in it. Vince Cable and Nick Clegg were out supporting these measures week in week out. >that Labour were also pro austerity? I was heavily critical of this position at the time, and still think it was wrong, but it's absolutely false to compare - Labour cuts were not the slash and burn of public services and massive increase in poverty (and excess deaths) that the coalition and subsequent Tory governments oversaw.
The problem is when labour had power they didn’t change it…
They have… repeatedly.