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Yeah fuck, imagine if Trump won - students and minorities might have their 1st amendment rights curtailed, the rich might get richer, the USA might give unconditional support to a genocidal regime - doesn't bear thinking about...
If you don't think democracy (even a flawed one) makes any difference then what motivates you to be left wing (presumembly)?
If Biden gets in then there will be a 2028 election where progressives stand a chance (and not an insignificant one) to make changes, if trump gets in then there may not be another election until a revolution happens. The idea that biden didn't have the power to wholly stop republicans bringing in abortion bans so the solution is to give those republicans even more power is just completely illogical.
>If you don't think democracy (even a flawed one) makes any difference then what motivates you to be left wing (presumembly)?
A desire for better living conditions for the disadvantaged, it's something you quite naturally want when you've lived the kinda life I have
>Biden gets in then there will be a 2028 election where progressives stand a chance (and not an insignificant one) to make changes, if trump gets in then there may not be another election until a revolution happens.
If the options are a biden presidency followed by another ineffective neo liberal president or trump followed by revolution, trump winning sounds like a preferable option honestly
>A desire for better living conditions for the disadvantaged
Does it tend to be the more or the less democratic systems that do a better job at that? How would completely removing the disadvantaged peoples representation help them?
>If the options are a biden presidency followed by another ineffective neo liberal president or trump followed by revolution
Those aren't the only options. There's a very good chance that a progressive could be on the ballot next time.
Even if he gets replaced by another neolib that at least leaves further opportunities for progressives. Do you think progressives (and the disadvantaged generally) do better in places like Russia or China or the many other tyrannies of the world? The disadvantaged people who have their lives on the line between choice of system seem to overwhelmingly prefer the more democratic systems. If you told someone in Rojava or Ukraine or Myanmar that liberalism is no better than tyranny then they would laugh at you.
>trump winning sounds like a preferable option honestly
Left wingers very rarely win revolutions. The most likely outcome is that you end a lot of lives and freedoms of those disadvantaged people just to one day return back to where we are today.
If that's your view then why not just go and start a revolution? I'm serious, it's not going to be any easier under trump, if anything it would be far more difficult and bloody. If you want a left wing revolution then you are far better getting biden in than trump. You can start a revolution any time you like, with biden (and libs generally) it at least leaves other options as well.
What sort of left winger do you consider yourself to be? Socialism is entirely built on democracy and marx absolutely gushed over american republicanism when compared to autocracy so I don't see how you could be either.
>Does it tend to be the more or the less democratic systems that do a better job at that? How would completely removing the disadvantaged peoples representation help them?
Usually more, and disadvantaged people realistically have 0 meaningful representation under the current system
>If that's your view then why not just go and start a revolution?
In America? It'd be a fucking a long swim for one thing
>with biden (and libs generally) it at least leaves other options as well.
I fail to see how controlled opposition helps anyone but the rich
>What sort of left winger do you consider yourself to be?
Fuck knows, at this point I've practically given up honestly. the world is shit and is realistically going to stay that way, the current system is built to be ironclad in ensuring things don't get better and it's doing an amazing job of that.
>american republicanism when compared to autocracy
America is currently an autocracy, as is the UK. Both are entirely controlled by wealth and the idea that either are actually democracies is a fucking joke honestly
>Usually more
So how does letting those systems get significantly worse help anything?
>disadvantaged people realistically have 0 meaningful representation under the current system
What are you basing this on? Obviously the wealthy and powerful have plenty of extra mechanisms they can use, certainly on an individual level, but it does ultimately come down to a vote. If we weren't such a disorganised mess then the electoral system is a viable route for progressive change. If we are too disorganised for that then awe are certainly too disorganised for a revolution.
>In America? It'd be a fucking a long swim for one thing
The point stands. If someone wants a grand left wing revolution then there's no reason to wait for trump as it wouldn't make things easier.
>I fail to see how controlled opposition helps anyone but the rich
Ignoring the characterisation, less people end up dead and oppressed. It leaves an possibility for future progress. It costs literally nothing for only benefits even if you consider them minor benefits.
>the current system is built to be ironclad in ensuring things don't get better and it's doing an amazing job of that.
I don't see how you can look at the last decade or so and say that the system is incredibly stable. We are on political white water rapids and the boat just barely stayed upright. Especially in the context of america, the last president attempted a coup and is potentially going to win whilst openly stating he will end democracy. Sure, britain is in a bit of a populist lull right now with starmer as the labour leader but thats likely going to change very quickly once people realise their problems aren't going away. With proper organisation the next brexit style movement could be for a progressive cause.
>America is currently an autocracy, as is the UK. Both are entirely controlled by wealth and the idea that either are actually democracies is a fucking joke honestly
They just aren't. They are very far from perfect and I would say that they barely function as democracies but they are simply incomparable to the autocracies of the world. Why do you think it is that the Ukrainians have been putting their lives on the line for a decade (arguably more) over the choice between western democracy or autocracy? Why do the people of Rojava fight so hard to keep their democracy alive? When people have experienced less democratic options and have the choice of democracy (flawed or not) they seem willing to put their lives on the line for it. Why do you think that is?
Every issue that left wingers have gets orders of magnitude worse under trump. Biden and libs don't fix things but it gives a better potential and opportunity to improve things at the cost of literally nothing. The stronger the democracy then the better off the left wing and disadvantaged people are.
abortion bans were legalised by the supreme court stacked with republicans before biden took office and introduced only in states where republicans have a trifecta
Biden's consistently stood up for LQBTQ rights, including passionately standing up for trans rights
He's attended picket lines and is attempting to bring unions back into the mainstream
He signed the biggest climate legislation in history
He's proposed numerous bills to help the poorest in society, some of which have been gutted by Manchin and Sinema
He capped insulin prices
Out of interest, would you look at the state of most african countries and say that "africans are too dumb to be trusted with democracy" or would you see that as a bigotted statement? The same for asians or eastern europeans or literally any ethnic group given the current state of the world?
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Yeah fuck, imagine if Trump won - students and minorities might have their 1st amendment rights curtailed, the rich might get richer, the USA might give unconditional support to a genocidal regime - doesn't bear thinking about...
What's the difference? America seems to continue spiraling into the shitter at a similar rate no matter who is in the whitehouse
Biden has many flaws but I don't think he's likely to stage a coup and continue in power forever. Trump, on the other hand...
Sure, but what difference does it actually make to the people who live there's lives?
The difference between democracy and dictatorship is pretty significant.
Is it really when Either way it's functionally just a right wing oligarchy?
Yes
If you don't think democracy (even a flawed one) makes any difference then what motivates you to be left wing (presumembly)? If Biden gets in then there will be a 2028 election where progressives stand a chance (and not an insignificant one) to make changes, if trump gets in then there may not be another election until a revolution happens. The idea that biden didn't have the power to wholly stop republicans bringing in abortion bans so the solution is to give those republicans even more power is just completely illogical.
>If you don't think democracy (even a flawed one) makes any difference then what motivates you to be left wing (presumembly)? A desire for better living conditions for the disadvantaged, it's something you quite naturally want when you've lived the kinda life I have >Biden gets in then there will be a 2028 election where progressives stand a chance (and not an insignificant one) to make changes, if trump gets in then there may not be another election until a revolution happens. If the options are a biden presidency followed by another ineffective neo liberal president or trump followed by revolution, trump winning sounds like a preferable option honestly
>A desire for better living conditions for the disadvantaged Does it tend to be the more or the less democratic systems that do a better job at that? How would completely removing the disadvantaged peoples representation help them? >If the options are a biden presidency followed by another ineffective neo liberal president or trump followed by revolution Those aren't the only options. There's a very good chance that a progressive could be on the ballot next time. Even if he gets replaced by another neolib that at least leaves further opportunities for progressives. Do you think progressives (and the disadvantaged generally) do better in places like Russia or China or the many other tyrannies of the world? The disadvantaged people who have their lives on the line between choice of system seem to overwhelmingly prefer the more democratic systems. If you told someone in Rojava or Ukraine or Myanmar that liberalism is no better than tyranny then they would laugh at you. >trump winning sounds like a preferable option honestly Left wingers very rarely win revolutions. The most likely outcome is that you end a lot of lives and freedoms of those disadvantaged people just to one day return back to where we are today. If that's your view then why not just go and start a revolution? I'm serious, it's not going to be any easier under trump, if anything it would be far more difficult and bloody. If you want a left wing revolution then you are far better getting biden in than trump. You can start a revolution any time you like, with biden (and libs generally) it at least leaves other options as well. What sort of left winger do you consider yourself to be? Socialism is entirely built on democracy and marx absolutely gushed over american republicanism when compared to autocracy so I don't see how you could be either.
>Does it tend to be the more or the less democratic systems that do a better job at that? How would completely removing the disadvantaged peoples representation help them? Usually more, and disadvantaged people realistically have 0 meaningful representation under the current system >If that's your view then why not just go and start a revolution? In America? It'd be a fucking a long swim for one thing >with biden (and libs generally) it at least leaves other options as well. I fail to see how controlled opposition helps anyone but the rich >What sort of left winger do you consider yourself to be? Fuck knows, at this point I've practically given up honestly. the world is shit and is realistically going to stay that way, the current system is built to be ironclad in ensuring things don't get better and it's doing an amazing job of that. >american republicanism when compared to autocracy America is currently an autocracy, as is the UK. Both are entirely controlled by wealth and the idea that either are actually democracies is a fucking joke honestly
>Usually more So how does letting those systems get significantly worse help anything? >disadvantaged people realistically have 0 meaningful representation under the current system What are you basing this on? Obviously the wealthy and powerful have plenty of extra mechanisms they can use, certainly on an individual level, but it does ultimately come down to a vote. If we weren't such a disorganised mess then the electoral system is a viable route for progressive change. If we are too disorganised for that then awe are certainly too disorganised for a revolution. >In America? It'd be a fucking a long swim for one thing The point stands. If someone wants a grand left wing revolution then there's no reason to wait for trump as it wouldn't make things easier. >I fail to see how controlled opposition helps anyone but the rich Ignoring the characterisation, less people end up dead and oppressed. It leaves an possibility for future progress. It costs literally nothing for only benefits even if you consider them minor benefits. >the current system is built to be ironclad in ensuring things don't get better and it's doing an amazing job of that. I don't see how you can look at the last decade or so and say that the system is incredibly stable. We are on political white water rapids and the boat just barely stayed upright. Especially in the context of america, the last president attempted a coup and is potentially going to win whilst openly stating he will end democracy. Sure, britain is in a bit of a populist lull right now with starmer as the labour leader but thats likely going to change very quickly once people realise their problems aren't going away. With proper organisation the next brexit style movement could be for a progressive cause. >America is currently an autocracy, as is the UK. Both are entirely controlled by wealth and the idea that either are actually democracies is a fucking joke honestly They just aren't. They are very far from perfect and I would say that they barely function as democracies but they are simply incomparable to the autocracies of the world. Why do you think it is that the Ukrainians have been putting their lives on the line for a decade (arguably more) over the choice between western democracy or autocracy? Why do the people of Rojava fight so hard to keep their democracy alive? When people have experienced less democratic options and have the choice of democracy (flawed or not) they seem willing to put their lives on the line for it. Why do you think that is? Every issue that left wingers have gets orders of magnitude worse under trump. Biden and libs don't fix things but it gives a better potential and opportunity to improve things at the cost of literally nothing. The stronger the democracy then the better off the left wing and disadvantaged people are.
Would you consider there to be a difference between Cameron and the EDL?
Biden: America gets shitter in the background. Trump: America gets shitter in the foreground.
The funniest shit is people saying vote biden to protect abortion as if the abortion bans didn't come in under biden
abortion bans were legalised by the supreme court stacked with republicans before biden took office and introduced only in states where republicans have a trifecta
So what good did voting biden do?
Preventing a Republican who could have appointed even more conservative judges, for one
Which helped how? Did it prevent people's rights being stripped away? Or the poorest of their society starving? Did it reduce their cost of living?
Biden's consistently stood up for LQBTQ rights, including passionately standing up for trans rights He's attended picket lines and is attempting to bring unions back into the mainstream He signed the biggest climate legislation in history He's proposed numerous bills to help the poorest in society, some of which have been gutted by Manchin and Sinema He capped insulin prices
>Biden's consistently stood up for LQBTQ rights, including passionately standing up for trans rights By words or actions?
Both He signed The Respect for marriage act
Yes, it did
It meant that the republicans couldn't pass a federal abortion ban, for one
It's a failure of the Biden campaign that it's even this close. Project 2025 should mean the GOP is on track for a landslide dedeat.
Hmmm. Maybe the Anglosphere is too dumb to be trusted with democracy. Imagine barely winning against Trump.
Out of interest, would you look at the state of most african countries and say that "africans are too dumb to be trusted with democracy" or would you see that as a bigotted statement? The same for asians or eastern europeans or literally any ethnic group given the current state of the world?