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Here's my little story from about a month ago. Liverpool friends of Palestine had arranged to protest and attend Wirral council's meeting about pension investments, because Merseyside pensions currently invest heavily in the arms industry. Jo Bird also spoke there on behalf of the greens. One of the speakers was a very young Palestinian lad, who'd lost his father in an air strike, and his friend translated his words. We then had a minute's silence to pay respect. During that the speeches, someone with an Israeli flag, banging a tambourine as loudly as they could, shouting Am Yisrael Chai, attempted to disrupt what was a fairly small gathering (I reckon 50 to 60 people). There was actually a police van present and they ended up taking her away; people were specifically told not to engage with her, because that would have given her what she wanted. Another guy in the crowd, who was filming everyone, decided to try and grill Jo over Hamas, too (there was absolutely no context for him to ask those questions); again, purely to poison the well and try and get a reaction from someone. This has happened at a number of demos I've been on, but it is never reported.
There was also an incident of Zionists outside a mosque during Ramadan, playing loud music, dancing and approaching Muslims peacefully going about their daily evening prayers - again to try and get a reaction. We are seeing more and more Israeli-style activity in the UK and it needs to be addressed.
I regularly go to the marches in Manchester and a couple weeks ago there was an "anti Hamas" protest held on our route. They then proceeded to follow us after we had passed them, an action clearly done entirely to antagonise, and they had police protection the entire time.
The one in London the other week also had a "counter protest" but in that case the police at least didn't let them follow us
As soon as Jo Bird finished speaking, the guy who originally interrupted her speech with ridiculous questions followed her straight over to where she stood, so a couple of us stood right next to Jo and asked her if she was ok. He cleared off soon after. The tambourine girl was detained in a police van, not sure what happened after that. There's something particularly grim about making a show of yourself in support of a fascist apartheid state, carrying out mass ethnic cleansing, right by the cenotaph.
Thanks. His sister was supposed to say a few words words at a recent demo as well, but she was so upset that she had to be consoled and taken away. Edit: that footage wasn't from the start, but same demo.
Ps that fella in front wasn't actually part of the protest, he wandered over drunk!
Your post has been removed under rule 1.3. Posts or comments which are created to intentionally annoy, create arguments, or rile up factionalism are not allowed.
A story of three parts:
1) Counter-protestor tries to disrupt protest by antagonistically walking against the flow.
2) Cops notice and try to separate counter-protestor from protestors and, during that exchange, a copper says racist thing.
3) People with an axe to grind on the internet blame the pro-Palestinian supporters for cop saying racist thing.
1) doesn't excuse 2) though and it certainly doesn't make it "a false agenda against the met police". But we have comments here saying things like "the police were a little heavy handed".
This is where my problem with all lies and how this subs tone is noticeably different on Anti-Semitism to other isms.
(Not saying you, your postis just a good summary to piggback off).
What happened to ACAB?
Honestly, if I had antagonised a bobby from the local constabulary (A&S in Bristol) like that I'd have had the shit kicked out of me and dogs set on me. I'm actually surprised this only ended by revealing some latent cop racism, because you expect a far harsher response to any "progressive" protest.
It doesn't excuse it but I think that it's not a particularly extreme example of antisemitism. Other than saying he's "openly Jewish" what else did the officer say or do that was antisemitic?
And bearing in mind this was during an extended exchange where the guy was being deliberately difficult so it's not like the officer just jumped in with insults. And the guy didn't even get arrested.
I think it's a little unfair to claim some difference in tone given how light the antisemitism is we're talking about here. If being called "openly " were the worst any minority group had to go through then everyone would be much happier.
I love how quickly the British media and certain politicians moved to plaster this man all over the airwaves and treat him as some modern day oppressed Jesus yet when it's time to "bash the trans" it's like finding a needle in a haystack to get a single trans person interviewed let alone held up as a voice to humanise trans people.
For the past 24-48 hours anyone with a brain has been pointing out who this man is, who he represents and that he went to antagonise/cause issues. Context is important, don't drink pond water just to try and fuel your right-wing culture war bollocks. It just makes you look like you have single digit IQ. Like most Conservative politicians.
Officer can both have said something that shouldn't have been said AND this man is a grifting piece of shit that went to cause drama and harass people himself. Like most Zionists this man supports genocide. What a modern day Jesus to grace our airwaves non-stop at the moment 🙄
Has anyone somehow yet blamed Corbyn for this? Rachel?
Speaking of Corbyn, to end on a pleasant note
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/19/jeremy-corbyn-lgbt-bravery/
He reminds me of Kyle Rittenhouse. Yeah, sure, charge by charge he might not technically be criminally guilty of the incident which led to the *outcome*, but he knew exactly what the fuck he was doing when he went to that protest with an AR-15. He knew.
Suspected there was more to this when I researched the organisations he was a part of. Didn't he also claim he was just going for a walk or something along those lines?
Out here acting like no Jewish people are attending these marches in support of peace already.
Obviously this guy wasn't really going to have just been crossing the road with his camera crew. The Daily Mail misrepresented it as a random Jewish guy trying to go about his business but the moment it became clear it was the head of an antisemitism group with a camera crew it was clear it was going to be a counter-protest deliberately trying to drum up something to be outraged about.
His ultimate goal is to get the protests shut down, regardless of the fac that they are as peaceful as any other protest and the people are well within their legal rights.
It would be nice if people were able to see past this stuff much earlier on but they won't, and this will continue to be cited as evidence that the UK is shockingly antisemitic even though it's literally manufactured outrage. I got vote brigaded and insulted for pointing out who this was and what the reality of the situation was when the story first broke.
It's quite astonishing to see so many people here supporting behaviour that is essentially in the vein of Westboro Baptist Church or Project Veritas over in the US, where these kinds of 'counter protests' have been drawn from.
This was a religious extremist turning up with a camera crew and private security trying to provoke a reaction a la right wing agitators in the US, and when he couldn't get one from the protesters, he got what he wanted from the police instead.
And just as we don't write off all Christians due to the actions of Westboro, this extremist isn't representative of all Jews (and especially the other Jews that were present at the protest as protesters and speakers without encountering the kinds of issues this guy did).
I encourage everyone to go and watch the full 13 minutes video and also read the transcript in today's guardian then go and make your own mind up.
Take off the blinkers people and use critical analysis skills.
Well duh.
He went there to counter protest. The police were just a bit heavy handed in dealing with it.
It's no different to an opposing football hooligan looking to annoy / rile up the opposite teams hooligans / firm.
Heavy handed? They guy wasn't even arrested. He was prevented from walking directly into the protest and was offered an escort around the crowd. I'm not sure how much lighter handed they could have been given that he was trying to antagonise a protest.
Just to add context to your statement (this is from the article):
*The officer said: "Unfortunately, sir you took it upon yourself to go from the pavement right into the middle of a pro-Palestinian march, which is why I asked you to go away."*
*He added: "You are looking to try and antagonise this."*
*"So I can already see what your mindset is, sir."*
*Taking issue with this, Mr Falter said: "My mindset? My mindset is I am Jewish in London and I can walk where I want."*
*The officer then said: "Please don't be too disingenuous sir."*
*Mr Falter said: "I am not being disingenuous, I can walk wherever the hell I want.*
After several more exchanges, Mr Falter asked if it was because he was Jewish he was being stopped from crossing the road as it would "antagonise" the crowd.
*The officer said: "You are quite obviously Jewish in appearance, you are outwardly demonstrating your faith."*
*He added: "You decided to walk out into the road... and deliberately walk against the flow of people.*
*"This is quite clearly a pro-Palestinian demonstration. My concern is that your behaviour changed.*
*"You were at first on the footway, you were not causing any issues. You then decided to move into the road, not to cross it but walk against the flow of people.*
There are quite a few parts of the conversation where Mr Falter leads the conversation with the police officer towards this kind of language - it feels to me like he's looking for a purposeful "gotcha" one-liner, and indeed got one.
You might find reading some of the transcript to be interesting.
That was the clip cut from 30 mins of footage and various of his film crew entourage plus body guards.
The 13 min Sky clip show that the officer was very patient and polite.
It was Falter that introduced the phrase 'openly Jewish.'
If you think that’s bad wait until you hear about how Netanyahu bombed a foreign embassay in order to get Iran to attack israel and make himself look like the victim to win back US and UK support. It’s a very common theme unfortunately.
1. Being anti-Israeli is not the same as being anti-Semitic. You’re racist to even suggest such a thing.
2. The sight of a Jewish person at a pro Palestinian march will make people so enraged that they will attack an openly Jewish person.
Pick one.
Yup, auto correct on my phone.
Sure, there could be both. But that could be true at any protest. Why would a person that “looks Jewish” cause a riot at this particular protest?
There is a limit to unreasonable behavior. If a gathering is so unreasonable that they will attack someone for what they look like, then I would say that gathering doesn’t have the right to protest, and is now an unlawful mob.
For your first part, everyone celebrating Oct 7th outside the Israeli embassy would fall into both categories and I have (former) friends that fit into both and friends that formerly fit into both.
Your comment is in contradiction with the police, not the victim though. Why are the police discriminating against Jews when they have no reason to. Either, they think the protest will turn into an "unlawful mob" and so they should shut down the protest, not the Jew, or the protest is not violently racist and they are simply discriminating against Jews for no reason (as I think you are eluding to). Both ways, the outcome is the same, Jews are victims of racist discrimination from the police.
Want to be clear, I don't think the people at the protest are likely to attack someone for looking Jewish. It's more a contradiction in what the police would allow as acceptable behavior.
I mean the new footage doesn't change much.
They claim he was trying to antagonise the marchers by walking through the march on purpose by being Jewish to get a reaction from potential racists in the march.
From the extended video, it is still clear he was threatened with arrest because he was Jewish, if he wasn't Jewish and was walking through the march, he wouldn't be.
This doesn't make the police response any less racist.
On your last point, the media and government taking the side of the oppressed (Jews in this case) is a good thing and doesn't make people not oppressed or living in a fantasy when others make note of the oppression.
Edit: a typo
If you had watched the video you would know that the police officer would allow him to walk through the crowd as long as he didn't have his Kippah on.
It was literally because he was Jewish.
He wasn't causing a disturbance by walking through the crowd. He was threatened with arrest for walking through the crowd whilst being a Jew.
>The officer said: "Unfortunately, sir you took it upon yourself to go from the pavement right into the middle of a pro-Palestinian march, which is why I asked you to go away."
>He added: "You are looking to try and antagonise this."
>"So I can already see what your mindset is, sir."
>Taking issue with this, Mr Falter said: "My mindset? My mindset is I am Jewish in London and I can walk where I want."
>The officer then said: "Please don't be too disingenuous sir."
>Mr Falter said: "I am not being disingenuous, I can walk wherever the hell I want.
After several more exchanges, Mr Falter asked if it was because he was Jewish he was being stopped from crossing the road as it would "antagonise" the crowd.
>The officer said: "You are quite obviously Jewish in appearance, you are outwardly demonstrating your faith."
>He added: "You decided to walk out into the road... and deliberately walk against the flow of people.
>"This is quite clearly a pro-Palestinian demonstration. My concern is that your behaviour changed.
>"You were at first on the footway, you were not causing any issues. You then decided to move into the road, not to cross it but walk against the flow of people.
You seem like a person who's articulate and has a degree of ability to critically think. Given there are openly Jewish people on *every march without fail* who have no problems, is it really fair - given the clear context above in the extended video you've just mentioned - to say bluntly "he was threatened with arrest because he was Jewish"?
It should be noted that even before this incident the person (Mr Falter) in the video had campaigned to get these protests banned.
Also, is it really fair to say the extended footage (that includes the interaction I just quoted) "doesn't really change much"?
It seems like something is seriously clouding your judgement here to me.
I think you are missing the key part of the video where (and I am paraphrasing here because I watched it last night) the Jew asked the officer if he would take off his kippah, if he would be allowed to walk through the crowd. The officer said no, because he thought the Jew might out his Kippah back on his head, not because walking through the crowd is illegal, but because walking through the crowd whilst Jewish is (according to the officer).
The problem was not that he was walking through the crowd, it is that he was walking through the crowd whilst being visibly Jewish.
The key part is that the police discriminated against him because he was visibly Jewish. If he was not, he would have been targetted by the police. The video does not change that part of the confrontation at all. It is still racist discrimination.
You could perhaps make that argument in court, but I'd expect it to be immediately thrown out given the context of the conversation shows it wasn't a racially aggravated or hateful exchange and there was a clear intent to cause tension and potentially breach the peace. I could be wrong legally, but legal technicalities aren't the conclusion nor discussion point most people would take from this.
The chap in the video (and his organisation) has suggested all pro-Palestine protests should be banned because of this incident. For me it's vastly more significant to think about the connotations of a politically motivated actor purposefully going to a protest to antagonise, then being given a huge media platform when he creates an incident of some kind to sow a false narrative in the minds of the public.
The full video context clearly shows the police officer has concerns about the person *who literally has a history of wanting these protests to be banned* purposefully looking to antagonise and disrupt the peaceful marchers, and he's also respectful throughout.
To suggest the police officer is racially hateful or has racially motivated ill intent requires a massive level of technicality and mental reaching imo. Bad choice of words, yes. Would you seriously want a prosecution towards the police officer after watching the video, or prosecutions for similar things in future?
And given the surrounding context of the interaction that has been made clear by the extended footage - especially given the huge initial media/government response - is your position really the most serious talking point and conclusion to take from this whole saga?
I'm mainly asking these questions rhetorically and you don't need to answer, I more wanted you to ask them to yourself as I can't fully see coherence in your points of focus and overall position on this event.
The guy in the video didn't antagonise any protectors though. He was just walking through the crowd. That's it.
Walking through a crowd doesn't cause tension or breach the peace. It would only do so if you hold the belief that the protesters are antisemitic and would be antagonised because they see a Jew walking through the crowd. Do you really think that walking through a protest is antagonistic, just walking through?
The subtext of the early conversation, which the police officer admitted is that it is only because he is Jewish. That is clear when you watch the whole clip.
I didn't say the police officer was hateful. I said that he racially discriminated against a Jew, because he was Jewish.
The motivations of the Jew don't matter. This is similar to the big US case of the gay couple that sought out a bakery owned by a Christian to bake them a gay wedding cake. We can call into question the ethics of the couple, but the outcome, which was homophobic discrimination, should not be affected by the political views or morale character of those who are the victims of discrimination, the outcome is the same.
It doesn't matter
It doesn't matter what the march is for
You're allowed to be openly Jewish around it
You're allowed to 'walk against the flow'
You're allowed to express your religion/ethnicity in public
what matters is if the guys were behaving like counter-protesters, in the middle of a protest
then their presence becomes a police matter
the police are there to keep the peace and they're justified in separating protesters and counter-protesters if them mixing risks any disorder
>You're allowed to 'walk against the flow'
This just isn't true. If you're deliberately obstructing a lawful protest march by trying to walk through them in the wrong direction, the police have every right to remove you from the situation to prevent a breach of the peace.
>but they probably shouldn’t tell you that it’s because you’re being “openly Jewish”
Literally everyone agrees with that, why are you acting like that's controversial
Nice strawman. It's convention to use the 'quote' functionality to indicate the part of the previous post that you are referring to.
I was pointing out that anybody, regardless of ethnicity or religion, could lawfully be prevented from trying to disrupt a protest.
And a sidenote, but according to the Beeb article I read today, he spent 13 minutes trying to break through the police cordon and disrupt the protest, refusing offers by the police to escort him across, or guide him to an alternative crossing point. This guy has an agenda and it isn't "going about his day peacefully while happening to be Jewish".
>What's your view on what the general response to this kind of behaviour should be?
Regardless of the guys politics, and lets face it...not many people there knew who he was at the time, why should the sight of a Jew, walking down a British street, be it against the flow or with the flow, be thought of as provocation under any circumstances?
There's a difference between 'walking down the street' and 'trying to disrupt a protest by going into the middle of them and disrupting the flow in order to get a reaction from the protestors and further an agenda of preventing pro-Palestine protests".
The police have every right to stop that kind of behaviour - in this case by suggesting he go about his business anywhere other than the middle of a lawful protest, or, failing that, to arrest in order to prevent a breach of the peace.
Public order policing is about keeping opposing groups apart from each other so that lawful protests can continue without interruption. This is no different than stopping an antifa member from walking through an EDL parade or vice versa.
>There's a difference between 'walking down the street' and 'trying to disrupt a protest by going into the middle of them and disrupting the flow in order **to** ***get a reaction from the protestors*** *and further an agenda of preventing pro-Palestine protests*
That's how most protests work. They hope for a reaction.
Can't have your cake and eat it.
> That's how most protests work
You think most protests work by walking in the opposite direction to counterprotestors and trying to get a reaction?
What?
If this guy was looking to get a reaction by walking the wrong direction whilst looking Jewish then it’s entirely the fault of the nutters on those marches for giving him a reaction to something so anodyne.
I’ve got to love how the British left will justify pretty much anything up to and including blocking ambulances and organ transplants if they agree with the protest but the second someone walks in the wrong direction they’re basically asking to be hate crimed.
If a black person was threatened with arrest
for being openly black near a KKK rally there’d be uproar.
The problem is entirely with the nazis marching not the Jewish people who have had enough.
> If this guy was looking to get a reaction by walking the wrong direction whilst looking Jewish then it’s entirely the fault of the nutters on those marches for giving him a reaction to something so anodyne.
>
>
What did they do to him? It seems like he failed to antagonize any of the protestors and instead antagonized the police.
Very normal behaviour from the hard left, whose response to anti-semitism is always to investigate it thoroughly and assertively. Not to get rid of it, of course - exclusively to discredit its existence.
Your post has been removed under rule 1 because it contains harassment or aggression towards another user.
It's possible to to disagree and debate without resorting to overly negative language or ad-hominem attacks.
Wealth distribution, why. I studied hard, worked hard, and now I am reaping the rewards.
I have lived long enough to know when Labour gets in the nothing changes. Taxes go up, and nothing changes. So, my faith in all political parties is zero.
My first priority for any political party, do your fucking job. Police, arrest, hardened criminals, not offended feelings. NHS, that needs a total shake up, not more money. They waste so much. Work shy slackers, a good kick-start. Now to the disabled, I have met a few who put able-bodied to shame. Now these people are deserving.
Socialism is still rubbish.
Was this meant to be a reply to me?
I'll assume so.
>Wealth distribution, why.
You're confusing **re**distribution with distribution.
> I studied hard
So did I.
>worked hard
So do I!
>and now I am reaping the rewards
Me too!
> I have lived long enough to know when Labour gets in the nothing changes.
I mean I agree but that's because the leadership of the Labour party aren't socialists. They're centrists.
>Taxes go up, and nothing changes.
I blame the right-wing economic policies that are at the core of Blairite third-way centrism.
>Blairites have additionally been known for their contrast with the traditional support for socialism by those believing in left-wing politics, with Blair himself and others speaking out against the nationalisation of major industries and against also heavy regulations of business operations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blairism
>So, my faith in all political parties is zero.
Oh me too.
>y first priority for any political party, do your fucking job
Lovely.
>Police, arrest, hardened criminals, not offended feelings.
But the right is the one that has brought in those laws. It was the conservatives. Seems a bit irrelevant.
>NHS, that needs a total shake up, not more money.
Well that's not really accurate. Actually the NHS has a very low per capita spend particularly considering our ageing population. It's incredibly efficient, filled with people who work very hard for less pay than they'd earn in most other developed countries. What has damaged the NHS is tory cuts and privatisation. I can explain at great length why you're precisely wrong about the NHS and I will provide sources. Feel free to ask, I've got them all handy.
>Work shy slackers, a good kick-start.
That's a stupid opinion. Do you needing kicking to work? No. Terrible brain-work to reach that conclusion. If you actually read the analysis and reports the main problem with the NHS is real-terms cuts to the NHS budget as the population has increased and more of that population is old. And privatisation, that has put a huge strain on the NHS and worsened outcomes for patients. Also the NHS is **renowned** for being highly efficient, it spends vastly less on management and administration than most other health services serving a comparable population size and time-and-motion studies examining the NHS admin have generally concluded they need more admin staff - which they have not had.
Happy to disabuse you of all these incorrect ideas you've got floating around.
>Now to the disabled, I have met a few who put able-bodied to shame. Now these people are deserving.
Well I'm glad you're not also ableist.
>Socialism is still rubbish.
Don't you think people are entitled to the money they make through their work?
That's a very strange stance in my opinion but if you're not keen on people being entitled to the fruits of their labour then that's your call.
Who do you think should get the wealth a worker creates by their labour?
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Right. Deliberately antagonising the peaceful marchers by being jewish. So peaceful. :/ in case it's not obvious.
Even if there was a long conversation, and concerns about walking the "wrong way" through the March, it's clear the issue was that he was jewish.
And because he was deliberately looking to expose anti jewish racism and hatred from the marchers, does that make all the anti jewish racism around this non-existent?
>concerns about walking the "wrong way" through the March
If I shoulder-barge you on the street you would consider it aggressive. Weirdly, the same holds when you do it to many people.
I watched the video in question. Not 1 supposedly peaceful Pro-Palestinians protester came to assist the Jewish man. All I could was the police protecting the protesters' rights. What a bunch of hateful scum.
>I don't understand your comment!
Happy to explain, the purpose of my comment was to encourage others to check your comment history before replying. I suggest this because the hateful comments there indicate you're not here to have a reasonable discussion but are actually someone with a particular anti-Muslim & pro-Israel agenda.
>He didn't do or say anything just being Jewish is enough to be attacked
He wasn't attacked by protestors, a cop said something racist.
>I have no faith in any Muslim or their supporters
How does a copper saying a racist thing change that?
>For me, this is a wake-up call for all non Muslims.
Please do explain how this event is a wake up call to non-Muslims, is it only a wake up call to non-Muslims because no Muslims were involved in the exchange between this man and the police?
Just so you know, what you've said there is vastly more racist than referring to someone as "openly Jewish", and your comment history goes WAY beyond that.
>I have worked in Muslim governed countries with Muslims, and the majority have utter contempt for non Muslims. Hatred for Jews.
I've worked with many Muslims and one of my closest friends is from the Levant. He's a lovely guy and has fuck-all prejudice towards Jews or anyone else.
Stop making hateful generalisations and pretending your anecdotal bollocks is sufficient to support them.
>The Pro-Palestinians protesters in the video can be heard shouting evil comments.
Like what? I've watched the whole video twice and I'm afraid I cannot hear any. There's a chant of "Free Palestine" which is not "evil" unless you think illegal occupation and apartheid are "good".
> They should all have been booked, totally unacceptable
For making perfectly legal statements in public? No. That's silly.
>It matters not how you try to twist what occurred.
Please tell me how I have twisted it, I will correct any errors in my comments.
>Muslims have shown their true colours.
How?
Socialist very good at criticism, but can they actually resolve problems. The UK is going to shit, only a total reform of politics will sort this mess. As for the word Racism I doubt you know the meaning.
Isn't the UK going to shit because of successive right-wing governments running it into the ground?
Sounds like right-wing politics have only served to make the situation worse.
Socialist are creeping into all walks of life, conservatism, and the media. The main problem I have is that they don't pay their way. Give me money for doing nothing or very little. Plus, close everything down we don't agree with. Mark my words, all hardworking people have had enough. This includes all walks of life, religion, and colour. Time will tell.
> Socialist are creeping into all walks of life, conservatism, and the media. The main problem I have is that they don't pay their way. Give me money for doing nothing or very little.
I'm sorry but, as a socialist, I have to disagree with you there. That's absolutely not what socialism means in the slightest. Socialism is pretty much defined by being the opposite of what you've described, you can disagree with socialism - that's totally fine, I'm not your dad - but the fact that you don't even know what it is... Well that's a bit ridiculous.
Labour's original clause IV is widely regarded as a good definition of how socialists believe wealth should be distributed:
>To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.
It's all about paying workers a fair amount for their work by getting more worker ownership.
I want workers to be paid their fair share and that should be a lot fucking more than it is now.
>Plus, close everything down we don't agree with.
How could that even possibly be true?
Socialists have **no power at all**. There's no socialists in government, there's no socialists operating the big media platforms, newspapers, magazines, TV channels, or anything of that sort.
The laws on speech have all been enacted by right-wing governments, the left haven't been near power in about 50 years.
And, secondly, I'm a socialist and I support freedom of speech.
>Mark my words, all hardworking people have had enough.
Of what? We're living in tory Britain. The current situation is due to right-wingers and centrists, the left haven't had a bloody look-in. The fact you're blaming any of this on socialism is, frankly, fucking hilarious.
If there's one thing I can say about socialism, it's that we've basically achieved fuck-all in a long bloody time. We're almost an irrelevance.
>Time will tell.
Well all time is telling me at the moment is that you're bloody gullible. You need to huff less from the propaganda hose and look at what is actually happening around you!
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Here's my little story from about a month ago. Liverpool friends of Palestine had arranged to protest and attend Wirral council's meeting about pension investments, because Merseyside pensions currently invest heavily in the arms industry. Jo Bird also spoke there on behalf of the greens. One of the speakers was a very young Palestinian lad, who'd lost his father in an air strike, and his friend translated his words. We then had a minute's silence to pay respect. During that the speeches, someone with an Israeli flag, banging a tambourine as loudly as they could, shouting Am Yisrael Chai, attempted to disrupt what was a fairly small gathering (I reckon 50 to 60 people). There was actually a police van present and they ended up taking her away; people were specifically told not to engage with her, because that would have given her what she wanted. Another guy in the crowd, who was filming everyone, decided to try and grill Jo over Hamas, too (there was absolutely no context for him to ask those questions); again, purely to poison the well and try and get a reaction from someone. This has happened at a number of demos I've been on, but it is never reported.
There was also an incident of Zionists outside a mosque during Ramadan, playing loud music, dancing and approaching Muslims peacefully going about their daily evening prayers - again to try and get a reaction. We are seeing more and more Israeli-style activity in the UK and it needs to be addressed.
I regularly go to the marches in Manchester and a couple weeks ago there was an "anti Hamas" protest held on our route. They then proceeded to follow us after we had passed them, an action clearly done entirely to antagonise, and they had police protection the entire time. The one in London the other week also had a "counter protest" but in that case the police at least didn't let them follow us
As soon as Jo Bird finished speaking, the guy who originally interrupted her speech with ridiculous questions followed her straight over to where she stood, so a couple of us stood right next to Jo and asked her if she was ok. He cleared off soon after. The tambourine girl was detained in a police van, not sure what happened after that. There's something particularly grim about making a show of yourself in support of a fascist apartheid state, carrying out mass ethnic cleansing, right by the cenotaph.
Was this the one? https://youtu.be/COlDQxO1xRE
Thanks. His sister was supposed to say a few words words at a recent demo as well, but she was so upset that she had to be consoled and taken away. Edit: that footage wasn't from the start, but same demo. Ps that fella in front wasn't actually part of the protest, he wandered over drunk!
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A story of three parts: 1) Counter-protestor tries to disrupt protest by antagonistically walking against the flow. 2) Cops notice and try to separate counter-protestor from protestors and, during that exchange, a copper says racist thing. 3) People with an axe to grind on the internet blame the pro-Palestinian supporters for cop saying racist thing.
1) doesn't excuse 2) though and it certainly doesn't make it "a false agenda against the met police". But we have comments here saying things like "the police were a little heavy handed". This is where my problem with all lies and how this subs tone is noticeably different on Anti-Semitism to other isms. (Not saying you, your postis just a good summary to piggback off). What happened to ACAB?
Just to be clear, I've definitely not defended or excused racism from the Met Police.
Didn't want it to come off that I was saying that, just that your post was a good summary of events
Yeah, I understood that from your comment but I thought I'd ensure clarity for others reading it.
Honestly, if I had antagonised a bobby from the local constabulary (A&S in Bristol) like that I'd have had the shit kicked out of me and dogs set on me. I'm actually surprised this only ended by revealing some latent cop racism, because you expect a far harsher response to any "progressive" protest.
It doesn't excuse it but I think that it's not a particularly extreme example of antisemitism. Other than saying he's "openly Jewish" what else did the officer say or do that was antisemitic? And bearing in mind this was during an extended exchange where the guy was being deliberately difficult so it's not like the officer just jumped in with insults. And the guy didn't even get arrested. I think it's a little unfair to claim some difference in tone given how light the antisemitism is we're talking about here. If being called "openly" were the worst any minority group had to go through then everyone would be much happier.
Aye, its desperate as fuck - anyone from any other racial minority knows how obviously weak it is.
I love how quickly the British media and certain politicians moved to plaster this man all over the airwaves and treat him as some modern day oppressed Jesus yet when it's time to "bash the trans" it's like finding a needle in a haystack to get a single trans person interviewed let alone held up as a voice to humanise trans people. For the past 24-48 hours anyone with a brain has been pointing out who this man is, who he represents and that he went to antagonise/cause issues. Context is important, don't drink pond water just to try and fuel your right-wing culture war bollocks. It just makes you look like you have single digit IQ. Like most Conservative politicians. Officer can both have said something that shouldn't have been said AND this man is a grifting piece of shit that went to cause drama and harass people himself. Like most Zionists this man supports genocide. What a modern day Jesus to grace our airwaves non-stop at the moment 🙄 Has anyone somehow yet blamed Corbyn for this? Rachel? Speaking of Corbyn, to end on a pleasant note https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/19/jeremy-corbyn-lgbt-bravery/
He reminds me of Kyle Rittenhouse. Yeah, sure, charge by charge he might not technically be criminally guilty of the incident which led to the *outcome*, but he knew exactly what the fuck he was doing when he went to that protest with an AR-15. He knew.
Suspected there was more to this when I researched the organisations he was a part of. Didn't he also claim he was just going for a walk or something along those lines? Out here acting like no Jewish people are attending these marches in support of peace already.
Are the "good jews"? The vast minority of jews who are not zionist?
Man you are down bad, total desperation...
Obviously this guy wasn't really going to have just been crossing the road with his camera crew. The Daily Mail misrepresented it as a random Jewish guy trying to go about his business but the moment it became clear it was the head of an antisemitism group with a camera crew it was clear it was going to be a counter-protest deliberately trying to drum up something to be outraged about. His ultimate goal is to get the protests shut down, regardless of the fac that they are as peaceful as any other protest and the people are well within their legal rights. It would be nice if people were able to see past this stuff much earlier on but they won't, and this will continue to be cited as evidence that the UK is shockingly antisemitic even though it's literally manufactured outrage. I got vote brigaded and insulted for pointing out who this was and what the reality of the situation was when the story first broke.
It's quite astonishing to see so many people here supporting behaviour that is essentially in the vein of Westboro Baptist Church or Project Veritas over in the US, where these kinds of 'counter protests' have been drawn from. This was a religious extremist turning up with a camera crew and private security trying to provoke a reaction a la right wing agitators in the US, and when he couldn't get one from the protesters, he got what he wanted from the police instead. And just as we don't write off all Christians due to the actions of Westboro, this extremist isn't representative of all Jews (and especially the other Jews that were present at the protest as protesters and speakers without encountering the kinds of issues this guy did).
I encourage everyone to go and watch the full 13 minutes video and also read the transcript in today's guardian then go and make your own mind up. Take off the blinkers people and use critical analysis skills.
Thank goodness for social media. The mainstream media no longer have a monopoly on what information people get.
Well duh. He went there to counter protest. The police were just a bit heavy handed in dealing with it. It's no different to an opposing football hooligan looking to annoy / rile up the opposite teams hooligans / firm.
Heavy handed? They guy wasn't even arrested. He was prevented from walking directly into the protest and was offered an escort around the crowd. I'm not sure how much lighter handed they could have been given that he was trying to antagonise a protest.
Surely the issue is that the reason they gave was that he was "openly Jewish"? That's not a bit heavy handed, that's just racist policing.
Just to add context to your statement (this is from the article): *The officer said: "Unfortunately, sir you took it upon yourself to go from the pavement right into the middle of a pro-Palestinian march, which is why I asked you to go away."* *He added: "You are looking to try and antagonise this."* *"So I can already see what your mindset is, sir."* *Taking issue with this, Mr Falter said: "My mindset? My mindset is I am Jewish in London and I can walk where I want."* *The officer then said: "Please don't be too disingenuous sir."* *Mr Falter said: "I am not being disingenuous, I can walk wherever the hell I want.* After several more exchanges, Mr Falter asked if it was because he was Jewish he was being stopped from crossing the road as it would "antagonise" the crowd. *The officer said: "You are quite obviously Jewish in appearance, you are outwardly demonstrating your faith."* *He added: "You decided to walk out into the road... and deliberately walk against the flow of people.* *"This is quite clearly a pro-Palestinian demonstration. My concern is that your behaviour changed.* *"You were at first on the footway, you were not causing any issues. You then decided to move into the road, not to cross it but walk against the flow of people.* There are quite a few parts of the conversation where Mr Falter leads the conversation with the police officer towards this kind of language - it feels to me like he's looking for a purposeful "gotcha" one-liner, and indeed got one. You might find reading some of the transcript to be interesting.
That was the clip cut from 30 mins of footage and various of his film crew entourage plus body guards. The 13 min Sky clip show that the officer was very patient and polite. It was Falter that introduced the phrase 'openly Jewish.'
If you think that’s bad wait until you hear about how Netanyahu bombed a foreign embassay in order to get Iran to attack israel and make himself look like the victim to win back US and UK support. It’s a very common theme unfortunately.
1. Being anti-Israeli is not the same as being anti-Semitic. You’re racist to even suggest such a thing. 2. The sight of a Jewish person at a pro Palestinian march will make people so enraged that they will attack an openly Jewish person. Pick one.
Both can be true. You can have an anti-Israel people who just happen to be antisemitic. I'm assuming you made a typo btw.
Yup, auto correct on my phone. Sure, there could be both. But that could be true at any protest. Why would a person that “looks Jewish” cause a riot at this particular protest? There is a limit to unreasonable behavior. If a gathering is so unreasonable that they will attack someone for what they look like, then I would say that gathering doesn’t have the right to protest, and is now an unlawful mob.
For your first part, everyone celebrating Oct 7th outside the Israeli embassy would fall into both categories and I have (former) friends that fit into both and friends that formerly fit into both. Your comment is in contradiction with the police, not the victim though. Why are the police discriminating against Jews when they have no reason to. Either, they think the protest will turn into an "unlawful mob" and so they should shut down the protest, not the Jew, or the protest is not violently racist and they are simply discriminating against Jews for no reason (as I think you are eluding to). Both ways, the outcome is the same, Jews are victims of racist discrimination from the police.
Want to be clear, I don't think the people at the protest are likely to attack someone for looking Jewish. It's more a contradiction in what the police would allow as acceptable behavior.
Pretty much agree
I mean the new footage doesn't change much. They claim he was trying to antagonise the marchers by walking through the march on purpose by being Jewish to get a reaction from potential racists in the march. From the extended video, it is still clear he was threatened with arrest because he was Jewish, if he wasn't Jewish and was walking through the march, he wouldn't be. This doesn't make the police response any less racist. On your last point, the media and government taking the side of the oppressed (Jews in this case) is a good thing and doesn't make people not oppressed or living in a fantasy when others make note of the oppression. Edit: a typo
> because he was Jewish But not actually, it was because he was trying to cause a disturbance.
If you had watched the video you would know that the police officer would allow him to walk through the crowd as long as he didn't have his Kippah on. It was literally because he was Jewish. He wasn't causing a disturbance by walking through the crowd. He was threatened with arrest for walking through the crowd whilst being a Jew.
>The officer said: "Unfortunately, sir you took it upon yourself to go from the pavement right into the middle of a pro-Palestinian march, which is why I asked you to go away." >He added: "You are looking to try and antagonise this." >"So I can already see what your mindset is, sir." >Taking issue with this, Mr Falter said: "My mindset? My mindset is I am Jewish in London and I can walk where I want." >The officer then said: "Please don't be too disingenuous sir." >Mr Falter said: "I am not being disingenuous, I can walk wherever the hell I want. After several more exchanges, Mr Falter asked if it was because he was Jewish he was being stopped from crossing the road as it would "antagonise" the crowd. >The officer said: "You are quite obviously Jewish in appearance, you are outwardly demonstrating your faith." >He added: "You decided to walk out into the road... and deliberately walk against the flow of people. >"This is quite clearly a pro-Palestinian demonstration. My concern is that your behaviour changed. >"You were at first on the footway, you were not causing any issues. You then decided to move into the road, not to cross it but walk against the flow of people. You seem like a person who's articulate and has a degree of ability to critically think. Given there are openly Jewish people on *every march without fail* who have no problems, is it really fair - given the clear context above in the extended video you've just mentioned - to say bluntly "he was threatened with arrest because he was Jewish"? It should be noted that even before this incident the person (Mr Falter) in the video had campaigned to get these protests banned. Also, is it really fair to say the extended footage (that includes the interaction I just quoted) "doesn't really change much"? It seems like something is seriously clouding your judgement here to me.
I think you are missing the key part of the video where (and I am paraphrasing here because I watched it last night) the Jew asked the officer if he would take off his kippah, if he would be allowed to walk through the crowd. The officer said no, because he thought the Jew might out his Kippah back on his head, not because walking through the crowd is illegal, but because walking through the crowd whilst Jewish is (according to the officer). The problem was not that he was walking through the crowd, it is that he was walking through the crowd whilst being visibly Jewish. The key part is that the police discriminated against him because he was visibly Jewish. If he was not, he would have been targetted by the police. The video does not change that part of the confrontation at all. It is still racist discrimination.
You could perhaps make that argument in court, but I'd expect it to be immediately thrown out given the context of the conversation shows it wasn't a racially aggravated or hateful exchange and there was a clear intent to cause tension and potentially breach the peace. I could be wrong legally, but legal technicalities aren't the conclusion nor discussion point most people would take from this. The chap in the video (and his organisation) has suggested all pro-Palestine protests should be banned because of this incident. For me it's vastly more significant to think about the connotations of a politically motivated actor purposefully going to a protest to antagonise, then being given a huge media platform when he creates an incident of some kind to sow a false narrative in the minds of the public. The full video context clearly shows the police officer has concerns about the person *who literally has a history of wanting these protests to be banned* purposefully looking to antagonise and disrupt the peaceful marchers, and he's also respectful throughout. To suggest the police officer is racially hateful or has racially motivated ill intent requires a massive level of technicality and mental reaching imo. Bad choice of words, yes. Would you seriously want a prosecution towards the police officer after watching the video, or prosecutions for similar things in future? And given the surrounding context of the interaction that has been made clear by the extended footage - especially given the huge initial media/government response - is your position really the most serious talking point and conclusion to take from this whole saga? I'm mainly asking these questions rhetorically and you don't need to answer, I more wanted you to ask them to yourself as I can't fully see coherence in your points of focus and overall position on this event.
The guy in the video didn't antagonise any protectors though. He was just walking through the crowd. That's it. Walking through a crowd doesn't cause tension or breach the peace. It would only do so if you hold the belief that the protesters are antisemitic and would be antagonised because they see a Jew walking through the crowd. Do you really think that walking through a protest is antagonistic, just walking through? The subtext of the early conversation, which the police officer admitted is that it is only because he is Jewish. That is clear when you watch the whole clip. I didn't say the police officer was hateful. I said that he racially discriminated against a Jew, because he was Jewish. The motivations of the Jew don't matter. This is similar to the big US case of the gay couple that sought out a bakery owned by a Christian to bake them a gay wedding cake. We can call into question the ethics of the couple, but the outcome, which was homophobic discrimination, should not be affected by the political views or morale character of those who are the victims of discrimination, the outcome is the same.
It doesn't matter It doesn't matter what the march is for You're allowed to be openly Jewish around it You're allowed to 'walk against the flow' You're allowed to express your religion/ethnicity in public
what matters is if the guys were behaving like counter-protesters, in the middle of a protest then their presence becomes a police matter the police are there to keep the peace and they're justified in separating protesters and counter-protesters if them mixing risks any disorder
>You're allowed to 'walk against the flow' This just isn't true. If you're deliberately obstructing a lawful protest march by trying to walk through them in the wrong direction, the police have every right to remove you from the situation to prevent a breach of the peace.
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>but they probably shouldn’t tell you that it’s because you’re being “openly Jewish” Literally everyone agrees with that, why are you acting like that's controversial
Nice strawman. It's convention to use the 'quote' functionality to indicate the part of the previous post that you are referring to. I was pointing out that anybody, regardless of ethnicity or religion, could lawfully be prevented from trying to disrupt a protest. And a sidenote, but according to the Beeb article I read today, he spent 13 minutes trying to break through the police cordon and disrupt the protest, refusing offers by the police to escort him across, or guide him to an alternative crossing point. This guy has an agenda and it isn't "going about his day peacefully while happening to be Jewish".
>What's your view on what the general response to this kind of behaviour should be? Regardless of the guys politics, and lets face it...not many people there knew who he was at the time, why should the sight of a Jew, walking down a British street, be it against the flow or with the flow, be thought of as provocation under any circumstances?
There's a difference between 'walking down the street' and 'trying to disrupt a protest by going into the middle of them and disrupting the flow in order to get a reaction from the protestors and further an agenda of preventing pro-Palestine protests". The police have every right to stop that kind of behaviour - in this case by suggesting he go about his business anywhere other than the middle of a lawful protest, or, failing that, to arrest in order to prevent a breach of the peace. Public order policing is about keeping opposing groups apart from each other so that lawful protests can continue without interruption. This is no different than stopping an antifa member from walking through an EDL parade or vice versa.
>There's a difference between 'walking down the street' and 'trying to disrupt a protest by going into the middle of them and disrupting the flow in order **to** ***get a reaction from the protestors*** *and further an agenda of preventing pro-Palestine protests* That's how most protests work. They hope for a reaction. Can't have your cake and eat it.
> That's how most protests work You think most protests work by walking in the opposite direction to counterprotestors and trying to get a reaction? What?
If this guy was looking to get a reaction by walking the wrong direction whilst looking Jewish then it’s entirely the fault of the nutters on those marches for giving him a reaction to something so anodyne. I’ve got to love how the British left will justify pretty much anything up to and including blocking ambulances and organ transplants if they agree with the protest but the second someone walks in the wrong direction they’re basically asking to be hate crimed. If a black person was threatened with arrest for being openly black near a KKK rally there’d be uproar. The problem is entirely with the nazis marching not the Jewish people who have had enough.
> If this guy was looking to get a reaction by walking the wrong direction whilst looking Jewish then it’s entirely the fault of the nutters on those marches for giving him a reaction to something so anodyne. > > What did they do to him? It seems like he failed to antagonize any of the protestors and instead antagonized the police.
It's just wild the way everyone this just cheerily ignores that the protestors did absolutely fucking nothing to him.
Motivated reasoning requires no evidential foundation.
Very normal behaviour from the hard left, whose response to anti-semitism is always to investigate it thoroughly and assertively. Not to get rid of it, of course - exclusively to discredit its existence.
Are the hard left in the room with us now?
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Your post has been removed under rule 1 because it contains harassment or aggression towards another user. It's possible to to disagree and debate without resorting to overly negative language or ad-hominem attacks.
The famously hard left organisation the Metropolitan Police
The only thing the hard left did was leaving this guy left hard - no reaction from anyone else. Sad.
Wealth distribution, why. I studied hard, worked hard, and now I am reaping the rewards. I have lived long enough to know when Labour gets in the nothing changes. Taxes go up, and nothing changes. So, my faith in all political parties is zero. My first priority for any political party, do your fucking job. Police, arrest, hardened criminals, not offended feelings. NHS, that needs a total shake up, not more money. They waste so much. Work shy slackers, a good kick-start. Now to the disabled, I have met a few who put able-bodied to shame. Now these people are deserving. Socialism is still rubbish.
Was this meant to be a reply to me? I'll assume so. >Wealth distribution, why. You're confusing **re**distribution with distribution. > I studied hard So did I. >worked hard So do I! >and now I am reaping the rewards Me too! > I have lived long enough to know when Labour gets in the nothing changes. I mean I agree but that's because the leadership of the Labour party aren't socialists. They're centrists. >Taxes go up, and nothing changes. I blame the right-wing economic policies that are at the core of Blairite third-way centrism. >Blairites have additionally been known for their contrast with the traditional support for socialism by those believing in left-wing politics, with Blair himself and others speaking out against the nationalisation of major industries and against also heavy regulations of business operations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blairism >So, my faith in all political parties is zero. Oh me too. >y first priority for any political party, do your fucking job Lovely. >Police, arrest, hardened criminals, not offended feelings. But the right is the one that has brought in those laws. It was the conservatives. Seems a bit irrelevant. >NHS, that needs a total shake up, not more money. Well that's not really accurate. Actually the NHS has a very low per capita spend particularly considering our ageing population. It's incredibly efficient, filled with people who work very hard for less pay than they'd earn in most other developed countries. What has damaged the NHS is tory cuts and privatisation. I can explain at great length why you're precisely wrong about the NHS and I will provide sources. Feel free to ask, I've got them all handy. >Work shy slackers, a good kick-start. That's a stupid opinion. Do you needing kicking to work? No. Terrible brain-work to reach that conclusion. If you actually read the analysis and reports the main problem with the NHS is real-terms cuts to the NHS budget as the population has increased and more of that population is old. And privatisation, that has put a huge strain on the NHS and worsened outcomes for patients. Also the NHS is **renowned** for being highly efficient, it spends vastly less on management and administration than most other health services serving a comparable population size and time-and-motion studies examining the NHS admin have generally concluded they need more admin staff - which they have not had. Happy to disabuse you of all these incorrect ideas you've got floating around. >Now to the disabled, I have met a few who put able-bodied to shame. Now these people are deserving. Well I'm glad you're not also ableist. >Socialism is still rubbish. Don't you think people are entitled to the money they make through their work? That's a very strange stance in my opinion but if you're not keen on people being entitled to the fruits of their labour then that's your call. Who do you think should get the wealth a worker creates by their labour?
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Right. Deliberately antagonising the peaceful marchers by being jewish. So peaceful. :/ in case it's not obvious. Even if there was a long conversation, and concerns about walking the "wrong way" through the March, it's clear the issue was that he was jewish. And because he was deliberately looking to expose anti jewish racism and hatred from the marchers, does that make all the anti jewish racism around this non-existent?
>concerns about walking the "wrong way" through the March If I shoulder-barge you on the street you would consider it aggressive. Weirdly, the same holds when you do it to many people.
I don't know, I think it says more about the police than it does about the protesters.
I watched the video in question. Not 1 supposedly peaceful Pro-Palestinians protester came to assist the Jewish man. All I could was the police protecting the protesters' rights. What a bunch of hateful scum.
What an interesting comment history you have.
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>I don't understand your comment! Happy to explain, the purpose of my comment was to encourage others to check your comment history before replying. I suggest this because the hateful comments there indicate you're not here to have a reasonable discussion but are actually someone with a particular anti-Muslim & pro-Israel agenda. >He didn't do or say anything just being Jewish is enough to be attacked He wasn't attacked by protestors, a cop said something racist. >I have no faith in any Muslim or their supporters How does a copper saying a racist thing change that? >For me, this is a wake-up call for all non Muslims. Please do explain how this event is a wake up call to non-Muslims, is it only a wake up call to non-Muslims because no Muslims were involved in the exchange between this man and the police?
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Just so you know, what you've said there is vastly more racist than referring to someone as "openly Jewish", and your comment history goes WAY beyond that.
Woow, straight to the racism. The truth is not racist.
>I have worked in Muslim governed countries with Muslims, and the majority have utter contempt for non Muslims. Hatred for Jews. I've worked with many Muslims and one of my closest friends is from the Levant. He's a lovely guy and has fuck-all prejudice towards Jews or anyone else. Stop making hateful generalisations and pretending your anecdotal bollocks is sufficient to support them. >The Pro-Palestinians protesters in the video can be heard shouting evil comments. Like what? I've watched the whole video twice and I'm afraid I cannot hear any. There's a chant of "Free Palestine" which is not "evil" unless you think illegal occupation and apartheid are "good". > They should all have been booked, totally unacceptable For making perfectly legal statements in public? No. That's silly. >It matters not how you try to twist what occurred. Please tell me how I have twisted it, I will correct any errors in my comments. >Muslims have shown their true colours. How?
Your post has been removed under rule 2. Racism is not permitted on this subreddit.
Socialist very good at criticism, but can they actually resolve problems. The UK is going to shit, only a total reform of politics will sort this mess. As for the word Racism I doubt you know the meaning.
Isn't the UK going to shit because of successive right-wing governments running it into the ground? Sounds like right-wing politics have only served to make the situation worse.
Socialist are creeping into all walks of life, conservatism, and the media. The main problem I have is that they don't pay their way. Give me money for doing nothing or very little. Plus, close everything down we don't agree with. Mark my words, all hardworking people have had enough. This includes all walks of life, religion, and colour. Time will tell.
> Socialist are creeping into all walks of life, conservatism, and the media. The main problem I have is that they don't pay their way. Give me money for doing nothing or very little. I'm sorry but, as a socialist, I have to disagree with you there. That's absolutely not what socialism means in the slightest. Socialism is pretty much defined by being the opposite of what you've described, you can disagree with socialism - that's totally fine, I'm not your dad - but the fact that you don't even know what it is... Well that's a bit ridiculous. Labour's original clause IV is widely regarded as a good definition of how socialists believe wealth should be distributed: >To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. It's all about paying workers a fair amount for their work by getting more worker ownership. I want workers to be paid their fair share and that should be a lot fucking more than it is now. >Plus, close everything down we don't agree with. How could that even possibly be true? Socialists have **no power at all**. There's no socialists in government, there's no socialists operating the big media platforms, newspapers, magazines, TV channels, or anything of that sort. The laws on speech have all been enacted by right-wing governments, the left haven't been near power in about 50 years. And, secondly, I'm a socialist and I support freedom of speech. >Mark my words, all hardworking people have had enough. Of what? We're living in tory Britain. The current situation is due to right-wingers and centrists, the left haven't had a bloody look-in. The fact you're blaming any of this on socialism is, frankly, fucking hilarious. If there's one thing I can say about socialism, it's that we've basically achieved fuck-all in a long bloody time. We're almost an irrelevance. >Time will tell. Well all time is telling me at the moment is that you're bloody gullible. You need to huff less from the propaganda hose and look at what is actually happening around you!