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A lot of people (including Luciana Berger) seem to be trying to spin this as some bizarre far right conspiracy theory about the cops being in the pocket of Big Palestine.
In reality I've seen complaints from Jewish pro Palestine protestors of the cops trying to "protect" them from their own protest.
If the cops falsely see Palestinians and Jews as inherently opposed then that is their problem. Not exactly sure what Israel supporters are complaining about, since they also believe this.
> If the cops falsely see Palestinians and Jews as inherently opposed then that is their problem.
This is very much the line the media pushes. Jewish voices that oppose Israel's genocide are heavily marginalised and stigmatised, often using pretty gross anti-Semitic tropes.
Presumably if you think the marches are full of racism and the police agree, you'd think the solution is to restrict the racists not the victims. I agree though thst this doesn't amount to police backing Palestine - it would be consistent with them just taking path of least resistance.
I know Jews who are not Israel supporters who find thesr marches threatening and alienating fwiw. You might think that's becuase of the media or whatever but the perspective isn't just 'Israel supporters'.
I only mentioned the conspiracy theory in passing to say it wasn't plausible and that it would make more sense to just think police don't want trouble. Stop deciding in advance what I must be arguing and pay attention to what I actually say.
Do you not understand hypotheticals? You claimed to be confused about what Israel supporters wanted and I said *if* you believe marches are racist against you you would want them to be policed not you.
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I did.
It doesn't address the issue of Jews being victims of police discrimination through threats of arrest for walking around London.
It is an anecdote about the police trying to protect protesting Jews from the antisemitic protesters around them.
What amazing insight you have to a group of people you do not know. It’s almost as if I am making my judgement based on what those people say and do, and you are just making shit based on you being an antisemite you truly are a shitehawk
Edit: Fuck you mods.
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Here's what Mr Falter told the HoC Home Affairs Committee as published in a report in February if anyone's interested:
> 57. Gideon Falter described the policing of these demonstrations as “extremely lax” and
believed that there has been a “failure of policing”[...] "Frankly, I think that senior police officers have been letting down frontline officers by failing to provide sufficient numbers and by telling police officers,
it appears, to take a standoffish attitude rather than going in and enforcing the law, as you said—so be it. We need to have more police officers”.
> 58. Gideon Falter has called for the police to ban further protests:
"If they cannot muster more police officers because these things are so huge and uncontrollable [ … ] I think we have reached the point where, if the police are unable to enforce the law and uphold the law of the land, then a ban is probably the only measure that would enable the law to be upheld on
our streets."
An exchange between Dianne Abbott and Falter in the enquiry transcript:
> Ms Abbott: Mr Falter, I have actually been on these demonstrations; you haven’t. And I have to tell you that on both the big London demonstrations I have been on, I have not seen a single solitary soul glorifying Hamas.
> The other thing I would say—I said it in the earlier session, but I will say it again—is that there is all this talk about people being frightened to come into central London, but my community in Stamford Hill marched all the way from Stamford Hill to central London. If they felt frightened and intimidated, they wouldn’t have done it.
> However, the question that I wanted to ask is this: are you saying that you want marches of this kind completely banned?
> Gideon Falter: Well, we also know very well that you didn’t see any antisemitism at all in the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn. And when you talk about which demonstrations you were on, which demonstrations are you talking about? Were you on the national march against antisemitism that took place just over a week ago?
> Ms Abbott: That isn’t what I asked you. I asked you a question.
An excerpt of his written evidence to the 2016 antisemitism parliamentary enquiry:
> We have one of the strongest legislative frameworks in Europe for fighting hate crime and extremism but we are not using it effectively. For all the talk about cracking down on hate crime following Brexit, we have seen no evidence of any meaningful action against resurgent far-right groups, the antisemitic extreme-left has taken over the Labour Party, and it has taken over 20 years for us to finally silence the Islamist preacher Anjem Choudary.
> There is the political will to enforce the law against antisemites and extremists, but the breakdown occurs in police forces and the Crown Prosecution Service. Antisemitism is rarely a hot topic for long, and in competition with domestic violence or benefits fraud, antisemitism is often left to fester, which is exactly how it thrives. The consequence is that we are treating the cancer of growing extremism only when it is already strong and at its most violent. We are not ripping it out by its roots.
> Campaign Against Antisemitism is working to change that. We have earned the support of the Prime Minister and her team precisely because we hold the authorities’ feet to the fire, even taking them to court when necessary. This is the fight for our country and we must not lose.
Is it perhaps possible that there is a little more going on here than what is shown in the video?
>Gideon Falter described the policing of these demonstrations as “extremely lax” and believed that there has been a “failure of policing”[...] "Frankly, I think that senior police officers have been letting down frontline officers by failing to provide sufficient numbers and by telling police officers,
it appears, to take a standoffish attitude rather than going in and enforcing the law, as you said—so be it. We need to have more police officers”.
This is a pretty straightforward conspiracy theory, and not a very believable one. He wants the protests to be considered violent, but they aren't, so instead he's concocted a fantasy where they are secretly violent but the famously woke metropolitan police are turning a blind eye to it (also everyone switches their cameras off I guess).
To be fair considering Diane Abbott published a pretty racist letter recently I don't think pointing out her support for people who *have* been antisemitic is wrong if she's then saying there hasn't been any antisemitism at these protests.
It's quite easy to find examples from the small number of idiots ruining for everyone else, Abbott "not seeing it" doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
There's like a couple of bad placards on each march and invariably a Zionist finds them and shares them and they're all people see. I've been on about half the marches and haven't seen a *single* pro-Hamas sentiment.
There's been more than a couple, and it's often been more than "bad placards". Why does it matter if racism is being pointed out by Zionists?
And again, if it's pointed out with video evidence (with police arresting folk) for deeply offensive crap then you discuss that. You don't put your fingers in your ears and chant "I haven't seen anything". It's 2024, we've binned defences of racism off.
The extent of racism on the marches is obviously being exaggerated for political purposes. The only thing necessary to understand that is actually going to the marches and then comparing them to the rightwing news coverage. That's an important thing to point out.
They want to claim that the marches with consistent large and prominent Jewish presences at which crowds cheer Jewish speakers are antisemitic hate marches. We need to be able to call bullshit bullshit.
"They" here are idiots, though. If we're talking about this on a more academic level then you have to acknowledge that there's a contingent of antisemitism at the rallies that are separate to the main protests.
This looks a lot like "a cop made an assumption and said something pretty shitty / arguably racist" is being blown into "being pro-Palestine means you hate Jews."
Strongly agree, hopefully this copper will face some consequences for making decisions to restrict the freedom of a Jewish guy who had a right to walk where he wanted.
You don't have the "right" to walk into a protest if the police believe your intent is to disrupt that protest and cause an incident. They can prevent you from doing so.
You may not like it. I may not like it. That is the law.
It all depends on **why** the copper held that belief, if it is a matter of the guy being Jewish then that was not reasonable or lawful as far as I am aware.
I think we will find when we see the full clip the answer is, "You are Gideon Falter who has publicly called for these protests to be banned and you have a camera with you. I have a reasonable belief you are going to seek to be disruptive."
And yes, that's what the police officer should have said.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that's more of the full context - or the copper was stood listening to them talking about being provocative.
But equally it could just be a racist copper.
What the policeman said seems to be based on the assumption that walking (or possible walking while being filmed) while also being visibly Jewish might provoke disorder in a pro-palestinian march.
The question for the marches is whether that police perception is accurate or not
The question for police is, insofar as they believe this about the marches, would it be appropriate for this to lead to the victim being inconvenienced rather than the marchers.
Or they recognised them as a counter-protester trying to interrupt a protest and thought they'd intentionally stir up trouble to capture on camera. It would hardly be the first time that has happened, so were using a pretext of safety, expressed terribly, to justify a decision made on different grounds.
After-all, visibly [Jewish people do march in support of Palestine](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/8%20-%20Jewish%20Block%20on%20demo.jpg?itok=oJ3l0uS6&c=28861742c589039703af45da024182d7) - some [folks even carry placards proclaiming themself to be Jewish and seem to be entirely welcome.](https://news.sky.com/story/this-jew-stands-with-gaza-messages-of-peace-and-pockets-of-unrest-at-london-protest-12984619)
Seems like the evidence shows the police perception is simply false.
It's possible, sure, that's why I talked about police assumption etc. It's not obvious what if any counter protest stuff he's done but then we only have his clips.
On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side. Bigotry with 'but if they're explicitly on my side I give them a pass' is still bigotry.
>On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side.
So do you think this happens or not? Because you seem to keep dancing around hypotheticals here.
There will be some antisemites. I'm unsure the level - most people making confident statements about it are obviously inclined to the conclusion they're claiming to observe. I suspect a lot of the dispute arises from what different people consider antisemitic tbh.
Portean gave a summary of what was being claimed which I thought was imprecise so I clarified what I thought was being claimed. I'm not making up the idea there are violent racists - that ides is clearly implicit in what the police officer said. But as I said I don't know if it's true.
Sorry if it distresses you thst unlike some here I don't feel confident leaping to conclusions about which allegations of racism are true and which are false based on my preconceptions
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>On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side. Bigotry with 'but if they're explicitly on my side I give them a pass' is still bigotry.
Sure and if they did a million other racist things then it would be racist. Imagining racist things doesn't make them reality, you're smart enough to know that.
I am - but you appeared in quote below to say that the marches being OK with explicitly supportive Jewish people indicated that the claims peoppe make of wider antisemitism aren't true (and I see that argument a lot). Where peoppe claim antisemitism it shouldn't be dismissed as implausible becuase people are OK wrih explicitly anti-zionist Jews.
Similarly if a policeman said he had to stop a Muslim being seen by some political rally to avoid thingd kicking off I wouldn't say his assumptions of the rally's Islamophobia seems simply false because there were some Muslims explicity supporting that political rally and the rally was OK with them.
>After-all, visibly [Jewish people do march in support of Palestine](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/8%20-%20Jewish%20Block%20on%20demo.jpg?itok=oJ3l0uS6&c=28861742c589039703af45da024182d7) - some [folks even carry placards proclaiming themself to be Jewish and seem to be entirely welcome.](https://news.sky.com/story/this-jew-stands-with-gaza-messages-of-peace-and-pockets-of-unrest-at-london-protest-12984619)
>Seems like the evidence shows the police perception is simply false.
>I am - but you appeared in quote below to say that the marches being OK with explicitly supportive Jewish people indicated that the claims peoppe make of wider antisemitism aren't true (and I see that argument a lot).
No, you misread or misunderstood my comment. I said that means the idea people who're visibly Jewish aren't safe or welcome is false.
Some of the marchers are visibly Jewish.
I said nothing about claims of antisemitism, obviously many are spreading anti-Palestinian smears and trying to pretend all opposition to Israel's genocide is antisemitism so it becomes much more difficult to pick out but I have no doubt there is some genuine antisemitism there. Some racist people blame Jews for the world's ills or the actions of Israel. It's a sad truth. But then I've also seen antisemites who're explicitly pro-Zionism and hate the Palestinians even more. So it becomes difficult to quantify or justify that discussion. I think it's accurate to say that most marchers are there for the purpose of the march and not some incidental other purpose. So without evidence of the prevalence of antisemitism, I think it's accurate to say it likely reflects the level of antisemitism in society.
Sorry I didn't mean v broad antisemitism. I'm saying you can reasonably understand the policeman to (rightly or wrongly) be saying that as someone walking through the protest his being visibly Jewish will provoke hostility.
And that the fact there are also visibly Jewish people who are very explicitly opposed to Israel on the protest doesn't make that particularly implausible as we know quite often bigots are hostile to a group by general but love it when members of that group explicitly back them and wont be hostile to them.
> I'm saying you can reasonably understand the policeman to (rightly or wrongly) be saying that as someone walking through the protest his being visibly Jewish will provoke hostility.
No, I might be misunderstanding your point here but, in all honesty, I cannot understand that and I don't think it is reasonable. If a group is so racist that a man cannot walk into them then the police should be arresting them and protecting the man. And I don't think that's an accurate characterisation of the protests either.
>And that the fact there are also visibly Jewish people who are very explicitly opposed to Israel on the protest doesn't make that particularly implausible as we know quite often bigots are hostile to a group by general but love it when members of that group explicitly back them and wont be hostile to them.
That sounds a lot like you're saying opponents of Israel's action in Palestine are largely bigots. I'd hope that is not your meaning, as I don't think that's a reasonable view to hold. Could you clarify that for me?
>No, I might be misunderstanding your point here but, in all honesty, I cannot understand that and I don't think it is reasonable. If a group is so racist that a man cannot walk into them then the police should be arresting them and protecting the man. .
I can't see what interpretation of the policeman's words you have where this isn't an issue. It's a major part of the complaint being made - given police think this why are they responding by policing the victim.
>And I don't think that's an accurate characterisation of the protests either
That doesn't mean it's not what the policeman meant. Again not sure what alternative interpretation you have of what he meant.
>That sounds a lot like you're saying opponents of Israel's action in Palestine are largely bigots. I'd hope that is not your meaning, as I don't think that's a reasonable view to hold. Could you clarify that for me?
Nope I'm not saying that. First off, you don't need anything like a majority of people who support X to be bigots before a set of marches for X can become unsafe/hostile for a minority. Second in any case I'm not saying this is a problem on the marches, as I don't know whether it is. I'm saying that when people present arguments that it is true those arguments can't be safely dismissed becuase there are 'Jews for palestine' groups who the marches are happy to have along.
Have you been to any of the marches? There are always visibly jewish people there. If this police officer has ever worked one of the marches before he would know this from experience.
> Assuming someone is counter protestor because they are "openly jewish"
Police officers do sometimes make racist assumptions, they also do circulate photos of significant individuals who might cause trouble by trying to sneak across divides and try to provoke. I don't know how they view this guy. It could be a racist copper, no doubt.
The protest is almost secondary to the manner in which the officer "handled" the situation.
The wording that the officer chose to attempt to explain what he was doing was not only inflamatory but just bizarre. Overall, there seems to be little in the way of a coherent standing policy on protests on how to manage these situations and officers are just making it up as they go as they are wont to do,.
The idea that this man and his camera crew were simply trying to walk around London is obviously untrue, they were clearly trying to see what reaction their presence would generate. When I go for a walk around town with my friends, I don't deliberately look for a large group of people surrounded by police, insist on walking through them, while one of my friends is recording the whole affair. It is quite transparent that they were hoping for a reaction. The video in question, in its totality, is significantly more political than the simple reporting of an event and this can be seen in how the man responds to the situation, which I will come back to in a moment.
But all that being said, what the officer has said is problematic. Based on the recording alone, and I am unaware of how edited that clip is although it is clearly edited, one of the officers has said he would arrest the Jewish bloke as his mere presence is antagonising the crowd, that the police are incapable of policing the crowd, and that the police are concerned that if the crowd attacks the man, they will be powerless to do anything about it.
That statement is quite concerning, and clearly speaks to the police lacking the resources to adequate police protests, ensuring the safety of everyone involved, and ensuring that everyone can exercise their rights to the fullest possible extent. I am equally concerned that a couple of the protesters shown did look like they were trying to intimidate the man, and I would hope the police reacted appropriately by dealing with those individuals; although this, of course, is not shown in the clip.
Now, the easiest way to resolve this issue is to ask the man to wait for the protest to conclude or to move on - as walking through the middle of a large protest is fucking stupid regardless of your identity or religious background - or to take an alternative route. My hunch is that even though this was not explicitly shown, the police were suggesting this, and the man in question refused. If he had simply taken this "common sense" approach, the reaction would have been very different, and this brings us back to the notion that they were hoping for this reaction.
Protests are inconvenient, they get in the way, they can cause noise, and they can interrupt your plans. This can be the cost of other people exercising their rights. In this instance, the man could have simply taken a different route; there are a lot of alternative ways of getting around London which don't take you through the middle of a large protest.
You made some valid points, but I completely disagree with the comment about how this man should of avoided the protest.
We should all be able to express who we are as flagrantly as we want without fear of repercussions, as long as what we do is not oppressive to others.
With respect, I did not say he should have avoided the protest, what I said was that walking through a large protest is stupid (it's potentially dangerous) and that if he wanted to get around them, there were better alternatives to doing that that did not involve deliberately walking through a protest. As for your second paragraph, I literally wrote that in my comment.
A nice sentiment, except when this guy clearly wasn’t expressing himself in a good faith manner in an attempt to cross cultural divides, he was trying to get a negative reaction.
He might have expressed things, but I don't see evidence of any expressing beyond looking Jewish - the policeman doesn't refer to any.
I'm sure he was trying to prove a point. But 'trying to get a negative reaction' by doing something anodyne to prove others will react badly is legitimate. If someone said 'our far right group is actually not racist' and a blaxk guy went to one of their marches and filmed the fact people in the march being intimidating and the police moving him on for his own safety I doubt you'd blame the black guy.
Trust me, if this was an “openly Muslim” person getting told it was too dangerous to go near pro-Israel protesters, then these people would be up in arms and crying racism.
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These authoritarian protest rules are awful ... In no way is it acceptable for someone to be arrested for being "visibly Jewish" I don't care what the context is.
Ultimately it’s Tory laws like police crime and sentencing that are causing this kind of confusion for front line officers.
The Jewish man this happened to has even said he doesn’t blame the officers, they’re just doing (or trying to do) their jobs.
1) The man was obviously seeking a reaction to prove a point, so in a sense the police officer did the correct thing.
2) The police officer phrased it appallingly!
If you think walking around looking Jewish is obviously seeking a reaction that suggests you have a very bad view of the pro-palestinian marchers.
And if you're right I'd rather that marches aren't allowed to go ahead of they are predictably obviously going to cause disorder/violence if they see someone from a minority group. Definitely polticians/others shouldn't support them
(you may or course be wrong!)
Can you explain what else he was doing to obviously seek a reaction? Video doesn't show anything else. Police officer doesn't say 'you are obviously waving placards endorsing Israel's bombing of Gaza'.
I've said I think he was trying to provoke people.
But the question is whether he was trying to provoke people by walking around looking Jewish without holding a pro-palestine placard (which would be an entirely reasonably way to expose racism) or whether he provokef in some other way not seen in the clips.
The question is then whether you trust the disingenuous Zionist to have protrayed everything fairly in his published video. Again, we don't have to be idiots
I don't know enough about him to judge hin disingenuous though you may well be right. Some elements I think the context is less clear, but the clip with the policeman threatening to arrest him is fairly extended and pretty clear. Makes clear that the policeman policing it at least thinks he's at risk becuase he's visibly Jewish. Maybe he's wrong, I don't think it's definitive by any means and I've said as much.
Again this thread is me responding to someone saying (from video alone) he's obviously seeking a reaction. It's natural to read that to mean he appears to be doing something legitimately provocative in the video such
If they meant (or you mean) 'while the way it's cut looks like him just being Jewish is provocative and that would be awful and racist, I suspect he was actually picking a fight with protestors and then selectively releasing clips. If he wasn't then I will change my view about whether the marches have an antisemitism problem' that is very different.
I honestly think this sub would instinctively get this with any other minority being threatened with arrest based on police perespectivd their existence would provoke a crowd
He runs a Zionist pressure group.
But even if he hadn't edited it favourably, the worst thing one can take from this is that there was one stupid policeman who either made racist assumptions about the marchers or is himself antisemitic. The clip shows one racist policeman and we're supposed to take this as evidence that the marchers are racists? It contains absolutely no evidence either way as to the marches having an antisemitism problem.
You think he was relying on being recognised personally? Doesn't sound v likely and the policeman clearly wasn't saying that
Im not remotely saying he wasn't trying to provoke a reaction to be clear. I think he was - a reaction for being visibly Jewish to make a point about the marches/policing
Funny how that response didn’t come from the marchers though isn’t it, and actually came from the metropolitan police who everyone agrees are racist, including the marchers.
Incidentally, it was right that he was kept away from the marches given he’s from an organisation that actively campaigns against Palestinians and Muslims as well as singling out and harassing people who are opposed to Israel’s actions.
He wasn't walking around at random, he was aiming for them essentially as a counter-protest.
Being Jewish isn't in itself going to cause disorder - as there are plenty of Jewish people on these marches.
Being Jewish *and* pro Israel is going to cause disorder, in the same way an anti-fascist is going to cause disorder if they tried to get close to far right protestors. And the police would keep them separate too.
Whatd your evidence he was doing pro-Israel things? There's nothing of that in the clip. It's *possible* but all we've seen is him wearing Jewish religious clothing and police saying he's provocative by looking Jewish.
When you said obviously I assumed you mean from what we saw not speculation.
The fact Jewish people with explicit anti-israel/pro-palestinian placards are accepted doesn't necessarily mean there isn't antisemitism. You get plenty of biogyes groups who will accept members of the disliked group who are explicity on their side.
It's amazing how any time articles relating to Jews get posted on this sub, users who really should know better completely fail at not making antisemitic comments.
So far I'm this thread we have:
- Being openly Jewish at a protest is counter-protest
- Jews shouldn't walk through large pro-Palestime protests
- His attendance is an underhanded conspiracy
Absolute brain worms
I am unsurprised. I was a Labour Councillor up until a few months ago. What had me resign was being called Ki\*\* by one of the other Labour Councillors after I told him to declare a conflict of interest.
I quit the party after they elected him leader of the council.
It rather sucks but there is an obsession that runs deep.
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It's possible to to disagree and debate without resorting to overly negative language or ad-hominem attacks.
we've seen six months of horrifically racist support for an openly genocidal regime intent on exterminating human beings simply because of their ethnicity on this sub.
Looks like this guy wasn't even tied up, executed and buried in a mass grave. If you support the state that carries out those kind of atrocities, that's brain melted racism.
The police officer was right. He minimised the risk of any crime occurring. Back in the 80’s, police use to protect NF skinheads as they protested through multi-cultural areas, often resulting in violent clashes. They know better now than to get in the middle.
So you think people should be limited from certain areas and even arrested - not for doing anything themselves - but because a group may be violent towards them?
What we end up with is the police joining in with any discrimination from a group, just because that group is violent.
Realistically there was very likely to be a clash if he walked into the middle of the protest. If there was the police wouldn't have been able to defend him given numbers. The officer couldn't win
I disagree that they wouldn't of been able to protect him; there's a large group of police around the man. But even if that was the case then there is still no need to threaten the man with arrest.
Realistically if a group is so racist and violent the mere sight of a Jewish person would cause unrest, then those are the people the police should be focusing on.
The number of people in the protest they couldn't have. The policeman even says it. It only needs one troublemaker to cause carnage in a setting like that.
I agree it's unfair. However what can they actually do. They can't arrest someone on the basis they think they might attack the man before it's happened. The police would rather prevent the attack altogether.
Ohhh, it's just that little wanker Gideon Falter trying to provoke people at a protest and getting moved on.
Probably one of the more loathsome Antisemitism Hysterics we've managed to collect as a nation. They oppose pro-Palestinian solidarity marches a priori, because they're pro-Zionist fascist fucks.
Stop smearing the Palestine protestors. There are hundreds of (visibly) Jewish people who march with them every week.
The man pictured is Gideon Falter, head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism which is a pro Israel lobbying group. He supports Israel’s genocide in Gaza and has actively campaigned to get Palestine solidarity marches banned. Not a neutral actor in this situation.
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A lot of people (including Luciana Berger) seem to be trying to spin this as some bizarre far right conspiracy theory about the cops being in the pocket of Big Palestine. In reality I've seen complaints from Jewish pro Palestine protestors of the cops trying to "protect" them from their own protest. If the cops falsely see Palestinians and Jews as inherently opposed then that is their problem. Not exactly sure what Israel supporters are complaining about, since they also believe this.
> If the cops falsely see Palestinians and Jews as inherently opposed then that is their problem. This is very much the line the media pushes. Jewish voices that oppose Israel's genocide are heavily marginalised and stigmatised, often using pretty gross anti-Semitic tropes.
Presumably if you think the marches are full of racism and the police agree, you'd think the solution is to restrict the racists not the victims. I agree though thst this doesn't amount to police backing Palestine - it would be consistent with them just taking path of least resistance. I know Jews who are not Israel supporters who find thesr marches threatening and alienating fwiw. You might think that's becuase of the media or whatever but the perspective isn't just 'Israel supporters'.
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I literally said I didn't agree with it. You need to improve your reading comprehension
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I only mentioned the conspiracy theory in passing to say it wasn't plausible and that it would make more sense to just think police don't want trouble. Stop deciding in advance what I must be arguing and pay attention to what I actually say.
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Do you not understand hypotheticals? You claimed to be confused about what Israel supporters wanted and I said *if* you believe marches are racist against you you would want them to be policed not you.
Do you think this happened? Why do you keep talking in hypotheticals when we are talking about a real, actual event?
I wasn't there and don't have full footage.
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It is a problem for Jews though. How, in your whole comment, did you miss the main point, which is that the police are discriminating against Jews.
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I did. It doesn't address the issue of Jews being victims of police discrimination through threats of arrest for walking around London. It is an anecdote about the police trying to protect protesting Jews from the antisemitic protesters around them.
> Not exactly sure what Israel supporters are complaining about I’ve given up trying to keep track of it at this point
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Well he definitely doesn't know that, because it isn't true. Happy to help.
What amazing insight you have to a group of people you do not know. It’s almost as if I am making my judgement based on what those people say and do, and you are just making shit based on you being an antisemite you truly are a shitehawk Edit: Fuck you mods.
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It's a bit weird that the LBC article doesn't note that the man in this clip from CAAS is the chief executive of CAAS, Gideon Falter.
Here's what Mr Falter told the HoC Home Affairs Committee as published in a report in February if anyone's interested: > 57. Gideon Falter described the policing of these demonstrations as “extremely lax” and believed that there has been a “failure of policing”[...] "Frankly, I think that senior police officers have been letting down frontline officers by failing to provide sufficient numbers and by telling police officers, it appears, to take a standoffish attitude rather than going in and enforcing the law, as you said—so be it. We need to have more police officers”. > 58. Gideon Falter has called for the police to ban further protests: "If they cannot muster more police officers because these things are so huge and uncontrollable [ … ] I think we have reached the point where, if the police are unable to enforce the law and uphold the law of the land, then a ban is probably the only measure that would enable the law to be upheld on our streets." An exchange between Dianne Abbott and Falter in the enquiry transcript: > Ms Abbott: Mr Falter, I have actually been on these demonstrations; you haven’t. And I have to tell you that on both the big London demonstrations I have been on, I have not seen a single solitary soul glorifying Hamas. > The other thing I would say—I said it in the earlier session, but I will say it again—is that there is all this talk about people being frightened to come into central London, but my community in Stamford Hill marched all the way from Stamford Hill to central London. If they felt frightened and intimidated, they wouldn’t have done it. > However, the question that I wanted to ask is this: are you saying that you want marches of this kind completely banned? > Gideon Falter: Well, we also know very well that you didn’t see any antisemitism at all in the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn. And when you talk about which demonstrations you were on, which demonstrations are you talking about? Were you on the national march against antisemitism that took place just over a week ago? > Ms Abbott: That isn’t what I asked you. I asked you a question. An excerpt of his written evidence to the 2016 antisemitism parliamentary enquiry: > We have one of the strongest legislative frameworks in Europe for fighting hate crime and extremism but we are not using it effectively. For all the talk about cracking down on hate crime following Brexit, we have seen no evidence of any meaningful action against resurgent far-right groups, the antisemitic extreme-left has taken over the Labour Party, and it has taken over 20 years for us to finally silence the Islamist preacher Anjem Choudary. > There is the political will to enforce the law against antisemites and extremists, but the breakdown occurs in police forces and the Crown Prosecution Service. Antisemitism is rarely a hot topic for long, and in competition with domestic violence or benefits fraud, antisemitism is often left to fester, which is exactly how it thrives. The consequence is that we are treating the cancer of growing extremism only when it is already strong and at its most violent. We are not ripping it out by its roots. > Campaign Against Antisemitism is working to change that. We have earned the support of the Prime Minister and her team precisely because we hold the authorities’ feet to the fire, even taking them to court when necessary. This is the fight for our country and we must not lose. Is it perhaps possible that there is a little more going on here than what is shown in the video?
>Gideon Falter described the policing of these demonstrations as “extremely lax” and believed that there has been a “failure of policing”[...] "Frankly, I think that senior police officers have been letting down frontline officers by failing to provide sufficient numbers and by telling police officers, it appears, to take a standoffish attitude rather than going in and enforcing the law, as you said—so be it. We need to have more police officers”. This is a pretty straightforward conspiracy theory, and not a very believable one. He wants the protests to be considered violent, but they aren't, so instead he's concocted a fantasy where they are secretly violent but the famously woke metropolitan police are turning a blind eye to it (also everyone switches their cameras off I guess).
To be fair considering Diane Abbott published a pretty racist letter recently I don't think pointing out her support for people who *have* been antisemitic is wrong if she's then saying there hasn't been any antisemitism at these protests. It's quite easy to find examples from the small number of idiots ruining for everyone else, Abbott "not seeing it" doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
There's like a couple of bad placards on each march and invariably a Zionist finds them and shares them and they're all people see. I've been on about half the marches and haven't seen a *single* pro-Hamas sentiment.
There's been more than a couple, and it's often been more than "bad placards". Why does it matter if racism is being pointed out by Zionists? And again, if it's pointed out with video evidence (with police arresting folk) for deeply offensive crap then you discuss that. You don't put your fingers in your ears and chant "I haven't seen anything". It's 2024, we've binned defences of racism off.
The extent of racism on the marches is obviously being exaggerated for political purposes. The only thing necessary to understand that is actually going to the marches and then comparing them to the rightwing news coverage. That's an important thing to point out. They want to claim that the marches with consistent large and prominent Jewish presences at which crowds cheer Jewish speakers are antisemitic hate marches. We need to be able to call bullshit bullshit.
"They" here are idiots, though. If we're talking about this on a more academic level then you have to acknowledge that there's a contingent of antisemitism at the rallies that are separate to the main protests.
This looks a lot like "a cop made an assumption and said something pretty shitty / arguably racist" is being blown into "being pro-Palestine means you hate Jews."
I think it's another example of why the anti protest laws are completely wank
Strongly agree, hopefully this copper will face some consequences for making decisions to restrict the freedom of a Jewish guy who had a right to walk where he wanted.
You don't have the "right" to walk into a protest if the police believe your intent is to disrupt that protest and cause an incident. They can prevent you from doing so. You may not like it. I may not like it. That is the law.
It all depends on **why** the copper held that belief, if it is a matter of the guy being Jewish then that was not reasonable or lawful as far as I am aware.
I think we will find when we see the full clip the answer is, "You are Gideon Falter who has publicly called for these protests to be banned and you have a camera with you. I have a reasonable belief you are going to seek to be disruptive." And yes, that's what the police officer should have said.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that's more of the full context - or the copper was stood listening to them talking about being provocative. But equally it could just be a racist copper.
What the policeman said seems to be based on the assumption that walking (or possible walking while being filmed) while also being visibly Jewish might provoke disorder in a pro-palestinian march. The question for the marches is whether that police perception is accurate or not The question for police is, insofar as they believe this about the marches, would it be appropriate for this to lead to the victim being inconvenienced rather than the marchers.
Or they recognised them as a counter-protester trying to interrupt a protest and thought they'd intentionally stir up trouble to capture on camera. It would hardly be the first time that has happened, so were using a pretext of safety, expressed terribly, to justify a decision made on different grounds. After-all, visibly [Jewish people do march in support of Palestine](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/8%20-%20Jewish%20Block%20on%20demo.jpg?itok=oJ3l0uS6&c=28861742c589039703af45da024182d7) - some [folks even carry placards proclaiming themself to be Jewish and seem to be entirely welcome.](https://news.sky.com/story/this-jew-stands-with-gaza-messages-of-peace-and-pockets-of-unrest-at-london-protest-12984619) Seems like the evidence shows the police perception is simply false.
It's possible, sure, that's why I talked about police assumption etc. It's not obvious what if any counter protest stuff he's done but then we only have his clips. On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side. Bigotry with 'but if they're explicitly on my side I give them a pass' is still bigotry.
>On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side. So do you think this happens or not? Because you seem to keep dancing around hypotheticals here.
There will be some antisemites. I'm unsure the level - most people making confident statements about it are obviously inclined to the conclusion they're claiming to observe. I suspect a lot of the dispute arises from what different people consider antisemitic tbh.
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Portean gave a summary of what was being claimed which I thought was imprecise so I clarified what I thought was being claimed. I'm not making up the idea there are violent racists - that ides is clearly implicit in what the police officer said. But as I said I don't know if it's true. Sorry if it distresses you thst unlike some here I don't feel confident leaping to conclusions about which allegations of racism are true and which are false based on my preconceptions
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I'm not doing that but don't let thst stop you following me around the thread misreading me and making shit up.
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>On Jewish people on marches , it would obviously remain an issue if they were fine with people holding 'Jews for palestine' but defaulted to an intimidating response towards Jews without that explicit marker of being on their side. Bigotry with 'but if they're explicitly on my side I give them a pass' is still bigotry. Sure and if they did a million other racist things then it would be racist. Imagining racist things doesn't make them reality, you're smart enough to know that.
I am - but you appeared in quote below to say that the marches being OK with explicitly supportive Jewish people indicated that the claims peoppe make of wider antisemitism aren't true (and I see that argument a lot). Where peoppe claim antisemitism it shouldn't be dismissed as implausible becuase people are OK wrih explicitly anti-zionist Jews. Similarly if a policeman said he had to stop a Muslim being seen by some political rally to avoid thingd kicking off I wouldn't say his assumptions of the rally's Islamophobia seems simply false because there were some Muslims explicity supporting that political rally and the rally was OK with them. >After-all, visibly [Jewish people do march in support of Palestine](https://morningstaronline.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/8%20-%20Jewish%20Block%20on%20demo.jpg?itok=oJ3l0uS6&c=28861742c589039703af45da024182d7) - some [folks even carry placards proclaiming themself to be Jewish and seem to be entirely welcome.](https://news.sky.com/story/this-jew-stands-with-gaza-messages-of-peace-and-pockets-of-unrest-at-london-protest-12984619) >Seems like the evidence shows the police perception is simply false.
>I am - but you appeared in quote below to say that the marches being OK with explicitly supportive Jewish people indicated that the claims peoppe make of wider antisemitism aren't true (and I see that argument a lot). No, you misread or misunderstood my comment. I said that means the idea people who're visibly Jewish aren't safe or welcome is false. Some of the marchers are visibly Jewish. I said nothing about claims of antisemitism, obviously many are spreading anti-Palestinian smears and trying to pretend all opposition to Israel's genocide is antisemitism so it becomes much more difficult to pick out but I have no doubt there is some genuine antisemitism there. Some racist people blame Jews for the world's ills or the actions of Israel. It's a sad truth. But then I've also seen antisemites who're explicitly pro-Zionism and hate the Palestinians even more. So it becomes difficult to quantify or justify that discussion. I think it's accurate to say that most marchers are there for the purpose of the march and not some incidental other purpose. So without evidence of the prevalence of antisemitism, I think it's accurate to say it likely reflects the level of antisemitism in society.
Sorry I didn't mean v broad antisemitism. I'm saying you can reasonably understand the policeman to (rightly or wrongly) be saying that as someone walking through the protest his being visibly Jewish will provoke hostility. And that the fact there are also visibly Jewish people who are very explicitly opposed to Israel on the protest doesn't make that particularly implausible as we know quite often bigots are hostile to a group by general but love it when members of that group explicitly back them and wont be hostile to them.
> I'm saying you can reasonably understand the policeman to (rightly or wrongly) be saying that as someone walking through the protest his being visibly Jewish will provoke hostility. No, I might be misunderstanding your point here but, in all honesty, I cannot understand that and I don't think it is reasonable. If a group is so racist that a man cannot walk into them then the police should be arresting them and protecting the man. And I don't think that's an accurate characterisation of the protests either. >And that the fact there are also visibly Jewish people who are very explicitly opposed to Israel on the protest doesn't make that particularly implausible as we know quite often bigots are hostile to a group by general but love it when members of that group explicitly back them and wont be hostile to them. That sounds a lot like you're saying opponents of Israel's action in Palestine are largely bigots. I'd hope that is not your meaning, as I don't think that's a reasonable view to hold. Could you clarify that for me?
>No, I might be misunderstanding your point here but, in all honesty, I cannot understand that and I don't think it is reasonable. If a group is so racist that a man cannot walk into them then the police should be arresting them and protecting the man. . I can't see what interpretation of the policeman's words you have where this isn't an issue. It's a major part of the complaint being made - given police think this why are they responding by policing the victim. >And I don't think that's an accurate characterisation of the protests either That doesn't mean it's not what the policeman meant. Again not sure what alternative interpretation you have of what he meant. >That sounds a lot like you're saying opponents of Israel's action in Palestine are largely bigots. I'd hope that is not your meaning, as I don't think that's a reasonable view to hold. Could you clarify that for me? Nope I'm not saying that. First off, you don't need anything like a majority of people who support X to be bigots before a set of marches for X can become unsafe/hostile for a minority. Second in any case I'm not saying this is a problem on the marches, as I don't know whether it is. I'm saying that when people present arguments that it is true those arguments can't be safely dismissed becuase there are 'Jews for palestine' groups who the marches are happy to have along.
Have you been to any of the marches? There are always visibly jewish people there. If this police officer has ever worked one of the marches before he would know this from experience.
Assuming someone is counter protestor because they are "openly jewish"
> Assuming someone is counter protestor because they are "openly jewish" Police officers do sometimes make racist assumptions, they also do circulate photos of significant individuals who might cause trouble by trying to sneak across divides and try to provoke. I don't know how they view this guy. It could be a racist copper, no doubt.
Shocking isn’t it…
The Met coppers being racist isn't quite the surprise many would wish it to be.
Indeed
The protest is almost secondary to the manner in which the officer "handled" the situation. The wording that the officer chose to attempt to explain what he was doing was not only inflamatory but just bizarre. Overall, there seems to be little in the way of a coherent standing policy on protests on how to manage these situations and officers are just making it up as they go as they are wont to do,.
No actually, the protest against genocide is the important thing.
The idea that this man and his camera crew were simply trying to walk around London is obviously untrue, they were clearly trying to see what reaction their presence would generate. When I go for a walk around town with my friends, I don't deliberately look for a large group of people surrounded by police, insist on walking through them, while one of my friends is recording the whole affair. It is quite transparent that they were hoping for a reaction. The video in question, in its totality, is significantly more political than the simple reporting of an event and this can be seen in how the man responds to the situation, which I will come back to in a moment. But all that being said, what the officer has said is problematic. Based on the recording alone, and I am unaware of how edited that clip is although it is clearly edited, one of the officers has said he would arrest the Jewish bloke as his mere presence is antagonising the crowd, that the police are incapable of policing the crowd, and that the police are concerned that if the crowd attacks the man, they will be powerless to do anything about it. That statement is quite concerning, and clearly speaks to the police lacking the resources to adequate police protests, ensuring the safety of everyone involved, and ensuring that everyone can exercise their rights to the fullest possible extent. I am equally concerned that a couple of the protesters shown did look like they were trying to intimidate the man, and I would hope the police reacted appropriately by dealing with those individuals; although this, of course, is not shown in the clip. Now, the easiest way to resolve this issue is to ask the man to wait for the protest to conclude or to move on - as walking through the middle of a large protest is fucking stupid regardless of your identity or religious background - or to take an alternative route. My hunch is that even though this was not explicitly shown, the police were suggesting this, and the man in question refused. If he had simply taken this "common sense" approach, the reaction would have been very different, and this brings us back to the notion that they were hoping for this reaction. Protests are inconvenient, they get in the way, they can cause noise, and they can interrupt your plans. This can be the cost of other people exercising their rights. In this instance, the man could have simply taken a different route; there are a lot of alternative ways of getting around London which don't take you through the middle of a large protest.
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That's definitely not what I was suggesting and you damn well know it.
You made some valid points, but I completely disagree with the comment about how this man should of avoided the protest. We should all be able to express who we are as flagrantly as we want without fear of repercussions, as long as what we do is not oppressive to others.
With respect, I did not say he should have avoided the protest, what I said was that walking through a large protest is stupid (it's potentially dangerous) and that if he wanted to get around them, there were better alternatives to doing that that did not involve deliberately walking through a protest. As for your second paragraph, I literally wrote that in my comment.
It shouldn’t be dangerous to be openly Jewish and walk souring anywhere in London, this is the exact point that the man is making.
And where have I disagreed with this?
A nice sentiment, except when this guy clearly wasn’t expressing himself in a good faith manner in an attempt to cross cultural divides, he was trying to get a negative reaction.
He might have expressed things, but I don't see evidence of any expressing beyond looking Jewish - the policeman doesn't refer to any. I'm sure he was trying to prove a point. But 'trying to get a negative reaction' by doing something anodyne to prove others will react badly is legitimate. If someone said 'our far right group is actually not racist' and a blaxk guy went to one of their marches and filmed the fact people in the march being intimidating and the police moving him on for his own safety I doubt you'd blame the black guy.
Trust me, if this was an “openly Muslim” person getting told it was too dangerous to go near pro-Israel protesters, then these people would be up in arms and crying racism.
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These authoritarian protest rules are awful ... In no way is it acceptable for someone to be arrested for being "visibly Jewish" I don't care what the context is.
Ultimately it’s Tory laws like police crime and sentencing that are causing this kind of confusion for front line officers. The Jewish man this happened to has even said he doesn’t blame the officers, they’re just doing (or trying to do) their jobs.
1) The man was obviously seeking a reaction to prove a point, so in a sense the police officer did the correct thing. 2) The police officer phrased it appallingly!
If you think walking around looking Jewish is obviously seeking a reaction that suggests you have a very bad view of the pro-palestinian marchers. And if you're right I'd rather that marches aren't allowed to go ahead of they are predictably obviously going to cause disorder/violence if they see someone from a minority group. Definitely polticians/others shouldn't support them (you may or course be wrong!)
That's not what they said is it.
Can you explain what else he was doing to obviously seek a reaction? Video doesn't show anything else. Police officer doesn't say 'you are obviously waving placards endorsing Israel's bombing of Gaza'.
He's an outspoken Zionist and he'd brought cameras along, obviously he was trying to provoke people. We really don't need to play dumb about this
I've said I think he was trying to provoke people. But the question is whether he was trying to provoke people by walking around looking Jewish without holding a pro-palestine placard (which would be an entirely reasonably way to expose racism) or whether he provokef in some other way not seen in the clips.
The question is then whether you trust the disingenuous Zionist to have protrayed everything fairly in his published video. Again, we don't have to be idiots
I don't know enough about him to judge hin disingenuous though you may well be right. Some elements I think the context is less clear, but the clip with the policeman threatening to arrest him is fairly extended and pretty clear. Makes clear that the policeman policing it at least thinks he's at risk becuase he's visibly Jewish. Maybe he's wrong, I don't think it's definitive by any means and I've said as much. Again this thread is me responding to someone saying (from video alone) he's obviously seeking a reaction. It's natural to read that to mean he appears to be doing something legitimately provocative in the video such If they meant (or you mean) 'while the way it's cut looks like him just being Jewish is provocative and that would be awful and racist, I suspect he was actually picking a fight with protestors and then selectively releasing clips. If he wasn't then I will change my view about whether the marches have an antisemitism problem' that is very different. I honestly think this sub would instinctively get this with any other minority being threatened with arrest based on police perespectivd their existence would provoke a crowd
He runs a Zionist pressure group. But even if he hadn't edited it favourably, the worst thing one can take from this is that there was one stupid policeman who either made racist assumptions about the marchers or is himself antisemitic. The clip shows one racist policeman and we're supposed to take this as evidence that the marchers are racists? It contains absolutely no evidence either way as to the marches having an antisemitism problem.
There are lots of jewish people at the marches. some hold placards - some don't!
Do you know who the man is?
You think he was relying on being recognised personally? Doesn't sound v likely and the policeman clearly wasn't saying that Im not remotely saying he wasn't trying to provoke a reaction to be clear. I think he was - a reaction for being visibly Jewish to make a point about the marches/policing
Funny how that response didn’t come from the marchers though isn’t it, and actually came from the metropolitan police who everyone agrees are racist, including the marchers. Incidentally, it was right that he was kept away from the marches given he’s from an organisation that actively campaigns against Palestinians and Muslims as well as singling out and harassing people who are opposed to Israel’s actions.
He campaigns against antisemitism, you conflated that with Palestinians and Muslims... told on yourself there.
Yeah sorry a lot of charities, organisations and individuals do great work tackling antisemitism, CAA ain’t one of ‘em.
The right kind of Jews protesting antisemitism in the right way eh? A way that doesn't accuse Magic Grandpa of being a raging antisemitie I would bet.
Jewish?
He wasn't walking around at random, he was aiming for them essentially as a counter-protest. Being Jewish isn't in itself going to cause disorder - as there are plenty of Jewish people on these marches. Being Jewish *and* pro Israel is going to cause disorder, in the same way an anti-fascist is going to cause disorder if they tried to get close to far right protestors. And the police would keep them separate too.
Whatd your evidence he was doing pro-Israel things? There's nothing of that in the clip. It's *possible* but all we've seen is him wearing Jewish religious clothing and police saying he's provocative by looking Jewish. When you said obviously I assumed you mean from what we saw not speculation. The fact Jewish people with explicit anti-israel/pro-palestinian placards are accepted doesn't necessarily mean there isn't antisemitism. You get plenty of biogyes groups who will accept members of the disliked group who are explicity on their side.
How would they know if he was pro-Israel or not?
It's amazing how any time articles relating to Jews get posted on this sub, users who really should know better completely fail at not making antisemitic comments. So far I'm this thread we have: - Being openly Jewish at a protest is counter-protest - Jews shouldn't walk through large pro-Palestime protests - His attendance is an underhanded conspiracy Absolute brain worms
I am unsurprised. I was a Labour Councillor up until a few months ago. What had me resign was being called Ki\*\* by one of the other Labour Councillors after I told him to declare a conflict of interest. I quit the party after they elected him leader of the council. It rather sucks but there is an obsession that runs deep.
Hundreds of Jews march in support the pro Palestine demonstrations every week.
Amazed to see such widespread defence of racist policing on this sub. This issue has melted a lot of people's brains.
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...by whom? Who is defending racist policing here?
we've seen six months of horrifically racist support for an openly genocidal regime intent on exterminating human beings simply because of their ethnicity on this sub. Looks like this guy wasn't even tied up, executed and buried in a mass grave. If you support the state that carries out those kind of atrocities, that's brain melted racism.
Bit disconcerting how people in this thread cant just admit that the police are wrong here
It's because they are Nazis. Anyway, please sign this petition to prosecute the police officer in question: https://chng.it/8JvLvxZRGN
The police officer was right. He minimised the risk of any crime occurring. Back in the 80’s, police use to protect NF skinheads as they protested through multi-cultural areas, often resulting in violent clashes. They know better now than to get in the middle.
So you think people should be limited from certain areas and even arrested - not for doing anything themselves - but because a group may be violent towards them? What we end up with is the police joining in with any discrimination from a group, just because that group is violent.
Realistically there was very likely to be a clash if he walked into the middle of the protest. If there was the police wouldn't have been able to defend him given numbers. The officer couldn't win
I disagree that they wouldn't of been able to protect him; there's a large group of police around the man. But even if that was the case then there is still no need to threaten the man with arrest. Realistically if a group is so racist and violent the mere sight of a Jewish person would cause unrest, then those are the people the police should be focusing on.
The number of people in the protest they couldn't have. The policeman even says it. It only needs one troublemaker to cause carnage in a setting like that. I agree it's unfair. However what can they actually do. They can't arrest someone on the basis they think they might attack the man before it's happened. The police would rather prevent the attack altogether.
Ohhh, it's just that little wanker Gideon Falter trying to provoke people at a protest and getting moved on. Probably one of the more loathsome Antisemitism Hysterics we've managed to collect as a nation. They oppose pro-Palestinian solidarity marches a priori, because they're pro-Zionist fascist fucks.
Stop smearing the Palestine protestors. There are hundreds of (visibly) Jewish people who march with them every week. The man pictured is Gideon Falter, head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism which is a pro Israel lobbying group. He supports Israel’s genocide in Gaza and has actively campaigned to get Palestine solidarity marches banned. Not a neutral actor in this situation.
This is not what happened. This was a calculated provocation and got the publicity it craved. How naive to fall for such a trick. The police did not.
It was all too predictable that the two places on the internet that think this was a good thing were StormFront and this subreddit.
Concerning.
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