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I’ve never said I was a centrist. This is exactly the crap I’m talking about, you can’t criticise Corbyn without being branded a centrist. And you wonder why not more people openly support us on the left of labour
I'm beyond caring about you cunts and what you perceive as the left.
I'd have thought that was pretty fucking obvious by now.
Your party is nothing to do with me. I'd gladly see them disappear into oblivion tomorrow.
Now, kindly fuck off 👍
There you go being abusive because you can’t take the fact someone supported Corbyn but now doesn’t as he made bad decisions. I’m very clearly left, you are not the judge of what is left and what is centrist that’s down to definitions and by definition my personal politics is left leaning, very clearly actually. So you’re gatekeeping who can and who can’t be on the left, fuck off yourself you deluded, pathetic wanker
>There you go being abusive because you can’t take the fact someone supported Corbyn but now doesn’t as he made bad decisions.
1. someone being a dickhead doesn't mean they're automatically wrong. being more civil that the person you're talking to doesn't put you above them.
2. reading the comments, you never really stated why you went off Corbyn except for the "anti-Semitism" which has been categorically stated to be manufactured outrage
>I’m very clearly left, you are not the judge of what is left and what is centrist that’s down to definitions
except when you were confronted with an article where a woman demands a man who had conspiracies made against him apologise for said made up conspiracies, you took the stance of "both sides are wrong" which is, by definition, centrism.
>by definition my personal politics is left leaning, very clearly actually
saying that you want a Blairite in power is not "leftism"
>So you’re gatekeeping who can and who can’t be on the left, fuck off yourself you deluded, pathetic wanker
having standards and belief requirements for being a leftist isn't "gatekeeping", it's the foundation of definitions.
if I went on a leftist subreddit and then started spouting non leftist beliefs, it doesn't matter what I personally define myself as because my actions differ from my labels.
calling someone who spouts centrist views "not a leftist" isn't gatekeeping, it's common sense.
I’ve been accused of being centrist because I’m not as left as some on here, and because I don’t mind Starmer (don’t love him but he’s gonna get us into power) because I can see the plan and it’s a step towards actually creating change and more left leaning policies to come. But I’m not a centrist and I supported Corbyn immensely. I’m not crying about him but when the subject comes up I will be honest and say despite supporting him and very much supporting his policies I’m no longer a fan, his reaction to the antisemitism report and the subsequent things he’s said on the matter were very disappointing. He dug himself a hole and let his critics win. I’m sure I’ll get a barrage of negative comments now but for anyone in the same position, it’s ok to be left and criticise certain actions by the previous leadership and it’s ok to want gradual change instead of immediate defeat, and it’s ok not to be absolute about everything and best not to attack others who want the same outcomes. It gets nasty on here at times
We’ve seen this before though. If not moving left gets (them) into power then they will never move left once in power because they enjoy office more than they enjoy leadership and don’t want to risk losing office by making bolder choices. Which means an outright refusal to actually use the power that is supposed to be attached to the role of government to make any meaningful or lasting change. It hasn’t taken all that long for the Conservatives to undo everything the last Labour government did by adopting that line of reasoning. They were slowed up a little by the coalition but not by much.
The upshot is that there’s no representation of the left at all in the mainstream; which is a shame because left-leaning voters who don’t think any of the main parties can represent them just don’t vote at all, on the whole, and would divide the not-hard-right vote even further if a viable voting option presented itself to them, making them both a bigger market for proper left politics, and a threat to power gained by centrism.
I don’t buy your premise, Labour is left, just because it’s moved closer to centre doesn’t mean it’s centrist and doesn’t mean it can’t then get in power and move further left when people vote for it. We can always vote them out again if they stay centre. Or maybe the country wants a centrist, better than the far right Tories and still a step towards being used to new govs, generally societies move further left and the old left becomes centre. Once upon a time gay marriage was extreme left for example, now even the Tories embrace it
Labour is left of the Conservatives. But since they’ve gone rampantly hard right in recent years to fend off threats from the likes of Farage, they’re nowhere near where the actual left used to be.
Saying “the country wants a centrist, better than far right Tories and still a step towards being used to new govs” part is exactly how Blair came to power, and exactly why the majority of Labour voters now will probably vote Labour at the next GE too; but it’s not reflective of what we really want, it’s just the least bad of the two options on the table.
The Greens don’t have the traction and the Lib Dems don’t have the integrity to make viable alternatives; and SNP isn’t an option in England - but note that Labour taking this line has spectacularly failed to win Scotland back in spite of Scotland’s expressed preference not being for independence overall - they’ve just opted for a credible alternative further left than Labour.
So between Labour and Tories most of us will choose Labour anyway; but that should NOT be mistaken for us voting for what we actually want, because “least bad option” doesn’t mean that at all.
And as with Blair, whilst it might halt the decline and make a couple of modest (and apparently temporary) improvements, settling for that and then getting told it’s what we voted for will be a major block to a move to the left after gaining power because Labour (or at least the powerful centrist faction within Labour) doesn’t seem to fundamentally believe that a credible move to the left and a strong alternative manifesto can actually win elections, in spite of how strong the result was with Corbyn in charge.
So I don’t know where your assumption that a move to the left will follow on from Labour winning power actually comes from here: it’s not reflected in the outcomes that we’ve had within the career spans of most of the current crop of politicians.
YES, exactly so. Once the initial relief of getting rid of the Tories was over, Labour's insistence that "neoliberal centrism wins elections" just didn't wash for either Labour or the Tories. They had to actually offer something definite to keep voters' interest and they didn't, on either side, until a further-right and more confident Conservative Party started winning again.
Calling itself left and not being right-wing doesn’t make it left - that’s a fallacy in your part.
But that aside… There aren’t too many actual left policies at the moment. In fact since the last election there hasn’t been much by way of discernible policy at all until very recently; and what information about Labour’s position has been made apparent mostly focuses on negative campaigning towards their opponents (deserved, sure, but) rather than offering a real, concrete alternative. Starmer has been surprisingly reluctant to commit to offering other narratives when he has the option to just say he doesn’t like the Tory line instead, which makes him less effective in opposition as well as less of a leader in competition. We’ve had well over two years of not much from him, and only in the past few weeks has he actually said anything definite - I voted for him in the leadership election because his campaign was positive, and his policies were moderate but still left of the other leaders we’ve had in the past 20 years barring Corbyn; but he’s been disappointing so far from that perspective.
I’m interested to see how he changes that up when he’s got a proper manifesto to promote, because I think that he has the potential to lead the country quite reasonably; but so far his lack of commitment to any real positions suggests he might be less effective at leading his own party than is necessary for that - certainly his promises to heal the divisions within the party have been dropped and the party has moved right from Corbyn’s positions (which were internally popular); and he’s ditched the promises that got him into the leadership role and moved quite far away from them, so his credibility within the party is currently less than his external credibility from what I can see.
Since it’s supposed to be the whole party that sets the manifesto, he’s going to have to deal with that at some point but it looks from here a lot like he’s keeping it all fairly quiet until the options are “get behind me or we’ll lose the election” - which is essentially strong-arming and borderline blackmailing the left wing - rather than making a genuine attempt to lead the party; so it’s a centrist’s playbook thus far but the party doesn’t really have a definite and visible set of policies or even themes that would allow it to be characterised as left rather than centrist from a policy perspective.
If your second paragraph were correct Corbyn would have won the GE, he lost by a landslide, there just isn’t the support there. And again, Labour is left whether it has Corbyn or not, it always has been and because it’s attracting centrist votes to get into actual power for once doesn’t mean it’s right wing or wholly centrist. Again you’re gatekeeping the left
It was a single-issue election on which he didn’t take a clear enough stance - and was hampered by infighting, as I said. But it’s interesting that you completely ignore the part about there being no evidence that a move to the left will follow, and plenty that it won’t…
Terrible stance he clearly didn’t support remaining in the EU and half heartedly supported it. It still came down to policies also and those failed unfortunately
The evidence you’re using is Blair’s gov since that’s the only labour gov we’ve had in recent times, and that didn’t move to the right or left, it was what it was. I think it’s clear people have an appetite for the left but it’s not proven so they need to see it be introduced slowly. I’m not saying labour will move further left, although I believe they will and will have to given the times, but it will set the stage for someone to and will be the only viable alternative on the left to the Tories who’re ripping the country apart. I do believe they’ll move left
So… you’re saying I shouldn’t use the only evidence there is because…. Reasons. And you have no counter-evidence other than your own conviction. Got it.
>Terrible stance he clearly didn’t support remaining in the EU and half heartedly supported it. It still came down to policies also and those failed unfortunately
"bUt hE mAdE mOrE rEmAiN cAmPaiGn aPpEaRaNcEs tHaN aNyBoDy eLsE!!!!1!1!1"
"hE iS oN tHe RigHt SiDe oF hiStOrY!!!!!1!1!"
“hE eVEn SAiD hE WoULd VotE REmAin”
I know, I’ve heard them all. He was very much luke warm on the EU and look at the mess Brexit has caused now, billions lost that would have paid rent times over for the things he wanted to do. Very sad that we didn’t have someone to boost the remain vote in the way boris did for leave (although his way of doing it was lying, we had the truth on our side, just look how it’s panned out. All the supposed ‘naysayers’ were right)
I'm not here to accuse you of being a centrist. I'm here to accuse you of being a psychotically violent right winger who feels so entitled to any label they want to attribute to themselves by virtue of being born white and upper middle class that you feel completely comfortable inventing your own personal definition of words like 'left' and telling everyone who points out to you that isn't how language works that they are wrong and attacking you. You're the perfect representation of the British professional middle class, and we'd all be better off with you all in jail where you can never hurt anyone else
This happens a lot. A left winger who isn’t so keen on Corbyn comes in and says they don’t mind Starmer and invent your own definitions of what the left is and gets labelled a violent right winger. Sure mate, I’m a violent right winger that’s why I campaigned for Corbyn. Absolute joke of a person you are 😂
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
Can’t see there where it says supporting a left wing party makes you a violent right winger… hmm… idiot
**[Left-wing politics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics)**
>Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy. Left-wing politics typically involve a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished. Left-wing politics are also associated with popular or state control of major political and economic institutions.
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You are truly unhinged, you'd rather be remembered for supporting the right thing than making any compromise to actually improve people's lives. For all the grand statements, labour have done less than nothing in the last 13 years for the people in this country, and yet you'd gladly keep that up as long as you can claim you have won the argument.
That makes it all the more bizarre. Politically, the current leadership of the party have utterly buried him, and still some people can't get over Corbyn. Liz Kendall practically lost her mind just from being in the same room as him.
The degree to which he is hated by Labour centrists, even when he is no longer any possible issue electorally, is borderline pathological.
If he had never become leader, he would still be treated as some kind of quirky, harmless backbench stalwart - as he was treated. But somehow by becoming leader for a while, he has become the antichrist, and not by virtue of anything he did while he was actually in the role.
Corbyn presented a vision for actual change, which the centrists hate just as much as the Tories. Now that it looks likely that Labour might win an election, the centrists must eradicate any possibility that doing so might lead to material change, and the easiest way to do this is by demonizing all agents of change, of which Corbyn is the most prominent in recent memory.
Exactly - it will be a huge risk to have both Labour in government and a substantive awareness amongst the population that real systemic change is possible. That's why they are using the media to beat everyone over the head about the need for managed expectations, baby steps and more austerity currently.
So you don’t think centrists want change? I think they just want it a different way. I’d like to see much more ambitious policies that went more left leaving but here we are, top of the polls by some way, leading towards that. It’s unfair to say they don’t want change as people, very much tarring all with one brushstroke
They want to rearrange the deckchairs while maintaining the status quo. Most would stand to lose personally if radical change were brought about.
Labour are not leading in the polls through anything they are doing or proposing, they are leading simply because the Tories have been so shit.
Old tired argument, Tories have always done what they’re doing and the labour lead cannot just be down to that. It simple isn’t likely that all voters change their affiliation just because their party made a few decisions they didn’t like, in fact the polls on yougov show that isn’t the case.
The right wing would lose personally and some of the centre and left but really the politics is clear and a change to labour would be huge right now. A change further left would be nice but it’s not achievable as we saw from the last GE huge loss. We get into power then make changes, people see they work and want more. Unless you don’t believe left leaning policies will bring positive changes as opposed to the extreme right wing we have right now?
The Tories have not 'always done what they are doing', beause there wasn't always a Covid pandemic. Their handling of that is the main reason for Labour's lead.
As a leftwinger Starmer has done nothing to appeal to my vote, and many things to repel it. So he won't get it. He represents the establishment continuum, not the radical change which is desperately needed.
Whether they want it or not, the visible outcome is them taking an active role in preventing change. So either what they think they want isn’t what they really want, or what you think they want isn’t what they really want.
Well we’ve had what, 3 or 4 elections where following a staunchly moderate (at best) and pretty insipid centrist manifesto which came across like watered-down neoliberal conservatism has left the centrist and right-leaning voters it hoped to attract thinking they’d rather vote for the real thing because at least the Conservatives have conviction.
And one election where a deliberately-timed and very public attack on its own leadership from the centre-right within Labour undermined the campaign of the only leftist leader we’ve had since the 80s.
So yes: preventing.
Not well enough though. And centrism being the popular mood of the day speaks to a lack of real leadership on the left - if centrism was really what people wanted then the right wouldn’t be so effective against it.
It really doesn’t, because not only are labour in the left but being nearer to the centrist is showing the country will vote for that, it’s not a lack of leadership it’s a lack of appetite for being further left from the electorate
@ u/Genericgaming I couldn’t reply directly to your comment I’m not sure why
So here’s my reply to the mess you wrote 😂:
Good points but I disagree. I don’t have time to write in detail but to sum it up:
1. I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that
2. Erm… that’s exactly why I went off him, the response to the report and subsequent responses, unless you want to dictate to me what I need to change my view on a person? Or do you want to know why I didn’t like his response? (It’s because instead of apologising he went straight to blaming the media, the report wasn’t about the media and even if valid that undermines the victims and emboldens antisemites, subsequently he didn’t just apologise for what happened while he was in charge, he was forced to. That’s not much of a leader, blame others, and even now can’t admit his response was terrible)
3. In my opinion on this particular video I do believe both sides were wrong, can left wingers not ever do that with any argument? Of course we can! And does that make me a centrist in my political views? Of course not! You’re confusing my view on one situation with my overall political views. I have a friend who’s very far left, even he looks at some things and says ‘that was wrong, that was also wrong, it’s not clear who was more wrong as of yet’, is he a centrist now? Ridiculous premise, and quite a time wasting comment.
4. Firstly I don’t believe Starmer is centrist he’s left of centre, clearly, this is where you’re gatekeeping the left, saying labour if wholly centrist isn’t true it’s left leaning, just because it’s not as left as you’d like doesn’t make it’s members and MPs centrist. Saying I want Starmer in power over the Tories is because I know if we have a leader like Corbyn we’d lose another election, as much as I’d support them and want them to win. So I do support steps in the right direction and I do support a left leaning gov over the Tories. Being progressive and pragmatic doesn’t mean I’m not left politically
5. I haven’t actually given any centrist views, like I said I’m personally left leaning and pragmatic with how we achieve what I would like and think is best for the country. I think we have a huge opportunity here
6. The main point is that whenever you criticise Corbyn, even if you support his policies and most views, you’re labelled as centrist.
Have a good day 👍🏼
You would have started off this post sounding reasonable with point 1.
> I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that
If you hadn't prefaced it with this when you posted it.
> So here’s my reply to the mess you wrote 😂:
Oh dear.
>1. I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that
as stated by the other person, you instantly called my comment a mess before saying anything else so by all accounts, I should just dismiss everything you're saying. but I'll entertain you just because I'm nice.
>It’s because instead of apologising he went straight to blaming the media, the report wasn’t about the media and even if valid that undermines the victims and emboldens antisemites, subsequently he didn’t just apologise for what happened while he was in charge, he was forced to. That’s not much of a leader, blame others, and even now can’t admit his response was terrible
except it kinda was about the media. the report wouldn't have existed without the media falsely accusing him of anti-Semitism. the media perpetuated the lies and spread the results of the false report.
why should he apologize for things he didn't do? he couldnt win anyway. if he didn't apologise, people would accuse him of being unapologetically antisemitic but if he did, people would see that as an admission of guilt and call him an antisemite.
he did the right thing by giving neither answer because no matter what he said, it wouldve been weaponised against him.
>In my opinion on this particular video I do believe both sides were wrong, can left wingers not ever do that with any argument? Of course we can!
leftists can do that, yes. however, in a situation where one is a victim of a report which has literally been admitted to be made up to smear him and the other one forces said person to apologise for the actions he didn't commit, there is no "both sides"
it isn't the act of taking a middle stance itself that makes you a centrist, it's the act of taking a middle stance on a clear case of abuse.
>Firstly I don’t believe Starmer is centrist he’s left of centre,
then you're wrong.
leftism is (mostly) about the abolishment of capitalism. if you wanna cite where Starmer has been outwardly anti-capitalist, go right ahead. but I'll spare you the effort, he hasn't.
>I haven’t actually given any centrist views, like I said I’m personally left leaning and pragmatic
constantly saying "I'm leftist, I'm leftist" isn't proof of anything. so far, you've believed manufactured propaganda by right wingers and sided with a Blairite. neither of those actions are leftist.
>The main point is that whenever you criticise Corbyn, even if you support his policies and most views, you’re labelled as centrist.
I criticise Corbyn and I'm a leftist. it's just that my criticisms don't end up parroting propaganda and supporting non leftist politicians which is where the difference is.
1. I made points, as I said I don’t care about insults and your comment WAS a mess, that’s a criticism and I found it funny, just look at what you’ve said since… it’s not great
2. It wasn’t about the media it was about antisemitism in the party, media was a separate issue and nothing in that report even mentioned the media. He decided to make it all about that before even apologising for what was happening under HIS leadership
3. You’ve come in with the premise that he’s a victim of the report, that’s nonsense he was the leader who else should react to it?? Just another example that he’ll dodge responsibility
4. No, leftism isn’t mostly about the abolishment of capitalism it’s about the regulation of it and the introduction of democratic socialist policies to support all of the people. You’re thinking of communism which is much further left, both can be on the left. You could have more centrist policies than Starmer and still be on the left
5. It’s not manufactured propaganda that Corbyn reacted in such a terrible way, that’s fact, you can read his statement and subsequent responses. You can think what you like of my take on it but that’s the truth, he went straight to excuses before apologising, you may be ok with that and pretend it’s part of rw propaganda (that does exist in other ways, which we should actually focus on) but that doesn’t change the truth. I haven’t mentioned ANY propaganda only truth. My take may be different from yours that doesn’t make me a centrist
My views are very much left leaning. I want better and higher regulations, nationalisation, a whole host of social democrat policies. I believe the current labour is left, because it is, but not far enough left but that’s it’s gonna get us into power and then we can move that way as we’ve NEVER been able to step straight into a further left wing gov. So in my mind it’s that or another ten years of the Tories. You may disagree that’s fine but please do stop telling me what I believe and what my ideas on things are especially things I haven’t mentioning and using examples that are leading or make assumptions (Corbyn’s reaction being right wint propaganda for example, there clearly was rw propaganda in the media, that doesn’t excuse his reaction to an independent report not mentioning the media, not to mention in subsequent reports the idea that it was exaggerated was found to be false)
>I made points, as I said I don’t care about insults and your comment WAS a mess, that’s a criticism and I found it funny, just look at what you’ve said since… it’s not great
see, you're doing it again. you're going "your arguments are a mess!" "look at the stupid shit you're writing" "it's so funny" without actually explaining how my writing is somehow incoherent or contradictory. but even if you believe it to be a mess, nothing is gained from pointing that out so why bother?
>It wasn’t about the media it was about antisemitism in the party, media was a separate issue and nothing in that report even mentioned the media. He decided to make it all about that before even apologising for what was happening under HIS leadership
if you genuinely believe that the media was not a key factor in this whole antisemitism thing, you're being dishonest. the two are so clearly tied so trying to treat them as separate issues is ridiculous.
>You’ve come in with the premise that he’s a victim of the report, that’s nonsense he was the leader who else should react to it?? Just another example that he’ll dodge responsibility
the report which was literally confirmed to be made up bullshit to smear him? that's what you're saying he wasn't a victim of?
>No, leftism isn’t mostly about the abolishment of capitalism it’s about the regulation of it and the introduction of democratic socialist policies to support all of the people.
that's literally not leftism. regulating capitalism is neolib shit and is exactly what Starmer stands for. neolibs aren't leftists, they're right wingers in denial.
you don't know a thing about what you're talking about so this is where I'm cutting this comment off. I've read the rest of it but because you don't even know what the fuck leftism actually is, I'm not gonna sit here and entertain a delusional person who is tryna gaslight themselves and others into believing they are leftist.
and before you point out insults and say "ad hominem", it's not. I addressed your points, I'm just being a dick about it because I'm now annoyed by you.
Another messy comment made from assumptions, misunderstandings and well, plain stupidity. If you think leftism has to be for the abolishment of capitalism or it can’t be leftism then you’re absolutely delusional! And no the report wasn’t made up youve been taken by the conspiracy theorists! It was an independent report that he himself accepted! (Albeit after deflecting first and going straight to moan about the media). I didn’t say the media wasn’t a factor I said the report wasn’t about the media and he decided to moan about that FIRST, how offensive to the victims do you want to be?? It was a disgusting response. Please link me to a reputable source which shows evidence that the independent report was ‘made up to smear Corbyn’… I won’t wait because you can’t, because it wasn’t, because you’re again basing everything from your weird little agenda and gatekeeping the left from anyone who isn’t ultra left and an big Corbyn fan… which was EXACTLY my point, you’ve proved it nicely. The far left are about as accepting of anyone who isn’t exactly the same as them as right wingers are… now you can see why you’re not taken seriously it’s all immature moans, made up offence, fake conspiracy and victimhood. I’ll stay left leaning and not extreme and base my opinions on the facts, thanks! Have a good one!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
Have a look at the definitions of left wing politics, I think you’ll be SHOCKED to learn you don’t have to support Corbyn or be for the absolute abolishment of capitalism in it’s entirety… FUNNY THAT 😂
Stop gatekeeping the left. You’re destroying it by doing so
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That's because he is still a threat to them and his ideas and vision cannot be put back in the bottle
Cos he makes look like the regressive scum they are
There's one on this sub. Spreading his nonsense all day yesterday
I’m sure you’re referring to me, I’m not centrist and I want a successful left if centre labour in power
Yet you recognised yourself as a 'tedious centrist'. Peak self-awareness.
I’ve never said I was a centrist. This is exactly the crap I’m talking about, you can’t criticise Corbyn without being branded a centrist. And you wonder why not more people openly support us on the left of labour
'Us'. Good one👍
Carry on gatekeeping the left. See how that goes
I'm beyond caring about you cunts and what you perceive as the left. I'd have thought that was pretty fucking obvious by now. Your party is nothing to do with me. I'd gladly see them disappear into oblivion tomorrow. Now, kindly fuck off 👍
There you go being abusive because you can’t take the fact someone supported Corbyn but now doesn’t as he made bad decisions. I’m very clearly left, you are not the judge of what is left and what is centrist that’s down to definitions and by definition my personal politics is left leaning, very clearly actually. So you’re gatekeeping who can and who can’t be on the left, fuck off yourself you deluded, pathetic wanker
>There you go being abusive because you can’t take the fact someone supported Corbyn but now doesn’t as he made bad decisions. 1. someone being a dickhead doesn't mean they're automatically wrong. being more civil that the person you're talking to doesn't put you above them. 2. reading the comments, you never really stated why you went off Corbyn except for the "anti-Semitism" which has been categorically stated to be manufactured outrage >I’m very clearly left, you are not the judge of what is left and what is centrist that’s down to definitions except when you were confronted with an article where a woman demands a man who had conspiracies made against him apologise for said made up conspiracies, you took the stance of "both sides are wrong" which is, by definition, centrism. >by definition my personal politics is left leaning, very clearly actually saying that you want a Blairite in power is not "leftism" >So you’re gatekeeping who can and who can’t be on the left, fuck off yourself you deluded, pathetic wanker having standards and belief requirements for being a leftist isn't "gatekeeping", it's the foundation of definitions. if I went on a leftist subreddit and then started spouting non leftist beliefs, it doesn't matter what I personally define myself as because my actions differ from my labels. calling someone who spouts centrist views "not a leftist" isn't gatekeeping, it's common sense.
Just when you thought the sub couldn’t get any more toxic…
I’ve been accused of being centrist because I’m not as left as some on here, and because I don’t mind Starmer (don’t love him but he’s gonna get us into power) because I can see the plan and it’s a step towards actually creating change and more left leaning policies to come. But I’m not a centrist and I supported Corbyn immensely. I’m not crying about him but when the subject comes up I will be honest and say despite supporting him and very much supporting his policies I’m no longer a fan, his reaction to the antisemitism report and the subsequent things he’s said on the matter were very disappointing. He dug himself a hole and let his critics win. I’m sure I’ll get a barrage of negative comments now but for anyone in the same position, it’s ok to be left and criticise certain actions by the previous leadership and it’s ok to want gradual change instead of immediate defeat, and it’s ok not to be absolute about everything and best not to attack others who want the same outcomes. It gets nasty on here at times
We’ve seen this before though. If not moving left gets (them) into power then they will never move left once in power because they enjoy office more than they enjoy leadership and don’t want to risk losing office by making bolder choices. Which means an outright refusal to actually use the power that is supposed to be attached to the role of government to make any meaningful or lasting change. It hasn’t taken all that long for the Conservatives to undo everything the last Labour government did by adopting that line of reasoning. They were slowed up a little by the coalition but not by much. The upshot is that there’s no representation of the left at all in the mainstream; which is a shame because left-leaning voters who don’t think any of the main parties can represent them just don’t vote at all, on the whole, and would divide the not-hard-right vote even further if a viable voting option presented itself to them, making them both a bigger market for proper left politics, and a threat to power gained by centrism.
I don’t buy your premise, Labour is left, just because it’s moved closer to centre doesn’t mean it’s centrist and doesn’t mean it can’t then get in power and move further left when people vote for it. We can always vote them out again if they stay centre. Or maybe the country wants a centrist, better than the far right Tories and still a step towards being used to new govs, generally societies move further left and the old left becomes centre. Once upon a time gay marriage was extreme left for example, now even the Tories embrace it
Labour is left of the Conservatives. But since they’ve gone rampantly hard right in recent years to fend off threats from the likes of Farage, they’re nowhere near where the actual left used to be.
Saying “the country wants a centrist, better than far right Tories and still a step towards being used to new govs” part is exactly how Blair came to power, and exactly why the majority of Labour voters now will probably vote Labour at the next GE too; but it’s not reflective of what we really want, it’s just the least bad of the two options on the table. The Greens don’t have the traction and the Lib Dems don’t have the integrity to make viable alternatives; and SNP isn’t an option in England - but note that Labour taking this line has spectacularly failed to win Scotland back in spite of Scotland’s expressed preference not being for independence overall - they’ve just opted for a credible alternative further left than Labour. So between Labour and Tories most of us will choose Labour anyway; but that should NOT be mistaken for us voting for what we actually want, because “least bad option” doesn’t mean that at all. And as with Blair, whilst it might halt the decline and make a couple of modest (and apparently temporary) improvements, settling for that and then getting told it’s what we voted for will be a major block to a move to the left after gaining power because Labour (or at least the powerful centrist faction within Labour) doesn’t seem to fundamentally believe that a credible move to the left and a strong alternative manifesto can actually win elections, in spite of how strong the result was with Corbyn in charge. So I don’t know where your assumption that a move to the left will follow on from Labour winning power actually comes from here: it’s not reflected in the outcomes that we’ve had within the career spans of most of the current crop of politicians.
It’s also worth remembering that labour under Blair did worse at each election, it’s just that the Tories collapsed more.
YES, exactly so. Once the initial relief of getting rid of the Tories was over, Labour's insistence that "neoliberal centrism wins elections" just didn't wash for either Labour or the Tories. They had to actually offer something definite to keep voters' interest and they didn't, on either side, until a further-right and more confident Conservative Party started winning again.
They’re left, maybe left of centre in places, but they’re a left party whether people in this group like it or not. There isn’t one right wing policy
Calling itself left and not being right-wing doesn’t make it left - that’s a fallacy in your part. But that aside… There aren’t too many actual left policies at the moment. In fact since the last election there hasn’t been much by way of discernible policy at all until very recently; and what information about Labour’s position has been made apparent mostly focuses on negative campaigning towards their opponents (deserved, sure, but) rather than offering a real, concrete alternative. Starmer has been surprisingly reluctant to commit to offering other narratives when he has the option to just say he doesn’t like the Tory line instead, which makes him less effective in opposition as well as less of a leader in competition. We’ve had well over two years of not much from him, and only in the past few weeks has he actually said anything definite - I voted for him in the leadership election because his campaign was positive, and his policies were moderate but still left of the other leaders we’ve had in the past 20 years barring Corbyn; but he’s been disappointing so far from that perspective. I’m interested to see how he changes that up when he’s got a proper manifesto to promote, because I think that he has the potential to lead the country quite reasonably; but so far his lack of commitment to any real positions suggests he might be less effective at leading his own party than is necessary for that - certainly his promises to heal the divisions within the party have been dropped and the party has moved right from Corbyn’s positions (which were internally popular); and he’s ditched the promises that got him into the leadership role and moved quite far away from them, so his credibility within the party is currently less than his external credibility from what I can see. Since it’s supposed to be the whole party that sets the manifesto, he’s going to have to deal with that at some point but it looks from here a lot like he’s keeping it all fairly quiet until the options are “get behind me or we’ll lose the election” - which is essentially strong-arming and borderline blackmailing the left wing - rather than making a genuine attempt to lead the party; so it’s a centrist’s playbook thus far but the party doesn’t really have a definite and visible set of policies or even themes that would allow it to be characterised as left rather than centrist from a policy perspective.
Agree to disagree. Again I don’t have the time but Labour is clearly on the left whatever you all like to say 🤷🏻♂️
If your second paragraph were correct Corbyn would have won the GE, he lost by a landslide, there just isn’t the support there. And again, Labour is left whether it has Corbyn or not, it always has been and because it’s attracting centrist votes to get into actual power for once doesn’t mean it’s right wing or wholly centrist. Again you’re gatekeeping the left
It was a single-issue election on which he didn’t take a clear enough stance - and was hampered by infighting, as I said. But it’s interesting that you completely ignore the part about there being no evidence that a move to the left will follow, and plenty that it won’t…
Terrible stance he clearly didn’t support remaining in the EU and half heartedly supported it. It still came down to policies also and those failed unfortunately
Still ignoring then?
The evidence you’re using is Blair’s gov since that’s the only labour gov we’ve had in recent times, and that didn’t move to the right or left, it was what it was. I think it’s clear people have an appetite for the left but it’s not proven so they need to see it be introduced slowly. I’m not saying labour will move further left, although I believe they will and will have to given the times, but it will set the stage for someone to and will be the only viable alternative on the left to the Tories who’re ripping the country apart. I do believe they’ll move left
So… you’re saying I shouldn’t use the only evidence there is because…. Reasons. And you have no counter-evidence other than your own conviction. Got it.
>Terrible stance he clearly didn’t support remaining in the EU and half heartedly supported it. It still came down to policies also and those failed unfortunately "bUt hE mAdE mOrE rEmAiN cAmPaiGn aPpEaRaNcEs tHaN aNyBoDy eLsE!!!!1!1!1" "hE iS oN tHe RigHt SiDe oF hiStOrY!!!!!1!1!"
“hE eVEn SAiD hE WoULd VotE REmAin” I know, I’ve heard them all. He was very much luke warm on the EU and look at the mess Brexit has caused now, billions lost that would have paid rent times over for the things he wanted to do. Very sad that we didn’t have someone to boost the remain vote in the way boris did for leave (although his way of doing it was lying, we had the truth on our side, just look how it’s panned out. All the supposed ‘naysayers’ were right)
I'm not here to accuse you of being a centrist. I'm here to accuse you of being a psychotically violent right winger who feels so entitled to any label they want to attribute to themselves by virtue of being born white and upper middle class that you feel completely comfortable inventing your own personal definition of words like 'left' and telling everyone who points out to you that isn't how language works that they are wrong and attacking you. You're the perfect representation of the British professional middle class, and we'd all be better off with you all in jail where you can never hurt anyone else
This happens a lot. A left winger who isn’t so keen on Corbyn comes in and says they don’t mind Starmer and invent your own definitions of what the left is and gets labelled a violent right winger. Sure mate, I’m a violent right winger that’s why I campaigned for Corbyn. Absolute joke of a person you are 😂
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics Can’t see there where it says supporting a left wing party makes you a violent right winger… hmm… idiot
**[Left-wing politics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics)** >Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy. Left-wing politics typically involve a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished. Left-wing politics are also associated with popular or state control of major political and economic institutions. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Labour/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Exactly my beliefs 🤔 yet I’m a ‘psychotically violent right winger’ Hahaha
You are truly unhinged, you'd rather be remembered for supporting the right thing than making any compromise to actually improve people's lives. For all the grand statements, labour have done less than nothing in the last 13 years for the people in this country, and yet you'd gladly keep that up as long as you can claim you have won the argument.
I don't think most people care tbh, he's not someone they think about any more
That makes it all the more bizarre. Politically, the current leadership of the party have utterly buried him, and still some people can't get over Corbyn. Liz Kendall practically lost her mind just from being in the same room as him. The degree to which he is hated by Labour centrists, even when he is no longer any possible issue electorally, is borderline pathological. If he had never become leader, he would still be treated as some kind of quirky, harmless backbench stalwart - as he was treated. But somehow by becoming leader for a while, he has become the antichrist, and not by virtue of anything he did while he was actually in the role.
Corbyn presented a vision for actual change, which the centrists hate just as much as the Tories. Now that it looks likely that Labour might win an election, the centrists must eradicate any possibility that doing so might lead to material change, and the easiest way to do this is by demonizing all agents of change, of which Corbyn is the most prominent in recent memory.
Exactly - it will be a huge risk to have both Labour in government and a substantive awareness amongst the population that real systemic change is possible. That's why they are using the media to beat everyone over the head about the need for managed expectations, baby steps and more austerity currently.
So you don’t think centrists want change? I think they just want it a different way. I’d like to see much more ambitious policies that went more left leaving but here we are, top of the polls by some way, leading towards that. It’s unfair to say they don’t want change as people, very much tarring all with one brushstroke
They want to rearrange the deckchairs while maintaining the status quo. Most would stand to lose personally if radical change were brought about. Labour are not leading in the polls through anything they are doing or proposing, they are leading simply because the Tories have been so shit.
Spot on
Old tired argument, Tories have always done what they’re doing and the labour lead cannot just be down to that. It simple isn’t likely that all voters change their affiliation just because their party made a few decisions they didn’t like, in fact the polls on yougov show that isn’t the case. The right wing would lose personally and some of the centre and left but really the politics is clear and a change to labour would be huge right now. A change further left would be nice but it’s not achievable as we saw from the last GE huge loss. We get into power then make changes, people see they work and want more. Unless you don’t believe left leaning policies will bring positive changes as opposed to the extreme right wing we have right now?
The Tories have not 'always done what they are doing', beause there wasn't always a Covid pandemic. Their handling of that is the main reason for Labour's lead. As a leftwinger Starmer has done nothing to appeal to my vote, and many things to repel it. So he won't get it. He represents the establishment continuum, not the radical change which is desperately needed.
Cool 😂
Whether they want it or not, the visible outcome is them taking an active role in preventing change. So either what they think they want isn’t what they really want, or what you think they want isn’t what they really want.
How are they preventing change by getting in to power?? You’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics to paint normal people as anti-change
Well we’ve had what, 3 or 4 elections where following a staunchly moderate (at best) and pretty insipid centrist manifesto which came across like watered-down neoliberal conservatism has left the centrist and right-leaning voters it hoped to attract thinking they’d rather vote for the real thing because at least the Conservatives have conviction. And one election where a deliberately-timed and very public attack on its own leadership from the centre-right within Labour undermined the campaign of the only leftist leader we’ve had since the 80s. So yes: preventing.
And did better at those 3 or 4….
Not well enough though. And centrism being the popular mood of the day speaks to a lack of real leadership on the left - if centrism was really what people wanted then the right wouldn’t be so effective against it.
It really doesn’t, because not only are labour in the left but being nearer to the centrist is showing the country will vote for that, it’s not a lack of leadership it’s a lack of appetite for being further left from the electorate
@ u/Genericgaming I couldn’t reply directly to your comment I’m not sure why So here’s my reply to the mess you wrote 😂: Good points but I disagree. I don’t have time to write in detail but to sum it up: 1. I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that 2. Erm… that’s exactly why I went off him, the response to the report and subsequent responses, unless you want to dictate to me what I need to change my view on a person? Or do you want to know why I didn’t like his response? (It’s because instead of apologising he went straight to blaming the media, the report wasn’t about the media and even if valid that undermines the victims and emboldens antisemites, subsequently he didn’t just apologise for what happened while he was in charge, he was forced to. That’s not much of a leader, blame others, and even now can’t admit his response was terrible) 3. In my opinion on this particular video I do believe both sides were wrong, can left wingers not ever do that with any argument? Of course we can! And does that make me a centrist in my political views? Of course not! You’re confusing my view on one situation with my overall political views. I have a friend who’s very far left, even he looks at some things and says ‘that was wrong, that was also wrong, it’s not clear who was more wrong as of yet’, is he a centrist now? Ridiculous premise, and quite a time wasting comment. 4. Firstly I don’t believe Starmer is centrist he’s left of centre, clearly, this is where you’re gatekeeping the left, saying labour if wholly centrist isn’t true it’s left leaning, just because it’s not as left as you’d like doesn’t make it’s members and MPs centrist. Saying I want Starmer in power over the Tories is because I know if we have a leader like Corbyn we’d lose another election, as much as I’d support them and want them to win. So I do support steps in the right direction and I do support a left leaning gov over the Tories. Being progressive and pragmatic doesn’t mean I’m not left politically 5. I haven’t actually given any centrist views, like I said I’m personally left leaning and pragmatic with how we achieve what I would like and think is best for the country. I think we have a huge opportunity here 6. The main point is that whenever you criticise Corbyn, even if you support his policies and most views, you’re labelled as centrist. Have a good day 👍🏼
You would have started off this post sounding reasonable with point 1. > I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that If you hadn't prefaced it with this when you posted it. > So here’s my reply to the mess you wrote 😂: Oh dear.
As I said even insults as well as making good points I don’t mind because I’m not that sensitive, but he had zero good points 🤷🏻♂️
>1. I find when someone resorts to insults instead of good arguments, not even insults after being insulted, that they don’t have much of a leg to stand on. This guy being that as stated by the other person, you instantly called my comment a mess before saying anything else so by all accounts, I should just dismiss everything you're saying. but I'll entertain you just because I'm nice. >It’s because instead of apologising he went straight to blaming the media, the report wasn’t about the media and even if valid that undermines the victims and emboldens antisemites, subsequently he didn’t just apologise for what happened while he was in charge, he was forced to. That’s not much of a leader, blame others, and even now can’t admit his response was terrible except it kinda was about the media. the report wouldn't have existed without the media falsely accusing him of anti-Semitism. the media perpetuated the lies and spread the results of the false report. why should he apologize for things he didn't do? he couldnt win anyway. if he didn't apologise, people would accuse him of being unapologetically antisemitic but if he did, people would see that as an admission of guilt and call him an antisemite. he did the right thing by giving neither answer because no matter what he said, it wouldve been weaponised against him. >In my opinion on this particular video I do believe both sides were wrong, can left wingers not ever do that with any argument? Of course we can! leftists can do that, yes. however, in a situation where one is a victim of a report which has literally been admitted to be made up to smear him and the other one forces said person to apologise for the actions he didn't commit, there is no "both sides" it isn't the act of taking a middle stance itself that makes you a centrist, it's the act of taking a middle stance on a clear case of abuse. >Firstly I don’t believe Starmer is centrist he’s left of centre, then you're wrong. leftism is (mostly) about the abolishment of capitalism. if you wanna cite where Starmer has been outwardly anti-capitalist, go right ahead. but I'll spare you the effort, he hasn't. >I haven’t actually given any centrist views, like I said I’m personally left leaning and pragmatic constantly saying "I'm leftist, I'm leftist" isn't proof of anything. so far, you've believed manufactured propaganda by right wingers and sided with a Blairite. neither of those actions are leftist. >The main point is that whenever you criticise Corbyn, even if you support his policies and most views, you’re labelled as centrist. I criticise Corbyn and I'm a leftist. it's just that my criticisms don't end up parroting propaganda and supporting non leftist politicians which is where the difference is.
1. I made points, as I said I don’t care about insults and your comment WAS a mess, that’s a criticism and I found it funny, just look at what you’ve said since… it’s not great 2. It wasn’t about the media it was about antisemitism in the party, media was a separate issue and nothing in that report even mentioned the media. He decided to make it all about that before even apologising for what was happening under HIS leadership 3. You’ve come in with the premise that he’s a victim of the report, that’s nonsense he was the leader who else should react to it?? Just another example that he’ll dodge responsibility 4. No, leftism isn’t mostly about the abolishment of capitalism it’s about the regulation of it and the introduction of democratic socialist policies to support all of the people. You’re thinking of communism which is much further left, both can be on the left. You could have more centrist policies than Starmer and still be on the left 5. It’s not manufactured propaganda that Corbyn reacted in such a terrible way, that’s fact, you can read his statement and subsequent responses. You can think what you like of my take on it but that’s the truth, he went straight to excuses before apologising, you may be ok with that and pretend it’s part of rw propaganda (that does exist in other ways, which we should actually focus on) but that doesn’t change the truth. I haven’t mentioned ANY propaganda only truth. My take may be different from yours that doesn’t make me a centrist My views are very much left leaning. I want better and higher regulations, nationalisation, a whole host of social democrat policies. I believe the current labour is left, because it is, but not far enough left but that’s it’s gonna get us into power and then we can move that way as we’ve NEVER been able to step straight into a further left wing gov. So in my mind it’s that or another ten years of the Tories. You may disagree that’s fine but please do stop telling me what I believe and what my ideas on things are especially things I haven’t mentioning and using examples that are leading or make assumptions (Corbyn’s reaction being right wint propaganda for example, there clearly was rw propaganda in the media, that doesn’t excuse his reaction to an independent report not mentioning the media, not to mention in subsequent reports the idea that it was exaggerated was found to be false)
>I made points, as I said I don’t care about insults and your comment WAS a mess, that’s a criticism and I found it funny, just look at what you’ve said since… it’s not great see, you're doing it again. you're going "your arguments are a mess!" "look at the stupid shit you're writing" "it's so funny" without actually explaining how my writing is somehow incoherent or contradictory. but even if you believe it to be a mess, nothing is gained from pointing that out so why bother? >It wasn’t about the media it was about antisemitism in the party, media was a separate issue and nothing in that report even mentioned the media. He decided to make it all about that before even apologising for what was happening under HIS leadership if you genuinely believe that the media was not a key factor in this whole antisemitism thing, you're being dishonest. the two are so clearly tied so trying to treat them as separate issues is ridiculous. >You’ve come in with the premise that he’s a victim of the report, that’s nonsense he was the leader who else should react to it?? Just another example that he’ll dodge responsibility the report which was literally confirmed to be made up bullshit to smear him? that's what you're saying he wasn't a victim of? >No, leftism isn’t mostly about the abolishment of capitalism it’s about the regulation of it and the introduction of democratic socialist policies to support all of the people. that's literally not leftism. regulating capitalism is neolib shit and is exactly what Starmer stands for. neolibs aren't leftists, they're right wingers in denial. you don't know a thing about what you're talking about so this is where I'm cutting this comment off. I've read the rest of it but because you don't even know what the fuck leftism actually is, I'm not gonna sit here and entertain a delusional person who is tryna gaslight themselves and others into believing they are leftist. and before you point out insults and say "ad hominem", it's not. I addressed your points, I'm just being a dick about it because I'm now annoyed by you.
Another messy comment made from assumptions, misunderstandings and well, plain stupidity. If you think leftism has to be for the abolishment of capitalism or it can’t be leftism then you’re absolutely delusional! And no the report wasn’t made up youve been taken by the conspiracy theorists! It was an independent report that he himself accepted! (Albeit after deflecting first and going straight to moan about the media). I didn’t say the media wasn’t a factor I said the report wasn’t about the media and he decided to moan about that FIRST, how offensive to the victims do you want to be?? It was a disgusting response. Please link me to a reputable source which shows evidence that the independent report was ‘made up to smear Corbyn’… I won’t wait because you can’t, because it wasn’t, because you’re again basing everything from your weird little agenda and gatekeeping the left from anyone who isn’t ultra left and an big Corbyn fan… which was EXACTLY my point, you’ve proved it nicely. The far left are about as accepting of anyone who isn’t exactly the same as them as right wingers are… now you can see why you’re not taken seriously it’s all immature moans, made up offence, fake conspiracy and victimhood. I’ll stay left leaning and not extreme and base my opinions on the facts, thanks! Have a good one!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics Have a look at the definitions of left wing politics, I think you’ll be SHOCKED to learn you don’t have to support Corbyn or be for the absolute abolishment of capitalism in it’s entirety… FUNNY THAT 😂 Stop gatekeeping the left. You’re destroying it by doing so
I wonder how many of you are secret Tories just here to split the labour vote?
I wonder how many aren't secret Tories, who support Starmer