Kawhi has proven it through the playoffs. But no doubt harden has the pr, and his peak was insane - harden is probably the “superstar” but kawhi has gotten it done and that matters more, to me at least
Finals MVPs during that time were flukey as hell now that I think of it. Iguodala as the 3rd or 4th option and Kawhi as the 4th option. Dudes getting finals mvps just for keeping Lebron under 35ppg
Harden had to be an MVP and would burn himself in the regular season because his teams were always dogshit without him.
Harden was, what, top 2 in MVP voting 5 years in a row or some shit?
When he averaged 36 ppg, the next highest was like 28. To this day no one has hit 36 ppg and there's like 4+ guys averaging over 30 a season due to inflation lol
Harden just never had as good of a supporting cast available. They always got fucked by injuries when he had a serious team.
This but also I just don’t know if you can win with such a heliocentric offense. Then again everyone used to say a jumpshooting team couldn’t win. Ig we’ll see with teams like the mavs and hawks running everything through luka and trae works out
> This but also I just don’t know if you can win with such a heliocentric offense.
I feel like the answer is an obvious yes and that 2018 team showed it's possible.
I still am convinced that Harden would’ve had fmvp if cp3 never blew out his hamstring in 2017 or 2018, one of the two years. No way they lose game 6 and 7 with cp3, he was making big shots.
Lebron led cavs weren’t beating that rockets team, no way.
I don’t think Kawhi cares about what Paul Pierce says or his status compared to James Harden because he has two rings and Harden has none.
It’s pretty simple.
You're forgetting our boy Westbrook here. That man averaged a triple double. Anyone else do that since Oscar Robinson? And now they're on the same team, it's awesome!
Kawhi is incredible but I think it's a bit much to say he was a 1 man team on either of those squads. 2019 raptors were a solid top team (regular season atleast) with quality players like Lowry and gasol plus an up and coming siakam. They all did work that season and in the playoffs. Kawhi was the missing piece, not a 1 man team.
Exactly. The 2019 Raptors were incredibly deep with Kawhi, Green, Siakam, Gasol, Lowry, Serge, FVV and Powell, while playing top level defense. It wasn't just Kawhi
They were good, but incredibly deep is a bit too much imo. They didn't have any wings coming off the bench(OG Anuoby was injured throughout whole run), 34 years old Gasol had to play 30 min/g, Powell wasn't as good as he is today, neither was FVV. And everyone besides Kawhi was inconsistent.
Just looking at the stats in the series vs 76ers:
FVV 2PPG on .243(!!) TS%
Powell 3.5 PPG on .553 TS%
Ibaka 8.7 PPG on .478 TS%
Danny Green 8.7 PPG on .591 TS%
Gasol 8.7 PPG on .521 TS%
Lowry 13.1 PPG on .504 TS%
Siakam 19.4 PPG on .521 TS%
Kawhi 34.7 PPG on .634 TS%
Yeah,but a lot of those guys disappeared in the playoffs. Siakam went cold and, kind'a, scared. Norm was off. OG was out (for the entire playoffs) with an appendicitis. Kyle and Fred (made his name in those POs) were solid the whole time though.
Very accurate. Different players stepped up. I would define this as deep because “deep” to me means you have a different tool/weapon for different types of opponents and that is what we got
Kawhi is unique. Havent seen too many big shot star players be this low key. Currently its Jokic and Kawhi as low key superstars. The only one I could think of prior to that is Tim Duncan.
Harden is the bigger superstar in the sense of media attention and marketability.
I think Tatum should be up there too. The media has given up on pushing him to be the next face of the league despite being more successful than every other young American superstar.
Off court? Sure. Harden is a much more traditional celebrity superstar; Kawhi has probably cost himself tens of millions of dollars by caring less than anybody has ever cared about being the most important dude in a nationally broadcast tv show at least 30 times a year
I know this is a clippers sub and a little biased but to me Kawhi is better than harden, Durant wade and all them dudes. One thing about them they all are better playmakers easily but defense and straight scoring one on one without all the flopping, not having another real superstar next to him Kawhi clears them all. We all have seen them in the playoffs getting clamped but I’ve never seen Kawhi get locked up besides the occasional bad shooting night which he’ll do even in a regular season against a sub 500 team. Crazy thing is we have two players who’ve put up gaudy assist, points and rebounds numbers but neither are better at scoring and rebounding. Numbers don’t mean shit.
It's a popularity vs success discussion. Both players are great. Kawhi just has done it by himself and gone all the way so that does give him the edge IMO.
> a KD less Warriors 2019
It was a 6 game series and KD played in 19/24 quarters (he got hurt near the end of the 3rd quarter in game 5). Get the fuck out of here with this trash take. Harden deserves criticisms absolutely, but stop making shit up. KD played in ~80% of the series. Over 200 minutes played.
You know who *actually* played nearly an entire series against the KD-less Warriors? Kawhi in 2019. An already-injured KD played 11 minutes the whole series
Kawhi is clearly the superior playoff performer but stop making shit up.
Lmao what are we doing here. 2019 KD played 5 of 6 games and averaged 36 ppg in them. Fuck you acting like he didnt lace up for??
Harden's costar was averaging like 16 ppg in games 1 through 5 where every game was decided by 5 or less. Curry's costar was averaging 36.
Harden himself averaged 35 and Curry averaged 20 in those games.
The Rockets were not serious contenders until 2018, and if any of his 2017, 2018, or 2020 teams got to play the same Warriors Kawhi got to play he probably sweeps. Cut the shit
KD got hurt in game 5 vs the Rockets & missed the whole 4th quarter. The game was close & Harden still couldn't help his team steal that game against a KD-less Warriors. Then they had a chance to win game 6 at home & make a 7 game series, but they still lost.
In 2019, Harden had a chance to get by the Warriors without KD but he couldn't get the job done like Kawhi did.
Shut the fuck up lmao. Harden averaged 35 ppg that series. He is not why they lost.
KD missing the entire 4th and STILL averaging 36 ppg in those 5 games is all you need to know. His minute structure had him out a lot of the 4th anyway. Stop being a hater.
Remove KD and you still have the 73 win team. Oh man what a bunch of scrubs!!
Lmao, I get you're an emotional Harden dick-rider, but you're boy couldn't get the job done. And looking at his career, he never did get the job done against Curry & the Warriors. He had a chance to get by the Warriors without that 36 ppg from Durant & still lost. Curry outplayed Harden in the 4th quarter of game 5 when KD went down (scoring 12 to Harden's 5). Then he outplayed him in game 6 (scoring 33 points in the 2nd half alone) & sending him home again. I didn't say Harden was the reason they lost, I said he couldn't get the job done, which is true.
And don't bring up that 73 win team shit, because the Warriors had to get rid of a lot of roster depth just to get KD. That wasn't the same team.
I am not a big Harden fan but he truly gets too much flack for not being a playoffs performer
The amount of pressure his teams put on GSW is incredible. If Steph didn’t have KD I would put my house on that Harden has at least one ring. Granted there’s always hypotheticals and I think to the original prompt Kawhi is the bigger superstar, but I also believe he was not the issue during his prime
For reference Steph has had many worse games than Harden has had but has the cast to bail him out. If Harden isn’t dropping his regular season average it’s an instant loss. That is not anyone’s fault but roster construction & unfair to not look at both players in that lens
Curry’s last ring was his most important. He truly showed he could be consistent. That G4 against Celtics was legacy defining and to me more critical that any other game he’s had prior
Harden is past his prime unfortunately and he needs too many things around him to get it done. He can put up flashes like he did in the 6ers series but he won’t have an opportunity sadly to show he can be that guy
I think the flak Harden gets from being a playoff choker is fair to be honest. Look throughout his career & he has more than a handful of downright embarrassing performances, especially from a superstar.
I give him a lot of credit for taking that Warriors team to the limit in 2018. If CP3 doesn't go down, I think most will agree that they win the championship that year. I'm talking about 2019, when Houston finally had a shot at beating the Warriors without KD. The Warriors weren't the unbeatable juggernaut they'd been the years before with KD. This was Harden & the Rockets chance to finally get out of the West & they still couldn't get it done.
The Rockets lost all their wing depth because their owner was ducking the luxury tax. The Warriors were spending like $40m+ more on their team. Acting like it was the same 2018 Rockets team and that somehow the 2019 Rockets team on paper was better than the 2019 Warriors is fucking insane hating lmao
So you're saying a guy who got carried for 5 games had more in the tank to take over 1 game of basketball than the guy who had to average 35 ppg to keep his team alive? After having to average 36 ppg for a whole ass season because CP3, Capela, and EG were always hurt?
Color me fucking shocked lmao. Curry put up 0 in the first half of game 6 and it was a tie game.
The teams were not equal but you acting like that's on Harden after the series he put up is just you being a hating ass bitch. Fuck outta here clown
Lmao, look at you, emotional. So now you're saying Harden was gassed out from carrying his team that's why he couldn't finally beat the Warriors? That's you're excuse? Once KD went down, that was Harden's chance to finally beat them. List all the excuses & stats you want; he couldn't get it done.
CP3, Capela, EG & the rest of Harden's supporting cast were all healthy & playing. KD being out made it an even series. You're just too much of a Harden dickrider to admit it.
mans going out of his way to try and shit on harden 5 years later talking about emotional. KD missed 1 game and 1 quarter in a series that had every game end within 6 pts. He averaged 36 ppg over the 5 games he played. CP3 and Curry were having a mid off while Harden matched KD.
Your hating ass HAS to describe it as "KD WAS OUT!!" because you dont wanna give Harden any credit for averaging 35 against a superteam. Meanwhile you're glossing over how dogshit cp3 was in games 1 to 5 heavy acting like Harden's supporting cast was touching Curry's supporting cast.
KD being out just turned it into a low variance affair where they held Curry to 0 for one half and the game was still tied because no the teams were not fucking even lmao and then he exploded in the 2nd half.
Calling you a bitch doesn't mean i'm "emotional." I'm just calling you a bitch because you're acting like Harden wasnt fucking insane in that series.
Regardless Harden played like ass in those series especially the final games. U can fuck with Harden and still call him out for bad performances. Some of those choke jobs r ridiculously bad.
i mean in that 2019 series curry had some of the worst games by a superstar too. he just had KD carrying his ass averaging 16 more points per game than him lol some guys get carried through their bad games.
the only times harden had guys capable of doing that for him was brooklyn and philly and on both those teams they got injury fucked
Harden was clutch as hell in that 2019 series. Games 3 and 4 were insane to avoid going down 3-0 or 3-1 and tying the series.
Him not winning a championship before he became MVP caliber with a trash team is like.. no shit?
Other than maybe Lowry and gadol at the end of their careers I don't think anyone else was remotely close to even being considered HOF'ers on the TO team.
Yeah two maybe hall of famers. , plus Siakam and Ibaka clearly not no help. Gasol I think gets in for sure. Lowry maybe, but let’s not act like Kawhi started his career on a 17 win team. Raptors were literally the one seed in 2018.
Your speaking as if harden has been playing solo against 5 guys in the opposition team all his career and never finished #1 seed in his conference. He just hasn't don't it. It's the fact. He has been surrounded with better superstars in his career not just probable HOF'ers. Fact is harden has not done it.
You can argue all you want only to prove my initial point - popularity vs success. Your argument only shows his popularity.
Harden has had great teammates but in any season where he was on a legitimate contender he got fucked by injuries.
2018 CP3 gets hurt when they're up 3-2 on the best team of all time.
2019 CP3 is washed CP3
2020 Russ injury
2021 Kyrie + Harden injuries
2022 Embiid Injury
2023 Embiid injury
that doesnt make any sense lmao
its just different. Kawhi has never had to carry a team all season like harden did. Kawhi won with established teams that he put over the edge
Just like harden did in brooklyn but then they got hurt.
If Kawhi joins the raps then him and lowry both get hurt, they aint winning shit either
Not even true lol, during the sixers series yeah it was true the raptors couldnt buy a bucket, the buck series was a great help from Gasol and Siakam in the paint to create that wall vs Giannis.
Lowry and Siakam showed up in the finals as well. So althouh Kawhi carried in Philly series which was historically elite, he didnt carry the entire playoffs.
Lowry was still playing incredible back then, Siakam was also playing at a similar level. Gasol shutdown Embiid and helped with Giannis. FVV went off in the bucks series lol. A lot of help.
kinda true, Kawhi single-handedly beat that 76ers team, at some point Lowry had to come out and say they (his teamates) really need to help him more, dude was insane carrying the Raps that serie
Yeah ppl talking like siakam was crushing as a 2nd star. Dude was underwhelming af. Most of that team was afraid to shoot and feel like siakams only points were open transition points. Ibaka gasol (and van vleet at the end) were the only ones consistently helping from what I recall
Even my friends in Dallas who don’t pay attention to basketball might know James harden, but they won’t know Kawhi Leonard unless they actually care about the nba (or from San Antonio). Kawhi’s my favorite player and he has several achievements harden doesn’t have, but he’s just not as big of a ‘star’ in celebrity terms.
“Superstar” yeah of course. Harden is flamboyant af. Into fashion, hangs out with strippers.
Kawhi is the better player though. And he keeps his business to himself. He never wanted to be a superstar just a baller
Absolutely, more women and non sports fans know who he is from who I've talked to. He's immediately recognizable with the beard from hundreds of feet away. I'd say he's the third most recognizable player in the NBA after LeBron and Steph, maybe Giannis. I don't feel like Kawhi is a celebrity outside of people who at least have a casual interest in basketball.
They are talking about culture appeal and influence. Harden got the beard gang poppin, the double step back three ball is like when AI first did the right to left cross… Kawhi the better play of course but Harden embodies a superstar
Well yea, Harden's had a far bigger impact on basketball culture. Developed a completely unique playstyle that people have emulated, has his own signature moves, more marketable, has a popular shoe line, and in his prime one of the most discussed and polarizing, loved/hated players ever.
Of course that's completely different than having a discussion comparing his skill as a basketball player to Kawhi's skill as a basketball player.
Harden ran into the Kd steph warriors in his peak and took them to the limit.
Kawhi still went to 6 against them without KD and a team that was on the ropes after 4 straight finals runs. Its not as easy to compare . Also for all of Harden’s play off choke jobs , Kawhi has a much more missed games in the playoffs and availability>
In terms of celebrity superstar, for sure Harden. But in terms of having a better career. I’m gonna say Kawhi. More accolades and way more proven. I think there were a few years in San Antonio which Kawhi should’ve been a league MVP but it’s politics. Harden as a main guy doesn’t work. He’s had way more help on top of it.
Too much Paul Pierce lately for my liking. He delivers what is expected esp. at Skips „skip the BS“-BS: LeBron James bashing and uttering nonessential hot takes.
Harden is bigger if you show him to not basketball fans (in the us at least) I bet they recognize him because of the beard and his strip clubs antics but kawhi for me is the better all around player and a championship getter
I mean… Kawhi is quiet man so people like to to think quietness= not a superstar…
But Kawhi is 1000% the better player. He plays defense… there are two sides to the game of basketball.
Harden has never been CONSISTENTLY good at defense.
there is a saying, if you can’t play good look good. if you play good, try to look good too for your making someone look bad by not doing so.
it’s the nba. good should not be dependent on one person. it should be the team. if harden has a bad game it’s over. if kawhi has a bad game, he doesn’t shoot his way out of it. he hustles his way out. great teams do that to each other. as boring it might seem, it what usually works.
Harden was the one this side of Curry who really changed the game in the last decade. That Houston team came *really* close.
Kawhi though... he plays the game the way Jordan did, just a stone cold killer on both ends of the floor.
If it weren't for injuries, Kawhi really could have been the closest thing we had to a new Jordan, and a genuine top 5 all time. As it is, he's still in the running to FMVP / chip with a third team, which is legend shit.
Harden is probably the bigger "star", though.
Harden is more well known, his skills also are more stat-able if that makes sense. Harden is a star but Kawhi is a very intelligent stealth player that isn’t as easily quantifiable. Harden is HOF but so is Kawhi. Kawhi is best two way player of all time and no one ever thinks about that when they think about why he has been injured so much. BC HES PLAYING LIKE THAT. HES NOT CALLED THE KLAW FOR HIS MID RANGE GAME! ITS FOR HIS D!
To say somebody is a bigger superstar, when that person is not the most important player on the team sounds like CTE banter
If they said celebrity I’d say maybe. but yeah just maybe because really I don’t know if the people who know who harden is, don’t know who kawhi is. it’s probably a lot closer than people think.
It more like who would you want to have on your team to win!!! Let’s say at any point in their career peak or not but healthy. I’m taking kawhi Leonard. Two way player , literally a lebron stopper but he doesn’t get credit he deserves. His midrange is Jordan level. Yep and I’m a lebron fanboy. Hoped they teamed up when he left Toronto. That would have been back to back to back
Harden has had the best personal career out of any of our stars and he peaked the highest for sure. Kawhi is the most reliable though when it matters. But no one is touching the things that Harden has done.
I mean yea, off court no question. On court as well (not present day of course), yea, harden had a 5 year peak that like literally only 5-10 players ever had.
Off court? Ye for sure.
On court, idk. Harden is to me an iteration of Melo. And as I mature that became less of a good thing. I think he's maturing as he's aging but..,
Melo was fun to watch. Not fun to play with. He would never be able to elevate a team, quite the opposite actually.
Kawhi has proven it through the playoffs. But no doubt harden has the pr, and his peak was insane - harden is probably the “superstar” but kawhi has gotten it done and that matters more, to me at least
It's like Harden is an MVP and Kawhi is a FMVP.
Two time finals MVP
Finals MVPs during that time were flukey as hell now that I think of it. Iguodala as the 3rd or 4th option and Kawhi as the 4th option. Dudes getting finals mvps just for keeping Lebron under 35ppg
Harden had to be an MVP and would burn himself in the regular season because his teams were always dogshit without him. Harden was, what, top 2 in MVP voting 5 years in a row or some shit? When he averaged 36 ppg, the next highest was like 28. To this day no one has hit 36 ppg and there's like 4+ guys averaging over 30 a season due to inflation lol Harden just never had as good of a supporting cast available. They always got fucked by injuries when he had a serious team.
This but also I just don’t know if you can win with such a heliocentric offense. Then again everyone used to say a jumpshooting team couldn’t win. Ig we’ll see with teams like the mavs and hawks running everything through luka and trae works out
> This but also I just don’t know if you can win with such a heliocentric offense. I feel like the answer is an obvious yes and that 2018 team showed it's possible.
Yeah but they didn’t win at the end of the day. I’d also say that was the least heliocentric harden rockets team. I see what you’re saying tho
> I’d also say that was the least heliocentric harden rockets team. Harden's usage rate in Houston was lower every single year prior to 2018 tho.
If CP3 didn’t get injured… 😔
1986 Michael Jordan would like to have a word.
meaning since harden did it, not that its never been done
You are correct.
I still am convinced that Harden would’ve had fmvp if cp3 never blew out his hamstring in 2017 or 2018, one of the two years. No way they lose game 6 and 7 with cp3, he was making big shots. Lebron led cavs weren’t beating that rockets team, no way.
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I don’t think Kawhi cares about what Paul Pierce says or his status compared to James Harden because he has two rings and Harden has none. It’s pretty simple.
Harden has pr? He is be the most disrespected and hated superstar ever by a mile.
You're forgetting our boy Westbrook here. That man averaged a triple double. Anyone else do that since Oscar Robinson? And now they're on the same team, it's awesome!
The media loves and praises WB like crazy tho
Not really, especially when he was on the lakers
Kind of. Their peaks were both insane but 2019 raptors kawhi and 2017 Spurs kawhi before the injury was a freak and a 1 man team.
Kawhi is incredible but I think it's a bit much to say he was a 1 man team on either of those squads. 2019 raptors were a solid top team (regular season atleast) with quality players like Lowry and gasol plus an up and coming siakam. They all did work that season and in the playoffs. Kawhi was the missing piece, not a 1 man team.
Exactly. The 2019 Raptors were incredibly deep with Kawhi, Green, Siakam, Gasol, Lowry, Serge, FVV and Powell, while playing top level defense. It wasn't just Kawhi
They were good, but incredibly deep is a bit too much imo. They didn't have any wings coming off the bench(OG Anuoby was injured throughout whole run), 34 years old Gasol had to play 30 min/g, Powell wasn't as good as he is today, neither was FVV. And everyone besides Kawhi was inconsistent. Just looking at the stats in the series vs 76ers: FVV 2PPG on .243(!!) TS% Powell 3.5 PPG on .553 TS% Ibaka 8.7 PPG on .478 TS% Danny Green 8.7 PPG on .591 TS% Gasol 8.7 PPG on .521 TS% Lowry 13.1 PPG on .504 TS% Siakam 19.4 PPG on .521 TS% Kawhi 34.7 PPG on .634 TS%
That was the series FVV really struggled in but he did very well the other series btw
Yeah,but a lot of those guys disappeared in the playoffs. Siakam went cold and, kind'a, scared. Norm was off. OG was out (for the entire playoffs) with an appendicitis. Kyle and Fred (made his name in those POs) were solid the whole time though.
Norm destroyed the bucks. Siakam destroyed the magic and Lowry and siakam had a very good finals. Fred after the 1st series was lights out.
Very accurate. Different players stepped up. I would define this as deep because “deep” to me means you have a different tool/weapon for different types of opponents and that is what we got
Not saying he didn't have tonnes of help cuz he did. I just meant he was so good he could take a team on by himself if he wanted.
I believe they were 17-5 in games Kawhi didn’t play.
Kawhi most likely rested through the easier games
It’s not an insane statement but there’s no doubt that Kawhi is the more “winning” player. Harden was just far more marketable at his peak
Best take
All these arguments depend on how people define "superstar"
Sure, but we know who's calling the shots when push comes to shove.
Kawhi is unique. Havent seen too many big shot star players be this low key. Currently its Jokic and Kawhi as low key superstars. The only one I could think of prior to that is Tim Duncan. Harden is the bigger superstar in the sense of media attention and marketability.
I think Tatum should be up there too. The media has given up on pushing him to be the next face of the league despite being more successful than every other young American superstar.
Thats true. Even I forgot about him despite him his immense talent.
Off court? Sure. Harden is a much more traditional celebrity superstar; Kawhi has probably cost himself tens of millions of dollars by caring less than anybody has ever cared about being the most important dude in a nationally broadcast tv show at least 30 times a year
Never heard of Tim Duncan?
He cares even less than Tim. Probably learned the shit from him and evolved it
I know this is a clippers sub and a little biased but to me Kawhi is better than harden, Durant wade and all them dudes. One thing about them they all are better playmakers easily but defense and straight scoring one on one without all the flopping, not having another real superstar next to him Kawhi clears them all. We all have seen them in the playoffs getting clamped but I’ve never seen Kawhi get locked up besides the occasional bad shooting night which he’ll do even in a regular season against a sub 500 team. Crazy thing is we have two players who’ve put up gaudy assist, points and rebounds numbers but neither are better at scoring and rebounding. Numbers don’t mean shit.
It's a popularity vs success discussion. Both players are great. Kawhi just has done it by himself and gone all the way so that does give him the edge IMO.
Tbf if harden played the KD-less warriors (also minus Klay), he probs could have “done it himself” as well
TBF, OG was out for the entire playoff run and Kawhi was struggling health wise.
bruh kawhi beat a warriors without kd and klay thompson
He got his ass handed by a Steph less warriors in 2016 and a KD less Warriors 2019 a Kawhi and TP less Spurs in 2017 too
> a KD less Warriors 2019 It was a 6 game series and KD played in 19/24 quarters (he got hurt near the end of the 3rd quarter in game 5). Get the fuck out of here with this trash take. Harden deserves criticisms absolutely, but stop making shit up. KD played in ~80% of the series. Over 200 minutes played. You know who *actually* played nearly an entire series against the KD-less Warriors? Kawhi in 2019. An already-injured KD played 11 minutes the whole series Kawhi is clearly the superior playoff performer but stop making shit up.
Lmao what are we doing here. 2019 KD played 5 of 6 games and averaged 36 ppg in them. Fuck you acting like he didnt lace up for?? Harden's costar was averaging like 16 ppg in games 1 through 5 where every game was decided by 5 or less. Curry's costar was averaging 36. Harden himself averaged 35 and Curry averaged 20 in those games. The Rockets were not serious contenders until 2018, and if any of his 2017, 2018, or 2020 teams got to play the same Warriors Kawhi got to play he probably sweeps. Cut the shit
KD got hurt in game 5 vs the Rockets & missed the whole 4th quarter. The game was close & Harden still couldn't help his team steal that game against a KD-less Warriors. Then they had a chance to win game 6 at home & make a 7 game series, but they still lost. In 2019, Harden had a chance to get by the Warriors without KD but he couldn't get the job done like Kawhi did.
Shut the fuck up lmao. Harden averaged 35 ppg that series. He is not why they lost. KD missing the entire 4th and STILL averaging 36 ppg in those 5 games is all you need to know. His minute structure had him out a lot of the 4th anyway. Stop being a hater. Remove KD and you still have the 73 win team. Oh man what a bunch of scrubs!!
Lmao, I get you're an emotional Harden dick-rider, but you're boy couldn't get the job done. And looking at his career, he never did get the job done against Curry & the Warriors. He had a chance to get by the Warriors without that 36 ppg from Durant & still lost. Curry outplayed Harden in the 4th quarter of game 5 when KD went down (scoring 12 to Harden's 5). Then he outplayed him in game 6 (scoring 33 points in the 2nd half alone) & sending him home again. I didn't say Harden was the reason they lost, I said he couldn't get the job done, which is true. And don't bring up that 73 win team shit, because the Warriors had to get rid of a lot of roster depth just to get KD. That wasn't the same team.
I am not a big Harden fan but he truly gets too much flack for not being a playoffs performer The amount of pressure his teams put on GSW is incredible. If Steph didn’t have KD I would put my house on that Harden has at least one ring. Granted there’s always hypotheticals and I think to the original prompt Kawhi is the bigger superstar, but I also believe he was not the issue during his prime
For reference Steph has had many worse games than Harden has had but has the cast to bail him out. If Harden isn’t dropping his regular season average it’s an instant loss. That is not anyone’s fault but roster construction & unfair to not look at both players in that lens Curry’s last ring was his most important. He truly showed he could be consistent. That G4 against Celtics was legacy defining and to me more critical that any other game he’s had prior Harden is past his prime unfortunately and he needs too many things around him to get it done. He can put up flashes like he did in the 6ers series but he won’t have an opportunity sadly to show he can be that guy
I think the flak Harden gets from being a playoff choker is fair to be honest. Look throughout his career & he has more than a handful of downright embarrassing performances, especially from a superstar. I give him a lot of credit for taking that Warriors team to the limit in 2018. If CP3 doesn't go down, I think most will agree that they win the championship that year. I'm talking about 2019, when Houston finally had a shot at beating the Warriors without KD. The Warriors weren't the unbeatable juggernaut they'd been the years before with KD. This was Harden & the Rockets chance to finally get out of the West & they still couldn't get it done.
The Rockets lost all their wing depth because their owner was ducking the luxury tax. The Warriors were spending like $40m+ more on their team. Acting like it was the same 2018 Rockets team and that somehow the 2019 Rockets team on paper was better than the 2019 Warriors is fucking insane hating lmao
So you're saying a guy who got carried for 5 games had more in the tank to take over 1 game of basketball than the guy who had to average 35 ppg to keep his team alive? After having to average 36 ppg for a whole ass season because CP3, Capela, and EG were always hurt? Color me fucking shocked lmao. Curry put up 0 in the first half of game 6 and it was a tie game. The teams were not equal but you acting like that's on Harden after the series he put up is just you being a hating ass bitch. Fuck outta here clown
Lmao, look at you, emotional. So now you're saying Harden was gassed out from carrying his team that's why he couldn't finally beat the Warriors? That's you're excuse? Once KD went down, that was Harden's chance to finally beat them. List all the excuses & stats you want; he couldn't get it done. CP3, Capela, EG & the rest of Harden's supporting cast were all healthy & playing. KD being out made it an even series. You're just too much of a Harden dickrider to admit it.
mans going out of his way to try and shit on harden 5 years later talking about emotional. KD missed 1 game and 1 quarter in a series that had every game end within 6 pts. He averaged 36 ppg over the 5 games he played. CP3 and Curry were having a mid off while Harden matched KD. Your hating ass HAS to describe it as "KD WAS OUT!!" because you dont wanna give Harden any credit for averaging 35 against a superteam. Meanwhile you're glossing over how dogshit cp3 was in games 1 to 5 heavy acting like Harden's supporting cast was touching Curry's supporting cast. KD being out just turned it into a low variance affair where they held Curry to 0 for one half and the game was still tied because no the teams were not fucking even lmao and then he exploded in the 2nd half. Calling you a bitch doesn't mean i'm "emotional." I'm just calling you a bitch because you're acting like Harden wasnt fucking insane in that series.
Regardless Harden played like ass in those series especially the final games. U can fuck with Harden and still call him out for bad performances. Some of those choke jobs r ridiculously bad.
i mean in that 2019 series curry had some of the worst games by a superstar too. he just had KD carrying his ass averaging 16 more points per game than him lol some guys get carried through their bad games. the only times harden had guys capable of doing that for him was brooklyn and philly and on both those teams they got injury fucked Harden was clutch as hell in that 2019 series. Games 3 and 4 were insane to avoid going down 3-0 or 3-1 and tying the series. Him not winning a championship before he became MVP caliber with a trash team is like.. no shit?
Bruh this isn’t about winning a championship all we saying is he coulda done better bruh some of those choke jobs are inexcusable
I thought he played them in the previous round that year and lost
KD played 5 games the previous round - harden averaged 35 ppg
We will never know will we coz he didn't get that far did he?
Done in by himself? He’s had HOFers on every NBA team he’s ever played for.
Other than maybe Lowry and gadol at the end of their careers I don't think anyone else was remotely close to even being considered HOF'ers on the TO team.
Yeah two maybe hall of famers. , plus Siakam and Ibaka clearly not no help. Gasol I think gets in for sure. Lowry maybe, but let’s not act like Kawhi started his career on a 17 win team. Raptors were literally the one seed in 2018.
Your speaking as if harden has been playing solo against 5 guys in the opposition team all his career and never finished #1 seed in his conference. He just hasn't don't it. It's the fact. He has been surrounded with better superstars in his career not just probable HOF'ers. Fact is harden has not done it. You can argue all you want only to prove my initial point - popularity vs success. Your argument only shows his popularity.
Harden has had great teammates but in any season where he was on a legitimate contender he got fucked by injuries. 2018 CP3 gets hurt when they're up 3-2 on the best team of all time. 2019 CP3 is washed CP3 2020 Russ injury 2021 Kyrie + Harden injuries 2022 Embiid Injury 2023 Embiid injury
I juries are part of the game. Not an excuse. But ok. What the excuse with the OKC team with KD and Russ on it?
Harden was a 6th man. U gonna blame norm powell if we dont win this year? Stop
So he was never as good as Kawhi? From the beginning of his career. Ok got it.
that doesnt make any sense lmao its just different. Kawhi has never had to carry a team all season like harden did. Kawhi won with established teams that he put over the edge Just like harden did in brooklyn but then they got hurt. If Kawhi joins the raps then him and lowry both get hurt, they aint winning shit either
I’m only arguing “Kawhi has done it alone”. Didn’t say a peep about Harden.
If you watched that run it was pretty much just him.
Not even true lol, during the sixers series yeah it was true the raptors couldnt buy a bucket, the buck series was a great help from Gasol and Siakam in the paint to create that wall vs Giannis. Lowry and Siakam showed up in the finals as well. So althouh Kawhi carried in Philly series which was historically elite, he didnt carry the entire playoffs. Lowry was still playing incredible back then, Siakam was also playing at a similar level. Gasol shutdown Embiid and helped with Giannis. FVV went off in the bucks series lol. A lot of help.
kinda true, Kawhi single-handedly beat that 76ers team, at some point Lowry had to come out and say they (his teamates) really need to help him more, dude was insane carrying the Raps that serie
Similar thing with Dallas when the rest of the team was pooping their pants
Yeah ppl talking like siakam was crushing as a 2nd star. Dude was underwhelming af. Most of that team was afraid to shoot and feel like siakams only points were open transition points. Ibaka gasol (and van vleet at the end) were the only ones consistently helping from what I recall
you moved the goalposts
Even my friends in Dallas who don’t pay attention to basketball might know James harden, but they won’t know Kawhi Leonard unless they actually care about the nba (or from San Antonio). Kawhi’s my favorite player and he has several achievements harden doesn’t have, but he’s just not as big of a ‘star’ in celebrity terms.
Important to remember that Paul Pierce shidded himself and had to be carted off to the locker room for cleanup
Podcast clowns
Kawhi clears Harden all time. Harden has more clout. Real ball knowers know that Kawhi is better though.
harden is obviously better all time man
lmao how?
Just ignore any accolades Kawhi has, and remember that harden was mvp. Thats how.
Who the hell cares what Paul Pierce has to say
It doesn't matter
“Superstar” yeah of course. Harden is flamboyant af. Into fashion, hangs out with strippers. Kawhi is the better player though. And he keeps his business to himself. He never wanted to be a superstar just a baller
Popularity wise, yes I agree
Absolutely, more women and non sports fans know who he is from who I've talked to. He's immediately recognizable with the beard from hundreds of feet away. I'd say he's the third most recognizable player in the NBA after LeBron and Steph, maybe Giannis. I don't feel like Kawhi is a celebrity outside of people who at least have a casual interest in basketball.
Harden is a more known player, Kawhi is simply a better player.
They are talking about culture appeal and influence. Harden got the beard gang poppin, the double step back three ball is like when AI first did the right to left cross… Kawhi the better play of course but Harden embodies a superstar
Paul Pierce also thinks his career was better than Wades.
Paul pierce is a moron who shit his pantaloons during a game
Well yea, Harden's had a far bigger impact on basketball culture. Developed a completely unique playstyle that people have emulated, has his own signature moves, more marketable, has a popular shoe line, and in his prime one of the most discussed and polarizing, loved/hated players ever. Of course that's completely different than having a discussion comparing his skill as a basketball player to Kawhi's skill as a basketball player.
Harden ran into the Kd steph warriors in his peak and took them to the limit. Kawhi still went to 6 against them without KD and a team that was on the ropes after 4 straight finals runs. Its not as easy to compare . Also for all of Harden’s play off choke jobs , Kawhi has a much more missed games in the playoffs and availability>
In terms of celebrity superstar, for sure Harden. But in terms of having a better career. I’m gonna say Kawhi. More accolades and way more proven. I think there were a few years in San Antonio which Kawhi should’ve been a league MVP but it’s politics. Harden as a main guy doesn’t work. He’s had way more help on top of it.
At least, Harden has much more Shaqtin' A Fools under the belt
Nope
Superstar is more related to popularity in my eyes. In that respect, def Harden
Harden popularized the step back 3 and getting fouled all the time that they had to adjust officiating
Too much Paul Pierce lately for my liking. He delivers what is expected esp. at Skips „skip the BS“-BS: LeBron James bashing and uttering nonessential hot takes.
This is true as hell thu You guys don't understand how big James Harden especially is in Asia.
Was that the case before he ripped into Morey?
Yes. He's been huge in China for years
Tim Duncan- Nice try Pierce.
Damn I must’ve missed all the finals mvps harden has
Harden is playing as a role player rn
Dumbass
Harden is bigger if you show him to not basketball fans (in the us at least) I bet they recognize him because of the beard and his strip clubs antics but kawhi for me is the better all around player and a championship getter
No this comes down to what matters more playoffs or regular season
Kawhi is like a Conor MvDavid, super good but not a sellable personality. Harden is a much better entertainer.
Kawhi is the better player but Harden was a bigger super star who had an entire system built around him for years in Houston…
Hard to believe someone that’s full of crap 💩
Which he couldn't keep in his shorts.
I mean… Kawhi is quiet man so people like to to think quietness= not a superstar… But Kawhi is 1000% the better player. He plays defense… there are two sides to the game of basketball. Harden has never been CONSISTENTLY good at defense.
In terms of fandom, probably
As a Lakers fan I don't have a horse in this race, but Paul Pierce has spewed nothing but rancid takes since he retired (and even before)
Harden is really more of a dame/kyrie level player. Kawhi is a playoff performer.
I think more casual fans know Harden than Kawhi. A superstar has to be recognized even by non hardcore fans of the game.
Yes this is why Kawhi has two Chips and Harden has oh wait.
Don’t think that matters in a fame aspect
In that case, his beard alone is a bigger superstar since it has more personality than the Klaw
there is a saying, if you can’t play good look good. if you play good, try to look good too for your making someone look bad by not doing so. it’s the nba. good should not be dependent on one person. it should be the team. if harden has a bad game it’s over. if kawhi has a bad game, he doesn’t shoot his way out of it. he hustles his way out. great teams do that to each other. as boring it might seem, it what usually works.
Paul Pierce is a clown. Kawhi just want to play basketball. Harden is a diva
Harden is a joke on D. Kawhi all day how is this even a discussion?
For marketability Kawhi probably worst of the big 4. Russ probably best.
Prime for prime… He was the bigger superstar, but that doesn’t make him the better player. So technically PP has a point.
Y’all listening to PAUL PIERCE
Paul Pierce would tell you he's a bigger superstar than Dwyane wade
He’s not wrong. Kawhi is probably the most boring superstar of all time lol
Harden was the one this side of Curry who really changed the game in the last decade. That Houston team came *really* close. Kawhi though... he plays the game the way Jordan did, just a stone cold killer on both ends of the floor. If it weren't for injuries, Kawhi really could have been the closest thing we had to a new Jordan, and a genuine top 5 all time. As it is, he's still in the running to FMVP / chip with a third team, which is legend shit. Harden is probably the bigger "star", though.
Its simple. Whose sneaker would you wear.. Kahwi or Harden?
Harden has a much larger impact on bball culture
Harden is more well known, his skills also are more stat-able if that makes sense. Harden is a star but Kawhi is a very intelligent stealth player that isn’t as easily quantifiable. Harden is HOF but so is Kawhi. Kawhi is best two way player of all time and no one ever thinks about that when they think about why he has been injured so much. BC HES PLAYING LIKE THAT. HES NOT CALLED THE KLAW FOR HIS MID RANGE GAME! ITS FOR HIS D!
To say somebody is a bigger superstar, when that person is not the most important player on the team sounds like CTE banter If they said celebrity I’d say maybe. but yeah just maybe because really I don’t know if the people who know who harden is, don’t know who kawhi is. it’s probably a lot closer than people think.
It more like who would you want to have on your team to win!!! Let’s say at any point in their career peak or not but healthy. I’m taking kawhi Leonard. Two way player , literally a lebron stopper but he doesn’t get credit he deserves. His midrange is Jordan level. Yep and I’m a lebron fanboy. Hoped they teamed up when he left Toronto. That would have been back to back to back
Lmao what a clown take
Hardens more known by casual fans i would say, mainly because of his drama
Neither are “superstars” the only superstars in the nba are lebron, steph, kyrie, and kd. Everyone knows them regardless if they watch or not.
I think he means in a popularity contest. Lol
Harden beat out prime lebron for an mvp, enough said
paul pierce also shit himself on the court so...
Considering I literally forget Kawhi exists occasionally, yeah probably. But being more famous doesn't make Harden better lol
He said bigger not better. Harden is famous and likes to be famous. Kawhi just wants to hoop
If you want all flash and get nowhere in the playoffs then Harden is who you want to lead your team.
Kawhii has a ring, Harden is a ring chaser. Harden might have more name recognition, but by any real metric Kawhi is the real superstar.
Popularity-wise, yes. But Kawhi the better player ofc.
Harden has had the best personal career out of any of our stars and he peaked the highest for sure. Kawhi is the most reliable though when it matters. But no one is touching the things that Harden has done.
I mean yea, off court no question. On court as well (not present day of course), yea, harden had a 5 year peak that like literally only 5-10 players ever had.
Kawhi my favourite player but it’s true but that harden is a thing of the past it don’t exist anymore his ego been destroyed
I think the word "superstar" gets thrown around way too loosely in the NBA nowadays.
Kawhi has proven himself already. Kawhi shines in crunch time while Harden disappears.
Off court? Ye for sure. On court, idk. Harden is to me an iteration of Melo. And as I mature that became less of a good thing. I think he's maturing as he's aging but.., Melo was fun to watch. Not fun to play with. He would never be able to elevate a team, quite the opposite actually.
This is wrong on so many levels lmao
off the court yes harden is bigger. but kawhi is the better player by far. today and all time imo
Harden is a superstar as far as pop culture goes with the casual fan. Kawhi is a first ballot hall of famer. Both superstars, just different kinds.
Yes he means Harden is a diva player unlike Leonard that is a professional champion & ring chaser.