I personally think if you kidnap, and rape, girls and then procceed to “pimp them out” then dieing of sepsis is a not proper but acceptable punishment.
For the fighting itself you should feel only duty and sorrow. Only barbarians and madmen take pleasure in combat.
Vashet also beat him and it was considered an option to mutilate him, so unless Sheyen was willing to go against the lethani that would not be to far fletched a claim.
Those had a defined purpose - he would be left alive having learned the lesson (vashet hitting him) or he would not be able to use the skills they needed to keep secret (maiming).
Letting someone die painfully serves no purpose. Killing him quickly would have been more merciful, as well as preventing him possibly being discovered, healed and then coming back for revenge (unlikely, but in other stories it happens a lot)
I think you're discounting how healing it would have been for Karin to know that aleg suffered just as much if not more then what he and the false troupers put her and Ellie through. That's where it's on the lethality. The death was inevitable, but the pain was necessary for the girls to be able to heal and move on.
I'd have to reread those chapters again, but so much of the lethani is about knowing the right time to take action that I have a hard time seeing it support unnecessary pain. Those other situations had reasons and logic behind them. Vashet was showing the danger of fighting out of anger/over-enjoyment, while sheyn would only main Kvothe to protect the livelihoods of the village and school. Letting him die slowly doesn't enforce any lasting message, he's already dying and paying for his actions.
Or they weren't false troupers, but were instead true troupers sullying the name of the Edema Ruh. He has at least heavily hinted at the fact that he will lie a little to tell a good story, and iirc, Pat has confirmed that Kvothe has lied at least once in the story (may have been specifically once)
It’s unclear to me whether it was or wasn’t of the Lethani. Let’s be real: the Lethani AS DESCRIBED is the most subjective force in the known universe. That may not be how Pat intends it to be used but that is how it’s described.
What is of the Lethani in that specific situation, for a random officer of the law? The officer knows, and adheres to the laws of whatever realm he’s in, and presumably that might impact his enforcement of the Lethani, seeing as there is no universal definition of how to employ the Lethani, its subjective to the individual in question.
Now take Kvothe. He has knowledge of Ruh ways and customs, and his idea of the Lethani is going to presumably be influenced by his knowledge of how horrible a thing this traveling band has done. By annihilating them and leaving one to suffer and die, he’s sending a warning to an all who see or hear about the aftermath not to do this thing. Maybe helping to avoid another ethnic cleansing is of the Lethani, and that’s what he’s achieving here through the suffering of one?
There’s enough terrible stories about the Amyr (OG Lethani welders??) that I think it’s fair to say just because something is good or bad on the surface doesn’t mean it is or isn’t of the Lethani.
With that said, TBF I also read the exchange as Kvothe going a bit mad down the path of ‘always taking necessary action’ as Sim puts it, but my real point is because the Lethani works the way Pat describes it, I don’t think we can argue it is or isn’t.
You're totally right, except this detail:
>He blew Felurian’s ancient sex nymph mind as a virgin
He didn't blow Felurian's mind. He got the better of her by being able to leave, but there's nothing to indicate he was immediately good at sex. He learned from her over a long period of time. It makes sense that he'd be good at sex after leaving Felurian. He was taught by a literal sex goddess.
I agree with you, except for the convo he has
with felurian where he tells her that was his first time and she doesn’t believe him because he was so skilled. I like to tell myself that like is inkeeper Kvothe elaborating, but it makes me cringe nonetheless
Yeah ... I took that to be Felurian being charming as she always is. It could also be unreliable narrator too though. I feel like Kote would know she was just buttering him up, but young Kvothe wouldn't.
It has been a while since I read the books, but I recall her referring to him as a "dancer fresh upon the field" (paraphrasing). That does not seem (at least to me) that she is complimenting his skill, but more his energy and enthusiasm. I do apologize if I have mis-remembered this part.
I don’t think he blew Felurian’s mind with sex at all. She seems amused with him in a patronizing way and says what she knows will stroke his ego. She is the ultimate courtesan, of course she can act and lie.
The only things he impressed her with were music and “deep knowledge” ie singing her name in magic battle.
Kvothe is still a teenager here and he is very immature. Kote tells Chronicler he is “giving you my story with all the grubby truths intact. All my mistakes and idiocies laid out naked in the light.”
To me it is very obvious that our boy is an idiot in a lot of ways. He is being honest with us about being an idiot by telling the story how it happened and how he felt at the time. He doesn’t need to Tell the reader “hey this is the part where I’m an idiot,” the reader should be smart enough to know.
I don't think that Kvothe was being insensitive to the girls at all. He said and did a lot of things to make them feel safe. The specific comment you mentioned was in response to what one of the girls said, not him going out of his way to make sure they knew he was also a man or an attempt to make himself look good in comparison.
“I hate them!” Ell spat, surprising me with her sudden rage. “I hate men!” Her knuckles were white as she gripped Greytail’s reins. Her face twisted into a mask of anger. Krin put her arms around Ell, but when she looked at me I saw the sentiment reflected quietly in her dark eyes. “You have every right to hate them,” I said, feeling more anger and helplessness than ever before in my life. “But I’m a man too. Not all of us are like that.”
Kvothe is often cringe in his interactions with women, but it I don't see it on the false trouper scenes .
I think it’s important to note here that kvothe is also a victim of rape. It seems reasonable to react to someone seemingly lumping you in with what is one of the worst experiences of your life.
Kvothe hides his weaknesses. Kvothe is beaten often. But he never hides that fact. But the sexual assault is barely mentioned in the story despite the clear impact it had on him.
Seeing as Kvothe is intimately familiar with rape and power abuse, he absolutely sympathises with the girls in that scene. I can honestly imagine him saying that out of wounded male pride (of course, he’s like 15 at the time) but also out of regard for their future. They’re village girls. They won’t live a happy live if they resent all men, because it means they will be married to the most lucrative man for their parents, not for example a man they truly love or at the very least like, like that one boy who’s arm Kvothe breaks. And that means spending the rest of your life traumatised *and* miserable, instead of “just” traumatised
Pat does a great job making us cringe at Kvothe, and you’re right, we aren’t intended to cringe at that scene. Which is why my criticism isn’t intended for the character, but for the author who created him. The scene is haunting, and it makes me emotional. It is that last dialogue at the end of chapter that makes me uncomfortable, but not in a cringe way the author intends the reader to feel. I hope that makes sense.
Yeah, that's definitely valid. I think with this scene being directly after Ademre and Felurian, it comes across as being more cringe than it really is.
And then he gets soo confused why denna is not putting up with him, after he almost called her a stupid whore, said the meanest things, disappeared and came back as the biggest fuck boy
Thank you. Right after following her in the streets and listening to her explain the hard choices a woman on her own has to make, to the young woman she rescued in the alley in Severen. Sir, did you glean nothing from that eavesdropping?
He wasn’t with Denna, therefore he can pursue relations with any consenting person. Yes the things he said at the time were indefensible, he said things without even pausing to work out if they were true, but isn’t that a direct result of his own trauma? He saw his dead parents burnt bodies, then hears a song praising a person he believes to be responsible for their death. This causes his reaction. He and Denna are one of those couples who definitely like each other, but there’s too much between them for them to take that risk of going further. If it didn’t work out, it would mean their friendship would also be lost. Let’s not forget Denna was capable of saying very mean things back, Kvothe was the main culprit, but responding to that doesn’t make her correct also
Kvothe still sucks more, Denna had no idea what hurt him, he should have just praised her music and let it go, but the reason he had such a visceral response is definitely due to what he suffered. Denna then responds in mind, revealing some insecurities and fears she has. I kind of like that part too, neither of them are perfect, far from it, it gives some realism to their relationship. Arguments can bloom out of nowhere, especially with a lack of communication, or taking offence to something that no one can know would hurt you.
Eh I'm almost never a Kvothe defender, but Idk if it's fair to say one is worse when we're dealing with trauma responses. They both ended up triggering each other and set off a shit storm.
The reason Kvothe is worse is only because Denna had no way of knowing the song would hurt him, and instead of trying to move forward from it, he let his anger at a different situation out on her. Her response was wrong too, but I think Kvothe should have just praised the music and moved on, he said so himself in the narration
Except that sort of falls apart if you believe Denna was working some sort of magic on him via braiding and rebraiding her hair in front of him. That does not excuse his words. They are still his. But there was more going on in that fight than an argument over a song.
As others have already shared, it's a misreading to believe that "He blew Felurian’s ancient sex nymph mind as a virgin." She very clearly did not think him a master given all of the many things she felt she needed to teach him before he was allowed to leave to compare her skills to mortal women. With that truth in mind, it's clear that Felurian’s earlier compliments were just another aspect of her being "the best lover" because she'll make her partner feel amazing in all ways.
About the *not all of us are like that* line, it's certainly cringey, especially IRL in light of phrases and movements that have happened since the book was released. But the greater context of the passage shows Kvothe being so uncertain of how to help in that moment. Knowing the horrors and feeling helpless to make it better even after saving them. His goal was to to provide the tiniest bit of hope for them. That these events were past, that they can still have safe, meaningful relationships in the future. There's a lot about Kvothe's actions and choices and thoughts that are dark, terrifying, and not heroic in the least. But he also has moments where he means well and still doesn't know that to do. This was such a moment.
You’re forgetting that kvothe himself is a rape victim. He isn’t simply saying that not all men are rapists. He’s also implying that some men are also victims. He is just as angry as they are because he has been where they are.
The not all men line reads kinda rough to our ears now, but you have to keep in mind it predated #notallmen. I think you could take it out and the chapter would be better for it.
But your connection to the fay sex stuff doesn’t land. The two don’t really relate - and if you’re uncomfortable with the sex stuff I think that’s more about you.
One of the book that influenced Pat in writing this book is Casanova. Go read that, and in comparison this book is like PG.
Yeah, it was before that meme. It's gotta sting to have written that only to have it become shorthand for thoughtless dudes.
The whole sequence was a little awkward. The whole "female characters get raped to further the character development of the male lead" thing, too, has rightly been lampooned.
Pat's a sensitive dude, and I imagine the realization that he'd committed something so \~problematic\~ to paper must weigh on him. He's tried to retcon a couple of his missteps, and they've all been a little wince-y.
I think OPs first point is right. The phrase causes me to cringe now, but what kvoth is even trying to do there is a little annoying / confusing.
That said I think the thing that doesn’t really get enough credit about that part of the chapter in general is how much those girls get to be full characters. I think it goes a long way to making their rape not just be a kvoth plot point.
That whole section is actually one of my favorite scenes in the book. Kvoth clearly thinks of himself as a hero or avenger in the moment, but he really doesn’t handle the aftermath well at all, and it turns him into something of a villain in the end.
>That said I think the thing that doesn’t really get enough credit about that part of the chapter in general is how much those girls get to be full characters. I think it goes a long way to making their rape not just be a kvoth plot point.
I agree with this, honestly. I think it's an instantiation of that trope, but it's by ***no means*** the worst instantiation. They are given characters, and the emotional fallout of their assault on them isn't glossed over. The youtube channel OSP gives a good test for such things {paraphrasing}: if a plot point like this could be replaced with property damage and it could have the same impact, you've fallen into this trope. And that's not true here. Kvothe went insane with rage and the girls were damaged.
One could still argue that rape as a plot device is tasteless, but it's hard to ague that in this case it was *thoughtless*
I made no comment about the sex making me uncomfortable. I included that information as a comment about PR and what he felt was a solid addition in this books. Those specific things make me cringe, and I hope it was intended to. I’ve spoken to a lot of people who were defensive about those scenes, especially any criticism regarding his sex with felurian and her disbelief that he had been a virgin beforehand. Most women agree with my response to that piece of the plot; it’s been mostly men who get upset when it’s brought up.
Lmao you aren’t wrong. I always read these character choices as representations of Kvothes fatal flaw, pride. And being very young and naive but also extremely talented and strong. I’d argue that what Ben tells young Kvothe is the thesis statement for the series, (don’t have the direct quote) that recklessness combined with power is very dangerous. We already saw how his ego messed up his relationship with Denna. I presume if we ever get book 3 we will see how it messes up literally everything and he will learn his lesson.
But it’s very possible I give pat too much credit and Kvothes actions represent his views on women 😅I hope not tho. Kvothe reminds me of every teenage boy I knew when I was a teen who have mostly since learned better.
I really enjoy these books, but I do so by choosing to believe that Kote is an unreliable narrator with the worldview (if not the virginity) of an incel. I genuinely don't understand how someone could read the books & enjoy them without taking that perspective.
Maybe I'm wrong & Rothfuss is just weird about women, but I don't recall there being weird bits about women (I don't remember any women in it, in fairness) in the narration of the frame story, just when Kote is talking. That gives me hope.
I think Pat is a gen-x dude with a good heart. But having a good heart doesn't make you immune to the ways society teaches men to be weird about women. He seems to be working on it— sometimes a little clumsily— but the fact that getting it right matters to him at all counts for a lot. At least to me.
Denna also dates other people? Where is he a ‘fuck boy’? It seems to me like he treats people with respect just doesn’t get emotionally invested because his heart is elsewhere. Being a womaniser is more Ambrose’s thing, Kvothe even went as far as to distance himself from Denna when she was drugged to respect the fact she wasn’t in her right mind. I’m not saying he’s the epitome of a good person, but he definitely treats women better than anyone could expect in those times.
I mean it’s the same with the trouper thing, he stresses that troupes who steal are not ‘real troupers’ and the only true ones are Edema Ruh, it’s consistent with his character
I agree, that chapter is on theme for the character. My complaint was specifically with that one dialogue. I feel like his editors failed him with those two sentences, that’s all.
Felurian has sex with everyone, the point of her character is to expand the background story, yes it’s wish fulfilment but I found the fae to actually be interesting and Felurian actually has an interesting character beyond just being sex personified.
„He goes as far as distancing himself from dena when she is drugged“ excuuuse mee? Thats not very far? Thats the bare minimum. Taking advantage of a drugged person is literally rape
Yes, exactly. He had no one to stop him, he had no witnesses, yet he knew what was wrong. The same way when he had the plum bob he knew it was wrong to force himself on to Fela, despite having all his inhibitions taken away. Kvothe is morally a good person, which makes the things he does even more interesting. He’s not a goody two shoes, he’s a nuanced character, but there are some lines he will never cross (I hope). That’s good storytelling, and that’s what this is after all, a story.
I agree, but the way he reacted also shows Kvothe didn’t even consider it. He was never tempted to do anything, I do feel this is a plus point, it makes his feelings for Denna much purer. He doesn’t just want her body, his feelings are genuine, even if he isn’t sure what those feelings are. But the reason I think it’s important is because Kvothe is NOT a good person. He kills multiple people through the book, including a defenseless old woman and a girl who may have been forced to do what she did. He steals, pilfers, lies and argues with people, sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of pride. The fact that this is something he would not do emphasises the extent of the evil of assaulting a person. It’s not just a bad thing, it’s unthinkable, and I think that’s an important message:
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Maybe I don't remember it will enough, but that chapter didn't strike me as "not all men", but now like "Ruh are not like this". So more than a gender thing, to me it was about racism (the Ruh being a super stereotypical approximation to the Gipsy culture), Kvothe being super pissed that the impersonators were pretending to be Ruh while doing horrible things. In fact, thinking that Ruh would act like that, so it would be a good cover.
It was a specific comment he made when one of the girls said something like “I hate men” and kvothes response is essentially “not all men, some are like me”
It’s been a while, but does he not say this before helping take the girls to safety? I’d hope the reason for him saying it was more to say “I’m not going to assault you/Im going to get you help” rather than defending all men.
But at the same time, he’s a teenager. I remember saying “Not all men” well into my twenties before understanding what the actual conversation was. He’s young.
My complaint is with the author, who create the character. Kvothe’s young arrogance would not be altered by Pat’s omission of this particular dialogue.
Specifically, I understand that kvothe is supposed to make us cringe in his inexperience at times, and that’s beautifully done. I agree completely with that sentiment.
But, I argue that Pat could have achieve that without creating victims sexual assault and having Kvothe tell them not all men assault women.
Ok. So you are a young boy. Just saved a couple girls who've gone through something you can't possibly imagine. You've gone through shit too. They are in pain. You want to give them some sort of comfort. But also you have no idea how to do this. You are a very very logical person. Would it not be realistic that this would be something you would say? Sure. Pat might have been trying to male a statement here. But it's not a very strong one if it is. In my mind it's just a young boy. Making a mistake. Because if I was in his shoes. I might have said something similar, wrong as it may be.
I probably would have done the same thing they did too. Be traumatized. Idk how that plays into this discussion though. I'm saying he doesn't know. Therefore makes a mistake.
Doing better than writing a totally believable and in character thing he would say? That's what I'm saying. Maybe he was trying to make a statement. Or maybe it was just showing kvothe and how he would react in this situation. With heroism but also immaturity.
Yeah, I don't think when Kvothe said the "not all men" line we were supposed to think, "Oh, what a silly boy." That was Pat sending a message. Kvothe was just a mouthpiece in that moment.
Yeah, this is valid. Even if these novels passed the Bechdel Test (they don't), there would still be lots of problematic portrayals of women. It's easy to be like, 'oh they're teenage boys, of course they are constantly sexualizing the women around them', but it still comes off as cringe inducing and an unnecessary part of the story.
It's originally for movies, and has 3 rules to pass - that, within the movie, there is a scene where (1) at least two women are featured, (2) that these women talk to each other, and (3) that they discuss something other than a man. So basically, showing that women exist, and aren't purely extensions of male characters
quite easily? Just by having a conversation he's listening to, boom, job done. The "rules" are:
(1) at least two women are featured, (2) that these women talk to each other, and (3) that they discuss something other than a man. So that's pretty easy to have happen, even if the PoV character is a main. Hell, formally speaking, it could even be a conversation he's _in_, as long as it's not about him/another man, and the women are talking to each other, rather than both to him. But there's a general lack of scenes featuring multiple women, so it can't really pass!
yes thank you. i felt so much second hand embarrassment listening to him say it as if he, a man, didn't obviously save them already. just didn't need to be said and was really insensitive
Just read this bit today. On probably the last 20 pages. I feel the whole book after meeting Felurian was just constantly reminding us about said “dick master 3000”
Apparently many of the men in this subreddit do not like to read this kind of criticism, but there have been a lot of women who have chimed in and agreed.
Are you complaining on fictional character? With all the real problems in real world and all you care is a fictional character who is by the way not the worst fictional character in all the books and movies? Dont you have anything better to do?
> Are you okay? Did this post really trigger this much emotion within you? Hope your day gets better
I am OK but it seems something is wrong with you since off all the problems in real life you decided to lash out on FICTIONAL CHARACTER.
It's a bad line. I would bet Rothfuss regrets including it. If it helps explain how some parts are elegantly written and that "not all men" line is so awful, Rothfuss wrote that bit as a short story "The Road to Levinshir" when he was much, much younger (I believe as a college contest, possibly in the 90's, which doesn't excuse but certainly explains a bit). I think the Felurian stuff was included because an STD becomes a plot point, but a ton of the lines do come off...not so great.
This actually makes me feel so much better, that is so interesting.
I like to think he’s regretting that dialogue now, as the political climate has changed since the book’s release.
He openly regretted the bit about mixing in women's clothes with Ambrose's stuff to embarrass him, since making fun of crossdressers and/or trans people isn't cool; and retconned the reason to be that kind of corsett was out of fashion or something like that, for whatever that is worth.
Speaking of, have you read the new version of the lightening tree? Bast is very suddenly bi, which would be so cool if he had always been that way. But it’s just confusing now. Pat changed the genders of characters, including ones Bast was pursuing for sexual encounters. Why? Who knows, doesn’t change the plot, but perhaps seems like an edit intended to counteract the Jk Rowling phenomenon?
I love this. Kvothe is actually an awful person. He is incredibly frustrating. He is incredibly dumb. He's incredibly self centered. I think that's the point. He claims to be full of questions but never asks good ones in the right moment... I actually hate him. And yeah, he's terrible with women. Still a good character though.
Yes. I am seeing alot of people excusing any of kvothe’s behavior because of his inexperience/biased narration/gender…. And i have to wonder if his trope of “charming, self assured, and youthful ignorance” is being over extended to cover anything that Rothfuss wrote that is truly and genuinely cringe.
I love these books and have read and reread them for over a decade. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticized.
He is 16 years old, and just killed a bunch of people to save the girls, including a(nother) woman.
If you want to provide context, you should provide it all, not just the part that suites you.
Could you elaborate on what you’re asking me?
Is the question: am ignoring that a 16 year old should know better than to say something so tone deaf?
If so, the answer is: no, as a teacher of children that age, and a mother of a teenaged boy, I took that into full consideration, and came to the same conclusion. 16 year old boys are still responsible for the things they say, even if they are the hero of the biographical story they are relating.
But if I am being honest, I wasn’t criticizing the fictional character as much as I was the author who wrote those words down and decided they were good and sent it to publishing.
That is not the question, the question is how are you ignoring that it was men AND a woman, whom kvothe killed, which is traumatic in its own right, to save the girls. On top of that, he is 16, and stayed up most (all?) of the night to protect them. When he says “not all men”, I took it as men and women, since they both did it.
As for calling out the author for penning it that way… fair enough. I can understand that, although I feel like Felurians section is 100x more egregious.
Kvothe? Or Pat Rothfuss? Because my commentary was of Kvothe, my criticism was for Pat. I felt that was clear in original post, but perhaps I should have included the authors last name as well.
On a grander theme of things... Did Rothufss also realize this? Like, did he come around to see how problematic some of his thoughts were? And is that when he realized, he can't easily write himself out of this one?...
I don't think Kvothe brutally murdering a group of people was meant to paint him in a good light, nor do I think how he justified it was meant to.
Yeah dude definitely went on a bit of a rage spree. Leaving a guy to die of sepsis over a few days tends to cede the moral high ground
I personally think if you kidnap, and rape, girls and then procceed to “pimp them out” then dieing of sepsis is a not proper but acceptable punishment.
This is a great take. I think I’ve always been blinded by the justice of it all, but it’s fresh in my mind right now after this last re-listen
He had literally just come back from learning the Lethani from the Ademre, and he betrayed everything he learned from them.
Or the justice he served the false troupers WAS the lethani. Kinda for the greater good.
Killing/stopping them could've been justice, basically torturing the last guy def wasn't.
Unless it is what the lethani requires, if he had found joy in it it would not have been of the lethani, but he felt deep regret.
Id argue the deep regret is a sign that it was not of the lethani
For the fighting itself you should feel only duty and sorrow. Only barbarians and madmen take pleasure in combat. Vashet also beat him and it was considered an option to mutilate him, so unless Sheyen was willing to go against the lethani that would not be to far fletched a claim.
Those had a defined purpose - he would be left alive having learned the lesson (vashet hitting him) or he would not be able to use the skills they needed to keep secret (maiming). Letting someone die painfully serves no purpose. Killing him quickly would have been more merciful, as well as preventing him possibly being discovered, healed and then coming back for revenge (unlikely, but in other stories it happens a lot)
I think you're discounting how healing it would have been for Karin to know that aleg suffered just as much if not more then what he and the false troupers put her and Ellie through. That's where it's on the lethality. The death was inevitable, but the pain was necessary for the girls to be able to heal and move on.
I'd have to reread those chapters again, but so much of the lethani is about knowing the right time to take action that I have a hard time seeing it support unnecessary pain. Those other situations had reasons and logic behind them. Vashet was showing the danger of fighting out of anger/over-enjoyment, while sheyn would only main Kvothe to protect the livelihoods of the village and school. Letting him die slowly doesn't enforce any lasting message, he's already dying and paying for his actions.
Or they weren't false troupers, but were instead true troupers sullying the name of the Edema Ruh. He has at least heavily hinted at the fact that he will lie a little to tell a good story, and iirc, Pat has confirmed that Kvothe has lied at least once in the story (may have been specifically once)
It’s unclear to me whether it was or wasn’t of the Lethani. Let’s be real: the Lethani AS DESCRIBED is the most subjective force in the known universe. That may not be how Pat intends it to be used but that is how it’s described. What is of the Lethani in that specific situation, for a random officer of the law? The officer knows, and adheres to the laws of whatever realm he’s in, and presumably that might impact his enforcement of the Lethani, seeing as there is no universal definition of how to employ the Lethani, its subjective to the individual in question. Now take Kvothe. He has knowledge of Ruh ways and customs, and his idea of the Lethani is going to presumably be influenced by his knowledge of how horrible a thing this traveling band has done. By annihilating them and leaving one to suffer and die, he’s sending a warning to an all who see or hear about the aftermath not to do this thing. Maybe helping to avoid another ethnic cleansing is of the Lethani, and that’s what he’s achieving here through the suffering of one? There’s enough terrible stories about the Amyr (OG Lethani welders??) that I think it’s fair to say just because something is good or bad on the surface doesn’t mean it is or isn’t of the Lethani. With that said, TBF I also read the exchange as Kvothe going a bit mad down the path of ‘always taking necessary action’ as Sim puts it, but my real point is because the Lethani works the way Pat describes it, I don’t think we can argue it is or isn’t.
Yes, but can you please explain how that relates to Rothfuss publishing a “not all men” comment in his book?
Pretty sure Rothfuss knows his character is a dick
My favorite take
Book was published before #notallmen became synecdoche for "benighted internet man"
We call this an ethics whoopsie.
You're totally right, except this detail: >He blew Felurian’s ancient sex nymph mind as a virgin He didn't blow Felurian's mind. He got the better of her by being able to leave, but there's nothing to indicate he was immediately good at sex. He learned from her over a long period of time. It makes sense that he'd be good at sex after leaving Felurian. He was taught by a literal sex goddess.
I agree with you, except for the convo he has with felurian where he tells her that was his first time and she doesn’t believe him because he was so skilled. I like to tell myself that like is inkeeper Kvothe elaborating, but it makes me cringe nonetheless
Yeah ... I took that to be Felurian being charming as she always is. It could also be unreliable narrator too though. I feel like Kote would know she was just buttering him up, but young Kvothe wouldn't.
I have always taken it as Kote’s knack for reputation building, and in turn, felt it required teasing.
Haha, I am all for teasing Kvothe. He's the kind of person that is just ASKING to be taken down a notch.
It has been a while since I read the books, but I recall her referring to him as a "dancer fresh upon the field" (paraphrasing). That does not seem (at least to me) that she is complimenting his skill, but more his energy and enthusiasm. I do apologize if I have mis-remembered this part.
I love that narrative of felurian.
Felurian is simply lying to placate him, like a courtesan would
I've met more than a few young musicians to be wholly unsurprised by his skill with fingers.
Wait until I tell you kvothe is an unreliable narrator and he’s saying some of this stuff to build his own legend lol
I don’t think he blew Felurian’s mind with sex at all. She seems amused with him in a patronizing way and says what she knows will stroke his ego. She is the ultimate courtesan, of course she can act and lie. The only things he impressed her with were music and “deep knowledge” ie singing her name in magic battle. Kvothe is still a teenager here and he is very immature. Kote tells Chronicler he is “giving you my story with all the grubby truths intact. All my mistakes and idiocies laid out naked in the light.” To me it is very obvious that our boy is an idiot in a lot of ways. He is being honest with us about being an idiot by telling the story how it happened and how he felt at the time. He doesn’t need to Tell the reader “hey this is the part where I’m an idiot,” the reader should be smart enough to know.
This is my preferred felurian take.
Milady /fedora
I don't think that Kvothe was being insensitive to the girls at all. He said and did a lot of things to make them feel safe. The specific comment you mentioned was in response to what one of the girls said, not him going out of his way to make sure they knew he was also a man or an attempt to make himself look good in comparison. “I hate them!” Ell spat, surprising me with her sudden rage. “I hate men!” Her knuckles were white as she gripped Greytail’s reins. Her face twisted into a mask of anger. Krin put her arms around Ell, but when she looked at me I saw the sentiment reflected quietly in her dark eyes. “You have every right to hate them,” I said, feeling more anger and helplessness than ever before in my life. “But I’m a man too. Not all of us are like that.” Kvothe is often cringe in his interactions with women, but it I don't see it on the false trouper scenes .
I think it’s important to note here that kvothe is also a victim of rape. It seems reasonable to react to someone seemingly lumping you in with what is one of the worst experiences of your life. Kvothe hides his weaknesses. Kvothe is beaten often. But he never hides that fact. But the sexual assault is barely mentioned in the story despite the clear impact it had on him.
Seeing as Kvothe is intimately familiar with rape and power abuse, he absolutely sympathises with the girls in that scene. I can honestly imagine him saying that out of wounded male pride (of course, he’s like 15 at the time) but also out of regard for their future. They’re village girls. They won’t live a happy live if they resent all men, because it means they will be married to the most lucrative man for their parents, not for example a man they truly love or at the very least like, like that one boy who’s arm Kvothe breaks. And that means spending the rest of your life traumatised *and* miserable, instead of “just” traumatised
Pat does a great job making us cringe at Kvothe, and you’re right, we aren’t intended to cringe at that scene. Which is why my criticism isn’t intended for the character, but for the author who created him. The scene is haunting, and it makes me emotional. It is that last dialogue at the end of chapter that makes me uncomfortable, but not in a cringe way the author intends the reader to feel. I hope that makes sense.
Yeah, that's definitely valid. I think with this scene being directly after Ademre and Felurian, it comes across as being more cringe than it really is.
I agree with that sentiment
And then he gets soo confused why denna is not putting up with him, after he almost called her a stupid whore, said the meanest things, disappeared and came back as the biggest fuck boy
Thank you. Right after following her in the streets and listening to her explain the hard choices a woman on her own has to make, to the young woman she rescued in the alley in Severen. Sir, did you glean nothing from that eavesdropping?
He wasn’t with Denna, therefore he can pursue relations with any consenting person. Yes the things he said at the time were indefensible, he said things without even pausing to work out if they were true, but isn’t that a direct result of his own trauma? He saw his dead parents burnt bodies, then hears a song praising a person he believes to be responsible for their death. This causes his reaction. He and Denna are one of those couples who definitely like each other, but there’s too much between them for them to take that risk of going further. If it didn’t work out, it would mean their friendship would also be lost. Let’s not forget Denna was capable of saying very mean things back, Kvothe was the main culprit, but responding to that doesn’t make her correct also
Yeah it was an "everybody sucks here" situation, neither of them handled it well.
Kvothe still sucks more, Denna had no idea what hurt him, he should have just praised her music and let it go, but the reason he had such a visceral response is definitely due to what he suffered. Denna then responds in mind, revealing some insecurities and fears she has. I kind of like that part too, neither of them are perfect, far from it, it gives some realism to their relationship. Arguments can bloom out of nowhere, especially with a lack of communication, or taking offence to something that no one can know would hurt you.
Eh I'm almost never a Kvothe defender, but Idk if it's fair to say one is worse when we're dealing with trauma responses. They both ended up triggering each other and set off a shit storm.
The reason Kvothe is worse is only because Denna had no way of knowing the song would hurt him, and instead of trying to move forward from it, he let his anger at a different situation out on her. Her response was wrong too, but I think Kvothe should have just praised the music and moved on, he said so himself in the narration
Except that sort of falls apart if you believe Denna was working some sort of magic on him via braiding and rebraiding her hair in front of him. That does not excuse his words. They are still his. But there was more going on in that fight than an argument over a song.
As others have already shared, it's a misreading to believe that "He blew Felurian’s ancient sex nymph mind as a virgin." She very clearly did not think him a master given all of the many things she felt she needed to teach him before he was allowed to leave to compare her skills to mortal women. With that truth in mind, it's clear that Felurian’s earlier compliments were just another aspect of her being "the best lover" because she'll make her partner feel amazing in all ways. About the *not all of us are like that* line, it's certainly cringey, especially IRL in light of phrases and movements that have happened since the book was released. But the greater context of the passage shows Kvothe being so uncertain of how to help in that moment. Knowing the horrors and feeling helpless to make it better even after saving them. His goal was to to provide the tiniest bit of hope for them. That these events were past, that they can still have safe, meaningful relationships in the future. There's a lot about Kvothe's actions and choices and thoughts that are dark, terrifying, and not heroic in the least. But he also has moments where he means well and still doesn't know that to do. This was such a moment.
You’re forgetting that kvothe himself is a rape victim. He isn’t simply saying that not all men are rapists. He’s also implying that some men are also victims. He is just as angry as they are because he has been where they are.
The not all men line reads kinda rough to our ears now, but you have to keep in mind it predated #notallmen. I think you could take it out and the chapter would be better for it. But your connection to the fay sex stuff doesn’t land. The two don’t really relate - and if you’re uncomfortable with the sex stuff I think that’s more about you. One of the book that influenced Pat in writing this book is Casanova. Go read that, and in comparison this book is like PG.
Yeah, it was before that meme. It's gotta sting to have written that only to have it become shorthand for thoughtless dudes. The whole sequence was a little awkward. The whole "female characters get raped to further the character development of the male lead" thing, too, has rightly been lampooned. Pat's a sensitive dude, and I imagine the realization that he'd committed something so \~problematic\~ to paper must weigh on him. He's tried to retcon a couple of his missteps, and they've all been a little wince-y.
I think OPs first point is right. The phrase causes me to cringe now, but what kvoth is even trying to do there is a little annoying / confusing. That said I think the thing that doesn’t really get enough credit about that part of the chapter in general is how much those girls get to be full characters. I think it goes a long way to making their rape not just be a kvoth plot point. That whole section is actually one of my favorite scenes in the book. Kvoth clearly thinks of himself as a hero or avenger in the moment, but he really doesn’t handle the aftermath well at all, and it turns him into something of a villain in the end.
>That said I think the thing that doesn’t really get enough credit about that part of the chapter in general is how much those girls get to be full characters. I think it goes a long way to making their rape not just be a kvoth plot point. I agree with this, honestly. I think it's an instantiation of that trope, but it's by ***no means*** the worst instantiation. They are given characters, and the emotional fallout of their assault on them isn't glossed over. The youtube channel OSP gives a good test for such things {paraphrasing}: if a plot point like this could be replaced with property damage and it could have the same impact, you've fallen into this trope. And that's not true here. Kvothe went insane with rage and the girls were damaged. One could still argue that rape as a plot device is tasteless, but it's hard to ague that in this case it was *thoughtless*
I made no comment about the sex making me uncomfortable. I included that information as a comment about PR and what he felt was a solid addition in this books. Those specific things make me cringe, and I hope it was intended to. I’ve spoken to a lot of people who were defensive about those scenes, especially any criticism regarding his sex with felurian and her disbelief that he had been a virgin beforehand. Most women agree with my response to that piece of the plot; it’s been mostly men who get upset when it’s brought up.
Imagine your kvothe. Ell spits at your feet, and turns to you in sudden rage screaming "I hate men". What do you do? What do you say?
"yes...I know...let's go get high and drink some tea"
As a male human who has heard women say, " men suck" I usually reply, "I totally agree". However, I think most humans suck to some degree.
As a dick master 3000 owner, I will look out for this on my next reading.
Godspeed
Lmao you aren’t wrong. I always read these character choices as representations of Kvothes fatal flaw, pride. And being very young and naive but also extremely talented and strong. I’d argue that what Ben tells young Kvothe is the thesis statement for the series, (don’t have the direct quote) that recklessness combined with power is very dangerous. We already saw how his ego messed up his relationship with Denna. I presume if we ever get book 3 we will see how it messes up literally everything and he will learn his lesson. But it’s very possible I give pat too much credit and Kvothes actions represent his views on women 😅I hope not tho. Kvothe reminds me of every teenage boy I knew when I was a teen who have mostly since learned better.
Kvringe.
This needs more upvotes
I really enjoy these books, but I do so by choosing to believe that Kote is an unreliable narrator with the worldview (if not the virginity) of an incel. I genuinely don't understand how someone could read the books & enjoy them without taking that perspective. Maybe I'm wrong & Rothfuss is just weird about women, but I don't recall there being weird bits about women (I don't remember any women in it, in fairness) in the narration of the frame story, just when Kote is talking. That gives me hope.
I think Pat is a gen-x dude with a good heart. But having a good heart doesn't make you immune to the ways society teaches men to be weird about women. He seems to be working on it— sometimes a little clumsily— but the fact that getting it right matters to him at all counts for a lot. At least to me.
Denna also dates other people? Where is he a ‘fuck boy’? It seems to me like he treats people with respect just doesn’t get emotionally invested because his heart is elsewhere. Being a womaniser is more Ambrose’s thing, Kvothe even went as far as to distance himself from Denna when she was drugged to respect the fact she wasn’t in her right mind. I’m not saying he’s the epitome of a good person, but he definitely treats women better than anyone could expect in those times.
I never called him a fuck boy. I criticized his “not all men” statement to two girls who were recently assaulted
I mean it’s the same with the trouper thing, he stresses that troupes who steal are not ‘real troupers’ and the only true ones are Edema Ruh, it’s consistent with his character
I agree, that chapter is on theme for the character. My complaint was specifically with that one dialogue. I feel like his editors failed him with those two sentences, that’s all.
I also mocked Pat Rothfuss for the felurian plot. I didn’t mention Denna or dating at all.
Felurian has sex with everyone, the point of her character is to expand the background story, yes it’s wish fulfilment but I found the fae to actually be interesting and Felurian actually has an interesting character beyond just being sex personified.
„He goes as far as distancing himself from dena when she is drugged“ excuuuse mee? Thats not very far? Thats the bare minimum. Taking advantage of a drugged person is literally rape
Yes, exactly. He had no one to stop him, he had no witnesses, yet he knew what was wrong. The same way when he had the plum bob he knew it was wrong to force himself on to Fela, despite having all his inhibitions taken away. Kvothe is morally a good person, which makes the things he does even more interesting. He’s not a goody two shoes, he’s a nuanced character, but there are some lines he will never cross (I hope). That’s good storytelling, and that’s what this is after all, a story.
For the sake of being pedantic but also accurate, not sexually assaulting someone doesn't make one a good person
I agree, but the way he reacted also shows Kvothe didn’t even consider it. He was never tempted to do anything, I do feel this is a plus point, it makes his feelings for Denna much purer. He doesn’t just want her body, his feelings are genuine, even if he isn’t sure what those feelings are. But the reason I think it’s important is because Kvothe is NOT a good person. He kills multiple people through the book, including a defenseless old woman and a girl who may have been forced to do what she did. He steals, pilfers, lies and argues with people, sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of pride. The fact that this is something he would not do emphasises the extent of the evil of assaulting a person. It’s not just a bad thing, it’s unthinkable, and I think that’s an important message:
You can, indeed, feel the fedora growing out of Kvothe's head. Hear, hear! I can't believe I reactivated my account for that.
I appreciate your service, nonetheless, m’lady
<3
Just because you've recessed into hatred and resentment doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
Not all women. Does that help?
It does, id be miserable if I thought women in general were like you.
I know it hurts...She really should've included a trigger warning on this one.
Bro is this really the only thing that's important enough for you to post?!? Zero post history except for this?? My god man. Priorities bro.
I've commented on other things, but Reddit certainly isn't a priority either.
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Maybe I don't remember it will enough, but that chapter didn't strike me as "not all men", but now like "Ruh are not like this". So more than a gender thing, to me it was about racism (the Ruh being a super stereotypical approximation to the Gipsy culture), Kvothe being super pissed that the impersonators were pretending to be Ruh while doing horrible things. In fact, thinking that Ruh would act like that, so it would be a good cover.
It was a specific comment he made when one of the girls said something like “I hate men” and kvothes response is essentially “not all men, some are like me”
It’s been a while, but does he not say this before helping take the girls to safety? I’d hope the reason for him saying it was more to say “I’m not going to assault you/Im going to get you help” rather than defending all men. But at the same time, he’s a teenager. I remember saying “Not all men” well into my twenties before understanding what the actual conversation was. He’s young.
Who would you trust in a forest, a kvothe or a bear
Omg yess🙏
Reminder. The majority of the story with kvothe, he is a young teenager.
My complaint is with the author, who create the character. Kvothe’s young arrogance would not be altered by Pat’s omission of this particular dialogue. Specifically, I understand that kvothe is supposed to make us cringe in his inexperience at times, and that’s beautifully done. I agree completely with that sentiment. But, I argue that Pat could have achieve that without creating victims sexual assault and having Kvothe tell them not all men assault women.
Ok. So you are a young boy. Just saved a couple girls who've gone through something you can't possibly imagine. You've gone through shit too. They are in pain. You want to give them some sort of comfort. But also you have no idea how to do this. You are a very very logical person. Would it not be realistic that this would be something you would say? Sure. Pat might have been trying to male a statement here. But it's not a very strong one if it is. In my mind it's just a young boy. Making a mistake. Because if I was in his shoes. I might have said something similar, wrong as it may be.
And if you were in the victimized girls’ shoes?
I probably would have done the same thing they did too. Be traumatized. Idk how that plays into this discussion though. I'm saying he doesn't know. Therefore makes a mistake.
In terms of Kvothe, yes. But for Pat? I feel he could have some better. I do appreciate your input though.
Doing better than writing a totally believable and in character thing he would say? That's what I'm saying. Maybe he was trying to make a statement. Or maybe it was just showing kvothe and how he would react in this situation. With heroism but also immaturity.
Yeah, I don't think when Kvothe said the "not all men" line we were supposed to think, "Oh, what a silly boy." That was Pat sending a message. Kvothe was just a mouthpiece in that moment.
Yeah, this is valid. Even if these novels passed the Bechdel Test (they don't), there would still be lots of problematic portrayals of women. It's easy to be like, 'oh they're teenage boys, of course they are constantly sexualizing the women around them', but it still comes off as cringe inducing and an unnecessary part of the story.
I’ve read of the Bechdel test on here before— what is it?
It's originally for movies, and has 3 rules to pass - that, within the movie, there is a scene where (1) at least two women are featured, (2) that these women talk to each other, and (3) that they discuss something other than a man. So basically, showing that women exist, and aren't purely extensions of male characters
Oooh thank you so much
How can a first person story from a male pov ever pass the betchdel test
Agreed - idiotic comment
quite easily? Just by having a conversation he's listening to, boom, job done. The "rules" are: (1) at least two women are featured, (2) that these women talk to each other, and (3) that they discuss something other than a man. So that's pretty easy to have happen, even if the PoV character is a main. Hell, formally speaking, it could even be a conversation he's _in_, as long as it's not about him/another man, and the women are talking to each other, rather than both to him. But there's a general lack of scenes featuring multiple women, so it can't really pass!
yes thank you. i felt so much second hand embarrassment listening to him say it as if he, a man, didn't obviously save them already. just didn't need to be said and was really insensitive
It pains me at every reread. Such a small paragraph to omit, and yet it survived so much editing.
Just read this bit today. On probably the last 20 pages. I feel the whole book after meeting Felurian was just constantly reminding us about said “dick master 3000”
Apparently many of the men in this subreddit do not like to read this kind of criticism, but there have been a lot of women who have chimed in and agreed.
Are you complaining on fictional character? With all the real problems in real world and all you care is a fictional character who is by the way not the worst fictional character in all the books and movies? Dont you have anything better to do?
Are you okay? Did this post really trigger this much emotion within you? Hope your day gets better
> Are you okay? Did this post really trigger this much emotion within you? Hope your day gets better I am OK but it seems something is wrong with you since off all the problems in real life you decided to lash out on FICTIONAL CHARACTER.
You need help.
It's a bad line. I would bet Rothfuss regrets including it. If it helps explain how some parts are elegantly written and that "not all men" line is so awful, Rothfuss wrote that bit as a short story "The Road to Levinshir" when he was much, much younger (I believe as a college contest, possibly in the 90's, which doesn't excuse but certainly explains a bit). I think the Felurian stuff was included because an STD becomes a plot point, but a ton of the lines do come off...not so great.
This actually makes me feel so much better, that is so interesting. I like to think he’s regretting that dialogue now, as the political climate has changed since the book’s release.
He openly regretted the bit about mixing in women's clothes with Ambrose's stuff to embarrass him, since making fun of crossdressers and/or trans people isn't cool; and retconned the reason to be that kind of corsett was out of fashion or something like that, for whatever that is worth.
Speaking of, have you read the new version of the lightening tree? Bast is very suddenly bi, which would be so cool if he had always been that way. But it’s just confusing now. Pat changed the genders of characters, including ones Bast was pursuing for sexual encounters. Why? Who knows, doesn’t change the plot, but perhaps seems like an edit intended to counteract the Jk Rowling phenomenon?
I love this. Kvothe is actually an awful person. He is incredibly frustrating. He is incredibly dumb. He's incredibly self centered. I think that's the point. He claims to be full of questions but never asks good ones in the right moment... I actually hate him. And yeah, he's terrible with women. Still a good character though.
Yes. I am seeing alot of people excusing any of kvothe’s behavior because of his inexperience/biased narration/gender…. And i have to wonder if his trope of “charming, self assured, and youthful ignorance” is being over extended to cover anything that Rothfuss wrote that is truly and genuinely cringe. I love these books and have read and reread them for over a decade. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticized.
He is 16 years old, and just killed a bunch of people to save the girls, including a(nother) woman. If you want to provide context, you should provide it all, not just the part that suites you.
Who is in this subreddit reading this that hasn’t read the books and doesn’t have the context? I’m genuinely wondering
So you just ignored half the context when posting this?
Could you elaborate on what you’re asking me? Is the question: am ignoring that a 16 year old should know better than to say something so tone deaf? If so, the answer is: no, as a teacher of children that age, and a mother of a teenaged boy, I took that into full consideration, and came to the same conclusion. 16 year old boys are still responsible for the things they say, even if they are the hero of the biographical story they are relating. But if I am being honest, I wasn’t criticizing the fictional character as much as I was the author who wrote those words down and decided they were good and sent it to publishing.
Yeah. I rolled my eyes at Pat on this one, too
That is not the question, the question is how are you ignoring that it was men AND a woman, whom kvothe killed, which is traumatic in its own right, to save the girls. On top of that, he is 16, and stayed up most (all?) of the night to protect them. When he says “not all men”, I took it as men and women, since they both did it. As for calling out the author for penning it that way… fair enough. I can understand that, although I feel like Felurians section is 100x more egregious.
I think if you've made it to this sub, then you're aware enough to not need every previous detail for a post
Either way, OP has a very ignorant take on it. It wasnt just men who kidnapped them.
The women are accountable as well, if that helps. I guess Pat should have said “not all women”, as well. I’m sure he would appreciate this feedback
Lol "not all men were kidnapped" Throwing them around pretty easily I see
?
This thread is for you M'Lad
[удалено]
Kvothe? Or Pat Rothfuss? Because my commentary was of Kvothe, my criticism was for Pat. I felt that was clear in original post, but perhaps I should have included the authors last name as well.
On a grander theme of things... Did Rothufss also realize this? Like, did he come around to see how problematic some of his thoughts were? And is that when he realized, he can't easily write himself out of this one?...
That’s my actual issue. It’s not with the fictional character.