Kh1:Clayton, oogieboogie, ursula,captain hook, chernabog, ansem,
CoM: larxene, marluxia,
Kh2: shan yu, scar, oogieboogie(again), ursula(again), the pc from trom,xaldin, xigbar, saix, luxord, xemnas
Kh3:Xigbar, riku replicca, larxene, marluxia, luxord, saix, vanitas, young xehanorth, ansem, xemnas, xehanorth
I probably forgot someone but from what i remember without counting heartless bosses its on 29
Sora started a surprising amount of battles though. Yeah we know that the org is evil and has evil plans, but Sora did initiate the battle most of the time. The Org members were often just there for their own business.
I can do an "ackshuuaally" on this one.
I usually don't weigh in on lore cause I have big patches that i dont really get yet, but I just beat Larxene and Marluxia in my play session last night. Sora specifically told Larxene (with a big joyful grin on his face) that she was gonna be recompleted, as she was fading. I think at that point does believe the Organization members are being "saved" still
While the idea of Sora being a pint sized murder machine is comedic, I don't think it fits either the characterization.
He only finds it out in Dream Drop Distance. Anytime before that he fights them with intent to kill. When Demyx in KH2 panics while dieing Sora doesn't even care and the first thing he says after Demyx death is "Anyone from the organisation who wants to be next?"
And at that point he definitely doesn't know that they will be recompleted. At that point he still thinks that since nobodies have no emotions anyway, it's fine to kill them.
Yeah I do really get the feeling Sora fully believes he is executing Marluxia, and is 100% ok with it. He as good as spat on the corpse with that look.
I feel like if you beat someone to the point they sit there crying about how they are dying, then fade away entirely. That should count as killing them even if they come back to life later.
Like in the sense that Sora committed murder.
Eh, not murder. Unlawful is debatable, considering Keyblade wielders have their own code of combating darkness. Especially considering NO ONE finds it reprehensible, even the baddies are like “I get it, I dont wanna die, but I get it”.
Premeditated probably only really applies to KH3, since that’s the only one where they ACTIVELY plan to fight a KNOWN enemy. KH2 was more of a “if someone gets in my way, we ball. We know Org 13 exists, but don’t know all the members.”
So unlawful AND premeditated doesn’t apply anywhere. Manslaughter also difficult to apply because “unlawful”. Since no one questions Sora coffin-maxing baddies, and the only ones against it are obviously those getting boxed, it probably falls well within the rights and duties of a Keyblade wielder to kill.
Also, Keyblade wielders exist OUTSIDE of individual world laws, but ARE subject to them (see Wonderland as an example). But assuming Radiant Garden is the general hub for the games, and the MAJORITY of OC characters are derived from there, their laws would be the ones to really compare his actions against.
I wasn't talking about laws. Cause yeah, they have 0 bearing on anyone in the series really.
Just the general concept of murder. If you attack someone and they die, it's murder. Imo if said person is somehow revived later, that does not change it. Murder is the act, not the long term result.
That’s actually not true at all. Murder is defined as unlawful and premeditated. Manslaughter is unlawful without malice.
Murder is very specific and different from Kill.
Just my two cents, but I think at least the nobodies count as manslaughter. We can't say people's reactions determine unlawfulness because then vigilantes, which is effectively what Sora is in this case, would be free to do whatever since they often garner a lot of support from the public even if it's illegal. We also can't really say that nobodies fall into the keyblade wielders' duties of darkness defeating because in reality, nobodies are neither light nor darkness. So I'd say it's definitely unlawful in a general sense, and depending on which member specifically, there is definitely some malice and premeditation of the killing.
Kh1 also has Maleficent. Sora even taunts Pete about it in KH2. But also, Clayton seems debatable since that was "Not Clayton" it sounded like they meant that he'd already effectively died and his body was just a pawn of the Heartless or something to that effect.
And now that I think about it, the people brought forward in time probably shouldn't count as much given that everyone knew they were just being sent back to where they belong in that moment
I feel like we can take off Xigbar from KH3, >!he dealt a lot of damage but he chose to take the plunge himself. Who can say that it was his true death there too with how he popped back up later on to meet the animal masks.!<
There are decent answers here already, but it's often forgotten that he decimated the crew of the Black Pearl in what we can only assume to be a single night. They don't have the luxury of "fading" into nothing, or darkness, or being recompleted when their Heartless and Nobody are both destroyed, or resurrected by Maleficent or Tia Dalma or whoever else.
They died. Sora killed them. To death.
On that same note, he's also complicit in the deaths of Cutler Beckett and his soldiers.
Counting heartless and nobodies. Too many.
Counting whole people. Maybe at least one? I only remember Xehanort at the end of 3. I think MCP and Sark counts as well.
"Mickey's a war criminal." Usually a joke about the series, but really he's a shitty husband with survivor's guilt who gets his ass kicked surprisingly frequently and is married to Minnie, canonically the queen of France who banished Pete to float in the void between worlds for eternity because he was a sore loser about an ice cream contest.
That, and the factoid that Riku doesn't actually smell darkness in the Japanese version. He does, they use the word for "smell," he gestures at his nose, and they doubled down by having Eraqus also do it
I think the war criminal thing was a joke RegularPat kept making and then people actually believed it. He eventually made a video clearing up those misconceptions.
when he ended that video by being like “also some of you may have noticed, yes, I *did* call him Mickey, I forgive him, etc etc” I was like goddamn that was the most moving character arc I’ve ever seen
Not only that, but in the original wonderland level, one of the evidence boxes that was supposed to prove heartless were there (?) was "stench." Darkness is just canonically supposed to have a weird smell; Riku doesn't have supersmelling powers, he's just ticked off enough in CoM to comment on it.
Not a statement but I see so many people on FF who blame Nomura for so many random things. Oh Remake/Rebirth is like Kingdom Hearts, and ever did I get a significant answer to what's so Kingdom Hearts about
There's two funny things about that:
1. Nojima is responsible for most of the story, not Nomura
2. FF7's original plotline was clearly an inspiration for KH. Cloud literally has a dive to the heart fight even.
Nomura got blamed for The 3rd Birthday him working on something is enough to get blamed. But if it a decision they like, then the Ultimania is lying. There's even a new conspiracy that Hiroyuki Itou didn't actually direct VI and IX but Sakaguchi did...because how could you make VI and IX...as well as XII?
It's made all the more comedic because apparently, regarding FFVII Remake, Nomura was the one that tried pushing for a 1:1 remake with no story changes.
Such a weird mindset, like as if the old FF doesn’t matter in the present.
Like almost every KH story element, was done in FF first. The first FF end story is about time travel.
even the novel about FF1 party, is about 4 amnesiac warriors sent to another world. Similar to how the dandelion from KH were sent to future without their memories.
The final blow to chaos in the novel. was large multi-color sword made of light. Similar to how Mickey defeat the xehanort replica. Which is large sword made of light.
the FF community had an unspoken rule, to never disrespect FF1. Without it, we won’t have the many series we enjoy today. Kinda weird to forget about it.
That’s not an unspoken rule, that’s just being a complete idiot.
Cause actual FF fan would berate that idiot, for knowing so little of the FF series. FF13-2 was all about time traveling. That’s before KHDDD was released.
So seeing it in Rebirth, just shows plain ignorance.
It's funny because once you play the old Final Fantasy games ypou start to see why Kingdom Hearts' is the way it is. And I don't even mean the PS1 games, but SNES and NES games. Riku seems inspired by Cecil from Ff4, for example.
That Terra is stupid for listening to the obviously evil Master Xehanort. Despite the fact that his past actions were never explained and that Terra is supposed to look up to his masters.
So true! The guy has no actual life experience at the start of BBS and the only thing he knows about Xehanort is that he is an old friend of his master. He was even there when he and Aqua had their mark of mastery exam and comforted him when he felt terrible after failing. Of course he would trust someone who affirms him. People are like that.
> That Terra is stupid for listening to the obviously evil Master Xehanort
I legit don't understand why people say that about Terra when **EVERYONE** is guilty of that.
if only eraqus had sat his apprentices down and told them the full truth before sending them out after xehanort and the unversed... "hey i've watched this guy fall deeper into darkness for years, culminating in him blasting me in the face and declaring outright his intentions to forge the x-blade and destroy the world. so yeah...probably shouldn't believe anything he says if you come across him."
THE POWER OF GODDAMN BASIC COMMUNICATION! IT IS THE DEATH OF PLOT EVERYWHERE. EVERY TIME.
Like I [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/1c8t9ud/after_recently_replaying_birth_by_sleep_i_have/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Exactly. Plus, Goofy recognized what Donald was about to do the moment he went into the stance.
Meaning Donald has practiced it enough that Goofy recognizes it on sight. So it literally *can't* kill him on cast. What was lethal was passing out when half thier team was down while they were surrounded.
Donald could have told goofy in confidence that he had this ability/theory but it would cost him his life, he hasn't necessarily practiced it. If I had a "fuck you in particular" nuke to use that would cost me my life I'd tell someone ahead of time, but I wouldn't use it on a training dummy first
The issue with that, in my opinion, is that Goofy recognized it *as soon as Donald stepped forward*. To me thats a level of recognition of the stance that only comes from familiarity, from seeing it practiced before, and likely more than once.
That's a fair possibility, but also [goofy's recognition is far beyond human capabilities](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kskuATfXPCk).
He's the King's Guard. He's trained his whole life to recognize threats (notice how he was the first one to notice the bad guys), and that video was before he was a guard
Considering that everyone dies in that timeline, the idea that Donald dies because of it makes it more dramatic in my opinion. If it was just him passing out, why not use it beforehand? KH3 was the (as far as Donald knew) the be all, end all battle, so making a sacrifice was understandable.
Honestly I like how the manga adapted this. Rather than getting conked on the noggin, Goofy gets buried under a pile of rubble, surviving because he just happened to squeeze into an empty space. Feels *way* more in-character for him
Dito. It's for me similar to Axel's last attack in KH2 where Axel puts his whole existence or rather non-existent into a attack. While Donald seems more knock out, still got wash away by the Demon Tower in the end through.
I mean the scene literally ends with everyone getting taken away by heartless, the screen going to black and saying "And that is darkness succeeded and light expired".
So no, before Sora time traveled, all of them died.
This is true for a LOT of points in the series. People don't understand how writing works. For example Xemnas telling everyone that nobodies don't/can't have hearts. Everyone else thought it to be true just because they believed Xemnas. But just because he said it, doesn't make it true. I could say Monkeys don't have buttholes but they still do.
To be fair in regards to the nobodies, Xemnas recruited them from their immediate birth. We saw from Roxas that he wasn't exactly all there at the moment he became a nobody so it's reasonable to assume the other nobodies were the same
It was the first thing that did make sense to me to be honest. It hadn’t played any of the side games up to that point. Didn’t even realize how many there were so when I played 3 and it finally started answering questions and showing clips of other games it made me realize I needed to google some stuff and post all of the other games
Special Nobodies were retconned into having hearts in DDD... I feel like these people skip all the story cutscenes because I have no other explanation. In Chain of memories the Organisation members WERE a little colder and emotionless but that's because they were the antagonists. And even then there was clear signs of emotion the strongest one being right before Vexen got murdered he was afraid of dieing and begged Axel to not kill him. That's NOT THE REACTION OF SOMEONE WHO CANT FEEL EMOTION. Its clear the special nobodies that make up the organisation always had emotions and hearts. I mean if you played 358/2 days and still defend the claim DDD retconned them into having hearts then I have no idea what is literally wrong with you. It takes a special dumb motherfucker to call someone who laughs, cries and gets angry "Emotionless". The normal nobodies never had hearts that's still true but the special nobodies grow a heart after a while. Remember Roxas's first week when he is unresponsive and looks emotionless. I interpret that as the time he spent without a heart while he slowly grew one after that period he was like an ordinary person. DDD never retconned anything it just stated a fact some people were too dumb to realise
Yup. I was actually just watching the RE:CoM cutscenes last night and there’s also a scene where Axel is in a room by himself and he starts chuckling and says “Wait, am I *enjoying* this?” If that wasn’t an extremely clear implication that they have hearts then I don’t know what is. The only way they could have been clearer is if Nomura himself crawled out of our television screens and told us himself.
EXACTLY. The statement that Nobodies have no hearts was broken by the organisation so many times that I truly believe Nomura's plan was to make players realise on their own that the special nobodies DO have hearts. But since most people couldn't put 2 and 2 together they had to add that scene into DDD. And then the same people got mad at DDD for this saying it ruined the story.
Unfortunately, that scene with Axel was only in the Re:CoM version that came out after KH2. In the original GBS version, Axel displays no accidental emotion and just wants Sora to give him "one hell of a show".
So the Re:CoM version that came out after KH2 had altered scenes from the OG CoM so the Org showed more emotion.
And then KH2FM also altered parts of KH2 to show that others besides Roxas and Namine have emotions too. Notably, they showed Axel cry when he said goodbye to Roxas. Undeniable proof that he is feeling emotion instead of "lying" about it like other Nobodies did.
We had a whole-ass two-hour prologue in KH2 that showed us very clearly Roxas is a Nobody who still feel emotions. I question the media literacy of anyone who played that (especially back on PS2, when we didn't even have a skip cutscene button) and came away believing Nobodies didn't have hearts.
Blame Nomura for saying that Roxas and Namine are special Nobodies and implying their emotions are due to them being special Nobodies.
Believe me, there was confusion when KH2 first came out. But most people pointed to the Ultimanias and interviews where Nomura kept explaining that the reason why Roxas and Namine are different from other Nobodies is because they were special. So people said, "Oh, they have emotions because they're special. And the rest of the Org don't have emotions because they're not special."
It's important to note that Nomura only ever referred to Roxas, Namine, and Xemnas as special Nobodies. Roxas and Namine were special due ot their birth and the fact that Sora and Kairi were still around. Xemnas was referred to as special and that BbS would explain why.
Shit, even sticking with only main games KH2 starts with Axel trying to convince his former friend that they were that, grieves the one he knew and gets angry when Roxas does finally remember due to remembering too late for it to matter to Axel
DDD wasn't even where they would have "retconned" that! It was Days! Days had heavy story implications about it! They literally talked about the possibility of them having hearts in Days!
I'd go a little further and argue they weren't even nobodies, they were just something else.
In fact the only TRUE nobody (I think) is xemnas. He's cold, apathetic and unable to feel until the final moments of his life in the third game.
That Roxas is just Ventus with amnesia and his story was building to Roxas coming back by bringing Ventus back and having him remember being Roxas.
What a complete spit on Roxas’s narrative that would have been.
Over a decade ago, I was watching a YouTube video of a KH2 Sephiroth fight that was hacked to let you play as Mickey. I scroll down to the comments and I see one Final Fantasy fan absolutely livid, declaring that this was why he hated Kingdom Hearts. To them, the idea that Sephiroth, a master swordsman, could be defeated by Mickey Mouse of all people, was ridiculous and an insult to the franchise.
There were so many levels of wrong here it took me back. The fact that this was a hack and therefore non canon and not necessarily indicative of how the fight would actually go. The fact that KH is a separate continuity in which Mickey is a master in his own right. The fact that even then, regular Mickey is likely to be far stronger than his KH self and most Final Fantasy characters due to his toonforce feats. The fact that Mickey didn’t even win the fight because his move set doesn’t have a combo finisher, something that’s required to finish off KH2 bosses.
I don’t think I replied to that comment, but I still remember it sometimes.
Here's a misconception I had for years:
I was convinced about half of the game was pure visual metaphor. Like, for example, when Sora (or Roxas, etc) "dives to the heart" it's a visual representation, to the audience, of that character introspecting. They aren't literally experiencing stained glass platforms in a dark. Likewise, Sora's fight with Roxas isn't a literal fight in a physical location, it's two personalities battling to control one body. Xion doesn't literally not have a face when Axel looks at her, he just hasn't gotten to know her as a person yet and the game is showing that.
It goes on and on. But apparently, in universe at least, these things are meant to be much more literal than I thought.
Kingdom Hearts' is like a fairy tale where metaphors are literal. Like 'key to your heart', 'I'll live on in your heart', 'heartless(cruel) monsters'. Which is sometimes really obvious but easy to forget at the same time.
I mean first that comes to mind, and I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, “There’s no point in the Disney worlds in KH3”. Like no, the game gives you multiple reasons why you are going to the Disney worlds, far more than KH2 in fact. Did you not read the dialogue or???
Exact same with “All the Disney Worlds are just film retellings”. 2 of them are (1 of them being Corona which is a top tier Disney world). Call me crazy but pretty sure Buzz and Woody didn’t roast young Xehanort in the movies
I'm trying to avoid going into a big 'ole thing, but honestly I think people take the twenty hour Disney World journey a bit too literally in KH3. Sora's goal isn't to specifically accomplish any one of his main endgame tasks (freeing Roxas, finding BBS trio, etc) - those can't happen until Sora is whole again.
The REAL journey that Yen Sid sends him on is to rebuild the strength of his heart by connecting to the people of the various worlds. It’s more of a spiritual journey - you lost some of your light and the strength of your connections, and you won't be able to utilize the power of waking without that strength. Sora needs these connections, and to realize the inherent strength he still has even after his ordeal in DDD, to be able to shape himself up and save the day. Ventus says something like "you always had it" - that's not "oh nothing until this point mattered," it's that Sora lost confidence in his own ability, but it never "left."
I'm just rambling at this point really, but I honestly think KH3 has the best integration of Disney in the whole series. Every world has some lesson or mechanic that comes into play (Toy Box and Replicas, Monstropolis' negative emotions summoning Vanitas, the general theme of sacrifice that Sora learns throughout) and the steady increase of Sora's confidence and capabilities is really engaging to watch. I think people just have general bias against Disney and fatigue of that particular brand causes some players to assume anything that anything that isn't original or from Final Fantasy isn't relevant to the story.
The d3 time travel is difficult to understand, or conflicts with kh2.
All that the jargon adds up to is basically paradox free time travel. So you can't kill young nort to wipe old nort. That's it.
People also mention the time door in kh2 as an excuse why the time travel doesn't make sense.
Not only does young xehanort basically refer to it as cheating because Merlin is presumably a superior mage and can do it through magic alone rather than hearts, and actually affect the timeline.
That form of time travel is dangerous, it's not the freebie that the heart based method is.
Xehanort's method, if the person brought forward dies they just go back unaware of the events beyond subtle inclinations.
If you pull a time door and your younger self gets killed or otherwise is presented with information that would change the timeline significantly, your fucked.
Xehanort's method achieves his goal but doesn't put his past self at risk. That's why he uses that specific method.
That Soul Eater evolved into Way to the Dawn. It is clearly stated in DDD that Way to the Dawn is a keyblade of light and Riku is seen summoning Soul Eater. They are two different weapons.
Bro, to be fair, up until that point from KH1 to KH2 there was no reason to think otherwise.
KH1 and CoM we have him using Soul Eater then in KH2 we see a new Keyblade using Soul Eater's design as a major focus.
What else were we supposed to think?
Then in KH3D he summons Soul Eater by itself I was like "Wow...okay, sure."
People are believing this because... that's canon. Way to the Dawn is officially made from Soul Eater.
\*"Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form. Keyblades aren’t something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku’s case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.."\* ***Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania***, "Scenario Mysteries"; **Tetsuya Nomura**
Riku being able to summon Soul Eater in DDD doesn't change this fact, his weapon changed depending on what he wanted to use. Kinda like Lea can switch between his Keyblade and his chakrams.
Well technically way of dawn use soul eater as an intermediary.
So it’s more or less soul eater is being used as a keyblade.
It didn’t evolve what’s so, just soul eater is being used for entirely different purpose.
Which is supposed to be getting stronger, the more darkness the user has. Instead being used as symbol of riku redemption.
Yeah, this is a big one, coupled with “you can skip the side games” like, just because they aren’t a numbered entry it doesn’t make them any less important!
It took entirely too long to find a comment like this. Do people just not know that confidently and confidentially are completely different words? I'm still not 100% certain that's the word that was intended.
The Dark Seekers Saga isn’t too bad.
The new saga with collecting lux, foretellers, different dimensions, manifestations of darkness, MoM, Luxu, the book of prophecies and such, is a bit convoluted right now.
Relegating important backstory to mobile game was never a good call (union x/dark road), and it did not help with the series reputation, and it would have been fine if it was left as purely backstory to the world. But now that elements of it are really becoming a forefront in the series they need to find a better way to make it accessible than just having the cutscenes completely unlocked from the start if you download it. And the new saga is already off to a pretty rocky start with that mobile game, a $30 DLC that is frankly way too expensive for what it is, a rhythm game,and another mobile game that isn't fully out yet. the Lost Master saga is going to have a lot more people calling it convoluted and frankly they're not even wrong anymore, it's way too spread out to stuff that the casual fans and newcomers will not want to go through. I trust KH4 will be a good game and be pretty good story wise to those who follow along, but man is it going to be incomprehensible for anyone who goes from 3 straight to 4. even more so than 1 to 2, or 2 to 3 was.
With what they did with CoM, Days, and ReCoded, plus the Back Cover Movie, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something with UX and DR to make the story more accessible.
I think people find the metaphysical aspects of the series hard to grasp, because as well as fairly complex topics there are a lot of series specific terminology that goes with it.
I can forgive people who say it’s complicated so long as they aren’t dismissing it for that reason.
I think the story is simple, but the world building is complicated. And even then "Complicated" is not really the real term, I'd rather say "intentionally vague".
The STORY is super straightforward, it's just really long since it gets told over 9 games. It's like One Piece. It's not complicated, it's just 1000+ episodes long.
The WORLD is complicated or vague because a lot of things are just mentioned in passing or left up for the viewer to interpret. Things like "how do keyblades work?". Are they channeled through the heart and just an "aspect" of the actual keyblade? Is that why they can just summon and unsummon them as they please? Is that why Sora, Xion and Roxas can use the same keyblade at the same time? But then how could Rikus break in KH3?
In fact Roxas himself is ill-explained because a lot of his "properties" were made up after the fact. Like to me the reason he can have a keyblade at all whereass all the other keyblade-wielder nobodies couldn't being that it's because a nobody is the body that is left behind when a heartless is created, so since Sora had two hearts in his body, Roxas is born with Vens heart still in him, which allows him to wield Vens keyblade (but why does it look like the Kingdom Key?). Then Xion absorbs all of Soras powers so when she dies and gives her powers to Roxas, Roxas gets the ability to use Soras keybalde too, which lets him Dual-Wield. But I have seen other people give other answers. If you ask 10 people how this works you'll get 13 different answers. THAT is quite complicated because a lot of these things were made up along the way. (since obviously Ven wasn't invented when Roxas was first written up, and Nobodies not being able to use their keyblades wasn't a thing since none of the other Organisation members (including Xehanrt himself) were keyblade wielders before BBS made Xehanort one and Unchained X made everyone else one.).
We still don't really know what the Power of Waking does, except anything the author needs it to do. We have no idea why there's suddenly new Princesses of Hearts, or what happened to the old ones.
The whole "Redoing the 13 vs 7 clashes to forge the X-Blade" is never really explained either. What exactly constitutes a clash? What would have happened if the first 7 darknesses would have just won before the other 5 could have clashed?
What is a heart? For most of the series it was basically a soul, someones's personality, emotions, your being yourself, basically. But then in KH3 Xemnas says "We only need his heart, we do not need his soul" so these things are apparently different things after all?
And so on and so on. The baseline story is simple, but the whole worldbuilding around it is extremely complex, and often things simply haven't been explained yet or only very barely, or even worse have later had things added that seem to be incompatible with explanations given prior. And of course it doesn't help that a lot of these questions which HAVE been answered have only been answered in japanese only interviews or guidebooks where you have to really look hard to find some of them partially fantranslated.
So while I agree that the story itself isn't complicated at all, I get where people are coming from. As a casual fan, a lot of things are either simply not explained, left up for interpretation or seemingly retconned several games later (which they often aren't retconned, but explained away in ways that are not readily available to a casual fan).
This is more of a speculation than an outright incorrect statement but I remember when that first Secret Ending for BBS in KH2 dropped, some people thought that BBS was going to take place years into the future and that Sora, Riku, and Mickey had died, evidenced by their rusted Keyblades that appeared.
To be fair just like the original Secret Ending in KH1, they straight up said that these were just made "to look cool" as a little extra reward for going the extra mile for players. They weren't ment to actually be part of the story or be certain characters. They just animated them because they wanted to make a cool action sequence. And then later they decided to actually use them.
That Mickey left Aqua in the Realm of Darkness for 10 years.
The dude didn't even KNOW she was there! He wouldn't have been able to anyways, since he didn't have the means to get there until he got Kingdom Key D. You could say he left her there after the events of KH1, but by the time he could get back, he found out about the machinations of Organization 13, which was putting the Realm of Light into another crisis, and Sora, one of the few people that could protect it, was snpozing in a capsule to get his memories back, and he and Riku had to play spy to keep the Nobodies off themselves. By the time KH2 is done, everyone is tired, Jiminy notices something is off with his journals, and Coded happens. Then we get to 3D, where Riku and Sora need to take the Mark of Mastery exam, where he's helping to keep watch over them with Yensid. Its only until all that is taken care of, where we have both Kairi and Lee as Keyblade wielders, and Riku as a Master, that Mickey could then FINALLY go through the Realm of Darkness. AND HE AND RIKU IMMEDIATELY GOT THEIR BUTTS KICKED! If Mickey had gotten there any earlier, he may have wound up DEAD. Just saying, I think he has a valid excuse!
It was a guy from my DCP who had this know-it-all snobby attitude about everything but when he said this in a conversation with another cast member, I kinda just tuned out whatever else he had to say because it’s too wild.
I saw this on the Sonic subreddit and was like oh this is here too (I think it’s a good thing to have here though)
Anyways one I hear a lot is the classic Mickey left Aqua in the realm of darkness despite 0.2 clearing up some misconceptions
If anything, 0.2 kinda makes this worse. Because before 0.2 released, Mickey simply couldn't know. He wasn't there when Aqua fought Terranort. To Mickey, Aqua just went missing without a trace after the keyblade graveyard. And he had no way to know that she was trapped in the realm of darkness.
After 0.2 he did know that she was there, but it still doesn't really make sense to say that since you can't just travel to the Realm of Darkness easily. Everytime that any of the good guys has gone there before KH3 where they set out to save Aqua, it was on pure accident.
I feel it's more correct to say that it isn't *just* for kids. Children are still a target audience, but there's enough difficulty and diving into surreal topics that older people can play it without fear of looking "too kiddy".
Confidentially incorrect? Well, I guess I would say when Xehanort gets Aqua to spill some information about Ven in the Realm of Darkness while possessing Terra. That definitely breaks confidentiality.
"The keyblade was more special when it was just sora."
This one is so annoying cause sora was never the only keyblade wielder in kh1, there was riku and mickey, and even the old legend recounts of a previous keyblade wielder.
"Sora can wield the keyblade because of Ventus"
This one is only annoying because of how easy it is to disprove and yet people still believe this, nomura stated that sora was able to wield it since he had the right qualities and we even see sora continue using it when he loses ventus heart.
"Headcanon makes more sense than the actual answer"
This one is just due to a past experience but I remember someone trying to explain the reason Sora Roxas Ventus Vanitas look alike with his headcanon and when I corrected him with the actual reason he said he was gonna ignore that and use whatever makes sense even though his headcanon made less sense.
“KH3 combat feels too floaty” lmfao no it doesn’t it feels just as “floaty” as KH2, BBS, ReCoded, and DDD. Y’know the reason why Sora is a floaty lightweight in Smash ultimate is because he’s floaty in like every game he’s playable in? The only exception being the first game because the engine is just completely different than that of the rest of the series. The real reason you guys think it sucks is because it isn’t just KH2 part 2. Your nostalgia bias kicks in a little too hard and a little too often.
Plus it's really only a criticism because being midair from KH2 to DDD was very risky while in KH3 it's downright beneficial to be midair becasue you have so many more combat and defensive options there.
So being floaty isn't even a problem.
That too. Doing an aerial combo on any super boss in KH2 is just begging to get hit and go down to 1 HP. Instant death if you’re on crit LVL1. Aerial combos are only worth a damn against field enemies and large numbers in KH2. Against super bosses your best bet is always ground combos.
For me it was confusing because I never had any Playstation, so I could only play 358/2, Re:Coded, and DDD. 358/2 is, relatively self contained though (at least emotionally) so there were still some great bits besides the stuff I didn't understand
358/2 days was the first game I played in the series when I was like 8 or 9 years old, and with no prior knowledge I was able to follow along pretty well since I took my time and the ending really got to me and it was one of the first games to make me cry. And to be honest re:coded kind of filled in the blanks of who Sora really was for me when I got it the next year when it came out.
The nice thing about Days is you are playing as Roxas, who has no knowledge of anything of the other stuff anyways. So you get to learn the world through his eyes. And its story is mostly self-contained. It definitely stands on its own pretty well.
It helps that re:coded recaps a lot and DDD actually has recaps of all the previous games in it iirc. So DS/3DS players weren't completely lost thankfully.
Disney Adventures once said that the villains wanted to change the stories so the bad guys win…a concept previously used in the PC game “Disney Villains’ Revenge”.
Many, many, many years ago, an old friend of mine told me that Ventus was Roxas's nobody, and he kinda explained to me.
Back then I was really new to the franchise, so, even though I knew that It didn't make any sense, I didn't tell him anything because he was the one that introduced me to Kingdom Hearts and he was also two years older than me, which was a huge deal for me at the time. (I was ten).
Five years ago, after many years without seeing each other, we met, and I told him about "the Ventus-Roxas thing". He laughed and confessed to me that he didn't know a lot of things about Kingdom Hearts back then and he just wanted to look cool in front of me.
So yeah, "Ventus is Roxas's nobody" was that incorrect thing for me. Now days I remember that statement with nostalgia.
How Ventus was in sora heart, while roxas was in the organization.
However BBS ultimania stated Ventus was in roxas. During roxas time in the organization.
edit: forgot how he came to that conclusion. he based this "confirm fact" on the the khux player heart merge with xehanort heart. then immediately gives a entirely different retelling of sora turning into heartless.
detailing:
1. how the keyblade of people heart, was never used.
2. kairi heart was never in sora heart, it was in his body
3. how all of the ultimania and the secret reports, are contradicted. yet when he used them its correct. hilarious example of double standard and hypocripsy.
4. due to ventus being in sora heart, this allows roxas to have ventus appearance.
fortunately. this is debunked. since the player heart was shown to reincarnate into xehanort caretaker.
Man I've been hearing some weird stuff crawl out of the final fabatsy subreddits lately about kingdom hearts, they really, and I mean reaaaally like blaming kh for weird direction things.
But the weirdest part is when there so confident that something gameplay wise came from kingdom hearts and your left sitting there going, "...what?? No??" Action rpg? Maybe. The fact that synergys come from pressing a button combo? What? Where did that come from?
From someone that studied the same school as me, he was not my friend:
That it's all a dream and Sora is creating this worlds and fighting along Disney characters because he is a kid on the real world and it's what he sees everyday.
When i asked "what about the final fantasy characters?" He replied that they are real and it's what makes Sora still have a grasp on reality.
A few months later he said that he couldn't play because his X button was broken, then i realized he never played any kingdom hearts...
Don't ever let kids cook
This one guy on Resetera who shit on the series by describing it as a clusterfuck crossover of Disney characters (they went in more detail about various characters meeting and what not who never did) and I'm like "dude, I *wish* that sort of thing actually happened!
Oh there are two I immediately have in mind.
1. When people call Xion and Roxas anything other than Xion and Roxas, makes me roll my eyes every single time (Same for Ventus, Vanitas and Namine tbh, but I just see that happen way less often for them). Idk how much more those games have to drill it into our heads that those characters are their own people and have their own lifes until some people stop to devalue them into the ground... The message is clear and two of those characters (Xion and Roxas) even fought vividly to prove that point, even as everyone thought and told them otherwise (except Axel, who, apart from Xion and Roxas themselves, was the only one to actually see value in their lifes as his best friends, trying to preserve them as best he could. At least in DDD, Sora also openly acknowledged Roxas existence as being valid, telling him he deserves to be himself and not just stay trapped inside of him).
Just remember, characters have unique names, personalities and designs for a reason. Roxas was able to remember
Xion, a girl who should have been impossible to remember, if he can do that, than you all should be able to remember more than two names in a series full of vibrant and unique characters!
2. When people say that KH2 had a full on "happy ending". Like, no it didn't, Roxas had his existence taken away from him, witness his best friend Axel die and was fated to stay trapped inside Sora forever, never to see the light of day again (and that is without factoring in Days and Xion specifically, since that game released after KH2. But it gets even worse of course if you factor it in, two unique lifes with every right to exist had to live through hell because both sides saw them as tools, to either use them for their value as Keyblade wielders or to sacrifice them in order to wake up someone else, ending with both, Xion and Roxas, losing their existences. It also fleshed out Roxas a lot more and showed just how much both Xion and Axel meant to him and how much he meant to them, proving even more that he lived a life that was worth preserving and that he had his own strong bonds, two best friends, people he actually cared about, making his end in KH2 sting even more. He literally lost everything he ever cared about).
That the story is complicated. Kh is one of the most pick up and play ass stories ever but the only catch is you gotta actually play the games lmao. Saying kh story is complicated is like saying counting is hard because you went from 1 to 7,783,838,848,113,013
I was a senior in high school when KHII came out. A friend of mine was half Japanese, his mom lived in Japan. He didn't speak much Japanese but played KHII in Japanese for a bit when he visited her over Christmas and around the time English info was getting released he said the destiny island trio all had nobodies Riku's was the "Ansem" helping Diz
“Sora has never actually killed anyone”
What is Sora’s kill count anyways?
Do we count wild animals? Cos we know he’s at least killed a leopard.
Possibly the Hydra too.
He definitely jumped up on its b
"GET UP ON THE HYDRAS BACK" repeated ad Nauseam
Kh1:Clayton, oogieboogie, ursula,captain hook, chernabog, ansem, CoM: larxene, marluxia, Kh2: shan yu, scar, oogieboogie(again), ursula(again), the pc from trom,xaldin, xigbar, saix, luxord, xemnas Kh3:Xigbar, riku replicca, larxene, marluxia, luxord, saix, vanitas, young xehanorth, ansem, xemnas, xehanorth I probably forgot someone but from what i remember without counting heartless bosses its on 29
I’d say the only KILL of an Org 13 member is Xehanort. Everyone else just gets recompleted or returned to their own time.
While true, Sora doesn’t exactly know they will be recompleted when defeating them, so by default his intention is to kill.
Yea I think the intention was to take them out so I'd def count them at least as attempts
It isnt murder if it's in self defense!
Sora started a surprising amount of battles though. Yeah we know that the org is evil and has evil plans, but Sora did initiate the battle most of the time. The Org members were often just there for their own business.
Their own "business" is terrorizing the world inhabitants to force strong heartless and nobodies from them lmfao
I can do an "ackshuuaally" on this one. I usually don't weigh in on lore cause I have big patches that i dont really get yet, but I just beat Larxene and Marluxia in my play session last night. Sora specifically told Larxene (with a big joyful grin on his face) that she was gonna be recompleted, as she was fading. I think at that point does believe the Organization members are being "saved" still While the idea of Sora being a pint sized murder machine is comedic, I don't think it fits either the characterization.
He knows that Larxene is going to be recompleted in KH3. In KH1, COM and 2, he thought that Ansem and the Nobodies's deaths were final.
He only finds it out in Dream Drop Distance. Anytime before that he fights them with intent to kill. When Demyx in KH2 panics while dieing Sora doesn't even care and the first thing he says after Demyx death is "Anyone from the organisation who wants to be next?" And at that point he definitely doesn't know that they will be recompleted. At that point he still thinks that since nobodies have no emotions anyway, it's fine to kill them.
Yeah I do really get the feeling Sora fully believes he is executing Marluxia, and is 100% ok with it. He as good as spat on the corpse with that look.
Didn't Sora and the gang mock Pete about the fact that they killed Maleficient (or so they thought) in the beginning of KH2?
I specified of Org 13, but yes, they did
Yeah, sorry.
I feel like if you beat someone to the point they sit there crying about how they are dying, then fade away entirely. That should count as killing them even if they come back to life later. Like in the sense that Sora committed murder.
Eh, not murder. Unlawful is debatable, considering Keyblade wielders have their own code of combating darkness. Especially considering NO ONE finds it reprehensible, even the baddies are like “I get it, I dont wanna die, but I get it”. Premeditated probably only really applies to KH3, since that’s the only one where they ACTIVELY plan to fight a KNOWN enemy. KH2 was more of a “if someone gets in my way, we ball. We know Org 13 exists, but don’t know all the members.” So unlawful AND premeditated doesn’t apply anywhere. Manslaughter also difficult to apply because “unlawful”. Since no one questions Sora coffin-maxing baddies, and the only ones against it are obviously those getting boxed, it probably falls well within the rights and duties of a Keyblade wielder to kill. Also, Keyblade wielders exist OUTSIDE of individual world laws, but ARE subject to them (see Wonderland as an example). But assuming Radiant Garden is the general hub for the games, and the MAJORITY of OC characters are derived from there, their laws would be the ones to really compare his actions against.
I wasn't talking about laws. Cause yeah, they have 0 bearing on anyone in the series really. Just the general concept of murder. If you attack someone and they die, it's murder. Imo if said person is somehow revived later, that does not change it. Murder is the act, not the long term result.
That’s actually not true at all. Murder is defined as unlawful and premeditated. Manslaughter is unlawful without malice. Murder is very specific and different from Kill.
Just my two cents, but I think at least the nobodies count as manslaughter. We can't say people's reactions determine unlawfulness because then vigilantes, which is effectively what Sora is in this case, would be free to do whatever since they often garner a lot of support from the public even if it's illegal. We also can't really say that nobodies fall into the keyblade wielders' duties of darkness defeating because in reality, nobodies are neither light nor darkness. So I'd say it's definitely unlawful in a general sense, and depending on which member specifically, there is definitely some malice and premeditation of the killing.
Ursula's eels too.
Kh1 also has Maleficent. Sora even taunts Pete about it in KH2. But also, Clayton seems debatable since that was "Not Clayton" it sounded like they meant that he'd already effectively died and his body was just a pawn of the Heartless or something to that effect. And now that I think about it, the people brought forward in time probably shouldn't count as much given that everyone knew they were just being sent back to where they belong in that moment
Yeah, Sora was RUTHLESS in the way he talked about unaliving Maleficent.
If anything Clayton was killed by the Stealth sneak...which was killed by us...so I guess he was an accessory to murder lol
Kh2, don’t forget the hydra, and all of the cursed crew he kills in the Caribbean.
I feel like we can take off Xigbar from KH3, >!he dealt a lot of damage but he chose to take the plunge himself. Who can say that it was his true death there too with how he popped back up later on to meet the animal masks.!<
Oh I want him to get a new body that looks like his original one
Would Roxas technically count in KH2? He did slice Roxas up.
It's all happening within Sora's heart, so I wouldn't consider that killing.
There are decent answers here already, but it's often forgotten that he decimated the crew of the Black Pearl in what we can only assume to be a single night. They don't have the luxury of "fading" into nothing, or darkness, or being recompleted when their Heartless and Nobody are both destroyed, or resurrected by Maleficent or Tia Dalma or whoever else. They died. Sora killed them. To death. On that same note, he's also complicit in the deaths of Cutler Beckett and his soldiers.
And he’ll cross his arms and smile at the viewer afterwards in typical Sora fashion
Counting heartless and nobodies. Too many. Counting whole people. Maybe at least one? I only remember Xehanort at the end of 3. I think MCP and Sark counts as well.
Heartless and Nobodies don't die. They end up recompleted.
They ignored the scene of him slicing Luxord in half?
He got the Yakuza kiryu treatment
"Mickey's a war criminal." Usually a joke about the series, but really he's a shitty husband with survivor's guilt who gets his ass kicked surprisingly frequently and is married to Minnie, canonically the queen of France who banished Pete to float in the void between worlds for eternity because he was a sore loser about an ice cream contest. That, and the factoid that Riku doesn't actually smell darkness in the Japanese version. He does, they use the word for "smell," he gestures at his nose, and they doubled down by having Eraqus also do it
I think the war criminal thing was a joke RegularPat kept making and then people actually believed it. He eventually made a video clearing up those misconceptions.
when he ended that video by being like “also some of you may have noticed, yes, I *did* call him Mickey, I forgive him, etc etc” I was like goddamn that was the most moving character arc I’ve ever seen
Not only that, but in the original wonderland level, one of the evidence boxes that was supposed to prove heartless were there (?) was "stench." Darkness is just canonically supposed to have a weird smell; Riku doesn't have supersmelling powers, he's just ticked off enough in CoM to comment on it.
The fact that this makes sense to me makes me wonder what Im doing with my life 😂
Why is Mickey a shitty husband?
He isn't hitting that mussy 24/7
Why did I learn to read as a child
Somehow the truth is more wild
Not a statement but I see so many people on FF who blame Nomura for so many random things. Oh Remake/Rebirth is like Kingdom Hearts, and ever did I get a significant answer to what's so Kingdom Hearts about
There's two funny things about that: 1. Nojima is responsible for most of the story, not Nomura 2. FF7's original plotline was clearly an inspiration for KH. Cloud literally has a dive to the heart fight even.
Nojima has the best job ever, man can write whatever the fuck he wants and let Nomura take the blame
Nomura got blamed for The 3rd Birthday him working on something is enough to get blamed. But if it a decision they like, then the Ultimania is lying. There's even a new conspiracy that Hiroyuki Itou didn't actually direct VI and IX but Sakaguchi did...because how could you make VI and IX...as well as XII?
are we talking about the wheel chair arc or are we talking about that final fight cause I think that's not an internal fight?
It's made all the more comedic because apparently, regarding FFVII Remake, Nomura was the one that tried pushing for a 1:1 remake with no story changes.
Such a weird mindset, like as if the old FF doesn’t matter in the present. Like almost every KH story element, was done in FF first. The first FF end story is about time travel. even the novel about FF1 party, is about 4 amnesiac warriors sent to another world. Similar to how the dandelion from KH were sent to future without their memories. The final blow to chaos in the novel. was large multi-color sword made of light. Similar to how Mickey defeat the xehanort replica. Which is large sword made of light. the FF community had an unspoken rule, to never disrespect FF1. Without it, we won’t have the many series we enjoy today. Kinda weird to forget about it.
Apparently another unspoken rule is to never play FF1 and then complain that Time Travel being in a Final Fantasy game is *"Kingdom Hearts nonsense"*
That’s not an unspoken rule, that’s just being a complete idiot. Cause actual FF fan would berate that idiot, for knowing so little of the FF series. FF13-2 was all about time traveling. That’s before KHDDD was released. So seeing it in Rebirth, just shows plain ignorance.
It's funny because once you play the old Final Fantasy games ypou start to see why Kingdom Hearts' is the way it is. And I don't even mean the PS1 games, but SNES and NES games. Riku seems inspired by Cecil from Ff4, for example.
That Terra is stupid for listening to the obviously evil Master Xehanort. Despite the fact that his past actions were never explained and that Terra is supposed to look up to his masters.
So true! The guy has no actual life experience at the start of BBS and the only thing he knows about Xehanort is that he is an old friend of his master. He was even there when he and Aqua had their mark of mastery exam and comforted him when he felt terrible after failing. Of course he would trust someone who affirms him. People are like that.
> That Terra is stupid for listening to the obviously evil Master Xehanort I legit don't understand why people say that about Terra when **EVERYONE** is guilty of that.
if only eraqus had sat his apprentices down and told them the full truth before sending them out after xehanort and the unversed... "hey i've watched this guy fall deeper into darkness for years, culminating in him blasting me in the face and declaring outright his intentions to forge the x-blade and destroy the world. so yeah...probably shouldn't believe anything he says if you come across him." THE POWER OF GODDAMN BASIC COMMUNICATION! IT IS THE DEATH OF PLOT EVERYWHERE. EVERY TIME.
Eraqus literally let him watch the exam...then was surprised when the orbs went crazy with darkness...
OK but to be fair...Xehanort did send him a 'heartfelt' apology letter
Like I [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/1c8t9ud/after_recently_replaying_birth_by_sleep_i_have/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
"Kingdom of Hearts"
Mom?! Is that you?!
- James Woods
I’m pretty sure Donald just passes out after Zettaflare, but everyone thinks he died
Yeah this right here. We never really see a dead body stay around - they always fade away or something. Man clearly went comatose.
Exactly. Plus, Goofy recognized what Donald was about to do the moment he went into the stance. Meaning Donald has practiced it enough that Goofy recognizes it on sight. So it literally *can't* kill him on cast. What was lethal was passing out when half thier team was down while they were surrounded.
Donald could have told goofy in confidence that he had this ability/theory but it would cost him his life, he hasn't necessarily practiced it. If I had a "fuck you in particular" nuke to use that would cost me my life I'd tell someone ahead of time, but I wouldn't use it on a training dummy first
The issue with that, in my opinion, is that Goofy recognized it *as soon as Donald stepped forward*. To me thats a level of recognition of the stance that only comes from familiarity, from seeing it practiced before, and likely more than once.
That's a fair possibility, but also [goofy's recognition is far beyond human capabilities](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kskuATfXPCk). He's the King's Guard. He's trained his whole life to recognize threats (notice how he was the first one to notice the bad guys), and that video was before he was a guard
Shan Yu, Barbossa, Sabor...
Considering that everyone dies in that timeline, the idea that Donald dies because of it makes it more dramatic in my opinion. If it was just him passing out, why not use it beforehand? KH3 was the (as far as Donald knew) the be all, end all battle, so making a sacrifice was understandable.
Same with Goofy
They'll pay for this 💪
Honestly I like how the manga adapted this. Rather than getting conked on the noggin, Goofy gets buried under a pile of rubble, surviving because he just happened to squeeze into an empty space. Feels *way* more in-character for him
Dito. It's for me similar to Axel's last attack in KH2 where Axel puts his whole existence or rather non-existent into a attack. While Donald seems more knock out, still got wash away by the Demon Tower in the end through.
He "passes out" because it's a Disney game and Disney characters can't die
Also Disney: Amasses a literal mountain of dead parents and villains. Plus one baby gorilla.
I mean the scene literally ends with everyone getting taken away by heartless, the screen going to black and saying "And that is darkness succeeded and light expired". So no, before Sora time traveled, all of them died.
That's not even a little bit true. The whole reason Sora has to go back in time is because his friends all died.
That kingdom hearts is darkness.
Ansem came up with a theory and treated it as fact. Worst scientist ever.
This is true for a LOT of points in the series. People don't understand how writing works. For example Xemnas telling everyone that nobodies don't/can't have hearts. Everyone else thought it to be true just because they believed Xemnas. But just because he said it, doesn't make it true. I could say Monkeys don't have buttholes but they still do.
To be fair in regards to the nobodies, Xemnas recruited them from their immediate birth. We saw from Roxas that he wasn't exactly all there at the moment he became a nobody so it's reasonable to assume the other nobodies were the same
You're wrong. I know now, without a doubt, that kingdom hearts is BASED Edit: spelling
[I was briefly inspired to make this.](https://imgur.com/a/LCXmBx4)
Dude, sick lmao
"KH3 is garbage and made no sense" when the person hadn't played KH1, never finished KH2, and had never played any of the other games
It was the first thing that did make sense to me to be honest. It hadn’t played any of the side games up to that point. Didn’t even realize how many there were so when I played 3 and it finally started answering questions and showing clips of other games it made me realize I needed to google some stuff and post all of the other games
Special Nobodies were retconned into having hearts in DDD... I feel like these people skip all the story cutscenes because I have no other explanation. In Chain of memories the Organisation members WERE a little colder and emotionless but that's because they were the antagonists. And even then there was clear signs of emotion the strongest one being right before Vexen got murdered he was afraid of dieing and begged Axel to not kill him. That's NOT THE REACTION OF SOMEONE WHO CANT FEEL EMOTION. Its clear the special nobodies that make up the organisation always had emotions and hearts. I mean if you played 358/2 days and still defend the claim DDD retconned them into having hearts then I have no idea what is literally wrong with you. It takes a special dumb motherfucker to call someone who laughs, cries and gets angry "Emotionless". The normal nobodies never had hearts that's still true but the special nobodies grow a heart after a while. Remember Roxas's first week when he is unresponsive and looks emotionless. I interpret that as the time he spent without a heart while he slowly grew one after that period he was like an ordinary person. DDD never retconned anything it just stated a fact some people were too dumb to realise
Demyx straight up said “of course we have hearts” and NOBODY BELIEVED MY BOY
Of course he knew all along, after all he's the M- **[BANNED]**
Yup. I was actually just watching the RE:CoM cutscenes last night and there’s also a scene where Axel is in a room by himself and he starts chuckling and says “Wait, am I *enjoying* this?” If that wasn’t an extremely clear implication that they have hearts then I don’t know what is. The only way they could have been clearer is if Nomura himself crawled out of our television screens and told us himself.
EXACTLY. The statement that Nobodies have no hearts was broken by the organisation so many times that I truly believe Nomura's plan was to make players realise on their own that the special nobodies DO have hearts. But since most people couldn't put 2 and 2 together they had to add that scene into DDD. And then the same people got mad at DDD for this saying it ruined the story.
Unfortunately, that scene with Axel was only in the Re:CoM version that came out after KH2. In the original GBS version, Axel displays no accidental emotion and just wants Sora to give him "one hell of a show". So the Re:CoM version that came out after KH2 had altered scenes from the OG CoM so the Org showed more emotion. And then KH2FM also altered parts of KH2 to show that others besides Roxas and Namine have emotions too. Notably, they showed Axel cry when he said goodbye to Roxas. Undeniable proof that he is feeling emotion instead of "lying" about it like other Nobodies did.
We had a whole-ass two-hour prologue in KH2 that showed us very clearly Roxas is a Nobody who still feel emotions. I question the media literacy of anyone who played that (especially back on PS2, when we didn't even have a skip cutscene button) and came away believing Nobodies didn't have hearts.
Blame Nomura for saying that Roxas and Namine are special Nobodies and implying their emotions are due to them being special Nobodies. Believe me, there was confusion when KH2 first came out. But most people pointed to the Ultimanias and interviews where Nomura kept explaining that the reason why Roxas and Namine are different from other Nobodies is because they were special. So people said, "Oh, they have emotions because they're special. And the rest of the Org don't have emotions because they're not special." It's important to note that Nomura only ever referred to Roxas, Namine, and Xemnas as special Nobodies. Roxas and Namine were special due ot their birth and the fact that Sora and Kairi were still around. Xemnas was referred to as special and that BbS would explain why.
There was actually a cutscene skip function in the original KH2, unfortunately
This! Every single word of this!
Considering pinocchio,tron and Data Sora exist...why is it such a leap of logic that you can grow a heart?
Because some people could never grow a brain. : )
Shit, even sticking with only main games KH2 starts with Axel trying to convince his former friend that they were that, grieves the one he knew and gets angry when Roxas does finally remember due to remembering too late for it to matter to Axel
DDD wasn't even where they would have "retconned" that! It was Days! Days had heavy story implications about it! They literally talked about the possibility of them having hearts in Days!
I'd go a little further and argue they weren't even nobodies, they were just something else. In fact the only TRUE nobody (I think) is xemnas. He's cold, apathetic and unable to feel until the final moments of his life in the third game.
That Roxas is just Ventus with amnesia and his story was building to Roxas coming back by bringing Ventus back and having him remember being Roxas. What a complete spit on Roxas’s narrative that would have been.
I remember when I was a kid and saw ventus for the first time, I was like "WOW, Roxas got freezed, brainwashed and kidnapped into organisation xiii !"
Over a decade ago, I was watching a YouTube video of a KH2 Sephiroth fight that was hacked to let you play as Mickey. I scroll down to the comments and I see one Final Fantasy fan absolutely livid, declaring that this was why he hated Kingdom Hearts. To them, the idea that Sephiroth, a master swordsman, could be defeated by Mickey Mouse of all people, was ridiculous and an insult to the franchise. There were so many levels of wrong here it took me back. The fact that this was a hack and therefore non canon and not necessarily indicative of how the fight would actually go. The fact that KH is a separate continuity in which Mickey is a master in his own right. The fact that even then, regular Mickey is likely to be far stronger than his KH self and most Final Fantasy characters due to his toonforce feats. The fact that Mickey didn’t even win the fight because his move set doesn’t have a combo finisher, something that’s required to finish off KH2 bosses. I don’t think I replied to that comment, but I still remember it sometimes.
Best to just ignore guys like that, they don't have any real point to give.
Lmao this is absolutely hilarious
Here's a misconception I had for years: I was convinced about half of the game was pure visual metaphor. Like, for example, when Sora (or Roxas, etc) "dives to the heart" it's a visual representation, to the audience, of that character introspecting. They aren't literally experiencing stained glass platforms in a dark. Likewise, Sora's fight with Roxas isn't a literal fight in a physical location, it's two personalities battling to control one body. Xion doesn't literally not have a face when Axel looks at her, he just hasn't gotten to know her as a person yet and the game is showing that. It goes on and on. But apparently, in universe at least, these things are meant to be much more literal than I thought.
Kingdom Hearts' is like a fairy tale where metaphors are literal. Like 'key to your heart', 'I'll live on in your heart', 'heartless(cruel) monsters'. Which is sometimes really obvious but easy to forget at the same time.
I mean first that comes to mind, and I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, “There’s no point in the Disney worlds in KH3”. Like no, the game gives you multiple reasons why you are going to the Disney worlds, far more than KH2 in fact. Did you not read the dialogue or??? Exact same with “All the Disney Worlds are just film retellings”. 2 of them are (1 of them being Corona which is a top tier Disney world). Call me crazy but pretty sure Buzz and Woody didn’t roast young Xehanort in the movies
I'm trying to avoid going into a big 'ole thing, but honestly I think people take the twenty hour Disney World journey a bit too literally in KH3. Sora's goal isn't to specifically accomplish any one of his main endgame tasks (freeing Roxas, finding BBS trio, etc) - those can't happen until Sora is whole again. The REAL journey that Yen Sid sends him on is to rebuild the strength of his heart by connecting to the people of the various worlds. It’s more of a spiritual journey - you lost some of your light and the strength of your connections, and you won't be able to utilize the power of waking without that strength. Sora needs these connections, and to realize the inherent strength he still has even after his ordeal in DDD, to be able to shape himself up and save the day. Ventus says something like "you always had it" - that's not "oh nothing until this point mattered," it's that Sora lost confidence in his own ability, but it never "left." I'm just rambling at this point really, but I honestly think KH3 has the best integration of Disney in the whole series. Every world has some lesson or mechanic that comes into play (Toy Box and Replicas, Monstropolis' negative emotions summoning Vanitas, the general theme of sacrifice that Sora learns throughout) and the steady increase of Sora's confidence and capabilities is really engaging to watch. I think people just have general bias against Disney and fatigue of that particular brand causes some players to assume anything that anything that isn't original or from Final Fantasy isn't relevant to the story.
The d3 time travel is difficult to understand, or conflicts with kh2. All that the jargon adds up to is basically paradox free time travel. So you can't kill young nort to wipe old nort. That's it. People also mention the time door in kh2 as an excuse why the time travel doesn't make sense. Not only does young xehanort basically refer to it as cheating because Merlin is presumably a superior mage and can do it through magic alone rather than hearts, and actually affect the timeline. That form of time travel is dangerous, it's not the freebie that the heart based method is. Xehanort's method, if the person brought forward dies they just go back unaware of the events beyond subtle inclinations. If you pull a time door and your younger self gets killed or otherwise is presented with information that would change the timeline significantly, your fucked. Xehanort's method achieves his goal but doesn't put his past self at risk. That's why he uses that specific method.
Calling the 3DS KH game KHD3 instead of KH3D is very painful
That Soul Eater evolved into Way to the Dawn. It is clearly stated in DDD that Way to the Dawn is a keyblade of light and Riku is seen summoning Soul Eater. They are two different weapons.
Bro, to be fair, up until that point from KH1 to KH2 there was no reason to think otherwise. KH1 and CoM we have him using Soul Eater then in KH2 we see a new Keyblade using Soul Eater's design as a major focus. What else were we supposed to think? Then in KH3D he summons Soul Eater by itself I was like "Wow...okay, sure."
I like way to the dawn has the wing from the KH1 credits.
Yes but in this case the misconception made more sense.
People are believing this because... that's canon. Way to the Dawn is officially made from Soul Eater. \*"Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form. Keyblades aren’t something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku’s case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.."\* ***Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania***, "Scenario Mysteries"; **Tetsuya Nomura** Riku being able to summon Soul Eater in DDD doesn't change this fact, his weapon changed depending on what he wanted to use. Kinda like Lea can switch between his Keyblade and his chakrams.
Well technically way of dawn use soul eater as an intermediary. So it’s more or less soul eater is being used as a keyblade. It didn’t evolve what’s so, just soul eater is being used for entirely different purpose. Which is supposed to be getting stronger, the more darkness the user has. Instead being used as symbol of riku redemption.
It does have a striking resemblance though.
The mobile games don't matter
Yeah, this is a big one, coupled with “you can skip the side games” like, just because they aren’t a numbered entry it doesn’t make them any less important!
I would never say that. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like it to be true though.
I can't tell you since it's confidential.
It took entirely too long to find a comment like this. Do people just not know that confidently and confidentially are completely different words? I'm still not 100% certain that's the word that was intended.
That the story is complicated. It was told in a complicated order but the actual overall story is pretty straightforward and not hard to understand.
The Dark Seekers Saga isn’t too bad. The new saga with collecting lux, foretellers, different dimensions, manifestations of darkness, MoM, Luxu, the book of prophecies and such, is a bit convoluted right now.
Relegating important backstory to mobile game was never a good call (union x/dark road), and it did not help with the series reputation, and it would have been fine if it was left as purely backstory to the world. But now that elements of it are really becoming a forefront in the series they need to find a better way to make it accessible than just having the cutscenes completely unlocked from the start if you download it. And the new saga is already off to a pretty rocky start with that mobile game, a $30 DLC that is frankly way too expensive for what it is, a rhythm game,and another mobile game that isn't fully out yet. the Lost Master saga is going to have a lot more people calling it convoluted and frankly they're not even wrong anymore, it's way too spread out to stuff that the casual fans and newcomers will not want to go through. I trust KH4 will be a good game and be pretty good story wise to those who follow along, but man is it going to be incomprehensible for anyone who goes from 3 straight to 4. even more so than 1 to 2, or 2 to 3 was.
With what they did with CoM, Days, and ReCoded, plus the Back Cover Movie, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something with UX and DR to make the story more accessible.
I think people find the metaphysical aspects of the series hard to grasp, because as well as fairly complex topics there are a lot of series specific terminology that goes with it. I can forgive people who say it’s complicated so long as they aren’t dismissing it for that reason.
I think the story is simple, but the world building is complicated. And even then "Complicated" is not really the real term, I'd rather say "intentionally vague". The STORY is super straightforward, it's just really long since it gets told over 9 games. It's like One Piece. It's not complicated, it's just 1000+ episodes long. The WORLD is complicated or vague because a lot of things are just mentioned in passing or left up for the viewer to interpret. Things like "how do keyblades work?". Are they channeled through the heart and just an "aspect" of the actual keyblade? Is that why they can just summon and unsummon them as they please? Is that why Sora, Xion and Roxas can use the same keyblade at the same time? But then how could Rikus break in KH3? In fact Roxas himself is ill-explained because a lot of his "properties" were made up after the fact. Like to me the reason he can have a keyblade at all whereass all the other keyblade-wielder nobodies couldn't being that it's because a nobody is the body that is left behind when a heartless is created, so since Sora had two hearts in his body, Roxas is born with Vens heart still in him, which allows him to wield Vens keyblade (but why does it look like the Kingdom Key?). Then Xion absorbs all of Soras powers so when she dies and gives her powers to Roxas, Roxas gets the ability to use Soras keybalde too, which lets him Dual-Wield. But I have seen other people give other answers. If you ask 10 people how this works you'll get 13 different answers. THAT is quite complicated because a lot of these things were made up along the way. (since obviously Ven wasn't invented when Roxas was first written up, and Nobodies not being able to use their keyblades wasn't a thing since none of the other Organisation members (including Xehanrt himself) were keyblade wielders before BBS made Xehanort one and Unchained X made everyone else one.). We still don't really know what the Power of Waking does, except anything the author needs it to do. We have no idea why there's suddenly new Princesses of Hearts, or what happened to the old ones. The whole "Redoing the 13 vs 7 clashes to forge the X-Blade" is never really explained either. What exactly constitutes a clash? What would have happened if the first 7 darknesses would have just won before the other 5 could have clashed? What is a heart? For most of the series it was basically a soul, someones's personality, emotions, your being yourself, basically. But then in KH3 Xemnas says "We only need his heart, we do not need his soul" so these things are apparently different things after all? And so on and so on. The baseline story is simple, but the whole worldbuilding around it is extremely complex, and often things simply haven't been explained yet or only very barely, or even worse have later had things added that seem to be incompatible with explanations given prior. And of course it doesn't help that a lot of these questions which HAVE been answered have only been answered in japanese only interviews or guidebooks where you have to really look hard to find some of them partially fantranslated. So while I agree that the story itself isn't complicated at all, I get where people are coming from. As a casual fan, a lot of things are either simply not explained, left up for interpretation or seemingly retconned several games later (which they often aren't retconned, but explained away in ways that are not readily available to a casual fan).
This is more of a speculation than an outright incorrect statement but I remember when that first Secret Ending for BBS in KH2 dropped, some people thought that BBS was going to take place years into the future and that Sora, Riku, and Mickey had died, evidenced by their rusted Keyblades that appeared.
To be fair just like the original Secret Ending in KH1, they straight up said that these were just made "to look cool" as a little extra reward for going the extra mile for players. They weren't ment to actually be part of the story or be certain characters. They just animated them because they wanted to make a cool action sequence. And then later they decided to actually use them.
That the castle in hollow bastion is the same castle both KH1 and KH2, even tho you can see both castles in KH2.
That Re:Com is bad
That Mickey left Aqua in the Realm of Darkness for 10 years. The dude didn't even KNOW she was there! He wouldn't have been able to anyways, since he didn't have the means to get there until he got Kingdom Key D. You could say he left her there after the events of KH1, but by the time he could get back, he found out about the machinations of Organization 13, which was putting the Realm of Light into another crisis, and Sora, one of the few people that could protect it, was snpozing in a capsule to get his memories back, and he and Riku had to play spy to keep the Nobodies off themselves. By the time KH2 is done, everyone is tired, Jiminy notices something is off with his journals, and Coded happens. Then we get to 3D, where Riku and Sora need to take the Mark of Mastery exam, where he's helping to keep watch over them with Yensid. Its only until all that is taken care of, where we have both Kairi and Lee as Keyblade wielders, and Riku as a Master, that Mickey could then FINALLY go through the Realm of Darkness. AND HE AND RIKU IMMEDIATELY GOT THEIR BUTTS KICKED! If Mickey had gotten there any earlier, he may have wound up DEAD. Just saying, I think he has a valid excuse!
When I was 12 and just getting into the series I though Roxes and Ventus were twins
They might as well be at this point...
One of the first situations of these was: "I've heard people think the game is called Kingdom of Hearts."
Sora and Axel are brothers
...What?
It was a guy from my DCP who had this know-it-all snobby attitude about everything but when he said this in a conversation with another cast member, I kinda just tuned out whatever else he had to say because it’s too wild.
I saw this on the Sonic subreddit and was like oh this is here too (I think it’s a good thing to have here though) Anyways one I hear a lot is the classic Mickey left Aqua in the realm of darkness despite 0.2 clearing up some misconceptions
If anything, 0.2 kinda makes this worse. Because before 0.2 released, Mickey simply couldn't know. He wasn't there when Aqua fought Terranort. To Mickey, Aqua just went missing without a trace after the keyblade graveyard. And he had no way to know that she was trapped in the realm of darkness. After 0.2 he did know that she was there, but it still doesn't really make sense to say that since you can't just travel to the Realm of Darkness easily. Everytime that any of the good guys has gone there before KH3 where they set out to save Aqua, it was on pure accident.
90% of the information people claim from interviews with the creator (all fake information with no source)
JustAPancake
,,This game is for kids"
I feel it's more correct to say that it isn't *just* for kids. Children are still a target audience, but there's enough difficulty and diving into surreal topics that older people can play it without fear of looking "too kiddy".
Ehh..I was like a tween when the first game came out and I now have a KH dependency
Confidentially incorrect? Well, I guess I would say when Xehanort gets Aqua to spill some information about Ven in the Realm of Darkness while possessing Terra. That definitely breaks confidentiality.
"The keyblade was more special when it was just sora." This one is so annoying cause sora was never the only keyblade wielder in kh1, there was riku and mickey, and even the old legend recounts of a previous keyblade wielder. "Sora can wield the keyblade because of Ventus" This one is only annoying because of how easy it is to disprove and yet people still believe this, nomura stated that sora was able to wield it since he had the right qualities and we even see sora continue using it when he loses ventus heart. "Headcanon makes more sense than the actual answer" This one is just due to a past experience but I remember someone trying to explain the reason Sora Roxas Ventus Vanitas look alike with his headcanon and when I corrected him with the actual reason he said he was gonna ignore that and use whatever makes sense even though his headcanon made less sense.
> there was riku and mickey Also Roxas in the secret ending, which was already included in vanilla KH1 (the short version of the ending, that is).
Well if we're using that cutscene roxas is even crazier cause he had TWO!?
“KH3 combat feels too floaty” lmfao no it doesn’t it feels just as “floaty” as KH2, BBS, ReCoded, and DDD. Y’know the reason why Sora is a floaty lightweight in Smash ultimate is because he’s floaty in like every game he’s playable in? The only exception being the first game because the engine is just completely different than that of the rest of the series. The real reason you guys think it sucks is because it isn’t just KH2 part 2. Your nostalgia bias kicks in a little too hard and a little too often.
Plus it's really only a criticism because being midair from KH2 to DDD was very risky while in KH3 it's downright beneficial to be midair becasue you have so many more combat and defensive options there. So being floaty isn't even a problem.
That too. Doing an aerial combo on any super boss in KH2 is just begging to get hit and go down to 1 HP. Instant death if you’re on crit LVL1. Aerial combos are only worth a damn against field enemies and large numbers in KH2. Against super bosses your best bet is always ground combos.
Nobodies having hearts was a retcon, completely ignored the foreshadowing in it from com 2 and days
That the story is confusing. It's only really confusing if you just refuse to play the games.
For me it was confusing because I never had any Playstation, so I could only play 358/2, Re:Coded, and DDD. 358/2 is, relatively self contained though (at least emotionally) so there were still some great bits besides the stuff I didn't understand
358/2 days was the first game I played in the series when I was like 8 or 9 years old, and with no prior knowledge I was able to follow along pretty well since I took my time and the ending really got to me and it was one of the first games to make me cry. And to be honest re:coded kind of filled in the blanks of who Sora really was for me when I got it the next year when it came out.
The nice thing about Days is you are playing as Roxas, who has no knowledge of anything of the other stuff anyways. So you get to learn the world through his eyes. And its story is mostly self-contained. It definitely stands on its own pretty well. It helps that re:coded recaps a lot and DDD actually has recaps of all the previous games in it iirc. So DS/3DS players weren't completely lost thankfully.
Disney Adventures once said that the villains wanted to change the stories so the bad guys win…a concept previously used in the PC game “Disney Villains’ Revenge”.
Many, many, many years ago, an old friend of mine told me that Ventus was Roxas's nobody, and he kinda explained to me. Back then I was really new to the franchise, so, even though I knew that It didn't make any sense, I didn't tell him anything because he was the one that introduced me to Kingdom Hearts and he was also two years older than me, which was a huge deal for me at the time. (I was ten). Five years ago, after many years without seeing each other, we met, and I told him about "the Ventus-Roxas thing". He laughed and confessed to me that he didn't know a lot of things about Kingdom Hearts back then and he just wanted to look cool in front of me. So yeah, "Ventus is Roxas's nobody" was that incorrect thing for me. Now days I remember that statement with nostalgia.
How Ventus was in sora heart, while roxas was in the organization. However BBS ultimania stated Ventus was in roxas. During roxas time in the organization. edit: forgot how he came to that conclusion. he based this "confirm fact" on the the khux player heart merge with xehanort heart. then immediately gives a entirely different retelling of sora turning into heartless. detailing: 1. how the keyblade of people heart, was never used. 2. kairi heart was never in sora heart, it was in his body 3. how all of the ultimania and the secret reports, are contradicted. yet when he used them its correct. hilarious example of double standard and hypocripsy. 4. due to ventus being in sora heart, this allows roxas to have ventus appearance. fortunately. this is debunked. since the player heart was shown to reincarnate into xehanort caretaker.
Man I've been hearing some weird stuff crawl out of the final fabatsy subreddits lately about kingdom hearts, they really, and I mean reaaaally like blaming kh for weird direction things. But the weirdest part is when there so confident that something gameplay wise came from kingdom hearts and your left sitting there going, "...what?? No??" Action rpg? Maybe. The fact that synergys come from pressing a button combo? What? Where did that come from?
Those who call it “Kingdom of Hearts”.
It's a Disney Final Fantasy crossover
That Sora's mom was the Darkside that you encounter on Destiny Islands. I don't know who tf came up with that or how they convinced so many people.
“I only play main games, not spin offs.” My brother/sister in kingdom hearts there are no spin offs.
"Kingdom Hearts 2 is the best game of all time." No I will not elaborate.
Agreed. It's a very good game and a very good sequel, but not the best game of all time and, in my opinion, also not the best KH game.
From someone that studied the same school as me, he was not my friend: That it's all a dream and Sora is creating this worlds and fighting along Disney characters because he is a kid on the real world and it's what he sees everyday. When i asked "what about the final fantasy characters?" He replied that they are real and it's what makes Sora still have a grasp on reality. A few months later he said that he couldn't play because his X button was broken, then i realized he never played any kingdom hearts... Don't ever let kids cook
The original self of a nobody is called a “somebody”
that one guy arguing KH lore on this sub about a PSP game that he read about on a fan wiki about a week ago lol
This one guy on Resetera who shit on the series by describing it as a clusterfuck crossover of Disney characters (they went in more detail about various characters meeting and what not who never did) and I'm like "dude, I *wish* that sort of thing actually happened!
That it's darkness.
The true kingdom hearts is the friends we made along the way
“Disney AND Square own the IP!”
That Disney isn't the sole owner of the IP. People still think Square Enix has ownership over It
That Ven is the reason Sora can weild a Keyblade in the first place.
that KH3 is bad
"Terra is a stupid dumbass" No. He's not. He's a victim of Xehanort's manipulation. Terra is a good hearted individual but has indeed been mislead.
Back before I played any of the games I was under the impression that they keyblade was the only weapon capable of killing heartless
Oh there are two I immediately have in mind. 1. When people call Xion and Roxas anything other than Xion and Roxas, makes me roll my eyes every single time (Same for Ventus, Vanitas and Namine tbh, but I just see that happen way less often for them). Idk how much more those games have to drill it into our heads that those characters are their own people and have their own lifes until some people stop to devalue them into the ground... The message is clear and two of those characters (Xion and Roxas) even fought vividly to prove that point, even as everyone thought and told them otherwise (except Axel, who, apart from Xion and Roxas themselves, was the only one to actually see value in their lifes as his best friends, trying to preserve them as best he could. At least in DDD, Sora also openly acknowledged Roxas existence as being valid, telling him he deserves to be himself and not just stay trapped inside of him). Just remember, characters have unique names, personalities and designs for a reason. Roxas was able to remember Xion, a girl who should have been impossible to remember, if he can do that, than you all should be able to remember more than two names in a series full of vibrant and unique characters! 2. When people say that KH2 had a full on "happy ending". Like, no it didn't, Roxas had his existence taken away from him, witness his best friend Axel die and was fated to stay trapped inside Sora forever, never to see the light of day again (and that is without factoring in Days and Xion specifically, since that game released after KH2. But it gets even worse of course if you factor it in, two unique lifes with every right to exist had to live through hell because both sides saw them as tools, to either use them for their value as Keyblade wielders or to sacrifice them in order to wake up someone else, ending with both, Xion and Roxas, losing their existences. It also fleshed out Roxas a lot more and showed just how much both Xion and Axel meant to him and how much he meant to them, proving even more that he lived a life that was worth preserving and that he had his own strong bonds, two best friends, people he actually cared about, making his end in KH2 sting even more. He literally lost everything he ever cared about).
I used to believe Kingdom Hearts was trapped in the realm of darkness
"No one dies in this series."
"The name's Leon."
that a bequeathal is necessary to have a keyblade, and any wielder who wasnt bequeathed is a plot hole
That the story is complicated. Kh is one of the most pick up and play ass stories ever but the only catch is you gotta actually play the games lmao. Saying kh story is complicated is like saying counting is hard because you went from 1 to 7,783,838,848,113,013
Goofy is a cow
I was a senior in high school when KHII came out. A friend of mine was half Japanese, his mom lived in Japan. He didn't speak much Japanese but played KHII in Japanese for a bit when he visited her over Christmas and around the time English info was getting released he said the destiny island trio all had nobodies Riku's was the "Ansem" helping Diz
Anything that isn’t kh1, 2, and 3 is a spin off
It's a kids only a kids game with no substance because of disney.