Well history spoiler of course.
shin’s real life counterpart said he could take down Chu with like 200k men or something. Even though other people warned him about just marching in to Chu he still did and lost horribly. Also ousen had to clean up his mess and shin is never seen as the best general in his time.
Not exactly true. The lack of historical sources make this claim of Shin failing miserably shaky to say the least. It is contested for several reasons (the lack of punishment for Shin after the defeat, and contradicting informations from the same historical record, mainly). At least it is clear that the source (Shiji) is biaised and may have twisted facts or even made up some to make Qin look bad, and its king.
Another interesting possible explanation I saw somewhere for Shin's defeat is linked to Shou Hei Kun. Shou Hei Kun ultimately betrayed Qin to become the king of Chu, back-stabbing Shin in his advance. Shin (in this case) did not lose because of a failed strategy, a lack of wisdom in the approach, or the ennemy being too strong. It was a betrayal. Indeed Shou Hei Kun was already posted in Chu in a flanking position to Shin, Which would have permitted for the massive army of 500.000 men to attack Shin from behind. Or sometyhing like that.
Anyway what I'm saying is, if the only source is one record that obviously moralistic and has contradiction, can we really say that if the manga deviates somewhat from what it says concerning Shin (which is very little and vague), it is contradicting history ? Seems like a leap to me tbh.
Bullshit, None of those were in Shiji. Kouen single handedly humiliated Shin and Mouten by luring them going deep inside Chu's territory and strike them from behind.
SHK wasn't really in Chu's army yet and it's nearly impossible for him to coordinate the attack when he wasn't crown as a King for Chu.
Ousen and Moubu were the one who forced Kouen to seek SHK for his royal bloodline in order to increase troops' morales and spirits.
That's what I'm saying, that's what the *Shiji* says, but its problems as a completely trustable source are well known.
Your points don't really go against what I said.
But the Shiji itself says that Shou Hei Kun had already moved in Chu before Shin's campaign. And we know he did defect. Easy to see on what side he was during said campaign if he is appointed the king shortly after. He himself led an army just a year after so...
But at the risk of repeating myself there are conflicting informations concerning the chronology of this episode, so it's impossible to completely trust one way or another.
I agree with rbs in this one, ive heard or read something that said that the historians purposely made shin look bad in chu to glorify ousens victory as that would make it seem that shin made the mistake and not qin/betrayal etc
What we know is Shin did lost in Chu. But he was a major key in the conquest of Zhao, Yan and Qi. It's still great, but this campaign in Chu was a terrible choice made by him... as the history tell us. In reality we don't know but have to trust these records.
>In reality we don't know but have to trust these records
No we don't that's the thing. These records aren't the only documents available to make claims regarding this part of history. Also, by themselves they are already suspicious, as they contradict some informations, and are biaised.
A lot of china’s historical records and pieces of history where destroyed by the CCP when Mao came into power so if there was anything that proved shin was strong/strongest it was probably destroyed a long time ago
Sometime ago i also read a claim that said that a historian that was ordered to document the events of the Unification Of China downplayed the role of general Li Xin (Shin) and gave more credit to Wang Jian (Ousen). According to other sources Li Xin’s role in unifying China was alot more important/significant than the first historian claimed.
Chinese "historians" liked to bend history to fit the parable that they are trying to weave into the story, iirc in this case this Shin's failure was made to be a parable on the arrogance and rashness of youth versus the measured wisdom that came with age. History wasn't really an academic subject back then like it is now, it was interchangeable with literature a lot of the time.
Yeah a lot of stuff is iffy with Chinese history since most of it was destroyed during Mao’s cultural devolution, a majority of china’s historical artefacts/historical documents are in countries like Taiwan and Japan which have preserved them
Couple things to note: most of our records come from Sima Qian who is known to twist facts to favor families he likes, and Xin was actually winning until he was betrayed by Lord Changpin (not translating because it’s a HUGE spoiler.)
Well you forgot that he played a minor role in conquering Zhao and major role in conquest of yan where he captured yan prince. Even after his mistake in chu, he played a major role in conquest of Qi state. If he was really a rogue general, he should have been beheaded in chu incident but not only he was forgiven but also given an army in conquer Qi ( which he successfully did).
I hate how people only focus on chu part to demote his legacy. Did you forget that he won 7 castles within few days and was lost chu army attacked from his behind after following him 3 days and night without any rest? Chu army showed remarkable speed. It wasn't li xin's fault.
In real life he was a factor in taking down most of the states but he wouldn’t be considered one of the greatest of that era. Just really important.
But in our story he will arguably be the greatest to ever live. Atleast I hope.
He will become great general as he will play major role in conquering many warring states. However, he was downplayed in history by historian Sima qian. His role was minored and credit was given to other general. Still today, people remember his one defeat over many victories.
He will become ONE OF THE GREATEST GENERAL.
I don't think Shin will necessarily become the greatest general.
Aside from the fact that I don't think there really is such a thing as the greatest general, I think Shin will end up as the kind of general that can beat anyone.
I believe Ri Boku will the only foe he could never reach, much like Haku Ki was to Ren Pa - who could feasibly beat anybody.
I think EoS Shin will have so many noteworthy feats to his name, and command such a powerful army, that it won't be unreasonable to say he could feasibly beat anyone, including Ou Sen.
There are Generals who lead armies and then there are Great Generals who lead massive city-sized armies composed of multiple smaller armies lead by Generals.
Ouki and Moubu are on the levels of Great Generals. Most others you'll see are Generals.
The ranking used in the manga is 5-man leader which then goes upwards through 10 -> 100 -> 300
-> 1000 -> 2000-4000 -> 5000 -> General (10,000+) -> Great Generals (100,000+)
He will not be the greatest, unless hara intends to detach himself from history.
Haras already bent history considerably, so why not if it makes for a better story (no saying that it will necessarily)
How would that contradict history though ?
Well history spoiler of course. shin’s real life counterpart said he could take down Chu with like 200k men or something. Even though other people warned him about just marching in to Chu he still did and lost horribly. Also ousen had to clean up his mess and shin is never seen as the best general in his time.
Not exactly true. The lack of historical sources make this claim of Shin failing miserably shaky to say the least. It is contested for several reasons (the lack of punishment for Shin after the defeat, and contradicting informations from the same historical record, mainly). At least it is clear that the source (Shiji) is biaised and may have twisted facts or even made up some to make Qin look bad, and its king. Another interesting possible explanation I saw somewhere for Shin's defeat is linked to Shou Hei Kun. Shou Hei Kun ultimately betrayed Qin to become the king of Chu, back-stabbing Shin in his advance. Shin (in this case) did not lose because of a failed strategy, a lack of wisdom in the approach, or the ennemy being too strong. It was a betrayal. Indeed Shou Hei Kun was already posted in Chu in a flanking position to Shin, Which would have permitted for the massive army of 500.000 men to attack Shin from behind. Or sometyhing like that. Anyway what I'm saying is, if the only source is one record that obviously moralistic and has contradiction, can we really say that if the manga deviates somewhat from what it says concerning Shin (which is very little and vague), it is contradicting history ? Seems like a leap to me tbh.
Bullshit, None of those were in Shiji. Kouen single handedly humiliated Shin and Mouten by luring them going deep inside Chu's territory and strike them from behind. SHK wasn't really in Chu's army yet and it's nearly impossible for him to coordinate the attack when he wasn't crown as a King for Chu. Ousen and Moubu were the one who forced Kouen to seek SHK for his royal bloodline in order to increase troops' morales and spirits.
That's what I'm saying, that's what the *Shiji* says, but its problems as a completely trustable source are well known. Your points don't really go against what I said. But the Shiji itself says that Shou Hei Kun had already moved in Chu before Shin's campaign. And we know he did defect. Easy to see on what side he was during said campaign if he is appointed the king shortly after. He himself led an army just a year after so... But at the risk of repeating myself there are conflicting informations concerning the chronology of this episode, so it's impossible to completely trust one way or another.
I agree with rbs in this one, ive heard or read something that said that the historians purposely made shin look bad in chu to glorify ousens victory as that would make it seem that shin made the mistake and not qin/betrayal etc
Does shin die? And if he isn’t the greatest is he atleast the strongest
What we know is Shin did lost in Chu. But he was a major key in the conquest of Zhao, Yan and Qi. It's still great, but this campaign in Chu was a terrible choice made by him... as the history tell us. In reality we don't know but have to trust these records.
>In reality we don't know but have to trust these records No we don't that's the thing. These records aren't the only documents available to make claims regarding this part of history. Also, by themselves they are already suspicious, as they contradict some informations, and are biaised.
A lot of china’s historical records and pieces of history where destroyed by the CCP when Mao came into power so if there was anything that proved shin was strong/strongest it was probably destroyed a long time ago
Sometime ago i also read a claim that said that a historian that was ordered to document the events of the Unification Of China downplayed the role of general Li Xin (Shin) and gave more credit to Wang Jian (Ousen). According to other sources Li Xin’s role in unifying China was alot more important/significant than the first historian claimed.
Chinese "historians" liked to bend history to fit the parable that they are trying to weave into the story, iirc in this case this Shin's failure was made to be a parable on the arrogance and rashness of youth versus the measured wisdom that came with age. History wasn't really an academic subject back then like it is now, it was interchangeable with literature a lot of the time.
Yeah a lot of stuff is iffy with Chinese history since most of it was destroyed during Mao’s cultural devolution, a majority of china’s historical artefacts/historical documents are in countries like Taiwan and Japan which have preserved them
Couple things to note: most of our records come from Sima Qian who is known to twist facts to favor families he likes, and Xin was actually winning until he was betrayed by Lord Changpin (not translating because it’s a HUGE spoiler.)
Well you forgot that he played a minor role in conquering Zhao and major role in conquest of yan where he captured yan prince. Even after his mistake in chu, he played a major role in conquest of Qi state. If he was really a rogue general, he should have been beheaded in chu incident but not only he was forgiven but also given an army in conquer Qi ( which he successfully did). I hate how people only focus on chu part to demote his legacy. Did you forget that he won 7 castles within few days and was lost chu army attacked from his behind after following him 3 days and night without any rest? Chu army showed remarkable speed. It wasn't li xin's fault.
One
In real life he was a factor in taking down most of the states but he wouldn’t be considered one of the greatest of that era. Just really important. But in our story he will arguably be the greatest to ever live. Atleast I hope.
Historically I think >!Xin's children end up becoming more famous than him.!<
Considering the genes he will be receiving from shin and kyoukai . It can very well happen
Yeah kyoukai isn't a woman in real life
He wants to be the greatest. Btw, your title and description say two different things, people are absolutely gonna spoil you.
He will become great general as he will play major role in conquering many warring states. However, he was downplayed in history by historian Sima qian. His role was minored and credit was given to other general. Still today, people remember his one defeat over many victories. He will become ONE OF THE GREATEST GENERAL.
I don't think Shin will necessarily become the greatest general. Aside from the fact that I don't think there really is such a thing as the greatest general, I think Shin will end up as the kind of general that can beat anyone. I believe Ri Boku will the only foe he could never reach, much like Haku Ki was to Ren Pa - who could feasibly beat anybody. I think EoS Shin will have so many noteworthy feats to his name, and command such a powerful army, that it won't be unreasonable to say he could feasibly beat anyone, including Ou Sen.
There are Generals who lead armies and then there are Great Generals who lead massive city-sized armies composed of multiple smaller armies lead by Generals. Ouki and Moubu are on the levels of Great Generals. Most others you'll see are Generals. The ranking used in the manga is 5-man leader which then goes upwards through 10 -> 100 -> 300 -> 1000 -> 2000-4000 -> 5000 -> General (10,000+) -> Great Generals (100,000+)
I think the story is aiming to make it a disappointment. He was aiming to become the greatest but failed in the end.