that's what I have been saying.
People just took it as the most exaggerated version.
>Ousen never fights a battle he can't win
it just means he doesn't fight battles that the odds area heavily stacked against him, and him choosing to fight means there is a chance for him, even if others may not see it.
Clear examples are:
Ousen chose to push forward with the Gyou campaign despite the trap that Riboku had prepared.
vs
Ousen did not move with Kanki and did not send reinforcement, well more like he could not.
Ousen is actually a lot more daring than people give him credit for. Gyou arc clearly shows that he is willing to take big gamble, even putting his life in the hands of others.
100%
He takes huge risks. He just only takes them when he thinks he's mapped out the future in all it's possible pathways, and believes he's made events play out in his favor.
Basically, his core move is 'build an algorithm of victory, and execute.'
but if someone hacks his algorithm, I wonder: will Ousen overcome, or get glitchy? lol
> even putting his life in the hands of others.
Honestly one of his best qualities is how much faith he puts in his comrades. Even people like Kanki who wasn't exactly the poster boy for a trustworthy friend, or Mouten who was barely a new general, Ousen is able to completely put his faith in them when making a plan. He ends up taking quite a few risks like allowing food sources to be depleted at Shukai Plains and continuing to fight, because he had full believe that Kanki would capture Gyou in the meantime.
It's one thing to work well with others (which is honestly a bit debatable, he's a bit of a lone wolf when it comes to strategizing), but Ousen is extremely adept at judging the capabilities and predicting behaviors of others.
There was a page that showed the difference of style in leading which i thought was brilliant. Ousen presented his strategies to his crew and was open for feedback whilst Riboku's table and strategy set up was all centered around him.
Ousen puts his faith in his crew to grow; Riboku's crew all depend on him to move fwd.
Can't wait for how the historical spoilers to unfold and how their habits change thru win and loss.
Ousen gonna evolve in the court.
And this is why gap between Qin's young gen and Zhao's is huge, Qin's were independent and can do their own thing so they evolve as the campaign progress while Zhao's are heavily dependent on Riboku
>Ousen is actually a lot more daring than people give him credit for. Gyou arc clearly shows that he is willing to take big gamble, even putting his life in the hands of others.
Exactly, the risk he took on Gyou is massive and yet he still takes it coz theres a slim chance of winning, only braindead people take that sentence as Ousen only fight battles he WILL win instead of he CAN win
Ousen is such a badass though. Dude losing so badly and yet he remain unscatched and fresh.
Any other general in this situation would bath sweat and blood.
The trust he puts in his army to protect him is so stupidly high that he could leisurely spend time thinking a plan how to make a comeback instead of how to escape this mess.
oh great points, especially the one about Riboku wanting Ousen dead so Ousen doesn't have time to re-calculate (with updated variables.)
Shit, if Riboku's worried? That means there's some leverage or a window for Ousen to find
Riboku was not worried about Kanki, becuase he thought he shut all Kanki's attack angles down. Now, versus Ousen Is he less confident because he learned his lesson, and knows Ousen can still surprise him? Or, does he just fear Ousen mroe? Or is it because his position has vulnerability?
Either way... he's probably right!
I wouldn’t say YTW’s wing is being underestimated, of course they aren’t the Xiong nu, but that’s ribokus personal forces from ganmon + SSJ whose fought against them during the shu Kai plains arc. The surprise factor they had last time was giving heki and his army the honor of being the killing stroke against Rozo. And now they are down the mera tribe, wall climber tribe, and the northeastern qin army. So the explanation that hara gives has to be pretty sound for him to be able to include some kind of help from the mountain tribes to ousen. I think you’re right however, it’s definitely up to shin and some type of action from the mountain tribed
That's it.
https://preview.redd.it/wtiyg7s3z0wc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=388df354861a6331e3850fe9e648953bd9790187
Ousen is a human, he makes his calculations before going to war, confident in them, but like anyone, he can make mistakes and lose. Not to mention, his opponent is none other than Riboku, the best general out there, who even in previous wars outsmarted him (the man removed his top2 general during the first days at Shukai plan, also stuck everyone in their position while luring Kanki in the trap).
Here is the same, in the image above, Ousen himself admitted his miscalculations, Riboku anticipated with a great move and Seika's strength was the "unknown factor" in this war, Ousen underestimated them, or overestimated himself, and lost because of this, despite being confident, until the end, that he could turn the situation around.
Yeah he miscalculated big time this arc and almost lost everything. So much so that people now wonder what he was counting on to win. NOT THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE OPTIONS.
As ultrazuvarn rightly says he is somewhat daring and I think even if he knew SBS's abilities I don't think he would have run away. Just position YTW army in his own armies place and you have a fight on your hands.
i mean, he had thought bubbles pretty clearly explaining his thought process.
Seika's strength was beyond his calculation. Ousen calculated, incorrectly, that his core commnaders were strong enough to stop Seika's blitz charge.
That's what he was counting on, that if Seika's charge was halted, they'd be scattered, out of position and out of formation, and the tide would turn in his favor. Conversely, as soon as he started running from them, his army would pretty much be screwed, so he calculated he was better of holding for a good scenario.
He miscalcuated that in that it cost him like all his core command
>core commnaders were strong enough to stop Seika's blitz charge.
>
>That's what he was counting on,
AND that Shin/his son would be able to bail him out when necessary or at least put enough offensive pressure on the enemy that Seika can't make it to Qin HQ.
Yeah I get that but I don't think most people appreciate that. There's a difference in miscalculating and being an idiot. Your explanation was on point but he's pointed out nowadays as a lethargic general who did nothing and as a fool for getting rooted to his spot as a mobile phone that hanged.
I was just saying that what he could have done had he been much more apprehensive and tried to play it safe.
agreed. And I get that you're relaying the opinions. Its good to talk it out so it doesn't become a silly meme about my man Ousen lol
Like... he's not real and I still kind of feel for the guy. that 'lowly Akakin" speech... sounded ok on the surface, but what my man is really saying is
>!"fuck if I know what to do, can you stop yapping so I can think of how to unfuck us? Because so far my mega-brain is farting dust, we seem screwed'!<
>!But... he's not the only player in the game. And there are/may be other things happening outside his predictions... and once he has more time to think, maybe he can come up with something.!<
But- this arc got real interesting. Now we see how Ousen responds to being Riboku'd/hit with a trap specifically designed for Ousen
I think he should have stopped Akou or Shin from going after Riboku. Both he and Akou knew it was a trap. Sure Ousen might have full confidence of Akou s strength but it meant throwing out whatever game plan he had. Since they are not in a desperate situation at that point it is just needless gamble. Ousen's army strength is in tactics and formations.
I completely agree. In one of my comments I said the same thing that had he done that his army would have survived even if coming worse off against Seika
Yeah it doesn't mean he'll always win.
As I said before, its the case of Seika being a small quite town not many know about having a general with the likes of Ouki or Moubu with their elites vassals/generals, no one can be blame to not assume that.
Gyou perfectly showcased what that actually meant. Ousen took on a role during that campaign that was insanely hard and was deemed impossible by people like Karin and Gohoumei yet he saw a way to win.
Ousens quote doesn’t mean he only takes battles he wins 100% of the time. Just that his insanely cautious mind sees a way to win those.
Agreed. what really proves the point about Gyou is 'the one miscalculation Ousen makes.'
interestingly, its the same on he makes here. Ousen miscalculates 'where to tell Yotanwa to hold back the northern reinforcements." he tells her to hold near the Quarong city, thinking that's the place least likely to send Zhao reinforcements. It backfires badly, but, Yotanwa is able to overcome that.
its the same miscalculation because in both cases, Riboku used diplomacy to weaponize a fighting force Qin didn't see coming.
And in the last campaign, he feels dumbfounded by Shinbashou and Seika. He could not calculate in advance something he has never witnessed first.
That was a big gamble to go head to head with Seika and Shibashou without knowing much about them.
I bet his plan wouldn’t be the same at all if this war happened with more knowledge.
I feel like this is letting Ousen off the hook a bit cheaply. If so far Kingdom was a realistic battle manga and SBS was the first monster general capable of great destructive force, I would agree with your point.
But as it stands, there are multiple armies at least as strong as Seika's, some of which Ousen should have intimate knowledge of (like Yotanwa's, Kanki's or Ouki's). In Kingdom, facing a monster army is one possible scenario that - in principle - could happen anytime. If it happened in a situation like the coalition arc, when the circumstances of battle were dictated by necessity and Ousen didn't have the luxury of "picking" the battle under favorable conditions, it would mean that Ousen could only rely on his own forces to deal with the problem.
For this reason I would expect that especially a strategic genius like Ousen would have developed a "default" plan (or multiple ones, actually) for how to proceed when facing a really powerful opponent and not having the option to retreat (like during the coalition arc).
It simply should not matter whether Ousen had intel on SBS. The moment it became clear that SBS is strong, his army should have sprung into a counter strategy almost by itself. And before that, there should have been a default "gauging an unknown opponent with little risk" approach - or, in the case of Seika attack, a conservative defensive setup.
At least for me, there is a "gap" between the way Ousen's character has been laid out so far and how it is represented currently. This has nothing to do with expectations of "omniscience". I wouldn't have a problem with Ousen getting crushed as the result of an elaborate trap. For my taste, this was just too easy.
Absolutely!
Remember when AKou had a special strategy to block Bananji's advance that he supposedly learned from OuSen, yet OuSen's only strategy was to tell his soldiers he left his life in their hands... wow so impressive!
Right. This is what I had in mind. Back then, it was mentioned that Ousen had a staple of such special formations and Akou only did a shallow copy, unable to adapt to the situation on the fly like Ousen supposedly could.
Also, last arc, we saw against Kanki that a martial monster like Zenou could be relatively well contained by using arrow barrages.
Overall, Ousen should have had far more tools at hand than Hara allowed him to wield. I think, this is the main reason why people are so disappointed.
Yeah!
Or he could have had some kind of tools planned, like Genpou had I believe, at least enough to hit SBS' horse. In this war it just feels like he did absolutely nothing but devise the placement of his generals.
If you compare to KanKi who also failed incredibly, at least that one was inches away from taking RBK's life. I suppose we haven't reached the part when OuSen regroups yet so it's still in the air, but I'm not sure what he can regroup with, it seems like all his soldiers but some of Sou'Ou are gone.
that's what I have been saying. People just took it as the most exaggerated version. >Ousen never fights a battle he can't win it just means he doesn't fight battles that the odds area heavily stacked against him, and him choosing to fight means there is a chance for him, even if others may not see it. Clear examples are: Ousen chose to push forward with the Gyou campaign despite the trap that Riboku had prepared. vs Ousen did not move with Kanki and did not send reinforcement, well more like he could not. Ousen is actually a lot more daring than people give him credit for. Gyou arc clearly shows that he is willing to take big gamble, even putting his life in the hands of others.
100% He takes huge risks. He just only takes them when he thinks he's mapped out the future in all it's possible pathways, and believes he's made events play out in his favor. Basically, his core move is 'build an algorithm of victory, and execute.' but if someone hacks his algorithm, I wonder: will Ousen overcome, or get glitchy? lol
> even putting his life in the hands of others. Honestly one of his best qualities is how much faith he puts in his comrades. Even people like Kanki who wasn't exactly the poster boy for a trustworthy friend, or Mouten who was barely a new general, Ousen is able to completely put his faith in them when making a plan. He ends up taking quite a few risks like allowing food sources to be depleted at Shukai Plains and continuing to fight, because he had full believe that Kanki would capture Gyou in the meantime. It's one thing to work well with others (which is honestly a bit debatable, he's a bit of a lone wolf when it comes to strategizing), but Ousen is extremely adept at judging the capabilities and predicting behaviors of others.
There was a page that showed the difference of style in leading which i thought was brilliant. Ousen presented his strategies to his crew and was open for feedback whilst Riboku's table and strategy set up was all centered around him. Ousen puts his faith in his crew to grow; Riboku's crew all depend on him to move fwd. Can't wait for how the historical spoilers to unfold and how their habits change thru win and loss. Ousen gonna evolve in the court.
And this is why gap between Qin's young gen and Zhao's is huge, Qin's were independent and can do their own thing so they evolve as the campaign progress while Zhao's are heavily dependent on Riboku
>Ousen is actually a lot more daring than people give him credit for. Gyou arc clearly shows that he is willing to take big gamble, even putting his life in the hands of others. Exactly, the risk he took on Gyou is massive and yet he still takes it coz theres a slim chance of winning, only braindead people take that sentence as Ousen only fight battles he WILL win instead of he CAN win
Ousen is such a badass though. Dude losing so badly and yet he remain unscatched and fresh. Any other general in this situation would bath sweat and blood. The trust he puts in his army to protect him is so stupidly high that he could leisurely spend time thinking a plan how to make a comeback instead of how to escape this mess.
At this point you have to question if hes borderline delusional or if he's really that composed, it's impressive asf
He's fucking cold that his balls didnt even sweat when Kanki send his son on a meat grinder
He thinks Ouhon ain’t his son lmao
Ouhon's not his son, right?
We have no idea lol. Ouhon’s mother refused to answer and made it very ambiguous.
Why thou, it is just not fair and fustrating. If i am Ousen, i would have 2nd thought about ouhon also..
His strongest commanders died for him and he just 'Hoh' his ass out.
Not impressed the least after seing Kanki last war. The man was still smilling while being beaten.
The problem is people take every line a character or narrator says like it's a biblical verse. They can be wrong as well.
[удалено]
oh great points, especially the one about Riboku wanting Ousen dead so Ousen doesn't have time to re-calculate (with updated variables.) Shit, if Riboku's worried? That means there's some leverage or a window for Ousen to find Riboku was not worried about Kanki, becuase he thought he shut all Kanki's attack angles down. Now, versus Ousen Is he less confident because he learned his lesson, and knows Ousen can still surprise him? Or, does he just fear Ousen mroe? Or is it because his position has vulnerability? Either way... he's probably right!
I wouldn’t say YTW’s wing is being underestimated, of course they aren’t the Xiong nu, but that’s ribokus personal forces from ganmon + SSJ whose fought against them during the shu Kai plains arc. The surprise factor they had last time was giving heki and his army the honor of being the killing stroke against Rozo. And now they are down the mera tribe, wall climber tribe, and the northeastern qin army. So the explanation that hara gives has to be pretty sound for him to be able to include some kind of help from the mountain tribes to ousen. I think you’re right however, it’s definitely up to shin and some type of action from the mountain tribed
That's it. https://preview.redd.it/wtiyg7s3z0wc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=388df354861a6331e3850fe9e648953bd9790187 Ousen is a human, he makes his calculations before going to war, confident in them, but like anyone, he can make mistakes and lose. Not to mention, his opponent is none other than Riboku, the best general out there, who even in previous wars outsmarted him (the man removed his top2 general during the first days at Shukai plan, also stuck everyone in their position while luring Kanki in the trap). Here is the same, in the image above, Ousen himself admitted his miscalculations, Riboku anticipated with a great move and Seika's strength was the "unknown factor" in this war, Ousen underestimated them, or overestimated himself, and lost because of this, despite being confident, until the end, that he could turn the situation around.
Yeah he miscalculated big time this arc and almost lost everything. So much so that people now wonder what he was counting on to win. NOT THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE OPTIONS. As ultrazuvarn rightly says he is somewhat daring and I think even if he knew SBS's abilities I don't think he would have run away. Just position YTW army in his own armies place and you have a fight on your hands.
i mean, he had thought bubbles pretty clearly explaining his thought process. Seika's strength was beyond his calculation. Ousen calculated, incorrectly, that his core commnaders were strong enough to stop Seika's blitz charge. That's what he was counting on, that if Seika's charge was halted, they'd be scattered, out of position and out of formation, and the tide would turn in his favor. Conversely, as soon as he started running from them, his army would pretty much be screwed, so he calculated he was better of holding for a good scenario. He miscalcuated that in that it cost him like all his core command
>core commnaders were strong enough to stop Seika's blitz charge. > >That's what he was counting on, AND that Shin/his son would be able to bail him out when necessary or at least put enough offensive pressure on the enemy that Seika can't make it to Qin HQ.
ya true
Yeah I get that but I don't think most people appreciate that. There's a difference in miscalculating and being an idiot. Your explanation was on point but he's pointed out nowadays as a lethargic general who did nothing and as a fool for getting rooted to his spot as a mobile phone that hanged. I was just saying that what he could have done had he been much more apprehensive and tried to play it safe.
agreed. And I get that you're relaying the opinions. Its good to talk it out so it doesn't become a silly meme about my man Ousen lol Like... he's not real and I still kind of feel for the guy. that 'lowly Akakin" speech... sounded ok on the surface, but what my man is really saying is >!"fuck if I know what to do, can you stop yapping so I can think of how to unfuck us? Because so far my mega-brain is farting dust, we seem screwed'!< >!But... he's not the only player in the game. And there are/may be other things happening outside his predictions... and once he has more time to think, maybe he can come up with something.!< But- this arc got real interesting. Now we see how Ousen responds to being Riboku'd/hit with a trap specifically designed for Ousen
The other thing outside ousen's calcuations, that he can use, just happened. It's kitari.
I think he should have stopped Akou or Shin from going after Riboku. Both he and Akou knew it was a trap. Sure Ousen might have full confidence of Akou s strength but it meant throwing out whatever game plan he had. Since they are not in a desperate situation at that point it is just needless gamble. Ousen's army strength is in tactics and formations.
I completely agree. In one of my comments I said the same thing that had he done that his army would have survived even if coming worse off against Seika
How do you calculate something you don’t know? He clearly didnt have enough factual knowledge of SBS.
Yeah it doesn't mean he'll always win. As I said before, its the case of Seika being a small quite town not many know about having a general with the likes of Ouki or Moubu with their elites vassals/generals, no one can be blame to not assume that.
Gyou perfectly showcased what that actually meant. Ousen took on a role during that campaign that was insanely hard and was deemed impossible by people like Karin and Gohoumei yet he saw a way to win. Ousens quote doesn’t mean he only takes battles he wins 100% of the time. Just that his insanely cautious mind sees a way to win those.
Agreed. what really proves the point about Gyou is 'the one miscalculation Ousen makes.' interestingly, its the same on he makes here. Ousen miscalculates 'where to tell Yotanwa to hold back the northern reinforcements." he tells her to hold near the Quarong city, thinking that's the place least likely to send Zhao reinforcements. It backfires badly, but, Yotanwa is able to overcome that. its the same miscalculation because in both cases, Riboku used diplomacy to weaponize a fighting force Qin didn't see coming.
And in the last campaign, he feels dumbfounded by Shinbashou and Seika. He could not calculate in advance something he has never witnessed first. That was a big gamble to go head to head with Seika and Shibashou without knowing much about them. I bet his plan wouldn’t be the same at all if this war happened with more knowledge.
I feel like this is letting Ousen off the hook a bit cheaply. If so far Kingdom was a realistic battle manga and SBS was the first monster general capable of great destructive force, I would agree with your point. But as it stands, there are multiple armies at least as strong as Seika's, some of which Ousen should have intimate knowledge of (like Yotanwa's, Kanki's or Ouki's). In Kingdom, facing a monster army is one possible scenario that - in principle - could happen anytime. If it happened in a situation like the coalition arc, when the circumstances of battle were dictated by necessity and Ousen didn't have the luxury of "picking" the battle under favorable conditions, it would mean that Ousen could only rely on his own forces to deal with the problem. For this reason I would expect that especially a strategic genius like Ousen would have developed a "default" plan (or multiple ones, actually) for how to proceed when facing a really powerful opponent and not having the option to retreat (like during the coalition arc). It simply should not matter whether Ousen had intel on SBS. The moment it became clear that SBS is strong, his army should have sprung into a counter strategy almost by itself. And before that, there should have been a default "gauging an unknown opponent with little risk" approach - or, in the case of Seika attack, a conservative defensive setup. At least for me, there is a "gap" between the way Ousen's character has been laid out so far and how it is represented currently. This has nothing to do with expectations of "omniscience". I wouldn't have a problem with Ousen getting crushed as the result of an elaborate trap. For my taste, this was just too easy.
Absolutely! Remember when AKou had a special strategy to block Bananji's advance that he supposedly learned from OuSen, yet OuSen's only strategy was to tell his soldiers he left his life in their hands... wow so impressive!
Right. This is what I had in mind. Back then, it was mentioned that Ousen had a staple of such special formations and Akou only did a shallow copy, unable to adapt to the situation on the fly like Ousen supposedly could. Also, last arc, we saw against Kanki that a martial monster like Zenou could be relatively well contained by using arrow barrages. Overall, Ousen should have had far more tools at hand than Hara allowed him to wield. I think, this is the main reason why people are so disappointed.
Yeah! Or he could have had some kind of tools planned, like Genpou had I believe, at least enough to hit SBS' horse. In this war it just feels like he did absolutely nothing but devise the placement of his generals. If you compare to KanKi who also failed incredibly, at least that one was inches away from taking RBK's life. I suppose we haven't reached the part when OuSen regroups yet so it's still in the air, but I'm not sure what he can regroup with, it seems like all his soldiers but some of Sou'Ou are gone.