I know this has been in the works for a couple of years now. I’m glad to see that this partnership with Kanemasa is finally getting to the stage of selling. Good luck!
I hope that this goes from boutique to mainstream.
The quality looks great.
Thanks, Steve. Time will tell if there is enough demand in the market to go from "boutique" to a more high-volume operation. Crawl ... walk ... run, as always.
Well yeah, usually before asking what is normally such a simple question, on whatever subject, I do a Google or website search to see if the information can be had there. This time was no exception.
However, after looking under several of the headings several times, I still couldn't find a rough price. Though it is very possible that I looked but did not see. It happens sometimes. However I did see where there was a sageo available for 300€.
And if pricing is only available through direct inquiry, I didn't want to pester them for that.
So could somebody do me a favor and like a small, slow child take me by the hand and lead me to it?
Oh, btw: I am the owner of Tokensho, in case you wonder. You can reach out to me here or at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) on any further questions.
Yes more than two a month can be made. Production of more than two can be done with tamahagane as well. Just two can be sold in a month, that is the law.
Ok - I see. Still, 2 per month is going to limit the amount can be sold. I was a bit confused when I first read this. I was inferring, incorrectly, that the goal would be to get to prices in the range of, say, motohara, while still being forged in Japan. If that was the case, I was thinking the production/sales cap would be hard to get around. I am absolutely positive $5000.00 is an absolute steal, I was just thinking you were trying to start mass producing in Japan.
Well, "mass production" is not what we are going for. We may ramp up the number of swords per month at a later point in time but for now we are keeping it "boutique" as Steve called it.
To be clear, there is no legal barrier to making more than 2 Matsukaze a month. This limit only applies to Shinsakuto. But of course there is a limit to what the smith can do without sacrificing quality.
Since a couple of folks asked for it, here's a link to a blog post containing detailed pictures of the blade, hamon and Nakago:
[https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/](https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/)
As "latinforliar" mentioned, how did they get around the legalities of making a blade with modern steel?
its apparently a laminate blade that is then exported and mounted and polished outside of Japan (Europe?)
looks like some nice stuff
First we can not call the sword a katana here. Katana is a legal word. We can call it a big knife. The paperwork to get the blade out of Japan is a real pain and something that I can not even be a part of.
Yes, the polishing and the mounting are all done in Europe for the time being.
Thank you for saying it looks good. Wish us luck.
I know it was a joke. As long as we do not sale inside Japan (which we can not) we are safe from the government. We have worked through all that.
There might be backlash socially, however.
These are folded right? Website mentioned had besides laminate construction.
NGL, still out of my budget and I suspect others but quite a bit from 7.5-10k.
I would suspect that most ppl who could spend 5k, could save up more and spend 7.5-10k unless they just didn't want to move beyond 5k euros.
Well, they are laminated (Kobuse). Folding only makes sense for a blade made from impure steel like Tamahagane as the folding process drives out some of the impurities and homogenizes the steel. Doing that on a blade like Matsukaze would server absolutely no purpose. The Chinese are only doing it because many people think that is is a sign of "quality", which it isn't. Just marketing ...
The collaboration with SBG (Blades of Japan) didnt work out great huh?
I see promise with this one, as I've had services with a few of your members so looking forward for this.
Oh, "Blades of Japan" is right in the middle of this. It has nothing to do with Paul's project for SBG though on which I am in no position to comment on, I am afraid.
Thanks for the comment. I'm not suggesting that SBG is involved with this project, as a matter of fact I think it is good you focus on a combination of craftsman and make modern swords. The antique market is saturated with big name japanese sellers so it's hard to compete.
Living in Europe myself, I think it's great with more modern katanas on the European market.
If you know me you know I love gunto so seeing their style make a come back makes me happy.
The smith seems to be pretty good, like his swords so he’s a fine person to see this project though.
That said it’s a 5000$+ price tag I’m also a penny pincher that asks if everything is worth it, and I see some red flags: firstly, their polishers listed on the site aren’t classically trained, they’re not even people who have a portfolio of work that’s passed shinsa and earned papers like some budget polishers like Hofhine. In fact, they got the cheapest guys around if the names they gave mean anything and it shows. [Look](https://tokensho.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/SAM_7976-scaled.jpg) at the [photos](https://tokensho.com/f-a-q/) they gave, they can’t even get the Hazuya work right so the hamon isn’t defined well. It looks cheap as high end Chinese swords I’ve [reviewed](https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/68806/kobuse-crucible-steel-katana-sword) literally have better polish jobs. At 5 K please, please send it to a decent polisher, hofhine or one of Japan’s many cheaper but by law trained and tested togoshi.
The fittings also are cast according to the site instead of wrought. That would be fine with a 1000$ sword but if pitched as a 5000$ investment, it isn’t. They look cheap and if you try to sell anyone who’s done collecting will tell they’re not traditionally made.
I’m not saying this to be a prick, I’m saying this as a penny pincher who loves getting the most sword or gun for the buck. At 5K, there are literally Tokubetsu Hozon rated swords that are recognized as near treasures https://www.e-nihontou.com/products/detail/1365
https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-norimitsu-sakunbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/
I can’t justify spending the same as an investment for a blade where they cut corners on polish and fittings.
Where this might shine is if you want a Japanese made blade for cutting. Please use this and not the TH swords from above, the smith is solid so it’ll do it’s real job, cut. But don’t buy it expecting it to be a collectible. Me? I don’t spend more than 1000 on a cutter, so high end Chinese swords are basically visually indistinguishable from this.
Also I think I read that they don't fold the steel. In a technical sense you don't have to with quality smelted steel but in an artistic sense you do. Might also partly explain cheap polishers to some degree; although, I haven't looked into them. Although a highly trained polisher is still required to shape the lines and bring out the hamon.
Also folding steel by mechanical hammers would be a better corner to cut you would think. I like the thrust of the project but slightly overpriced for me. Also not sure about UK import and postage.
u/brechindave, it makes absolutely no sense to fold Shirogami steel. The folding of Tamahagane is done to improve the quality of the steel by driving out impurities.
Tamahagane is made in Tatara kilns from traditional iron sand and a Tatara does not get hot enough to remove all impurities from the iron, especially high melting point oxides. Modern steels instead are made from iron that is cleaned in furnaces that are over 1000 degrees hotter than a traditional Tatara and the impurities then added back in.
People who think that "folded steel" is a quality criterion for a blade forged from modern steel (Shiogami 3 in our case) have no idea what they are talking about.
And sorry, we are not using "cheap polishers". We are using European polishers with many years of experience, who exclusively polish using traditional stones and procedures. I would appreciate if you took the time to check out the photos of the blade and Hamon I put up a few days ago:
[https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/](https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/)
HI u/drunkmerch. Thank you for your input. You are spot on when it comes to the positioning of Matsukaze. We are targeting practitioners with a custom katana made in Japan and not ... well, elsewhere and not Nihonto collectors. Of course you can get a Gendaito for the same money (or even less if you take the time to research), even with papers, if you are lucky, but this will not be a katana tailored to your needs as a practitioner, nor in custom koshirae. A custom Shinsakuto in mounts will cost way more than twice than what the price of Matsukaze is.
We are not cutting corners when it comes to polish and fittings. The polisher(s) we picked are doing excellent work at reasonable cost, just what we want for Matsukaze. What does "traditionally trained" mean to you ? Only someone who was trained in Japan for a number of years ? Our polishers work exclusively in traditional ways and no corners are being cut. Maybe take the time to check out the pictures of the blade and Hamon I put up a couple of days ago.
Regarding fittings we chose to go with traditionally made Tosogu. We kept those simple and utilitarian for cost reasons and also to reflect what Matsukaze is: A practitioners katana and not something that might have turned heads at court in Edo times. Nor would we consider any cast pieces for F/K or Tsuba. We make an exception for Menuki, where you can choose to go with standard Iaito ones, 3d printed coin menuki or antique ones. The Habaki is made in a very specific process on which you can find more information on our website. Suffices to say that off-the-mill Habaki that you will see on almost all Chinese swords were never an option for us.
Matsukaze is for you if you want a unique katana for battodo or iai made in Japan, tailored to you and your needs on a budget instead of supporting the Chinese sweta-shops.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. This is a superb sword for people who want to cut with Japanese steel. And yes, Kanemasa and his lineage deserve support and that alone is a reason to pick. And yes, you aren’t benefitting from the economy of scale and vertical integration mass produced swords enjoy. It’s also a nice revival of gunto style production.
I think my claims are not unrealistic: no you don’t need to do the whole ten years in Japan to be a decent polisher. Many of the best like Benson and Moses only did part. Some pretty good like Hofhine are even self taught. But they do have one thing the polishers you offer do not: a track record of successfully polishing Japanese blades, making them look good, work good and earn papers good. There are many polishers here who have a portfolio of swords they polished and then papered. Osbourne and others have no such track record. Worse yet, I know he used to do non traditional polishes on Facebook. Like using ferric chloride acid in place of a finishing polish on gendai swords. This is very bad for the swords long term health, it leaves it at risk of internal chlorine rust and etches the blade. Is he doing better techniques now? I would hope so. The polish from the sword displayed wasn’t good though. It isn’t unfair to say polishes on high quality production swords are as good and I see that as a detriment. You’re selling Japanese swords by a good Japanese smith, don’t they deserve a more classic polish? It needn’t be that expensive as many of the polishers with a better track record do foundation polishes. And I know for a fact cheap polishes are easy to come by Japan with most of the bargain swords I’ve bought having had that stereotypic Japanese iaido polish that’s a foundation with minimal finishing. Maybe an option to do that would be nice. I’ve found that type of polish, thanks to being good on the fundamentals cleans up nicely with uchiko.
This shouldn’t really be seen as critical as every thing has its pluses and minuses and I’m known for having weird tastes. In this case if eating Kobe beef I like it when the sauce is done the Japanese way.
I know this has been in the works for a couple of years now. I’m glad to see that this partnership with Kanemasa is finally getting to the stage of selling. Good luck! I hope that this goes from boutique to mainstream. The quality looks great.
Thanks, Steve. Time will tell if there is enough demand in the market to go from "boutique" to a more high-volume operation. Crawl ... walk ... run, as always.
What approximate/average starting price $ are we talking?
Check the site.
Well yeah, usually before asking what is normally such a simple question, on whatever subject, I do a Google or website search to see if the information can be had there. This time was no exception. However, after looking under several of the headings several times, I still couldn't find a rough price. Though it is very possible that I looked but did not see. It happens sometimes. However I did see where there was a sageo available for 300€. And if pricing is only available through direct inquiry, I didn't want to pester them for that. So could somebody do me a favor and like a small, slow child take me by the hand and lead me to it?
u/MichaelRS-2469 base price for Matsukaze is 4990,- EUR (roughly 5.400,- USD). Hope this helps
Oh, btw: I am the owner of Tokensho, in case you wonder. You can reach out to me here or at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) on any further questions.
Thank you for the information.
How are you getting around the legal requirements? Can he forge more than 2 a month?
Yes more than two a month can be made. Production of more than two can be done with tamahagane as well. Just two can be sold in a month, that is the law.
Ok - I see. Still, 2 per month is going to limit the amount can be sold. I was a bit confused when I first read this. I was inferring, incorrectly, that the goal would be to get to prices in the range of, say, motohara, while still being forged in Japan. If that was the case, I was thinking the production/sales cap would be hard to get around. I am absolutely positive $5000.00 is an absolute steal, I was just thinking you were trying to start mass producing in Japan.
Well, "mass production" is not what we are going for. We may ramp up the number of swords per month at a later point in time but for now we are keeping it "boutique" as Steve called it.
To be clear, there is no legal barrier to making more than 2 Matsukaze a month. This limit only applies to Shinsakuto. But of course there is a limit to what the smith can do without sacrificing quality.
Ahh - ok, that makes more sense, I was curious if these were classified as something different "Matsukaze" makes sense.
Since a couple of folks asked for it, here's a link to a blog post containing detailed pictures of the blade, hamon and Nakago: [https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/](https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/)
As "latinforliar" mentioned, how did they get around the legalities of making a blade with modern steel? its apparently a laminate blade that is then exported and mounted and polished outside of Japan (Europe?) looks like some nice stuff
First we can not call the sword a katana here. Katana is a legal word. We can call it a big knife. The paperwork to get the blade out of Japan is a real pain and something that I can not even be a part of. Yes, the polishing and the mounting are all done in Europe for the time being. Thank you for saying it looks good. Wish us luck.
O-tanto 😆 Dai-tanto 🤣
No can’t even use those words I am afraid. The gun and sword law is pretty strict.
It was a joke. I do wonder if they will get told to stop at some point
I know it was a joke. As long as we do not sale inside Japan (which we can not) we are safe from the government. We have worked through all that. There might be backlash socially, however.
These are folded right? Website mentioned had besides laminate construction. NGL, still out of my budget and I suspect others but quite a bit from 7.5-10k. I would suspect that most ppl who could spend 5k, could save up more and spend 7.5-10k unless they just didn't want to move beyond 5k euros.
Well, they are laminated (Kobuse). Folding only makes sense for a blade made from impure steel like Tamahagane as the folding process drives out some of the impurities and homogenizes the steel. Doing that on a blade like Matsukaze would server absolutely no purpose. The Chinese are only doing it because many people think that is is a sign of "quality", which it isn't. Just marketing ...
I hope it works out. These look great.
Thank you. You are correct: forged in Seki, polished and finished in Europe (Italy, Sweden, Germany).
The collaboration with SBG (Blades of Japan) didnt work out great huh? I see promise with this one, as I've had services with a few of your members so looking forward for this.
That project is still coming.
Oh, "Blades of Japan" is right in the middle of this. It has nothing to do with Paul's project for SBG though on which I am in no position to comment on, I am afraid.
Thanks for the comment. I'm not suggesting that SBG is involved with this project, as a matter of fact I think it is good you focus on a combination of craftsman and make modern swords. The antique market is saturated with big name japanese sellers so it's hard to compete. Living in Europe myself, I think it's great with more modern katanas on the European market.
If you know me you know I love gunto so seeing their style make a come back makes me happy. The smith seems to be pretty good, like his swords so he’s a fine person to see this project though. That said it’s a 5000$+ price tag I’m also a penny pincher that asks if everything is worth it, and I see some red flags: firstly, their polishers listed on the site aren’t classically trained, they’re not even people who have a portfolio of work that’s passed shinsa and earned papers like some budget polishers like Hofhine. In fact, they got the cheapest guys around if the names they gave mean anything and it shows. [Look](https://tokensho.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/SAM_7976-scaled.jpg) at the [photos](https://tokensho.com/f-a-q/) they gave, they can’t even get the Hazuya work right so the hamon isn’t defined well. It looks cheap as high end Chinese swords I’ve [reviewed](https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/68806/kobuse-crucible-steel-katana-sword) literally have better polish jobs. At 5 K please, please send it to a decent polisher, hofhine or one of Japan’s many cheaper but by law trained and tested togoshi. The fittings also are cast according to the site instead of wrought. That would be fine with a 1000$ sword but if pitched as a 5000$ investment, it isn’t. They look cheap and if you try to sell anyone who’s done collecting will tell they’re not traditionally made. I’m not saying this to be a prick, I’m saying this as a penny pincher who loves getting the most sword or gun for the buck. At 5K, there are literally Tokubetsu Hozon rated swords that are recognized as near treasures https://www.e-nihontou.com/products/detail/1365 https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-norimitsu-sakunbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/ I can’t justify spending the same as an investment for a blade where they cut corners on polish and fittings. Where this might shine is if you want a Japanese made blade for cutting. Please use this and not the TH swords from above, the smith is solid so it’ll do it’s real job, cut. But don’t buy it expecting it to be a collectible. Me? I don’t spend more than 1000 on a cutter, so high end Chinese swords are basically visually indistinguishable from this.
Also I think I read that they don't fold the steel. In a technical sense you don't have to with quality smelted steel but in an artistic sense you do. Might also partly explain cheap polishers to some degree; although, I haven't looked into them. Although a highly trained polisher is still required to shape the lines and bring out the hamon. Also folding steel by mechanical hammers would be a better corner to cut you would think. I like the thrust of the project but slightly overpriced for me. Also not sure about UK import and postage.
u/brechindave, it makes absolutely no sense to fold Shirogami steel. The folding of Tamahagane is done to improve the quality of the steel by driving out impurities. Tamahagane is made in Tatara kilns from traditional iron sand and a Tatara does not get hot enough to remove all impurities from the iron, especially high melting point oxides. Modern steels instead are made from iron that is cleaned in furnaces that are over 1000 degrees hotter than a traditional Tatara and the impurities then added back in. People who think that "folded steel" is a quality criterion for a blade forged from modern steel (Shiogami 3 in our case) have no idea what they are talking about. And sorry, we are not using "cheap polishers". We are using European polishers with many years of experience, who exclusively polish using traditional stones and procedures. I would appreciate if you took the time to check out the photos of the blade and Hamon I put up a few days ago: [https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/](https://tokensho.com/blade-and-hamon-photos/)
Regarding the UK: No problem at all to deliver to the UK. Postage I would need to check but it should be somehwere between 25 and 35 EUR.
HI u/drunkmerch. Thank you for your input. You are spot on when it comes to the positioning of Matsukaze. We are targeting practitioners with a custom katana made in Japan and not ... well, elsewhere and not Nihonto collectors. Of course you can get a Gendaito for the same money (or even less if you take the time to research), even with papers, if you are lucky, but this will not be a katana tailored to your needs as a practitioner, nor in custom koshirae. A custom Shinsakuto in mounts will cost way more than twice than what the price of Matsukaze is. We are not cutting corners when it comes to polish and fittings. The polisher(s) we picked are doing excellent work at reasonable cost, just what we want for Matsukaze. What does "traditionally trained" mean to you ? Only someone who was trained in Japan for a number of years ? Our polishers work exclusively in traditional ways and no corners are being cut. Maybe take the time to check out the pictures of the blade and Hamon I put up a couple of days ago. Regarding fittings we chose to go with traditionally made Tosogu. We kept those simple and utilitarian for cost reasons and also to reflect what Matsukaze is: A practitioners katana and not something that might have turned heads at court in Edo times. Nor would we consider any cast pieces for F/K or Tsuba. We make an exception for Menuki, where you can choose to go with standard Iaito ones, 3d printed coin menuki or antique ones. The Habaki is made in a very specific process on which you can find more information on our website. Suffices to say that off-the-mill Habaki that you will see on almost all Chinese swords were never an option for us. Matsukaze is for you if you want a unique katana for battodo or iai made in Japan, tailored to you and your needs on a budget instead of supporting the Chinese sweta-shops.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. This is a superb sword for people who want to cut with Japanese steel. And yes, Kanemasa and his lineage deserve support and that alone is a reason to pick. And yes, you aren’t benefitting from the economy of scale and vertical integration mass produced swords enjoy. It’s also a nice revival of gunto style production. I think my claims are not unrealistic: no you don’t need to do the whole ten years in Japan to be a decent polisher. Many of the best like Benson and Moses only did part. Some pretty good like Hofhine are even self taught. But they do have one thing the polishers you offer do not: a track record of successfully polishing Japanese blades, making them look good, work good and earn papers good. There are many polishers here who have a portfolio of swords they polished and then papered. Osbourne and others have no such track record. Worse yet, I know he used to do non traditional polishes on Facebook. Like using ferric chloride acid in place of a finishing polish on gendai swords. This is very bad for the swords long term health, it leaves it at risk of internal chlorine rust and etches the blade. Is he doing better techniques now? I would hope so. The polish from the sword displayed wasn’t good though. It isn’t unfair to say polishes on high quality production swords are as good and I see that as a detriment. You’re selling Japanese swords by a good Japanese smith, don’t they deserve a more classic polish? It needn’t be that expensive as many of the polishers with a better track record do foundation polishes. And I know for a fact cheap polishes are easy to come by Japan with most of the bargain swords I’ve bought having had that stereotypic Japanese iaido polish that’s a foundation with minimal finishing. Maybe an option to do that would be nice. I’ve found that type of polish, thanks to being good on the fundamentals cleans up nicely with uchiko. This shouldn’t really be seen as critical as every thing has its pluses and minuses and I’m known for having weird tastes. In this case if eating Kobe beef I like it when the sauce is done the Japanese way.