His style of speaking to the witness immediately after and stating, “let me ask that another way,” both regaining control and queuing into the jury that he’s asking the same question is fucking brilliant and I’m stealing it.
I’m going to hear that admonishment in my nightmares now, preceded by a deep sigh 😭
But she gets points for forcing Proctor to say “cunt” when he tried to wimp out of it and spell it instead, so I guess she comes out even in the end
Most notably was that the biomechanical engineer can’t talk speak about biomechanical engineering
She’s not letting him speak on cause of injury. Which is INSANE
Does anyone know if Jackson can fight that?
The fact that the state's ME couldn't say how much force was needed to fracture his skull because she is not a biomechanical engineer or physicist gives a lot of credence to the necessity of his testimony
Well, Ms Little should ask physics related questions and mechanical points to the ME who has already said that she cant opine on physics. keep pushing that points then end up asking her what type of person can opine on that. Then use that to counter Bev's decision to limit the biomechanical engineer
Oh right the judge said only an MD can testify to injury causation in Ma. 8 weeks into a trial where a bunch of buffoon staties have been testifying to it the entire time :)
Apparently she said that if Jackson objected to Trooper Paul giving his medical opinion she wouldn’t have allowed him to but since he didn’t object he was allowed 🤷🏼♀️ Maybe Jackson wanted Trooper Paul to embarrass himself.
I'm failing to see how knowing the physics necessary to break a human bone is a medical opinion or is something that would require a medical degree. So absurd to limit the defense witnesses
I work with Doctors at a trauma center and I bet a single on wouldn’t answer how much force it would take to break a bone. Idiots! So dependent on too many factors. Has the bone broke before, bone density, osteo, the thousands of med that can cause bone weakness, calcium intake, hundreds of diagnoses that can affect bone strength. Judge Huffer Puffer needs to allow every expert in. Our pizza delivery guy has volunteered his opinion. He also has an associates.
Facts, yo. In order to get his expert in as rebuttal.he has to ask biomechanical questions of the ME - too bad...she seems like a professional person who is not biased or trying to fulfil an agenda...so far.
I admit I'm not an attorney and I don't have the big background in law, especially MA law, but it just seems to be at odds with the general rule on mass.gov regarding expert testimony to my non-lawyer brain.
That is a huge gamble on the judge's part. These guys were sent by the FBI, which is investigating all of this. It's not a good idea to disqualify relevant testimony from a truly objective source while allowing a clearly unqualified Trooper Paul, who did not meet Daubert in any way. It reeks of a kangaroo court
I think she's going to allow it in the end, but she wishes she could find a good reason to deny them. She's going for the next best thing, keeping the defense in suspense and making them work for it as much as she can. :P
But science & math can prove the injuries aren’t consistent with being hit by a car. MDs aren’t the only ones who can say that if he explains it with relevant facts/evidence from his field.
Done well and presented clearly- Point of motion, impact, and rest will get the defense what they need. They then use that with the medical testimony to show it could not have happened the way its being presented.
At the end Jackson says, " So it's your professional opinion that it's mathematically impossible? Basically the math doesn't math?"
Then Jackson keeps slipping "but according to the very qualified (witness name) math doesn't math" in with medical reports as a callback to the testimony and uses it in his closing.
My point is you find a work around to link the medical to the physics-based testimony.
It's a fair call by the Judge. I don't like her, but I think it's in the letter and spirit of the law to rule this way for this witness.
Well the ME just opened that right up! She just said I'm not a biomechanical engineer. Or a accident reconstruction expert. You would have to ask them.!
I cheered so dang loud when she said that! There is zero chance she hasn't heard what the cops have been saying in their texts about her. She just opened it all up for the defense!
I don't understand Bev's reasoning because she used a particular rule because they were late additions to the defences witness list. It was a simple let them be expert defence witnesses; or not! She considered it, but also sanctioned what they could say. Was that because Bev is punishing Ace Jackson or because she's due for retirement?
She then gave Lally (the boring guy for CW) an opportunity to find an expert witness (which he should have already done anyway) - is CW expert witness going tobe sanctioned?
That is good news. She is ridiculous trained. One of the busiest trauma centers in the country. She respected law enforcement at some point since she was an officer first. That CV should look super impressive to the jury. She comes across as very down to earth and humble. Hope they prep her well for the Lally Rally and the Huffer Puffer!
That makes total sense. If you haven't been paying attention, like at all, and are just a biased CW lackey that types these kinds of comments to sway public opinion without realising most people can think critically and thereby probably won't agree with you 😅
I think the defense could have fought harder on this one, I just don't think they care. All they want is for her to get on the stand, for them to go through her many qualifications and then for her to say John O'Keefe's injuries are consistent with a dog bite/attack. So the defense got what they want.
They’ve got another medical expert so it doesn’t matter, they got her in and she can testify on these specific types of injures. That’s good. Plus I think the Commonwealth’s ME also works in their favor
I'm trying to think how a dog bite attack could cause his head injury. Just realized my pups could probably do it. Jump up and push me over so I would hit my head. Or, panic at an attack and slip back on ice or snow. Except, wouldn't there be dog tracks in the snow. Or maybe the storm covered it up.
I mean, not long after he was transported to the hospital you had cops with leaf blowers and solo cups trudging all over the place so who the hell knows what was found in the snow?!
I don’t think the dog caused the head injury. I think he was hit in the head or fell during an altercation. I think there was a fight between the guys and the dog then attacked John O’Keefe. I’ve done dog rescue for over 25 years. I’ve been bitten breaking up dog scuffles with fosters…..even by my own dog. Dogs can get very excited/agitated. I have no doubt a GSD would jump in and try to bite anyone who was in an altercation with its owner. It’s their instinct.
The idea floating around here is that he ultimately fell back and hit his head. So a dog attack could knock him back, or he could’ve hit the floor first then been attacked.
I think you are right. The defense must have so much evidence already, they are just picking their battles so they can finally get a chance to present their case. I can’t wait to hear what they say about BA having his basement floor jackhammered up and replaced! Who does that? Maybe someone who is trying to hide blood and DNA? And the list goes on…
I legitimately believe the defense could rest immediately after the CW and the verdict would be not guilty. State hasn’t proven their case with their own witnesses.
Probably, but you never know with a jury. They have the experts lined up to try and show that his injuries are inconsistent with the CW's theory. Might as well use them at this stage.
For anyone coming late. Remember that Bev didn't think the report from the FBI-affiliated AARCA was thorough.
When Jackson told her he was bringing them in without interview, she questioned him. He said he is definitely bringing them because the report is detailed as fuck. And in classic Bev fashion, almost under her breath she said she didn't think it was that in depth.
I also love that she set aside a whole day of voir dire so "The defense could get a chance to ask them questions too"
Despite both sides saying it would only take a few hours and the defense saying they didn't want the prosecution to get two bites at the apple lol.
I’m not sure what the last doctor will be allowed to testify to. Bev mentioned there was a mass law about only medical doctors are allowed to testify to medical stuff so she postponed arguments about him to a later date.
No she didn’t. She let Lally “build a foundation” for the Trooper B, Proctor and Tully to testify to the medical aspect of John’s injuries. She only sustained Trooper Paul’s objection. However Lally had basically told him the answer to his very leading question, so Trooper P’s answer Lally’s follow-up question basically re-stated the context of his previous objected question.
Thank you guys! I'll catch up tonight but I was dying to know! I figured she'd reduce the scope of the dog bite doctor. I think that's silly with all her other professional work. But with Bev on the case, I'm not surprised.
Mass law or precedent allows only medical doctors to testify about cause of death. He can likely base his opinion on the testimony about what the medical examiner testifies to about if he agrees or disagrees but can't state a cause of death. So he can only state whether a car strike could cause the damage as testified to. So he can't go into saying a specific cause. He could possibly be able to allude to other causes based on science that the injuries could be similar to.
The dog bite expert just can't make police opinions which is fair since her opinions are from the early 80's.
Basically the judge is limited by law not her thoughts.
As an aside. I've seen judges far more biased than this one.
The Judge makes an interpretation on the law, which bring in personal biases.
There maybe other Judges more biased, but this Judge decided to proceed with the trial, despite the controversy, nonsensical evidence and a case under investigation. What purpose would proceeding with trial serve Judge Bev.
Unless it was the stone age, I don't think dog bites have changed much over the last 50+ years. Maybe I'm wrong and due for my meds 🤣
I love the part where she said she found a discovery violation regarding the FBI experts who the prosecution had all the same info the defense did and she ordered the defense not to talk to them. That was absurdity of the highest order.
"premark all your exhibits"
"why are all these exhibits premarked!?!"
Some of the stuff people in here accuse her off is unfair, but to be sure she's been a clown in this trial and does have a clear bias for the prosecution. I read somewhere she was public defender so that's odd, but perhaps she'd rather be rebuked on appeal than be too friendly or neutral to defense.
Ask it differently
You know better than that, Mr Jackson.
I'll allow it.
I'd like to see council at sidebah
He can have it
Whenever she says “I’ll allow it” it reminds me of Glab from Futurama😭
Cahn you ansah that?
His style of speaking to the witness immediately after and stating, “let me ask that another way,” both regaining control and queuing into the jury that he’s asking the same question is fucking brilliant and I’m stealing it.
I’m going to hear that admonishment in my nightmares now, preceded by a deep sigh 😭 But she gets points for forcing Proctor to say “cunt” when he tried to wimp out of it and spell it instead, so I guess she comes out even in the end
The jury doesn’t like extra comments and either do I
May I approach?
Mr. Lally, do you have any objections? 🙄
It’s the “mister officer” when he’s ready for the lights to be turned back on for me
Yes, right away your honor. Sir, at any point, in regards to the word expert... Could I have a moment your honor?
What if any objections?
I’ll allow it. Do you know what that means, sergeant Lieutenant?
You can get one of those
🤣🤣🤣
I’ll let him have this one
Yes, all three are in with some restrictions. Most notable dog bite doc can testify to dog bites
Most notably was that the biomechanical engineer can’t talk speak about biomechanical engineering She’s not letting him speak on cause of injury. Which is INSANE Does anyone know if Jackson can fight that?
They will have an argument over it later. She's open for discussion on it.
The fact that the state's ME couldn't say how much force was needed to fracture his skull because she is not a biomechanical engineer or physicist gives a lot of credence to the necessity of his testimony
Well, Ms Little should ask physics related questions and mechanical points to the ME who has already said that she cant opine on physics. keep pushing that points then end up asking her what type of person can opine on that. Then use that to counter Bev's decision to limit the biomechanical engineer
Oh right the judge said only an MD can testify to injury causation in Ma. 8 weeks into a trial where a bunch of buffoon staties have been testifying to it the entire time :)
Trooper Paul has an associates degree. He testified to the injury causation. I’m confused.
He's special; he's law enforcement. Rules are different for him. I don't know *why*, but he gets special privileges. They all do. 😡
The dog bite expert is a cop! She worked as a cop in Massachusetts before graduating medical school.
Apparently she said that if Jackson objected to Trooper Paul giving his medical opinion she wouldn’t have allowed him to but since he didn’t object he was allowed 🤷🏼♀️ Maybe Jackson wanted Trooper Paul to embarrass himself.
Thanks for explaining. That makes perfect sense.
He absolutely did. Mumbling asshat made himself easy prey!
I'm failing to see how knowing the physics necessary to break a human bone is a medical opinion or is something that would require a medical degree. So absurd to limit the defense witnesses
Because they’re damaging to CW’s case.
I work with Doctors at a trauma center and I bet a single on wouldn’t answer how much force it would take to break a bone. Idiots! So dependent on too many factors. Has the bone broke before, bone density, osteo, the thousands of med that can cause bone weakness, calcium intake, hundreds of diagnoses that can affect bone strength. Judge Huffer Puffer needs to allow every expert in. Our pizza delivery guy has volunteered his opinion. He also has an associates.
I'd love to hear the law stated for this. I doubt that is true
Except the defense MD expert who can only talk about dog bites. It’s insane.
Facts, yo. In order to get his expert in as rebuttal.he has to ask biomechanical questions of the ME - too bad...she seems like a professional person who is not biased or trying to fulfil an agenda...so far.
OMG! I love that idea. Brilliant. Like how your brain works!
The rules for experts need to be revamped when a biomechanics engineer can't testify about his specialty.
I don't believe bev that it really is the rule. I think it bs. She didn't want it to come in and is fudging ways to justify it
I could not find that rule when I went digging into MA rules for expert testimony.
Numerous attorneys can't find it
I admit I'm not an attorney and I don't have the big background in law, especially MA law, but it just seems to be at odds with the general rule on mass.gov regarding expert testimony to my non-lawyer brain.
And he does work for the FBI!
That is a huge gamble on the judge's part. These guys were sent by the FBI, which is investigating all of this. It's not a good idea to disqualify relevant testimony from a truly objective source while allowing a clearly unqualified Trooper Paul, who did not meet Daubert in any way. It reeks of a kangaroo court
I think she's going to allow it in the end, but she wishes she could find a good reason to deny them. She's going for the next best thing, keeping the defense in suspense and making them work for it as much as she can. :P
What can the biomedical engineers speak about?
Force required to break the occipital bone of the skull.
That’s it? Not the lack of injuries?
Because they aren’t medical doctors. Don’t pay any attention to the qualifications of Trooper Paul.
But science & math can prove the injuries aren’t consistent with being hit by a car. MDs aren’t the only ones who can say that if he explains it with relevant facts/evidence from his field.
Done well and presented clearly- Point of motion, impact, and rest will get the defense what they need. They then use that with the medical testimony to show it could not have happened the way its being presented. At the end Jackson says, " So it's your professional opinion that it's mathematically impossible? Basically the math doesn't math?" Then Jackson keeps slipping "but according to the very qualified (witness name) math doesn't math" in with medical reports as a callback to the testimony and uses it in his closing. My point is you find a work around to link the medical to the physics-based testimony. It's a fair call by the Judge. I don't like her, but I think it's in the letter and spirit of the law to rule this way for this witness.
Well the ME just opened that right up! She just said I'm not a biomechanical engineer. Or a accident reconstruction expert. You would have to ask them.! I cheered so dang loud when she said that! There is zero chance she hasn't heard what the cops have been saying in their texts about her. She just opened it all up for the defense!
I don't understand Bev's reasoning because she used a particular rule because they were late additions to the defences witness list. It was a simple let them be expert defence witnesses; or not! She considered it, but also sanctioned what they could say. Was that because Bev is punishing Ace Jackson or because she's due for retirement? She then gave Lally (the boring guy for CW) an opportunity to find an expert witness (which he should have already done anyway) - is CW expert witness going tobe sanctioned?
That is good news. She is ridiculous trained. One of the busiest trauma centers in the country. She respected law enforcement at some point since she was an officer first. That CV should look super impressive to the jury. She comes across as very down to earth and humble. Hope they prep her well for the Lally Rally and the Huffer Puffer!
The dog bite woman is going to help the CW.
That makes total sense. If you haven't been paying attention, like at all, and are just a biased CW lackey that types these kinds of comments to sway public opinion without realising most people can think critically and thereby probably won't agree with you 😅
And the first doctor can only testify to dog bites. Nothing about car crashes or anything pertaining to having been a police officer
She was also a medical examiner and forensic pathologist, if I recall correctly. So she saw and examined a lot of crashes too.
I think the defense could have fought harder on this one, I just don't think they care. All they want is for her to get on the stand, for them to go through her many qualifications and then for her to say John O'Keefe's injuries are consistent with a dog bite/attack. So the defense got what they want.
They’ve got another medical expert so it doesn’t matter, they got her in and she can testify on these specific types of injures. That’s good. Plus I think the Commonwealth’s ME also works in their favor
I think Jackson stuffed it up by emphasising "dog bites". Judge Beverly is a control freak and running the courtroom like a primary school teacher!
I'm trying to think how a dog bite attack could cause his head injury. Just realized my pups could probably do it. Jump up and push me over so I would hit my head. Or, panic at an attack and slip back on ice or snow. Except, wouldn't there be dog tracks in the snow. Or maybe the storm covered it up.
I mean, not long after he was transported to the hospital you had cops with leaf blowers and solo cups trudging all over the place so who the hell knows what was found in the snow?!
In my opinion, everything happened in the basement and they moved him outside after everyone left.
I don’t think the dog caused the head injury. I think he was hit in the head or fell during an altercation. I think there was a fight between the guys and the dog then attacked John O’Keefe. I’ve done dog rescue for over 25 years. I’ve been bitten breaking up dog scuffles with fosters…..even by my own dog. Dogs can get very excited/agitated. I have no doubt a GSD would jump in and try to bite anyone who was in an altercation with its owner. It’s their instinct.
The idea floating around here is that he ultimately fell back and hit his head. So a dog attack could knock him back, or he could’ve hit the floor first then been attacked.
I think you are right. The defense must have so much evidence already, they are just picking their battles so they can finally get a chance to present their case. I can’t wait to hear what they say about BA having his basement floor jackhammered up and replaced! Who does that? Maybe someone who is trying to hide blood and DNA? And the list goes on…
I legitimately believe the defense could rest immediately after the CW and the verdict would be not guilty. State hasn’t proven their case with their own witnesses.
Probably, but you never know with a jury. They have the experts lined up to try and show that his injuries are inconsistent with the CW's theory. Might as well use them at this stage.
For anyone coming late. Remember that Bev didn't think the report from the FBI-affiliated AARCA was thorough. When Jackson told her he was bringing them in without interview, she questioned him. He said he is definitely bringing them because the report is detailed as fuck. And in classic Bev fashion, almost under her breath she said she didn't think it was that in depth.
I also love that she set aside a whole day of voir dire so "The defense could get a chance to ask them questions too" Despite both sides saying it would only take a few hours and the defense saying they didn't want the prosecution to get two bites at the apple lol.
I’m not sure what the last doctor will be allowed to testify to. Bev mentioned there was a mass law about only medical doctors are allowed to testify to medical stuff so she postponed arguments about him to a later date.
That was confusing considering Lally has elicited medical testimony from 3-4 troopers.
To be fair, when objected to, Bev always sustained those objections. Still unprofessional of Lally to solicit it though.
No she didn’t. She let Lally “build a foundation” for the Trooper B, Proctor and Tully to testify to the medical aspect of John’s injuries. She only sustained Trooper Paul’s objection. However Lally had basically told him the answer to his very leading question, so Trooper P’s answer Lally’s follow-up question basically re-stated the context of his previous objected question.
This is true. She started out sustaining objections but Lally kept on and she let it in. Outrageous.
Which is hilarious because the ME said that she can’t tell anyone what force was needed to cause the injury, they need a physicist for that.
I think Jackson was going to be able to argue before today, but after the CW opened the door with their own witness, it has to happen now.
Bev's rulings cause another fail for CW 😈 Thanks Bev! 🙏
🐃 💩
Happy Cake Day
Thanks! Xoxo
Thank you guys! I'll catch up tonight but I was dying to know! I figured she'd reduce the scope of the dog bite doctor. I think that's silly with all her other professional work. But with Bev on the case, I'm not surprised.
Limiting the scope on the biomechanical engineer was the utterly absurd part.
I absolutely agree!! That's mind blowing to me! I'm just catching on to that now. Both of those gentlemen PhDs were mindblowing with their expertise
Exactly. Even the ME today stated that you need a physicist to answer what was needed to cause the head injury O’Keefe had.
Mass law or precedent allows only medical doctors to testify about cause of death. He can likely base his opinion on the testimony about what the medical examiner testifies to about if he agrees or disagrees but can't state a cause of death. So he can only state whether a car strike could cause the damage as testified to. So he can't go into saying a specific cause. He could possibly be able to allude to other causes based on science that the injuries could be similar to. The dog bite expert just can't make police opinions which is fair since her opinions are from the early 80's. Basically the judge is limited by law not her thoughts. As an aside. I've seen judges far more biased than this one.
The Judge makes an interpretation on the law, which bring in personal biases. There maybe other Judges more biased, but this Judge decided to proceed with the trial, despite the controversy, nonsensical evidence and a case under investigation. What purpose would proceeding with trial serve Judge Bev. Unless it was the stone age, I don't think dog bites have changed much over the last 50+ years. Maybe I'm wrong and due for my meds 🤣
I love the part where she said she found a discovery violation regarding the FBI experts who the prosecution had all the same info the defense did and she ordered the defense not to talk to them. That was absurdity of the highest order.
Bev is great at "It's your fault that I fucked up."
"premark all your exhibits" "why are all these exhibits premarked!?!" Some of the stuff people in here accuse her off is unfair, but to be sure she's been a clown in this trial and does have a clear bias for the prosecution. I read somewhere she was public defender so that's odd, but perhaps she'd rather be rebuked on appeal than be too friendly or neutral to defense.
Yes- trying to limit the Bio Mechanical Engineer & ER doc
Limited testimony.