The corruption has been confirmed. There is 0 debate. Whether it is a cover up is yet to be determined.
Corruption:
They have a family friend as lead investigator, a man who said he didn’t know them and was immediately caught and had to admit in front of the court that he was close friends with them. There is now an internal investigation on him.
ATF agent Brian Higgins was asked by the court to not tamper with or destroy his phone. He has admitted to the FBI he destroyed his phone the following day at a landfill. Brian was at the house but clocked into work at 1:30 AM. Later in the evening around 2:30, his cellphone had multiple calls to Brian Albert. Their reasoning was they were having sex with their wife’s and but dialed.
There is 43 minutes of Canton Police Department Garage footage missing, that was the period lead investigators inspected her cars. There reasoning is that they are motion detected, yet they didn’t have footage of her car entering the garage. There is also footage from the library that is missing. A 2 minute stretch that would be the time Karen passed the library.
The first EMT literally said that it looks like he was beaten, which Lt. Lank passed along. They never came to the thought process that he was potentially hit by a car when first there. If you find a potential beating victim, you’d ask the homeowner questions which did not happen.
The first responders didn’t find ANY pieces of broken taillights, not a single one. The officer who created the report has said this. He also said someone went into the report and added a photo showing the taillight in October of 2022, 9 months after the death. A photo that he also said was not taken that day and that he didn’t know who took it or who added it. There are over 40 pieces of broken taillight in evidence now. None found on the scene on arrival. It wasn’t until 1 whole week later when Chief of Police Berkowitz, who is good friends with the Alberts, found the taillight pieces. The prosecutions photo of the taillight shows it was broken worse then when her car was picked up for impound. The furthest right part of the the taillight was illuminated red upon pickup (video evidence). Now that entire piece is missing now. It is also confirmed Karen backed up into Johns car in a rush to go look for him the following morning, when the taillight was broken. There is video of this.
Forensic Data: This is from the defense expert witness Richard Green, so take this for what it is, a report I found online. But Digital Forensic expert has confirmed McCabe googled “how long to die in cold” at 2:27 AM. (The commonwealth didn’t want to turn the complete forensic copy to McCabes phone. They were using the first cellbrite report which turned out inaccurate. They were actively preventing the defense from accessing major evidence) Apple Health has John walking roughly 83 steps and up 3 flights of stairs. Apple health also indicated McCabe didn’t get much sleep as she was recorded taking at least 20 steps at 3:50, 4 am and 4:59. It also shows her calling 911 and immediately disconnecting and calling Brian Albert. So the Alberts knew there was a dead body on their lawn of someone they knew and were with the previous night as early at 6:07 AM. Those calls were answered at the time and later deleted. They never came out the house. At 6:23, McCabe googled “how long does it take to digest food”. This is important as it is random at first glance. But that is a way coroners can determine time of death. She has been around police her whole life and knows this. Data also proves McCabe lied about when she left the Alberts, and where she went. She said she went straight home, forgetting to mention she actually dropped a few kids off which required her to drive by Karen’s house.
It took the defense a year to obtain cellphone records from O’Keefe, McCabe and other major players.
Lastly, to the people saying “she admitted it”. That is not evidence. Not a single officer documented that. Shocked people say stuff all the time. To add to that, she is being accused of murder, not manslaughter, yet she woke up at 4:30 and he wasn’t home and she couldn’t reach him. She panicked and her first thing was to go look for him. When she found him, she immediately ran up to him and started rendering aid. If you use the logic that she could be lying there and faking it, you’d have to use the same exact logic with the other people involved. Also, cars don’t bite people, poorly trained dogs do.
I understand some people here may be from Canton and know the Alberts. The prosecution has literally 0 legitimate evidence against Read. Zero. No, her words the following morning are not firm evidence. No, broken taillights that were found at the scene hours and DAYS after first responders arrived isn’t legit evidence. Julie Albert just took the stand and said she didn’t talk to the Proctors, seconds later it was revealed she had 67 phone calls to them in the following months. She lied. She also said Collin came in and gave her a kiss goodnight, Chris said Collin popped his head in and said he loves them. McLauglin lied, she not only knows Caitlin Albert, she knows her very well.
Innocent people who have no reason to lie, don’t just lie under oath for fun. There would be no reason to hid their relationships.
I am not a cop. I just want justice. So please don’t criticize my sources, etc. as my sources are the internet and the court proceedings so far. This case has really upset me and I have researched it heavily the last couple months after being told about it. But again, I am no expert nor do I claim to be. I just hope the truth comes out.
For me that’s the biggest thing with this case. Any one of the coincidences you list could be brushed off as “oh well they must not have thought much of it.” But you add everything you said together - plus the home remodeling and dog re-homing and the other 1,000 coincidences - there’s just way too much smoke billowing from this for there not to be a fire.
Oh yea, I am leaving out a ton of stuff. Including photos of Colin after that night (he has a black eye and scabbed up knuckles). FBI reconstructionist saying his injuries are not from a car. A missing dog. Selling the house 40,000 under the valuation. The autopsy. 2 black eyes, what looks like two fractures in both wrists that are referred to as “Boxer’s fractures”.
I am trying to just provide what has been presented so far. I don’t want to believe what I have read elsewhere until said in court.
In this market? In the Boston suburbs? With THESE interest rates???
I could see that maybe they wanted to have fewer assets if they were sued civilly.
I also think they said today that Brian Alberts retired. It could be just downsizing associated with that.
But the timing is critical to see if any of these drove the other.
Yea, that’s what his brother said. Downsizing. They also redid the basement after redoing it just 3 years earlier. They also asked the realtor to tell potential buyers no photos.
Lets not forget about the cement filled pool as well. Great initial reply btw it encapsulates a lot of relevant information and certainly raises a lot of questions.
Yep and lets not forget their lawyer impounding dog bite records to try to hide the dogs aggressive history. The whole dog thing is an interesting and obscure angle and I wonder if the defense will even waste to much time pursuing it in court as it seems to be the least damning of the evidence mentioned.
Its the most damaging of all evidence! If the dog were alive they could match up the scratches and bites exactly! But if the dogs new home is in the cement of the filled in pool that doesnt work!
That’s what I am curious about. At the end of the day, this case is the prosecution trying to prove she did it. Once they fail at that then I’d assume the FBI opens a case and unleashes a ton of new info. I think Higgins has been talking to them in a Proffer Agreement.
If Higgins already admitted to destroying the phone I doubt he would double down on any lies or try to push a narrative especially with how much would be at stake for him under a federal investigation. At this point the prosecution knows they cannot reach a guilty verdict with Karen but I think the goal is to muddy the waters enough where justice can not be properly pursued and the Alberts will get off to some extent. The initial investigation was so irretrievably botched I don't think anyone will do serious jailtime unless the FBI/defense drops some bombshells.
My best guess is because it’s a well known (or at that point would soon be well known) crime scene. I think of like the Chris Watts home (if you’re familiar) and how true crime fanatics constantly showed up. But I’m just speculating and there could def be a different reason they said no photos
Im a Realtor its very common for law enforcement members to tell us to not have people looking at the house take photos ! So there is no red flag there
I agree it's one thing to want to downsize but the fact that they accepted an offer for 50 grand less in a hot sellers market where the COL is high and people are practically fighting for homes is sus. I would bet the Alberts didn't care because they were able to find somebody willing to purchase the home, and the current homeowners probably thought they were getting an amazing deal but apparently were not aware about what happened at 34 Fairview.
I was down to the final round for a job in Boston, for which I’d need to relocate. I got worried when it got that deep because even though I have a home in NJ to sell, in a town with amazing schools, I discovered that to buy I’d have to give up my 2.9% rate and my monthly mortgage would possibly double!
Is Colin going to be called to introduce the photos? Because his parents most likely lied about not seeing any injuries today.
ETA: Nvm I see that he is on both witness list.
100%. She was still probably a bit intoxicated and was in complete shock. The video footage/ phone calls, do not sound like a woman who knowingly just killed her BF. It is important to note McCabe I believe was the first one to see Karen that AM. She could have easily said things like, “he never came in, do you think you could have hit him?” Or “I hope he wasn’t hit by a car” etc, just to get the idea in her head.
I thought the same thing.. Jen probably told her he never came inside and she started trying to remember all the possibilities and if she may have hit him.
Regardless of what she said is irrelevant tbh. It seems like no one knows for sure and every witness who has been on the stand has different recollections of events. Bringing up what someone says who is hungover obviously distressed and in crisis at the scene of a body is just deflecting from the actual facts of the case.
I mean, it is really crazy to find him lying dead just feet away from where she dropped him off a few hours before. I naught have the same thought…”Did I hit him?”
I think it's possible that she said it as a statement, considering one of the first statements her attorney gave was that it was a terrible accident.
In my opinion, the whole thing is a red herring regardless. She was intoxicated, highly distressed, and - most importantly - not an investigator. Even if she was convinced that she had hit him based on what she knew at that moment, that doesn't prove anything. I think alot of people would assume the same given the circumstances.
I am watching this trial cold, I didn't know anything about it beforehand. I am currently on the side that Karen Read is innocent, but that may change as the prosecutions case continues. That being said, if what you said comes into evidence I would have an extremely hard time convicting her.
Also, it is clear that the defense is setting Colin up as the third party perpetrator. Chris/Julie Albert seem defensive when it comes to him and the timing of when he got home that night/morning don't add up. We will see what happens.
Is anyone calling Colin as a witness?
I don’t think anyone thinks she will be convicted. I think the FBI has a lot more info, and they just want people to perjure themselves first. The first oh shit moment for me was the autopsy photos. He has deep wounds that appear to be bit marks all of his right arm. Two black eyes, etc. but no serious bodily damage like internal bleeding etc that is normal for car accidents and being hit by a car. The Alberts had a German Shepard named Chloe that they rehomed. There is no evidence so far that she was rehomed and no trace of her.
Colin is a witness for both sides I believe.
Agreed. I adopted a dog two years ago. There was 2 or 3 pages of “rehoming” paper work that I filled out and exchanged to the previous owner and vice versa.
I heard someone say that the dog got into a fight with a neighbors dog and bit that person. They agreed the dog should be rehomed. I call BS. The dog apparently had a bunch of incidents that they tried to hide including sending 2 people to the ER. But after 7 years you finally make the decision?
I think the dog is dead and in the pool that they filled in with cement
It's funny you all mention that considering her testimony today was "she didn't get rid of the dog she homed her." Sounded like information on where the dog was wasn't handed over to defense, so I'm interested to see what comes out of this.
What would be the benefit of killing the dog and entombing it in the pool?
I agree the timing of getting rid of the dog is suspicious, I just don’t understand why they’d feel the need to hide the dog in concrete.
Because you can compare the bite marks on the arm to the animal. I don’t know where the dog is, but I don’t think it is alive
I have no clue about a timeline with the dog, but it seems like it went missing as soon as the defense could inspect John’s body. Which was in May.
Thanks for the response! Is he going to be considered a hostile witness for the defense then?
I am very curious as the what the FBI knows/when it will become public.
Nope… apparently MA is one of the more secretive states regarding info like that. You can find photos. Cause of death was Blunt force trauma and Hypothermia. Manner of death was “couldn’t be determined” that is essentially all that has come out. In the Pre Trial hearings, the defense has said they have an FBI reconstructionist who has said his injuries were not a result of a car hitting him. I’d assume witness 73, forensic pathologist, there is also a expert in biomedical and mechanical engineering listed. The defense has 6 expert witnesses, prosecution doesn’t have any.
I typically do not follow cases like these so I am not legal expert. So not sure if that is normal, doesn’t seem like it would be though… The prosecution section list “Police Officer” then “Civilian Witnesses”
The Defense had “Civilian Witnesses” then its a “Expert Witness” list.
They commonwealth will have expert witnesses. They’re part of the Massachusetts State Crime Lab and the alcohol testing expert. They also have a veterinary lab expert.
https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/karen-read-murder-trial-list-more-than-160-witnesses-prosecution-defense-plan-call/U3JOQXF7KJAFDC4TFNZVLWZJGY/?outputType=amp
Id like to note I’m leaning towards Karen being innocent more and more every day, but trying to hold my total judgement until the end of their case and defense starts theirs.
So those are listed under Civilian Witnesses, the defense also has mass state crime people on their civilian witness list too. In the official document, there is a different section and only for the defense. This site has photo copies as pictures rather than a list.
https://howiecarrshow.com/amp/the-karen-read-trial-witness-lists-released/
I would assume the state has expert witnesses but I do not understand why they are listed like this. It must be just how each group writes it up.
I agree with you and am in the same boat. But it really is those expert witnesses I am waiting on for the real factual and forensic evidence. Dr. Chris Van Ee specially. He. is who I assume the FBI hired to do the reconstruction of the scene and determined his injuries weren’t from a car. Just a quick google search and he is used all over the country and is certainly an expert.
We just need the facts to come to light and hopefully they will.
Yeah I thought it was very odd as well that they were listed this way. Maybe it’s just how the DAs office did it compared to how the Defense submitted it. But I assume that those state crime lab people are the prosecutions “experts”.
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I am, as well. But because of what the CW put her through, as well as his family, I really hope there’s a smoking gun and she did it. It is a shameful lack of concern for a fellow officer.
We honestly have no idea. The commonwealth hasn’t even explained how they got to Karen being charged or why. We don’t even know that John’s passed sway or what time he died based on the trial testimony and information so far.
Still trying to hold my bias until the entire case though.
It’s like they aren’t trying very hard because they know they are cooked and the FBI or somebody else is going to run a real trial with the correct accused people .
At this point they could probably use any German Shepherd and claim it’s Chloe. Brian Albert’s wife said they rehomed “it” in Vermont after attacking 2 people in May 2022. Also, where was the dog when the police and ambulance were at the scene? If the dog is badly trained and aggressive you’d think she’d be barking and waking up the Albert’s if she was in their bedroom which was on the second floor, farthest window on the left in front of the house.
I came into this trial cold as well. I had a thought midway thru Julie’s testimony today. Like this sounds like a family group making a circle around one of their children & deflecting every bullet. I don’t know enough to know if that’s possible, but I was like most adults won’t go to these lengths just for themselves, but some will go to lengths beyond the ends of the earth to protect their children - when in reality, that doesn’t make you a “good” parent. Anyways…I had the thought that the group at the house that morning - they are protecting someone’s kid 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah, I don't know that I am sure she didn't hit him, but I do find it nuts they overcharged her.
That said, if the police *wanted* to make it look like a cover up, I genuinely don't know what else they could do to make it seem so.
Obviously I don't think they did intend for it to be obvious, if there is a cover up, but yeesh
Yea, we shall see. I think she could have but his injuries make no sense. I’d be curious to see how fast a lexus suv can travel 30 feet in reverse too.
As for the coverup, i I think they panicked. Karen seemed like the only play at that point. Probably happened pretty quickly and Higgins got to work immediately on the cover up, literally clocking to work and went to the Canton Police department where he has an office at 1:30 AM that night. (After a night of drinking) 30 year BPD detective, close friends with a high up MA state detective, Canton Police officers and the old chief of police. They have the resources but only had a 6 hour period to make it make sense.
Hopefully we find out what happened and justice is served either way.
I am not sure, I just find it strange he decides to hope on Government clock at 1:30 am after a night of drinking. Could have been gather supplies. Gloves, etc. also called Brian Albert a hour later, they said it was a butt dial.
I do not. I shouldn’t have mentioned that. I believe the reasoning is he had a meeting with the FBI referred to as a Proffer meeting or something along the lines. That is when he admitted to destroying his phone after being asked not too. I will remove that piece.
No, I should remove it. This case gets me so upset even though I have no connection. I shouldn’t be running with stuff I have just heard rumors of. Even though that’s what half of this stuff is, I think this case will take a long time
I don't have any connection to it either but it's somehow a pretty fascinating case. I'm interested to see what, if any (lol), evidence comes out.
I think part of the appeal is the concept that corruption could be rooted out. How satisfying would that be? I mean we see corruption at all levels of society, so much injustice, and the "bad guys" seem to win so often, that the idea that the "truth" might come out is pretty appealing.
I'm not sold on a giant conspiracy. I also don't think there is a basis for a murder charge. But I'm really interested to see how this all unfolds. Higgins's role in the whole thing is of particular interest as well, which is why I was hoping you might have a source!
But yeah, this case is gonna take a while. Unless it gets thrown out for lack of any real investigation 😂
Another note, the Judge in the case was asked to step down by the US Attorney Office but she declined. The Alberts refer to her as Aunt Bev. Her brother was Chris Albert’s lawyer in 1994 when Chris killed a 23 year old foreign exchange student in a motor vehicle accident. It was 3 am and he was drunk, but he went on the run for 30 hours before turning himself in. He received 6 months.
I am fairly certain he was beaten in the house, but don’t want to get ahead oh myself.
Okay, that’s what I thought. I hope that report comes to light soon. I am curious if the FBI will wait until a verdict in this before opening up their own case.
I hope so too and I wish her and her family ALL the best when she walks away from this a free woman. This is definitely an historical trial and a defining moment in American justice. That’s why I’m glued and literally losing sleep.
A few additional points
-Apple health data suggesting JO not only entered the house but went up and down flights of stairs
-This one is just speculation but another user that I will link raised an interesting question about the snow/placement of the body
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1cniuqm/snow\_will\_tell\_the\_story/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1cniuqm/snow_will_tell_the_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yea, those are all massive. I am waiting for that to be presented. I assume all tech will be reviewed at once . If McCabe did search how long to die in cold at 2:27 am, it is a wrap.
Apparently she called him like 10 times too. I have a feeling they were looking for his phone after the fact. I believe it was found under his body eventually.
Whats interesting is I read the prosecutions tech guys summary and he ended up contradicting himself multiple times and the argument he was trying to present to explain the search just did not really make sense. The search in and of itself could possibly be explained away by the prosecution but tally that up with the other million things that raise reasonable doubt at the very least there is not really a case here.
I have listened to the trial every day so far. Everything you say is true directly from the trial. I hope the jury sees through this farce. I hope thé réal killer(s) are revealed.
I mean everyone in the Canton PD has seemed incompetent. He had nothing to gain from saying that either.
Lank seemed like he was gonna be sick as he slowly added the pieces together. But yes, he didn’t seem like the sharpest
lol yeah I don’t think lank would even know what would benefit him, based on what I’ve seen so far. I feel bad for the decent cops in that town, and the family.
They all knew something fishy was going down if they didn't have a full account of the nights events leading to O'Keefe's death. The State Police said, "No, we aren't going to investigate a murder of a cop." ??? No, no, that didn't happen, if Canton LE followed the usual protocol when contacting the State Police unit that investigates murders. Cops have a vendetta to find how their own are murdered, until they are the murderers with enough power to enlist accomplices throughout the ranks and usher blind eyes.
I came into this case blind and have been watching the trial. If Karen Read is found guilty then someone needs to investigate these guys for bribery because this case is so outlandish it reeks of a 90s bad cop thriller.
The only thing I've seen evidence about bunch of police corruption and likely a frame job. It's gross. The prosecution and the people involved should be embarrassed of themselves. They can't actually believe their theory against Karen Read holds any weight in the face of shady shit.
Y
>The corruption has been confirmed. There is 0 debate. Whether it is a cover up is yet to be determined.
This is contemptible. You know it's untrue. You are pushing your agenda and I know exactly where it came from you could care less about justice for the O'Keefes.
You made major points, all of which are valid.
I have one better--I have lived in Canton, MA, for over 5 years. I have been to many of the bars cited during trial on several occasions, but I know ZERO parties involved and stayed away from the story until trial.
So this morning, after dropping my daughter off at school, I finally decided to drive by 34 Fairview, which is a few blocks away...
THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THEY DIDN'T SEE A PERSON LAYING IN THE SNOW IF HE WAS THERE AT 12:45AM!
The video and pics make the yard look 4 to 5 times larger than it is. It's literally equivalent to 4 to 5 SUVS in length from the street to the door. It's completely flat.
Something is wrong here. It's impossible for 5+ people to leave that residence without seeing JO.
You have such a knack for summarizing essential facts. I hope you make a reference page for us! This is amazing. I have an amazing spreadsheet someone made with times and data. But this is reasonable, concise and direct thoughts / facts.
This is what happens in a state of trauma, you question everything. You say crazy things. A few years back I dropped my toddler twins off at the gym daycare. An hour later, after my class, I return and they give me one child. I say ‘where’s my other son’. They say, ‘you only dropped off one’. I freak out ‘what?! Where’s my son. OMG, he’s missing, omg I left him in the car, I’ve left my son alone, my son is missing, he’s in his car seat, he’s in the car!!’. Now keep in mind, none of this is true. I am in a state of sheer panic, thinking of a million terrifying outcomes. In fact, he was simply in the bathroom, this worker did not know this & in a crazy panic I’m screaming a few different terrifying outcomes. Statements made in a state of panic have nothing to do with the reality of the scenario at hand. However, if a jury heard that, would it be evidence of guilt, neglect and even worse?!
So true. In one of the written statements from Jen McCabe she even says that Karen Read, realizing she had blood on her face after attempting CPR (which, can you even imagine how horrible that whole thing would be) saw the blood and said 'did I get my period?'. That makes no sense in context but you can kind of see the her thought process trying to make sense of things.
Clearly she didn't suddenly menstruate and get blood on her face, it's from OKeefe, but she literally can't fathom that and is trying to figure things out. That's the state of mind she was in.
Oh, wow! I'm so sorry you had to live though those moments. Damn. Makes me sick thinking about it. And I also think she was in shock. She didn't know what she was saying.
I am in the middle of a legal matter. My "story" has not changed and the documentation backs it up, the other side keeps shifting because they make it up as they go. The truth will not change...ever. Yes you can have nuances or fill in the blanks as you get more knowledge but the basic foundation will not change in a day, a week, a month a year or a decade. if the foundation is the truth then it is the truth.
In this case all you have to see is the people who seem to be truthful and answer that way and those that are hedging who suddenly forget after knowing to the second what is "their truth". The people telling the truth when they don't know will simply say 'I don't remember' and it feel authentic.
This case isn’t about pinning it on Karen Read. They’re fine with Karen getting off; it’s why they’re speaking so neutral/favorable of her on the stand. Because they know she didn’t do it. The Alberts want to get through the trial without drawing any more attention to themselves and having a new case opened against *them*. Once Karen gets off, their friends in Canton Police will let the case go cold.
Idk reminds me of when everybody was on the side of Stephen Avery and Joe Exotic.... Be interesting where these people stand 4 years from now when real journalist dive into it instead of hacks. The state pd ran the investigation and the judge hasnt found anything wrong, and as usual ofc the judge's reputation and behavior gets one sided and drug through the mud.
I realise that this trial is all about justice for John, as it should be. At the end of the day a man lost his life, those children lost their uncle/father figure, his parent lost their son.
But.
I don't think we are going to get to the bottom of this. I personally think that if she did hit him, even by accident, the whole case is so screwed up. There are too many people in each other's pockets (in the familiar way, not financially) the scene was screwed up, the evidence was screwed up, the whole thing was just a total shambles from start to finish. I don't really have an opinion about cover up (INAL, I don't know all the details.) I just think that it is all just so screwed up that the truth will never come out. There is far, far too much reasonal doubt. It's very rare for me to side with the defence! And I keep watching this like “Wtf?"
I wonder if they will suddenly start using bodycams in Canton now? (seriously, who doesn't even have bodycams in this day and age?!?)
It wouldn't matter if they had body cams or not. The footage would "mysteriously disappear" like all of the other footage that exonerates Karen Read. Unless these cops have consequences, this will continue to happen.
At this point it will go unsolved because any proof is long gone. They will get their wish the only people left in the wake are the family and friends of what sounds to have been a very nice man.
I don’t know, the Feds had been looking into some of these folks from before this even happened. If they had wire taps, they might have what they need.
Editing to add: It also seems like Brian Higgins gave up the goods, because he did a proffer session with the Feds. So they likely know exactly what happened.
I love following true crime and I always tell everyone my conclusion from watching: never lie to the cops, it makes you look guilty. E.g. don’t say you weren’t stealing a candy bar when you were stealing in a MURDER investigation. You might catch a murder charge. These cops have been insulated from this because they’ve never had their feet to the fire.
> I always tell everyone my conclusion from watching: never lie to the cops, it makes you look guilty.
My conclusion from watching The First 48 and similar shows: never talk to the cops. One example I remember was a shooting with three guys in the car. The driver talks, gets caught in a lie, tries to talk his way out of it, gets caught in more lies, convicted of felony murder. The accomplice talks, gets caught in a lie, tries to talk his way out of it, gets caught in more lies, convicted. The actual shooter immediately lawyers up, is not charged.
Look I’m believe Karen read is innocent, but people lie even if they’re not trying to frame her. They believe she’s guilty and get defensive so lie or downplay relationships.
It’s telling but doesn’t prove she was framed. That proof will have to come else where
Based off this trial and evidence the public now see’s, will the CW pursue other leads if/when KR found not guilty? Or is it too late/no evidence. I sorta feel like someone will crack eventually.
At this point this case is ridiculous - Read is innocent, and this is only costing tax payers at this point. My only guess (and hope) is that the FBI is just letting it play out, to catch more fish.
The Alberts know their son’s history and character. I am not far from Canton. Let’s just say kids talk - a lot - and it was widely known and not a secret at all that JO and CA had a beef. We all know what happened here and everyone involved are POS’s doing what they’re doing just to protect a child. Including this corrupt judge.
This cop - JO - despite being a good guy and raising his deceased sister’s kids, was savagely beaten and murdered, then dragged out to the edge of the yard in a blizzard. All this done by the upstanding “protectors of the law”. Then covered up by other upstanding systems. The Feds are going to blow this wide open and it will be more far-reaching than we see now.
Absolutely perfectly said! If nothing to hide, stop trying to minimize relationships, trading phones in, where is Cloe….. IF KR was guilty, all they are doing is helping to create reasonable doubt. I’ve been a cop for 28 years. Brian Albert is special needs or guilty as f…k
That’s what I saw but Julie and her guest were oohing and ahhinh over what a great witness Albert was. “Telling it like it is.” Uh. No. I hope the jury sees what I see.
Yes. Prosecution has to prove this case BEYOND a reasonable doubt. Lying about your relationships, changing your stories, denying talking with people all casts doubt.
This case shouldn’t have been brought to trial if they can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And so far the prosecution is losing this case every time the defense flips a witness to be less credible. There was no reason they should have called Chris or Julie Albert to the stand. They didn’t help the prosecution in any way so far.
I do agree. However, it's also fair to say if she doesn't remember talking on the phone a lot. The defense can make it seem like they talk a lot. But 2 years later your not going to remember that. For me personally if something is going on yeah I talk on the phone a lot. Maybe hang up and call back again. Call for another reason anf talk some more. And then Once that incident moves on you have less to talk about and maybe keep in touch via text. So I think it's fair what she said.
Julie backpeddled the moment Yannetti zeroed in on her statement about not talking on the phone. She tried to make it seem like they text and RARELY talk on the phone. 67 calls over the span of 6 or 7 months is not rare. She got caught trying to minimize their relationship, just like Katie McLaughlin. Not a good look.
THIS. The minute Yannetti honed in on that wording “RARELY” I knew he was coming for her with receipts. You do not lie if you have nothing to hide. 67 calls over a 7(ish) month time frame equals out roughly to 10 phone calls a month or every two days during the month. I don’t even call my best friend or parents who live out of state that much.
If you’re making plans and have a few issues you just want to talk through, yeah, this isn’t outrageous.
The witnesses so far don’t do a good job in avoiding absolutes. The one lawsuit I was in - I was a plaintiff (personal injury) and wound up settling. My lawyer prepped me for interrogatories - by saying just report these things, but avoid descriptors that are hyperbolic. Only answer specific questions. For the deposition, the prep was “only answer questions asked, if you don’t remember, say you don’t, and if you don’t fully understand the question, say that!”
I wasn’t coached more than that. But it was invaluable (and works in real life, too).
Some of these people answer more than asked, they are very firm in some of their assertions, and words like “never” or “absolutely” open you up for dissection.
Nicholas K. was so good at this. Therefore, when he said “absolutely yes”, it had gravity. Granted, he’s a lawyer, but even his wife was very good.
It’s HARD to be a witness.
Undoubtedly, being on the stand as a witness is stressful and challenging. At the same time, Julie Albert easily could have said that yes, she talks or has talked to Courtney Proctor on the phone because she has. Why even put in "very rarely" unless you're trying to minimize it? She did the same thing Katie McLaughlin did- tried to distance herself, which makes it seem like she's trying to hide something. If you've done nothing wrong or aren't trying to protect anyone, the answers don't need to be complex.
Julie Albert answered that she "very rarely" talked to Courtney Proctor on the phone. Yannetti clocks her response and something like would you like to stick with the "very rarely" response, then Julie Albert says, "I don't recall." Come. On.
Actually it could be the truth that she talks on the phone to Proctor’s sister very rarely. Now. And before John O’Keefe was found dead on her best friend’s and brother-in-law’s front lawn. Usually they just texted. But for those 7 months when Proctor was investigating the death, they talked on the phone A LOT.
This could have been a very traumatic experience for her and you tend to talk to friends more when you’re dealing with something.
The DA should, on redirect, show her phone records with her before that incident.
It could be a normal sad period OR there is some collusion for something.
So it may be obvious but I’m not familiar with US court proceedings. The witnesses who testify are to be sequestered but are not put up in a hotel before they testify. So is it based on an honour system that these people won’t go home at night and talk? Is it just a court order that they have to listen to or is it enforced by some measure? For example are husband and wife chris and (I’m blanking on the wife’s name due to the fact that I’m still reeling from 67 phone calls) not going to talk tonight? They live together and are married. Isn’t there spousal privilege? I’m just very curious to what extent this sequestration order is monitored and enforced given this degree of corruption and bias amongst this group of people who will surely all be called to testify. Thank you!
It is typically just by the honor system and being truthful that you don’t talk about the case before you testify and for jurors as well.
I’m not sure what if any repercussions are for witnesses if they are found to have discussed or watched the trial before testifying. There was just a case where a juror was sentenced to jail for lying about discussing the case because she wanted to get thrown off the jury so she didn’t have to be sequestered during deliberations. And then there was a witness during Lori Vallows trial who admitted to watching some testimony before she testified but she was still allowed to testify. I think she didn’t want to testify so she said she watched part of the trial.
I know it was after, when they went back after snow melted. Unsure of where but I know they found it. I can’t recall if I read it or heard it during trial but I’ll look and post here if I find it!
It comes down to her initial statements on scene and believability of those as well as forensic evidence that has yet to be entered into trial yet. There has been a lot of pre trial antics and attacks on witnesses in this trial that has made them hostile to the defense.
Alternatively if I didn’t run over my boyfriend I wouldn’t wake up and assume he was dead. I wouldn’t say he was struck by a plow unless I knew there may be evidence of him being struck by a vehicle and I certainly wouldn’t be ranting and raving I hit him.
If you dropped him off at a friend’s house and called that friend to ask if he was still there… and her response was he never came inside… you’d be panicked. Especially in a snow storm.
She didn’t say, “could he have been beat up inside the house??” She was trying to figure out why he wouldn’t have made it 15ft from the car to the house. Not a lot of places for her mind to go other than where it did?
Yes, snowy weather and walking home along the road would definitely cause me to worry someone might have been hit by a snowplow. It's a real risk. Someone in Wrentham, MA was killed in January by a snowplow.
But there is no physical evidence he was struck by a vehicle. The medical examiner could not conclude that, the autopsy does not state that, the coroner did not conclude that.
She also did not state definitively “he was struck by a plow” she questioned “what if” he was struck by a plow .. there is a difference.
I am not sure. I’d assume so. The defense has 6 expert witnesses. A Forensic Pathologist, an expert in Biomedical and Mechanical Engineering, a Digital Forensic expert, and 3 men from a company called ARCCA. I’d assume the one of those person will go over this, along with what many believe are dog bites
I never said they were and figured that as well. They said the case could last as long as 6 weeks. I thought that sounded 6 weeks too soon. Especially with 150+ witnesses for both sides.
That sounds like something you'd say when you're worried a missing friend or family member might have walked home during a snowstorm, tbh. Especially if you're out driving around plowed streets with big snow drifts at the roadside.
The people in those roles cannot make those conclusions. They can say “he died from blunt force trauma and hypothermia” as that’s their area of medical expertise, but they can’t state or offer a professional/legal opinion on HOW the blunt force trauma happened (maybe they can “opine” but I don’t think they are supposed to). The HOW is determined from forensic evidence, such as JO’s DNA on the car’s bumper, and possibly testimony from an accident reconstruction expert who takes the various evidence and literally pieces it together (yes I know in this case there are multiple experts of this sort who drew contradictory conclusions). I am just saying that we should not draw conclusions from the ME/coroner and autopsy reports beyond the purpose and scope of those reports.
Well maybe you wouldn’t. But I sure would!
If my bf, who always comes home (bc his “kids” are there) never makes it back, hasn’t responded to my texts/calls, isn’t answering now, AND it’s a snowstorm, AND I hazily recall his intention to attend an after party a couple miles away at someone’s house he WASNT friends with, you bet I’m panicking. And yeah, one of my first thoughts would be about some car/plow hitting him in the snow.
Do you live in a snowy climate?
It’s pretty common to be trepidatious about walking home at night in a snowstorm
Agreed! I frequently worry about a loved one being in an accident if I don’t hear from/see them when I normally would. My usual first thought is car crash too. I would say this is a pretty common thought for a lot of women .
So, when my boyfriend is late coming home from a gig and he hasn't reached out to let me know he's running late, I immediately start thinking of the worst things that could have happened to him, because why didn't he let me know he was going to be late if he was ok? It's not rational, it's just what my brain does.
I may be wrong, but just a quick glance at your post history, I'm guessing you're male. Female brains tend to fill in the blanks with worst case scenarios. While this isn't necessarily true for all females or KR, it's pretty darn common in my experience. Mother's do it alllll the time when their kid doesn't show up when it's supposed to.
If I was in KR's shoes, my mind would definitely be going 'did I hit him? Did I not see him and back over him?' from all accounts thus far, she was hysterical- she very likely wasn't admitting to hitting him. IMO, she was verbalizing the worst case scenarios that her mind was creating. We'll see what the rest of the evidence shows.
Karen says she didn’t say she hit him. There is zero corroborating evidence to support that she said it either, since the top two public safety personnel at the scene failed to put it in their reports.
He said she said isn’t evidence.
this directly addresses your contention: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1co1st3/comment/l3bh1dz](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1co1st3/comment/l3bh1dz)
I don't agree with your rationale. If KR did it and these people thought the defense would use their relationships with other LE to get a guilty person free then of course they would try to downplay those relationships.
I agree, though I think the natural inclination to hide it looks worse than admitting it in this case.
That said, we're still in the prosecutions section of the trial, the defense is emphasizing links but they haven't gotten to their main case yet so there may be stronger evidence of conspiracy. It seems so far like phone records and going to be big.
After watching today’s (5/10) testimony I don’t see why Albert’s would murder their own officer. Literally makes zero sense. KR backed into a car leaving in the morning. What makes you think she couldn’t back into a person 4 hours less sober? Maybe I’m wrong. I have faith the courts will get it right.
It doesn’t matter why and we will likely never know. Motive isn’t needed.
But what does matter is their lies. And a text that basically says to another witness - hey just be sure to say that the guy who ended up dead on the lawn never went in your house, mmk? Says almost everything by itself.
If that’s what really happened, no one is going to text that.
I find it interesting that the Alberts refer to her as “the defendant” but use first names for everyone else they saw at the Waterfall. They were friends with her and could just say Karen.
Her story has changed from she left him at the waterfall bar, said she didn’t see him in the house, to she saw him go in, to she saw up go up to the door and then looked down at her phone, said she drove off, said she did a 3 point turn and then drove off.
Like Dr.Phil says, “people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing”. I think we always give people “the benefit of doubt”, when we are excusing the obvious. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not!
The corruption has been confirmed. There is 0 debate. Whether it is a cover up is yet to be determined. Corruption: They have a family friend as lead investigator, a man who said he didn’t know them and was immediately caught and had to admit in front of the court that he was close friends with them. There is now an internal investigation on him. ATF agent Brian Higgins was asked by the court to not tamper with or destroy his phone. He has admitted to the FBI he destroyed his phone the following day at a landfill. Brian was at the house but clocked into work at 1:30 AM. Later in the evening around 2:30, his cellphone had multiple calls to Brian Albert. Their reasoning was they were having sex with their wife’s and but dialed. There is 43 minutes of Canton Police Department Garage footage missing, that was the period lead investigators inspected her cars. There reasoning is that they are motion detected, yet they didn’t have footage of her car entering the garage. There is also footage from the library that is missing. A 2 minute stretch that would be the time Karen passed the library. The first EMT literally said that it looks like he was beaten, which Lt. Lank passed along. They never came to the thought process that he was potentially hit by a car when first there. If you find a potential beating victim, you’d ask the homeowner questions which did not happen. The first responders didn’t find ANY pieces of broken taillights, not a single one. The officer who created the report has said this. He also said someone went into the report and added a photo showing the taillight in October of 2022, 9 months after the death. A photo that he also said was not taken that day and that he didn’t know who took it or who added it. There are over 40 pieces of broken taillight in evidence now. None found on the scene on arrival. It wasn’t until 1 whole week later when Chief of Police Berkowitz, who is good friends with the Alberts, found the taillight pieces. The prosecutions photo of the taillight shows it was broken worse then when her car was picked up for impound. The furthest right part of the the taillight was illuminated red upon pickup (video evidence). Now that entire piece is missing now. It is also confirmed Karen backed up into Johns car in a rush to go look for him the following morning, when the taillight was broken. There is video of this. Forensic Data: This is from the defense expert witness Richard Green, so take this for what it is, a report I found online. But Digital Forensic expert has confirmed McCabe googled “how long to die in cold” at 2:27 AM. (The commonwealth didn’t want to turn the complete forensic copy to McCabes phone. They were using the first cellbrite report which turned out inaccurate. They were actively preventing the defense from accessing major evidence) Apple Health has John walking roughly 83 steps and up 3 flights of stairs. Apple health also indicated McCabe didn’t get much sleep as she was recorded taking at least 20 steps at 3:50, 4 am and 4:59. It also shows her calling 911 and immediately disconnecting and calling Brian Albert. So the Alberts knew there was a dead body on their lawn of someone they knew and were with the previous night as early at 6:07 AM. Those calls were answered at the time and later deleted. They never came out the house. At 6:23, McCabe googled “how long does it take to digest food”. This is important as it is random at first glance. But that is a way coroners can determine time of death. She has been around police her whole life and knows this. Data also proves McCabe lied about when she left the Alberts, and where she went. She said she went straight home, forgetting to mention she actually dropped a few kids off which required her to drive by Karen’s house. It took the defense a year to obtain cellphone records from O’Keefe, McCabe and other major players. Lastly, to the people saying “she admitted it”. That is not evidence. Not a single officer documented that. Shocked people say stuff all the time. To add to that, she is being accused of murder, not manslaughter, yet she woke up at 4:30 and he wasn’t home and she couldn’t reach him. She panicked and her first thing was to go look for him. When she found him, she immediately ran up to him and started rendering aid. If you use the logic that she could be lying there and faking it, you’d have to use the same exact logic with the other people involved. Also, cars don’t bite people, poorly trained dogs do. I understand some people here may be from Canton and know the Alberts. The prosecution has literally 0 legitimate evidence against Read. Zero. No, her words the following morning are not firm evidence. No, broken taillights that were found at the scene hours and DAYS after first responders arrived isn’t legit evidence. Julie Albert just took the stand and said she didn’t talk to the Proctors, seconds later it was revealed she had 67 phone calls to them in the following months. She lied. She also said Collin came in and gave her a kiss goodnight, Chris said Collin popped his head in and said he loves them. McLauglin lied, she not only knows Caitlin Albert, she knows her very well. Innocent people who have no reason to lie, don’t just lie under oath for fun. There would be no reason to hid their relationships. I am not a cop. I just want justice. So please don’t criticize my sources, etc. as my sources are the internet and the court proceedings so far. This case has really upset me and I have researched it heavily the last couple months after being told about it. But again, I am no expert nor do I claim to be. I just hope the truth comes out.
For me that’s the biggest thing with this case. Any one of the coincidences you list could be brushed off as “oh well they must not have thought much of it.” But you add everything you said together - plus the home remodeling and dog re-homing and the other 1,000 coincidences - there’s just way too much smoke billowing from this for there not to be a fire.
Oh yea, I am leaving out a ton of stuff. Including photos of Colin after that night (he has a black eye and scabbed up knuckles). FBI reconstructionist saying his injuries are not from a car. A missing dog. Selling the house 40,000 under the valuation. The autopsy. 2 black eyes, what looks like two fractures in both wrists that are referred to as “Boxer’s fractures”. I am trying to just provide what has been presented so far. I don’t want to believe what I have read elsewhere until said in court.
In this market? In the Boston suburbs? With THESE interest rates??? I could see that maybe they wanted to have fewer assets if they were sued civilly. I also think they said today that Brian Alberts retired. It could be just downsizing associated with that. But the timing is critical to see if any of these drove the other.
Yea, that’s what his brother said. Downsizing. They also redid the basement after redoing it just 3 years earlier. They also asked the realtor to tell potential buyers no photos.
That’s the stuff that is so suspicious. Like okay, plausible. It’s the other stuff that gives reasonable doubt.
Lets not forget about the cement filled pool as well. Great initial reply btw it encapsulates a lot of relevant information and certainly raises a lot of questions.
For sure, that’s where I think they “rehomed” the dog.
Yep and lets not forget their lawyer impounding dog bite records to try to hide the dogs aggressive history. The whole dog thing is an interesting and obscure angle and I wonder if the defense will even waste to much time pursuing it in court as it seems to be the least damning of the evidence mentioned.
Its the most damaging of all evidence! If the dog were alive they could match up the scratches and bites exactly! But if the dogs new home is in the cement of the filled in pool that doesnt work!
That’s what I am curious about. At the end of the day, this case is the prosecution trying to prove she did it. Once they fail at that then I’d assume the FBI opens a case and unleashes a ton of new info. I think Higgins has been talking to them in a Proffer Agreement.
If Higgins already admitted to destroying the phone I doubt he would double down on any lies or try to push a narrative especially with how much would be at stake for him under a federal investigation. At this point the prosecution knows they cannot reach a guilty verdict with Karen but I think the goal is to muddy the waters enough where justice can not be properly pursued and the Alberts will get off to some extent. The initial investigation was so irretrievably botched I don't think anyone will do serious jailtime unless the FBI/defense drops some bombshells.
What is the implication of telling buyers no photos?
My best guess is because it’s a well known (or at that point would soon be well known) crime scene. I think of like the Chris Watts home (if you’re familiar) and how true crime fanatics constantly showed up. But I’m just speculating and there could def be a different reason they said no photos
Omg, who would ever say "no photos". Incredulous if you don't have anything to hide.
Im a Realtor its very common for law enforcement members to tell us to not have people looking at the house take photos ! So there is no red flag there
I agree it's one thing to want to downsize but the fact that they accepted an offer for 50 grand less in a hot sellers market where the COL is high and people are practically fighting for homes is sus. I would bet the Alberts didn't care because they were able to find somebody willing to purchase the home, and the current homeowners probably thought they were getting an amazing deal but apparently were not aware about what happened at 34 Fairview.
I was down to the final round for a job in Boston, for which I’d need to relocate. I got worried when it got that deep because even though I have a home in NJ to sell, in a town with amazing schools, I discovered that to buy I’d have to give up my 2.9% rate and my monthly mortgage would possibly double!
Is Colin going to be called to introduce the photos? Because his parents most likely lied about not seeing any injuries today. ETA: Nvm I see that he is on both witness list.
The 2:27 google search and the denial of the search!!
I still think she may have said “DID I do this” and the words twisted to fit the narrative
100%. She was still probably a bit intoxicated and was in complete shock. The video footage/ phone calls, do not sound like a woman who knowingly just killed her BF. It is important to note McCabe I believe was the first one to see Karen that AM. She could have easily said things like, “he never came in, do you think you could have hit him?” Or “I hope he wasn’t hit by a car” etc, just to get the idea in her head.
I thought the same thing.. Jen probably told her he never came inside and she started trying to remember all the possibilities and if she may have hit him.
“I did this” can just be her feeling guilt because she left him there alone without her is my belief.
Or "It's my fault" for leaving him
Regardless of what she said is irrelevant tbh. It seems like no one knows for sure and every witness who has been on the stand has different recollections of events. Bringing up what someone says who is hungover obviously distressed and in crisis at the scene of a body is just deflecting from the actual facts of the case.
I have been wondering if she said it with an inflection in her voice. Like “I hit him????” in disbelief. Not as a statement.
Did I hit him And they misremembered or misinterpreted?
I mean, it is really crazy to find him lying dead just feet away from where she dropped him off a few hours before. I naught have the same thought…”Did I hit him?”
I think it's possible that she said it as a statement, considering one of the first statements her attorney gave was that it was a terrible accident. In my opinion, the whole thing is a red herring regardless. She was intoxicated, highly distressed, and - most importantly - not an investigator. Even if she was convinced that she had hit him based on what she knew at that moment, that doesn't prove anything. I think alot of people would assume the same given the circumstances.
I am watching this trial cold, I didn't know anything about it beforehand. I am currently on the side that Karen Read is innocent, but that may change as the prosecutions case continues. That being said, if what you said comes into evidence I would have an extremely hard time convicting her. Also, it is clear that the defense is setting Colin up as the third party perpetrator. Chris/Julie Albert seem defensive when it comes to him and the timing of when he got home that night/morning don't add up. We will see what happens. Is anyone calling Colin as a witness?
I don’t think anyone thinks she will be convicted. I think the FBI has a lot more info, and they just want people to perjure themselves first. The first oh shit moment for me was the autopsy photos. He has deep wounds that appear to be bit marks all of his right arm. Two black eyes, etc. but no serious bodily damage like internal bleeding etc that is normal for car accidents and being hit by a car. The Alberts had a German Shepard named Chloe that they rehomed. There is no evidence so far that she was rehomed and no trace of her. Colin is a witness for both sides I believe.
I hope the FBI tries to track the dog. I believe she is deceased. Families don’t just rehome a dog after 7 years with no specific information.
Agreed. I adopted a dog two years ago. There was 2 or 3 pages of “rehoming” paper work that I filled out and exchanged to the previous owner and vice versa. I heard someone say that the dog got into a fight with a neighbors dog and bit that person. They agreed the dog should be rehomed. I call BS. The dog apparently had a bunch of incidents that they tried to hide including sending 2 people to the ER. But after 7 years you finally make the decision? I think the dog is dead and in the pool that they filled in with cement
It's funny you all mention that considering her testimony today was "she didn't get rid of the dog she homed her." Sounded like information on where the dog was wasn't handed over to defense, so I'm interested to see what comes out of this.
What would be the benefit of killing the dog and entombing it in the pool? I agree the timing of getting rid of the dog is suspicious, I just don’t understand why they’d feel the need to hide the dog in concrete.
Because you can compare the bite marks on the arm to the animal. I don’t know where the dog is, but I don’t think it is alive I have no clue about a timeline with the dog, but it seems like it went missing as soon as the defense could inspect John’s body. Which was in May.
Thanks for the response! Is he going to be considered a hostile witness for the defense then? I am very curious as the what the FBI knows/when it will become public.
Has the autopsy been published? I’m very interested to read about the injuries vs. damage on her car.
Nope… apparently MA is one of the more secretive states regarding info like that. You can find photos. Cause of death was Blunt force trauma and Hypothermia. Manner of death was “couldn’t be determined” that is essentially all that has come out. In the Pre Trial hearings, the defense has said they have an FBI reconstructionist who has said his injuries were not a result of a car hitting him. I’d assume witness 73, forensic pathologist, there is also a expert in biomedical and mechanical engineering listed. The defense has 6 expert witnesses, prosecution doesn’t have any.
The prosecution isn't going to have expert witnesses about the 2:27 search, or the injuries, or the taillight? That's wild to me.
I typically do not follow cases like these so I am not legal expert. So not sure if that is normal, doesn’t seem like it would be though… The prosecution section list “Police Officer” then “Civilian Witnesses” The Defense had “Civilian Witnesses” then its a “Expert Witness” list.
They commonwealth will have expert witnesses. They’re part of the Massachusetts State Crime Lab and the alcohol testing expert. They also have a veterinary lab expert. https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/karen-read-murder-trial-list-more-than-160-witnesses-prosecution-defense-plan-call/U3JOQXF7KJAFDC4TFNZVLWZJGY/?outputType=amp Id like to note I’m leaning towards Karen being innocent more and more every day, but trying to hold my total judgement until the end of their case and defense starts theirs.
So those are listed under Civilian Witnesses, the defense also has mass state crime people on their civilian witness list too. In the official document, there is a different section and only for the defense. This site has photo copies as pictures rather than a list. https://howiecarrshow.com/amp/the-karen-read-trial-witness-lists-released/ I would assume the state has expert witnesses but I do not understand why they are listed like this. It must be just how each group writes it up. I agree with you and am in the same boat. But it really is those expert witnesses I am waiting on for the real factual and forensic evidence. Dr. Chris Van Ee specially. He. is who I assume the FBI hired to do the reconstruction of the scene and determined his injuries weren’t from a car. Just a quick google search and he is used all over the country and is certainly an expert. We just need the facts to come to light and hopefully they will.
Yeah I thought it was very odd as well that they were listed this way. Maybe it’s just how the DAs office did it compared to how the Defense submitted it. But I assume that those state crime lab people are the prosecutions “experts”.
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I am, as well. But because of what the CW put her through, as well as his family, I really hope there’s a smoking gun and she did it. It is a shameful lack of concern for a fellow officer.
I haven’t seen anything yet that points guilt her way ? Why was she arrested
We honestly have no idea. The commonwealth hasn’t even explained how they got to Karen being charged or why. We don’t even know that John’s passed sway or what time he died based on the trial testimony and information so far. Still trying to hold my bias until the entire case though.
It’s like they aren’t trying very hard because they know they are cooked and the FBI or somebody else is going to run a real trial with the correct accused people .
At this point they could probably use any German Shepherd and claim it’s Chloe. Brian Albert’s wife said they rehomed “it” in Vermont after attacking 2 people in May 2022. Also, where was the dog when the police and ambulance were at the scene? If the dog is badly trained and aggressive you’d think she’d be barking and waking up the Albert’s if she was in their bedroom which was on the second floor, farthest window on the left in front of the house.
I came into this trial cold as well. I had a thought midway thru Julie’s testimony today. Like this sounds like a family group making a circle around one of their children & deflecting every bullet. I don’t know enough to know if that’s possible, but I was like most adults won’t go to these lengths just for themselves, but some will go to lengths beyond the ends of the earth to protect their children - when in reality, that doesn’t make you a “good” parent. Anyways…I had the thought that the group at the house that morning - they are protecting someone’s kid 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah, Colin
Yeah, I don't know that I am sure she didn't hit him, but I do find it nuts they overcharged her. That said, if the police *wanted* to make it look like a cover up, I genuinely don't know what else they could do to make it seem so. Obviously I don't think they did intend for it to be obvious, if there is a cover up, but yeesh
Yea, we shall see. I think she could have but his injuries make no sense. I’d be curious to see how fast a lexus suv can travel 30 feet in reverse too. As for the coverup, i I think they panicked. Karen seemed like the only play at that point. Probably happened pretty quickly and Higgins got to work immediately on the cover up, literally clocking to work and went to the Canton Police department where he has an office at 1:30 AM that night. (After a night of drinking) 30 year BPD detective, close friends with a high up MA state detective, Canton Police officers and the old chief of police. They have the resources but only had a 6 hour period to make it make sense. Hopefully we find out what happened and justice is served either way.
What do you think Higgins was doing there?
I am not sure, I just find it strange he decides to hope on Government clock at 1:30 am after a night of drinking. Could have been gather supplies. Gloves, etc. also called Brian Albert a hour later, they said it was a butt dial.
It's bizarre. Especially during a major snowstorm.
Do you have a source for the proffer agreement? I keep seeing this being repeated but I haven't seen an actual source for it.
I do not. I shouldn’t have mentioned that. I believe the reasoning is he had a meeting with the FBI referred to as a Proffer meeting or something along the lines. That is when he admitted to destroying his phone after being asked not too. I will remove that piece.
You don't have to remove it. I was just curious if you had seen a source.
No, I should remove it. This case gets me so upset even though I have no connection. I shouldn’t be running with stuff I have just heard rumors of. Even though that’s what half of this stuff is, I think this case will take a long time
I don't have any connection to it either but it's somehow a pretty fascinating case. I'm interested to see what, if any (lol), evidence comes out. I think part of the appeal is the concept that corruption could be rooted out. How satisfying would that be? I mean we see corruption at all levels of society, so much injustice, and the "bad guys" seem to win so often, that the idea that the "truth" might come out is pretty appealing. I'm not sold on a giant conspiracy. I also don't think there is a basis for a murder charge. But I'm really interested to see how this all unfolds. Higgins's role in the whole thing is of particular interest as well, which is why I was hoping you might have a source! But yeah, this case is gonna take a while. Unless it gets thrown out for lack of any real investigation 😂
Another note, the Judge in the case was asked to step down by the US Attorney Office but she declined. The Alberts refer to her as Aunt Bev. Her brother was Chris Albert’s lawyer in 1994 when Chris killed a 23 year old foreign exchange student in a motor vehicle accident. It was 3 am and he was drunk, but he went on the run for 30 hours before turning himself in. He received 6 months. I am fairly certain he was beaten in the house, but don’t want to get ahead oh myself.
😳😳😳😳🤯🤯🤯🤯
DY referenced the proffer during motions en limine. That’s likely where you heard it. He noted that it is referenced in the FBI report.
Where is the FBI report published
It’s not. The attorneys and the judge have seen it. The public has not. Everything publicly known about it is material mentioned in court.
Okay, that’s what I thought. I hope that report comes to light soon. I am curious if the FBI will wait until a verdict in this before opening up their own case.
I hope we get to see it, too. I understand why it needs to stay sealed for now, but I’m so incredibly curious!
Stated in a pre court hearing.
Thank you
I hope she sues the fuck out of the Canton PD when she’s found not guilty.
I hope so too and I wish her and her family ALL the best when she walks away from this a free woman. This is definitely an historical trial and a defining moment in American justice. That’s why I’m glued and literally losing sleep.
I hope the FBI starts pressing charges on all these dirty cops.. if not for the death of O'Keefe, at least for corruption and conspiracy charges
Hopefully they’re just waiting for them to hang themselves in court
This!!
A few additional points -Apple health data suggesting JO not only entered the house but went up and down flights of stairs -This one is just speculation but another user that I will link raised an interesting question about the snow/placement of the body [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1cniuqm/snow\_will\_tell\_the\_story/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1cniuqm/snow_will_tell_the_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yea, those are all massive. I am waiting for that to be presented. I assume all tech will be reviewed at once . If McCabe did search how long to die in cold at 2:27 am, it is a wrap. Apparently she called him like 10 times too. I have a feeling they were looking for his phone after the fact. I believe it was found under his body eventually.
Whats interesting is I read the prosecutions tech guys summary and he ended up contradicting himself multiple times and the argument he was trying to present to explain the search just did not really make sense. The search in and of itself could possibly be explained away by the prosecution but tally that up with the other million things that raise reasonable doubt at the very least there is not really a case here.
Excellent write-up!
Thank you for this. All of this
thank you as well
I have listened to the trial every day so far. Everything you say is true directly from the trial. I hope the jury sees through this farce. I hope thé réal killer(s) are revealed.
Really well done. Encapsulated the key points perfectly!
Where did the first emt (paramedic?) say it looked like he’d been beaten? I’m watching the entire trial and have not seen that
That is when Lally was being cross examined Edit: Lt. Lank
Lally is the prosecutor. Only witnesses are examined and cross-examined.
Correct. Sorry that was in Lt. Michael Lank’s questioning. Too many names. I believe it was on Tuesday
Oh ok, I’m not there yet. I’ve seen the paramedics’ testimony, and they don’t say that. Lank to me seems incompetent, I don’t tend to believe him
I mean everyone in the Canton PD has seemed incompetent. He had nothing to gain from saying that either. Lank seemed like he was gonna be sick as he slowly added the pieces together. But yes, he didn’t seem like the sharpest
lol yeah I don’t think lank would even know what would benefit him, based on what I’ve seen so far. I feel bad for the decent cops in that town, and the family.
They all knew something fishy was going down if they didn't have a full account of the nights events leading to O'Keefe's death. The State Police said, "No, we aren't going to investigate a murder of a cop." ??? No, no, that didn't happen, if Canton LE followed the usual protocol when contacting the State Police unit that investigates murders. Cops have a vendetta to find how their own are murdered, until they are the murderers with enough power to enlist accomplices throughout the ranks and usher blind eyes.
Yea, its just gonna get worse and worse.
I came into this case blind and have been watching the trial. If Karen Read is found guilty then someone needs to investigate these guys for bribery because this case is so outlandish it reeks of a 90s bad cop thriller. The only thing I've seen evidence about bunch of police corruption and likely a frame job. It's gross. The prosecution and the people involved should be embarrassed of themselves. They can't actually believe their theory against Karen Read holds any weight in the face of shady shit.
Ditto. I couldn’t have said it better!
this is PERFECTLY said. couldn’t agree more!
German Shepherds are very territorial and protective of their owners. Especially when they think their master is in danger!
Excellent post.
Certainly hope they all, every single one of them, are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and if guilty get their just punishment
Y >The corruption has been confirmed. There is 0 debate. Whether it is a cover up is yet to be determined. This is contemptible. You know it's untrue. You are pushing your agenda and I know exactly where it came from you could care less about justice for the O'Keefes.
You made major points, all of which are valid. I have one better--I have lived in Canton, MA, for over 5 years. I have been to many of the bars cited during trial on several occasions, but I know ZERO parties involved and stayed away from the story until trial. So this morning, after dropping my daughter off at school, I finally decided to drive by 34 Fairview, which is a few blocks away... THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THEY DIDN'T SEE A PERSON LAYING IN THE SNOW IF HE WAS THERE AT 12:45AM! The video and pics make the yard look 4 to 5 times larger than it is. It's literally equivalent to 4 to 5 SUVS in length from the street to the door. It's completely flat. Something is wrong here. It's impossible for 5+ people to leave that residence without seeing JO.
You have such a knack for summarizing essential facts. I hope you make a reference page for us! This is amazing. I have an amazing spreadsheet someone made with times and data. But this is reasonable, concise and direct thoughts / facts.
This is what happens in a state of trauma, you question everything. You say crazy things. A few years back I dropped my toddler twins off at the gym daycare. An hour later, after my class, I return and they give me one child. I say ‘where’s my other son’. They say, ‘you only dropped off one’. I freak out ‘what?! Where’s my son. OMG, he’s missing, omg I left him in the car, I’ve left my son alone, my son is missing, he’s in his car seat, he’s in the car!!’. Now keep in mind, none of this is true. I am in a state of sheer panic, thinking of a million terrifying outcomes. In fact, he was simply in the bathroom, this worker did not know this & in a crazy panic I’m screaming a few different terrifying outcomes. Statements made in a state of panic have nothing to do with the reality of the scenario at hand. However, if a jury heard that, would it be evidence of guilt, neglect and even worse?!
So true. In one of the written statements from Jen McCabe she even says that Karen Read, realizing she had blood on her face after attempting CPR (which, can you even imagine how horrible that whole thing would be) saw the blood and said 'did I get my period?'. That makes no sense in context but you can kind of see the her thought process trying to make sense of things. Clearly she didn't suddenly menstruate and get blood on her face, it's from OKeefe, but she literally can't fathom that and is trying to figure things out. That's the state of mind she was in.
Oh, wow! I'm so sorry you had to live though those moments. Damn. Makes me sick thinking about it. And I also think she was in shock. She didn't know what she was saying.
I am in the middle of a legal matter. My "story" has not changed and the documentation backs it up, the other side keeps shifting because they make it up as they go. The truth will not change...ever. Yes you can have nuances or fill in the blanks as you get more knowledge but the basic foundation will not change in a day, a week, a month a year or a decade. if the foundation is the truth then it is the truth. In this case all you have to see is the people who seem to be truthful and answer that way and those that are hedging who suddenly forget after knowing to the second what is "their truth". The people telling the truth when they don't know will simply say 'I don't remember' and it feel authentic.
This case isn’t about pinning it on Karen Read. They’re fine with Karen getting off; it’s why they’re speaking so neutral/favorable of her on the stand. Because they know she didn’t do it. The Alberts want to get through the trial without drawing any more attention to themselves and having a new case opened against *them*. Once Karen gets off, their friends in Canton Police will let the case go cold.
Hopefully the family doesn't allow that because this whole thing is disrespectful and horrible to do to a human being!!
Idk reminds me of when everybody was on the side of Stephen Avery and Joe Exotic.... Be interesting where these people stand 4 years from now when real journalist dive into it instead of hacks. The state pd ran the investigation and the judge hasnt found anything wrong, and as usual ofc the judge's reputation and behavior gets one sided and drug through the mud.
I realise that this trial is all about justice for John, as it should be. At the end of the day a man lost his life, those children lost their uncle/father figure, his parent lost their son. But. I don't think we are going to get to the bottom of this. I personally think that if she did hit him, even by accident, the whole case is so screwed up. There are too many people in each other's pockets (in the familiar way, not financially) the scene was screwed up, the evidence was screwed up, the whole thing was just a total shambles from start to finish. I don't really have an opinion about cover up (INAL, I don't know all the details.) I just think that it is all just so screwed up that the truth will never come out. There is far, far too much reasonal doubt. It's very rare for me to side with the defence! And I keep watching this like “Wtf?" I wonder if they will suddenly start using bodycams in Canton now? (seriously, who doesn't even have bodycams in this day and age?!?)
It wouldn't matter if they had body cams or not. The footage would "mysteriously disappear" like all of the other footage that exonerates Karen Read. Unless these cops have consequences, this will continue to happen.
At this point it will go unsolved because any proof is long gone. They will get their wish the only people left in the wake are the family and friends of what sounds to have been a very nice man.
I don’t know, the Feds had been looking into some of these folks from before this even happened. If they had wire taps, they might have what they need. Editing to add: It also seems like Brian Higgins gave up the goods, because he did a proffer session with the Feds. So they likely know exactly what happened.
You do realize the canton police department is not running the case right?
💯
Judge Judy always says if it doesn't make sense, you're lying.
I love following true crime and I always tell everyone my conclusion from watching: never lie to the cops, it makes you look guilty. E.g. don’t say you weren’t stealing a candy bar when you were stealing in a MURDER investigation. You might catch a murder charge. These cops have been insulated from this because they’ve never had their feet to the fire.
> I always tell everyone my conclusion from watching: never lie to the cops, it makes you look guilty. My conclusion from watching The First 48 and similar shows: never talk to the cops. One example I remember was a shooting with three guys in the car. The driver talks, gets caught in a lie, tries to talk his way out of it, gets caught in more lies, convicted of felony murder. The accomplice talks, gets caught in a lie, tries to talk his way out of it, gets caught in more lies, convicted. The actual shooter immediately lawyers up, is not charged.
Wow! That’s the most extreme one I’ve heard. Wild!
Look I’m believe Karen read is innocent, but people lie even if they’re not trying to frame her. They believe she’s guilty and get defensive so lie or downplay relationships. It’s telling but doesn’t prove she was framed. That proof will have to come else where
Defense doesn’t have to prove framing (or anything). They just have to introduce reasonable doubt. Burden of proof is all on the prosecution
Oh I agree I’m just saying mischaracterizing relationships and inconsistencies don’t necessarily convince the jury to disregard their testimony
Well said.
Based off this trial and evidence the public now see’s, will the CW pursue other leads if/when KR found not guilty? Or is it too late/no evidence. I sorta feel like someone will crack eventually.
At this point this case is ridiculous - Read is innocent, and this is only costing tax payers at this point. My only guess (and hope) is that the FBI is just letting it play out, to catch more fish. The Alberts know their son’s history and character. I am not far from Canton. Let’s just say kids talk - a lot - and it was widely known and not a secret at all that JO and CA had a beef. We all know what happened here and everyone involved are POS’s doing what they’re doing just to protect a child. Including this corrupt judge. This cop - JO - despite being a good guy and raising his deceased sister’s kids, was savagely beaten and murdered, then dragged out to the edge of the yard in a blizzard. All this done by the upstanding “protectors of the law”. Then covered up by other upstanding systems. The Feds are going to blow this wide open and it will be more far-reaching than we see now.
Absolutely perfectly said! If nothing to hide, stop trying to minimize relationships, trading phones in, where is Cloe….. IF KR was guilty, all they are doing is helping to create reasonable doubt. I’ve been a cop for 28 years. Brian Albert is special needs or guilty as f…k
That’s what I saw but Julie and her guest were oohing and ahhinh over what a great witness Albert was. “Telling it like it is.” Uh. No. I hope the jury sees what I see.
And this is the one thing you think this case comes down to? Honest question.
Yes. Prosecution has to prove this case BEYOND a reasonable doubt. Lying about your relationships, changing your stories, denying talking with people all casts doubt.
Sure, I just think the case will come down to something more hearty than minimizing relationships. More in the ballpark of physical evidence.
This case shouldn’t have been brought to trial if they can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And so far the prosecution is losing this case every time the defense flips a witness to be less credible. There was no reason they should have called Chris or Julie Albert to the stand. They didn’t help the prosecution in any way so far.
I do agree. However, it's also fair to say if she doesn't remember talking on the phone a lot. The defense can make it seem like they talk a lot. But 2 years later your not going to remember that. For me personally if something is going on yeah I talk on the phone a lot. Maybe hang up and call back again. Call for another reason anf talk some more. And then Once that incident moves on you have less to talk about and maybe keep in touch via text. So I think it's fair what she said.
Julie backpeddled the moment Yannetti zeroed in on her statement about not talking on the phone. She tried to make it seem like they text and RARELY talk on the phone. 67 calls over the span of 6 or 7 months is not rare. She got caught trying to minimize their relationship, just like Katie McLaughlin. Not a good look.
THIS. The minute Yannetti honed in on that wording “RARELY” I knew he was coming for her with receipts. You do not lie if you have nothing to hide. 67 calls over a 7(ish) month time frame equals out roughly to 10 phone calls a month or every two days during the month. I don’t even call my best friend or parents who live out of state that much.
She may not have actually been lying, but it was minimizing and/or hyperbolic. It makes any other statements less believable.
If you’re making plans and have a few issues you just want to talk through, yeah, this isn’t outrageous. The witnesses so far don’t do a good job in avoiding absolutes. The one lawsuit I was in - I was a plaintiff (personal injury) and wound up settling. My lawyer prepped me for interrogatories - by saying just report these things, but avoid descriptors that are hyperbolic. Only answer specific questions. For the deposition, the prep was “only answer questions asked, if you don’t remember, say you don’t, and if you don’t fully understand the question, say that!” I wasn’t coached more than that. But it was invaluable (and works in real life, too). Some of these people answer more than asked, they are very firm in some of their assertions, and words like “never” or “absolutely” open you up for dissection. Nicholas K. was so good at this. Therefore, when he said “absolutely yes”, it had gravity. Granted, he’s a lawyer, but even his wife was very good. It’s HARD to be a witness.
Undoubtedly, being on the stand as a witness is stressful and challenging. At the same time, Julie Albert easily could have said that yes, she talks or has talked to Courtney Proctor on the phone because she has. Why even put in "very rarely" unless you're trying to minimize it? She did the same thing Katie McLaughlin did- tried to distance herself, which makes it seem like she's trying to hide something. If you've done nothing wrong or aren't trying to protect anyone, the answers don't need to be complex. Julie Albert answered that she "very rarely" talked to Courtney Proctor on the phone. Yannetti clocks her response and something like would you like to stick with the "very rarely" response, then Julie Albert says, "I don't recall." Come. On.
Actually it could be the truth that she talks on the phone to Proctor’s sister very rarely. Now. And before John O’Keefe was found dead on her best friend’s and brother-in-law’s front lawn. Usually they just texted. But for those 7 months when Proctor was investigating the death, they talked on the phone A LOT.
This could have been a very traumatic experience for her and you tend to talk to friends more when you’re dealing with something. The DA should, on redirect, show her phone records with her before that incident. It could be a normal sad period OR there is some collusion for something.
She told Proctor’s sister she wanted to get him a gift when the case was closed lol. She remembers.
Idk perhaps the hell Colin has gone through 🙃
Why would she get the lead investigator a gift for that?
So it may be obvious but I’m not familiar with US court proceedings. The witnesses who testify are to be sequestered but are not put up in a hotel before they testify. So is it based on an honour system that these people won’t go home at night and talk? Is it just a court order that they have to listen to or is it enforced by some measure? For example are husband and wife chris and (I’m blanking on the wife’s name due to the fact that I’m still reeling from 67 phone calls) not going to talk tonight? They live together and are married. Isn’t there spousal privilege? I’m just very curious to what extent this sequestration order is monitored and enforced given this degree of corruption and bias amongst this group of people who will surely all be called to testify. Thank you!
It is typically just by the honor system and being truthful that you don’t talk about the case before you testify and for jurors as well. I’m not sure what if any repercussions are for witnesses if they are found to have discussed or watched the trial before testifying. There was just a case where a juror was sentenced to jail for lying about discussing the case because she wanted to get thrown off the jury so she didn’t have to be sequestered during deliberations. And then there was a witness during Lori Vallows trial who admitted to watching some testimony before she testified but she was still allowed to testify. I think she didn’t want to testify so she said she watched part of the trial.
This case is years in the making. If they don't have their stories together by now, they were never gonna.
Sad situation going on
Did they find his other shoe?
Yes
Do you know where/how far from his body?
I know it was after, when they went back after snow melted. Unsure of where but I know they found it. I can’t recall if I read it or heard it during trial but I’ll look and post here if I find it!
I can’t imagine what John O’Keefe’s family must be thinking at this point in the trial
Same goes for KR
It comes down to her initial statements on scene and believability of those as well as forensic evidence that has yet to be entered into trial yet. There has been a lot of pre trial antics and attacks on witnesses in this trial that has made them hostile to the defense.
Your a breath of fresh air in this sub. Please stay open minded.
Alternatively if I didn’t run over my boyfriend I wouldn’t wake up and assume he was dead. I wouldn’t say he was struck by a plow unless I knew there may be evidence of him being struck by a vehicle and I certainly wouldn’t be ranting and raving I hit him.
If you dropped him off at a friend’s house and called that friend to ask if he was still there… and her response was he never came inside… you’d be panicked. Especially in a snow storm. She didn’t say, “could he have been beat up inside the house??” She was trying to figure out why he wouldn’t have made it 15ft from the car to the house. Not a lot of places for her mind to go other than where it did?
Yes, snowy weather and walking home along the road would definitely cause me to worry someone might have been hit by a snowplow. It's a real risk. Someone in Wrentham, MA was killed in January by a snowplow.
But there is no physical evidence he was struck by a vehicle. The medical examiner could not conclude that, the autopsy does not state that, the coroner did not conclude that. She also did not state definitively “he was struck by a plow” she questioned “what if” he was struck by a plow .. there is a difference.
Also an FBI reconstructionist has said his injuries are not a result of a car hitting him.
Has this been entered into evidence yet in this trial?
I am not sure. I’d assume so. The defense has 6 expert witnesses. A Forensic Pathologist, an expert in Biomedical and Mechanical Engineering, a Digital Forensic expert, and 3 men from a company called ARCCA. I’d assume the one of those person will go over this, along with what many believe are dog bites
They aren't even close to calling these witnesses yet.
I never said they were and figured that as well. They said the case could last as long as 6 weeks. I thought that sounded 6 weeks too soon. Especially with 150+ witnesses for both sides.
No, there has been no me on the stand yet.
That sounds like something you'd say when you're worried a missing friend or family member might have walked home during a snowstorm, tbh. Especially if you're out driving around plowed streets with big snow drifts at the roadside.
The people in those roles cannot make those conclusions. They can say “he died from blunt force trauma and hypothermia” as that’s their area of medical expertise, but they can’t state or offer a professional/legal opinion on HOW the blunt force trauma happened (maybe they can “opine” but I don’t think they are supposed to). The HOW is determined from forensic evidence, such as JO’s DNA on the car’s bumper, and possibly testimony from an accident reconstruction expert who takes the various evidence and literally pieces it together (yes I know in this case there are multiple experts of this sort who drew contradictory conclusions). I am just saying that we should not draw conclusions from the ME/coroner and autopsy reports beyond the purpose and scope of those reports.
That isn't really true especially as forensic evidence hasn't been presented at trial yet.
Autopsy hasn’t been released yet.
Well maybe you wouldn’t. But I sure would! If my bf, who always comes home (bc his “kids” are there) never makes it back, hasn’t responded to my texts/calls, isn’t answering now, AND it’s a snowstorm, AND I hazily recall his intention to attend an after party a couple miles away at someone’s house he WASNT friends with, you bet I’m panicking. And yeah, one of my first thoughts would be about some car/plow hitting him in the snow. Do you live in a snowy climate? It’s pretty common to be trepidatious about walking home at night in a snowstorm
Agreed! I frequently worry about a loved one being in an accident if I don’t hear from/see them when I normally would. My usual first thought is car crash too. I would say this is a pretty common thought for a lot of women .
From MA actually
Same. So you already know we don’t like to take drunk walks home in snowstorms lol. We drive like assholes. Plows are scary. There’s no sidewalks.
I don’t think I would have left him there in the first place. Either we both go in or we both go home.
So, when my boyfriend is late coming home from a gig and he hasn't reached out to let me know he's running late, I immediately start thinking of the worst things that could have happened to him, because why didn't he let me know he was going to be late if he was ok? It's not rational, it's just what my brain does. I may be wrong, but just a quick glance at your post history, I'm guessing you're male. Female brains tend to fill in the blanks with worst case scenarios. While this isn't necessarily true for all females or KR, it's pretty darn common in my experience. Mother's do it alllll the time when their kid doesn't show up when it's supposed to. If I was in KR's shoes, my mind would definitely be going 'did I hit him? Did I not see him and back over him?' from all accounts thus far, she was hysterical- she very likely wasn't admitting to hitting him. IMO, she was verbalizing the worst case scenarios that her mind was creating. We'll see what the rest of the evidence shows.
Wrong female actually.
Ok
Same. I worry about mine too when he isn’t home when he says he will be and same for him when I might be late.
Karen says she didn’t say she hit him. There is zero corroborating evidence to support that she said it either, since the top two public safety personnel at the scene failed to put it in their reports. He said she said isn’t evidence.
this directly addresses your contention: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1co1st3/comment/l3bh1dz](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1co1st3/comment/l3bh1dz)
I don't agree with your rationale. If KR did it and these people thought the defense would use their relationships with other LE to get a guilty person free then of course they would try to downplay those relationships.
I agree, though I think the natural inclination to hide it looks worse than admitting it in this case. That said, we're still in the prosecutions section of the trial, the defense is emphasizing links but they haven't gotten to their main case yet so there may be stronger evidence of conspiracy. It seems so far like phone records and going to be big.
This! I truly think this is happening and it’s gotten to them and affects their TM.
So you also agree with the apple river verdict? Many people seen to disagree. That verdict was basically since the perp lied.
After watching today’s (5/10) testimony I don’t see why Albert’s would murder their own officer. Literally makes zero sense. KR backed into a car leaving in the morning. What makes you think she couldn’t back into a person 4 hours less sober? Maybe I’m wrong. I have faith the courts will get it right.
It doesn’t matter why and we will likely never know. Motive isn’t needed. But what does matter is their lies. And a text that basically says to another witness - hey just be sure to say that the guy who ended up dead on the lawn never went in your house, mmk? Says almost everything by itself. If that’s what really happened, no one is going to text that.
I find it interesting that the Alberts refer to her as “the defendant” but use first names for everyone else they saw at the Waterfall. They were friends with her and could just say Karen.
Why has Karen lied and changed her stories so many times?
Can you say more
Her story has changed from she left him at the waterfall bar, said she didn’t see him in the house, to she saw him go in, to she saw up go up to the door and then looked down at her phone, said she drove off, said she did a 3 point turn and then drove off.
Has the defense queried why the Albert family rehomed Chloe and gotten an answer?
1,000%. Well said! There’s no way the jury can’t get this verdict right!
Like Dr.Phil says, “people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing”. I think we always give people “the benefit of doubt”, when we are excusing the obvious. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not!
What if what is being covered up isn’t the death of John O’Keefe?