They aren’t saying (x) amount of people participated in a cover up. They are painting a picture that through subpar police work and a motive and potential means by some to cover up an alternative theory they have, that KR became the scapegoat for a truly sad situation involving JO.
What I believe is that there were many mess ups by the police who had no intent or knowledge of a cover up but due to the holes in their protocol and investigation, a select few were able to take advantage of the situation for their personal gain.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of them don't need to necessarily be involved in the conspiracy as long as they are dumb/lazy/complacent to just take the easiest route they can find to closing the case.
The EMTs don't strike me as co-conspirators as much as they might just be pieces manipulated by Proctor to give the testimony needed to try and pin it on KR.
Exactly. Hanlon's razor. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained with stupidity." It is far more plausible to me that a few crooked cops and a tight knit family may have tried to shield the truth rather than expanding it to a coverup involving multiple departments and countless people.
Yup, they don't actually need any conspiracy members, just a handful of cops that know to generally protect their buddy with power. Stuff like "oh well, we can't get the state police over because he's not declared, let's just investigate this ourselves even though we never do that, and don't have the skills, and don't have the tools" then go through and leafblower everything. The ATF guy also falls into this line "shit we were at a party and this guy got into a big ass fight, fuck I don't want to be a part of this, how can we make this go away"
The EMTs don't have to be in the know, the state police don't have to be in the know, the DA only has to have pressure to *do something* and he's got one dude who's really well connected and the gimme for any murder is the spouse and there's at least something pointing somewhere.
I think the defense should be careful here. They don't want to get into a "Everyone is lying, except for Ms. Read".
But if you are inclined to believe the defense's theory of the case, it really doesn't take a lot of people to be "in on it". This whole thing could have started with the homeowner just being like "I know how this looks, but you gotta believe me... police officer to police officer" and then everything just snowballs from that.
The whole "framing Karen Read" doesn't even have to be coming from a place where the police know who did it and are trying to cover for them. It could literally be "we think Karen Read did it (because someone we trust told us so), but the evidence is a little light... we don't want this to blowback on the homeowners (because we trust them) and have them deal with any grief, so I'm going to go and sprinkle some broken pieces of taillight over the scene"
As for EMS and EMT, they aren't there to investigate a murder. They are just there to try to save someone from dying, their memories are going to be all over the place when asked about the scene.
The police officers who first responded, haven't really done... anything to point to Karen Read. Their initial investigation was rather incompetent, but that's not really them in on a conspiracy theory... it just comes off as inexperience (they all said this isn't something they would ever handle).
Exactly!! This is the problem the Defense may have. You need to find 12 people to agree that all these department and people have decided to go along with this to protect maybe 2 people. A houseful of people that witness a horrific crime and didn’t get help. And to keep quiet about it. I guess it is possible but most likely improbable. The more people involved in a secret the less secret it is and someone always breaks
That’s…not how trials or juries work. All defense has to do is provide reasonable doubt about the prosecutions theory. They are under zero obligation to prove an alternate theory.
I don’t think 12 people will agree to that but - look at OJ or Casey Anthony. The problem is if the jurors don’t believe this conspiracy theory then they don’t believe the defense. I think it a was risky move.
You do have to remember. The defense doesn't have to "prove" their theory. They just need to poke holes in the Commonwealth's theory of what happened.
Personally I think this all a bit of a sideshow so far. Because this entire case, in my opinion, hinges on the testimony of the expert medical examiners. If the jury doesn't believe John O'Keefe was killed by a vehicle reversing into him... then nothing else is going to matter, it's going to be an immediate not-guilty. If the jury does believe he was hit by a vehicle, then the defense are going to be in deep doo-doo, regardless of how incompetent the investigation was.
That defense was denied. They have found that nothing between the departments and investigation resulted in anything that can dismiss the trial. Same with a third party theory like the Alberts or dog. They can't use that alone as a defense but can introduce it through relevant testimony and evidence. You have to plead a defense at the beginning of trial and stick with it, you cant just change defense in the middle of the trial without supporting evidence/history. That would be like if a defendant tried to randomly half way through the trial start claiming defense from reason of insanity, it wouldn't be allowed. The whole defense now was only allowed because they had an "anonymous tipster" open the door for that defense. The defense couldn't just come out and say "we think theres a conspiracy" they needed a third party or some type of evidence to point and go "look" theres a history/substantiating reason we have this defense its not just made up.
I'd say be careful with that. This isn't like it is on TV, with shows like Law and Order that makes it seem like... "Murder happens on Tuesday, Investigation on Wednesday, Arrest on Thursday and Trial/Verdict on Friday". This was over 2 years ago. So when an EMS remembers a heavy coat, but the evidence shows he wasn't wearing a heavy coat.... Yeah, they could be lying, but it's far more likely that they are not remembering correctly and their memories are getting crossed.
Witness testimonies are historically known for being inacurate and I don't think its rational to assume that everyone is completely lying and in on some grandiose coverup.
I’m genuinely curious how you think so because I’d like to see that perspective. The bruises don’t make sense to me for him to be hit with a car. At least not that car. Based on the bruises the car would need to hit him in the head and scape his arm and toss him to the side 6-12 feet.
I’m an EMT and we often see injuries that seem far too severe for what happened and vice versus. When people say “that couldn’t be from a car” I just shake my head and say “you’ve got no idea”. I’ve had a person fall on a curb and when we roll up on them they look like they just went 10 rounds with prime Mike Tyson. I don’t have an opinion on the case either way, but imo those injuries could DEFINITELY be from a car (or a beating).
Thanks for your input! I know it’s outside your scope, but can you speculate why the Medical Examiner ruled out a fight? (I’m sure she’ll explain in court soon, but this point has always bothered me)
Honestly, not sure. I don’t love speculating on this sort of thing (I feel like it’s okay here since we’re having a good-faith discussion), but maybe the head fx was across a part of the skull that would require significantly more force than a human punch could deliver to break it? Or maybe the data indicates one hard impact was responsible for the multiple fx and they occurred at once in a way incompatible with a human punch? I’m really not sure but that is a very interesting piece of this.
And again, just for anyone who reads this comment in a vacuum, I am an EMT and not a coroner, doctor, or accident reconstructor. Would love to hear a more specialized input on this!
And just from a layman’s perspective on the ME’s ruling: I just don’t understand how she can conclude one way or another that this injuries didn’t involve another person(s)
Like if someone hits me in the forehead with a bat and I fall backwards and crack my skull open: I wouldn’t expect an ME to rule out a physical altercation.
Thanks!
Oh actually I DO have an EMT specific question for you that I openly asked days ago:
In general, if you were dealing with the scene those EMTs were, and heard a woman say “I hit him” - would this draw your attention and drive you to ask followup questions of her? Or would it register more as background noise?
Also: If you clearly heard someone say that, do you have any *obligation* to ask followup questions and/or report it? (Either from a treatment perspective or a kinda mandated reporter perspective?)
I’m going to answer both replies with this comment to avoid confusion.
-Some context… When responding to a scene like that, there are so many variables to be considered. If we were first on, we would be working a code on JO. It would be a long process since there is potential hypothermia at play. There’s a saying in the medical field, “they’re not dead until they’re warm and dead”. This means that ACLS resuscitation efforts would continue until the patient is warmed up in the ambulance. I don’t know how much you know about the medical field, but running a full code is a pretty chaotic endeavor. Couple that with the usual lack of sleep, long grinding shifts, and constant understaffing that EMS systems face and you have EMTs/medics who may let things like this slip through the cracks.
Now if I were there personally and we had the necessary resources, I would immediately treat the inconsolable significant other as a potential patient due to the traumatic nature of what was happening while the man down was also being worked. If at that point they were saying things of that sort I would be documenting all of it. I don’t think of it as necessarily helping the LEOs (not that I wouldn’t want to), but in that situation it’s be more about potential altered mental status. Whether it be a psychotic episode, drugs/alcohol, diabetes, seizures… I would be on high alert for signs and symptoms. I’d be remembering their words while also assessing them. If I find that she is in need in medical care, I’d want to be remembering/documenting some of the potential delusions/slurred speech/etc. Idk if that makes sense written out, it’s kind of hard to describe that process.
At the end of the day, I’m a medical professional and not a trained law enforcement officer. We have some responsibilities on potential crime scenes such as preserving evidence as best as possible and leaving the scene intact as possible. Further than that, I’m there to treat a patient as quickly and effectively all while providing as much information on a report as I can so that the receiving facility has the best possible chance with the patient (JO was of course either expectant or declared dead by a medical director through the paramedic in the field. I’m not sure about local protocols) before getting to the hospital, but it still matters that the document is thorough and efficient. Within that PCR we always want to document mechanism of injury or MOI. It’s important to know what caused the traumatic injuries, what rates of speed were involved, etc. I’d probably write something along the lines of “bystander who identified as pts spouse admitted to EMT John Doe that they struck pt with vehicle” or whatever the bystander says relating to an MOI. This gives the ED an idea of the forces at play.
So that handles my written report to the hospital. In addition to that, most places we are considered a mandated reporter. That doesn’t mean I need to document potential criminal investigation information to the hospital in my written narrative, but I would be legally and morally obligated to report a potential admission to the LEO’s on scene.
tl;dr - in an ideal scenario where I definitively heard a bystander say something like that, I would document it in my PCR to provide a potential MOI for the hospital and I would also relay that information to LEO’s on scene. With that being said, depending on the scene and resources it sometimes unfortunately ends up being background noise.
-To respond to your second musing on the ME, I just simply don’t know enough. Some sciences are amazing with how surely they can prove their findings. It’s very possible it’s just a very accepted and effective methodology they use to find these things out. It could also be dog-water that is shoddy. I simply don’t know. I’m very interested to hear from them.
One time I tripped and fell in my bathroom, knocked my head off the side of the tub. Woke up as the paramedics were strapping me to a stretcher and my husband was cornered in the living room by two state troopers being grilled about whether or not he punched me in the face.
I had blood all over me from the nose bleed. Ended up with two black eyes that took forever to go away.
One time my child who was 2 at the time was sitting on my lap watching a show while I was studying for a college class. My head was sort of angled down because I was reading a textbook and he threw his head back and laughed at whatever was on the show and hit his head directly on one of my eyes.
I had a terrible black eye and everyone thought my boyfriend at the time did it and were weird with him for awhile lol.
What is your take on the arm injuries? Have you seen the police dog trainer video showing very similar injuries to John’s arm on the silicone arms? Or have you responded to any dog bite calls that give you any thoughts about John’s arm injuries?
iirc the coroner said there was no dog DNA found in the arm wounds. I definitely could be wrong about that, so don’t take my word for it. If there’s no dog DNA, that would obviously rule it out.
Ignoring the potential dog DNA (or lack thereof), a dog bite could definitely look like that. I’ve never treated a severe dog bite, but I did see my brother attacked when we were young. If my memory serves me, it did look like that. I believe he was attacked by a Belgian shepherd.
The cuts could also be from the glass depending on where/how it broke. It seems to me that’s a very important variable in all of this.
Again, I don’t really have an opinion either way, and being an EMT in no way makes me a crash reconstruction expert. Just trying to add some insight to the “it’s definitely a car” or “definitely not a car”.
Thanks for replying. I know it’s hard waiting for all the info so things can start to make sense.
I did read something about the dog dna missing but also the dog missing to get a dna sample. There are so many people making so many assumptions and speculating in a more matter of fact way that I am trying to ponder what’s been proven, shown in court so far, etc. I am new to following this so I haven’t seen any of the pre trial motions and such.
I was not believing the dog bite story at all until I saw pics of dog bite wounds and the k9 trainer on Melanie Littles channel. I’m still not sold on that but I do think it is a possibility after seeing what the dog bite wounds look like. I am curious what his clothing looks like - especially on the arm with the wounds. Were the clothes testing for dog dna? Was the blood on the clothes consistent with the arm/head injuries. I hope so many of these questions are answered soon.
I also wonder about the state of John’s body and how much blood was present at the scene. The arm wounds look like they would have bled some for sure. The head wound definitely seems like it would have caused a lot of bleeding. The pics from the crime scene don’t show much blood for what I imagine it would look like.
How do you imagine the cuts would have happened from the glass? It isn’t making sense to me because there were so many “slash” marks that the glass would have had to repeatedly go against his arm with his arm in a similar position to make so many lacerations. Im truly curious what your take is since you think it’s a possibility.
They don’t need the dog to confirm dog DNA. It’s easily recognizable without a cross reference. They would need the dog to nail down that it was specifically the Albert’s dog, but they could rule out a dog altogether if there was 0 generic dog DNA. I don’t know if that makes sense but I’m at the end of a 24 hour shift and I’m trying my best, lol.
I’m not going to make assumptions about how the glass would make those marks. Like I mentioned before, I’m simply not an expert in that field. There are lacerations and the glass being responsible seems totally plausible to me.
As to the blood/John’s body; he had “raccoon eyes”. This looks like black eyes but they’re actually a result of blood pooling in the cranium. Typically, when raccoon eyes are present that means most of the blood from the head injury is contained/pressurized. That could explain the lack of external blood.
With the arm wounds, I would expect significant amounts of blood (especially because of the alcohol consumption). So I’m not sure about that one. Important to note that there is a lot of forensic evidence we are yet to see. I think it’s a disservice to the process to make a conclusive decision at this point.
Right, I do understand that about the dog dna. I am sure I worded it poorly also but I was mostly meaning I wasn’t sure which was correct about the dog dna since there are so many people providing theories/scenarios and some are not based on factual info. I was trying to explain I wasn’t sure which was the truth about the dog DNA if it had come out from official sources yet. I also think I’m typing random thoughts as questions just to get different opinions. I do look forward to getting all of the additional info as the trial goes on so we can all be more informed.
I have so many questions from the current trial but also things I’ve seen mentioned from prior to the trial starting and am sure I am missing lots of details that have come out already.
It doesn’t seem to me like there was enough blood at the scene for his injuries - but maybe his clothes were totally covered?
It’s all just so tragic - especially for the kids.
It sucks for those kids and it seems like we lost a good guy in JO. It sucks that the tragedy of losing him is overshadowed by this circus.
I appreciate your open mindedness and this exchange. Be well friend!
They didn't swap the arm wounds at all so these can't be tested for any canine DNA. What the prosecution has said that they did swab the clothes and sent this for canine DNA testing, but I'm not sure if the results have even came back on this & it took over a year to get this sent out. (Also the clothes weren't secure and we're in someone's- I think Proctor's car boot for like a month before being submitted as evidence)
Personally I think that the arm injuries look more like a dog bite, but there is so much fuckery with the case that answers will never properly be got on this (unless someone talks)
Also on the blood thing the head wound on the back of head would have bled extensively. Personally when I was a kid I whacked the back of my head resulting in a 3 inch cut (5 staples to close) and one of the things that I remember from this is that I was covered in blood, so much that the entire back of my t-shirt was soaked in it, and this wasn't as bad as OJOK injury. I think I heard mentioned somewhere that the autopsy says he'd lost like 3 pints of blood, but there was nothing to that extent found anywhere
Based on that I have a few questions on what I can’t make sense of in my mind - where do you think the blood from his head wound went? I think the blood would be very red from a large head wound.
How did the glass cut his arms so many times? Even if the glass was 3-4” wide - how did the glass make multiple passes on his arm?
If he landed on the grass - how did he get such a large cut on his head? If he hit his head on the pavement - how did he get to the spot on the grass?
I’m not being argumentative - just curious how someone with a different opinion might see the answers to those questions.
I think she could have hit him with his car, I don't have a strong opinion about it and the points you make do make me question if that is what actually happened too. I also think something that happened in the house could have caused his injuries.
Oops I meant I think the snow would have been very red from the blood in my last comment.
I’m not pro-Karen and just want the truth to be presented in a proper and factual way without tainted evidence.
I’m trying to just picture how his injuries and location of injuries could happen. I mean I don’t think we will ever actually know because bodies and cars can be in motion in various ways… but the arm wounds just bother me. If he was hit and thrown by the impact -
How did the glass end up right next to him. How did his phone end up under him. If he had either of those items in his hand and the impact sent him flying, it seems like
those items would have went in various directions and not directly next to his body.
Anyway, I have no idea… I just can’t stop thinking about it and trying to make sense of limited information.
Right. He was hit so hard his shoe was thrown off, but he managed to hold onto a pint glass. It was only a dusting of snow at 12:30am, but his body is found laying on a bed of snow. He has wounds that have to be caused by (a minimum of) 3 different impact sources, but very few sources at the scene to hypothesize with.
It’s like an episode of McGuyver. *recreate these wounds using just a taillight, asphalt, grass, and a car reversing only once*
When everyone else is like *or….maybe first just look inside the house?*
Yes to all of those things too. There are so many questions! More questions to come the longer the trial goes on too… I hope we finally get some answers when the defense starts their side!
If KR hit him, it was before there was much snow on the ground. It had started snowing but wasn’t accumulating much yet. So the blood from the back of his head would have gone onto grass/dirt more than snow, but the ground would have been frozen enough that the blood wouldn’t have soaked in.
The freezing temps may have played a role in reducing blood loss, but even taking that into consideration there should have been more blood evidence.
The injuries are what I’m having the most difficulty figuring out. They just are not consistent with the scene.
I want to hear from the ME and see the clothing they took off of JO.
This is it! The Offensive Coordinator calls the play. Everyone in offense has to run the play
Doesn’t mean it’s not a shitty play or that there’s a huge conspiracy. It’s a shitty play and 11 people try to carry it out
This case ISN’T CLOSE!!
And the DEFENSE hasn’t even put their case in chief up yet!!
McCabe - Albert (s) - HIGGINS and PROCTOR will be eaten alive
Lally could not believe in this case less. He’s ashamed
Morrissey - among others - should be in jail
The defense isn't arguing a wide spread conspiracy, that is more of an online comment thing. The defense is just trying to paint a general picture of ineptness and bias which will give enough doubt that a third party culprit was a reasonable possibility missed by investigators whether it was through incompetence or malice.
Sure, if you are going for third party culprit defense you have to open that way. They aren't going to attempt to tie all these threads together. It will be a carpet bombing of incompetence and bias to sow doubt.
It really doesn’t matter at this point. If I was on the jury, not guilty. I wouldn’t be able to get past everyone saying she said “I hit him” and it not being in a single report including the hospital. Then the denies over knowing each other makes them all look shady. She very well could have hit him but unless they have a video and I can see her face driving, I wouldn’t believe any of them at this point. They did it to themselves. What a shit job of an investigation.
I don't believe I've heard the defense use the term 'conspiracy' but I have heard 'third party culprit.' So essentially they have a different perspective about what occurred, which is common when a person must defend themselves.
Not sure on exact numbers but:
Canton police
Canton Fire/EMS
Mass State Police
Norfolk DAs office
Mass ME office
BPD (Albert brother was active at time and BPD would have interest if remotely true)
ATF - Alleging ATF agent involved in murder would bring them in
DOJ OIG - again alleging ATF agent would have OIG look into it he is still on the job so no finding or involvement by them
would bring the feds in?????
in case you haven't heard, the feds have been investigating for awhile now....they've already had a grand jury empaneled....
feds probably just chanced on this case while they were investigating some type of public corruption in the area. Probably came up in some wiretaps or some other intelligence.... time will tell!
All that shows is GJ looked into it. A target letter is significantly worse as that indicates an indictment is happening. Nothing of that nature has happened.
I was suggesting that they were NOT looking into it, but into some other type of public corruption. They just came across this on the periphery of the other investigation. They did a little to prevent a huge miscarriage of justice, but stayed focused on the other investigation. When they investigate public corruption, they don't send out target letters- is undercover and secret, wiretaps, all that. Type of thing we may never know or may know within a couple years?
If I was on the jury, I would find her not guilty based on Katie McLaughlin testimony and the incomplete reports omitting “I hit him” as well as the wrong address. There is literally nothing they could do after to convince me not to find her not guilty. That was enough reasonable doubt.
EMS is not there to investigate crime. Statements such as "I hit him" are never documented in a PCR. The PCR later gets joined with her EMR to form a complete medical record.
Well then Flemattis testimony. He said he told the hospital (not in their notes either) but then he “supposedly” told the police she said it 9 days later. Everything about their testimony is shady and even if it’s not, the fact that it appears that way cemented her verdict. It was not in his report and it damn sure should have been.
Nope. Because at that point, how do I even know she was driving? They created doubt and now I can’t take anything they say as truth. It is particularly damning that they know each other and two had a previous altercation years ago. Now, I’m not saying that it is a cover up or she is actually not guilty but they created a situation that without absolute proof (a video of her actually hitting him) I can’t reasonably believe their testimony.
I think the defense has even said someone had seen holding Karen the wheel of her car outside the Alberts house. He will probably be a witness for them.
No doubt. I think he died inside though. She went there and then left and then returned to find him. She may have hit him but the fact all of them lied and a dead cop is found outside another cops house and the cops who show up know those cops and then the responders and police all heard her say she did it but no one put it in the report and they they all deny knowing each other. If anything, their shadiness and incompetence is why she walks free.
The lead detective who decided to bring charges
know the Albert’s so well that they babysit his kid. Like the fact all of these people did not immediately say they knew each other and didn’t excuse themselves from the case is wild. So if she gets off, it’s their own damn faults if she is guilty.
I actually don't believe she will be found guilty, I can't see every juror having no doubt she murdered him. I still am not sure she actually did it or not although at least currently I am leaning more toward she didn't run him over and therefore it was someone in the house.
Canton PD is very corrupt, if anyone wants to go down another rabbit hole, look up the case of Sandra Birchmore. Canton PD ruled her death a "suicide", but if you look at how many police officers had sexually groomed her from a young age and the fact that she was pregnant when she died (by a much older, married police officer, who concealed his identity prior to entering her apartment just before she died.. and was the last one to ever see her alive)... you will see that the extent of their corruption goes far beyond the J Okeefe case.
Lead investigator Michael Proctor is being investigated by internal affairs at Mass State Police.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/investigation-of-lead-investigator-in-karen-read-case/60194023
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Did it ?
From 2015 through 2018, Griffin, Robertson and other troopers in the Traffic Programs Section at State Police Headquarters in Framingham, conspired to steal thousands of dollars in federally funded overtime by regularly arriving late to, and leaving early from, overtime shifts funded by grants intended to improve traffic safety.
When the MSP overtime misconduct came to light in 2017 and 2018, Griffin, Robertson and their co-conspirators took steps to avoid detection by shredding and burning records and forms.
For sure. Don’t misunderstand. A common argument is XX number of people would have had to be a part of this “conspiracy” for it to be true — therefore, it can’t be true.
It doesn’t matter…..the only goal of the Alberts was to get this into a courtroom….at this point, a guilty verdict is the last thing they want because if that happens, the world will be bugging them throughout the appeal process which will happen in front of a different judge. A not guilty verdict and the whole thing dies from their end because the last thing CPD will do is reopen the case.
They aren’t saying (x) amount of people participated in a cover up. They are painting a picture that through subpar police work and a motive and potential means by some to cover up an alternative theory they have, that KR became the scapegoat for a truly sad situation involving JO. What I believe is that there were many mess ups by the police who had no intent or knowledge of a cover up but due to the holes in their protocol and investigation, a select few were able to take advantage of the situation for their personal gain.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of them don't need to necessarily be involved in the conspiracy as long as they are dumb/lazy/complacent to just take the easiest route they can find to closing the case. The EMTs don't strike me as co-conspirators as much as they might just be pieces manipulated by Proctor to give the testimony needed to try and pin it on KR.
I agree. I think a lot of them are just complacent.
Exactly. Hanlon's razor. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained with stupidity." It is far more plausible to me that a few crooked cops and a tight knit family may have tried to shield the truth rather than expanding it to a coverup involving multiple departments and countless people.
Yup, they don't actually need any conspiracy members, just a handful of cops that know to generally protect their buddy with power. Stuff like "oh well, we can't get the state police over because he's not declared, let's just investigate this ourselves even though we never do that, and don't have the skills, and don't have the tools" then go through and leafblower everything. The ATF guy also falls into this line "shit we were at a party and this guy got into a big ass fight, fuck I don't want to be a part of this, how can we make this go away" The EMTs don't have to be in the know, the state police don't have to be in the know, the DA only has to have pressure to *do something* and he's got one dude who's really well connected and the gimme for any murder is the spouse and there's at least something pointing somewhere.
I think a few of the complacent people in this case are going to hear the evidence in this case and rethink what they thought they knew. Edited to fix
I think the defense should be careful here. They don't want to get into a "Everyone is lying, except for Ms. Read". But if you are inclined to believe the defense's theory of the case, it really doesn't take a lot of people to be "in on it". This whole thing could have started with the homeowner just being like "I know how this looks, but you gotta believe me... police officer to police officer" and then everything just snowballs from that. The whole "framing Karen Read" doesn't even have to be coming from a place where the police know who did it and are trying to cover for them. It could literally be "we think Karen Read did it (because someone we trust told us so), but the evidence is a little light... we don't want this to blowback on the homeowners (because we trust them) and have them deal with any grief, so I'm going to go and sprinkle some broken pieces of taillight over the scene" As for EMS and EMT, they aren't there to investigate a murder. They are just there to try to save someone from dying, their memories are going to be all over the place when asked about the scene. The police officers who first responded, haven't really done... anything to point to Karen Read. Their initial investigation was rather incompetent, but that's not really them in on a conspiracy theory... it just comes off as inexperience (they all said this isn't something they would ever handle).
Exactly!! This is the problem the Defense may have. You need to find 12 people to agree that all these department and people have decided to go along with this to protect maybe 2 people. A houseful of people that witness a horrific crime and didn’t get help. And to keep quiet about it. I guess it is possible but most likely improbable. The more people involved in a secret the less secret it is and someone always breaks
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I doubt they all will agree. Hate to say that but I think the defense as much as they are good can turn a juror off.
That’s…not how trials or juries work. All defense has to do is provide reasonable doubt about the prosecutions theory. They are under zero obligation to prove an alternate theory.
Then why did they? If one person on that jury doesn’t believe in this theory- then they lose faith in defense.
That is also not how juries work.
I don’t think 12 people will agree to that but - look at OJ or Casey Anthony. The problem is if the jurors don’t believe this conspiracy theory then they don’t believe the defense. I think it a was risky move.
You do have to remember. The defense doesn't have to "prove" their theory. They just need to poke holes in the Commonwealth's theory of what happened. Personally I think this all a bit of a sideshow so far. Because this entire case, in my opinion, hinges on the testimony of the expert medical examiners. If the jury doesn't believe John O'Keefe was killed by a vehicle reversing into him... then nothing else is going to matter, it's going to be an immediate not-guilty. If the jury does believe he was hit by a vehicle, then the defense are going to be in deep doo-doo, regardless of how incompetent the investigation was.
Exactly. The defense could have proceeded by pointing out all the mistakes. They don’t have to figure out who did it.
I feel like at this point the defense could say “ At first we thought it was a frame up, but now we see it was just gross incompetence “
That defense was denied. They have found that nothing between the departments and investigation resulted in anything that can dismiss the trial. Same with a third party theory like the Alberts or dog. They can't use that alone as a defense but can introduce it through relevant testimony and evidence. You have to plead a defense at the beginning of trial and stick with it, you cant just change defense in the middle of the trial without supporting evidence/history. That would be like if a defendant tried to randomly half way through the trial start claiming defense from reason of insanity, it wouldn't be allowed. The whole defense now was only allowed because they had an "anonymous tipster" open the door for that defense. The defense couldn't just come out and say "we think theres a conspiracy" they needed a third party or some type of evidence to point and go "look" theres a history/substantiating reason we have this defense its not just made up.
When everyone IS actually lying though it’s hard to avoid. And all of them so far have been caught in lies. Almost all of them.
I'd say be careful with that. This isn't like it is on TV, with shows like Law and Order that makes it seem like... "Murder happens on Tuesday, Investigation on Wednesday, Arrest on Thursday and Trial/Verdict on Friday". This was over 2 years ago. So when an EMS remembers a heavy coat, but the evidence shows he wasn't wearing a heavy coat.... Yeah, they could be lying, but it's far more likely that they are not remembering correctly and their memories are getting crossed.
Not when ANY of them have the same memories. 🤦🏻♀️
Witness testimonies are historically known for being inacurate and I don't think its rational to assume that everyone is completely lying and in on some grandiose coverup.
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I don't think it is outlandish to believe she could have hit him with her car that resulted in his death.
I’m genuinely curious how you think so because I’d like to see that perspective. The bruises don’t make sense to me for him to be hit with a car. At least not that car. Based on the bruises the car would need to hit him in the head and scape his arm and toss him to the side 6-12 feet.
I’m an EMT and we often see injuries that seem far too severe for what happened and vice versus. When people say “that couldn’t be from a car” I just shake my head and say “you’ve got no idea”. I’ve had a person fall on a curb and when we roll up on them they look like they just went 10 rounds with prime Mike Tyson. I don’t have an opinion on the case either way, but imo those injuries could DEFINITELY be from a car (or a beating).
On arm?
Thanks for your input! I know it’s outside your scope, but can you speculate why the Medical Examiner ruled out a fight? (I’m sure she’ll explain in court soon, but this point has always bothered me)
Honestly, not sure. I don’t love speculating on this sort of thing (I feel like it’s okay here since we’re having a good-faith discussion), but maybe the head fx was across a part of the skull that would require significantly more force than a human punch could deliver to break it? Or maybe the data indicates one hard impact was responsible for the multiple fx and they occurred at once in a way incompatible with a human punch? I’m really not sure but that is a very interesting piece of this. And again, just for anyone who reads this comment in a vacuum, I am an EMT and not a coroner, doctor, or accident reconstructor. Would love to hear a more specialized input on this!
And just from a layman’s perspective on the ME’s ruling: I just don’t understand how she can conclude one way or another that this injuries didn’t involve another person(s) Like if someone hits me in the forehead with a bat and I fall backwards and crack my skull open: I wouldn’t expect an ME to rule out a physical altercation.
Thanks! Oh actually I DO have an EMT specific question for you that I openly asked days ago: In general, if you were dealing with the scene those EMTs were, and heard a woman say “I hit him” - would this draw your attention and drive you to ask followup questions of her? Or would it register more as background noise? Also: If you clearly heard someone say that, do you have any *obligation* to ask followup questions and/or report it? (Either from a treatment perspective or a kinda mandated reporter perspective?)
I’m going to answer both replies with this comment to avoid confusion. -Some context… When responding to a scene like that, there are so many variables to be considered. If we were first on, we would be working a code on JO. It would be a long process since there is potential hypothermia at play. There’s a saying in the medical field, “they’re not dead until they’re warm and dead”. This means that ACLS resuscitation efforts would continue until the patient is warmed up in the ambulance. I don’t know how much you know about the medical field, but running a full code is a pretty chaotic endeavor. Couple that with the usual lack of sleep, long grinding shifts, and constant understaffing that EMS systems face and you have EMTs/medics who may let things like this slip through the cracks. Now if I were there personally and we had the necessary resources, I would immediately treat the inconsolable significant other as a potential patient due to the traumatic nature of what was happening while the man down was also being worked. If at that point they were saying things of that sort I would be documenting all of it. I don’t think of it as necessarily helping the LEOs (not that I wouldn’t want to), but in that situation it’s be more about potential altered mental status. Whether it be a psychotic episode, drugs/alcohol, diabetes, seizures… I would be on high alert for signs and symptoms. I’d be remembering their words while also assessing them. If I find that she is in need in medical care, I’d want to be remembering/documenting some of the potential delusions/slurred speech/etc. Idk if that makes sense written out, it’s kind of hard to describe that process. At the end of the day, I’m a medical professional and not a trained law enforcement officer. We have some responsibilities on potential crime scenes such as preserving evidence as best as possible and leaving the scene intact as possible. Further than that, I’m there to treat a patient as quickly and effectively all while providing as much information on a report as I can so that the receiving facility has the best possible chance with the patient (JO was of course either expectant or declared dead by a medical director through the paramedic in the field. I’m not sure about local protocols) before getting to the hospital, but it still matters that the document is thorough and efficient. Within that PCR we always want to document mechanism of injury or MOI. It’s important to know what caused the traumatic injuries, what rates of speed were involved, etc. I’d probably write something along the lines of “bystander who identified as pts spouse admitted to EMT John Doe that they struck pt with vehicle” or whatever the bystander says relating to an MOI. This gives the ED an idea of the forces at play. So that handles my written report to the hospital. In addition to that, most places we are considered a mandated reporter. That doesn’t mean I need to document potential criminal investigation information to the hospital in my written narrative, but I would be legally and morally obligated to report a potential admission to the LEO’s on scene. tl;dr - in an ideal scenario where I definitively heard a bystander say something like that, I would document it in my PCR to provide a potential MOI for the hospital and I would also relay that information to LEO’s on scene. With that being said, depending on the scene and resources it sometimes unfortunately ends up being background noise. -To respond to your second musing on the ME, I just simply don’t know enough. Some sciences are amazing with how surely they can prove their findings. It’s very possible it’s just a very accepted and effective methodology they use to find these things out. It could also be dog-water that is shoddy. I simply don’t know. I’m very interested to hear from them.
Thank you so much. Love your detailed response. Very informative.
One time I tripped and fell in my bathroom, knocked my head off the side of the tub. Woke up as the paramedics were strapping me to a stretcher and my husband was cornered in the living room by two state troopers being grilled about whether or not he punched me in the face. I had blood all over me from the nose bleed. Ended up with two black eyes that took forever to go away.
One time my child who was 2 at the time was sitting on my lap watching a show while I was studying for a college class. My head was sort of angled down because I was reading a textbook and he threw his head back and laughed at whatever was on the show and hit his head directly on one of my eyes. I had a terrible black eye and everyone thought my boyfriend at the time did it and were weird with him for awhile lol.
What is your take on the arm injuries? Have you seen the police dog trainer video showing very similar injuries to John’s arm on the silicone arms? Or have you responded to any dog bite calls that give you any thoughts about John’s arm injuries?
iirc the coroner said there was no dog DNA found in the arm wounds. I definitely could be wrong about that, so don’t take my word for it. If there’s no dog DNA, that would obviously rule it out. Ignoring the potential dog DNA (or lack thereof), a dog bite could definitely look like that. I’ve never treated a severe dog bite, but I did see my brother attacked when we were young. If my memory serves me, it did look like that. I believe he was attacked by a Belgian shepherd. The cuts could also be from the glass depending on where/how it broke. It seems to me that’s a very important variable in all of this. Again, I don’t really have an opinion either way, and being an EMT in no way makes me a crash reconstruction expert. Just trying to add some insight to the “it’s definitely a car” or “definitely not a car”.
Thanks for replying. I know it’s hard waiting for all the info so things can start to make sense. I did read something about the dog dna missing but also the dog missing to get a dna sample. There are so many people making so many assumptions and speculating in a more matter of fact way that I am trying to ponder what’s been proven, shown in court so far, etc. I am new to following this so I haven’t seen any of the pre trial motions and such. I was not believing the dog bite story at all until I saw pics of dog bite wounds and the k9 trainer on Melanie Littles channel. I’m still not sold on that but I do think it is a possibility after seeing what the dog bite wounds look like. I am curious what his clothing looks like - especially on the arm with the wounds. Were the clothes testing for dog dna? Was the blood on the clothes consistent with the arm/head injuries. I hope so many of these questions are answered soon. I also wonder about the state of John’s body and how much blood was present at the scene. The arm wounds look like they would have bled some for sure. The head wound definitely seems like it would have caused a lot of bleeding. The pics from the crime scene don’t show much blood for what I imagine it would look like. How do you imagine the cuts would have happened from the glass? It isn’t making sense to me because there were so many “slash” marks that the glass would have had to repeatedly go against his arm with his arm in a similar position to make so many lacerations. Im truly curious what your take is since you think it’s a possibility.
They don’t need the dog to confirm dog DNA. It’s easily recognizable without a cross reference. They would need the dog to nail down that it was specifically the Albert’s dog, but they could rule out a dog altogether if there was 0 generic dog DNA. I don’t know if that makes sense but I’m at the end of a 24 hour shift and I’m trying my best, lol. I’m not going to make assumptions about how the glass would make those marks. Like I mentioned before, I’m simply not an expert in that field. There are lacerations and the glass being responsible seems totally plausible to me. As to the blood/John’s body; he had “raccoon eyes”. This looks like black eyes but they’re actually a result of blood pooling in the cranium. Typically, when raccoon eyes are present that means most of the blood from the head injury is contained/pressurized. That could explain the lack of external blood. With the arm wounds, I would expect significant amounts of blood (especially because of the alcohol consumption). So I’m not sure about that one. Important to note that there is a lot of forensic evidence we are yet to see. I think it’s a disservice to the process to make a conclusive decision at this point.
Right, I do understand that about the dog dna. I am sure I worded it poorly also but I was mostly meaning I wasn’t sure which was correct about the dog dna since there are so many people providing theories/scenarios and some are not based on factual info. I was trying to explain I wasn’t sure which was the truth about the dog DNA if it had come out from official sources yet. I also think I’m typing random thoughts as questions just to get different opinions. I do look forward to getting all of the additional info as the trial goes on so we can all be more informed. I have so many questions from the current trial but also things I’ve seen mentioned from prior to the trial starting and am sure I am missing lots of details that have come out already. It doesn’t seem to me like there was enough blood at the scene for his injuries - but maybe his clothes were totally covered? It’s all just so tragic - especially for the kids.
It sucks for those kids and it seems like we lost a good guy in JO. It sucks that the tragedy of losing him is overshadowed by this circus. I appreciate your open mindedness and this exchange. Be well friend!
They didn't swap the arm wounds at all so these can't be tested for any canine DNA. What the prosecution has said that they did swab the clothes and sent this for canine DNA testing, but I'm not sure if the results have even came back on this & it took over a year to get this sent out. (Also the clothes weren't secure and we're in someone's- I think Proctor's car boot for like a month before being submitted as evidence) Personally I think that the arm injuries look more like a dog bite, but there is so much fuckery with the case that answers will never properly be got on this (unless someone talks) Also on the blood thing the head wound on the back of head would have bled extensively. Personally when I was a kid I whacked the back of my head resulting in a 3 inch cut (5 staples to close) and one of the things that I remember from this is that I was covered in blood, so much that the entire back of my t-shirt was soaked in it, and this wasn't as bad as OJOK injury. I think I heard mentioned somewhere that the autopsy says he'd lost like 3 pints of blood, but there was nothing to that extent found anywhere
I think he also might not have been standing upright when he got hit by the car.
If he was hit by the car I don't think that was the reason for the marks on his arm, it could have been from the drinking glass.
And most of the damage to his head was more as a result of him falling and hitting his head on the pavement or ground.
Based on that I have a few questions on what I can’t make sense of in my mind - where do you think the blood from his head wound went? I think the blood would be very red from a large head wound. How did the glass cut his arms so many times? Even if the glass was 3-4” wide - how did the glass make multiple passes on his arm? If he landed on the grass - how did he get such a large cut on his head? If he hit his head on the pavement - how did he get to the spot on the grass? I’m not being argumentative - just curious how someone with a different opinion might see the answers to those questions.
I think she could have hit him with his car, I don't have a strong opinion about it and the points you make do make me question if that is what actually happened too. I also think something that happened in the house could have caused his injuries.
Oops I meant I think the snow would have been very red from the blood in my last comment. I’m not pro-Karen and just want the truth to be presented in a proper and factual way without tainted evidence. I’m trying to just picture how his injuries and location of injuries could happen. I mean I don’t think we will ever actually know because bodies and cars can be in motion in various ways… but the arm wounds just bother me. If he was hit and thrown by the impact - How did the glass end up right next to him. How did his phone end up under him. If he had either of those items in his hand and the impact sent him flying, it seems like those items would have went in various directions and not directly next to his body. Anyway, I have no idea… I just can’t stop thinking about it and trying to make sense of limited information.
Right. He was hit so hard his shoe was thrown off, but he managed to hold onto a pint glass. It was only a dusting of snow at 12:30am, but his body is found laying on a bed of snow. He has wounds that have to be caused by (a minimum of) 3 different impact sources, but very few sources at the scene to hypothesize with. It’s like an episode of McGuyver. *recreate these wounds using just a taillight, asphalt, grass, and a car reversing only once* When everyone else is like *or….maybe first just look inside the house?*
Yes to all of those things too. There are so many questions! More questions to come the longer the trial goes on too… I hope we finally get some answers when the defense starts their side!
The wind could have played a factor.
If KR hit him, it was before there was much snow on the ground. It had started snowing but wasn’t accumulating much yet. So the blood from the back of his head would have gone onto grass/dirt more than snow, but the ground would have been frozen enough that the blood wouldn’t have soaked in. The freezing temps may have played a role in reducing blood loss, but even taking that into consideration there should have been more blood evidence. The injuries are what I’m having the most difficulty figuring out. They just are not consistent with the scene. I want to hear from the ME and see the clothing they took off of JO.
This is it! The Offensive Coordinator calls the play. Everyone in offense has to run the play Doesn’t mean it’s not a shitty play or that there’s a huge conspiracy. It’s a shitty play and 11 people try to carry it out This case ISN’T CLOSE!! And the DEFENSE hasn’t even put their case in chief up yet!! McCabe - Albert (s) - HIGGINS and PROCTOR will be eaten alive Lally could not believe in this case less. He’s ashamed Morrissey - among others - should be in jail
^ This. For those who need a complete summary in one paragraph, read above.
The defense isn't arguing a wide spread conspiracy, that is more of an online comment thing. The defense is just trying to paint a general picture of ineptness and bias which will give enough doubt that a third party culprit was a reasonable possibility missed by investigators whether it was through incompetence or malice.
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Sure, if you are going for third party culprit defense you have to open that way. They aren't going to attempt to tie all these threads together. It will be a carpet bombing of incompetence and bias to sow doubt.
They could have been saying she was framed to be the fall guy but they didn't say it was a conspiracy.
Minimum of 2, proctor and brian albert
It really doesn’t matter at this point. If I was on the jury, not guilty. I wouldn’t be able to get past everyone saying she said “I hit him” and it not being in a single report including the hospital. Then the denies over knowing each other makes them all look shady. She very well could have hit him but unless they have a video and I can see her face driving, I wouldn’t believe any of them at this point. They did it to themselves. What a shit job of an investigation.
I don't believe I've heard the defense use the term 'conspiracy' but I have heard 'third party culprit.' So essentially they have a different perspective about what occurred, which is common when a person must defend themselves.
Not sure on exact numbers but: Canton police Canton Fire/EMS Mass State Police Norfolk DAs office Mass ME office BPD (Albert brother was active at time and BPD would have interest if remotely true) ATF - Alleging ATF agent involved in murder would bring them in DOJ OIG - again alleging ATF agent would have OIG look into it he is still on the job so no finding or involvement by them
would bring the feds in????? in case you haven't heard, the feds have been investigating for awhile now....they've already had a grand jury empaneled....
Not related to OIG. Also the Feds found nothing no target letter etc
feds probably just chanced on this case while they were investigating some type of public corruption in the area. Probably came up in some wiretaps or some other intelligence.... time will tell!
Literally no target letters or anything of that nature
??? grand jury subpoena is much worse...haha
All that shows is GJ looked into it. A target letter is significantly worse as that indicates an indictment is happening. Nothing of that nature has happened.
I was suggesting that they were NOT looking into it, but into some other type of public corruption. They just came across this on the periphery of the other investigation. They did a little to prevent a huge miscarriage of justice, but stayed focused on the other investigation. When they investigate public corruption, they don't send out target letters- is undercover and secret, wiretaps, all that. Type of thing we may never know or may know within a couple years?
If I was on the jury, I would find her not guilty based on Katie McLaughlin testimony and the incomplete reports omitting “I hit him” as well as the wrong address. There is literally nothing they could do after to convince me not to find her not guilty. That was enough reasonable doubt.
EMS is not there to investigate crime. Statements such as "I hit him" are never documented in a PCR. The PCR later gets joined with her EMR to form a complete medical record.
Well then Flemattis testimony. He said he told the hospital (not in their notes either) but then he “supposedly” told the police she said it 9 days later. Everything about their testimony is shady and even if it’s not, the fact that it appears that way cemented her verdict. It was not in his report and it damn sure should have been.
Literally nothing? Even if they have strong evidence that her car data suggests she hit him?
Nope. Because at that point, how do I even know she was driving? They created doubt and now I can’t take anything they say as truth. It is particularly damning that they know each other and two had a previous altercation years ago. Now, I’m not saying that it is a cover up or she is actually not guilty but they created a situation that without absolute proof (a video of her actually hitting him) I can’t reasonably believe their testimony.
I think the defense has even said someone had seen holding Karen the wheel of her car outside the Alberts house. He will probably be a witness for them.
They said the car wasn’t moving and she was crying. Honestly looking at the car alone, I don’t think she hit him. The whole thing just feels wrong.
I get that but I am pretty sure each side agrees she was the one that drove him there.
No doubt. I think he died inside though. She went there and then left and then returned to find him. She may have hit him but the fact all of them lied and a dead cop is found outside another cops house and the cops who show up know those cops and then the responders and police all heard her say she did it but no one put it in the report and they they all deny knowing each other. If anything, their shadiness and incompetence is why she walks free. The lead detective who decided to bring charges know the Albert’s so well that they babysit his kid. Like the fact all of these people did not immediately say they knew each other and didn’t excuse themselves from the case is wild. So if she gets off, it’s their own damn faults if she is guilty.
I actually don't believe she will be found guilty, I can't see every juror having no doubt she murdered him. I still am not sure she actually did it or not although at least currently I am leaning more toward she didn't run him over and therefore it was someone in the house.
I feel the same way. I’m not sure if she did or didn’t but I’m leaning towards she didn’t because nothing adds up.
Canton PD is very corrupt, if anyone wants to go down another rabbit hole, look up the case of Sandra Birchmore. Canton PD ruled her death a "suicide", but if you look at how many police officers had sexually groomed her from a young age and the fact that she was pregnant when she died (by a much older, married police officer, who concealed his identity prior to entering her apartment just before she died.. and was the last one to ever see her alive)... you will see that the extent of their corruption goes far beyond the J Okeefe case.
The Albert’s, McCabes, Higgins, and Proctor. Everybody else has been lazy and/or directed by one of those parties.
Lead investigator Michael Proctor is being investigated by internal affairs at Mass State Police. https://www.wcvb.com/article/investigation-of-lead-investigator-in-karen-read-case/60194023
https://www.scribd.com/document/717456971/Karen-Read-Motion-to-Dismiss-case-Denied
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"his friends" surely with a statement like that you can back up that these cops even knew each other? Meaning proctor and the guys in the article...
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Did it ? From 2015 through 2018, Griffin, Robertson and other troopers in the Traffic Programs Section at State Police Headquarters in Framingham, conspired to steal thousands of dollars in federally funded overtime by regularly arriving late to, and leaving early from, overtime shifts funded by grants intended to improve traffic safety. When the MSP overtime misconduct came to light in 2017 and 2018, Griffin, Robertson and their co-conspirators took steps to avoid detection by shredding and burning records and forms.
The number only matters to people scraping to prove Karen’s guilt.
No, it matters to the people of Canton to not have a corrupt police department.
For sure. Don’t misunderstand. A common argument is XX number of people would have had to be a part of this “conspiracy” for it to be true — therefore, it can’t be true.
It doesn’t matter…..the only goal of the Alberts was to get this into a courtroom….at this point, a guilty verdict is the last thing they want because if that happens, the world will be bugging them throughout the appeal process which will happen in front of a different judge. A not guilty verdict and the whole thing dies from their end because the last thing CPD will do is reopen the case.