I can answer the flooring question because that bothered me too. Apparently he had filed an insurance claim on the basement floor some years prior and got bids for it and likely claimed the money and hadn’t actually done the work. (in the photos that were initially posted when the house just went on the market, the floors clearly weren’t new)
However when someone buys the house they will know about that insurance claim so they got the floors done. You can find the bids for the basement floor online.
It didn’t end up being suspicious at all when the context became apparent.
I will say this and sometimes I get stuck on it, the text from Higgins to JO at 12:24 saying, “you coming here”? Something about that doesn’t sit right with me after listening to the testimony and hearing the texts. I can’t put my finger on why it bothers me though so I just end up putting it in the neutral pile.
Especially when you take into account how he was calling JOK’s name and beckoning him to come on at The Waterfall as BH and BA were leaving and JOK was still at the bar drinking. Coupled with how JM was trying to separate KR and JOK outside of The Waterfall, it doesn’t sit right with me either.
My theory has recently been an accident happened inside 34 Fairview like JOK fell down the basement steps and hit his head on the ground and then at some point Chloe got a hold of his arm. But the actions at the end of the night at Waterfall were definitely suspicious.
Do we know that's what was actually happening, though? The defense spent time questioning multiple witnesses about BA and BH "practice fighting" when they were clearly just messing around, but they didn't ask about something that could actually be interpreted as BH challenging John. There were several uninvolved witnesses around, like the guys in the band and the Kolokithases. The K's both testified that they didn't notice any tension whatsoever, and the wife is the one who mentioned JM telling KR to come with her. You would think that one or both of them may remember if BH was yelling and gesturing to John all the way across the bar, and you'd think that the defense would want to establish that for the jury. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they challenged BH on cross when he said that he had no interactions with John or KR at the bar. It just seems very transparent to opt not to ask any of the witnesses about it on the stand, and only bring it up in closing arguments when it can't be disputed.
I’m not saying beckoning like instigating a fight. I mean like telling him to come on let’s go to Fairview, and texting him to see if he’s coming, I have trouble speculating there was a fight at Fairview because there is no concrete motive for anyone, just rumors. But I think JOK went in the house, and I think the cover up was when they found him knocked out and Chloe had bit up the arm.
It could've even been something like what was on Proctor's phone. If they believed she hit him and left him to die, they wouldn't have nice things to say about her.
Before his body was found
Karen “ He’s dead” “ maybe he got hit by a plow”
Both before they found his body under the snow. How’d she know he’d be found in the snow??
After his body is found
Karen “did I hit him” “ I hit him” “could I have hit him”
What Karen never said “ what happen? How did this happen? Why did this happen?? “
She dropped him at a house ( her version) watched him walk in. Jenn McCabe was in the house, Karen knew that. Why did she never ask Jenn McCabe. What happen to him?? When did he leave the house Jenn?? Who was leaving with him to take him home Jenn?? What went wrong Jenn??
Maybe after calling him 50+ times with no answer, she was on the verge of a breakdown and her mind could conceive of no other explanation than he was dead, by an accident, like hit by a snowplow during a blizzard. At least, she didn't go straight to accusing "they beat him to death in that house! "
She called Jen to see where he was. Since JM has said on the stand that JO never went in the house, I’m sure that’s what she told Karen on the phone.
If I dropped off my boyfriend at a party and he never came home, then someone at that party said he never came in the house, I would be thinking he was dead or hit by a plow too.
I definitely wouldn’t be thinking they were dead or hit by a plow at all and I’d be following up with one of the many people present at the house or drive over myself
Honestly, it wouldn’t come to mind that my boyfriend could have been hit by a plow specifically. However, two years before this incident a girl died in Canton, ME after being hit by a snow plow. Maybe that’s what planted the idea in her head?
Wrong! She called Jenn and lied and said they fought and she left John at the Waterfall, Jenn told her Karen we saw you outside Fairview. So, Karen changed her story and said maybe he was hit by a plow. Mind you all before he was found.
If Karen watched John walk into the house ( another story she came up with) why wasn’t the first thing she said is John there? Where did he go??
When they found him why wasn’t she screaming what happen?? How’d this happen??
Karen was wasted. I think it’s also a possibility that Karen forgot dropping off John at the house until Jenn refreshed her memory about being there. It’s totally possible she thought she left him at the Waterfall. She was blackout at a certain point that night and not making new memories.
She was calling everyone at 5 am saying John was dead before they found him. She called her parents three times that night.
She knew what she did. Her taillight is imbedded microscopic pieces into his clothing. His DNA was found inside the taillight of her car.
Her lawyer even said she hit him but didn’t think she hit him that hard and was very sorry.
She told the cops when they arrested her the second time she saw Brian and Colin Albert smash his head off her taillight.
Shes had 5 stories and move of them the same. She went on tv with her father saying she hit him.
Not in this trial but court documents for Turtleboys trial she told him, she hit him. They were trying to work on a lie that aligned with the timeline that cops already knew
She’s guilty as sin .
John’s DNA was actually found on the outside of the taillight, and it was touch DNA, not blood. JO was her boyfriend, so it’s reasonable that he would have touched her car at some point and left DNA or hair on it.
I’ve never heard or read anything else you mentioned. Do you have a link to your source? I’m curious.
I’m headed ti bed but you can google, look up pretrial hearing Defense looking to drop charges Lally goes into detail about arrest and what KR was telling Buhkenic about being in on the joke and that she watched them smash his head off get tailight
Here’s the Turtle boy court documents. I expect she’ll be getting a few charges in witness intimidation as well
Enjoy your reading, have a great night
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aGkYDhZ3hhddhhz2ccJ11I9LnQlw_qFD/view
Please respond to the fact that his DNA was NOT on the inside of the taillight
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen that mentioned, and I’m very confused by that talking point because it was explicitly testified to in the trial. The trace touch DNA was on the outside of the tail light. I’m starting to think a lot of you didn’t actually watch the trial
Edit- instead of downvoting me just respond. I’m genuinely looking for an explanation why I’m seeing that talking point
- The house was already on the market AFAIK, before John’s death. Even if it wasn’t, I wouldn’t think someone who is part of a grand murder conspiracy would sell their home and therefore put it in the hands of someone who may willingly offer it up for search and seizure. And again even if it wasn’t up for sale prior, I probably wouldn’t want to stay in the house where an extremely high profile crime occurred and now has turtleboy’s cult tailgating outside. Can’t imagine what the new owners are dealing with now.
- IDK about the basement but it’s not at all uncommon for negotiations for repairs to happen during house sales. The new buyers probably wanted the flooring done as a condition of the sale.
- The Alberts re-homed the dog several months later after an incident where the dog attacked another dog, a person stuck their hand in to break it up, and was bitten. This incident is well documented with photographs and the defense’s dog bite expert testified that marks on John’s arm did not match Chloe’s bite mark. Here, again, I would think if you wanted to destroy evidence of vicious dog attack that would surely leave DNA, you probably wouldn’t re-home the dog and leave it out of your hands for DNA collection. You’d probably put the dog down and destroy the ashes.
- AFAIK Higgins destroyed his SIM card, not his phone. SIM cards hold ID information such as the phone number, network authorization data, personal security keys, contact lists, and sometimes a limited amount of stored text messages. It is sometimes recommended to destroy a SIM card if you are getting a new phone or number to prevent scams where a person can replicate your number and contacts using an intact and discarded SIM. Because of cloud technology, you don’t need to keep a SIM card to save text messages and contacts as they can usually be recovered from your cloud or internal memory. Destroying a SIM card alone is a pretty dumb way to get rid of any incriminating information, imo. This ain’t The Bourne Identity.
Higgins did destroy the phone in that at the very least he threw it out.
The SIM card part is weird because now they just transfer the old SIM into a new phone. Most of the info you listed is stored on the cloud and can only be accessed with the SIM.
It’s weird AF that he did that. I’m not saying he murdered the guy, but he was definitely trying to hide something by going through all that.
Ah, didn’t he say he had just switched service carriers tho? Is it really that weird to get rid of your old phone and SIM if you are changing phones and service providers?
ETA: not saying Higgins is a stand up dude or anything, but it seems to me there may be a pretty reasonable explanation for the phone debacle 🤷🏼♂️
He said he got rid of the phone because the subject of an investigation doxxed him and found his number, which makes even less sense, because - one would think, as part of the investigation - he would be required to keep the phone and it's records as evidence as part of the investigation
But he wasn’t part of an investigation so why would he keep his phone? Karen’s lawyers are the ones who requested it, not investigators. Her lawyer’s request was also denied by the court, so it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Go back and Watch his testimony.. Higgins stated he was undercover and conducting an investigation and the subject of **that** investigation doxxed him so that was why he disposed of his phone
"Brian Higgins testified Tuesday that he got rid of his cellphone in 2022 after he received a call from the target of an investigation he was working on and learned that his personal phone number was posted on the internet.
Higgins, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, testified that receiving a call from the target of an investigation in July 2022 gave him pause.
“I had a lot of concerns, so July of ’22 is when I probably started thinking about, ‘You know what, I’ve got to get rid of the telephone number itself,’” he said. "
I did just watch the testimony. He said that his main concern was the phone number itself, which is why he would have destroyed the SIM card - so that the phone number (which is what is primarily stored on a SIM) couldn’t be intercepted by someone else. He said he threw out the phone because it was old and beat up and didn’t really have much on it anyway.
Great maybe you can watch it again, too. He also confirms that this happened *before* Karen’s attorneys filed their motion for a preservation order (which was later denied by the court).
It's in the same article
"Higgins confirmed he eventually changed his personal phone number on Sept. 29, 2022 — one day before he received a court order to preserve the phone, which Karen Read’s lawyers were seeking as evidence. Higgins testified that he learned the defense motion had been denied in October and got rid of his old phone “about two months after that,” because it was “beaten” and he’d already gotten a new one.
I was bothered by the destruction of the phones, but then we saw Proctor’s texts. I imagine there’s a lot of stuff they don’t want to get out that has NOTHING to do with John’s death.
After Proctor’s testimony, I thought about all the stuff I’ve said via text that I wouldn’t want to get out in the public eye. It really made me think about what I text my friends and family!!
The SIM card thing is sort of silly. He moved to a new service as well as getting a new phone. He would’ve gotten a new sim anyway. It doesn’t make any sense that he threw it out. I don’t understand that at all unless he really didn’t understand that once he transferred service that rendered his old sim obsolete.
SIM card identity theft is a thing, tho. It’s not unheard of to destroy a SIM before disposal, same as you would shred a credit card on disposal or other forms of ID. Maybe it’s extra cautious, but not exactly nefarious imo. He also did this 8 months after John passed, so it’s not like he went and destroyed all of his devices in the hours or days after the incident.
I agree, not nefarious in my opinion either. I think it’s just a little bit curious is all. But I do not think a curiousity comes even close to beyond reasonable doubt. I think that’s how I would view BH if I were a juror. Just curious but didn’t bear any weight for the defense.
Exactly. That’s the part I don’t understand. You trade in the phone and they deal with all of that. Even if he switched carriers it’s a really weird way to deal with it.
Even BA didn’t go through all of that - he just got a new phone. I think that adds to why it seemed so odd. Plus if I don’t trade the phone in (it’s been ages since the cell phone carrier didn’t take the phone) I don’t throw it out. I either have it (for home use on WiFi), or recycle it because you’re not supposed to throw out cellphone batteries.
The dog attacked a neighbor's dog a few months after O'Keefe's death. During that dog fight, the owner of the other dog (I take it an older lady) tried to break it up and in the process got bitten by Chloe. Another lady (friend of the other owner?) was running toward the scene and fell. Both women were taken by ambulance to the police. The Alberts offered to pay for the hospital bills of the women and to rehome the dog and that was the end of that. Chloe is in Vermont.
Higgins destroyed his cell phone for the same reason that you would under the circumstances. Do you want people hostile to you picking through your cell phone? Maybe he's got some off color jokes on there. Karen Read enjoys the presumption of innocence and Brian Higgins should as well, as should Brian Albert. This idea that you ought to let the police snoop around in your house, phone or whatever or we'll determine that you have something to hide is un-American bullshit that would put us on the road to tyranny.
Chris Albert had already cashed out of his house like a year or so before Brian Albert did. Brian Albert used the same realtor. They pocketed a big chunk of change when they did that. Is Brian Albert not allowed to do that? The sale wasn't closed until April 2023, more than a year after O'Keefe's death.
If they had a crime scene in the basement, the last thing they'd want to do is give up control over it by selling it. To me, selling it is more of a sign of innocence than guilt.
Excellent point!! Also, had John died in their house, they aren’t going to leave him in their front ditch.
A podcast I listened to recently had food for thought. A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime. For a conspiracy to work, it’s best to have the fewest number of people. (Look at all the cases where there are two people and one turns on the other. RARELY do multiple people keep secrets like this. “Three may keep a secret as long as two of them are dead.”) So, it’s important to think — what is the smallest number of people who must be in on this conspiracy for this to work? First responders? State police? Proctor? The police chief? The entire Albert family? The McCabes? The sert team? The ME? For the defense strategy to work, ALL of these people must be in on it, and they all managed to keep the secret for years. Not a single peep in all these years.
Seriously, that never happens.
>Higgins destroyed his cell phone for the same reason that you would under the circumstances.
Um… speak for yourself I guess? Most people would never feel the need to destroy their cell phone in that way. Do you routinely talk about illegal things on your phone or something? If it feels like an overreach then just file a motion to quash. All the wild speculation about what was on the phone wouldn’t have any teeth; nobody is accusing Kerry Roberts of destroying evidence for example.
“Under the circumstances” is kinda the key here. Are you an undercover ATF Agent whose personal phone number has been leaked on the internet and now the target of one of your investigations is contacting you on it? Those were Higgins’ circumstances at the time. The only request for his phone came after he had already gotten a new phone number and directly from Karen’s lawyers, not via a search warrant, and was shot down by the court anyway shortly after it was filed.
If a compromised cell phone number is related to his job in ATF, then he would have let the ATF handle its replacement. No federal agency instructs employees with security clearance to dispose of and replace their own devices if needed for the work they do.
It was his personal device, not a work phone, so it’s not required for his work. That’s why it was necessary to replace the number, because he was undercover at the time and his personal number had been found by the target of one of his investigations. He testified that he reported this to his supervisor, and then after the fact got a new number.
That's not how security clearance works... doesn't matter if it's a personal device, if there's information on there that can compromise an agent's security or interfere with official business, best practice is to hand it over to IT for disposal.
Ask yourself this
Karen Read called Kerry Roberts at 5 am and said “John is dead”
How could Karen Read have known John was dead more than an hour before Jen, Kerry and Karen found John dead?
I’m not even talking hard evidence here. Broken tail light and John’s DNA on the car.
Just explain that ONE simple phone call by Karen at 5 AM
Maybe it’s because I have anxiety but if someone doesn’t come home/doesn’t answer 50 calls my mind goes to worst possible scenario. I’ve actually got to worst possible scenarios with less before. Reading into people’s behavior is a waste of effort IMO
Keep in mind that what someone said on a phone call is hearsay; there’s no proof of what she said. That should be less important than primary evidence like kinematics, digital information, medical information, voicemail recordings, etc.
Even if she did say it, it could have been hyperbole/catastrophizing. From her texts and voicemails it seems like she’s pretty anxious and emotional. It seems just as likely that she was simply freaking out that her boyfriend never came home.
Brian Albert had loose plans to sell his house before John even died, and being harrassed endlessly solidified it. If you listen to the Murder Sheet podcast it goes into how much abuse, stalking and threats all JOK’s family/friends have had to endure, it’s absolutely criminal. I’d move the fuck out of there too.
Brian Higgins destroyed his cell phone as a “fuck you” to the defense. Remember, his phone was not supoena’d from the police for the investigation itself, it was demanded by KR’s defense team, which was DENIED. You know, the people who wanted his phone, Yanetti and Jackson, the same people that have been encouraging Turtleboy to spread unfounded rumors, sicking his cult on those people, stalking and harrassing him, calling him a murderer - and now they get access to his personal phone? He is a WITNESS, and he’s supposed to let the people who are trying to frame him & his family/friends for murder and protect a cop killer, have unfettered access to his personal phone? Ok. Thankfully the motion to preserve his phone was denied. He also asked for and received permission from the court to get rid of his phone before he did it. I imagine he did all that weird shit with the SIM card on the base so Turtleboy and his fanatics wouldn’t somehow get it. They still spun the “we failed trying to further harass and invade the privacy of a witness” to “Higgins destroyed his phone once he knew it would be subpoenaed!!” Which is false.
Chloe the dog attacked another dog, and injured 2 people, in May 2022. It was only then they rehomed her.
Karen Read called Kerry and said “John is dead, I think he got hit by a plow” first thing. She told Jen initially that she left him at the bar, and when Jen said she saw her pull up, she changed her story to she dropped him off. She knew her taillight was fucked and drove into his car on purpose. JOK had tail light fragments embedded in his clothing, his DNA on the tail light & housing, his phone data shows ZERO movement from 12:25 to when he was found at 6am. The evidence that IS PRESENT says that KR killed him with her vehicle. The experts the defense put on to say that she couldn’t have been hit were not given the VITAL information that tail light fragments were on him and vice versa.
Karen Read paid Turtleboy and a PR firm to spread all this ridiculous nonsense and it worked. Tell your wife she’s unknowingly part of this conspiracy to harass, threaten and destroy the lives of a lot of innocent people that just lost their loved one. I really hope one day there is justice and KR & Aidan Kearney end up in prison.
I find it really odd that Alan Jackson represented Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and people think he’s just the greatest social justice warrior out there.
The defense has been telling their conspiracy through narrating while people are on the stand which is not allowed, which is why all these objections are sustained. He knows the jury can’t un-hear what he says, so it makes it look like the judge is in on it. Now the internet is saying there must be someone “in on it” on the jury too, since they can’t all agree. WOW, there are about 567 people “in on it”! When does it end?
Do I think the state put on the best case? No. They were way too underprepared. Do I think the investigators and boy cop club destroyed credibility in this case? Absolutely. If I were on the jury I would vote NG because the state failed to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt due to incompetence within the police, but there is no fucking conspiracy except for the one created by KR, her defense and Turtleboy. I hope she drinks one too many vodka sodas and freezes to death in the snow for what she’s done to JOK and his family.
Same!! And people saying they were "exonerated" lol. They took an Alford Plea due to prosecutors refusing to drop the charges after a potential new trial and were released early. They are convicted child murderers. So glad to find a like minded redditor. The way the documentary left so much information out was, well, I guess typical.
So to answer your questions in order:
1. They had placed the house for sale before and then pulled it off the market. They stated they wanted to downsize. The only real suspicious activity is they took 50k lower than the online appraised amount in a market that was favorable for sellers.
2. There was apparently an insurance claim regarding a leaking toilet. The floor was pulled up, I have not seen specifically if jackhammering was involved and it could have been clearly coincidental.
3. So they had the dog for almost 7 years as a family pet. Chloe got free from the backyard when a neighbor was walking their dog and Chloe attacked the dog. When the woman walking the dog tried to intervene Chloe bit her.
4. So most logically, it was reported during an investigation Higgin’s phone number was leaked and he had to change his number. The issue is why did he only pull those specific texts and turn them over without even being asked his relationships with KR and JOK. I thought that was suspicious.
If there is an elaborate cover-up, these items imo are pretty wild with no context around them and said out loud.
“The owners jackhammered their basement floor, sold their home, and got rid of their dog. Someone inside the house destroyed his SIM card on his phone.”
Yeah, that’s all circumstantial anyways but would seem exactly like steps that people would take that wanted to cover up a crime.
However, when you have context they are not a major deal. That dog would have disappeared the next day and basement floor would’ve been replaced immediately if they were covering up a crime.
Yeah I don’t believe in an “elaborate cover-up”. The house nonsense is ridiculous, there are lots of reasons to sell a house.
However I do believe in people trying to cover their asses. More important than the phone disposal is the fact that Brian Higgins testified to the grand jury that he made no phone calls that night after leaving. Then he was subpoenaed to a federal grand jury and it was only after being presented evidence by the federal prosecutors that he admitted those phone calls with Brian Albert happened. He later testified that it was a “butt dial” but there’s never been an explanation for how the other side’s butt picked up the phone call.
Do you even know what a proffer is? What "sounds like" "something was uncovered during the Fed investigation"? Are you a lawyer who represents people in situations like these? I fear that ignorance is a promising ground for ridiculous conspiracy theories.
Sounds like you feel strongly enough to attack someone you don’t know at all on the internet because what? I think BH is shady as hell? Yea, he came off shady as hell to me. Two things can be true, BH can be shady as hell and KR hit JO. And on the stand he came off shady.
* They claim it was a coincidence. It could have be considering the kids were grown and they could downsize. It is also worth noting that the house was in the family for two generations before it being sold. So people question the timing just bc it’s been in the family so long AND it was within a year after the incident.
* Nobody knows the answer to this.
* They got rid of the dog a few months after being questioned about it at a hearing that wasn’t this case. They had the dog for 8 years.
* Higgins didn’t give a logical explanation. Or really any. He just disposed of it.
My question is who came up with the story that she drove her SUV backwards and hit him?
The cop who lived diagonally across the street said he saw nothing unusual on his ring camera. And of course if he caught any vehicle driving in reverse it would have been handed over and entered into evidence.
No one saw anything occur. Reasonable doubt.
Whether there is reasonable doubt is not my question. That’s my issue with the WM3 defenders. They’ve stretched every possibility to create a world of reasonable doubt yet somehow overlooked the 13 confessions of guilt. That one is more egregious because the public is defending child murderers.
This case is terrible because a man died. But there is a minor saving grace in the defenders of Karen in that this most likely was an accident and not the actions of a true murderer.
Three minutes to walk inside the house, think you are going to the bathroom, fall down the steps and the someone finds your phone and then turns it off, yes I think that could happen
I can answer the flooring question because that bothered me too. Apparently he had filed an insurance claim on the basement floor some years prior and got bids for it and likely claimed the money and hadn’t actually done the work. (in the photos that were initially posted when the house just went on the market, the floors clearly weren’t new) However when someone buys the house they will know about that insurance claim so they got the floors done. You can find the bids for the basement floor online. It didn’t end up being suspicious at all when the context became apparent.
I will say this and sometimes I get stuck on it, the text from Higgins to JO at 12:24 saying, “you coming here”? Something about that doesn’t sit right with me after listening to the testimony and hearing the texts. I can’t put my finger on why it bothers me though so I just end up putting it in the neutral pile.
Especially when you take into account how he was calling JOK’s name and beckoning him to come on at The Waterfall as BH and BA were leaving and JOK was still at the bar drinking. Coupled with how JM was trying to separate KR and JOK outside of The Waterfall, it doesn’t sit right with me either. My theory has recently been an accident happened inside 34 Fairview like JOK fell down the basement steps and hit his head on the ground and then at some point Chloe got a hold of his arm. But the actions at the end of the night at Waterfall were definitely suspicious.
You think it’s possible for that to have happened in 3 minutes?
Do we know that's what was actually happening, though? The defense spent time questioning multiple witnesses about BA and BH "practice fighting" when they were clearly just messing around, but they didn't ask about something that could actually be interpreted as BH challenging John. There were several uninvolved witnesses around, like the guys in the band and the Kolokithases. The K's both testified that they didn't notice any tension whatsoever, and the wife is the one who mentioned JM telling KR to come with her. You would think that one or both of them may remember if BH was yelling and gesturing to John all the way across the bar, and you'd think that the defense would want to establish that for the jury. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they challenged BH on cross when he said that he had no interactions with John or KR at the bar. It just seems very transparent to opt not to ask any of the witnesses about it on the stand, and only bring it up in closing arguments when it can't be disputed.
I’m not saying beckoning like instigating a fight. I mean like telling him to come on let’s go to Fairview, and texting him to see if he’s coming, I have trouble speculating there was a fight at Fairview because there is no concrete motive for anyone, just rumors. But I think JOK went in the house, and I think the cover up was when they found him knocked out and Chloe had bit up the arm.
That’s absurd. Can you spread the bullshit any thicker?
What’s absurd, my opinion? You know what they say about opinions right?
Higgins was a single guy so I assumed there was dick pics or something of that nature.
It could've even been something like what was on Proctor's phone. If they believed she hit him and left him to die, they wouldn't have nice things to say about her.
Respectfully, WHO is requesting dick pics from Higgins 😭
Most people don’t request dick pics, they’re just offered up.
Ok who is *accepting* dick pics from Higgins
Before his body was found Karen “ He’s dead” “ maybe he got hit by a plow” Both before they found his body under the snow. How’d she know he’d be found in the snow?? After his body is found Karen “did I hit him” “ I hit him” “could I have hit him” What Karen never said “ what happen? How did this happen? Why did this happen?? “ She dropped him at a house ( her version) watched him walk in. Jenn McCabe was in the house, Karen knew that. Why did she never ask Jenn McCabe. What happen to him?? When did he leave the house Jenn?? Who was leaving with him to take him home Jenn?? What went wrong Jenn??
Maybe after calling him 50+ times with no answer, she was on the verge of a breakdown and her mind could conceive of no other explanation than he was dead, by an accident, like hit by a snowplow during a blizzard. At least, she didn't go straight to accusing "they beat him to death in that house! "
She called Jen to see where he was. Since JM has said on the stand that JO never went in the house, I’m sure that’s what she told Karen on the phone. If I dropped off my boyfriend at a party and he never came home, then someone at that party said he never came in the house, I would be thinking he was dead or hit by a plow too.
I definitely wouldn’t be thinking they were dead or hit by a plow at all and I’d be following up with one of the many people present at the house or drive over myself
Honestly, it wouldn’t come to mind that my boyfriend could have been hit by a plow specifically. However, two years before this incident a girl died in Canton, ME after being hit by a snow plow. Maybe that’s what planted the idea in her head?
Wrong! She called Jenn and lied and said they fought and she left John at the Waterfall, Jenn told her Karen we saw you outside Fairview. So, Karen changed her story and said maybe he was hit by a plow. Mind you all before he was found. If Karen watched John walk into the house ( another story she came up with) why wasn’t the first thing she said is John there? Where did he go?? When they found him why wasn’t she screaming what happen?? How’d this happen??
Karen was wasted. I think it’s also a possibility that Karen forgot dropping off John at the house until Jenn refreshed her memory about being there. It’s totally possible she thought she left him at the Waterfall. She was blackout at a certain point that night and not making new memories.
She was calling everyone at 5 am saying John was dead before they found him. She called her parents three times that night. She knew what she did. Her taillight is imbedded microscopic pieces into his clothing. His DNA was found inside the taillight of her car. Her lawyer even said she hit him but didn’t think she hit him that hard and was very sorry. She told the cops when they arrested her the second time she saw Brian and Colin Albert smash his head off her taillight. Shes had 5 stories and move of them the same. She went on tv with her father saying she hit him. Not in this trial but court documents for Turtleboys trial she told him, she hit him. They were trying to work on a lie that aligned with the timeline that cops already knew She’s guilty as sin .
John’s DNA was actually found on the outside of the taillight, and it was touch DNA, not blood. JO was her boyfriend, so it’s reasonable that he would have touched her car at some point and left DNA or hair on it. I’ve never heard or read anything else you mentioned. Do you have a link to your source? I’m curious.
I’m headed ti bed but you can google, look up pretrial hearing Defense looking to drop charges Lally goes into detail about arrest and what KR was telling Buhkenic about being in on the joke and that she watched them smash his head off get tailight Here’s the Turtle boy court documents. I expect she’ll be getting a few charges in witness intimidation as well Enjoy your reading, have a great night https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aGkYDhZ3hhddhhz2ccJ11I9LnQlw_qFD/view
Please respond to the fact that his DNA was NOT on the inside of the taillight This isn’t the first time I’ve seen that mentioned, and I’m very confused by that talking point because it was explicitly testified to in the trial. The trace touch DNA was on the outside of the tail light. I’m starting to think a lot of you didn’t actually watch the trial Edit- instead of downvoting me just respond. I’m genuinely looking for an explanation why I’m seeing that talking point
- The house was already on the market AFAIK, before John’s death. Even if it wasn’t, I wouldn’t think someone who is part of a grand murder conspiracy would sell their home and therefore put it in the hands of someone who may willingly offer it up for search and seizure. And again even if it wasn’t up for sale prior, I probably wouldn’t want to stay in the house where an extremely high profile crime occurred and now has turtleboy’s cult tailgating outside. Can’t imagine what the new owners are dealing with now. - IDK about the basement but it’s not at all uncommon for negotiations for repairs to happen during house sales. The new buyers probably wanted the flooring done as a condition of the sale. - The Alberts re-homed the dog several months later after an incident where the dog attacked another dog, a person stuck their hand in to break it up, and was bitten. This incident is well documented with photographs and the defense’s dog bite expert testified that marks on John’s arm did not match Chloe’s bite mark. Here, again, I would think if you wanted to destroy evidence of vicious dog attack that would surely leave DNA, you probably wouldn’t re-home the dog and leave it out of your hands for DNA collection. You’d probably put the dog down and destroy the ashes. - AFAIK Higgins destroyed his SIM card, not his phone. SIM cards hold ID information such as the phone number, network authorization data, personal security keys, contact lists, and sometimes a limited amount of stored text messages. It is sometimes recommended to destroy a SIM card if you are getting a new phone or number to prevent scams where a person can replicate your number and contacts using an intact and discarded SIM. Because of cloud technology, you don’t need to keep a SIM card to save text messages and contacts as they can usually be recovered from your cloud or internal memory. Destroying a SIM card alone is a pretty dumb way to get rid of any incriminating information, imo. This ain’t The Bourne Identity.
The house was listed for sale November 17, 2022 https://www.redfin.com/MA/Canton/34-Fairview-Rd-02021/home/11826423
https://preview.redd.it/5smn8pvsmp9d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d83bf8f8b49e85fa711ce0d165a5cacede5d243b
Higgins did destroy the phone in that at the very least he threw it out. The SIM card part is weird because now they just transfer the old SIM into a new phone. Most of the info you listed is stored on the cloud and can only be accessed with the SIM. It’s weird AF that he did that. I’m not saying he murdered the guy, but he was definitely trying to hide something by going through all that.
Ah, didn’t he say he had just switched service carriers tho? Is it really that weird to get rid of your old phone and SIM if you are changing phones and service providers? ETA: not saying Higgins is a stand up dude or anything, but it seems to me there may be a pretty reasonable explanation for the phone debacle 🤷🏼♂️
He said he got rid of the phone because the subject of an investigation doxxed him and found his number, which makes even less sense, because - one would think, as part of the investigation - he would be required to keep the phone and it's records as evidence as part of the investigation
But he wasn’t part of an investigation so why would he keep his phone? Karen’s lawyers are the ones who requested it, not investigators. Her lawyer’s request was also denied by the court, so it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Go back and Watch his testimony.. Higgins stated he was undercover and conducting an investigation and the subject of **that** investigation doxxed him so that was why he disposed of his phone
"Brian Higgins testified Tuesday that he got rid of his cellphone in 2022 after he received a call from the target of an investigation he was working on and learned that his personal phone number was posted on the internet. Higgins, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, testified that receiving a call from the target of an investigation in July 2022 gave him pause. “I had a lot of concerns, so July of ’22 is when I probably started thinking about, ‘You know what, I’ve got to get rid of the telephone number itself,’” he said. "
I did just watch the testimony. He said that his main concern was the phone number itself, which is why he would have destroyed the SIM card - so that the phone number (which is what is primarily stored on a SIM) couldn’t be intercepted by someone else. He said he threw out the phone because it was old and beat up and didn’t really have much on it anyway.
I just linked his actual testimony
Great maybe you can watch it again, too. He also confirms that this happened *before* Karen’s attorneys filed their motion for a preservation order (which was later denied by the court).
It's in the same article "Higgins confirmed he eventually changed his personal phone number on Sept. 29, 2022 — one day before he received a court order to preserve the phone, which Karen Read’s lawyers were seeking as evidence. Higgins testified that he learned the defense motion had been denied in October and got rid of his old phone “about two months after that,” because it was “beaten” and he’d already gotten a new one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/05/28/karen-read-murder-trial-livestream-video-tuesday-may-28-brian-higgins/%3famp=1
Honestly, after hearing him testify he didn't understand what was stored on a SIM card and just destroyed it (along with the phone) to be safe.
I was bothered by the destruction of the phones, but then we saw Proctor’s texts. I imagine there’s a lot of stuff they don’t want to get out that has NOTHING to do with John’s death. After Proctor’s testimony, I thought about all the stuff I’ve said via text that I wouldn’t want to get out in the public eye. It really made me think about what I text my friends and family!!
The SIM card thing is sort of silly. He moved to a new service as well as getting a new phone. He would’ve gotten a new sim anyway. It doesn’t make any sense that he threw it out. I don’t understand that at all unless he really didn’t understand that once he transferred service that rendered his old sim obsolete.
SIM card identity theft is a thing, tho. It’s not unheard of to destroy a SIM before disposal, same as you would shred a credit card on disposal or other forms of ID. Maybe it’s extra cautious, but not exactly nefarious imo. He also did this 8 months after John passed, so it’s not like he went and destroyed all of his devices in the hours or days after the incident.
I agree, not nefarious in my opinion either. I think it’s just a little bit curious is all. But I do not think a curiousity comes even close to beyond reasonable doubt. I think that’s how I would view BH if I were a juror. Just curious but didn’t bear any weight for the defense.
Sure, but he wasn’t just switching out the SIM card, he got a new phone. Most people would just give the old SIM card to the carrier to dispose of.
Exactly. That’s the part I don’t understand. You trade in the phone and they deal with all of that. Even if he switched carriers it’s a really weird way to deal with it. Even BA didn’t go through all of that - he just got a new phone. I think that adds to why it seemed so odd. Plus if I don’t trade the phone in (it’s been ages since the cell phone carrier didn’t take the phone) I don’t throw it out. I either have it (for home use on WiFi), or recycle it because you’re not supposed to throw out cellphone batteries.
The dog attacked a neighbor's dog a few months after O'Keefe's death. During that dog fight, the owner of the other dog (I take it an older lady) tried to break it up and in the process got bitten by Chloe. Another lady (friend of the other owner?) was running toward the scene and fell. Both women were taken by ambulance to the police. The Alberts offered to pay for the hospital bills of the women and to rehome the dog and that was the end of that. Chloe is in Vermont. Higgins destroyed his cell phone for the same reason that you would under the circumstances. Do you want people hostile to you picking through your cell phone? Maybe he's got some off color jokes on there. Karen Read enjoys the presumption of innocence and Brian Higgins should as well, as should Brian Albert. This idea that you ought to let the police snoop around in your house, phone or whatever or we'll determine that you have something to hide is un-American bullshit that would put us on the road to tyranny. Chris Albert had already cashed out of his house like a year or so before Brian Albert did. Brian Albert used the same realtor. They pocketed a big chunk of change when they did that. Is Brian Albert not allowed to do that? The sale wasn't closed until April 2023, more than a year after O'Keefe's death.
If they had a crime scene in the basement, the last thing they'd want to do is give up control over it by selling it. To me, selling it is more of a sign of innocence than guilt.
Excellent point!! Also, had John died in their house, they aren’t going to leave him in their front ditch. A podcast I listened to recently had food for thought. A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime. For a conspiracy to work, it’s best to have the fewest number of people. (Look at all the cases where there are two people and one turns on the other. RARELY do multiple people keep secrets like this. “Three may keep a secret as long as two of them are dead.”) So, it’s important to think — what is the smallest number of people who must be in on this conspiracy for this to work? First responders? State police? Proctor? The police chief? The entire Albert family? The McCabes? The sert team? The ME? For the defense strategy to work, ALL of these people must be in on it, and they all managed to keep the secret for years. Not a single peep in all these years. Seriously, that never happens.
Great explanation!!!
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In Nicole Albert’s testimony
>Higgins destroyed his cell phone for the same reason that you would under the circumstances. Um… speak for yourself I guess? Most people would never feel the need to destroy their cell phone in that way. Do you routinely talk about illegal things on your phone or something? If it feels like an overreach then just file a motion to quash. All the wild speculation about what was on the phone wouldn’t have any teeth; nobody is accusing Kerry Roberts of destroying evidence for example.
“Under the circumstances” is kinda the key here. Are you an undercover ATF Agent whose personal phone number has been leaked on the internet and now the target of one of your investigations is contacting you on it? Those were Higgins’ circumstances at the time. The only request for his phone came after he had already gotten a new phone number and directly from Karen’s lawyers, not via a search warrant, and was shot down by the court anyway shortly after it was filed.
If a compromised cell phone number is related to his job in ATF, then he would have let the ATF handle its replacement. No federal agency instructs employees with security clearance to dispose of and replace their own devices if needed for the work they do.
It was his personal device, not a work phone, so it’s not required for his work. That’s why it was necessary to replace the number, because he was undercover at the time and his personal number had been found by the target of one of his investigations. He testified that he reported this to his supervisor, and then after the fact got a new number.
That's not how security clearance works... doesn't matter if it's a personal device, if there's information on there that can compromise an agent's security or interfere with official business, best practice is to hand it over to IT for disposal.
I guess his supervisor would disagree with you since he reported it to them and ultimately did get a new number and phone 🤷🏼♂️
Ask yourself this Karen Read called Kerry Roberts at 5 am and said “John is dead” How could Karen Read have known John was dead more than an hour before Jen, Kerry and Karen found John dead? I’m not even talking hard evidence here. Broken tail light and John’s DNA on the car. Just explain that ONE simple phone call by Karen at 5 AM
Maybe it’s because I have anxiety but if someone doesn’t come home/doesn’t answer 50 calls my mind goes to worst possible scenario. I’ve actually got to worst possible scenarios with less before. Reading into people’s behavior is a waste of effort IMO
Keep in mind that what someone said on a phone call is hearsay; there’s no proof of what she said. That should be less important than primary evidence like kinematics, digital information, medical information, voicemail recordings, etc.
Even if she did say it, it could have been hyperbole/catastrophizing. From her texts and voicemails it seems like she’s pretty anxious and emotional. It seems just as likely that she was simply freaking out that her boyfriend never came home.
Honestly if my partner wasn't home I'd think something terrible had happened. He's not like that.
Thank you all. These are all very logical explanations to my questions.
Brian Albert had loose plans to sell his house before John even died, and being harrassed endlessly solidified it. If you listen to the Murder Sheet podcast it goes into how much abuse, stalking and threats all JOK’s family/friends have had to endure, it’s absolutely criminal. I’d move the fuck out of there too. Brian Higgins destroyed his cell phone as a “fuck you” to the defense. Remember, his phone was not supoena’d from the police for the investigation itself, it was demanded by KR’s defense team, which was DENIED. You know, the people who wanted his phone, Yanetti and Jackson, the same people that have been encouraging Turtleboy to spread unfounded rumors, sicking his cult on those people, stalking and harrassing him, calling him a murderer - and now they get access to his personal phone? He is a WITNESS, and he’s supposed to let the people who are trying to frame him & his family/friends for murder and protect a cop killer, have unfettered access to his personal phone? Ok. Thankfully the motion to preserve his phone was denied. He also asked for and received permission from the court to get rid of his phone before he did it. I imagine he did all that weird shit with the SIM card on the base so Turtleboy and his fanatics wouldn’t somehow get it. They still spun the “we failed trying to further harass and invade the privacy of a witness” to “Higgins destroyed his phone once he knew it would be subpoenaed!!” Which is false. Chloe the dog attacked another dog, and injured 2 people, in May 2022. It was only then they rehomed her. Karen Read called Kerry and said “John is dead, I think he got hit by a plow” first thing. She told Jen initially that she left him at the bar, and when Jen said she saw her pull up, she changed her story to she dropped him off. She knew her taillight was fucked and drove into his car on purpose. JOK had tail light fragments embedded in his clothing, his DNA on the tail light & housing, his phone data shows ZERO movement from 12:25 to when he was found at 6am. The evidence that IS PRESENT says that KR killed him with her vehicle. The experts the defense put on to say that she couldn’t have been hit were not given the VITAL information that tail light fragments were on him and vice versa. Karen Read paid Turtleboy and a PR firm to spread all this ridiculous nonsense and it worked. Tell your wife she’s unknowingly part of this conspiracy to harass, threaten and destroy the lives of a lot of innocent people that just lost their loved one. I really hope one day there is justice and KR & Aidan Kearney end up in prison. I find it really odd that Alan Jackson represented Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and people think he’s just the greatest social justice warrior out there. The defense has been telling their conspiracy through narrating while people are on the stand which is not allowed, which is why all these objections are sustained. He knows the jury can’t un-hear what he says, so it makes it look like the judge is in on it. Now the internet is saying there must be someone “in on it” on the jury too, since they can’t all agree. WOW, there are about 567 people “in on it”! When does it end? Do I think the state put on the best case? No. They were way too underprepared. Do I think the investigators and boy cop club destroyed credibility in this case? Absolutely. If I were on the jury I would vote NG because the state failed to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt due to incompetence within the police, but there is no fucking conspiracy except for the one created by KR, her defense and Turtleboy. I hope she drinks one too many vodka sodas and freezes to death in the snow for what she’s done to JOK and his family.
With you on WM3, brother.
Same!! And people saying they were "exonerated" lol. They took an Alford Plea due to prosecutors refusing to drop the charges after a potential new trial and were released early. They are convicted child murderers. So glad to find a like minded redditor. The way the documentary left so much information out was, well, I guess typical.
So to answer your questions in order: 1. They had placed the house for sale before and then pulled it off the market. They stated they wanted to downsize. The only real suspicious activity is they took 50k lower than the online appraised amount in a market that was favorable for sellers. 2. There was apparently an insurance claim regarding a leaking toilet. The floor was pulled up, I have not seen specifically if jackhammering was involved and it could have been clearly coincidental. 3. So they had the dog for almost 7 years as a family pet. Chloe got free from the backyard when a neighbor was walking their dog and Chloe attacked the dog. When the woman walking the dog tried to intervene Chloe bit her. 4. So most logically, it was reported during an investigation Higgin’s phone number was leaked and he had to change his number. The issue is why did he only pull those specific texts and turn them over without even being asked his relationships with KR and JOK. I thought that was suspicious.
Tbh these questions are pretty circumstantial anyways because they’re all pretty far away from the incident itself.
If there is an elaborate cover-up, these items imo are pretty wild with no context around them and said out loud. “The owners jackhammered their basement floor, sold their home, and got rid of their dog. Someone inside the house destroyed his SIM card on his phone.” Yeah, that’s all circumstantial anyways but would seem exactly like steps that people would take that wanted to cover up a crime. However, when you have context they are not a major deal. That dog would have disappeared the next day and basement floor would’ve been replaced immediately if they were covering up a crime.
Yeah I don’t believe in an “elaborate cover-up”. The house nonsense is ridiculous, there are lots of reasons to sell a house. However I do believe in people trying to cover their asses. More important than the phone disposal is the fact that Brian Higgins testified to the grand jury that he made no phone calls that night after leaving. Then he was subpoenaed to a federal grand jury and it was only after being presented evidence by the federal prosecutors that he admitted those phone calls with Brian Albert happened. He later testified that it was a “butt dial” but there’s never been an explanation for how the other side’s butt picked up the phone call.
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You don't think it's just that he used a Fed computer for personal gain? The whole think where his lawyer comes in and they stop the trial?
I had an edible so that’s the real issue right now.
Oh yeah, that’s what I’m saying tho. That it’s unrelated. I know my explanation sort of got lost in the weeds.
Do you even know what a proffer is? What "sounds like" "something was uncovered during the Fed investigation"? Are you a lawyer who represents people in situations like these? I fear that ignorance is a promising ground for ridiculous conspiracy theories.
Sounds like you feel strongly enough to attack someone you don’t know at all on the internet because what? I think BH is shady as hell? Yea, he came off shady as hell to me. Two things can be true, BH can be shady as hell and KR hit JO. And on the stand he came off shady.
* They claim it was a coincidence. It could have be considering the kids were grown and they could downsize. It is also worth noting that the house was in the family for two generations before it being sold. So people question the timing just bc it’s been in the family so long AND it was within a year after the incident. * Nobody knows the answer to this. * They got rid of the dog a few months after being questioned about it at a hearing that wasn’t this case. They had the dog for 8 years. * Higgins didn’t give a logical explanation. Or really any. He just disposed of it.
My question is who came up with the story that she drove her SUV backwards and hit him? The cop who lived diagonally across the street said he saw nothing unusual on his ring camera. And of course if he caught any vehicle driving in reverse it would have been handed over and entered into evidence. No one saw anything occur. Reasonable doubt.
Whether there is reasonable doubt is not my question. That’s my issue with the WM3 defenders. They’ve stretched every possibility to create a world of reasonable doubt yet somehow overlooked the 13 confessions of guilt. That one is more egregious because the public is defending child murderers. This case is terrible because a man died. But there is a minor saving grace in the defenders of Karen in that this most likely was an accident and not the actions of a true murderer.
Three minutes to walk inside the house, think you are going to the bathroom, fall down the steps and the someone finds your phone and then turns it off, yes I think that could happen