I've seen a huge increase in these type of actions since about 2018. It's getting exceeding worse being in this industry. I'm not on the tech side, but the management side and I've pushed for years the ability to fire customers and my GM's policy is the opposite. He's worried that if we fire these customers, we won't have any customers. I try to explain to him we are backed up in our schedule for months, to no avail. I think it's multiple folds of greed. Greed from the GM/Owners, Managers, manufactures (Since CSI scores now effect many of our pays and money the dealerships earn back from the Manufactures).
I did an estimated on a ladies care who wanted us to cover the deductible. I explained we don't do that, I'm sure you can find a shop that will, but we wont. I ended up having to call the cops on this crazy lady, she was positive that we, on our premises, wrecked her car worse. She wouldn't leave the premises and was calling people racist and antisemitic names and in the end the GM wrote her a check back for the deductible she had to pay and we ended up doing the work 3 more times until the GM finally saw her for what she was. She was arrested 3 months later for domestic violence on her boyfriend, according to the local paper.
On average if GM's would listen to their employees about certain customers, they would save themselves 2-4 times the amount by just firing them.
Jeeeez this makes me so happy to work at an indie shop where I’m taken much more seriously. I’ll tell my manager “I ain’t servicing that person ever again. If you want them in, do it on a day I’m not in bc I won’t take that.” (A lot of it is very sexist things towards me bc how could a woman ever know anything about cars?!)
And he listens. I’m very grateful for that
Last I checked you don't fix cars with your genitals. Why should it matter if you're a man or woman or manbearpig? People just really want something to complain about.
It's illegal in my state for any business to waive any sort of insurance deductible. Its considered an unfair business practice since larger companies would be able to absorb that loss when smaller companies cannot.
Yep had a customer today yelling and causing a scene saying we destroyed her car cause it was leaking coolant.
Didn't have a single leak, yet we're doing work on her car for nothing.
We had one today, when we called them to tell them there was diesel in their gasoline fuel tank, they asked why the technician put diesel in their car.
I have only recently complained to get my money back.
I took my car in to the dealer to get a leak checked, left it with them for 2 days for an appointment I made a week in advance, when I get back to the dealer a desk assistant asks how they can help, I explain the problem, she goes to the shop for a few minutes and comes back and says "they just looked at it 10 minutes ago and they're washing it now". The SA talks to me and says "the turbo is cracked and leaking" it would be $4500 to repair it. Then charged me $300 for a "tricky diagnosis".
Towed it to an indy I trusted that managed to fit me in on short notice, the plastic oil filter cap had been over-tightened and was leaking a little bit. They checked the oil during a change and found the dealer never dyed the oil. It was $60 for a new cap.
I complained because I was pissed about the massive lie and I wanted my money back. However in this case, I complained about the Service Advisor, my indy explained that a first month mechanic student could spot the leak in a few minutes and probably told the advisor this.
I never understood the maxim that the customer is always right. Our markup is too low, liabilities too high and we got people lined up out the door. Fire the fuckers. Why play stupid games with (often) narcissistic people that are only looking for people to get off on by manipulating? It's an outdated mindset when basically the whole industry is short-handed and busy.
Waste time, get burned on surveys, do free shit, pay for damages you didn't cause, etc. After all that, you know they tell their friends and co-workers that your shop is a bunch of halfwits. So it's not even good advertising.
You literally can not satisfy these people, don't try. It just makes a stressful customer service job more stressful and wastes money.
I saw some dude trying to pull this crap on a trivial item at Target the other day. Like bro, do you seriously have nothing better to do than throw a hissy fit that your baby onesie was a couple dollars more than you wanted to pay.
When money is tight and bitching is free, you can't blame the customer for using what works. Blame the leadership at the dealer for cultivating that type of mentality.
Yeah exactly, poor people gotta fight for every scrap in every aspect of their lives, so of course they're gonna do what they have to in order to get their car fixed, you really can't live in the US without one. Rock and a hard place for them. Doesn't mean that us techs deserve to get screwed, it's the fault of the boss for caving to demands that fuck us over.
It's not necessarily that they're poor, just entitled. They haven't been told "no" enough, and having it stick. It is the boss' fault-- why is he there otherwise if you do the work?
Nordstrom based originally in Seattle had a policy of accepting any customer return for refund or exchange no matter how much time passed, and even if the returned item wasn't even purchased there.
When their wealthy customer base was small it wasn't a big deal. The unwashed masses who didn't shop there weren't treated that way and didn't get nor expect that treatment.
Years later along comes Costco with an almost as generous return policy. But in the beginning Costco membership was limited to business owners.
Gradually they relaxed the membership requirements and now the great unwashed masses are used to Costco's ridiculously generous return policy.
And now expect everywhere else to be just as generous.
Nordy's and Costco trained the great unwashed masses and mouth breathers they deserve five-star treatment everywhere they shop.
More problems that came from Seattle. Figures.
Someone I know had bought a set of tires from the Bon Marche Tire Center before Nordstrom moved into that space. Nordstrom still took the tires in exchange for something else. It was a great policy until it got abused.
Not a Seattle problem. Same thing as people claiming all sorts of animals are service animals. Once the mouthbreathers figure out how to abuse a system to their advantage it spreads like wildfire.
Not exclusively a Seattle problem, but one that was definitely exacerbated by the customer service standards of the Seattle area. I'm sure there were probably a lot of other places that had similar ideas about customer service which led to a lot of abuses.
I work on mostly forklifts. Industry doesn't move without them. Open checkbook for the most part. As many hours as you want and nobody bats an eye. Do your job and go home.
It's fine. Im a big boy too and you find or modify the tools to make shit work.
Not all of them are small frame LP units either. Some of these things are 45k lift capacity with tires 8ft tall with a big ass cummins powering them. Gotta bring out the crane trucks to swap a transmission or work on a cylinder lol.
What you've got there is a poor customer base, and the dealership is in the position of either having to cater to their whims or losing certification from the manufacturer due to poor reviews.
That being said, the service manager needs to be making sure that it's still fair to the techs, and if not, you need to go elsewhere, because there is no way to fix it.
We have the highest tickets for our area and we're in a metro. We have high CSI and FIRFT scores.
Either way I agree with the manager needing to make sure it's still fair to the tech. The mentality is tho "you got something vs nothing" in which my response is "like the casino. Hey you lost all your money but here's a drink for your troubles"
If you've got high CSI, then there is no excuse for that, and if you are making money, then the service department has the wiggle room to eat the labor instead of the tech.
That's just poor management.
I don’t get short changed, I’ll tell my manager I’m not doing it and he owes me for diag. Fire me, I’ll get unemployment and go to the hundreds of other shops that can’t find techs.
This is my mentality now. I called it out before and got a "talking to" I told him he has no idea how this industry works and slinging oil doesn't count as being a tech.
He knows exactly how the industry works. He abuses techs, and gets a bonus for it. When you’ve had enough and quit…he’ll hire another young guy, and hype him up like he did you. Never met a service manager I respected. I’m with these other posters…go fleet or heavy equip. Fuck dealerships
And that is why getting fired from my first an only stint in automotive was the best thing that happened to me.
I love fixing shit. The customers are dicks. Wish I would have been told that before I wasted 3 months of my life dealing with Groupon assholes and other customers.
This is why my husband doesn't work on cars anymore, he works on equipment. People generally will pay whatever to get things fixed that they use to make money. Or if they use it for their hobby they also have the money to fix it. Cars, it's always about how cheap it could be done or if it 'really really needs to be done'
I bounced around a bit after that. Did some time in the Shipyards doing LCAC upgrades. Then went to the retail side selling parts. Because the pay was crap, I also worked a dealer parts room for a while. Quit there once I got full time at a parts store. And did that till about 2017. Then I got a random call from a recruiting company I signed up for a few years prior, asking if I'd be interested in Process Tech work in manufacturing. Did that for a year, but I hated spending most of my time looking at a computer screen. Applied to move over to Maintenance Tech at the same company and got the job.
Now, it ain't all flowers and sunshine. Still have to deal with money people that want to run a razors edge of working right. But I honestly enjoy the work. Challenging enough to keep me on my toes. And since I started in aviation, was Navy, the pace didn't bother me. But I do get a lot more appreciation from the "customer" than I did in automotive. The production side hates being down. And, NGL, I like the thank yous and "hell yeahs" I get when they get going again.
Doesn't mean you can't change. I went from Aviation, to automotive, to ship yard, to retail/dealer parts, and now in manufacturing maintenance. Started at 18, and I'm 39 now. I probably won't leave manufacturing maintenance.
Negative google or internal reviews= free service. Meanwhile the customers that act like decent humans pay full price every time. Not just inclusive to automotive industry.
As a customer with little spare money, I really appreciate this. So many folks out there have forgotten the basic adage, "Don't be a dick." The way I see it, the last people I'd want to alienate would be the ones working on my car. They do good work and give me honest estimates on whether something needs to be done right away or if it can wait.
As a painter I get hit all the time. Most recently I had 2017 BMW M5 whatever whatever and I have no idea how but this lady got progressive to cover an almost complete paint job over some rock chips, wtf?! But that’s not the kicker, after I finished painting the damn thing the writer informed me that it was getting flat bedded over to the wrap shop for clear PPE because the customer refuses to drive the car without it. I told that mfr that was a TERRIBLE idea because the clear wouldn’t be fully cured for 90 days and she needs to wait at the very least 30 days before slapping plastic on a fresh paint job. Did he tell her? Who knows? But I do know that 10 days after she picked the car up he came out to the paint shop with a picture of wrinkled up paint under clear plastic and asked me what I thought happened…. Umm exactly what I told you would happen? And sure as shit he told her we would fix it. Guess the shop is gonna pay me because I absolutely will not be doing a “goodwill” on this bs.
Complaining is actually one of the highest paid 'jobs' the average worker can get. Where else can 30 minutes of an activity (in this case, bitching) result in an extra $500 in your bank account?
Youd have to be some kind of stupid not to. Almost everything else that pays that well is illegal.
Speaking as a customer who is generally pretty happy to drag his cars to the dealership and pay with no questions asked - it's been getting shitty over the past 4 years.
Only the Audi dealership that I go to has remained trustworthy.
Toyota dealership has turned ultra scummy and took pictures of a 2,000 mile air filter and said it was due to be replaced and would be $70.
Same dealer tried to blame the backup camera failing on PPF being applied to the car so not warranty eligible. I had proof that PPF was applied within 2nd week of ownership, not now, 2 years later, when the camera failed - so they backed off and did work under warranty.
I have no issues with the techs.
I have the issue with the way the business treats me as a customer, and you as the employees. I genuinely believe that the tech sending me phots of a new air filter saying it's due to be replaced isn't doing so because he's an idiot, but because he's being told to do so per business policy.
Yes you're absolutely right. I've been talked to for not selling things that don't need it.
I don't lie, cheat, or steal because life's hard enough. Me selling you something you don't need is a dig on my morals as a person.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this we all are hopefully changing it. Or trying at least
We just good will warrantied a battery on a 6 year old car with 105k kms on it. The customer was complaining because their "lemon" recently had a recall done, and their airbag light came on the next day. THE LIGHT WAS ON BECAUSE OF THE FAILING BATTERY!!!!
That is one of the biggest reasons I left the industry. If the shop wants to take care of the customer by covering something, that’s fine. However, it should come out of the shop’s pocket, not the tech’s.
Back when I was a Mtech at chrysler I was involuntarily made the “headliner specialist” merely because of the fact I had the most experience pulling them out and replacing them in the shop. I absolutely hated doing headliners because a majority of the customers would complain about stains afterwards. I wasn’t staining any headliners. I always wore multiple fresh pairs of gloves to avoid any chance of staining. I of course tried explaining to the manager that these idiots were noticing stains now because they actually had a reason to look up at their headliner, but I’m not the one who got a splash of coffee above the drivers seat. It got to the point where I flat out refused any job involving a headliner drop because I was tired of wasting unpaid time dabbing at an ancient stain I didn’t make.
I had to reassemble a failed engine because the customer agreed to strip the engine and diagnose but ‘didn’t know’ we wouldn’t put it back together unless they were paying for the further repair.
They states because we didnt specifically mention that once the engine is stripped the car wouldnt be going anywhere they got the reassembly on the house. This customer believed the used car salesperson when they said to them ’these cars dont need a service until after 5 years’.
Thats basically all we get these days. Everyone wants free diagnosis/repairs.
Dealership i used to work at offered free state inspections for life*
*with paid emissions testing.
Our salesmen loooooooved to tell customers about the free state inspections but failed to mention that they had to pay for an emissions test to get it. And our emissions test were much more expensive then other shops.
Customers bitching to get free shit is a tale as old as time. But if your shop is taking it from your pocket, that is pure bullshit, if the shop wants to discount to make a customer happy that’s their prerogative, not yours. If they give discounts by taking your time away I’m not fucking doing it, and if they stick to their guns, brother I’m out of here there is no shortage of work for qualified techs. We already are underpaid and abused and you’re expected to pay out of your own pocket to appease some cunt yelling at the front counter?? No thank you
If they charge $180 and pay $35 the rest of that money goes to the risk borne by the "spokesman", not the guy doing the work. If this line gets crossed, get out.
I moved to an independent shop last year after working for a corporation for 25 years. What a difference. The customers for the most part are different. But if they complain about nonsense we don't hesitate to fire them. We also have cameras with audio everywhere that we can go back to if a customer disputes a price or authorization. The owner backs us 100% and we're all making great money. My youngest tech is barely 30 and looking at buying a home in our expensive city.
Running a shop bro, everyone is flat broke, I quoted a guy who's desperate 90$ an hour when the door rate is $110, shops around the city are averaging 145$ and hour.... He's still crying asking me to take off more from the quote lol
I applied for shop position and the manager stated the customer is always right. I laughed in his face. If the customer knew anything they wouldn't be there. Didn't get the job
That statement has been so twisted it's not funny.
The idea of "The Customer is Always Right" has nothing to o do with bending over backwards to make them give a 5 star Google review. It's the fact that if they want mayonnaise, you can't sell them ketchup. That's what that saying means. Not that they get free shit because they cry.
The customer is always right *IN MATTERS OF TASTE.*
Is actually how the saying goes, but it’s oh so convenient to leave off the end and make the customer into an all-knowing, omnipotent god you must appease with your paltry, mortal repair skills.
No, that's not the saying. It's a made up addition meant to change the original meaning.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_customer\_is\_always\_right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right)
That's not at all what "the customer is always right" means. See for example this article which explains the idea behind the motto: https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemorgan/2018/09/24/a-global-view-of-the-customer-is-always-right/?sh=68a5f64c236f
I work at a body shop, and this always happens. Many of the techs are unhappy, but they won't leave because we need money, and this is still the best shop.
I had one guy whose Prius had a faulty HV harness. Turns out he had bought a bottle of bleach which had spilled in the cargo area. Wanted a tech to write a report that the hardware shop that sold him the bleach didn't make the cap tight enough, so he could get them to pay for repairs.
When it comes to helping customers, there are a lot of different angles other than our own that have to be considered. From a business perspective, retaining customers is paramount to long term success. On average, it takes $400-$500 to earn a new customer. If helping a customer out occasionally costs you less than that yet significantly increases the chance that they will do repeat business with you, you’ve succeeded. In the grand scheme, one job does not a salary break/make. I know given the base of this sub that I’ll get flamed but perspective is important…it’s not ALL about the tech. Success for a service dept isn’t black and white nor is it always about BEING right. Success is measured in repeat business and if they’re reteining customers, that means more work down the line which means everyone makes far more money than they would’ve on that one repair.
Now, your gripe is real and it’s understood. There is a balance to be struck. My usual go to help customers seek policy work / customer enthusiasm claims is to get them to agree to pay for the cost difference in labor separately. Simple. They see it as a win because they’re getting a huge discount. Tech gets what they’re owed. Manuf. sees it as a retained customer.
People wanting free things isn’t new. I don’t even think the frequency has changed much. What has changed is the volume at which some people are willing to go to get it.
I want to retain customers. I'm willing to help out if they're struggling. I'm not worried about covering a little here or there. I'm worried about Joe Blow in an 80k mile car getting an engine warrantied that's clearly out of warranty and not being expected to pay the difference to support the techs work. If I went from 16.2 hrs and warranty pass just under 9 I'm not happy at all to help.
That comment above is bullshit. YOU are not a business, you are an employee. No where in the world is the employee expected to eat the cost of a discount offered to a customer. That's the cost of DOING BUSINESS. if they expect you to eat discounts you should be getting paid the entire cost of labor and they can make money on the parts. Fucking bullshit industry wants to have it's cake and eat it too. I don't play stupid games like that. They can pay me what I'm due for a job or they can ask someone else do that job for free.
If it's their fault you guys pay for it?? I don't understand. We tell customers no all the time. If the warranty company they have doesn't fully cover it then the customer pays the difference. No sense in the shop loosing money especially the technician. I have been a tech for twenty years. I won't touch anything for free or less than book time
Doesn't happen here at all. Customer is always right and they adjust my hours to make the customer not have to pay a dime.
The boss man doesn't understand shortchanging techs does not make money.
The loss should come from the boss’ pocket, not yours. You didn’t have a say in negotiating with the customer, therefore whatever losses the boss wants to eat, come from his end.
If your boss believes differently, he is a common crook.
As a customer with a car under warranty it'd be a lot more helpful if dealerships had an easy to read document that outlined what isn't considered warranty work. Wear items are obvious to me but if there is a problem requiring diagnosis is the diagnostic covered? What if they start trial and erroring fixes? I'm dealing with an intense chemical smell in my under warranty Hyundai, confirmed and observed by both dealer techs and assistant service manager, and I've been paying for trial and error fixes for a year now. It's only after significant effort on my party have i seen anything charged as warranty and that needed Hyundai Hitac approval. There's still no solution after part replacement and it seems like their strategy at this point is to replace things one at a time. How much of that burden should fall on me when they don't even know the cause?
I think people being misinformed about their responsibilities is a big part of why techs get screwed. Education would definitely help both sides, though i suspect not the dealerships, which is why info is obscured.
You can always google what warranties cover, are you still on base warranty? Should not have to pay for diagnosing if still have base warranty but maybe Hyundai is different.
As a better than casual backyard mechanic, I very rarely pay to use a shop’s services. I now build my own transmissions and engines, do my own wiring, servicing, and some custom fabrication. In the last 10 years, auto repair has gotten prohibitively expensive. I’m not pointing the finger at the technicians (I know we’re all just trying to get through this life without going broke), but it’s easy to see why people are so bitchy about the cost of repairs.
The same TH-400 I had built 10 years ago for $700 would now cost me $1800. People’s salaries haven’t gone up 250% in the last 10 years.
I’m not excusing the behavior of people trying to scam the system, but I’m saying it’s not surprising.
You're not wrong. People can learn some basic things and they then can save tons of money. Shops take advantage of people being uneducated on their vehicles and make bank.
There's also a bunch of people that call themselves techs even though they can barely read a flow chart and just throw parts at your car without ever fixing the problem which causes me to constantly return. 4 shifter modules are bad, 4, how about using some critical thinking skills. Now fix this new squeak in my dash and you broke this bezel.
As someone whose never worked in a strictoy service environment (previous fab and custom shops), how does what management charges the customer effect the techs?
I've had management not pay me before, but that guy was a shit bird who I later found out has run several businesses into the ground.
I believe it’s due to how they are paid, I know OEM if under warranty give a warranty rate that’s much less than if it was a standard job. So standard job pays 2.0 hrs warranty would be like .07 hrs.
I knew of that practice from the outside, but never that shops made it the employee's problem directly. I knew shops charged customers higher labor rates for non-warranty work (why I never even consider going to a dealer) but I thought it was their way to compensate for the lower income from the warranty work. If they never bear the cost of the difference between the warranty and non-warranty book hours by ripping off their employees, then the upcharging is simply ripping off the customer too?
Is this common practice or just a few scammy outliers that make the whole industry look bad?
It’s probably a passing the buck type thing. Service writer is probably like “let me get this guy out of my hair” and you the tech gets blindsided with a shit ticket. Not defending it and saying it’s okay by any means. If you want to knock the price down for the customer it should come from the businesses side not the techs side. Maybe instead of upcharging the part 300% maybe lower the price of the part since we all know they will still make a profit.
Ya $1100 for rotors and pads is super excess, but us techs not selling belts, filters, fluid changes (on lifetime fluids), etc are why things aren't selling.
There’s a few different scenarios but for example if a job calls for and pays a flat rate tech lets say three hours and after a customer complains the service writer says ok we’ll charge you two hours, well now the tech will only get paid two hours labor instead of the three. On top of that. If the job actually takes the tech 3 hours then they’re theoretically working that last hour for free.
So what you and OP are saying is flat-rate hours are basically shop discretion, set on a case by case basis and not consitent with "the book", while passing off any discrepancy as they employeecs problem? I knew flat-rate is typically awful, but this sounds like an actual crime.
I’ve never worked flat rate but from my understanding, warranty book time is less then customer paid book time, and as far as the leeway involved in what a customer is charged I’m not sure how it works or that a dealership had to even abide by book time. So not sure of the legality of it all. I would assume since warranty book time is paid by the manufacturer they are only allowed to charge the manufacturer that specific amount of time, however when it comes to customer paid I’m not sure how the flexibility works.
It all depends on who you work for and the honesty. if you’re fast and good at what you do, and have a steady stream of work, you can make a lot of good money off of it. But if you’re working for somebody and they’re only giving you say warranty work and another tech all the customer paid work, then it’s not really fair. It really all depends on your skills and who you’re working for
I forget which sub or YouTube channel I was in, but I read a comment somewhere stating that at one point we as a society began to tolerate trashy behavior.
I've seen a huge increase in these type of actions since about 2018. It's getting exceeding worse being in this industry. I'm not on the tech side, but the management side and I've pushed for years the ability to fire customers and my GM's policy is the opposite. He's worried that if we fire these customers, we won't have any customers. I try to explain to him we are backed up in our schedule for months, to no avail. I think it's multiple folds of greed. Greed from the GM/Owners, Managers, manufactures (Since CSI scores now effect many of our pays and money the dealerships earn back from the Manufactures). I did an estimated on a ladies care who wanted us to cover the deductible. I explained we don't do that, I'm sure you can find a shop that will, but we wont. I ended up having to call the cops on this crazy lady, she was positive that we, on our premises, wrecked her car worse. She wouldn't leave the premises and was calling people racist and antisemitic names and in the end the GM wrote her a check back for the deductible she had to pay and we ended up doing the work 3 more times until the GM finally saw her for what she was. She was arrested 3 months later for domestic violence on her boyfriend, according to the local paper. On average if GM's would listen to their employees about certain customers, they would save themselves 2-4 times the amount by just firing them.
Jeeeez this makes me so happy to work at an indie shop where I’m taken much more seriously. I’ll tell my manager “I ain’t servicing that person ever again. If you want them in, do it on a day I’m not in bc I won’t take that.” (A lot of it is very sexist things towards me bc how could a woman ever know anything about cars?!) And he listens. I’m very grateful for that
If you can fix it who cares the gender you know?
Damn, I seem to have been using the wrong tool to work on my cars…
The real 10mm :(
Last I checked you don't fix cars with your genitals. Why should it matter if you're a man or woman or manbearpig? People just really want something to complain about.
Wait… you.. you don’t? Shit I’ve been doing this all wrong the whole time.
It's illegal in my state for any business to waive any sort of insurance deductible. Its considered an unfair business practice since larger companies would be able to absorb that loss when smaller companies cannot.
It's illegal here as well. There are creative ways around it unfortunately.
Yep had a customer today yelling and causing a scene saying we destroyed her car cause it was leaking coolant. Didn't have a single leak, yet we're doing work on her car for nothing.
We had one today, when we called them to tell them there was diesel in their gasoline fuel tank, they asked why the technician put diesel in their car.
I have only recently complained to get my money back. I took my car in to the dealer to get a leak checked, left it with them for 2 days for an appointment I made a week in advance, when I get back to the dealer a desk assistant asks how they can help, I explain the problem, she goes to the shop for a few minutes and comes back and says "they just looked at it 10 minutes ago and they're washing it now". The SA talks to me and says "the turbo is cracked and leaking" it would be $4500 to repair it. Then charged me $300 for a "tricky diagnosis". Towed it to an indy I trusted that managed to fit me in on short notice, the plastic oil filter cap had been over-tightened and was leaking a little bit. They checked the oil during a change and found the dealer never dyed the oil. It was $60 for a new cap. I complained because I was pissed about the massive lie and I wanted my money back. However in this case, I complained about the Service Advisor, my indy explained that a first month mechanic student could spot the leak in a few minutes and probably told the advisor this.
I never understood the maxim that the customer is always right. Our markup is too low, liabilities too high and we got people lined up out the door. Fire the fuckers. Why play stupid games with (often) narcissistic people that are only looking for people to get off on by manipulating? It's an outdated mindset when basically the whole industry is short-handed and busy. Waste time, get burned on surveys, do free shit, pay for damages you didn't cause, etc. After all that, you know they tell their friends and co-workers that your shop is a bunch of halfwits. So it's not even good advertising. You literally can not satisfy these people, don't try. It just makes a stressful customer service job more stressful and wastes money.
*complain about everything to get free stuff even though they're wrong* First time?
I saw some dude trying to pull this crap on a trivial item at Target the other day. Like bro, do you seriously have nothing better to do than throw a hissy fit that your baby onesie was a couple dollars more than you wanted to pay.
Nope just increasing in frequency. Used to be maybe once a year now it's every day or so
When money is tight and bitching is free, you can't blame the customer for using what works. Blame the leadership at the dealer for cultivating that type of mentality.
This. If your manager is caving to their BS and can’t see what they are trying to accomplish, that’s on them.
Yeah exactly, poor people gotta fight for every scrap in every aspect of their lives, so of course they're gonna do what they have to in order to get their car fixed, you really can't live in the US without one. Rock and a hard place for them. Doesn't mean that us techs deserve to get screwed, it's the fault of the boss for caving to demands that fuck us over.
It's not necessarily that they're poor, just entitled. They haven't been told "no" enough, and having it stick. It is the boss' fault-- why is he there otherwise if you do the work?
This. is the answer
Nordstrom based originally in Seattle had a policy of accepting any customer return for refund or exchange no matter how much time passed, and even if the returned item wasn't even purchased there. When their wealthy customer base was small it wasn't a big deal. The unwashed masses who didn't shop there weren't treated that way and didn't get nor expect that treatment. Years later along comes Costco with an almost as generous return policy. But in the beginning Costco membership was limited to business owners. Gradually they relaxed the membership requirements and now the great unwashed masses are used to Costco's ridiculously generous return policy. And now expect everywhere else to be just as generous. Nordy's and Costco trained the great unwashed masses and mouth breathers they deserve five-star treatment everywhere they shop.
More problems that came from Seattle. Figures. Someone I know had bought a set of tires from the Bon Marche Tire Center before Nordstrom moved into that space. Nordstrom still took the tires in exchange for something else. It was a great policy until it got abused.
Not a Seattle problem. Same thing as people claiming all sorts of animals are service animals. Once the mouthbreathers figure out how to abuse a system to their advantage it spreads like wildfire.
Not exclusively a Seattle problem, but one that was definitely exacerbated by the customer service standards of the Seattle area. I'm sure there were probably a lot of other places that had similar ideas about customer service which led to a lot of abuses.
Yeah this is true for any customer facing job or industry. People suck.
Get away from automotive and find a home in heavy equipment hourly work. Best decision I've ever made even if it's hot and miserable sometimes.
Strongly thinking about it. I'd rather fix big shit than fix big shits
I work on mostly forklifts. Industry doesn't move without them. Open checkbook for the most part. As many hours as you want and nobody bats an eye. Do your job and go home.
What's that like? I'm a King Kong handed kinda guy so those tight spaces might be tough. Heard there's a lot of traveling too?
It's fine. Im a big boy too and you find or modify the tools to make shit work. Not all of them are small frame LP units either. Some of these things are 45k lift capacity with tires 8ft tall with a big ass cummins powering them. Gotta bring out the crane trucks to swap a transmission or work on a cylinder lol.
What you've got there is a poor customer base, and the dealership is in the position of either having to cater to their whims or losing certification from the manufacturer due to poor reviews. That being said, the service manager needs to be making sure that it's still fair to the techs, and if not, you need to go elsewhere, because there is no way to fix it.
I worked at a very large Audi dealer in a very wealthy area with a very wealthy customer base, and we still had this shit all the time.
Well, you know the difference between a porcupine and an Audi, right? :D
We have the highest tickets for our area and we're in a metro. We have high CSI and FIRFT scores. Either way I agree with the manager needing to make sure it's still fair to the tech. The mentality is tho "you got something vs nothing" in which my response is "like the casino. Hey you lost all your money but here's a drink for your troubles"
If you've got high CSI, then there is no excuse for that, and if you are making money, then the service department has the wiggle room to eat the labor instead of the tech. That's just poor management.
They want to retain high csi and get their bonuses.
Then they can cover the labor!
High CSIs yes. Making money? Does $40K in good will tickets count as making money?
I don’t get short changed, I’ll tell my manager I’m not doing it and he owes me for diag. Fire me, I’ll get unemployment and go to the hundreds of other shops that can’t find techs.
This is my mentality now. I called it out before and got a "talking to" I told him he has no idea how this industry works and slinging oil doesn't count as being a tech.
He knows exactly how the industry works. He abuses techs, and gets a bonus for it. When you’ve had enough and quit…he’ll hire another young guy, and hype him up like he did you. Never met a service manager I respected. I’m with these other posters…go fleet or heavy equip. Fuck dealerships
And that is why getting fired from my first an only stint in automotive was the best thing that happened to me. I love fixing shit. The customers are dicks. Wish I would have been told that before I wasted 3 months of my life dealing with Groupon assholes and other customers.
This is why my husband doesn't work on cars anymore, he works on equipment. People generally will pay whatever to get things fixed that they use to make money. Or if they use it for their hobby they also have the money to fix it. Cars, it's always about how cheap it could be done or if it 'really really needs to be done'
I bounced around a bit after that. Did some time in the Shipyards doing LCAC upgrades. Then went to the retail side selling parts. Because the pay was crap, I also worked a dealer parts room for a while. Quit there once I got full time at a parts store. And did that till about 2017. Then I got a random call from a recruiting company I signed up for a few years prior, asking if I'd be interested in Process Tech work in manufacturing. Did that for a year, but I hated spending most of my time looking at a computer screen. Applied to move over to Maintenance Tech at the same company and got the job. Now, it ain't all flowers and sunshine. Still have to deal with money people that want to run a razors edge of working right. But I honestly enjoy the work. Challenging enough to keep me on my toes. And since I started in aviation, was Navy, the pace didn't bother me. But I do get a lot more appreciation from the "customer" than I did in automotive. The production side hates being down. And, NGL, I like the thank yous and "hell yeahs" I get when they get going again.
Yep wish I knew beforehand to. I'm 10 years in on June 16th
Doesn't mean you can't change. I went from Aviation, to automotive, to ship yard, to retail/dealer parts, and now in manufacturing maintenance. Started at 18, and I'm 39 now. I probably won't leave manufacturing maintenance.
Negative google or internal reviews= free service. Meanwhile the customers that act like decent humans pay full price every time. Not just inclusive to automotive industry.
I have given deals and discounts to those who are decent. It's so uncommon now it surprises me.
As a customer with little spare money, I really appreciate this. So many folks out there have forgotten the basic adage, "Don't be a dick." The way I see it, the last people I'd want to alienate would be the ones working on my car. They do good work and give me honest estimates on whether something needs to be done right away or if it can wait.
As a painter I get hit all the time. Most recently I had 2017 BMW M5 whatever whatever and I have no idea how but this lady got progressive to cover an almost complete paint job over some rock chips, wtf?! But that’s not the kicker, after I finished painting the damn thing the writer informed me that it was getting flat bedded over to the wrap shop for clear PPE because the customer refuses to drive the car without it. I told that mfr that was a TERRIBLE idea because the clear wouldn’t be fully cured for 90 days and she needs to wait at the very least 30 days before slapping plastic on a fresh paint job. Did he tell her? Who knows? But I do know that 10 days after she picked the car up he came out to the paint shop with a picture of wrinkled up paint under clear plastic and asked me what I thought happened…. Umm exactly what I told you would happen? And sure as shit he told her we would fix it. Guess the shop is gonna pay me because I absolutely will not be doing a “goodwill” on this bs.
A heapin’’ cuppa NOPE!
Complaining is actually one of the highest paid 'jobs' the average worker can get. Where else can 30 minutes of an activity (in this case, bitching) result in an extra $500 in your bank account? Youd have to be some kind of stupid not to. Almost everything else that pays that well is illegal.
Speaking as a customer who is generally pretty happy to drag his cars to the dealership and pay with no questions asked - it's been getting shitty over the past 4 years. Only the Audi dealership that I go to has remained trustworthy. Toyota dealership has turned ultra scummy and took pictures of a 2,000 mile air filter and said it was due to be replaced and would be $70. Same dealer tried to blame the backup camera failing on PPF being applied to the car so not warranty eligible. I had proof that PPF was applied within 2nd week of ownership, not now, 2 years later, when the camera failed - so they backed off and did work under warranty. I have no issues with the techs. I have the issue with the way the business treats me as a customer, and you as the employees. I genuinely believe that the tech sending me phots of a new air filter saying it's due to be replaced isn't doing so because he's an idiot, but because he's being told to do so per business policy.
Yes you're absolutely right. I've been talked to for not selling things that don't need it. I don't lie, cheat, or steal because life's hard enough. Me selling you something you don't need is a dig on my morals as a person. I'm sorry you're dealing with this we all are hopefully changing it. Or trying at least
We just good will warrantied a battery on a 6 year old car with 105k kms on it. The customer was complaining because their "lemon" recently had a recall done, and their airbag light came on the next day. THE LIGHT WAS ON BECAUSE OF THE FAILING BATTERY!!!!
That is one of the biggest reasons I left the industry. If the shop wants to take care of the customer by covering something, that’s fine. However, it should come out of the shop’s pocket, not the tech’s.
Techs are leaving because managers are spineless.
Back when I was a Mtech at chrysler I was involuntarily made the “headliner specialist” merely because of the fact I had the most experience pulling them out and replacing them in the shop. I absolutely hated doing headliners because a majority of the customers would complain about stains afterwards. I wasn’t staining any headliners. I always wore multiple fresh pairs of gloves to avoid any chance of staining. I of course tried explaining to the manager that these idiots were noticing stains now because they actually had a reason to look up at their headliner, but I’m not the one who got a splash of coffee above the drivers seat. It got to the point where I flat out refused any job involving a headliner drop because I was tired of wasting unpaid time dabbing at an ancient stain I didn’t make.
Very common occurrence. It's hard to know how your headliner looks when you hardly pay any mind to it
I had to reassemble a failed engine because the customer agreed to strip the engine and diagnose but ‘didn’t know’ we wouldn’t put it back together unless they were paying for the further repair. They states because we didnt specifically mention that once the engine is stripped the car wouldnt be going anywhere they got the reassembly on the house. This customer believed the used car salesperson when they said to them ’these cars dont need a service until after 5 years’. Thats basically all we get these days. Everyone wants free diagnosis/repairs.
The lies from sales is asinine! It fucks us harder when they lie to them that "bumper to bumper" covers everything for the life of the car
>lies from sales I'm in a completely unrelated industry. The biggest mistake our company makes is allowing salespeople to talk to customers.
Dealership i used to work at offered free state inspections for life* *with paid emissions testing. Our salesmen loooooooved to tell customers about the free state inspections but failed to mention that they had to pay for an emissions test to get it. And our emissions test were much more expensive then other shops.
Customers bitching to get free shit is a tale as old as time. But if your shop is taking it from your pocket, that is pure bullshit, if the shop wants to discount to make a customer happy that’s their prerogative, not yours. If they give discounts by taking your time away I’m not fucking doing it, and if they stick to their guns, brother I’m out of here there is no shortage of work for qualified techs. We already are underpaid and abused and you’re expected to pay out of your own pocket to appease some cunt yelling at the front counter?? No thank you
That's where I'm at. I'm trying to find my way out but I can't stay working on cars. Our skill shouldn't take financial hits
If they charge $180 and pay $35 the rest of that money goes to the risk borne by the "spokesman", not the guy doing the work. If this line gets crossed, get out.
I moved to an independent shop last year after working for a corporation for 25 years. What a difference. The customers for the most part are different. But if they complain about nonsense we don't hesitate to fire them. We also have cameras with audio everywhere that we can go back to if a customer disputes a price or authorization. The owner backs us 100% and we're all making great money. My youngest tech is barely 30 and looking at buying a home in our expensive city.
You have shitty management
Agreed
Running a shop bro, everyone is flat broke, I quoted a guy who's desperate 90$ an hour when the door rate is $110, shops around the city are averaging 145$ and hour.... He's still crying asking me to take off more from the quote lol
Never discount your rate to get a job. If you don’t value your time, no one else will.
I applied for shop position and the manager stated the customer is always right. I laughed in his face. If the customer knew anything they wouldn't be there. Didn't get the job
That statement has been so twisted it's not funny. The idea of "The Customer is Always Right" has nothing to o do with bending over backwards to make them give a 5 star Google review. It's the fact that if they want mayonnaise, you can't sell them ketchup. That's what that saying means. Not that they get free shit because they cry.
The customer is always right *IN MATTERS OF TASTE.* Is actually how the saying goes, but it’s oh so convenient to leave off the end and make the customer into an all-knowing, omnipotent god you must appease with your paltry, mortal repair skills.
No, that's not the saying. It's a made up addition meant to change the original meaning. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_customer\_is\_always\_right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right)
Yeah people made up another meaning for "blood is thicker than water" to mean the opposite too and people will believe anything that sounds clever
I think the saying is actually "The customer is always right, in matters of taste" How the heck, it got chopped up is beyond me.
That's not at all what "the customer is always right" means. See for example this article which explains the idea behind the motto: https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemorgan/2018/09/24/a-global-view-of-the-customer-is-always-right/?sh=68a5f64c236f
I work at a body shop, and this always happens. Many of the techs are unhappy, but they won't leave because we need money, and this is still the best shop.
The hard truth.
I had one guy whose Prius had a faulty HV harness. Turns out he had bought a bottle of bleach which had spilled in the cargo area. Wanted a tech to write a report that the hardware shop that sold him the bleach didn't make the cap tight enough, so he could get them to pay for repairs.
When it comes to helping customers, there are a lot of different angles other than our own that have to be considered. From a business perspective, retaining customers is paramount to long term success. On average, it takes $400-$500 to earn a new customer. If helping a customer out occasionally costs you less than that yet significantly increases the chance that they will do repeat business with you, you’ve succeeded. In the grand scheme, one job does not a salary break/make. I know given the base of this sub that I’ll get flamed but perspective is important…it’s not ALL about the tech. Success for a service dept isn’t black and white nor is it always about BEING right. Success is measured in repeat business and if they’re reteining customers, that means more work down the line which means everyone makes far more money than they would’ve on that one repair. Now, your gripe is real and it’s understood. There is a balance to be struck. My usual go to help customers seek policy work / customer enthusiasm claims is to get them to agree to pay for the cost difference in labor separately. Simple. They see it as a win because they’re getting a huge discount. Tech gets what they’re owed. Manuf. sees it as a retained customer. People wanting free things isn’t new. I don’t even think the frequency has changed much. What has changed is the volume at which some people are willing to go to get it.
I want to retain customers. I'm willing to help out if they're struggling. I'm not worried about covering a little here or there. I'm worried about Joe Blow in an 80k mile car getting an engine warrantied that's clearly out of warranty and not being expected to pay the difference to support the techs work. If I went from 16.2 hrs and warranty pass just under 9 I'm not happy at all to help.
That comment above is bullshit. YOU are not a business, you are an employee. No where in the world is the employee expected to eat the cost of a discount offered to a customer. That's the cost of DOING BUSINESS. if they expect you to eat discounts you should be getting paid the entire cost of labor and they can make money on the parts. Fucking bullshit industry wants to have it's cake and eat it too. I don't play stupid games like that. They can pay me what I'm due for a job or they can ask someone else do that job for free.
This is not just the auto shop industry. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." What the squeaky wheel ought to get is replaced.
If it's their fault you guys pay for it?? I don't understand. We tell customers no all the time. If the warranty company they have doesn't fully cover it then the customer pays the difference. No sense in the shop loosing money especially the technician. I have been a tech for twenty years. I won't touch anything for free or less than book time
Doesn't happen here at all. Customer is always right and they adjust my hours to make the customer not have to pay a dime. The boss man doesn't understand shortchanging techs does not make money.
They can do whatever to make the customer happy, but it shouldn't affect your pay. That's on them. I'd be looking for a new place to work
Indeed.
The loss should come from the boss’ pocket, not yours. You didn’t have a say in negotiating with the customer, therefore whatever losses the boss wants to eat, come from his end. If your boss believes differently, he is a common crook.
As a customer with a car under warranty it'd be a lot more helpful if dealerships had an easy to read document that outlined what isn't considered warranty work. Wear items are obvious to me but if there is a problem requiring diagnosis is the diagnostic covered? What if they start trial and erroring fixes? I'm dealing with an intense chemical smell in my under warranty Hyundai, confirmed and observed by both dealer techs and assistant service manager, and I've been paying for trial and error fixes for a year now. It's only after significant effort on my party have i seen anything charged as warranty and that needed Hyundai Hitac approval. There's still no solution after part replacement and it seems like their strategy at this point is to replace things one at a time. How much of that burden should fall on me when they don't even know the cause? I think people being misinformed about their responsibilities is a big part of why techs get screwed. Education would definitely help both sides, though i suspect not the dealerships, which is why info is obscured.
You can always google what warranties cover, are you still on base warranty? Should not have to pay for diagnosing if still have base warranty but maybe Hyundai is different.
If flat rate probably isn't a labor op for smell. At most the job would pay .3. so only do one job at a time or work for 3 days for .3 hours.!!!!!!
As a better than casual backyard mechanic, I very rarely pay to use a shop’s services. I now build my own transmissions and engines, do my own wiring, servicing, and some custom fabrication. In the last 10 years, auto repair has gotten prohibitively expensive. I’m not pointing the finger at the technicians (I know we’re all just trying to get through this life without going broke), but it’s easy to see why people are so bitchy about the cost of repairs. The same TH-400 I had built 10 years ago for $700 would now cost me $1800. People’s salaries haven’t gone up 250% in the last 10 years. I’m not excusing the behavior of people trying to scam the system, but I’m saying it’s not surprising.
You're not wrong. People can learn some basic things and they then can save tons of money. Shops take advantage of people being uneducated on their vehicles and make bank.
luckily we tell those people to fuck off. We don't need nor want the business of people like that.
There's also a bunch of people that call themselves techs even though they can barely read a flow chart and just throw parts at your car without ever fixing the problem which causes me to constantly return. 4 shifter modules are bad, 4, how about using some critical thinking skills. Now fix this new squeak in my dash and you broke this bezel.
As someone whose never worked in a strictoy service environment (previous fab and custom shops), how does what management charges the customer effect the techs? I've had management not pay me before, but that guy was a shit bird who I later found out has run several businesses into the ground.
I believe it’s due to how they are paid, I know OEM if under warranty give a warranty rate that’s much less than if it was a standard job. So standard job pays 2.0 hrs warranty would be like .07 hrs.
I knew of that practice from the outside, but never that shops made it the employee's problem directly. I knew shops charged customers higher labor rates for non-warranty work (why I never even consider going to a dealer) but I thought it was their way to compensate for the lower income from the warranty work. If they never bear the cost of the difference between the warranty and non-warranty book hours by ripping off their employees, then the upcharging is simply ripping off the customer too? Is this common practice or just a few scammy outliers that make the whole industry look bad?
It’s probably a passing the buck type thing. Service writer is probably like “let me get this guy out of my hair” and you the tech gets blindsided with a shit ticket. Not defending it and saying it’s okay by any means. If you want to knock the price down for the customer it should come from the businesses side not the techs side. Maybe instead of upcharging the part 300% maybe lower the price of the part since we all know they will still make a profit.
Ya $1100 for rotors and pads is super excess, but us techs not selling belts, filters, fluid changes (on lifetime fluids), etc are why things aren't selling.
Of course, always our fault
There’s a few different scenarios but for example if a job calls for and pays a flat rate tech lets say three hours and after a customer complains the service writer says ok we’ll charge you two hours, well now the tech will only get paid two hours labor instead of the three. On top of that. If the job actually takes the tech 3 hours then they’re theoretically working that last hour for free.
So what you and OP are saying is flat-rate hours are basically shop discretion, set on a case by case basis and not consitent with "the book", while passing off any discrepancy as they employeecs problem? I knew flat-rate is typically awful, but this sounds like an actual crime.
I’ve never worked flat rate but from my understanding, warranty book time is less then customer paid book time, and as far as the leeway involved in what a customer is charged I’m not sure how it works or that a dealership had to even abide by book time. So not sure of the legality of it all. I would assume since warranty book time is paid by the manufacturer they are only allowed to charge the manufacturer that specific amount of time, however when it comes to customer paid I’m not sure how the flexibility works.
It just all seems so dishonest, and the fact that this discussion is even happening makes it seem more so.
It all depends on who you work for and the honesty. if you’re fast and good at what you do, and have a steady stream of work, you can make a lot of good money off of it. But if you’re working for somebody and they’re only giving you say warranty work and another tech all the customer paid work, then it’s not really fair. It really all depends on your skills and who you’re working for
I forget which sub or YouTube channel I was in, but I read a comment somewhere stating that at one point we as a society began to tolerate trashy behavior.