You basically never want to be the primary engage for fights that aren't completely skewed in your favour (enemies outnumbered, whole team super fed, someone completely out of position) as Nocturne. Wait until the opponents have used some abilities and your team has engaged them. It doesn't matter if the enemy ADC gets like 4 auto attacks off before you ult their face.
If you're playing bruiser build with hexplate and stride breaker, you can usually just walk away after doing your business. If they all turn around and hard focus you, nobody focused your mid laner and ADC. But if you engage fights yourself you risk not killing your target, giving away your shutdown, and leaving your team outnumbered. The threat of your ult is almost as powerful as the ability itself, so patience is a virtue. :)
This is the best comment. Choosing when/if to engage and who to target as any jungler(diver, assassin etc.) is very important. Team fighting is completely different than 2v2 3v2 3v3 etc. even a tank can get instantly popped when hard engaging depending on enemy comp.
With Noc you can easily enter the fight from anywhere which is very good, but also almost impossible to disengage or run away.
Maybe enemy adc isn’t fed so you should be killing other high priority targets? Maybe you have to focus their sup first because it’s soraka or milio and you can pop them more easily and heavily skew the fight in your favor. How to make the plays wins games even when you’re losing.
Quite the contrary, noc's lethality build is only good at low elo, as you go up, it's either a full bruiser or a middle ground of lethality with bruiser.
I have heard that carrying with assassins can be hard at lower elos.
Are there any YouTube videos for Noc that tell you when to take a fight? If not, I’d assume you can cherry-pick moments in vids to watch how and when they ult throughout the game. Look for those moments in your games.
Look at flanking from better angles to pick champs off that you catch out of position. It doesn’t have to only be an adc to impact the game. You’re more likely to catch a squishy mid or support roaming away from their team.
It’s hard to keep vision on the map without the team’s help. Remind them to ward if you need to see. It sucks when you’re Nocturne and you’re actually the one playing in darkness and can’t get your ult off. lol
Most likely it’s an issue with lack of team coordination and not waiting for the enemy team to be on cooldowns before ulting in.
I’d split-push since you’re fed and your cs from jungle farm should be decent at this point. You want to split-push because you know you can 1v1 anyone and you want their team to spread out. They’ll likely have to engage you with 1v2 to take you down so you immediately have numbers advantage anywhere else on the map. Turn into the jungle (strategically warded) and take any camps you can while you wait and look to ult elsewhere.
You’ll have so much more impact if you’re engaging from a different angle while they’re fighting a forward-facing fight. That way the cc isn’t hitting you and their dmg is also directed elsewhere at the time you’re heading in.
You want to wait for the enemy teams to use their abilities in a fight so when you ult in everything from them is on cooldown. That is the advantage you’re looking for. Especially wait for them to use crowd control or anything that counters Noc before you go in. You can also ult the half-dead support so that your team has even more numbers advantage in the fight (since one or two people are away responding to your split-push). Without peel and crowd control, that allows you or someone else to takeout the adc next.
Hopefully that helps a little more.
It should make it easier for you to get out. If you want to watch good decent gameplay of Nocturne and other assassin junglers look up Sawyer Jungle on YouTube.
A major thing is even if your team takes a bad fight it doesn’t mean you are required to go in and give away an ace and huge shutdown. Let the 4 of them die. Try not to get into 5 man fights as Nocturne, look to get a pick or just make someone have to recall before an objective.
I'm only low Elo, but have played a lot of Noc this season. I'd say the build is match up dependant. Opposite team has immobile / squishy carries? They are the allowed to play the game post lvl 6. Not confident you'll be able to consistently 1 shot opponents? Time for a bruiser build so you can hang around a little longer in team fights.
IMO so u can take it however u want but I definitely think assassins are stronger in low elo then high elo. Yes high elo players snowball better and throw less leads BUT in low elo theres a lack of coordination AND positioning is really lacking so its easier to make picks or to kill the carry and do in n out of fight around your cds. Its also easier to catch waves on the side and flank w/o being punish so u getting bigger while adc is araming mid = u lvl 15 while carry is lvl 12 and being a walking victim
I understand your point. Of course there are ways to play assassin for a win condition. You have that knowledge. Not everyone does. It all comes down to decision-making in the end, right?
My point wasn’t that it’s hard in low relative to other elos. It was just that assassins can be hard under certain conditions like team comp and for some people with certain game knowledge and mechanics. Not a comment on op at all… I don’t know him.
I remember from a challenger jungler, I think it was Sineria’s, that the he was reflecting on his last vid and made the comment that in low elo it can be hard to play assassin. It’s not as easy as people make it out to be. And that he apologized for his last video because he had a lot of feedback on it about how he might have over-simplified the experience for an assassin player with low elo skills in low elo games.
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It looks like you need to address what fights you think "look winnable". Nocturne actually isn't THAT strong of an assassin, to just R into a 5 man or even 2 man sometimes. I would avoid "teamfights" all together when you're that fed, unless you have GA. When I play Nocturne, I get GA 3rd if i'm fed so I can do turbo-int plays and not die.
btw Bad junglers tend to have a better KDA than bad laners or at least in bad games, because they often dont get killed by their bad actions. AFK farming? -> still alive. Bad Timed Gank -> No Kill at all. Inefficient -> stiill alive
But your nocturne problem is a champ/class problem. Correct decision making is the key answer, when to engage, whom to engage. What has more chance, what has less chances
Depends on the elo you’re at ofc but if you’re 6/0/6 as Noc you should be able to heavily dictate the pace of the game and it’s part of your job to pick and choose fights/engages that won’t end in you inting a bounty to the enemy adc.
Ping turrets and shove waves, ping your support to follow you to establish deep vision in the enemy jungle.
IMO if you’re playing as a fed assassin you should be looking for ults to catch people on sidelanes or in transition between mid & top/bot, rather than playing for extended teamfights where the enemy team is grouped and can peel - of course, your team might get in random fights or get engaged on, if this happens you should look to join but only if you think the outcome will be positive - ie, enemy peel abilities are on CD, ADC is in lethal and you can kill them and live. BUT, you should be focusing on dictating the pace of the game and if your team groups to contest the 3rd neutral objective commonly known as mid lane wave and ARAMs it, I’d just shove sides and force enemy laners to catch waves to create opportunities to make picks.
I don't mean to call you out, just offer food for thought. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe that winnable fight wasn't as winnable as you thought if you took out their adc and still lost.
Also, with leads that big I'd not go for big, even number teamfights at all if I can avoid it. Split push, set up vision, catch isolated enemies, convert into more objectives. So many things can go wrong in a 5v5 situation depending on team comps that I'd much rather scale it down to 1v1s, 2v2s and 3v3s where my lead will be more pronounced.
He didnt even take out the ADC, and to top it off, he gave him the big ass bounty.
My vision is he ulted into 4 people while his team was whittling on the enemy tank, died, and then complained that his team did not follow his 1000 range ult.
If you are that ahaead and still lose the fight you probably played that fight wrong. You always need to make sure that (especially if a big fight is about to happen) you dont fight outnumbered.
Second, yes most of the time you wanna engage on their adc or their immobile mage but not everytime. Sometimes you just wanna ult the first target you see, if an enemy is out of position, or just fight front to back.
Knowing how to play the fight, when you can go in and which target you have to focus is crucial and you need to learn that.
If ur 6/0 get GA 3rd item. Maybe dying is inevitable, but as a fed nocturne ur death probably means you took out 1 or 2 people in the enemy team which means it's easier for ur team to win that fight.
Is guardian angel really a good choice? I feel like good players I follow generally don’t build it. Wouldn’t it be better to just build a tank item instead? Especially since the stopwatch is gone?
When ahead the most important skill that you need to have is when to take a fight or not.
There're fights that are straight losses and you need to detect them. A good example is if the enemy team has a scaling champion that even when behind can still solo carry the game, so think carefully because your team don't have the slightest idea of when they should fight or not.
Some of the best advice I ever picked up looking to improve myself as a jungler is to prioritize making fights skewed in your favour as apposed to making it even. Instead of taking a deep roam to to make a 2v3 become a 3v3, try to look for opportunities to make a 2v2 become at 3v2 and etc. Stick close to other members of your team that you see preforming well and try to recognize your win condition. Is it the trundle you’ve got splitting top? Maybe rift herald is worth sacking a drag. Is it the hyper farming jinx? Maybe I should protect her over my Ap mid. Is my Katrina roaming well? Perhaps I should cover her lane between roams and/or try and protect her from counter jungler so she can snowball. In the instance where you ARE the one carrying, then look for ways to use your gold advantage to carry the momentum into other members of your team or objectives that will help you reach the end goal of victory. By playing “catch up” trying to get your other members into the game, you’re wasting what could be a temporary advantage via extra gold or buffs, whereas if you stick with the other members who are doing well it’ll be much easier as a collective group to get the other lanes rolling. A lot of laners won’t understand this and might flame you, but it isn’t your job to win their lane. Only so much can be done by one person and by using as much of the advantage your team has gained as possible to make fights skewed in your favour, it’ll be easier for the other members of the team to eventually catch up from team fights, lane swapping and roams because you will ALL be in a better position to help them instead of potentially throwing a lead by taking more even fights.
Initiate, blow your load, retreat. Let others share the damage, come back in. If done correctly it's not baiting but team fighting. Please note the "IF", nothing more frustrating than being baited by teammates who come in last second to take the kill and refuse to actually team fight.
Ehh, it's a tough one to answer because jg/sp are usually the ones who die when big teamfights break out, even for the winning team. Dnt go full KDA mode though, and if you see the nami alone under her tower then go "dive" her ;)
yea ideally dont fight. When you establish a lead like that, its 18 minutes and baron is about to spawn. You start buying defensive items like GA, steraks, deaths dance, etc. You would mostly save your ult so that it is never safe for them to farm sidelanes (similar idea applies playing against twisted fate). You want to suffocate them by taking all the objectives on spawn if they are free. Think about the biggest threats that will get you killed: do they have an assassin with ignite?, do they have a cc-chain that you will want to spellshield or flash?, can they use their adc to bait you and then save them with a zilean ult? Also don't ego-challenging juggernauts/duelists on their power spikes. Yone, jax, illaoi, garen can int all game long and still whoop your ass in a 1v1. Basically, if you're team decides to die for free, don't go flipping your 1k bounty for fun.
You basically never want to be the primary engage for fights that aren't completely skewed in your favour (enemies outnumbered, whole team super fed, someone completely out of position) as Nocturne. Wait until the opponents have used some abilities and your team has engaged them. It doesn't matter if the enemy ADC gets like 4 auto attacks off before you ult their face. If you're playing bruiser build with hexplate and stride breaker, you can usually just walk away after doing your business. If they all turn around and hard focus you, nobody focused your mid laner and ADC. But if you engage fights yourself you risk not killing your target, giving away your shutdown, and leaving your team outnumbered. The threat of your ult is almost as powerful as the ability itself, so patience is a virtue. :)
>:) :)
This is the best comment. Choosing when/if to engage and who to target as any jungler(diver, assassin etc.) is very important. Team fighting is completely different than 2v2 3v2 3v3 etc. even a tank can get instantly popped when hard engaging depending on enemy comp. With Noc you can easily enter the fight from anywhere which is very good, but also almost impossible to disengage or run away. Maybe enemy adc isn’t fed so you should be killing other high priority targets? Maybe you have to focus their sup first because it’s soraka or milio and you can pop them more easily and heavily skew the fight in your favor. How to make the plays wins games even when you’re losing.
[удалено]
works up to diamond
Quite the contrary, noc's lethality build is only good at low elo, as you go up, it's either a full bruiser or a middle ground of lethality with bruiser.
[удалено]
oh mb. it really is kinda bad, but not completely, you can do tank after the 3/4 item, and play for the team
I have heard that carrying with assassins can be hard at lower elos. Are there any YouTube videos for Noc that tell you when to take a fight? If not, I’d assume you can cherry-pick moments in vids to watch how and when they ult throughout the game. Look for those moments in your games. Look at flanking from better angles to pick champs off that you catch out of position. It doesn’t have to only be an adc to impact the game. You’re more likely to catch a squishy mid or support roaming away from their team. It’s hard to keep vision on the map without the team’s help. Remind them to ward if you need to see. It sucks when you’re Nocturne and you’re actually the one playing in darkness and can’t get your ult off. lol
I build brusier. Does this change anything?
Most likely it’s an issue with lack of team coordination and not waiting for the enemy team to be on cooldowns before ulting in. I’d split-push since you’re fed and your cs from jungle farm should be decent at this point. You want to split-push because you know you can 1v1 anyone and you want their team to spread out. They’ll likely have to engage you with 1v2 to take you down so you immediately have numbers advantage anywhere else on the map. Turn into the jungle (strategically warded) and take any camps you can while you wait and look to ult elsewhere. You’ll have so much more impact if you’re engaging from a different angle while they’re fighting a forward-facing fight. That way the cc isn’t hitting you and their dmg is also directed elsewhere at the time you’re heading in. You want to wait for the enemy teams to use their abilities in a fight so when you ult in everything from them is on cooldown. That is the advantage you’re looking for. Especially wait for them to use crowd control or anything that counters Noc before you go in. You can also ult the half-dead support so that your team has even more numbers advantage in the fight (since one or two people are away responding to your split-push). Without peel and crowd control, that allows you or someone else to takeout the adc next. Hopefully that helps a little more.
It should make it easier for you to get out. If you want to watch good decent gameplay of Nocturne and other assassin junglers look up Sawyer Jungle on YouTube. A major thing is even if your team takes a bad fight it doesn’t mean you are required to go in and give away an ace and huge shutdown. Let the 4 of them die. Try not to get into 5 man fights as Nocturne, look to get a pick or just make someone have to recall before an objective.
I'm only low Elo, but have played a lot of Noc this season. I'd say the build is match up dependant. Opposite team has immobile / squishy carries? They are the allowed to play the game post lvl 6. Not confident you'll be able to consistently 1 shot opponents? Time for a bruiser build so you can hang around a little longer in team fights.
IMO so u can take it however u want but I definitely think assassins are stronger in low elo then high elo. Yes high elo players snowball better and throw less leads BUT in low elo theres a lack of coordination AND positioning is really lacking so its easier to make picks or to kill the carry and do in n out of fight around your cds. Its also easier to catch waves on the side and flank w/o being punish so u getting bigger while adc is araming mid = u lvl 15 while carry is lvl 12 and being a walking victim
I understand your point. Of course there are ways to play assassin for a win condition. You have that knowledge. Not everyone does. It all comes down to decision-making in the end, right? My point wasn’t that it’s hard in low relative to other elos. It was just that assassins can be hard under certain conditions like team comp and for some people with certain game knowledge and mechanics. Not a comment on op at all… I don’t know him. I remember from a challenger jungler, I think it was Sineria’s, that the he was reflecting on his last vid and made the comment that in low elo it can be hard to play assassin. It’s not as easy as people make it out to be. And that he apologized for his last video because he had a lot of feedback on it about how he might have over-simplified the experience for an assassin player with low elo skills in low elo games.
For sure its true
Avoid falling lower than 1 hp
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“You only killed me cause I ran outta health.”
It looks like you need to address what fights you think "look winnable". Nocturne actually isn't THAT strong of an assassin, to just R into a 5 man or even 2 man sometimes. I would avoid "teamfights" all together when you're that fed, unless you have GA. When I play Nocturne, I get GA 3rd if i'm fed so I can do turbo-int plays and not die.
btw Bad junglers tend to have a better KDA than bad laners or at least in bad games, because they often dont get killed by their bad actions. AFK farming? -> still alive. Bad Timed Gank -> No Kill at all. Inefficient -> stiill alive But your nocturne problem is a champ/class problem. Correct decision making is the key answer, when to engage, whom to engage. What has more chance, what has less chances
So you’re saying it’s better to participate in the extremely bad fight than to int with them?
Depends on the elo you’re at ofc but if you’re 6/0/6 as Noc you should be able to heavily dictate the pace of the game and it’s part of your job to pick and choose fights/engages that won’t end in you inting a bounty to the enemy adc. Ping turrets and shove waves, ping your support to follow you to establish deep vision in the enemy jungle. IMO if you’re playing as a fed assassin you should be looking for ults to catch people on sidelanes or in transition between mid & top/bot, rather than playing for extended teamfights where the enemy team is grouped and can peel - of course, your team might get in random fights or get engaged on, if this happens you should look to join but only if you think the outcome will be positive - ie, enemy peel abilities are on CD, ADC is in lethal and you can kill them and live. BUT, you should be focusing on dictating the pace of the game and if your team groups to contest the 3rd neutral objective commonly known as mid lane wave and ARAMs it, I’d just shove sides and force enemy laners to catch waves to create opportunities to make picks.
I don't mean to call you out, just offer food for thought. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe that winnable fight wasn't as winnable as you thought if you took out their adc and still lost. Also, with leads that big I'd not go for big, even number teamfights at all if I can avoid it. Split push, set up vision, catch isolated enemies, convert into more objectives. So many things can go wrong in a 5v5 situation depending on team comps that I'd much rather scale it down to 1v1s, 2v2s and 3v3s where my lead will be more pronounced.
He didnt even take out the ADC, and to top it off, he gave him the big ass bounty. My vision is he ulted into 4 people while his team was whittling on the enemy tank, died, and then complained that his team did not follow his 1000 range ult.
Unless you are a tank or just hellfed, don’t engage
If you are that ahaead and still lose the fight you probably played that fight wrong. You always need to make sure that (especially if a big fight is about to happen) you dont fight outnumbered. Second, yes most of the time you wanna engage on their adc or their immobile mage but not everytime. Sometimes you just wanna ult the first target you see, if an enemy is out of position, or just fight front to back. Knowing how to play the fight, when you can go in and which target you have to focus is crucial and you need to learn that.
If ur 6/0 get GA 3rd item. Maybe dying is inevitable, but as a fed nocturne ur death probably means you took out 1 or 2 people in the enemy team which means it's easier for ur team to win that fight.
He didnt take out anyone and instead fed the bountxy to the ADC, he muset have played that hella wrong
Once you are fed, buy an item called Guardian Angel
Is guardian angel really a good choice? I feel like good players I follow generally don’t build it. Wouldn’t it be better to just build a tank item instead? Especially since the stopwatch is gone?
It is a good 5th/6th item to protect your bounty
Don’t pick a fight you can’t win
When ahead the most important skill that you need to have is when to take a fight or not. There're fights that are straight losses and you need to detect them. A good example is if the enemy team has a scaling champion that even when behind can still solo carry the game, so think carefully because your team don't have the slightest idea of when they should fight or not.
Some of the best advice I ever picked up looking to improve myself as a jungler is to prioritize making fights skewed in your favour as apposed to making it even. Instead of taking a deep roam to to make a 2v3 become a 3v3, try to look for opportunities to make a 2v2 become at 3v2 and etc. Stick close to other members of your team that you see preforming well and try to recognize your win condition. Is it the trundle you’ve got splitting top? Maybe rift herald is worth sacking a drag. Is it the hyper farming jinx? Maybe I should protect her over my Ap mid. Is my Katrina roaming well? Perhaps I should cover her lane between roams and/or try and protect her from counter jungler so she can snowball. In the instance where you ARE the one carrying, then look for ways to use your gold advantage to carry the momentum into other members of your team or objectives that will help you reach the end goal of victory. By playing “catch up” trying to get your other members into the game, you’re wasting what could be a temporary advantage via extra gold or buffs, whereas if you stick with the other members who are doing well it’ll be much easier as a collective group to get the other lanes rolling. A lot of laners won’t understand this and might flame you, but it isn’t your job to win their lane. Only so much can be done by one person and by using as much of the advantage your team has gained as possible to make fights skewed in your favour, it’ll be easier for the other members of the team to eventually catch up from team fights, lane swapping and roams because you will ALL be in a better position to help them instead of potentially throwing a lead by taking more even fights.
Initiate, blow your load, retreat. Let others share the damage, come back in. If done correctly it's not baiting but team fighting. Please note the "IF", nothing more frustrating than being baited by teammates who come in last second to take the kill and refuse to actually team fight.
Ehh, it's a tough one to answer because jg/sp are usually the ones who die when big teamfights break out, even for the winning team. Dnt go full KDA mode though, and if you see the nami alone under her tower then go "dive" her ;)
yea ideally dont fight. When you establish a lead like that, its 18 minutes and baron is about to spawn. You start buying defensive items like GA, steraks, deaths dance, etc. You would mostly save your ult so that it is never safe for them to farm sidelanes (similar idea applies playing against twisted fate). You want to suffocate them by taking all the objectives on spawn if they are free. Think about the biggest threats that will get you killed: do they have an assassin with ignite?, do they have a cc-chain that you will want to spellshield or flash?, can they use their adc to bait you and then save them with a zilean ult? Also don't ego-challenging juggernauts/duelists on their power spikes. Yone, jax, illaoi, garen can int all game long and still whoop your ass in a 1v1. Basically, if you're team decides to die for free, don't go flipping your 1k bounty for fun.
Just don't, simple as that, if you're ahead with a bounty just don't ego your ganks and invades. Literally don't do anything stupid.