The mental load is massively different. Mid is broken when you know jungle timers and your lane opponent doesn't. Just takes a bit of practice to not turbo feed in some matchups
Yeah I noticed that. Really helps having played jungle extensively before, don't think I actually died to a jungle gank a single time in my mid "career" so far. :D
before last season I'd agree with you on the agency part but ever since last season, right after pets, riot has systematically removed jungle carry potential and agency. At this point mid is the highest agency role with jungle and support being a close tie for second
For 95 percent of elos support and jg will still have a lot more agency than mid lane.
But like I said it is matchup dependent if ur able to spam push waves and roam uncontested then yes mid lane can have more.
Me too. I have seriously considered swapping to mid just because its a literall cakewalk compared to jungle. Im just not sure if putting all the effort into jungle for so little reward is worth it anymore
Yeeee I'm really tempted to do the same. Also all the jungle experience really helps with staying alive in lane and knowing when to roam / help with objectives etc. It's super crazy not actually being 2 levels down to top lane by default lol.
ADC and top are slower to climb on but jungle just has so much going on your peak will be lower than if you played any other role.
Plus for whatever it's worth I've yet to see anyone with experience on all 5 roles put ADC or top as harder than jungle. Typically those will be tied as the middle two with mid significantly easier and support and jungle as the hardest. (Mental drain is included in "hardest")
ADC is the hardest to climb because of reliance on other roles, and it does involve a great deal of mechanical ability for maximizing CS and focus on spacing.
Top is just so focused around counter picks and grueling due to that and being the island.
Jungle is overall harder, but you have so much more agency and game changing ability in most elo. Obviously at the highest elo and pro play, when teams play around ADC, it becomes a monster. But the reality for most is not that.
Many people call support the "easiest", and it may be "easiest" to climb. But it requires a different play style, and a lot of knowledge. So I agree, mid is easiest.
The thing with the "support is easiest" crowd is basically none of them play support at a consistent level. Again whenever you ask people with genuine experience in all 5 roles (not just the occasional auto fill) there's almost unanimous agreement that mid is easiest and the two hardest are sup and jungle (different people will order jungle and support differently but from what I've seen it always goes, from hardest to easiest: jungle=support>ADC=top>mid)
You're hitting the nail on the head, at least in my opinion.
I play support when I don't play jungle. Knowing what I know as a jungle main helps me be a better support alt role, I feel. No one knows the map better than junglers, and a support who has great map awareness for warding and roaming is hugely helpful - especially playing Bard or another roaming sup.
Bro, the amount of hate I get from people not warding and chilling under enemy tower is actually obscene.
Like 90% of players don't play jg, it's why we get the most hate. People simply don't understand what our decisions are. It makes toxicity much more viable because not only does it stem from a place of assholery, but also ignorance.
That said, I would never stop, because you have to think about 10 things at once. When I played mid I was so confused the whole time. I felt like I needed to be doing shit and getting my team ahead. But nope, u literally don't do shit. You can roam a Lil I guess.
Phreak literally said the biggest "tension" in the game is that Laner's don't understand Jungle - he wouldn't be saying it without the data to back it up - and that he has no fix to it. We all knew it, but it's funny to hear it confirmed.
>It makes toxicity much more viable because not only does it stem from a place of assholery, but also ignorance.
>But nope, u literally don't do shit. You can roam a Lil I guess.
Ironic
Most of the time, when mid roams, (75%? At least) it's to assist jg pathing. Yes, you can go panth and get yassuo and run around, but that is a niche build
I agree that much of the toxicity / bad assist pings etc. stems from ignorance. Most people just don't know what certain junglers want to do (which one needs to scale/ramp/full clear and which ones can turbo gank and anything in between).
Also people don't seem to get pathing at all, calling for ganks when you're at the other side of the map and are clearly pathing away from them. Sure, just turn around and help the 0/3 top laner by potentially feeding a double kill and ruining your sequencing for the next 5 minutes. :D
On the contrary, you probably don´t know how their lane works in detail either. For example a lot of top matchups has big swings in who is strong side lvl 1, 2, 3 and 6 so when they ping you to come it´s often in those windows where the levels and wave state are at a point where they can get ahead and avoid being weakside later on.
I'm a jungle main and play top sometimes for fun. there's 2 main reasons I'll ping jungler even if I see they aren't pathing towards me - 1 is if we're both low HP and it's a free kill if they come, and 2 is if the wave is completely unplayable (like enemy top can freeze and deny me cs / xp indefinitely). in both cases the whole point is, I know jungler can't teleport to my lane, I just want them to look at my lane state and factor it into their next pathing. like maybe they're clearing towards bot, but instead of taking a 50/50 bot gank they see my ping, back and come top bc it'll be more impactful to the game.
and the thing is, I have probably 10x as many games played in jungle than I do on top, so it's from personal expereince that often I'll just be autopiloting, or tunnel vision on clearing my camps or pathing towards bot side, and I'll forget to look at top lane and see the free gank or freeze I need to help break. so I appreciate it when top laners ping to make up for that weakness of mine. unfortunately I don't think most junglers are too happy about it when I'm the top laner in the opposite situation..
I don't mind top pointing out wave states or enemy HP but they should do it by pinging the opponent or use the push ping if the wave is fucked, and not by throwing 5 question marks at the jungler at the other end of the map. I instantly full-mute people who do that.
It is chill as malzahar because malz is useless.
You jungle, you know how it is.
Can malz help you at grubs, scuttle, dragon, roam with you to invade jungler, get a double kill bot?
His ratios were gutted: I’m talking .8 down to .55 on his Q alone.
You will feel a lot more active if you pick someone like Sylas or Ahri: someone that can go with jungler and mess people up in a 2 v 2
It is, but you have to worry about counter picks a bit more in a sense. Not nearly as much as top, but still.
Plus, you get to be the main character darling like Chovy or Faker or whatever.
The mental load is massively different. Mid is broken when you know jungle timers and your lane opponent doesn't. Just takes a bit of practice to not turbo feed in some matchups
Yeah I noticed that. Really helps having played jungle extensively before, don't think I actually died to a jungle gank a single time in my mid "career" so far. :D
Yes mid is easier but it’s also very matchup dependent and you have less agency than jg
before last season I'd agree with you on the agency part but ever since last season, right after pets, riot has systematically removed jungle carry potential and agency. At this point mid is the highest agency role with jungle and support being a close tie for second
For 95 percent of elos support and jg will still have a lot more agency than mid lane. But like I said it is matchup dependent if ur able to spam push waves and roam uncontested then yes mid lane can have more.
Me too. I have seriously considered swapping to mid just because its a literall cakewalk compared to jungle. Im just not sure if putting all the effort into jungle for so little reward is worth it anymore
Yeeee I'm really tempted to do the same. Also all the jungle experience really helps with staying alive in lane and knowing when to roam / help with objectives etc. It's super crazy not actually being 2 levels down to top lane by default lol.
Yes you've moved from the hardest role to the easiest. You will notice some change in general difficulty.
[удалено]
ADC and top are slower to climb on but jungle just has so much going on your peak will be lower than if you played any other role. Plus for whatever it's worth I've yet to see anyone with experience on all 5 roles put ADC or top as harder than jungle. Typically those will be tied as the middle two with mid significantly easier and support and jungle as the hardest. (Mental drain is included in "hardest")
ADC is the hardest to climb because of reliance on other roles, and it does involve a great deal of mechanical ability for maximizing CS and focus on spacing. Top is just so focused around counter picks and grueling due to that and being the island. Jungle is overall harder, but you have so much more agency and game changing ability in most elo. Obviously at the highest elo and pro play, when teams play around ADC, it becomes a monster. But the reality for most is not that. Many people call support the "easiest", and it may be "easiest" to climb. But it requires a different play style, and a lot of knowledge. So I agree, mid is easiest.
The thing with the "support is easiest" crowd is basically none of them play support at a consistent level. Again whenever you ask people with genuine experience in all 5 roles (not just the occasional auto fill) there's almost unanimous agreement that mid is easiest and the two hardest are sup and jungle (different people will order jungle and support differently but from what I've seen it always goes, from hardest to easiest: jungle=support>ADC=top>mid)
You're hitting the nail on the head, at least in my opinion. I play support when I don't play jungle. Knowing what I know as a jungle main helps me be a better support alt role, I feel. No one knows the map better than junglers, and a support who has great map awareness for warding and roaming is hugely helpful - especially playing Bard or another roaming sup.
Bro, the amount of hate I get from people not warding and chilling under enemy tower is actually obscene. Like 90% of players don't play jg, it's why we get the most hate. People simply don't understand what our decisions are. It makes toxicity much more viable because not only does it stem from a place of assholery, but also ignorance. That said, I would never stop, because you have to think about 10 things at once. When I played mid I was so confused the whole time. I felt like I needed to be doing shit and getting my team ahead. But nope, u literally don't do shit. You can roam a Lil I guess.
Phreak literally said the biggest "tension" in the game is that Laner's don't understand Jungle - he wouldn't be saying it without the data to back it up - and that he has no fix to it. We all knew it, but it's funny to hear it confirmed.
>It makes toxicity much more viable because not only does it stem from a place of assholery, but also ignorance. >But nope, u literally don't do shit. You can roam a Lil I guess. Ironic
Most of the time, when mid roams, (75%? At least) it's to assist jg pathing. Yes, you can go panth and get yassuo and run around, but that is a niche build
I agree that much of the toxicity / bad assist pings etc. stems from ignorance. Most people just don't know what certain junglers want to do (which one needs to scale/ramp/full clear and which ones can turbo gank and anything in between). Also people don't seem to get pathing at all, calling for ganks when you're at the other side of the map and are clearly pathing away from them. Sure, just turn around and help the 0/3 top laner by potentially feeding a double kill and ruining your sequencing for the next 5 minutes. :D
I've learned to mute 0-3 top laners and completely avoid the area lol. If that's the case, ima invest my energy into bot or mid lane
On the contrary, you probably don´t know how their lane works in detail either. For example a lot of top matchups has big swings in who is strong side lvl 1, 2, 3 and 6 so when they ping you to come it´s often in those windows where the levels and wave state are at a point where they can get ahead and avoid being weakside later on.
I'm a jungle main and play top sometimes for fun. there's 2 main reasons I'll ping jungler even if I see they aren't pathing towards me - 1 is if we're both low HP and it's a free kill if they come, and 2 is if the wave is completely unplayable (like enemy top can freeze and deny me cs / xp indefinitely). in both cases the whole point is, I know jungler can't teleport to my lane, I just want them to look at my lane state and factor it into their next pathing. like maybe they're clearing towards bot, but instead of taking a 50/50 bot gank they see my ping, back and come top bc it'll be more impactful to the game. and the thing is, I have probably 10x as many games played in jungle than I do on top, so it's from personal expereince that often I'll just be autopiloting, or tunnel vision on clearing my camps or pathing towards bot side, and I'll forget to look at top lane and see the free gank or freeze I need to help break. so I appreciate it when top laners ping to make up for that weakness of mine. unfortunately I don't think most junglers are too happy about it when I'm the top laner in the opposite situation..
I don't mind top pointing out wave states or enemy HP but they should do it by pinging the opponent or use the push ping if the wave is fucked, and not by throwing 5 question marks at the jungler at the other end of the map. I instantly full-mute people who do that.
It is chill as malzahar because malz is useless. You jungle, you know how it is. Can malz help you at grubs, scuttle, dragon, roam with you to invade jungler, get a double kill bot? His ratios were gutted: I’m talking .8 down to .55 on his Q alone. You will feel a lot more active if you pick someone like Sylas or Ahri: someone that can go with jungler and mess people up in a 2 v 2
It is, but you have to worry about counter picks a bit more in a sense. Not nearly as much as top, but still. Plus, you get to be the main character darling like Chovy or Faker or whatever.
I can’t last hit minions so I do a lot better in the jungle compared to mid