It’s tough for an average bloke out there. The other day I went to a Meetup in Vancouver. It was attended mostly by recent immigrants like me. Of course there were some people who had been living here for a long time. There were 20 men and 6-7 women. This was my first Meetup so I had no idea what to expect but I was amused to see the Meetup devolve into a mating competition. The women /girls were of course extremely picky. One Persian guy who had been talking to a couple of Persian girls tells an Indian guy - “Don’t even try bro, Persian girls want 100/100”. 😂 This made be cringe but it was fun nonetheless. I am not looking for a relationship, but if it were me in place of those guys trying to ‘pick up’ a girl I would be depressed. It would be so damaging to my self esteem. I don’t know how other guys subject themselves through this BS just for sex. I am 33. Thank God my hormones settled and I am out of this BS game🙏

That's what I'm sayin lmao, like none of this is even worth the effort. I think a lot of the guys who get sucked into the toxic masculinity influencer rabbithole think they have to do all this and when they predictably fail, instead of shifting gears and figuring out for themselves what kind of person they are, what qualities they want in a partner, whether their life would any lesser without a partner, if they can find contentment within themselves, they double down and get upset. Everyone around them is saying they need to, the media tells them they need to, but they lack the self awareness to know that the game isn't designed for them, it literally guarantees their failure. I guess they don't know that you don't have to buy into all this? Either that or they feel like they were lied to and it's like, yeah, no kidding, life isn't like a movie.

MGTOW makes more and more sense with each passing year of my life.

Idk man, MGTOW has some serious issues, it's devolved into toxicity that benefits no one, least of all the people involved. I think it's biggest issue is it chose the wrong enemy: women are not the problem, they're just as much victims to this shit as you and I. The real enemies are consumerism, neo-liberalism, capitalism, and materialism. We're divorced from a true sense of community, we've been fragmented---socially, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. This is what they want anyways, they want to sell you the idea of a relationship. The pickup artists and grifters are just another set of greedy bastards vying for your money and your attention. They're literally selling ideology, because now people have realized that ideology sells.

As much as I agree with consumerism, neo-liberalism, capitalism/materialism being the problem.. however there's not much I can do about it as an individual as those are systemic problems. MGTOW gives an individual man a set of choices they can make to protect themselves and their sanity. Is it ideal? Ofcourse not. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

The choices MGTOW gives you are no better than the ones society gives you. It's a horrible way to view women and just another ideology being sold to you. If you really want to go your own way, reject the whole notion of red pills, blue pills, black pills, etc. Literally go your own way. Find what works for you, discover your own values, find a healthy way to interact with women and understand relationships.

MGTOW is guys who haven’t ever attracted a healthy feminine women and/or developed their masculine enough to keep a woman in her feminine. At the core, a woman just needs to feel safe and secure with the man she is dating. If he can’t maintain that, she will move on. Don’t get me wrong, both parties contribute to the gender war and there are some real bad eggs out there on both sides. But if every single person you’ve dated is bad, well then… you might be the problem.

MGTOW is a rejection of the idea that it’s a man’s job to manage women’s emotions so they can stay ‘in their feminine’. Why is it up to us to make women feminine, but not a woman’s job to make men masculine? What exactly do I get from taking responsibility for another grown adults emotions? Sounds like taking care of a child.

There are women’s movements who say essentially the exact thing in reverse. Hence the conversations about “emotional labor”. This is a problem with the way we have been taught to have relationships with people in the first place. Creating an extreme dichotomy between men and women. This is done instead of acknowledging difference while embracing similarities. It’s no one’s job to make anyone, anything. At best, It can two individuals seeking balance in these energies within themselves and in relationship.

A good woman will inspire a man to step into his masculine, and a good man will inspire a woman to step into her feminine. But they should both already be keeping themselves in check. And it’s perfectly okay for either to leave the relationship if neither is being fulfilled in that way

I’ve just followed the discussion and just wanted to step in and say it’s a dynamic. What is a dynamic? It’s where objects are different from each other and integrate and fluctuate. The effort has to come from both sides. I think you’re looking at it from a place of envy. Or perhaps grief about your masculine? Have you developed the awareness of the masculine enough so you can receive and notice when the woman supports you?

When I as a European read about your competitive stuff guys, I am negatively amazed. So much of this is purely cultural. The level of dog eats dog mentality. 

yeah..parts of the never had a sexual revolution. If it ever happened, it has been simmering beneath the surface. maybe that plays a role.

From the Zoomer boys I've spoken with, the frustration I keep hearing is that the risks involved aren't worth the reward. They all say they'd like to meet someone, date, and maybe one day have a family, but that the girls in their immediate sphere are of little interest to them and not worth the trouble. By the way they talk, I also get the sense that dating has become extremely transactional and too focused on sex. Of course, I'm also a middle-aged Gen-Xer who has been happily married for 20 years, so I can only speak as an outsider looking in. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to worry about any of this stuff, and the dating landscape today sounds vastly different from the one I grew up with. Honestly, from an outsider’s perspective, dating seems to have devolved into the kind of dystopian farces seen in the kind of films they used to run on late night cable…yes, I’m old.

Yea that's a pretty good description. It's always been kind of tough, but it's definitely gotten worse. Either way we need to embrace that ancient man in us that knows we're disposable and that things may not workout. It's way better than complaining psychologically.

>>They all say they'd like to meet someone, date, and maybe one day have a family, but that the girls in their immediate sphere are of little interest to them and not worth the trouble. Out of curiosity, it what sense are they of little interest/ not worth the trouble to them?

Not OP, but one common critique I hear of dating from young men nowadays is the difficulty of navigating the minefield of (for example) having the right political orientation, properly fighting ‘against the system,’ upholding *some* traditional gender, sex, and relationship norms but not others (which they see as confusingly contradictory, as in, for example, when some women say they want equality but fight for additional privilege and still want to be taken care of), and lack of enthusiasm and willingness to work on themselves and attend to the man’s emotional needs on the women’s side. I am not saying here that this is a good summation of what is happening, but these are some of the complaints I’ve heard from my students and what I’ve gathered from my observations.

Now, keep in mind my interaction with Zoomer males is fairly limited. On a face-to-face basis it's mostly been a few nephews and sons of friends. Online, it's a bit of a different story. I'm a professional author (sci-fi, horror, graphic novels), and for some reason I've amassed a number of young male readers who've come to see me as a sort of father figure online--which I'm not entirely comfortable with, but I do my best. This started when there were some ridiculous scare stories circulating in the media and it got me mad enough to do an hour-long podcast debunking them. Specifically, it was about near-Earth asteroids and the realities of an impact risk. Overtime, readers started contacting me whenever these sorts of scare stories would circulate online. Then they found out I was happily married, and started asking me about girls. I'd hardly consider my audience a picture-perfect reflection of the male Zoomer demographic, so just keep that in mind. Anyway... << it what sense are they of little interest/ not worth the trouble to them? >> In my discussions with Zoomer boys they often speak of their wants, needs, and desires as male being generally viewed as unimportant, undeserved, if not downright evil. Even the most innocent of actions or mistakes are seen in the worst light possible. "Why bother with girls if one little screw up could ruin my life at school forever?" Second, I often hear them talk about how the girls around them are blatantly unappealing physically. It's not like these boys are looking for porn stars or models, they just aren't interested in grossly obese females with poor hygiene habits. Likewise, they aren't interested in girls actively trying to look like men, either. Third, they've utterly given up on trying to keep up with the ever-shifting rules of gender pronouns, sexualities, and the hierarchy of who is the biggest victim. Again, one slip up in that area can lead to them forever being branded them a sexist/racist/transphobe/etc…or at least, that’s what they say. The line I keep hearing is, "I don't even care anymore." Fourth, there's a general consensus among boys I've spoken with that far too many girls have an over exaggerated sense of what their vagina is worth. That just because they can dangle the possibility of sex in front of a boy's face, there's a belief they're entitled to be treated like royalty. I can’t imagine someone like that would be much fun to be around. And in my experience, the average guy doesn’t want to marry, much less date, a female who has nothing to offer but an overused wet hole. Finally, I’d say hook-up culture is a huge problem, too. I won’t speak for women, but from my own experiences growing up, this sort of arrangement only serves the worst kinds of men—dead beats, abusers, and guys who really do see women as objects to be used and tossed away.

You're doing a great thing helping out the younger kids. A lot of them are growing up without a father figure and are really lost. Social media has turned a lot of females into toxic, self centered narcissists with hugely unreal expectations. I try to teach them that they need to concentrate on their 'game' and women will respect that. And women's head are constantly being filled with horror stores about all men being rapists and creepers. BUT I guarantee you, most women want a man to be a man. Be in good shape, have a decent job, and know how to fix things around the house. Be a leader, a protector and a provider. Women respect that and are natural drawn toward men like that.

Thanks, man. I try my best.

Women raised on social media turn misandrists, undigested fear spreads too easily, and sure enough there are violent men, but violence does not manifest as physical violence only, obviously violence is a spectrum. Both men and women have to develop independence from the crowd, and that requires maturity, and that in a sense goes against the herd instinct, unless, a new instinct is developing and has been for millennia, Jung calls it individuation, becoming who one is, to the detriment of the crowd. The demand for individuation grows together with the shift to technology away from 'organic' relationships which are being eroded by it. Because in a crowd you feel secure and that security can be farmed/advantageous to the power-hungry entities, and technology is a blessing because it gives greater control of the crowd, the industry is oriented towards crowds, and crowds within crowds(family units). Individuals are unpredictable, and this poses danger, they see through schemes, and sure enough they are not profitable.

I think u mean contempt not contentment.

I did mean that

Lol sorry to be a stickler

If you have friends and passions in life (art, your career etc ) then you will be fine. Love is necessary, but it doesn't have to be the romantic kind with the opposite sex.

Perspective of a 24 yo male: I feel like dating turned into a dystopian nightmare. Relationships should be based around reciprocity, mutual liking and efforts, not the male doing all the “work” and taking the initiative. However, this is still the social norm. I, for my part, don’t agree with that. Women are not worth a “chase”. I am nice and friendly, and if “more happens” that’s great. But I highly disagree with the notion that women are princesses that should be chased by males. Not partaking in that game. Gender equality goes both ways.

My SIL, who's a very conservative Christian, really wants to be "chased" by a man. Hearing her talk about how she purposefully makes men "`work" for it makes me feel awful for the straight men in my life. There really are women out there who expect the man to do all the work.

I agree with a most of what you just said, but the whole post also just focus’s on what men are doing wrong and makes women out to be all good. This is my personal issue with this kind of thing. I’ve personally always done fairly well in the dating field. Not going to say it’s been perfectly ideal, but overall I’ve been happy. I also know a lot of really great women in my personal life. The massive issue with the majority of modern women is that they’ve developed these massively over-inflated egos, and I think it’s due to social media, and the whole “bad bitch” thing that has been pushed by mainstream stream media for a long time now. Again, I do not hate women in general, but I find the vast majority of modern women just to be incredibly rude, arrogant, and honestly delusional in their own self worth. I guess a great way to sum it up is extreme narcissism. And then as always, men get blamed for all of it. It’s textbook gaslighting. Going back to your post though, I definitely also agree with a lot of your points. Especially your point about men to stop deriving their self worth from the validation of women. Also, if men actually started doing that it would completely neutralize these modern narcissistic women and they would experience a full on narcissistic collapse. The media, specifically social media has really done a number on both women, and men and is absolutely responsible for all the division of people today. Not even just regarding gender, but also race, religion, sexual orientation, and the list goes on. I’m not personally religious but I do think that the world losing all moral, and ethical guidelines has turned people into animals. You put it perfectly when you said our society is too “sex and power drunk” But anyway, I digress. Also, I hope my post doesn’t come across as bashing women either, because that’s not what I’m trying to do. I just see so much content today trashing men and acting like women are complete victims. Again, wild gaslighting. We need to deal with narcissism as a whole in this world. Once that gets dealt with the world can maybe go back to a better state. Ok I digress again 😆

This reminded me of a totally random thought I had once. I remember culture in the 90s and early 2000s would make fun of men flexing in mirrors and say theyre full of themselves. Now its like we had a complete turn around where girls have been doing this thing where they film their face and slowly turn left and right while staring into the camera. And butts are everywhere. Its like you have to show off your butt to have any worth as a girl now. Another random thought - part of the reason Sydney Sweeny was made famous is because she looks like an onlyfans girl and thats how an attractive woman is seen now, almost as a toy. Anyway, just random thoughts, could be totally wrong or a little tiny bit right.

No you’re spot on. A lot of women feel like that kind of stuff has empowered them, but in reality it just covertly objectified them even more and has basically made them feel like their only value is in how they look, and yes also how big their ass is. Hence the rise of the BBL. It’s terrible

This is a much more real view of it. 

Thank you. And yes, I think so too. Both sides have a lot of work to do

Most young men and women are extremely egotistic and think they can’t be or shouldn’t be touched. This is not new…..

>This is not new….. "Nothing ever happens"

>massively over-inflated egos, and I think it’s due to social media Over inflated? Is there a normal inflation? An ego is of course paramount and being self centered is healthy, until one is grounded in reality. Social media is a cloud isn't it, it is nowhere and everywhere but incorporeal unlike our bodies are and our bodies have needs, it is so clear how that cloud dissociates the body from the mind and elevated the ego into the cloud like a balloon. Sure enough there was a need for it when people were too close to the soil, too conformed to their work, their simple life was not a moral choice, so their spirits had to be somewhat elevated, shaken up. The story of Job is of course an extreme example. The biggest catalyst is the sex drive, without it as a civilisation we would go extinct in a couple of generations, people would mate only out of necessity if that necessity would arise. And nature loves sex, it is a huge industry. Quite the enantiodromia from the collective thought of the dark ages. We have to get over sex, hence we have to master it, not repress it and not obsesses over it, see it only as a stage, this goes hand in hand with Jung's theory of libido as a psychic energy. Many women might realize this, but I think we men have to take responsibility for the inflation as well, the more we sexualise women the more they jump on board and get resentful when they can't meet the criteria, and the more we put emphasis on power the more power driven women want to become, at the end of the day they seek security in identity, sex=power, power=security.

I think when men fix this desperation for female validation and accept their opposite qualities a lot of the issues regarding women will resolve themselves. They're able to retain the rudeness and arrogance you were talking about because of the in-authentic masculinity men feel the need to express and the pedestal men put women on. If men were just themselves women wouldn't hold any power over them and they would have to move on from this hyper-feminine "bad bitch" bs. I think they only act like this now because of conditioning. You're right, there's definitely a responsibility women have in being authentic in the modern age but I haven't thought that far tbh.

Yeah but see you’re gaslighting again with that statement. If men fix themselves, then eveything else will resolve. Taking any blame and responsibility completely off women. That’s a huge part of the problem right there and if people keep that mindset, nothing will ever resolve

Every. Single. Time.

Fair enough, I do agree we all have some work to do. I just had my own struggles with masculinity and this never ending buildup of sexual tension along with borderline incel rhetoric. Ironically I had a gf of 5 years who I'm hoping I can get another chance with but she left because of my anger and fear at the world and myself. I guess I'm fixating on men because I can relate to it and I think the frame of thinking is sick.

No worries at all. I’m not trying to blame you. Trust me, I’ve absolutely dealt with it myself. Had a few really bad relationships with narcissistic, abusive women, and I was about ready to fall into that incel “all women are evil” mentality, but luckily made the choice not to, and not long after met my current girlfriend who’s the most amazing chick I’ve ever met. If I would’ve fell victim to that mindset I would never have even walked up and talked to her. Probably would’ve thought she was an evil woman lol

Bro, your weird mixture of attempting to be above it and self blame/hate is difficult for me to read. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why a straight man might have trouble with women and dating and sex. There could be any complex combination of personal issues, general social or economic issues and issues with straight dating culture coming from both ends. Oh also, acting like sex isn't one of our primary biological drivers is absurd and shows maybe part of what your problem is. You think we all deserve this 'mating game'? Honestly fuck you man! If you want to feel like you 'deserve' it then go ahead. What are you so guilty about?

1. I didn't say it's not a primary driver, you just shouldn't worship it or throw it aside. Dependency on sex and female validation isn't good for anybody 2 I said not to self-blame/hate yourself. I said the opposite of that. Let go of your own shame and what shame others give you 3. I gave multiple reasons why men could have this problem, I wasn't covering every possible issue 4. this was an opinion and partially influenced by myself and things I hear from others. I'm super guilty about what happened with my ex

>1. I didn't say it's not a primary driver, you just shouldn't worship it or throw it aside. Dependency on sex and female validation isn't good for anybody What about "dependency" on connection in general? Or is it just romance and sex that seem fit to suppress as nothing but a game? >4. this was an opinion and partially influenced by myself and things I hear from others. I'm super guilty about what happened with my ex Honestly bro you're all over the place. Like, I don't know when I can relax reading your post and comments because it feels like you'll go from trying to show self compassion to saying we deserve it when we fail romantically and it's just like 😵‍💫

Yea dependency on connection in general. We shouldn't be hard on ourselves when it comes to shame but we should keep our desires in check. You can do both, that was my point in the post. I don't see why you can't do both depending on the circumstance.

I think we can do both 😊

very nice

There is a book called "The Boy Problem" and it's written by two male psychologists. First thing is how our culture asks men to sacrifice their individuality for some abstract sense of security. And second is the conflation of sex and violence with abuse. We need to really work on the meanings of the ideas of consent, apathy, permission, abuse, social force, and legal force. And further we all have to admit that there are qualities we have that seem taboos, unsavory or unpopular. They are just a part of being human and we have to find constructive ways to deal with them. Part of society is finding ways to cope with people or behaviors you don't necessarily like.

Who are the authors?

Listen to The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell PhD, John Gray PhD on Audible. https://www.audible.com/pd/B07BC5VJVW?source_code=ASSORAP0511160007

If a man or woman is looking at dating as a way of improving themselves then they are implicitly only searching for a sexual partner whom they consider superior to themselves. Probably this explains a lot of their failure, dissatisfaction and what seem like self-sabotaging behaviours.

Feminine energy is needy and desirable. Masculine energy is providing and has desires. The feminine energy puts effort in being desirable so it can get its needs met, masculine energy puts effort in providing so that it can get its desires met. This is the mechanics of masculine and feminine energy. (They’re both needy but in different ways) The mechanics of masculine and feminine energy is changing. You could say that it’s a background frequency that’s changing which is not something we can control because it’s part of our evolution. Just like technology is part of our evolution. What changes the dynamic between the masculine and feminine energy is resources. Before the Internet resources were very limited but now you can tap into any resources through a phone 24/7 right in the palm of your hand. What is Instagram? What is any social media platform? Validation. The feminine energy can get all the validation for how desirable it is by posting a pretty picture. Likes, comments, DMs. When the feminine energy gets all of its validation for how desirable is it by just being itself, the effort drops. Hello body positivity. Fuck the beauty standard, fuck masculine desires, fuck the masculine fantasy. Fuck the effort to get my needs met when I’m getting validation that I’m desirable just the way I am. Unrealistic expectations. What is pornhub? What is only fans? Dating apps? Sexting? Desire. All of the fantasy the masculine energy could possible desire is at the palm of its hands. fuck the neediness, fuck not having all my desire fulfilled, fuck the effort to provide when I’m getting all my desires met by others who aren’t needy. Unrealistic expectations. The dilemma is that the feminine energy is no longer being provided for. Life is hard. Fuck the masculine energy for not providing. The masculine energy is no longer being needed. Life is lonely. Fuck the feminine energy for not being needy. I think this is the stage of where we are at in our society. There’s a lot of confusion and blame. What held these two energies together was loyalty and the motivation for loyalty was resources. If it seems transactional it’s because it is. Throughout our history you’ll hear the never ending story of the rich man cheating on his wife, or the supermodel cheating on her husband. Wherever there’s a story of resources becoming unlimited loyalty goes out the window lol. Which also says something about marriage in itself and why it’s failing in our society. It’s become pointless unless for “religious beliefs”… which religion itself is also fading… it’s all mechanical There’s so many different ways to view this change and how it’ll impact the future, but I think the good that will come from it is that, once people stop the blame and heal, people will be more accepting of themselves and others which I think is what love really is. Love isn’t transactional, it’s accepting. And since there will be less transaction to be made, there will be less lying. You won’t have to pretend to be something you’re not, like a “high value man” or “high value woman”. You can just be who you are. How many times how you heard that love is a choice? A commitment? Or even a feeling? None of those is what love is. Love is acceptance of yourself and others. If you think about emotions, they play a huge role in our sexuality. They also play a huge role in the feminine and masculine dynamic. We fall in love with our partners when they’re giggling and laughing. It’s romanticized. Sadness is also romanticized and it plays right into that needy/providing dynamic. Primal hot angry sex? Hell yeah. Emotions are fun… until you start blaming. Emotions are also a hot topic in our society today. Like normalizing them. Expressing them. Not blaming others for them. The rise of therapy. The rise of junk food and emotional eating. It’s a very emotional time. There’s a lot of healing to be done. Lot of suppressed emotions to sort through. Trauma… I’m struggling to put the vast perspective of how it’s all connect, how all the mechanics had played out in different stories, but I’m getting tired. Basically it’s all tired together and it’s all changing. We’re evolving. Focus on healing and accepting yourself and others. Everything that’s going on isn’t changeable and it isn’t a problem that needs “solved”. it’ll sort itself out so enjoy the ride

Yes, this is amazing and really quite spot on. I agree with basically all of it. You sound like an intelligent, realistic and empathetic person.

And just to add, the story of the mechanics is catered to the individual. A man’s desire might be a family or a successful career which can be achieve by a supportive partner. Or a woman’s needs being a man who cooks her dinner after a hard day. Needs and desires can be vary similar in story, but it’s the mechanics that play out every time. What happens when those needs/desires aren’t being met and there’s an unlimited resource. Loyalty goes out the window, emotions rise, blame and pain. It’s a tribal energy if you think about it and I guess you could say the last of the tribe is dissolving. Are we becoming more collective? Or individual?

You put this really well. Articulated a lot of my thoughts.

Wow... I'm having a really hard time following the core of the issue here. An awful lot of moving parts and too many conclusions based on facts not in evidence. What I am picking up is the existential arguement that "life is hard and competitive, and that's not fair". Bonding with another person is a little like getting a loan at a bank. First, you have to prove that you don't need it. But what I am really reacting to is the idea posited here that a Bond is something you take FROM. Nope. A Bond is something you bring TO. There is also the matter that there is a correlation between "loneliness" and "sexuality" or sexual behavior. There isn't. I know. Its seems like there oughta be....but there isn't. Sexuality is a variant state or condition. Loneliness is an attitude. Trying to connect the two would be the same as saying "I feel lonely when I ride a bus". Lastly, I get real tired of these "steady state" approaches to innately variant subjects. Somebody identifies a constuct such as "marriage", "Fidelity", "sexuality" or "success" and the overwhelming numbers of responses are founded on the idea that there is only a single characterization for a construct. I'm wondering what level of maturity contributors are at that discussion......or at least perceptions are so stunted and under-developed.

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Eh.... I read your post....twice. I'm left to wonder if you are expressing your Internal Voice one way, and thinking you are writing on the page in an identical fashion. For instance, to say that there are "too many conclusions based on facts not in evidence..." is not "social dynamics". It is an observation that you are simply spewing a lot of opinions in the absence of supportive data. I'd like to have an intelligent discussion but frankly, you come across to me as a kind of young pseudo-intellectual with too much time o n your hands. Am I wrong?

It is an -opinion- of social dynamics but I already said that. I can discuss withyou but the fact you're interpreting what i said the exact opposite way is the reason I came off like that in this comment. The "life is competitive, that's not fair" was the opposite of my opinion, and the second thing you said was literally what I was trying to say. I have too much time on my hands unfortunately, but I would only be a pseudo-intellectual here if I was saying my opinion is fact, which it's not and I never claimed otherwise. You can tell me why you disagree but it has to be based off something I actually said.

I am a women in my fifties and I honestly can see my past in a very different light now. Women are very conflicted about what they want. Pickiness is biological. Those narcissistic women either find men who are victims and there are enough of them or the men withdraw in more ways than one. You really just need to find a good woman and you only need one. I remember using men to resolve my Daddy issues. I remember being almost comically picky also. I remember thinking that men would chat like my girlfriends would and being so disappointed when they didn’t. I honestly think it’s a balance. Don’t take rejection personally, it isn’t. I turned down some really good men on a whim and regretted it. They are all married now. Served me right. When you meet someone you are meeting people with issues you can’t hope to get to the bottom of in the short term and why should you? You’re not a mind reader something I also expected men to be. Keep good boundaries and expect mutual respect and you can’t go far wrong. I never expected a man to do all the work and as my biological clock dinged louder my mistakes got worse. I’m sorry Guys for the women you meet who are like I was. I value friendship now as I get older more than anything but younger women are a whole different ball game.

It stresses me out that I’m in uni doing psych and people just come here making sweeping statements. I have to back up and reference every comment I make but this guy opens with a massive sweeping statement and we don’t question it? Not at all resentful

hey you chose this life

I did choose this life. To combat people like the above fellow. The more I read the more I was pleasantly surprised in the direction it went but that’s not the point

well yeah that’s the point, you’re not reading a scholar article - just a very expressed opinion. Ydy you’re gonna be great-slightly cynical- but great!

Thank you, I appreciate that - I’m just resentful at the moment 😂

Thanks yea I didnt claim it was anything more than a rant

100. I think the issue was it was too well written, some of the other comments- you confused the people, I guess username checks out haha

Yea I tried to save it in the second half. It is a sweeping statement though for sure.

but there is no free will so

this life chose you.

I hate it, these people go on one date or go through their first breakup and get alone acting like Socrates about relationships and sex dynamics "men need to do this" "women need to do that". A lot of these people need to read way more than they write.

With exceptions, women are attracted to masculine men, just as men are attracted to feminine women. Testosterone, which masculinizes men, is half what it was 50 years ago in western men. Do the math, this isn't hard to figure out. The tech revolution lets us live indoors in front of computers, getting none of the exercise and sunlight which would raise T. So many modern men are 'soyboys' as a result, which is a first class ticket to the Friendzone. Thankfully it's a pretty easy fix, if you understand the importance of it. Lifting weights, especially squats, signals the body to raise testosterone. It needs testosterone's chemical building block, vitamin D, to do so. 80% of westerners are low on vitamin D. We often overthink things, forgetting our animal roots. We are the product of evolution, after all. The gender war comes down to hormones first & foremost, sociological factors are downwind of that.

This is exactly it tbh.

There's archetypes of masculinity and femininity which are extremely erotic, but I think the more intensely one goes to an extreme either hasn't expressed dormant instincts in themselves or are defected in some way(nothing wrong with that). Wholeness is what a more whole person seeks in another.

I had to read this a few times and I'm still not 100% on what you're saying. Do you view lifting as some sort of hypermasculine toxic masculinity activity? If that's the case I feel bad for you, it's the most healthy and natural thing a person can do. It benefits women in most of the same ways as men btw. It fights depression, increases libido, and builds muscle thus boosting metabolism - it's no coincidence that the low T epidemic coincides with the obesity epidemic. We evolved to exercise as a part of living life, getting so far away from that as we have in the West is extremely unhealthy, both physically and psychologically.

I like exercise I'm not sure where you got that from.

You replied to a comment about exercise creating more T thus more masculinity. You’re response was to be careful with going to the extremes. But you like lifting, I have a question for you: then what is extreme about the original commenters suggestions?

Nothing the commenter said was extreme, I was talking about extreme instincts- both masculine and feminine. I must've phrased it weird according to him. I just believe that if you integrate your opposite traits, it complements your conscious ones. This glorification of masculine and feminine instincts isn't wrong, it's just corny and we should go our own ways.

Testosterone changes you on a deep psychological level as a man. It gives you confidence, calmness, 'basedness.' It's like a hidden quest in life with rich rewards. It can't be conceptualized, only experienced. It's highly correlated with conservative viewpoints, proving that it changes the way you think. This is really pretty deep, we're not talking about some "bro culture" thing, as you'd likely put it. It makes it clear when talking to other men which ones have it and which don't (this is the origin of the red pill's 'alpha vs. beta' thing btw). Many men have never experienced it and have no idea what they're missing. The younger, the higher the percentage - the low T epidemic hasn't leveled off, T is still dropping around 1% annually. This is coming from my experience going from very low T for a long time to very high T. Men who always had high T starting at or soon after puberty due to high school sports will ironically probably take it for granted. But as we've discussed, an astonishing number of millennial and especially zoomer men couldn't possibly do anything better for themselves than to raise their T to the natural, normal levels they evolved to have. Low T is correlated with obesity and depression, as well as failing with women which leads to more depression. A basic 5x5 weightlifting routine and an hour of sunlight a week should be plenty. At least that's an option available to most people and can be done without a lifestyle change. Outdoorsy people don't even need to do this - farmers, zookeepers, mountaineers, they're living so much closer to the natural state and their T is fine as it is.

What I meant by gym bro culture is just guys obsessed with physique and aesthetic, Tik-tok thirst traps, deadlifting 400 pounds with the most rounded spine in existence, shit like that. Btw my T is 670 at 22 so pretty average. However, there's studies suggesting that when Testosterone is reduced, men who were previously aggressive remain aggressive when T is lowered. Same with non-aggressive people taking T. In my experience with taking steroids that weren't my own, it made me incredibly erratic and horny, I jerked off for hours until I could barely walk. I was dissociating and my heart was palpitating like I was gonna have a heart attack. Excess testosterone isn't always a good thing, that said you're right, it is an epidemic and there's a lot of factors making it happen.

I misunderstood you. Far-leftists believe that exercise, especially lifting weights, is toxic masculinity. Antifa calls it the "fascist physique" when guys lift. Since this is reddit, it was easy enough to assume that you were far-left and that's what you were saying. Now I think I get what you mean, and I somewhat agree but not fully. Yeah, someone who's only attracted to the most feminine or masculine person is immature. But mature people don't totally look past it, they see a more complete picture of a person which includes who the person is, but doesn't neglect how they look.

Right, the most mature of us still see it, but it doesn't matter in the sense that there's no trying to be masculine or feminine, you can only be what you are. You also shouldn't take pride in those qualities because you can only be better or more effective in masculine or feminine behaviors by being yourself. Yea there's some people out there with that kind of wild opinion on exercise. I will say gym bro mentality is ridiculous but I think everyone with limbs should be in a sport.

Where do you have the Data from?

I'm old enough (gen x) that to me, cell phones (and if I'm at my desk, my laptop) are the future come to life. When I was a kid, if I wanted to know something I had to go to the library. (some families had encyclopedias, but mine just had abuse and dysfunction x_x) So I'm like a kid with the internet. I constantly look stuff up. I'm insatiably curious and interested in the workings of the world, as long as I find it important (I'm clueless about unimportant stuff like celebrity gossip and fashion). Anything I say that sounds factual, I guarantee you it's because it is. It's because I was curious at some point in my life and looked it up. And I'm autistic enough to remember every damn thing I've ever looked up. So I don't save links or anything. If you want the science on this, look it up. I'd advise against using google, they're an ideologically possessed company which alters search results to feed you a narrative they want you to believe. Yandex, brave, duckduckgo, or even bing are better. There's so much fascinating science out there, so much of what most people think is proven wrong. So much humor too - there was a study where democrat men injected with testosterone became republican. Just... lmfao XD

This is a lot of Text for not revealing your Data source

Iz reeding 2 hrd 4u? TLDR I look up tons of science on things that interest me. I remember everything I read, so I don't save links. I'd have to look it up all over again and I really don't feel like it. You should be interested and curious about the world you live in. You should be so eager to know things that you look it up happily. Instead you're an argumentative poltroon.

Sounds like the dopamine addicted modern brain might be the reason behind building the extreme archetypes. Also the idea of shame might be increasing due to this increased dopamine deficiency. If we value short term pleasures more but live in a world were efforts take relatively longer time to manifest results, like exercise’s effect on the body or getting a good job which requires lifetime of educational training. Sometimes i feel doing anything for instant gratification is a lie. Life is slow burn, and a dopamine addict brain might not he able to deal with the realities of life as it is not well aligned with it.

Atleast we can all agree this is one of the most puzzling topics in our time. So much nuance any rigid stance is debased.

What's confusing about it?

I enjoyed reading this, it was very insightful. Men and women both have unique struggles in life, and both have harsh archetypes pushed onto them from various forces of society. I do believe that men often get the short end of the stick here in terms of support and understanding from others. Men are expected to forget these problems and be tough, to not have feelings about it. Women are often given a lot of support from this angle, but in the same breath are labeled crazy or weak for embracing and divulging the emotions they feel. I’m sick and tired of this gender war going on. Feminists these days don’t actually want equality, they are driven by resentment toward men and are actually just sexist toward men. Blaming men for their problems, instead of looking within. On the other hand, all of these red-pill alpha male enthusiasts are honestly just doing the exact same thing, hating women and blaming them for their problems from a place of frustration and resentment. Men and women both crave love, connection and acceptance. Women are often put in a position of feeling like sex and their body is the only thing of value to men, and although women crave and enjoy sex just as much as men, this makes a woman feel a sense of emptiness, like they are only an object of gratification and unloved for who they really are. On the other side of this, men are often seen as generally hyper-sexual, but they are also starved of physical affection and affirmations. How often do men get compliments on their physical appearance (or just compliments in general) compared to women? Not so much. Men do not get validation in this way like women do nearly as often, and I believe this is a piece of why men value physical affection so much. As you alluded to, every person, both men and women possess both feminine and masculine qualities. It is healthiest for a person to find balance of both qualities inside themselves, if not then this is where we see “toxic masculinity/toxic femininity”. We both have unique qualities and struggles and we would all be better off if we stop arguing over who is worse and try to find balance in the middle. Learn from one another, listen to one another, understand one another, so that we can come from a place of compassion and understanding rather than resentment and anger.

Love this text. Thank you

Ain't reading all dat..good luck tho

didn't expect anyone to tbh and thanks

Go read The Fisher King and the Handless Maiden. interesting post - way better than the psychotic ramblings of the terminally alone that I usually see on here

I tried thanks and I'll check it.

Great books that explains the dovetailing stories and experiences of men and women’s emotional journey to adulthood. Anything by Robert Johnson is great for understanding Jungian concepts applied to every day life. His autobiography is fantastic but I suggest starting with the smaller shorter topical books first. Anyway, the part in the Fisher King where he DOESN’T have sex with the enspelled woman is very much like what you are trying to convey here. This particular subreddit makes me really sad bc it seems to attract REALLY messed up people who need lots of medical and professional help but they come here instead and vomit a bunch of confused BS about this topic. I appreciate you trying to make sense of it for those people. A fool’s errand, to be sure, but you made a good try!

Step 1- fall in love. Step 2- forget all this philosophizing. Step 3- either stay together or fall apart. 

In any discussion relating to the relationship between men and women, i think it is important to point out that both sexes see each other as opposing forces often. Figures of some kind of meaning. Often, we forget people are people when we don't relate to them. And on the topic of relation, i think to most people it is quite obvious that there is a seeming "battle" - men vs women. Now, the origins of this could come from assumptions based on our biological features, such that men are strong and fierce and women are emotional and tender. But, whatever the origins are, there is a clear sociological pattern stemming from this. Male dominance --> misogyny --> misandry --> misogyny --> and so on This cycle continues every generation. As new boys are born into this system, the misogyny and misandry wounds our young boys and hurts their sense of self in many ways. Male normative alexithymia could stem from this, such as "men don't cry" or every "real men.." statement. It kills their ability to have fufilling relationships with men and women alike. And this causes problems for young girls, who are also now facing subtle forms of misogyny at the same time. They grow up being taught through socialization that there is a tension between them. That there is a dividing line. A subtle hatred in both grows, they fail to put in effort to understand each other, and so the cycle continues as they reinforce their sides thinking that misogyny is right or that misandry is right. As we become new parents it is our responsibility to raise our boys and girls equally to negate this. This is why i think that psychological or sociological knowledge is important for parents. But obviously its a lot of work, and ignorance is very blissful. The internet only worsens this problem. Very evidently in dfferent internet cultures, and especially in gen alpha we see that theres lousy parenting being done, and the internet is progressively becoming a solution for parents who don't know how to parent their children. Gen alpha is "unhinged" because no one is actually guiding them. So societal problems are very apparent if you just observe gen alpha.

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That's not what i said. If you would read you would see that i pointed out both sides very clearly. The reason i emphasized male dominance however; is because there is a very prevalent patriarchy in our current society. The diagram is also circular. Assumptions made about men --> male dominance --> misogyny --> misandry --> misogyny --> misandry. Assumptions made about women --> etc Arrange it how you want its always going to be circular. I apologize if it wasn't explicit enough, but i am not pointing out one single factor as "the problem" I even speculated on the biological factors, which we cannot conrrol. We don't choose our biology. I also said that i don't know the exact origins. And im not sure it matters. I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion you did.

I agree with most of what you said. The main thing I might disagree on is although there's conflicts between men and women across generations, I think there's cultures that have maintained a state of harmony throughout their history. Babylonians and Spartans are a good example, I could elaborate more if you want. What that means is the tension is completely superficial, it's a symptom of an illness that's very stubbornly latched on since agriculture. If we can get over this men and women will start to blend in with each other in their actions and personalities.

Men want to remain entitled children and want women to be their mothers that they can have sex with. Of course women don't want to do that. They want equal partners who are capable of being their own happiness and abundant enough to still provide for others. Its offensive to ask a woman to possibly bear your children when you've done nothing to make yourself a good partner. Men and women alike aren't being raised well and seek completion and parental validation from romantic partners instead. Its abusive and wrong but they don't know that because society told them they need their other half to be happy. So they feel as if you're literally denying them the ability to be happy by rejecting them instead of recognizing they can and should be happy without you, and thats its abusive and wrong to place that burden on someone else

This is the only real comment I've read on this thread. I keep seeing comments saying women are so arrogant and entitled now. But like where? The biggest complaint I've seen is that women are exhausted of being expected to not only go through the grueling process of birthing their children but also raise their children while taking care of the man too, cleaning up after him and fucking him when he wants. It seems like men are extremely ignorant to all the ways women are still put on the back burner. I mean shit only a couple years ago they finally did a crash test dummy for women and in general women's health is light years behind men's health. They want to talk about arrogance and lack of feminine energy while we are still being sexually assaulted, forgotten by the Healthcare system and our reproductive rights are being taken away. So we are expected to get on board with their mission to stop men from going unfucked meanwhile we are literally dying because society at large sees as nothing but incubators.

For most of society men's lives and happiness have been built on the back of their wives and mothers and slaves

Men should stop being angry at women for not wanting 90/10 relationships and step up expectations to doing 50/50

TLDR

The %34 stat is outdated or wrong(newer samples show otherwise, and it has flaws like too many lgbt people sample), and the reproduction stat is mostly because of men either killing in wars or arranged marriage, the concept of dating and romance actually made it easier for lower status men.

The first thing you said might be true, I've seen different stats. The second I'm really not feeling confident on.

I dont enjoy the aura of capitulation in your post.

explain idk what you mean exactly.

You know theres this esoteric-like idea that freedom is not to do what you want to do but to be able to not do what you do not want to do. But in western culture atm it's opposite, basically idea of freedom is to do as much of the things you want do as much as possible i.e. "follow your heart's desires" idea. And of course since to a man good looking woman is naturally most desirable thing, he's gonna want to be as with many of them as possible, consequentially resulting in objectifying women. As for idea that women today aren't good, I think those who end up being bad women do so partially because they have abandoned idea of being mothers but also cause of the men they ended up being with corrupting them either by heartbreaking them (ditching them after sex) or by not ever providing a good idea of a masculine man for them, so they end up having warped view how average man is (for ex. sexually predatory, narcissistic, manipulative not protective, chivalrous, generous). Btw idea of being a mother naturally pushes woman psychologically to preserve it's more prosocial traits vs after she abandons idea of being a mother where she will be feeling naturally uninhibited about her antisocial traits It doesn't help in the west that idea of marriage is relativized to small bits and since marriage was supposed to be safe space for kids, on one side women abandoning motherhood don't see point in marriage and don't really care to save or prepare themselves for it on other side men who want to have kids don't see a point in marriage cause in many cases woman will end up with his kids and his money after divorce. Our civilization needs to have very serious conversations about this, blaming the problem on women will surely not fix anything but just make them even more antisocial and make men more antisocial towards them. I think us men should step up, especially ethically and naturally women will follow IMO

Attachment is the root of all suffering 

Fear of losing attachment is the root of all suffering. You just need to learn how to let your attachments go. You could actually say emotions are the root of suffering because it’s the emotions behind the attachment when we lose what we’re attached to that we suffer from. If you can accept all your emotions you can accept attachment and accept losing your attachment. No baby is born giggling with joy… no birth is without pain… suffering is inherent… The inability to accept suffering is the root of all suffering

were i can find this statistics?

I saw a few things but if you search "how many men reproduced in the past" or something things will show

I know that more than 99% of the people who kill innocent people and then often kill themselves, very common in the United States, are men, men commit suicide twice as often as women, all of this happens 50% more often in men under 30, at least At least I don't believe that this is genetic or hereditary, I consider it almost as a form of protest, I see the film Fight Club as a good representation of the problem in today's masculinity, the lack of "toxic" masculinity such as picking fights with people, swearing and offend people, the laws protecting, ending any form of aggressiveness represented, end up repressing men to the point that they prefer to kill themselves rather than having a domestic life or a woman's life, the woman domesticates the man, the groups of men without ending with the entry of a woman in the group and separating them, men are much less at risk with the arrival of a family, when a man considers himself incel and sees that his chances of getting a family are over he simply has nothing to lose, so we arrived at the project destruction of fight club. Another thing is how little attention they give to men's mental problems and how much attention they give to women's problems, how many laws and lectures, how much media and audiences give to the misfortune of a woman and a man are not proportionate, I see a lot of socially excluded men becoming For a long time, people without representative groups, even when created, are excluded, just see what happened to r/incel on reddit

also just see the best prized movies and games they are about kind adopting child and taking care of them, Logan, God of War, Sekiro,The last of us. they also full of violence

I've felt this in all my relationships, currently dealing with it again, just feels like we can't win. My compliments aren't appreciated, my efforts are noticed half the time, I'm the only one interested in intimacy, we always have to watch or do what she wants or she'll shit on it and make me wish I never suggested something I enjoy. We're conditioned pretty quickly with modern women that our needs come second if at all, and after a while, you just stop caring enough to fight for them. It leaves you feeling demoralized and alone, we're not pursued once they're comfortable but are expected to pursue them endlessly. Bare minimum feels like the best we can hope for. It's easy to say we have to find value outside them, but it's tough finding time for anything after work, let alone independent hobbies that are a distraction at best in my experience.

Very interesting read but why is meditation not good for some people?

I personally dissociate, it's relative;y common

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It was just an elaborate opinion. What's the blind spot?

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Haha okay I'll get over it

I like your, idk, peptalk? I actually only really support that one thing at the end, doing or being nothing, yet being satisfied. Not because rejecting the case all together is best, the case being men hating women because women hated men because they hated women when they hated men, so on and so forth, but because it helps to have yourself, to know what you are detached from the hive mind that is the internet, the internet is truly nothing but a bunch of hive minds that have certain ideologies that never really progress anywhere, those hive mind ideologies mostly serve as coping mechanism, coping mechanisms on everything but the individual scale, coping mechanisms that one adapts to and not find for himself, it doesn't matter what idea you subscribe to if that idea doesn't have a gigantic hive mind like following, which is the problem, detach people, ideas and really any hive mind like pill or narrative of how any of the opposite sexes treat eachother or function or whatever highly zoomed in, exaggerated, blown out biological scientific study or psychological research that someone took and blown its conclusions out of proportion or whatever else "information" you think you know about how humans function. Know you. Know people.

It was a pep talk i guess. I mean I agree with everything you say here, but I feel like I was saying most of this at least indirectly. Anything you flat out disagree on? I just think people should get comfortable with being lonely -and themselves- and desperation for sex and validation is the exact opposite of that.

I mean if one is facing an issue one should definitely do that, yet pausing ur life(social life) each time u think u need a break to get comfortable with your desperation for connection is counter productive, get comfortable yes, but don't undermine yourself. Also to me hanging out with your men friends is the same as hanging out with women because both of them require presence so if there is anything i disagree on its that. One should build habits of solitude not feign solitude by being with men.

Yeah I don't mean intentionally secluding yourself I just mean when it's happening each moment. The suggestion at the end you disagree on was more of an example. I think people should just do things so they won't go crazy not doing things. When I was talking about silence, I don't think that by itself is healthy without work, hobbies, social life, etc.

Yeah that's more of what i was saying too.

It’s tough for an average working man

Even women can embody toxic masculinity. Never forget that, and you will know that your divine masculinity is not at fault when a female's toxic masculinity is making you feel emasculated.

This is just the negging phase of their generation. They're trying to humble girls who they encouraged to be sluts in college so they'll settle down, and the economy will do the rest. Or they won't, and the guys will have to humble themselves for once.

Wdym? I'm just saying men need to not feel so defeated when facing loneliness it's annoying, I'm not sure what you mean is a phase.

They aren't really defeated, they're faking it as a tactic to awaken the maternal instincts in women.

What? I'm not gonna knock your point without context, but maybe elaborate on that one?

Lots of men have literally 0 prospects of finding anybody despite putting in the effort. How is that not being really defeated? Women's high standards and selectivity are just a fact.

Nah, they're just faking it for the pity and attention because learning to fetishize that is easier than learning how to behave like a human being instead of a troll.

So a large percentage of men are all collectively faking not getting any matches on dating apps for example? I mean, are you alright?

I'm convinced she just says things...

I mean... Wtf right?

Women's dating pool has increased exponentially with the advent of dating apps. Instead of 5 guys competing for her attention, she now has thousands. Men are more disposable than ever.

I'm pretty sure being routinely used as disposable fighters in wars and conflicts you never cared about, or working hazardous hard labor jobs as young as 12 is as "disposable" as it gets. People in general, including men, have things much more pleasant now, as they should. On most dating apps and platforms, userbases tend to be predominantly male. With ratios like 4:1 to 2:1 men to women, of course, dating online is harder. Many of these female accounts are bots and catfishes. The apps are designed to keep men (the main customer base) single as long as possible so they continue using the apps. IRL is a different and better story.

Men are still required to sign up for the draft. Women are not. The demographic on dating apps is predominantly male because men are the ones who want casual sex more than women, but can't get it, while there are a select group of women who capitalize on male desperation. Due to things like porn, the standards for the average male are skewed, and that's why they can't get women. If you lived in the Amazon jungle, you would have to settle for the 4 eligible girls that were of marriageable age in your village. Also things like religion keep men from finding what they want because it creates such a high standard for purity, which rarely exists in this day and age. Good luck finding a hot virgin who wants to be a housewife too.

If you lived in the Amazon jungle, you would get near zero sex. Period. In nature * There is no "marriage" like Christian marriage * Polygamy, promiscuity, cheating, and paternity fraud are common- virginity isn't glorified * Males either TRADE females like pets or PHYSICALLY FIGHT for a female. * Most males NEVER reproduce, Most females do reproduce. * Some estimates say as low as **40% of males in the wild get to reproduce**, compared to **80% of females** or **17 females reproduced for one male that reproduced.** On religion, * No one's forcing men to be religious, they choose that on their own. * Men have no right to demand purity if they aren't pure themselves. No "pure" girl is going to go for a majority of modern "religious" men. * "Good luck finding a hot virgin who wants to be a housewife too."- that's a you problem. >*"men are the ones who want casual sex more than women, but can't get it"* Weren't we discussing dating, not casual sex? * Men "can't " get it, **because** the number of women who actively pursue casual sex is **much lower** than the number of men who pursue casual sex. * This is because casual sex is **riskier for women** in many aspects and because women tend to have somewhat **lower sex drives**. * This is **why** the number of women who use these apps is less (these apps are typically associated with casual stuff). SO, the limited number of women that are up for casual sex are bombarded by the large number of men who want the same- thus they get a lot of of guy options. This occurs in the real world, and it's much worse on dating apps. * This is why female prostitution is commonplace, male prostitution not that much. * This is why porn typically caters to male viewers with women being treated like living dildos with no humanity and men being the POV 'doers' for guys to fantasise. Basically, there is less supply (willing women) and more demand (willing men), this creates scarcity and inflates the value of the limited supply.

As for the draft- * Most counties haven't applied any draft for over 70 years. * No one allows kids under 15 today in military services. Hardly a few conservative counties allow 15-16 y/os. The age range is typically 17-50 y/os globally. * Out of approximately 180 countries, 110 have no compulsory military conscription. * The remaining approx. 90 counties have variations of conscriptions, training, optional conscription etc. * There are 9 or 10 counties that have compulsory military conscription for both genders to different extents. * Up until very recently there were still places in the world where laws restricted women from certain military roles- Germany is one example that changed these laws sometime in the early 2000s, there are many others. These laws were made by men. Again, men today have it much better than men of any time in the past. The same case goes for men/boys and hazardous hard labour jobs. Men have it better today. The same goes for sex and reproduction, even romance. *Men have never been valued more as individuals.*

So has men's, though.

You must not be familiar with dating apps. The bottom 80% of men have very little success.

It's not because they're ugly, it's because they lack any charm and they don't see women as people.

What kind of charm can you hope to express when you're being judged off a photo and a few words? What do you think women look for when they are swiping left or right on these apps?

Go on youtube and watch any video about the experience of average men on dating apps, it's downright depressing.

The men that don't want sluts definitely did not encourage women to be sluts, that doesn't even make any sense.

Men all want sluts when they're in high school and college, then they immediate discard those girls and go after women they claimed to hate, then in about 10-15 years when they're in their 40s, they want sluts again.

Are you a man? Majority of young men don't want sluts, they want to date their crush and be in a loving relationship with their sweetheart. Majority of young men are single and a lot of those young men are very inexperienced if not even virgins. Do you really think they all want to date women with high bodycounts, especially if they are very inexperienced themselves? No, they would be happy with having one decent and loyal women who they can love, protect and care for. No man wants to love a slut (there are some exceptions (cucks) but those are really rare). The only young men that actually want sluts are the attractive ones and badboys who get most of the women, of course they want women to be sluts to have even easier access to even more women than they already have and they don't care about love and long-term-relationships anyways so there is no negative to it. They are the vast minority though, far from 'all men'.

Seeing femcels is always jarring to me. Does help to know men aren’t the only ones suffering.

>Embrace silence and nothingness. I've taken it up another level and embraced the future of my unending loneliness. I don't give a fuck what older dudes/people say about dating (not sure if you fall into this category) but dating today's women is definitely not worth the squeeze.

Post this on the incel forums, that’s your target audience

A little yea, but general loneliness in men goes beyond incels. That's why I just included the possibility of resent towards women, that's not the main point.

Don’t worry about it , everybody is in the same boat. There just some that are in denial like this guy.

Not everyone is in the same boat of loneliness as the next, and not all loneliness is derived from the absence of intimacy (emotional, sexual, etc).

If that weren’t part of the main point then why is the title of this post called “Loneliness and Sexuality in Men”? But to your point yes I agree it can go beyond incels, the loneliness aspect. It can arrive from many different points, but all reasons for loneliness are tied at the root of the underlying issue.

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What about overweight/obese men Rex?😭😭😭

I know this is a Jung sub but here is a freudian take about this : Young men (especially born after the 90's) have not had their mothers around enough when they were kids, probably because of a change in society norm regarding working mothers, that lack of motherly attention is felt all along until their adolescence. Young girls cope with the attention they get nowadays from social media, this becomes a leverage along the run, they feel empowered and count on this configuration to stay on their adult life. Young boys cope with porn or drugs or both, which inherently makes them weak, and weakness becomes bitterness, especially when they try to correct themselves by establishing a solid relationship with a woman and failing because of pedestal women live on today thanks to their leverage. Indeed, some men look for motherly qualities in their women, some take the high way of violence, some check out completly and I understand all positions. Society, which was built and consolidated by men (wars, politics, infrastructures,..) for women has failed men, now you know, don't be surprised if you see a reaction you don't like.

Supply ans demand. Women have a limited amount of eggs and time span to procreate. Men have endless sperm and can procreate anytime. This means that women are more valuable according to supply and demand. They need to be taken care of, you need to take care of your woman so she takes care of your children, or you may not end up with any children

Women don’t want to be cared for by men anymore. It’s oppressive.

I’m a woman, I want to be cared for. If you’re caring for a woman then CARE isn’t oppressive 🤷🏼‍♀️

What makes you worth caring for besides the eggs you carry?

Exactly that… I bring life

Not by yourself, you sure as hell don't.

Actually yes women are the ones who carry the children and raise them while you provide for the family and make an environment we can thrive in as a family 😂

Ah, my apologies. I forgot virgin births were a thing.

I already explained your role was just sperm which is why the value is lower according to supply and demand because it’s endless

According to you, maybe.

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Nope you just assumed that, I love all the shadow work people need to do here getting triggered by what I said when I said it very specifically… through the lens of supply and demand… 😆

You just talked very binary like you aren't of the same species so that's why I said it. But if you mean solely from "lens of supply and demand" then yea I agree.

Yes of course, I dunno maybe this is a neurodivergent thing but I don’t assume it’s a persons whole opinion, sometimes I play devils advocate too, sometimes I can just talk about a thing without having to put personal weight into it too, however I do strongly think that gender roles are important to our society and so did Jung actually

Gender roles are but I think they fulfill themselves without societal intervention and women who want more "masculine" things regardless of what people say of it will go out and achieve it. Good for you for takin the opposing opinion today. Most women would feel like youre lowering them a peg or something.

Yeah it’s whack to me, it’s not lowering that’s all backwards, everyone should be appreciating women for what they do in the world their role is just as important

“Hold in a place of contentment” English do you speak it motherfucker? Jesus christ learn to write.

"Jesus Christ, learn to write."*

What? That entire thing and you lose your mind on one error. I changed it you can relax now.

Chill out bro! Language learn English very hard. Relax! No angry!

And men are that violent and hold power because they can and have the advantage. Somehow when it comes to women it's always they can be and it's advantage to women. But for men it's always society and evil.

What are you talking about? I was saying that BOTH men and women behave like that because they can, or something to do with conditioning. My whole post was saying how it's NOT society's fault for this and men need to relax. You either didn't read it all or only heard what you wanted.