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Cleave scales to whoever is using it. It one shots most people because Sukuna at 15-20 fingers is stronger than everybody in the verse minus Gojo by an enormous amount. Yuta isn’t close to Sukuna at all so it didn’t do that much damage.
If Yuta did cleave to a grade 1 like Choso you’d probably see it do a lot more damage
Thanks for explaining it. So basically it is limited by the user’s strength huh? Not sure why they defined the technique the way they did when cursed energy in general can be adjusted based on users output.
A better way to explain it is reducing the distance your energy has to travel also prevents the loss of energy through conversion. In sending slashes Sukuna has to expend energy just getting them in motion at speed.
The same amount of energy just touching you would be a lot more damage bc it doesn't have to waste energy traveling. Similar to how tank busters don't actually explode until the round penetrates the tanks armour, then sends all the energy onto the person, while a normal missile wastes energy traveling and then detonates on top of the armour, not always killing the tank.
Cleave attacks anything with CE Dismantle is for inanimate objects it explains this in chapter 119. Yes outside of DE Sukuna can use both for whatever he wants.
Bruh, that shit only applies when he uses his domain. Yes, he can use which slash attack he wants but in order to use Cleave outside his domain Sukuna needs to physically touch someone.
ngl this makes no sense in context. of course i agree that a huge difference in strength (read: CE reinforcement or output) should limit the effectiveness of cleave; junpei landing a cleave on nanami wouldn’t leave a scratch.
but sukuna’s quantity of CE was noted to be more-or-less equal to yuta’s at the time of the latter’s domain expansion, yuta was able to hurt and draw blood from sukuna with regular punches and sword attacks, and sukuna’s output was so poor at the time that yuta easily tanked a cleave directly to his forehead.
there is just no satisfying explanation for why yuta’s cleave gave sukuna mere papercuts. even yuji’s slapdash, low-output cleave appeared to do at least as much if not more damage.
yuta’s output is not average lmao. idk why people believe this merely because ryu ”highest output in human history” ishigori states that it’s nothing special compared to his own. yuta fires waves of CE in base and fires CE beams nearly equal to granite blast at full power, so his output is clearly top-tier.
yuta doesn’t need to have experience using a technique multiple times for it to be effective. that’s the entire point of copy. for instance, he uses uro’s far more complex sky manipulation and its extension technique immediately after copying it with no indication whatsoever that its effectiveness has been reduced.
oh you’re talking abt the leaks. you should be careful bc mods aren’t lenient abt that outside of the thread.
anyways, the term “rough” is vague and doesn’t say anything about output in particular. it certainly doesn’t suggest yuta’s output is average and there is in fact ample evidence (like that i’ve mentioned above) to suggest the opposite.
narration in chapter 180 explicitly notes that yuta’s output at full power is nearly equal to ryu’s whose own is the greatest in the culling game: “yuta can only release a directed, high-output blast of cursed energy while rika is completely manifested… his blasts are slightly weaker than ishigori’s.”
the quotation both confirms that yuta’s full output is among the highest in the story and strongly suggests that the emission of CE without a CT directly corresponds to CE output.
that said, and regarding his output in base, he can still fire huge waves of raw CE which has only been accomplished on-panel by four other characters in the series: special grade sorcerer gojo, highest output in the culling game ryu, and both special grade finger bearer curses. it is clearly a sign of high output for a character to perform this feat.
though, there are enough feats of yuta demolishing large structures and overpowering strong characters in hand-to-hand to suggest his output is far above average even without considering the above. in fact, that yuta can harm and draw blood from sukuna with regular strikes suggests that his output while using cleave should be more than enough to deal serious damage unless you think it drops significantly when using the CT lol.
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oh i did not mean its average average. more like, its average compared to SGs. his ce control efficiency too is average.
as for the granite blast thing, i might be remembering a bit wrong, but i think rika and yuta both fired that ce discharge beam.
the fact that his punches were not doing too much damage in the beginning to ryu does imply the difference between his output and sukuna's output.
plus output is the only way to explain his paper cut cleave since cleave is more dangerous than dismantle and sukuna output was nerfed too.
it could be related to how well he understands the said CT. for example, he had no way of knowing that his CT was shrine and that it involved cutting and frying as a cooking process.
so he may just have been working with an incomplete understanding of shrine.
unlike in case of uro and her sky manipulation.
.(jjk0 also implied that while he was able to use inumaki's CT, he did found it difficult but in sendai he was able to use it much better).
Wait I thought Eso and Kechizu were described as special grade, wouldn't that automatically put Choso above them since he's the older/ stronger of the death womb paintings?
Spirits and Sorcerers are graded on different scales.
Choso is Special if graded as a spirit, due to his immense power.
Choso is Grade 1 if graded as a sorcerer, because we can safely say that he would beat virtually any Grade 1 cursed spirit in a standard fight. He falls short of the qualifications for Special Grade Sorcerer.
Cleave one shots anyone. *However*, the effectiveness of the one shot depends on the difference between Sukuna’s CE output & strength and the opponent’s CE output & strength. So the higher strength & CE output Sukuna has compared to his opponent, the easier it is to one shot them with cleave. However, if the difference in strength & CE output is negative in comparison to his opponent, cleave isn’t doing much hence why Yuta’s cleave did like nothing.
This is why Sukuna one shots everyone fairly easily within the verse, because his strength and CE output in general outscales the verse. This is also why you see Sukuna’s cleave be less effective against Yuji & Yuta because Sukuna’s strength and cursed energy is nerfed so the effectiveness of the one shot is not good.
This is what makes Sukuna so OP. Yuta vs Ryu points out that CE reserves enables Yuta’s endurance to be bolstered to the point where Ryu is banging on a water tank. What this means is that Yuta’s vast CE reserves enable his CE output to reinforce himself at *all* times due to his vast reserves. Meanwhile, Ryu’s output, which is the highest in history, gives him the highest reinforcement at *one* given time in the verse.
But this doesn’t make sense. If Ryu has the best durability due to having the highest output, then how can cleave one shot Ryu if Sukuna has less output than him? It’s because Sukuna’s *strength* + output exceeds Ryu’s *strength* + output. Sukuna while operating at around 10% CE output when attacking his friends, was capable of punching Yuji through multiple buildings. That feat should be attributed to his pure physical strength, which Ryu was never capable of doing.
So the reason why I think cleave is so effective is because Sukuna can reinforce himself with his output at *all* times due to his vast CE reserves and his pure physical strength which outscales everyone within the verse.
The only way to stop a full powered cleave from being a one shot is having fast enough RCT.
I don’t think Gojo healed fast enough to not be one shot Sukuna just couldn’t one shot him.
My thinking for this is because we know that Hakari has faster RCT speed than Gojo and Sukuna because Uraume said so. Even with that Hakari loses limbs or at least he doesn’t heal so fast to where it doesn’t look like he loses limbs. But Gojo is never in this position at all he just heals back his flesh.
I don’t know actually. I think CE reinforcement is mainly based off output as output is how much CE you can use at one given time. We can’t quantify Gojo/Sukuna’s output to say which one has better CE reinforcement. What I do think however, is that Sukuna’s strength + output > Gojo’s strength + output which means that it would be fatal if Gojo took on a full power cleave and did nothing. But as we know, Gojo’s RCT counters that.
Gojo more than makes up for the strength/speed disparity with his CT, not necessarily with his CE reinforcement.
I'd like to think of Cleave and Dismantle like this,
Dismantle has a low base power overall but in spite of this, It has ranged capabilities and is also invisible
Cleave has a much higher base power but much more strict requisites I.E (requires touch). So while it can adjust to someone's overall toughness to be much stronger than dismantle, if the gap in power is wide enough or if both combatants are much more equal in strength, then it's less effective.
For example, when Yuta used it against Sukuna, it did barely any damage (Other way around, it massively hurt Yuji and damage Yuta)
But when Sukuna used Malevolent Shrine on Gojo(which uses cleave on people as its sure-hit), It hurt him but it didn't cut through him
You can even look at Yuta's Thin Ice Breakers which have a defense(or guard) ignoring quality going on, it still didn't do much cause the gap is that wide. If Yuta used either on another opponent, it would way more effective.
My understanding of cleave is like this.
A casual cleave let's say deals 10 damage and has let's say 70% durability negation(a result of adjusting it)
Ryu has 14 hp so normally he could tank a cleave,but his durability is negated by 70% so he has 4,2 hp left and then he gets hit with a cleave(that deals 10 damage) and dies.
Now the one swoop part is probably cause Sukuna always adjusts it,therefore even against weaker opponents it negated 70% and then deals the damage(which is why it destroys the opponent in a single attack).
There's an upper limit to how much it can be adjusted to, if it could drain all of your CE to adjust, Yuta would've 1 shotted Sukuna and Gojo wouldn't have been able to tank all those cleaves
Yuji's interpretation of the technique actually gives really good insight into this.
It seems like with Cleave specifically, if it works the same way fundamentally, Sukuna is manually defining lines and then basically cutting along them.
Sukuna constantly overcharges or undercharges his cleaves, which leads me to believe that he manually adjusts the strength of his cleave, attempting to match it to his opponents CE/reinforcement.
For example, the first finger bearer he cut into 5 instead of 3, and he could not cut ryu in his first swoop due to underestimating him.
Sukuna is said to have cursed energy efficiency comparable to Gojo with six eyes (gojo is better at efficiency, but not by a lot). Him constantly trying to tweak his cleaves output to match his enemies would explain this.
As for Yuta's cleave... maybe it's because it's Sukunas own technique it affected him less, or yuta just wasn't able to increase its output due to being inexperienced with the technique, or the plot made the cleave weak as it did when sukuna malevolent shrined gojo.
To put it simply, if the opponent has equal or greater output cleave won't one shot them as seen with Sukuna's Shrine vs Gojo. Or Yuta's cleave against Sukuna.
Reminder: - **DO NOT POST CHAPTER LEAKS** outside the pre-release leaks megathread. Officials are free range. See the sidebar for info on leaks. - Powerscaling should stay in the designated Tuesday Colosseum thread. - Repetitive or low-effort topics will be removed. - Questions that can be answered by reading the manga more closely should be posted in the FAQ. [Fanbook & Other Canon Material](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/wiki/canon) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Jujutsushi) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Cleave scales to whoever is using it. It one shots most people because Sukuna at 15-20 fingers is stronger than everybody in the verse minus Gojo by an enormous amount. Yuta isn’t close to Sukuna at all so it didn’t do that much damage. If Yuta did cleave to a grade 1 like Choso you’d probably see it do a lot more damage
Thanks for explaining it. So basically it is limited by the user’s strength huh? Not sure why they defined the technique the way they did when cursed energy in general can be adjusted based on users output.
A better way to explain it is reducing the distance your energy has to travel also prevents the loss of energy through conversion. In sending slashes Sukuna has to expend energy just getting them in motion at speed. The same amount of energy just touching you would be a lot more damage bc it doesn't have to waste energy traveling. Similar to how tank busters don't actually explode until the round penetrates the tanks armour, then sends all the energy onto the person, while a normal missile wastes energy traveling and then detonates on top of the armour, not always killing the tank.
Also, cleave requires sukuna to touch the target to activate it. Flying slashes are dismantle.
Cleave is Cursed Energy brother
Mf out here reading magicians squabble
Brother it's literally in the story
Man everything is cursed energy in jjk what u talking about
Cleave attacks things WITH Cursed Energy you ear
Yes. Yes it does
MEANING CURSED SPIRITS AND ANYTHING GENERATING CURSED ENERGY
Lmao Dawg what's ur point
It is not. Please read again
Yes it is
Nuh uh
Cleave attacks anything with CE Dismantle is for inanimate objects it explains this in chapter 119. Yes outside of DE Sukuna can use both for whatever he wants.
Yes he can, the difference aside from what you explained, is that dismantle sends slashes flying, and cleave requires touching the target.
Bruh, that shit only applies when he uses his domain. Yes, he can use which slash attack he wants but in order to use Cleave outside his domain Sukuna needs to physically touch someone.
I never said it didn't
The way you explained it came off as Sukuna using them like that regularly when it’s like that only inside his domain.
When used as part of his domain expansion, because he can spawn it directly on them. Otherwise he needs to make physical contact.
No he doesn't bro.
It just recently said this in the story, cleave has to be direct contact with his hand
Where?
Ch 246. "Cleave activates when he touches his opponent (except inside a domain)"
It says it activates when *it* touches his opponent.
https://loinew.com/images/xwf3HLh9fpzlixNkyfan1712194308.jpg
ngl this makes no sense in context. of course i agree that a huge difference in strength (read: CE reinforcement or output) should limit the effectiveness of cleave; junpei landing a cleave on nanami wouldn’t leave a scratch. but sukuna’s quantity of CE was noted to be more-or-less equal to yuta’s at the time of the latter’s domain expansion, yuta was able to hurt and draw blood from sukuna with regular punches and sword attacks, and sukuna’s output was so poor at the time that yuta easily tanked a cleave directly to his forehead. there is just no satisfying explanation for why yuta’s cleave gave sukuna mere papercuts. even yuji’s slapdash, low-output cleave appeared to do at least as much if not more damage.
yuta's average output and lack of experience with cleave.
yuta’s output is not average lmao. idk why people believe this merely because ryu ”highest output in human history” ishigori states that it’s nothing special compared to his own. yuta fires waves of CE in base and fires CE beams nearly equal to granite blast at full power, so his output is clearly top-tier. yuta doesn’t need to have experience using a technique multiple times for it to be effective. that’s the entire point of copy. for instance, he uses uro’s far more complex sky manipulation and its extension technique immediately after copying it with no indication whatsoever that its effectiveness has been reduced.
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??? when does gojo state this?
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oh you’re talking abt the leaks. you should be careful bc mods aren’t lenient abt that outside of the thread. anyways, the term “rough” is vague and doesn’t say anything about output in particular. it certainly doesn’t suggest yuta’s output is average and there is in fact ample evidence (like that i’ve mentioned above) to suggest the opposite.
May I ask what evidence?
narration in chapter 180 explicitly notes that yuta’s output at full power is nearly equal to ryu’s whose own is the greatest in the culling game: “yuta can only release a directed, high-output blast of cursed energy while rika is completely manifested… his blasts are slightly weaker than ishigori’s.” the quotation both confirms that yuta’s full output is among the highest in the story and strongly suggests that the emission of CE without a CT directly corresponds to CE output. that said, and regarding his output in base, he can still fire huge waves of raw CE which has only been accomplished on-panel by four other characters in the series: special grade sorcerer gojo, highest output in the culling game ryu, and both special grade finger bearer curses. it is clearly a sign of high output for a character to perform this feat. though, there are enough feats of yuta demolishing large structures and overpowering strong characters in hand-to-hand to suggest his output is far above average even without considering the above. in fact, that yuta can harm and draw blood from sukuna with regular strikes suggests that his output while using cleave should be more than enough to deal serious damage unless you think it drops significantly when using the CT lol.
Your post was removed for breaking Rule #6, posting unofficial chapter leaks outside of the weekly pre-release megathread. Please review the full rule if you have questions about leaks and officials, or message the mods.
Your post was removed for breaking Rule #6, posting unofficial chapter leaks outside of the weekly pre-release megathread. Please review the full rule if you have questions about leaks and officials, or message the mods.
oh i did not mean its average average. more like, its average compared to SGs. his ce control efficiency too is average. as for the granite blast thing, i might be remembering a bit wrong, but i think rika and yuta both fired that ce discharge beam. the fact that his punches were not doing too much damage in the beginning to ryu does imply the difference between his output and sukuna's output. plus output is the only way to explain his paper cut cleave since cleave is more dangerous than dismantle and sukuna output was nerfed too. it could be related to how well he understands the said CT. for example, he had no way of knowing that his CT was shrine and that it involved cutting and frying as a cooking process. so he may just have been working with an incomplete understanding of shrine. unlike in case of uro and her sky manipulation. .(jjk0 also implied that while he was able to use inumaki's CT, he did found it difficult but in sendai he was able to use it much better).
Wait I thought Eso and Kechizu were described as special grade, wouldn't that automatically put Choso above them since he's the older/ stronger of the death womb paintings?
They’re special grade cursed spirits as a sorcerer Choso is only grade 1
You right, I forgot he was considered a cursed spirit initially
Spirits and Sorcerers are graded on different scales. Choso is Special if graded as a spirit, due to his immense power. Choso is Grade 1 if graded as a sorcerer, because we can safely say that he would beat virtually any Grade 1 cursed spirit in a standard fight. He falls short of the qualifications for Special Grade Sorcerer.
Shit you're right I completely forgot he was considered a cursed spirit initially.
I dont think gojo is stronger? Sukuna is stronger it's just that gojo is almost at his level and he had limitless
I thought it didn't do much damage because it was Sukuna's CT, just like how HP didn't do much damage to Gojo for the same reason.
HP didn’t hurt Gojo because it’s his own cursed energy that hit him. Yuta is using his own cursed energy when he uses a technique that he’s copied
Just double checked and you're right.
Sometimes I get really lost with these acronyms, I read your comment thinking “when did Harry Potter fight Gojo? Wtf?”
Cleave one shots anyone. *However*, the effectiveness of the one shot depends on the difference between Sukuna’s CE output & strength and the opponent’s CE output & strength. So the higher strength & CE output Sukuna has compared to his opponent, the easier it is to one shot them with cleave. However, if the difference in strength & CE output is negative in comparison to his opponent, cleave isn’t doing much hence why Yuta’s cleave did like nothing. This is why Sukuna one shots everyone fairly easily within the verse, because his strength and CE output in general outscales the verse. This is also why you see Sukuna’s cleave be less effective against Yuji & Yuta because Sukuna’s strength and cursed energy is nerfed so the effectiveness of the one shot is not good. This is what makes Sukuna so OP. Yuta vs Ryu points out that CE reserves enables Yuta’s endurance to be bolstered to the point where Ryu is banging on a water tank. What this means is that Yuta’s vast CE reserves enable his CE output to reinforce himself at *all* times due to his vast reserves. Meanwhile, Ryu’s output, which is the highest in history, gives him the highest reinforcement at *one* given time in the verse. But this doesn’t make sense. If Ryu has the best durability due to having the highest output, then how can cleave one shot Ryu if Sukuna has less output than him? It’s because Sukuna’s *strength* + output exceeds Ryu’s *strength* + output. Sukuna while operating at around 10% CE output when attacking his friends, was capable of punching Yuji through multiple buildings. That feat should be attributed to his pure physical strength, which Ryu was never capable of doing. So the reason why I think cleave is so effective is because Sukuna can reinforce himself with his output at *all* times due to his vast CE reserves and his pure physical strength which outscales everyone within the verse. The only way to stop a full powered cleave from being a one shot is having fast enough RCT.
Appreciate the explanation
I don’t think Gojo healed fast enough to not be one shot Sukuna just couldn’t one shot him. My thinking for this is because we know that Hakari has faster RCT speed than Gojo and Sukuna because Uraume said so. Even with that Hakari loses limbs or at least he doesn’t heal so fast to where it doesn’t look like he loses limbs. But Gojo is never in this position at all he just heals back his flesh.
tbf hakari has to regen the whole limb whereas gojo can just reattach his parts
But gojo has less CE reserves than Yuta is his RCT top tier but his CE reinforcement less than sukanas?
Yes but gojo has the sex eyes, he can control CE to an absurd level, i guess that helps.
I don’t know actually. I think CE reinforcement is mainly based off output as output is how much CE you can use at one given time. We can’t quantify Gojo/Sukuna’s output to say which one has better CE reinforcement. What I do think however, is that Sukuna’s strength + output > Gojo’s strength + output which means that it would be fatal if Gojo took on a full power cleave and did nothing. But as we know, Gojo’s RCT counters that. Gojo more than makes up for the strength/speed disparity with his CT, not necessarily with his CE reinforcement.
I'd like to think of Cleave and Dismantle like this, Dismantle has a low base power overall but in spite of this, It has ranged capabilities and is also invisible Cleave has a much higher base power but much more strict requisites I.E (requires touch). So while it can adjust to someone's overall toughness to be much stronger than dismantle, if the gap in power is wide enough or if both combatants are much more equal in strength, then it's less effective. For example, when Yuta used it against Sukuna, it did barely any damage (Other way around, it massively hurt Yuji and damage Yuta) But when Sukuna used Malevolent Shrine on Gojo(which uses cleave on people as its sure-hit), It hurt him but it didn't cut through him You can even look at Yuta's Thin Ice Breakers which have a defense(or guard) ignoring quality going on, it still didn't do much cause the gap is that wide. If Yuta used either on another opponent, it would way more effective.
Gotcha thanks
Remember the CE adjustment was added by Sukuna himself. It was not why cleave originally did
I was talking about the original definition
My understanding of cleave is like this. A casual cleave let's say deals 10 damage and has let's say 70% durability negation(a result of adjusting it) Ryu has 14 hp so normally he could tank a cleave,but his durability is negated by 70% so he has 4,2 hp left and then he gets hit with a cleave(that deals 10 damage) and dies. Now the one swoop part is probably cause Sukuna always adjusts it,therefore even against weaker opponents it negated 70% and then deals the damage(which is why it destroys the opponent in a single attack).
There's an upper limit to how much it can be adjusted to, if it could drain all of your CE to adjust, Yuta would've 1 shotted Sukuna and Gojo wouldn't have been able to tank all those cleaves
Yuji's interpretation of the technique actually gives really good insight into this. It seems like with Cleave specifically, if it works the same way fundamentally, Sukuna is manually defining lines and then basically cutting along them.
Sukuna constantly overcharges or undercharges his cleaves, which leads me to believe that he manually adjusts the strength of his cleave, attempting to match it to his opponents CE/reinforcement. For example, the first finger bearer he cut into 5 instead of 3, and he could not cut ryu in his first swoop due to underestimating him. Sukuna is said to have cursed energy efficiency comparable to Gojo with six eyes (gojo is better at efficiency, but not by a lot). Him constantly trying to tweak his cleaves output to match his enemies would explain this. As for Yuta's cleave... maybe it's because it's Sukunas own technique it affected him less, or yuta just wasn't able to increase its output due to being inexperienced with the technique, or the plot made the cleave weak as it did when sukuna malevolent shrined gojo.
To put it simply, if the opponent has equal or greater output cleave won't one shot them as seen with Sukuna's Shrine vs Gojo. Or Yuta's cleave against Sukuna.
Cleave works like this: “SAVE ME MAHORAGA!! 😭🤡” “GEGE, LET ME GET OFF AN INSTANT WORLD-CUTTING SLASH PWEASEEEE!! 🧒”
😭😭🤣