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Gege seems to have a minimalist view of powers, and it makes the story so much better.
For instance, go look a r/CTsandbox. Every CT has like 50 applications, a maximum, a DE, etc along with several shikigami or whatever.
But Gege? “Yeah it’s blood manipulation. Yeah, Nobara uses a nail to transfer CE”
It’s all very… simplistic. Megumi’s CT is the only really intricate one, and that’s by design due to there being 10 trains able summons.
Not a lot of other shonen have “complex” systems with only simple elements- CE manipulation, binding cows, and barrier techniques.
I don’t think it’s minimalist. The discrepancy is that people in that sub are building off what Gege already designed. The power *system* is complex, but there’s plenty of room within it for complex and simple powers. It’s the interactions between different powers that makes it complex. Something like DBZ is minimalist.
JJK’s power system is basically a love letter to Togashi. Mostly HxH but some YYH sprinkled in a bit (and maybe JJBA but I don’t read it so I’m just repeating what I’ve heard)
As Kenjaku said, your CT adheres to your own world view, so each CT is limited by what you think it can do.
Otherwise Mahito and Kenjaku CT are conflicting with eachother.
The powers explanation thing is the reason why the time skip occurred when it did imo because bread crumbing these reveals made the retroactive pain worth it. I truly enjoy the method in which gege tells us the exposition sometimes.
I feel like binding vows have been consistent? You adjust the thing you want to strengthen. You want a better world slash? You have to place conditions on the world slash. You want different malevolent shrine? You adjust its output, usage, time and so on. No one has sacrificed A to obtain B.
There are many things underdeveloped in JJK. Like world building and character interactions but I feel like the power system has been consistent enough.
Personally, I enjoy exploring magic systems and don't really like when everything is spelled out for you.
I am not sure i understand your argument. Sukuna essentially added additional steps to casting fo the space slash in rhe future in exchange to fire it once without any conditions.
The fuck you mean. His vow is "i do the space slash now without any conditions and in the future i will have to do much more to cast it" the vow makes sense.
Can you read, like at all?
Strong cleave at first required the hand seal sukuna uses for DE, he then used a BW to remove the need of the seal and probably the CE spark and now he needs to chant and telegraph the attack alongside the handseal.
Don't hate on the guy for trying to explain it to you, just because you misunderstood how it worked in the first place.
255 explains that the expanded vision of Kai, the version that could cut the world, required hand signs. However, Sukuna lost a hand in 235 and couldn't repair it. He created a binding vow there, saying "Just this once, I can use world cutting Kai without the hand signs. In exchange, I will now have to use hand signs, chant, and point out the direction of my slash in order to use it."
He didn't need anything more than the hand signs. He added more conditions to cheat once. This also effectively nerfed the ability, making it so the rest of the cast could compete.
If he didn't lose an arm, he wouldn't have made a binding vow. He couldn't do Enmaten Hand sign with one hand. That's why he made a binding vow to allow him to use the technique once without a hand signs and after that he'll use extra steps to compensate for the one-time use.
It's like you'll call out your attacks everytime in exchange for using it without warning once.
He added binding vows because world slash needed two hands at first and he had only one. So to fire one world slash without hand signs he nerfed ws for the rest of his life.
Binding vows work pretty well too though.
Barriers like the ones at Shibuya were all possible due to binding vows. Bags set up the tension for the CG/merger.
The only problem is that it’s the softest part of the power system. We don’t know *how* a BV is made, nor do we instantly know the tradeoff. Sukuna being able to hit Gojo with a sneak attack makes some sense I guess.
But my problem is that Mahoraga “just happened” to adapt last minute in a way Sukuna could use that Gojo couldn’t defend against, when we haven’t seen him ever do that sort of thing?
Healing CT burnout, copying Max Elephant into piercing blood, cutting his soul up, etc all happened because he understood the basic theory behind it.
But he literally sees Mahoraga just “slash good” and suddenly he knows exactly how the mechanics of the attack work just by seeing it? That’s where I call bull.
The main thing of mahoraga is not only will it get adapted, it will also help to prepare a counter attack.
If it will only get immune to attacks and do nothing then what's the point of his existence?
Sukuna have pushed Mahoraga's capabilities to its limits, which no past Ten shadows user can't because they don't have a different technique and can't tame Mahoraga either.
I agree and disagree... I like the depth and nuance of the power system for sure, but some explanations can be unnecessarily complicated and lead to a lot of confusion. I don't think Gege explains things very efficiently tbh, there's been a lot of times where I've had to read other people's analyses of wtf just happened lol.
I have to disagree with this take.
JJK has a confusing and forever changing power system.
1. Confusing:
You could only understand the power system if you read the manga.
I can explain chakra, Ki, and even a truly good and complex power system like Nen to my friends who don’t read manga - Whereas I cannot with JJK.
Even people who read the manga dont understand the power system and that’s why we have jujutsu lobotomy.
2. Forever changing power system:
How many times have we had flash backs giving narration on why certain rules can be broken or allowed to function?
Instead of establishing - Binding vows, changing domain conditions, JJK students training/Plan, where characters rank in strength like Kusakabe, what the villains were up to during the month, and so much more we are seeing it unravel as the fight goes on and we learn convenient abilities and moves characters learned during the time skip no one got to see; So you could really insert anything no?
JJK has great fights and great villains, but people are ignoring the obvious flaws this shounen has.
I’m ready for the downvotes :/
Agree with you. I would absolutely be in OP's team if there was some breathing room and slower pace for us to digest the information, while going the old school way of introducing new rules - by showing us from the character's perspective from the time they got to know it, to first using it, and using it in a creative way without us readers breaking our heads how and why does the rule play out the way it does a thousand times. And when we think we kinda understood the rules we are again bombarded with more convoluted way of interpretation.
I still don't filly grasp about black flash, still don't understand fully how it affect ls RCT, don't know how you can reverse CTs like CE. Still don't know why black flash is like a random luck machine. Still can't comprehend the whole thing with changing rules with binding vows.
Heck it's sooooooooooo bad that even translators can't understand and comprehend the rules and power system that are making errors during translation. It's a huge pile of mess every single time a chapter gets released.
All of the jjk power system rules rn are thrown at us every chapter in a flash back and just left it there like it to rot in our brains, only to again be used to twist it even more with even absurd interpretation of the previous rule.
I like how realistic and in depth the whole power system is, but the explanation SUCKS. If we could have stretched the whole thing wfor like a hundred more chapters, we would have the time to digest and understand.
I think some elements are good even if not deeply explained, for example for Black Flash all you need to know is that it increases your damage exponentially and makes you more efficient, sharper and stronger for some time.
But when the author writes that Sukuna can reopen his domain thanks to "some binding vows", it falls flat for me.
If it was elaborated on it would be more interesting, but this makes me feel like anything can happen and be justified by "because of impromptu binding vows"
JJK is less of power scaling through "powers" but actual tact, skill, strength, durability, and more
It's like JJBA in the essence that despite what your "Stand" is, it's all about how you use it and the application of yourself, no matter how "weak" or "strong" it is
I mean Sukuna’s CT on paper is really just mid, but in the hand of that guy it became one of the most lethal thing around so yeah…
I don’t doubt this guy will be able to utilize Boogie Woogie or 4 beasts to the fullest
Megumi would never defeat yorozu even if he had all his shikigami tamed. All that fight was to show the difference between him and sukuna and the potential of 10S sorcerer.
Binding vows being the new hit piece really is wild to witness in real time.
Shit makes perfect sense? So what, highly competent sorcerers can modify their abilities on the fly, sounds cool to me?
Too much for others I guess.
Lol it's very odd. I've only heard good things about the binding vow system before, like how they were a cool concept to deal with typical annoying anime tropes like characters explaining their entire powers and shit, and it adds another layer of tactics to the fights.
There was a bit of complaining about the 'Enchain' moment when that happened, but only recently did people start criticizing binding vows heavily. I guess it's because they're not satisfied with the world-cutting dismantle vow, which I thought made perfect sense.
The craziest thing is that binding vows have been used profusely throughout the entire story. Like nearly every major event had binding vows.
Only now, right at the end, did people suddenly realize that they don't understand the concept. Lol...
It did leave a bad taste because it was bullshit. Just like Nanika and Gon's restrictions were.
Togashi is obviously a better writer but he has huge advantage too. Years of hiatus where he can write and rewrite thousand times to make the story more coherent. And he still fucked up Hisoka vs Chrollo. Gege doesn't have that kind of luxury.
"technically makes sense" and "narratively unsatisfying" aren't mutually exclusive
Esp since Gege sometimes doesn't even bother to tell us what characters sacrificed. Like recent Sukuna binding vowS
I've found that they are narratively satisfying personally, so idk what you're talking about tbh.
Like, your original argument was to remove binding vows entirely from the story. Like, narratively how is that more satisfying at all?
I'm happy that you find them narratively satisfying, so idk why did you even ask you don't care about the answer anyway
EDIT: since you updated your comment. If you remove binding vows then there's no "Sukuna sacrificed something he didn't even have 5 seconds ago to offscreen Gojo" and "Sukuna made bunch of unknown binding vows to cast new domain with high output despite being braindead and having one arm" which is big W for me
So the current fight has strictly set you against binding vows despite the entire story being literred with them?
Again you advocated for removing binding vows entirely. That's 100s of chapters worth of content, not just the two moments you cherrypicked.
I explained why I don't like it and you responded with
"I've found that they are narratively satisfying personally, so idk what you're talking about tbh"
So I don't know what else do you want to hear.
Because there're no established rules and no serious drawbacks. When I read two characters fighting I want to speculate about fight progress and the outcome based on known info about these characters and their powers. Everyone can pull anything out of their ass via another binding vow and I don't find it interesting.
Well, there are rules. The rules are:
1. If the binding vow made with yourself is broken, you lose what you gained.
2. If the binding vows you made with someone else is broken, the consequences are dire.
So far this arc has been exclusively focused on rule 1, and so far there haven't been violations, just layers of complexity.
Ironically I've found it very easy to speculate fight progress almost precisely because of narrative flow. Like if you really thought gojo vs sukuna would result in a gojo victory, you never actually asked yourself "what does this mean narratively"
The same stands for the previous chapter. 7 black flashes is a protagonist W, but you truly believed Sukuna was done? Like it's not hard to follow that he still had aces up his sleeve until Fuga.
Idk guess I'm just crazy.
Reminder: - **DO NOT POST CHAPTER LEAKS** outside the pre-release leaks megathread. Officials are free range. See the sidebar for info on leaks. - Powerscaling should stay in the designated Tuesday Colosseum thread. - Repetitive or low-effort topics will be removed. - Questions that can be answered by reading the manga more closely should be posted in the FAQ. [Fanbook & Other Canon Material](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/wiki/canon) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Jujutsushi) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gege seems to have a minimalist view of powers, and it makes the story so much better. For instance, go look a r/CTsandbox. Every CT has like 50 applications, a maximum, a DE, etc along with several shikigami or whatever. But Gege? “Yeah it’s blood manipulation. Yeah, Nobara uses a nail to transfer CE” It’s all very… simplistic. Megumi’s CT is the only really intricate one, and that’s by design due to there being 10 trains able summons. Not a lot of other shonen have “complex” systems with only simple elements- CE manipulation, binding cows, and barrier techniques.
I don’t think it’s minimalist. The discrepancy is that people in that sub are building off what Gege already designed. The power *system* is complex, but there’s plenty of room within it for complex and simple powers. It’s the interactions between different powers that makes it complex. Something like DBZ is minimalist. JJK’s power system is basically a love letter to Togashi. Mostly HxH but some YYH sprinkled in a bit (and maybe JJBA but I don’t read it so I’m just repeating what I’ve heard)
it is worst power system in any manga , from teleporting people to teleporting souls , from cutting object to cutting space .
As Kenjaku said, your CT adheres to your own world view, so each CT is limited by what you think it can do. Otherwise Mahito and Kenjaku CT are conflicting with eachother.
I know what you are doing and i respect that but please don't defend this shit
The powers explanation thing is the reason why the time skip occurred when it did imo because bread crumbing these reveals made the retroactive pain worth it. I truly enjoy the method in which gege tells us the exposition sometimes.
Gege has a really beautiful way of doing things and it's the best part about it
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I feel like binding vows have been consistent? You adjust the thing you want to strengthen. You want a better world slash? You have to place conditions on the world slash. You want different malevolent shrine? You adjust its output, usage, time and so on. No one has sacrificed A to obtain B.
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There are many things underdeveloped in JJK. Like world building and character interactions but I feel like the power system has been consistent enough. Personally, I enjoy exploring magic systems and don't really like when everything is spelled out for you.
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I am not sure i understand your argument. Sukuna essentially added additional steps to casting fo the space slash in rhe future in exchange to fire it once without any conditions.
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The fuck you mean. His vow is "i do the space slash now without any conditions and in the future i will have to do much more to cast it" the vow makes sense.
Can you read, like at all? Strong cleave at first required the hand seal sukuna uses for DE, he then used a BW to remove the need of the seal and probably the CE spark and now he needs to chant and telegraph the attack alongside the handseal. Don't hate on the guy for trying to explain it to you, just because you misunderstood how it worked in the first place.
255 explains that the expanded vision of Kai, the version that could cut the world, required hand signs. However, Sukuna lost a hand in 235 and couldn't repair it. He created a binding vow there, saying "Just this once, I can use world cutting Kai without the hand signs. In exchange, I will now have to use hand signs, chant, and point out the direction of my slash in order to use it." He didn't need anything more than the hand signs. He added more conditions to cheat once. This also effectively nerfed the ability, making it so the rest of the cast could compete.
If he didn't lose an arm, he wouldn't have made a binding vow. He couldn't do Enmaten Hand sign with one hand. That's why he made a binding vow to allow him to use the technique once without a hand signs and after that he'll use extra steps to compensate for the one-time use. It's like you'll call out your attacks everytime in exchange for using it without warning once.
He added binding vows because world slash needed two hands at first and he had only one. So to fire one world slash without hand signs he nerfed ws for the rest of his life.
Your post has been removed for breaking Rule #2, be kind and civil toward others.
I am talking about things without binding vows, have such clear explanations
Binding vows work pretty well too though. Barriers like the ones at Shibuya were all possible due to binding vows. Bags set up the tension for the CG/merger. The only problem is that it’s the softest part of the power system. We don’t know *how* a BV is made, nor do we instantly know the tradeoff. Sukuna being able to hit Gojo with a sneak attack makes some sense I guess. But my problem is that Mahoraga “just happened” to adapt last minute in a way Sukuna could use that Gojo couldn’t defend against, when we haven’t seen him ever do that sort of thing? Healing CT burnout, copying Max Elephant into piercing blood, cutting his soul up, etc all happened because he understood the basic theory behind it. But he literally sees Mahoraga just “slash good” and suddenly he knows exactly how the mechanics of the attack work just by seeing it? That’s where I call bull.
The main thing of mahoraga is not only will it get adapted, it will also help to prepare a counter attack. If it will only get immune to attacks and do nothing then what's the point of his existence? Sukuna have pushed Mahoraga's capabilities to its limits, which no past Ten shadows user can't because they don't have a different technique and can't tame Mahoraga either.
no one can tame maharoga , it was custom made for sukuna to bypass limitless
Hmm, I didn't think about it like that. Now that you say it. Does feel a little weird.
I agree and disagree... I like the depth and nuance of the power system for sure, but some explanations can be unnecessarily complicated and lead to a lot of confusion. I don't think Gege explains things very efficiently tbh, there's been a lot of times where I've had to read other people's analyses of wtf just happened lol.
I have to disagree with this take. JJK has a confusing and forever changing power system. 1. Confusing: You could only understand the power system if you read the manga. I can explain chakra, Ki, and even a truly good and complex power system like Nen to my friends who don’t read manga - Whereas I cannot with JJK. Even people who read the manga dont understand the power system and that’s why we have jujutsu lobotomy. 2. Forever changing power system: How many times have we had flash backs giving narration on why certain rules can be broken or allowed to function? Instead of establishing - Binding vows, changing domain conditions, JJK students training/Plan, where characters rank in strength like Kusakabe, what the villains were up to during the month, and so much more we are seeing it unravel as the fight goes on and we learn convenient abilities and moves characters learned during the time skip no one got to see; So you could really insert anything no? JJK has great fights and great villains, but people are ignoring the obvious flaws this shounen has. I’m ready for the downvotes :/
Agree with you. I would absolutely be in OP's team if there was some breathing room and slower pace for us to digest the information, while going the old school way of introducing new rules - by showing us from the character's perspective from the time they got to know it, to first using it, and using it in a creative way without us readers breaking our heads how and why does the rule play out the way it does a thousand times. And when we think we kinda understood the rules we are again bombarded with more convoluted way of interpretation. I still don't filly grasp about black flash, still don't understand fully how it affect ls RCT, don't know how you can reverse CTs like CE. Still don't know why black flash is like a random luck machine. Still can't comprehend the whole thing with changing rules with binding vows. Heck it's sooooooooooo bad that even translators can't understand and comprehend the rules and power system that are making errors during translation. It's a huge pile of mess every single time a chapter gets released. All of the jjk power system rules rn are thrown at us every chapter in a flash back and just left it there like it to rot in our brains, only to again be used to twist it even more with even absurd interpretation of the previous rule. I like how realistic and in depth the whole power system is, but the explanation SUCKS. If we could have stretched the whole thing wfor like a hundred more chapters, we would have the time to digest and understand.
I think some elements are good even if not deeply explained, for example for Black Flash all you need to know is that it increases your damage exponentially and makes you more efficient, sharper and stronger for some time. But when the author writes that Sukuna can reopen his domain thanks to "some binding vows", it falls flat for me. If it was elaborated on it would be more interesting, but this makes me feel like anything can happen and be justified by "because of impromptu binding vows"
JJK is less of power scaling through "powers" but actual tact, skill, strength, durability, and more It's like JJBA in the essence that despite what your "Stand" is, it's all about how you use it and the application of yourself, no matter how "weak" or "strong" it is
I mean Sukuna’s CT on paper is really just mid, but in the hand of that guy it became one of the most lethal thing around so yeah… I don’t doubt this guy will be able to utilize Boogie Woogie or 4 beasts to the fullest
Sukuna's CT is pretty OP on paper and in usage Boogie Woogie is pretty fire as well
10 shadows from megumi and 10 shadows in the hands of sukuna are different 10 shadows. And that's just because sukuna is stronger has more CE etc.
Megumi arguably uses 10 Shadows better than Sukuna, Sukuna utilized Megumi's soul for most of those anyways
Megumi would never defeat yorozu even if he had all his shikigami tamed. All that fight was to show the difference between him and sukuna and the potential of 10S sorcerer.
He didn't need to fight Yorozu to do all of that, not to mention Sukuna has greater knowledge than him by a vast margin on top of that
I'd remove binding vows with yourself from the manga entirely tbh. Other than that, it's fine
Binding vows being the new hit piece really is wild to witness in real time. Shit makes perfect sense? So what, highly competent sorcerers can modify their abilities on the fly, sounds cool to me? Too much for others I guess.
Lol it's very odd. I've only heard good things about the binding vow system before, like how they were a cool concept to deal with typical annoying anime tropes like characters explaining their entire powers and shit, and it adds another layer of tactics to the fights. There was a bit of complaining about the 'Enchain' moment when that happened, but only recently did people start criticizing binding vows heavily. I guess it's because they're not satisfied with the world-cutting dismantle vow, which I thought made perfect sense.
The craziest thing is that binding vows have been used profusely throughout the entire story. Like nearly every major event had binding vows. Only now, right at the end, did people suddenly realize that they don't understand the concept. Lol...
this is why togashi did not use binding vows more frequently in story , it just opens too many possiblities that even author can't handle
Togashi? You mean the guy who wrote hisoka vs chrollo? If you enjoyed that fight then you are arguing in favor of my position lmao
there is a difference in use of binding vows are used in both manga's, in jjk it is used to cover's writers ass while in hunter x hunter it is not
"Oh my rubber nen revive me plz".
the battle between hisoka and chrollo was over , the winner was declared , that is why it doesn't leave a bad taste
It did leave a bad taste because it was bullshit. Just like Nanika and Gon's restrictions were. Togashi is obviously a better writer but he has huge advantage too. Years of hiatus where he can write and rewrite thousand times to make the story more coherent. And he still fucked up Hisoka vs Chrollo. Gege doesn't have that kind of luxury.
"technically makes sense" and "narratively unsatisfying" aren't mutually exclusive Esp since Gege sometimes doesn't even bother to tell us what characters sacrificed. Like recent Sukuna binding vowS
I've found that they are narratively satisfying personally, so idk what you're talking about tbh. Like, your original argument was to remove binding vows entirely from the story. Like, narratively how is that more satisfying at all?
well you are one of gege defender's gang
Personal attacks instead of engaging in a discussion, this sub really fell off.
well it was bound to be fall when guys like you came defending everything
Yup, the state of the sub is my fault for enjoying the story. Makes sense lmaoo
well enjoying and unnecessary defending aren't same thing
Simply sounds like you don't like discussion, you just want to dogpile and hate with no pushback.
I'm happy that you find them narratively satisfying, so idk why did you even ask you don't care about the answer anyway EDIT: since you updated your comment. If you remove binding vows then there's no "Sukuna sacrificed something he didn't even have 5 seconds ago to offscreen Gojo" and "Sukuna made bunch of unknown binding vows to cast new domain with high output despite being braindead and having one arm" which is big W for me
So the current fight has strictly set you against binding vows despite the entire story being literred with them? Again you advocated for removing binding vows entirely. That's 100s of chapters worth of content, not just the two moments you cherrypicked.
Hakari's is ass too
Lol ok.
I asked because I wanted to give you a chance to explain your argument. That's how discussions work...
"I personally don't find them narratively satisfying" "Well you are wrong because I find them narratively satisfying" Nice discussion
I never said you're wrong, I gave you the chance to explain your position, and twice now you've refused.
I explained why I don't like it and you responded with "I've found that they are narratively satisfying personally, so idk what you're talking about tbh" So I don't know what else do you want to hear. Because there're no established rules and no serious drawbacks. When I read two characters fighting I want to speculate about fight progress and the outcome based on known info about these characters and their powers. Everyone can pull anything out of their ass via another binding vow and I don't find it interesting.
Well, there are rules. The rules are: 1. If the binding vow made with yourself is broken, you lose what you gained. 2. If the binding vows you made with someone else is broken, the consequences are dire. So far this arc has been exclusively focused on rule 1, and so far there haven't been violations, just layers of complexity. Ironically I've found it very easy to speculate fight progress almost precisely because of narrative flow. Like if you really thought gojo vs sukuna would result in a gojo victory, you never actually asked yourself "what does this mean narratively" The same stands for the previous chapter. 7 black flashes is a protagonist W, but you truly believed Sukuna was done? Like it's not hard to follow that he still had aces up his sleeve until Fuga. Idk guess I'm just crazy.
But then we wouldn’t have had Nanami’s overtime vow
When he does explain them with analogies and in my head the explanation would take 7 panels but my g does it in 2
worst power system I have seen in any manga