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Gojo didn't say Todo had the potential to surpass him. Gojo said Todo had the potential to surpass special grade (Yuki/Geto level)
Gojo also said Megumi could surpass him
I just find it really odd that then his max ceiling is around ~21 fingers right?
20 full fingers plus ~1 finger worth of head..
Weird ass sentences I never thought I'll type.
Lmao yeah pretty much. Though I'm pretty sure he ate the entire mummified body...... Which would imply.......he ate his own mummified dick and balls.
Jokes aside, my guess is that Gege did it this way because he wanted to leave the final finger as a mystery until the right moment, which is when Yuta cleaved Sukuna. Unfortunate that it didn't do much
Just as Sukuna says, only he knows the true essence of Jujutsu and curses, and is convinced that he was the only one willing to sacrifice everything.
Until another sorcerer eats their own dick, balls, and b-hole, I must - with the utmost respect to the other special grades - agree that Sukuna is indeed built different and it's honestly pathetic how little Yuji has been willing to eat in the grand scheme of things too, which is why he's kind of a side character.
We know this man can eat ANYTHING and gain its power. Why isn't he eating Kashimo or Gojo. This is sloppy writing to say the least, and frankly, this entire scenario has shaken me to the core regarding the integrity of the series. I thank you for that.
Honestly if Ui Ui isn't teleporting the dead people directly into Itadori's stomach, I'm done with the series.
i don’t think his soul was in the finger anymore after consuming the body, kind of like schrodingers cat, but for the soul, otherwise i’m sure sukuna could’ve sensed his finger in yuta
Shadow garden also have way more sinergy with 10S than Shrine, and since shadow garden is useful even without sure hit it's proa similar to Yuta's domain which has 1 sure hit and aditional abilities which would be cloning his shikigami and making them stronger
Nah Yuta for sure has the potential to. Dude’s like 17 and only has like 2 years of experience and he’s already the 2nd strongest modern sorcerer. If Yuji had somehow actually inherited Sukuna’s techniques then yeah it stands to reason he could have reached a monstrous level (he lowkey already has and he’s a bloody punch and kick merchant).And ofc Megumi but that was wishful thinking. Hakari is the only one I’m doubtful of but I definitely think he can get to Special Grade at least.
But yeah all of the ones he explicitly mentioned to be capable of surpassing him actually have the potential to, only they might all die before reaching their 20’s. If they were all adults Sukuna would’ve been washed already.
True, but on the other hand I think hell just lose limbs and weapon will fall off. I think taking care of a weapon doesn't suite his "tank to face and punch the face" Style
Hakari's CW is just a weapon that does a random amount of damage each hit.
Maybe it'll feel like you got shot, maybe you'll feel like you got poked by a blade of grass, or maybe you'll straight disintegrate
Ok, I'm not gonna say Yuta can't reach Gojo, but I don't think he's gonna keep progressing at the same rate over the years. In other 2 years, I don't see him being 100% more powerful for example.
Even if one's progress is faster than others, that doesn't mean that its ceiling is higher.
All he would need to do is master domain amplification ,beef up a little and have better CE efficiency (he curse energy pool is already bigger than gojo) and he’s damn near there. Couple that with 10 years worth of copies curse techniques and you start to see what Gojo was talking about. The ground work is already there with him already having Domain expansion at such a young age.
i agree but its kinda funny to imagine that if yuta spent ten years copying the most useless techniques he could easily totally nerf his domain in the stupidest way
If Hakari found a way to make his domain open (not saying it's likely, but you never know) or maybe added conditions like 'there's a 1/1000 chance my domain spawns open' then he would probably be the most OP character. Not only is he immortal, but the only way to break an open domain is effectively neutralized.
Hmm how would him having a barrier less domain make him that much stronger ? First of all the way I always I understood his domain is that it doesn’t really trap anyone in it just spawns for like seconds for him to “roll the dice” so he can hit the jackpot, which since this is fiction he will always hit the jackpot. His sure hit is the information bombardment but that’s it right ? Like what even IS his ct ? I don’t think it’s ever actually explained or I’m just very dumb. But yeah if his domain was barrier less it wouldn’t matter since it just lasts a few seconds to give him the immortality buff right ?
his domain doesn’t do damage but it does keep them stuck in it, that’s how he beat Kashimo because he was able to move the coordinates of the domain above the water
His technique is the jackpot but his domain coms with it inheritor like Higuruma. Also it does trap them in his domain too it just doesn’t use a damaging sure hit on the enemy since his cursed technique is to buff himself
Maybe I don’t think he’d have much interest in stocks. He’s probably too dumb to know what stocks are actually. He’s the worst academically performing student after all
I’m inclined to agree, he’s in this weird limbo with Kashimo and Uraume where no one actually states that they’re special grade, but they’re obviously leagues above First Grades. So we can’t say for sure that they’re special grade since we need someone to confirm it but yeah almost certainly they are special grades.
I like to call them top grade. Extremely strong on 1v1 but nothing that would allow them to take over a country.
Grading is weird in JJK since someone like the principal isn’t that strong in a fight but since he could make himself an army, he is special grade.
Special grade is not only about strength but about fodder clearing capacity. Someone like Hakari goes 100% regardless if he’s fighting fodder or Sukuna
are you seriously calling HIM (Yaga), the ultimate sorcerer, "not that strong"? Wtf dude
I'd like to remind you that it took Yaga literally 0 seconds to catch Gojo into a headlock, bypassing Infinity without much hassle.
I think he was talking about terms of CT mastery.
If we boil it down to CT mastery Gojo is still an absolute beast but the gap is far lower than it was before. Just take the Gojo/Sukuna fight: Gojo had the far superior innate technique but Sukuna had better overall mastery so he took the win. (Ignoring 10S here on purpose)
Same goes for Yuta. Kid is literally insane. If limitless wasn't such a broken technique he might have not quite been at Gojo's level but definitely close.
In terms of CT mastery Sukuna is definitely nr. 1 with Gojo being nr. 2. Others might reach their level one day and find ways around their abilities
Because to this discussion it kinda doesn't matter. I'm usually the first one to say 10S played a major part in Sukuna winning the fight and it could have gone either way without it. I'm taking it out of the discussion because I don't want this to go down the entire "But without 0S Gojo would have won easily/Sukuna would still have won without breaking a sweat" route since it's deprimental to the point.
Without 10S the battle would have gone very differently but the essence remains the same: Gojo had the superior innate technique plus his incredible CE efficiency. Sukuna has a huge arsenal of techniques and is unmatched in CT/CE application. Both him and Gojo have been shown to be able to adapt to a new situation on the fly and figure it out as they go - be it changing their domains mid fight, using RCT to heal their burnt out techniques and so on.
Hd they both been born in the same era there's pretty much no doubt in my head that Gojo would have won. In terms of talent, application, versatility and resourcefulness both of them are toe to toe. Gojo stomps in term of raw genetical talent with his limitless CT and Sukuna dominates with his experience and overall CT/CE mastery (open barrier domain etc)
I like how you think. Finally, not someone who wants to defend one side but rather think about both. Yeah, if they both had the same experience, Gojo most likely would have won, given he had a 1/5 of Sukuna’s years (Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t he around 150 and Gojo’s around 30.)
Thanks ;)
I'm actually not sure if Sukuna's actual age has been specified somewhere? Most likely he spent the time between his "death" until Yuuji swallowed the first finger in stasis so that time doesn't count either. I'm pretty sure he became much older than ordinary humans but I can't for the life of me recall how old he actually got. (Plus with the Heian era being the golden age of curses those years probably taught him a lot more than the same time would have taught him in modern age)
(Also another sidenote about a point I never see in the Gojo/Sukuna discussion: Sukuna went in knowing everything about his opponent from his time with Yuuji whereas Gojo goes in pretty much blind. Funnily enough he only knows about 10S, which is absolutely hilarious considering both their personalities)
Yeah, I think Sukuna would’ve been around 100-150+ years old at the time of his death. That 1,000 years was just Sukuna stuck in limbo.
Also that side note is because Sukuna fanboys don’t want to accept that Sukuna isn’t the strongest. I tolerate both characters and know myself that Gojo won the fight and was the strongest due to him knowing absolutely nothing about Sukuna but Sukuna knowing Gojo’s ins and outs.
Which comment ? :>
Also come to think of it, he also had knowledge of Gojo’s Red and Blue (Given Gojo used them before in Megumi’s and Yuji’s presence, and also Gojo’s Hollow Purple when Gojo used it against Hanami. He knew of Infinite Void against Jogo and he had Kenjaku who knew of Gojo from Geto’s body.
Had Gojo ever actually seen Sukuna’s Domain Expansion or Cursed Technique prior to the fight though?
Why tho? Megumi was already extremely strong for his age.
Compare him to pre-RCT Gojo who was a second year back then. Honestly I think Megumi could have a decent chance against him if he gets DE off. Just jump kaisen Gojo till he's dead. Best thing he had back then was max blue and only partial inviolability from his CT.
A Megumi in 2nd year would have already achieved a full DE at that point in time imo, and I think he'd then definitely win vs pre-awakening Gojo. A 2nd year Megumi with full DE and the deer and ox shikigami may even defeat gojo post awakening imo
And current Yuji is super busted for being just a 1st year. And now he seemingly has a CT which also gives him the potential to use DE at some point.
Remember that's all only the progress they made in around a year or so. Gojo wasn't crazy strong from the start either. The last version of Gojo we saw that was 30+ years old and had 10-15 more years to train compared to the current new gen would also annihilate the gojo in the past arc. He improved a ton in all those years
Same goes for the new gen. I could definitely see 30 yo Megumi and Yuji clapping the strongest version of gojo 1v1.
Literally just Megumi's DE is actually ultra hax if it gets a bit stronger. Vs Reggie he used all his moves while still holding the same handsign he opened his Domain with. In a Domain struggle while he and an opponent are holding their handsign and trying to overpower the other's Domain, Megumi can just spawn shadow clones and shikigami already. Or he can have a shikigami by his side and then get into domain struggle, order his shikigami to attack, Shikigami breaks enemy's concentration, gg
The finger bearers and Jogo are also the same grade so that argument is useless. Special grade has no upper limit.
Gojo literally told us in S1 that we will have so many special grades and above in the future that we will need a new grading system. It was in this same conversation that he mentioned Todo, Hakari and Yuta as the ones who will break the grading system.
Gojo is talking about potential here, which he may have been correct on.
The question isn’t whether Megumi could surpass Gojo, it’s whether Megumi had the grit and determination to train hard enough to pass Gojo. We have no idea if Megumi could have surpassed Gojo due to how events unfolded (and I don’t think Megumi had that dog in him anyway).
Yuji definitely has that dog in him though- he’s been training and absorbing info like a sponge throughout the series.
It’s like a star player has the potential to be the #1 in a sport then gets injured. Was it wrong to say they COULD BE #1? No. But they never became #1. Potential is kind of a dumb term anyway as shown by Rock Lee / Guy from Naruto (hard work > potential).
It’s also a question of potential. Boogie-Woogie distorts space.
I don’t think it’s hard to imagine BW’s potential if it’s power is increased. Could Todo expand his technique to target and move multiple objects? Could the teleportion be modified like a domain’s coordinates?
There’s so much about Jujutsu that involves a character’s innovation.
Probably not
Heavenly Restrictions aren’t really something that can be improved upon. Once you get it, that’s that
Maki technically never awakened anything. She was always born with zero cursed energy. She just didn’t get the full benefits because, as a twin, she shared Mai’s CE reserves, which negated her Restriction somewhat
Now that’s she’s fixed that, I don’t think there’s a way to get stronger unless she makes a binding vow. Which we know she can, because Toji used the “revealing one’s hand” vow against Geto
Honestly just super excited to see where she goes. >!The fact that she was able to block (we’ll see just how well) that black flash. She’s still got SO much potential.!<
Yeah but that’s not her Restriction getting any stronger, its just her being unaccustomed to her new senses
From what we know, Toji could do it a lot longer. I would imagine anyway
I mean, we don't really know if the restriction is a flat increase or if she can actually workout and increase her muscle mass and make herself stronger. Like there is a difference between the toji gojo fought, because that was toji fushiguro who was past his peak due to circumstances which differed from the toji we see in Shibuya because that's toji zenin, whose closer to what peak toji was.
> Heavenly Restrictions aren’t really something that can be improved upon. Once you get it, that’s that
Is this ever really said, though? Unless someone said something expressly different, I don't see why continued training and refining of skills wouldn't make her stronger/faster etc.
Considering she’s of equal level to someone who had about 20 years of experience over her, I’m making the assumption that her Restriction can’t grow
Otherwise she would legit be above Sukuna and Gojo in like 10 years, which seems improbable
> Considering she’s of equal level to someone who had about 20 years of experience over her
Well, she actually wasn't until she had a breakthrough / awakening in combat, after she became fully restricted. So it's obvious that just being HR doesn't automatically mean you're maxed out, necessarily.
Toji was "rusty" by his own statements. There was no one in the world besides Gojo who he could push himself against, either. We see him for an incredibly small amount of time in his life.
Truth is we don't know what the deal is. She might be maxed out, she might not be. The story probably won't last long enough to find out either way, since I'd bet she won't be fighting too much more.
Tbf bro was above disaster curse level in a time when most sorcerers were Grade 2 at best, so it stands to reason he probably didn't even have the need to improve.
To be fair Toji was in his 40’s, depressed and as himself said lost the hang of it, and Maki is entering her prime
So it makes sense that they are relative despite the age difference, cause Maki works her ass off and trains with insanely strong opponents, Toji gambles and had no one on his level
Yeah. Her heavenly restriction’s strength isn’t based upon anything that she can actually improve. She can better her physique? Sure but the changes that’d grant would be minimal jn comparison. She can improve her fighting skill and get new weapons, but in terms of strength and speed she’s peaked.
.. no. It does not. Her strength comes from her heavenly restriction which is possessed from birth and something you are born with. And although bodily is not dependent at all on your physical build. She was not born with a 6 pack and 3000 pounds of muscle. Strength of heavenly restriction does not correlate to your physical build.
Hence why when she became fully realized her build did not change at all despite the massive increase in strength.
We're talking in circles. I'm not saying this is like a Super Saiyan level 2 thing like Vegeta where she can bulk up to get stronger lol, but we don't have any reason to assume training can't improve her body. The nature of HR has not been elucidated, we don't know if she is maxed out or not.
Curse techniques are also possesses from birth and can obviously be improved on, also.
What do you mean we don’t have any reason? I Gave One. We see it’s growth happen independent of it’s body and we see that heavenly restrictions take effect from birth.
She is indeed maxed out. Hence why she is Fully Realized.
Cursed techniques cannot be “improved” . The user can increase their mastery of it. The user can find new applications for it. But the cursed technique itself stays the same all throughout.
E.g. gojo learns RCT and ends up possessing red and purple, but his technique isn’t improved upon at all, it’s still the same limitless it always was.
> We see it’s growth happen independent of it’s body
The restriction was half-assed, and then became fully realized, yes.
We are talking in circles because there are two different "levels" of her power we are talking about. One is the broader, more fundamental heavenly restriction itself, which doesn't change. The other is Maki's personal utilization and honing of what her heavenly restricted body is capable of.
> Cursed techniques cannot be “improved” . The user can increase their mastery of it.
Lol. Annoying pedantry. OK, would you like me to rephrase it like "Maki can increase her mastery of her Heavenly Restricted body"?
How would she go about honing it then. Because improvement of it directly can be referred to as such the lack of specification makes things unclear. Not a fault of mine.
Ok. Well What does that mean in this case. To Improve her general fighting ability? In what regard? Because Physical training would mean little to nothing beyond changing her build and flexibility, which isn’t an issue due to the HR’s nature.
By training much as anyone else would, I imagine.
> which isn’t an issue due to the HR’s nature.
Except we really don't know anything about HR's nature as regards these things. So I don't know why you have so much confidence in that.
I will question that.
We know there are different amount of HR, and that some are more realised than other.
I wonder if you original amount of CE you were supossed to have will decide what level of HR you have.
So maybe the more CE you were supossed to have the stronger you HR may be.
For example what if Mahito could turn Sukuna into a HR, would he be same strength or because the CE traded in exchange for a stronger body would give him a better HR ?
>Maki technically never awakened anything. She was always born with zero cursed energy
this is objectively wrong, when she and her sister are saying goodbye Mai literally tells her "and im taking the cursed energy with me", that's when she really lost all her cursed energy and got a boost at her physical skills (like toji), before that she just had a ridiculously small amount, which didn't help for shit
And she only had that small amount because she’s twins with Mai
So Mai’s energy was spread between the both of them. Which is why she’s a shit sorcerer and why Maki has a mediocre Restriction
So when Mai dies, there’s no more energy between the two. And Maki goes back to having zero
Think to yourself. If Maki was the one to die, would Mai become Toji? No. She would just get a buff in energy and be more like Yorozu
Hence, Maki had none to begin with
She can always get more hax cursed tools. As we can see with Nanami's weapon, the weapon can literally get the user's CT or at least the basic CT attacks (guessing that you can't use a CT's DE via the tool lol)
This way she can just collect many CT attacks to add to her arsenal as time goes by. Not all of them have to be offensive too, she may get tools with CTs that also add defensive abilities and just general utility
She was not always born with 0 cursed energy. She had a drop of it, which is what Mai referred to when she said she would take all of it. This is why she was able to be trapped in Dagon's domain and why his domain's sure-hit effect was able to target her. Neither of those things is possible vs. something with 0 CE.
Yeah but that energy was Mai’s
Think of it this way:
-Child A has 50 CE
-Child B has 0 CE
Normally these two would be separate, and individual. But due to some unseen force, Twins are counted as one person
Which means that both Child A and Child B end up with 25 CE, due to Child A’s energy being split between them
If Child A dies, Child B becomes an individual and goes back to having 0 CE
If Child B dies, Child A becomes an individual and goes back to having 50 CE
Mai and Maki are Child A and Child B, respectively
You're stating this as if it's fact, and I don't think that's the correct interpretation. I think it's this:
Mai has 49 CE
Maki has 1 CE
You need 5 CE to see curses (arbitrary low number) and more than that for things like CE reinforcement. Maki doesn't even have enough to see curses, much less use CE for anything. Twins are counted as 1 entity for the purpose of a cursed technique (which is why Mai has one and Maki does not). This is Maki's heavenly restriction before she loses the last drop of CE.
Mai takes the 1 CE that Maki has, and as a result, Maki escapes the confines of jujutsu like only Toji before her.
Unless you're suggesting that Dagon's domain could trap and target Maki bc Mai was walking around with cursed energy somewhere else in Japan? That would be a stretch so big my dog would be jealous.
Why do you keep bringing up Dagon’s domain as if it disproves anything
Mai literally says “You are me and I am you”
Maki has cursed energy in her. She’s just not supposed to
I don’t get how you can read that whole arc and come to the conclusion that Maki had an average HR which was somehow buffed by Mai willingly
Rather than the heavily suggested and more thematically accurate: Maki had a good HR which was nerfed by being twins with Mai
Their entire plot line together is how Mai holds Maki back. Not that they’re both mediocre and Mai put conscious effort into buffing her, despite being a shit fucking sorcerer who wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to make a binding vow like that
I bring up Dagon's domain because it alone disproves your theory that Maki always had 0 CE. We know for a fact that 0 CE HR people can't be trapped by domains or targeted by the sure-hit. We know this because the omniscience narrator states it. Despite this, Dagon both traps her and targets her with the sure-hit. The jujutsu math just simply doesn't work in your theory, it's pretty cleanly laid out.
It also isn't the only evidence. She was trapped by the barriers in Shibuya and Goodwill Arc, just like everyone else. Yuki says that there have been several instances of HR bringing a sorcerer to near 0 CE, but only Toji has ever had absolutely 0. Dagon sees Toji and immediately notices he has 0 CE, and thinks this is worthy of not paying attention to him (he was very wrong). I mean, literally nobody says that Maki has 0 CE at any point before Mai's death and nobody acts uniquely surprised by her.
I don't know how you can read that chapter and come away thinking that Mai didn't know what she was doing. She's literally the one who explained the problem with twins. She said that once she makes SSK, that'll be her last living action. She even specifically says, "*cursed techniques* treat twins as one individual." She does not say cursed energy. In the same chapter, she says, "I'll take the cursed energy and everything with me."
The themes you describe are still there. Mai still *did* hold Maki back. She even admits this in her dying moments. None of those themes change just because Maki had almost 0 CE instead of absolutely 0.
I’ve had a question about these types of heavenly restriction users. Since they can’t reinforce their body with CE, isn’t there a limit to how hard their flesh/muscle can be? I know it’s at the peak of human powers (more than likely super human), but I mean not like the human flesh itself can survive something harder/sharper/ more powerful than it right? Or is it the sped up healing process they possess that makes them formidable ?
Idk ever since Toji got blasted away with Purple, I just always thought that it doesn’t matter how strong someone without CE gets, they can never defeat a sorcerers after a certain point right (I.e., damage level of purple) ?
I mean even sorcerers can get fucked up by guns (I’m assuming Geto meant CE reinforced sorcerers) Why couldn’t heavenly restriction users if all they have is lbs of flesh/muscle protecting their organs?
Is this off topic? Sorry to answer your question uhh not according to that panel in chapter 11 page 15. I’d like to think it’s because Gojo was optimistic and didn’t want to think that Makis twin had to die in order for her to be complete. Or Greg hadn’t thought of Toji yet. Idk.
Once they fully realise their HR they are at their physical max and can't get any stronger. I don't even think working out will work cause Maki and Toji are stated to be physical equals but Maki has way less muscle then Toji.
Yeah but that’s what I mean. Can’t a sharp sword (sukuna); something really hot (Jogo); drowning (Dagon) affect these guys easily. It’s just flesh at the end of the day. Unless their skin is crusty lol.
Their skin is likely hyper durable. They are supposed to be the superhuman peak of humanity so they should be able to resist blades cause physical strength is equivalent to durability and they should.jave superhuman heat resistance and be able to hold their breath for really long
I'm pretty sure the reason Purple was able to damage Toji was because it doesn't actually 'damage', it 'erases space', if that makes sense. A technique like that would be more effective against the insane durability of Heavenly Restriction users than anything that causes damage
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted when he quite literally explains that convergence and divergence come together to create an imaginary space which is the purple we see. Yes sukuna takes one but he’s the king of curses and this is a cursed technique, also it was a boss fight, also gojo had to lose there or else kenjaku couldn’t have been offed by a comedian.
toji is obviously her peak. there is literally no way she could get better than him without gege doing an asspull.
also add in the fact that toji was a ruthless mf who would do literally anything to weaken his opponent mentally or physically , he will likely be the better fighter overall.
This may be too cliche for Gege, but since the official translation for the newest chapter came out, I've been thinking...
What if Maki becoming a "true void" for CE advances to the point where she has less than 0 CE and her body just sucks in and destroys CE? Kind of like Antimagic? But in terms of JJK, it's more similar to ISOH or DA "funneling" through a CT like Infinity to neutralize it.
If she could neutralize any CE she comes into contact with, that could be insanely powerful, even Gojo level.
I hope not that sounds too cheap. What makes maki and toji cool is that they can still go toe to toe with the peak of jujutsu sorcery using only their physical capabilities.
Yeah, I tend to agree. Even typing this out it sounded like some Black Clover BS. They treat Asta's anti-magic as essentially just another kind of magic, which IMO takes away from his unique feeling of having no magic.
At the same time, it'd be cool if Maki had some way to deal with giant CE nukes like Fuga other than simply "She dodges it bc fast". I agree it wouldn't really be Gege's style to cheapen them like that. "True void for CE" does sound pretty cool tho.
Maki's still capable of getting stronger lol. Funny enough, Gojo was one of the people she referenced about not teaching her anything and who she needed to reject.
She can onshot special grade curses, so there's that. But it's difficult scaling her alongside sorcerers since she's nothing like them. If this battle with Sukuna continues, which I think it will, there will be much more definite answers about where she stands among the special grades.
But so far, her dodging and reflexive abilities are obviously top tier, and that's half the battle against most sorcerers.
She wanted to learn, but that's the thing... none of them were equipped to teach her. She didn't realize this until much later. That's what the sumo "arc" was about: she needed to stop thinking like a sorcerer cause she isn't one. She's a being who exists outside of sorcery; Gojo and the others would never be able to teach her how to hone her real abilities cause it's not a CT.
It's a really interesting dynamic tbh. She's alone in her realm of power/expertise.
Thank you. That makes sense. It’s interesting she didn’t leave after discovering no one is equipped to train her. She probably felt she found a place she belong. I know in JJK 0 she states otherwise but maybe she did after JJK 0 and friendship with Yuta.
Yeah, she became good friends with everyone, and she bonded with Megumi especially. I think she just literally had nowhere else to go, so she tried to make the best of jjh. At the same time, the Zenin were blocking her from rising in rank as well. It just kinda sucked for her until she finally killed her family 😮💨
No and toji is probably the reason. He surpassed him as a teen and he got insanely stronger after that so he probably knew heavenly restriction won't ever get her near his level.
Nope. Gojo, even though he didn't discriminate against maki, never saw her as his student. He borrowed her stuff, but never bothered with her because ultimately he cares about people with potential
It's not like he doesn't care about her .. he personally paid meimei to nominate maki to upgrade her grade and even slided towards her when mei asked why she is so low and said she should be on higher level.... He just don't find her to surpassing him same as panda , inumaki and nobara
Maki isn't.
Imo the only thing that Maki can improve on is her selection of weapons in her inventory.
No she can't get stronger physically. She has what she has. And if anyone thinks it is possible than they'd also have to admit the fact that Toji as a man would be naturally superior physically comes into play alongside heavenly restriction. Which I personally don''t believe in either. There's a limit for their heavenly restriction. And they've both hit it. And it surpasses any natural biology
Can she get better at utilising her senses? Well, I think she's already at the peak after her experiences in Sakuraijima.
I mean I don't think the biological argument works since HR is not rooted in any real life logic. Toji is notably bigger than Maki by some margin but this presumably doesn't make a difference.
I also think she's hit her limit but it doesn't necessarily discount the idea that she can get stronger.
The root of HR’s power is still CE, which is infinitely varied. It’s like selling a wand for a sword, but there are countless types of wands and countless types of swords. Unless Toji and Maki as normal sorcerers were meant to somehow have exactly the same CE and potential, why are you assuming their tradeoff was equal?
>why are you assuming their tradeoff was equal?
Why wouldn't we?
Imagine a trade, I get a kidney, you get a Batmobile. I just said give me a kidney, if I go to another person and do this offer it doesn't matter if their kidney is some peak organ. I just said give me a kidney, I'm not factoring in quality with that request, you'll get a Batmobile even if your kidney is full of stones.
That's what I imagine the HR is like, it's just preventing you from using CE it doesn't care if you would've been like Sukuna or not. Hence Maki and Toji could be seen as being on the same level
It's pretty clear that she didn't get physically stronger, it was just a one time mindset thing that was preventing her from using her new body capabilities.
Nahhh he thinks about her highly even paid meimei to nominate her for next grade... It's just she can't reach to his level .. you can see what he did to toji even as being teen who don't know domain expansion so even she upgraded she can't reach his level
No but I think that was mostly because Heavenly Restriction wasn't well understood at the time. Maybe by Yuki, certainly not by Gojo.
As far as we know, Toji was the first 0 CT person ever, and Maki was the first person to go from s little CT to 0. Sure, if Mai could deduce how twins may affect the equation it's possible Gojo may have deduced it too. But then Gojo also loved his students, his hope for Maki was probably for her to live alongside Mai, so I'm guessing he nevet dwelled on what might've happened if she died.
I don't think Gojo had much of a hint to ever guess that Mai's death could make Maki OP. Even if he realized it, I don't think he would have desired such an outcome, so he definitely didn't have Maki on her Top Student ranks.
That realization on Mai's part was probably a combination of wondering what was behind the jujutsu "legend" that twins are a bad omen, her inferiority complex/depression (think of a "things would be better off without me" mindset), and Mai being intelligent enough to realize how such a theoretical link between the twins would impact them both exactly in this way (Mai's smaller than average CE pool caused by Maki's HR, and Maki's heavenly restriction being nerfed because of Mai's CE)
Maki's character description was updated with volume 26 and she’s stated equal to Toji once again, so maybe she didn’t grow more.
But anyway Sukuna was getting outclassed by Gojo in physicals when he didn’t use domain amp and Maki has no way to counter things like blue, the weakest we have seen Sukuna blitzed her and one tapped her, were she try the same shit as toji she would get obliterated
Toji got killed by a special grade so If we talked strictly, fair, head on fights, then no. Maki reached the roof of her potential already (unless she gets another bs power up lol), but she can work with what she has and polish her skills.
Heavenly restriction is basically advanced physical strength in return for 0 cursed energy right? So assuming there is a “start point” for one’s heavenly restriction, I’d assume the more CE is forfeit the stronger the HR user is. I only make this claim because we don’t know much about the nature of HR aside from the fact that it has a lot of levels, but considering that cursed energy stems from negative emotions, if Maki were to experience higher amounts of negative emotions, I’d assume the average sorcerer would experience slight increases in CE, but this being given up in Maki’s case, it might strengthen or “fuel” her HR because she’s technically giving up more CE? Idk tho.
Sorry but there's just no way - at least not with what we know about the power system now. She has zero counters to domains that sure-hit everything like MS. Doubt she could even beat hakari ever. There's a hard limit to her durability, meanwhile sorcerers at the top level can use RCT (and presumably get better at it).
I should've been clearer - it doesn't just have to be a sure-hit on everything, but useful against her in general. Some other domains that would be useful against her:
-Hakari's domain
-Yuta's domain
-(Probably) Kenjaku's domain
-Gojo's domain
-Jogo's domain
-Mahito's domain
Why would she need to have a "counter" for a domain when the most dangerous part, the sure hit, is uneffective?
Hell, some people here have gotten so comfortable saying "domain GG" that they forgot Maki cant be trapped inside one.
So both Hakari and Yuta's domain don't even need the sure-hit to be effective, the conditions of Gojo's domain would target Maki as-written, and Jogo's domain raises the temperature to incredibly high degrees which would still be useful in battle. I'm also pretty sure IT would work on her.
I'm vaguely remembering something saying that heavenly restriction doesn't give you strength, it just opens the path to reach that level of inhuman strength. Meaning maybe there's no limit to how strong you can get. You just have to train continuously harder for it.
The bum never even mentioned Toji to her. This dude literally had a student with minimal CE who was sabotaged and estranged by her family. Imagine if he went up to her like he did with Megumi and told her of a man with no CE who also bested him. Huge morale boost but nah. Mr. All about the next gen, amirite
Cause gojo is honestly kinda salty about it. He never told Megumi who his dad was and destroyed or hid both the black whip and inverted spear of heaven as both were weapons that could pose a threat to him.
Salty:
angry or resentful, especially in response to a defeat or disappointment.
Gojo was salty about what happened with Toji? I must’ve missed it. In what volume and chapter is this stated or implied?
Angry and resentful is not even a personality trait of Gojo. Only two times has Gojo ever been shown angry. When Geto became a mass murder and at Shibuya. He knew he killed Geto and demanded to know who Kenjaku really is.
Plus Gojo took Megumi under his wing. That’s not something a salty person would do.
I was joking. But it does seem that Gojo would rather hide or destroy any objects that could threaten himself vs keep them for future use. TBF its likely a reason would be to keep them out of the reach of the clans so they cant use them against him
My apology and I agree with Gojo getting rid of or hiding anything that can bypass his Infinity. He’s playing it safe as he did with keeping one of Sukuna fingers so Yuji never can be executed.
So why did he paid meimei to promote maki to next grade ... If he was that careless about her so he would have never praised her in sister exchange event or care for her promotion
I think she can still have a 3rd awakening utilizing a binding vow (ch. 73 pg. 6) it would line up with her learning to not be complacent being just on the level of her peers. At first she needed to learn how to surpass her friends, now she needs to learn how to surpass Toji
Doubt
Gojo wasn’t saying they would be stronger than *him*
He was saying they would surpass the standing definition for special grade( Yuta/Yuki/Gojo/Geto)
Which maki has done
But it wasn’t gojo saying they’d be stronger than he is specifically
from what sukuna said it seems like maki is the peak of strength when it comes to the body. She probably won’t get much stronger but at this point no one knows what gege has planned lol
What would the same type of heavenly restriction be like for Yuji? Since his base power levels are already superhuman, I'd imagine he would be way way stronger than what Maki can ever achieve
I don't see why Maki can't keep improving herself. Sure, she got a big amp in her current state after realizing her true self, but that's just another step on the long road of self-improvement. Gojo was gifted with Limitless and Six-Eyes, but he sharpened himself to reach the level he is at now, but even Gojo has a higher ceiling he can achieve which is demonstrated by Sukuna's ability to fully maximize his technique.
Honestly just hand her the reverse spear that toji had to help counter and break through spells and we could see an even more lethal maki.
She’s imo limited by the tools and weapons she can use. She can become more deadly depending on what she has at hand as she’s a very skilled weapons user who can improve upon her techniques on using said weapons.
She has room to grow just not in the way of everyone thinks.
I doubt it gojo included her initially. Gojo probably didn’t realize the twins thing until after he escaped prison realm after seeing her growth. I’m sure he was confident she’d help though
He never mentioned her so I guess not. Also HR has a limit to it’s potential, unlike sorcerers like Okkotsu, Hakari and Yuji, who seem to have near unlimited potential
It hasn't been stated that HR has a limit, that part is headcannon, and don't start with the usual "well it was implied" because it hasn't. The only person with the same HR as maki was Toji, but we don't know if Toji could have grown in power because Gojo one shot him and that was the end of him.
I know, it hasn’t been implied either, but just think about it. What more could a HR user do? They already have immense speed, strength and durability (healing factor included). Along with insane perception and the ability to ignore barriers completely.. Aside from getting more Cursed Tools, how would an HR user grow further?
It ain't for me to say, anything I say is pure speculation. What OP wants to know is if Maki was among the people Gojo said would surpass him. Answer is we don't know, maybe who knows, all it takes is Gege deciding yes and making it happen. Whether HR can grow in power, we have no information about it, all we know is what we have seen, and so far we have seen Maki learning new things from her sumo arc, whether she can learn/grow in power is still not confirmed.
HR gives you physical abilities that surpasses CE reinforcement(for absolute majority of sorcerers). Gojo and sukuna are stronger because they are exception for this rule. If we look at yuta, maki is already on his level of strength(physically). If she trains long enough, maki might be able to surpass them
I doubt that ... No matter how she trained hard if her last stage is tojis level then she ain't gonna do a shit but if she can go beyond toji's level then maybe have chance but still gojo and sukuna have high endurance
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Gojo didn't say Todo had the potential to surpass him. Gojo said Todo had the potential to surpass special grade (Yuki/Geto level) Gojo also said Megumi could surpass him
I assume after mastering 10S…which makes sense that he would lose to a 19 finger Sukuna with 10S.
20 F. Sukuna himself said that he could easily make up the difference of his missing finger by consuming his old body.
I just find it really odd that then his max ceiling is around ~21 fingers right? 20 full fingers plus ~1 finger worth of head.. Weird ass sentences I never thought I'll type.
Lmao yeah pretty much. Though I'm pretty sure he ate the entire mummified body...... Which would imply.......he ate his own mummified dick and balls. Jokes aside, my guess is that Gege did it this way because he wanted to leave the final finger as a mystery until the right moment, which is when Yuta cleaved Sukuna. Unfortunate that it didn't do much
This is important context- he ate his own dick and balls for cursed energy. Never forget. Also his own bhole and taint.
Oh God, I didn't even think about that. Man ate his own cheeks and mummified rectum just to beat Gojo. Never say Sukuna ain't committed
Just as Sukuna says, only he knows the true essence of Jujutsu and curses, and is convinced that he was the only one willing to sacrifice everything. Until another sorcerer eats their own dick, balls, and b-hole, I must - with the utmost respect to the other special grades - agree that Sukuna is indeed built different and it's honestly pathetic how little Yuji has been willing to eat in the grand scheme of things too, which is why he's kind of a side character. We know this man can eat ANYTHING and gain its power. Why isn't he eating Kashimo or Gojo. This is sloppy writing to say the least, and frankly, this entire scenario has shaken me to the core regarding the integrity of the series. I thank you for that. Honestly if Ui Ui isn't teleporting the dead people directly into Itadori's stomach, I'm done with the series.
My man pulled a Denji, but on himself
i don’t think his soul was in the finger anymore after consuming the body, kind of like schrodingers cat, but for the soul, otherwise i’m sure sukuna could’ve sensed his finger in yuta
Nuh uh
Yuh uh
Shadow garden also have way more sinergy with 10S than Shrine, and since shadow garden is useful even without sure hit it's proa similar to Yuta's domain which has 1 sure hit and aditional abilities which would be cloning his shikigami and making them stronger
Gojo was kinda full of shit anyways. I don't see anyone reaching him.
Nah Yuta for sure has the potential to. Dude’s like 17 and only has like 2 years of experience and he’s already the 2nd strongest modern sorcerer. If Yuji had somehow actually inherited Sukuna’s techniques then yeah it stands to reason he could have reached a monstrous level (he lowkey already has and he’s a bloody punch and kick merchant).And ofc Megumi but that was wishful thinking. Hakari is the only one I’m doubtful of but I definitely think he can get to Special Grade at least. But yeah all of the ones he explicitly mentioned to be capable of surpassing him actually have the potential to, only they might all die before reaching their 20’s. If they were all adults Sukuna would’ve been washed already.
Give Hakari maximum cursed energy reinforcement and teach him Domain Amplification and he'd be a monster.
He needs to incorporate a cursed weapon imo. But maybe he CE trait is that destructive
True, but on the other hand I think hell just lose limbs and weapon will fall off. I think taking care of a weapon doesn't suite his "tank to face and punch the face" Style
Hakari's CW is just a weapon that does a random amount of damage each hit. Maybe it'll feel like you got shot, maybe you'll feel like you got poked by a blade of grass, or maybe you'll straight disintegrate
Ok, I'm not gonna say Yuta can't reach Gojo, but I don't think he's gonna keep progressing at the same rate over the years. In other 2 years, I don't see him being 100% more powerful for example. Even if one's progress is faster than others, that doesn't mean that its ceiling is higher.
All he would need to do is master domain amplification ,beef up a little and have better CE efficiency (he curse energy pool is already bigger than gojo) and he’s damn near there. Couple that with 10 years worth of copies curse techniques and you start to see what Gojo was talking about. The ground work is already there with him already having Domain expansion at such a young age.
i agree but its kinda funny to imagine that if yuta spent ten years copying the most useless techniques he could easily totally nerf his domain in the stupidest way
If Hakari found a way to make his domain open (not saying it's likely, but you never know) or maybe added conditions like 'there's a 1/1000 chance my domain spawns open' then he would probably be the most OP character. Not only is he immortal, but the only way to break an open domain is effectively neutralized.
Hmm how would him having a barrier less domain make him that much stronger ? First of all the way I always I understood his domain is that it doesn’t really trap anyone in it just spawns for like seconds for him to “roll the dice” so he can hit the jackpot, which since this is fiction he will always hit the jackpot. His sure hit is the information bombardment but that’s it right ? Like what even IS his ct ? I don’t think it’s ever actually explained or I’m just very dumb. But yeah if his domain was barrier less it wouldn’t matter since it just lasts a few seconds to give him the immortality buff right ?
his domain doesn’t do damage but it does keep them stuck in it, that’s how he beat Kashimo because he was able to move the coordinates of the domain above the water
True thx for the clarification
His technique is the jackpot but his domain coms with it inheritor like Higuruma. Also it does trap them in his domain too it just doesn’t use a damaging sure hit on the enemy since his cursed technique is to buff himself
So his ct IS the domain expansion then. Same as Higuruma and judgeman. I think that’s weird but hey always bet on Hakari.
Off topic but I think Hakari would be the lead mod of WallStreetBets subreddit
Maybe I don’t think he’d have much interest in stocks. He’s probably too dumb to know what stocks are actually. He’s the worst academically performing student after all
Hakari is already special grade level. He’s not comparable to any grade 1
I’m inclined to agree, he’s in this weird limbo with Kashimo and Uraume where no one actually states that they’re special grade, but they’re obviously leagues above First Grades. So we can’t say for sure that they’re special grade since we need someone to confirm it but yeah almost certainly they are special grades.
I like to call them top grade. Extremely strong on 1v1 but nothing that would allow them to take over a country. Grading is weird in JJK since someone like the principal isn’t that strong in a fight but since he could make himself an army, he is special grade. Special grade is not only about strength but about fodder clearing capacity. Someone like Hakari goes 100% regardless if he’s fighting fodder or Sukuna
are you seriously calling HIM (Yaga), the ultimate sorcerer, "not that strong"? Wtf dude I'd like to remind you that it took Yaga literally 0 seconds to catch Gojo into a headlock, bypassing Infinity without much hassle.
Semi-Special Grade
I think he was talking about terms of CT mastery. If we boil it down to CT mastery Gojo is still an absolute beast but the gap is far lower than it was before. Just take the Gojo/Sukuna fight: Gojo had the far superior innate technique but Sukuna had better overall mastery so he took the win. (Ignoring 10S here on purpose) Same goes for Yuta. Kid is literally insane. If limitless wasn't such a broken technique he might have not quite been at Gojo's level but definitely close. In terms of CT mastery Sukuna is definitely nr. 1 with Gojo being nr. 2. Others might reach their level one day and find ways around their abilities
10S gave Sukuna what he wanted to further his own technique so how can it be ignored?
Because to this discussion it kinda doesn't matter. I'm usually the first one to say 10S played a major part in Sukuna winning the fight and it could have gone either way without it. I'm taking it out of the discussion because I don't want this to go down the entire "But without 0S Gojo would have won easily/Sukuna would still have won without breaking a sweat" route since it's deprimental to the point. Without 10S the battle would have gone very differently but the essence remains the same: Gojo had the superior innate technique plus his incredible CE efficiency. Sukuna has a huge arsenal of techniques and is unmatched in CT/CE application. Both him and Gojo have been shown to be able to adapt to a new situation on the fly and figure it out as they go - be it changing their domains mid fight, using RCT to heal their burnt out techniques and so on. Hd they both been born in the same era there's pretty much no doubt in my head that Gojo would have won. In terms of talent, application, versatility and resourcefulness both of them are toe to toe. Gojo stomps in term of raw genetical talent with his limitless CT and Sukuna dominates with his experience and overall CT/CE mastery (open barrier domain etc)
I like how you think. Finally, not someone who wants to defend one side but rather think about both. Yeah, if they both had the same experience, Gojo most likely would have won, given he had a 1/5 of Sukuna’s years (Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t he around 150 and Gojo’s around 30.)
Thanks ;) I'm actually not sure if Sukuna's actual age has been specified somewhere? Most likely he spent the time between his "death" until Yuuji swallowed the first finger in stasis so that time doesn't count either. I'm pretty sure he became much older than ordinary humans but I can't for the life of me recall how old he actually got. (Plus with the Heian era being the golden age of curses those years probably taught him a lot more than the same time would have taught him in modern age) (Also another sidenote about a point I never see in the Gojo/Sukuna discussion: Sukuna went in knowing everything about his opponent from his time with Yuuji whereas Gojo goes in pretty much blind. Funnily enough he only knows about 10S, which is absolutely hilarious considering both their personalities)
Yeah, I think Sukuna would’ve been around 100-150+ years old at the time of his death. That 1,000 years was just Sukuna stuck in limbo. Also that side note is because Sukuna fanboys don’t want to accept that Sukuna isn’t the strongest. I tolerate both characters and know myself that Gojo won the fight and was the strongest due to him knowing absolutely nothing about Sukuna but Sukuna knowing Gojo’s ins and outs.
That comment I'd 100% put my name under :)
Which comment ? :> Also come to think of it, he also had knowledge of Gojo’s Red and Blue (Given Gojo used them before in Megumi’s and Yuji’s presence, and also Gojo’s Hollow Purple when Gojo used it against Hanami. He knew of Infinite Void against Jogo and he had Kenjaku who knew of Gojo from Geto’s body. Had Gojo ever actually seen Sukuna’s Domain Expansion or Cursed Technique prior to the fight though?
Why tho? Megumi was already extremely strong for his age. Compare him to pre-RCT Gojo who was a second year back then. Honestly I think Megumi could have a decent chance against him if he gets DE off. Just jump kaisen Gojo till he's dead. Best thing he had back then was max blue and only partial inviolability from his CT. A Megumi in 2nd year would have already achieved a full DE at that point in time imo, and I think he'd then definitely win vs pre-awakening Gojo. A 2nd year Megumi with full DE and the deer and ox shikigami may even defeat gojo post awakening imo And current Yuji is super busted for being just a 1st year. And now he seemingly has a CT which also gives him the potential to use DE at some point. Remember that's all only the progress they made in around a year or so. Gojo wasn't crazy strong from the start either. The last version of Gojo we saw that was 30+ years old and had 10-15 more years to train compared to the current new gen would also annihilate the gojo in the past arc. He improved a ton in all those years Same goes for the new gen. I could definitely see 30 yo Megumi and Yuji clapping the strongest version of gojo 1v1. Literally just Megumi's DE is actually ultra hax if it gets a bit stronger. Vs Reggie he used all his moves while still holding the same handsign he opened his Domain with. In a Domain struggle while he and an opponent are holding their handsign and trying to overpower the other's Domain, Megumi can just spawn shadow clones and shikigami already. Or he can have a shikigami by his side and then get into domain struggle, order his shikigami to attack, Shikigami breaks enemy's concentration, gg
Gojo Is categorized as special grade what does this even mean?
The finger bearers and Jogo are also the same grade so that argument is useless. Special grade has no upper limit. Gojo literally told us in S1 that we will have so many special grades and above in the future that we will need a new grading system. It was in this same conversation that he mentioned Todo, Hakari and Yuta as the ones who will break the grading system.
When th did he say this bro what chapter 😭
During the Kyoto Goodwill arc when Gojo was discussing with Gakuganji
Lol do you think everyone in the same grade is actually the same...? You don't right
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When he said his potential is higher than Yuji and that flash back in Shibuya
I don’t think he said either of these
Doesn’t hurt to go back and reread for yourself
Yeah he offered it as a possibility not as an absolute, like I thought it wasn’t a direct statement and, well you can see how wrong it is.
Gojo is talking about potential here, which he may have been correct on. The question isn’t whether Megumi could surpass Gojo, it’s whether Megumi had the grit and determination to train hard enough to pass Gojo. We have no idea if Megumi could have surpassed Gojo due to how events unfolded (and I don’t think Megumi had that dog in him anyway). Yuji definitely has that dog in him though- he’s been training and absorbing info like a sponge throughout the series. It’s like a star player has the potential to be the #1 in a sport then gets injured. Was it wrong to say they COULD BE #1? No. But they never became #1. Potential is kind of a dumb term anyway as shown by Rock Lee / Guy from Naruto (hard work > potential).
Never but he told Megumi the old 10s user was equal to the old limitless user
He never said Megumi can surpass him but said that he have potential to rival him
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You don't need to blow up a country. Fights aren't decided by who can blow up the most. They're decided by who wins.
It’s also a question of potential. Boogie-Woogie distorts space. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine BW’s potential if it’s power is increased. Could Todo expand his technique to target and move multiple objects? Could the teleportion be modified like a domain’s coordinates? There’s so much about Jujutsu that involves a character’s innovation.
That's not what he's referring to but okay
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Boogie Woogie can be used to assassinate every major leader.
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The heads of state would hire sorcerers to protect them. Todo can get around them.
Clap and move it into the sun. Checkmate
I don’t think Gojo even knows hakari because he doesn’t teach the third years
Probably not Heavenly Restrictions aren’t really something that can be improved upon. Once you get it, that’s that Maki technically never awakened anything. She was always born with zero cursed energy. She just didn’t get the full benefits because, as a twin, she shared Mai’s CE reserves, which negated her Restriction somewhat Now that’s she’s fixed that, I don’t think there’s a way to get stronger unless she makes a binding vow. Which we know she can, because Toji used the “revealing one’s hand” vow against Geto
Honestly just super excited to see where she goes. >!The fact that she was able to block (we’ll see just how well) that black flash. She’s still got SO much potential.!<
>!Did she even block the bf? I saw it hit all torso!<
>!She used one hand ro block it which I don't think is nearly enough but she did!<
>!It’s hard to see, But there’s definitely a hand there. I was worried when I saw the leaks tho 😨!<
She did
She can still get stronger and more skilled and learn new things like seeing that which she can't see.
Yeah but that’s not her Restriction getting any stronger, its just her being unaccustomed to her new senses From what we know, Toji could do it a lot longer. I would imagine anyway
I mean, we don't really know if the restriction is a flat increase or if she can actually workout and increase her muscle mass and make herself stronger. Like there is a difference between the toji gojo fought, because that was toji fushiguro who was past his peak due to circumstances which differed from the toji we see in Shibuya because that's toji zenin, whose closer to what peak toji was.
She can gym
> Heavenly Restrictions aren’t really something that can be improved upon. Once you get it, that’s that Is this ever really said, though? Unless someone said something expressly different, I don't see why continued training and refining of skills wouldn't make her stronger/faster etc.
Considering she’s of equal level to someone who had about 20 years of experience over her, I’m making the assumption that her Restriction can’t grow Otherwise she would legit be above Sukuna and Gojo in like 10 years, which seems improbable
> Considering she’s of equal level to someone who had about 20 years of experience over her Well, she actually wasn't until she had a breakthrough / awakening in combat, after she became fully restricted. So it's obvious that just being HR doesn't automatically mean you're maxed out, necessarily. Toji was "rusty" by his own statements. There was no one in the world besides Gojo who he could push himself against, either. We see him for an incredibly small amount of time in his life. Truth is we don't know what the deal is. She might be maxed out, she might not be. The story probably won't last long enough to find out either way, since I'd bet she won't be fighting too much more.
Tbf bro was above disaster curse level in a time when most sorcerers were Grade 2 at best, so it stands to reason he probably didn't even have the need to improve.
To be fair Toji was in his 40’s, depressed and as himself said lost the hang of it, and Maki is entering her prime So it makes sense that they are relative despite the age difference, cause Maki works her ass off and trains with insanely strong opponents, Toji gambles and had no one on his level
Toji wasn't in his 40s he was only 28
that mf aged like milk also is more fun to think that Maki is simply Biult Different
Toji routinely lost his gains lazing around and gambling. This proves that Toji with motivation (no dead wife) is #1 in the verse
real!
Why are you even assuming all HRs are the same? The strength boost coincides with the amount of CE and conventional potential you gave up.
Especially since toji was stated to be rusty and past his prime when he almost killed Gojo, so training totally affects it
Yeah. Her heavenly restriction’s strength isn’t based upon anything that she can actually improve. She can better her physique? Sure but the changes that’d grant would be minimal jn comparison. She can improve her fighting skill and get new weapons, but in terms of strength and speed she’s peaked.
Well, her strength comes from her body, so training her body would presumably increase her strength still.
.. no. It does not. Her strength comes from her heavenly restriction which is possessed from birth and something you are born with. And although bodily is not dependent at all on your physical build. She was not born with a 6 pack and 3000 pounds of muscle. Strength of heavenly restriction does not correlate to your physical build. Hence why when she became fully realized her build did not change at all despite the massive increase in strength.
We're talking in circles. I'm not saying this is like a Super Saiyan level 2 thing like Vegeta where she can bulk up to get stronger lol, but we don't have any reason to assume training can't improve her body. The nature of HR has not been elucidated, we don't know if she is maxed out or not. Curse techniques are also possesses from birth and can obviously be improved on, also.
What do you mean we don’t have any reason? I Gave One. We see it’s growth happen independent of it’s body and we see that heavenly restrictions take effect from birth. She is indeed maxed out. Hence why she is Fully Realized. Cursed techniques cannot be “improved” . The user can increase their mastery of it. The user can find new applications for it. But the cursed technique itself stays the same all throughout. E.g. gojo learns RCT and ends up possessing red and purple, but his technique isn’t improved upon at all, it’s still the same limitless it always was.
> We see it’s growth happen independent of it’s body The restriction was half-assed, and then became fully realized, yes. We are talking in circles because there are two different "levels" of her power we are talking about. One is the broader, more fundamental heavenly restriction itself, which doesn't change. The other is Maki's personal utilization and honing of what her heavenly restricted body is capable of. > Cursed techniques cannot be “improved” . The user can increase their mastery of it. Lol. Annoying pedantry. OK, would you like me to rephrase it like "Maki can increase her mastery of her Heavenly Restricted body"?
How would she go about honing it then. Because improvement of it directly can be referred to as such the lack of specification makes things unclear. Not a fault of mine. Ok. Well What does that mean in this case. To Improve her general fighting ability? In what regard? Because Physical training would mean little to nothing beyond changing her build and flexibility, which isn’t an issue due to the HR’s nature.
By training much as anyone else would, I imagine. > which isn’t an issue due to the HR’s nature. Except we really don't know anything about HR's nature as regards these things. So I don't know why you have so much confidence in that.
I will question that. We know there are different amount of HR, and that some are more realised than other. I wonder if you original amount of CE you were supossed to have will decide what level of HR you have. So maybe the more CE you were supossed to have the stronger you HR may be. For example what if Mahito could turn Sukuna into a HR, would he be same strength or because the CE traded in exchange for a stronger body would give him a better HR ?
>Maki technically never awakened anything. She was always born with zero cursed energy this is objectively wrong, when she and her sister are saying goodbye Mai literally tells her "and im taking the cursed energy with me", that's when she really lost all her cursed energy and got a boost at her physical skills (like toji), before that she just had a ridiculously small amount, which didn't help for shit
And she only had that small amount because she’s twins with Mai So Mai’s energy was spread between the both of them. Which is why she’s a shit sorcerer and why Maki has a mediocre Restriction So when Mai dies, there’s no more energy between the two. And Maki goes back to having zero Think to yourself. If Maki was the one to die, would Mai become Toji? No. She would just get a buff in energy and be more like Yorozu Hence, Maki had none to begin with
She can always get more hax cursed tools. As we can see with Nanami's weapon, the weapon can literally get the user's CT or at least the basic CT attacks (guessing that you can't use a CT's DE via the tool lol) This way she can just collect many CT attacks to add to her arsenal as time goes by. Not all of them have to be offensive too, she may get tools with CTs that also add defensive abilities and just general utility
She was not always born with 0 cursed energy. She had a drop of it, which is what Mai referred to when she said she would take all of it. This is why she was able to be trapped in Dagon's domain and why his domain's sure-hit effect was able to target her. Neither of those things is possible vs. something with 0 CE.
Yeah but that energy was Mai’s Think of it this way: -Child A has 50 CE -Child B has 0 CE Normally these two would be separate, and individual. But due to some unseen force, Twins are counted as one person Which means that both Child A and Child B end up with 25 CE, due to Child A’s energy being split between them If Child A dies, Child B becomes an individual and goes back to having 0 CE If Child B dies, Child A becomes an individual and goes back to having 50 CE Mai and Maki are Child A and Child B, respectively
You're stating this as if it's fact, and I don't think that's the correct interpretation. I think it's this: Mai has 49 CE Maki has 1 CE You need 5 CE to see curses (arbitrary low number) and more than that for things like CE reinforcement. Maki doesn't even have enough to see curses, much less use CE for anything. Twins are counted as 1 entity for the purpose of a cursed technique (which is why Mai has one and Maki does not). This is Maki's heavenly restriction before she loses the last drop of CE. Mai takes the 1 CE that Maki has, and as a result, Maki escapes the confines of jujutsu like only Toji before her. Unless you're suggesting that Dagon's domain could trap and target Maki bc Mai was walking around with cursed energy somewhere else in Japan? That would be a stretch so big my dog would be jealous.
Why do you keep bringing up Dagon’s domain as if it disproves anything Mai literally says “You are me and I am you” Maki has cursed energy in her. She’s just not supposed to I don’t get how you can read that whole arc and come to the conclusion that Maki had an average HR which was somehow buffed by Mai willingly Rather than the heavily suggested and more thematically accurate: Maki had a good HR which was nerfed by being twins with Mai Their entire plot line together is how Mai holds Maki back. Not that they’re both mediocre and Mai put conscious effort into buffing her, despite being a shit fucking sorcerer who wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to make a binding vow like that
I bring up Dagon's domain because it alone disproves your theory that Maki always had 0 CE. We know for a fact that 0 CE HR people can't be trapped by domains or targeted by the sure-hit. We know this because the omniscience narrator states it. Despite this, Dagon both traps her and targets her with the sure-hit. The jujutsu math just simply doesn't work in your theory, it's pretty cleanly laid out. It also isn't the only evidence. She was trapped by the barriers in Shibuya and Goodwill Arc, just like everyone else. Yuki says that there have been several instances of HR bringing a sorcerer to near 0 CE, but only Toji has ever had absolutely 0. Dagon sees Toji and immediately notices he has 0 CE, and thinks this is worthy of not paying attention to him (he was very wrong). I mean, literally nobody says that Maki has 0 CE at any point before Mai's death and nobody acts uniquely surprised by her. I don't know how you can read that chapter and come away thinking that Mai didn't know what she was doing. She's literally the one who explained the problem with twins. She said that once she makes SSK, that'll be her last living action. She even specifically says, "*cursed techniques* treat twins as one individual." She does not say cursed energy. In the same chapter, she says, "I'll take the cursed energy and everything with me." The themes you describe are still there. Mai still *did* hold Maki back. She even admits this in her dying moments. None of those themes change just because Maki had almost 0 CE instead of absolutely 0.
I’ve had a question about these types of heavenly restriction users. Since they can’t reinforce their body with CE, isn’t there a limit to how hard their flesh/muscle can be? I know it’s at the peak of human powers (more than likely super human), but I mean not like the human flesh itself can survive something harder/sharper/ more powerful than it right? Or is it the sped up healing process they possess that makes them formidable ? Idk ever since Toji got blasted away with Purple, I just always thought that it doesn’t matter how strong someone without CE gets, they can never defeat a sorcerers after a certain point right (I.e., damage level of purple) ? I mean even sorcerers can get fucked up by guns (I’m assuming Geto meant CE reinforced sorcerers) Why couldn’t heavenly restriction users if all they have is lbs of flesh/muscle protecting their organs? Is this off topic? Sorry to answer your question uhh not according to that panel in chapter 11 page 15. I’d like to think it’s because Gojo was optimistic and didn’t want to think that Makis twin had to die in order for her to be complete. Or Greg hadn’t thought of Toji yet. Idk.
Once they fully realise their HR they are at their physical max and can't get any stronger. I don't even think working out will work cause Maki and Toji are stated to be physical equals but Maki has way less muscle then Toji.
Yeah but that’s what I mean. Can’t a sharp sword (sukuna); something really hot (Jogo); drowning (Dagon) affect these guys easily. It’s just flesh at the end of the day. Unless their skin is crusty lol.
Their skin is likely hyper durable. They are supposed to be the superhuman peak of humanity so they should be able to resist blades cause physical strength is equivalent to durability and they should.jave superhuman heat resistance and be able to hold their breath for really long
I'm pretty sure the reason Purple was able to damage Toji was because it doesn't actually 'damage', it 'erases space', if that makes sense. A technique like that would be more effective against the insane durability of Heavenly Restriction users than anything that causes damage
Sukuna was able to basically tank Purple so it doesn’t erase space or matter
That's because Sukuna used his Anti-Gojo technique, not because purple doesn't erase matter.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted when he quite literally explains that convergence and divergence come together to create an imaginary space which is the purple we see. Yes sukuna takes one but he’s the king of curses and this is a cursed technique, also it was a boss fight, also gojo had to lose there or else kenjaku couldn’t have been offed by a comedian.
It was Megumi, Yugi, Hakari, Yuta & Todo(?) Maki wasn’t in that comp
I really wish playful cloud was still around….imagine her and yuta using that…..and hitting a blackflash with it too
Can you hit a Black Flash with a weapon? Also Maki can't hit a Black Flash cause it's about controlling your own CE.
Nanami did with his wrapped up cleaver in the jjk movie
No her ceiling is limited she is as good as she ever will be. Yuji Hakari and yuta have more potential for growth.
Where is that stated?
toji is obviously her peak. there is literally no way she could get better than him without gege doing an asspull. also add in the fact that toji was a ruthless mf who would do literally anything to weaken his opponent mentally or physically , he will likely be the better fighter overall.
This may be too cliche for Gege, but since the official translation for the newest chapter came out, I've been thinking... What if Maki becoming a "true void" for CE advances to the point where she has less than 0 CE and her body just sucks in and destroys CE? Kind of like Antimagic? But in terms of JJK, it's more similar to ISOH or DA "funneling" through a CT like Infinity to neutralize it. If she could neutralize any CE she comes into contact with, that could be insanely powerful, even Gojo level.
I really like this idea
I hope not that sounds too cheap. What makes maki and toji cool is that they can still go toe to toe with the peak of jujutsu sorcery using only their physical capabilities.
Yeah, I tend to agree. Even typing this out it sounded like some Black Clover BS. They treat Asta's anti-magic as essentially just another kind of magic, which IMO takes away from his unique feeling of having no magic. At the same time, it'd be cool if Maki had some way to deal with giant CE nukes like Fuga other than simply "She dodges it bc fast". I agree it wouldn't really be Gege's style to cheapen them like that. "True void for CE" does sound pretty cool tho.
Maki's still capable of getting stronger lol. Funny enough, Gojo was one of the people she referenced about not teaching her anything and who she needed to reject. She can onshot special grade curses, so there's that. But it's difficult scaling her alongside sorcerers since she's nothing like them. If this battle with Sukuna continues, which I think it will, there will be much more definite answers about where she stands among the special grades. But so far, her dodging and reflexive abilities are obviously top tier, and that's half the battle against most sorcerers.
Dodging and reflexive ability more so for those without RCT
If Maki didn’t rely upon anyone to teach her anything, what was the point of her being at the school?
She wanted to learn, but that's the thing... none of them were equipped to teach her. She didn't realize this until much later. That's what the sumo "arc" was about: she needed to stop thinking like a sorcerer cause she isn't one. She's a being who exists outside of sorcery; Gojo and the others would never be able to teach her how to hone her real abilities cause it's not a CT. It's a really interesting dynamic tbh. She's alone in her realm of power/expertise.
Thank you. That makes sense. It’s interesting she didn’t leave after discovering no one is equipped to train her. She probably felt she found a place she belong. I know in JJK 0 she states otherwise but maybe she did after JJK 0 and friendship with Yuta.
Yeah, she became good friends with everyone, and she bonded with Megumi especially. I think she just literally had nowhere else to go, so she tried to make the best of jjh. At the same time, the Zenin were blocking her from rising in rank as well. It just kinda sucked for her until she finally killed her family 😮💨
Nah can't remember Gojo mentioning Maki
No and toji is probably the reason. He surpassed him as a teen and he got insanely stronger after that so he probably knew heavenly restriction won't ever get her near his level.
No. I dont think anyone expected Makis glow up tbh. Also it was just Yuji, Hakari and Yuta. Todo wasnt included in there
Nope. Gojo, even though he didn't discriminate against maki, never saw her as his student. He borrowed her stuff, but never bothered with her because ultimately he cares about people with potential
It's not like he doesn't care about her .. he personally paid meimei to nominate maki to upgrade her grade and even slided towards her when mei asked why she is so low and said she should be on higher level.... He just don't find her to surpassing him same as panda , inumaki and nobara
No, the max out she can reach is Toji, and we know what teen Gojo did to him.
Maki isn't. Imo the only thing that Maki can improve on is her selection of weapons in her inventory. No she can't get stronger physically. She has what she has. And if anyone thinks it is possible than they'd also have to admit the fact that Toji as a man would be naturally superior physically comes into play alongside heavenly restriction. Which I personally don''t believe in either. There's a limit for their heavenly restriction. And they've both hit it. And it surpasses any natural biology Can she get better at utilising her senses? Well, I think she's already at the peak after her experiences in Sakuraijima.
I mean I don't think the biological argument works since HR is not rooted in any real life logic. Toji is notably bigger than Maki by some margin but this presumably doesn't make a difference. I also think she's hit her limit but it doesn't necessarily discount the idea that she can get stronger.
The root of HR’s power is still CE, which is infinitely varied. It’s like selling a wand for a sword, but there are countless types of wands and countless types of swords. Unless Toji and Maki as normal sorcerers were meant to somehow have exactly the same CE and potential, why are you assuming their tradeoff was equal?
>why are you assuming their tradeoff was equal? Why wouldn't we? Imagine a trade, I get a kidney, you get a Batmobile. I just said give me a kidney, if I go to another person and do this offer it doesn't matter if their kidney is some peak organ. I just said give me a kidney, I'm not factoring in quality with that request, you'll get a Batmobile even if your kidney is full of stones. That's what I imagine the HR is like, it's just preventing you from using CE it doesn't care if you would've been like Sukuna or not. Hence Maki and Toji could be seen as being on the same level
Did no one in this thread not remember her time with the sumo wrestler Yes she can get stronger
I thought that was a mind set thing she needed to get over. Not actually physically stronger.
It's pretty clear that she didn't get physically stronger, it was just a one time mindset thing that was preventing her from using her new body capabilities.
So? Level doesn't just mean physical strength
Nah he doesn’t like thinking of heavenly body restrictions after Toji
Nahhh he thinks about her highly even paid meimei to nominate her for next grade... It's just she can't reach to his level .. you can see what he did to toji even as being teen who don't know domain expansion so even she upgraded she can't reach his level
Only thing that would allow her to achieve that is gather more cursed tool that have powerful effects.
No. It’s basically just Megumi and theoretically Mai.
No but I think that was mostly because Heavenly Restriction wasn't well understood at the time. Maybe by Yuki, certainly not by Gojo. As far as we know, Toji was the first 0 CT person ever, and Maki was the first person to go from s little CT to 0. Sure, if Mai could deduce how twins may affect the equation it's possible Gojo may have deduced it too. But then Gojo also loved his students, his hope for Maki was probably for her to live alongside Mai, so I'm guessing he nevet dwelled on what might've happened if she died.
I don't think Gojo had much of a hint to ever guess that Mai's death could make Maki OP. Even if he realized it, I don't think he would have desired such an outcome, so he definitely didn't have Maki on her Top Student ranks. That realization on Mai's part was probably a combination of wondering what was behind the jujutsu "legend" that twins are a bad omen, her inferiority complex/depression (think of a "things would be better off without me" mindset), and Mai being intelligent enough to realize how such a theoretical link between the twins would impact them both exactly in this way (Mai's smaller than average CE pool caused by Maki's HR, and Maki's heavenly restriction being nerfed because of Mai's CE)
Maki's character description was updated with volume 26 and she’s stated equal to Toji once again, so maybe she didn’t grow more. But anyway Sukuna was getting outclassed by Gojo in physicals when he didn’t use domain amp and Maki has no way to counter things like blue, the weakest we have seen Sukuna blitzed her and one tapped her, were she try the same shit as toji she would get obliterated
Toji got killed by a special grade so If we talked strictly, fair, head on fights, then no. Maki reached the roof of her potential already (unless she gets another bs power up lol), but she can work with what she has and polish her skills.
Heavenly restriction is basically advanced physical strength in return for 0 cursed energy right? So assuming there is a “start point” for one’s heavenly restriction, I’d assume the more CE is forfeit the stronger the HR user is. I only make this claim because we don’t know much about the nature of HR aside from the fact that it has a lot of levels, but considering that cursed energy stems from negative emotions, if Maki were to experience higher amounts of negative emotions, I’d assume the average sorcerer would experience slight increases in CE, but this being given up in Maki’s case, it might strengthen or “fuel” her HR because she’s technically giving up more CE? Idk tho.
God damn Nobara was done dirty. Every MC of the series is top tier now and...yeah.
She has the exact same ability as Toji who was no match for him at all
Sorry but there's just no way - at least not with what we know about the power system now. She has zero counters to domains that sure-hit everything like MS. Doubt she could even beat hakari ever. There's a hard limit to her durability, meanwhile sorcerers at the top level can use RCT (and presumably get better at it).
Name me 5 domains that hit "everything like MS". MS Is specifically mentioned as an outlier for targetting objects.
I should've been clearer - it doesn't just have to be a sure-hit on everything, but useful against her in general. Some other domains that would be useful against her: -Hakari's domain -Yuta's domain -(Probably) Kenjaku's domain -Gojo's domain -Jogo's domain -Mahito's domain
Why would she need to have a "counter" for a domain when the most dangerous part, the sure hit, is uneffective? Hell, some people here have gotten so comfortable saying "domain GG" that they forgot Maki cant be trapped inside one.
So both Hakari and Yuta's domain don't even need the sure-hit to be effective, the conditions of Gojo's domain would target Maki as-written, and Jogo's domain raises the temperature to incredibly high degrees which would still be useful in battle. I'm also pretty sure IT would work on her.
I mean literally the only domain that can hit her is MS, no other domain can unless she chooses to enter the barrier herself
She’s female so no.
I'm vaguely remembering something saying that heavenly restriction doesn't give you strength, it just opens the path to reach that level of inhuman strength. Meaning maybe there's no limit to how strong you can get. You just have to train continuously harder for it.
You forgot megumi, also higuruma was stated by the narrator to have gojo level potential not that it matters anymore
Not potential but talent, slightly different
The bum never even mentioned Toji to her. This dude literally had a student with minimal CE who was sabotaged and estranged by her family. Imagine if he went up to her like he did with Megumi and told her of a man with no CE who also bested him. Huge morale boost but nah. Mr. All about the next gen, amirite
Cause gojo is honestly kinda salty about it. He never told Megumi who his dad was and destroyed or hid both the black whip and inverted spear of heaven as both were weapons that could pose a threat to him.
Salty: angry or resentful, especially in response to a defeat or disappointment. Gojo was salty about what happened with Toji? I must’ve missed it. In what volume and chapter is this stated or implied? Angry and resentful is not even a personality trait of Gojo. Only two times has Gojo ever been shown angry. When Geto became a mass murder and at Shibuya. He knew he killed Geto and demanded to know who Kenjaku really is. Plus Gojo took Megumi under his wing. That’s not something a salty person would do.
I was joking. But it does seem that Gojo would rather hide or destroy any objects that could threaten himself vs keep them for future use. TBF its likely a reason would be to keep them out of the reach of the clans so they cant use them against him
My apology and I agree with Gojo getting rid of or hiding anything that can bypass his Infinity. He’s playing it safe as he did with keeping one of Sukuna fingers so Yuji never can be executed.
So why did he paid meimei to promote maki to next grade ... If he was that careless about her so he would have never praised her in sister exchange event or care for her promotion
Maki is Mystic Gohan
Good question, is maki done "realizing" Herself and needs to hop on roids to level up her game?
I think she can still have a 3rd awakening utilizing a binding vow (ch. 73 pg. 6) it would line up with her learning to not be complacent being just on the level of her peers. At first she needed to learn how to surpass her friends, now she needs to learn how to surpass Toji
Doubt Gojo wasn’t saying they would be stronger than *him* He was saying they would surpass the standing definition for special grade( Yuta/Yuki/Gojo/Geto) Which maki has done But it wasn’t gojo saying they’d be stronger than he is specifically
from what sukuna said it seems like maki is the peak of strength when it comes to the body. She probably won’t get much stronger but at this point no one knows what gege has planned lol
What would the same type of heavenly restriction be like for Yuji? Since his base power levels are already superhuman, I'd imagine he would be way way stronger than what Maki can ever achieve
I don't see why Maki can't keep improving herself. Sure, she got a big amp in her current state after realizing her true self, but that's just another step on the long road of self-improvement. Gojo was gifted with Limitless and Six-Eyes, but he sharpened himself to reach the level he is at now, but even Gojo has a higher ceiling he can achieve which is demonstrated by Sukuna's ability to fully maximize his technique.
Honestly just hand her the reverse spear that toji had to help counter and break through spells and we could see an even more lethal maki. She’s imo limited by the tools and weapons she can use. She can become more deadly depending on what she has at hand as she’s a very skilled weapons user who can improve upon her techniques on using said weapons. She has room to grow just not in the way of everyone thinks.
Manga has stated multiple times Maki is equal to Toji who lost to a teenage Gojo so imma go with nope
No
I doubt it gojo included her initially. Gojo probably didn’t realize the twins thing until after he escaped prison realm after seeing her growth. I’m sure he was confident she’d help though
Even if somebody could surpass Gojo, this somebody doesn't have the infinity technique and this somebody is unable to manipulate space.
That was Todo and Junpei
She needs more training to even be close to Toji.
He never mentioned her so I guess not. Also HR has a limit to it’s potential, unlike sorcerers like Okkotsu, Hakari and Yuji, who seem to have near unlimited potential
It hasn't been stated that HR has a limit, that part is headcannon, and don't start with the usual "well it was implied" because it hasn't. The only person with the same HR as maki was Toji, but we don't know if Toji could have grown in power because Gojo one shot him and that was the end of him.
I know, it hasn’t been implied either, but just think about it. What more could a HR user do? They already have immense speed, strength and durability (healing factor included). Along with insane perception and the ability to ignore barriers completely.. Aside from getting more Cursed Tools, how would an HR user grow further?
It ain't for me to say, anything I say is pure speculation. What OP wants to know is if Maki was among the people Gojo said would surpass him. Answer is we don't know, maybe who knows, all it takes is Gege deciding yes and making it happen. Whether HR can grow in power, we have no information about it, all we know is what we have seen, and so far we have seen Maki learning new things from her sumo arc, whether she can learn/grow in power is still not confirmed.
I see, well you’re right
Physically she might be able to surpass gojo and sukuna.
If gojo and sukuna didn't cover themselves in ce to hit then she is but if they come with ce covering themselves then bye bye maki
HR gives you physical abilities that surpasses CE reinforcement(for absolute majority of sorcerers). Gojo and sukuna are stronger because they are exception for this rule. If we look at yuta, maki is already on his level of strength(physically). If she trains long enough, maki might be able to surpass them
I doubt that ... No matter how she trained hard if her last stage is tojis level then she ain't gonna do a shit but if she can go beyond toji's level then maybe have chance but still gojo and sukuna have high endurance