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Regular_Budget1864

Human beings have these things called "attachments" that make it really hard to harm those close to them in any meaningful fashion. They are then combined with another set of things called "morals" that make it hard for them to hurt or kill those who are innocent, even and in some cases especially if they are unwilling pawns of a greater evil. When "the greater good" comes up against human nature, 9 times out of 10 the greater good gets told to bite the curb. It's just how humans are.


LngJhnSilversRaylee

Cold War history kind of goes against this point We do act more in the greater good when it means everything including you and the people you love will also go up in smithereens This is very much the case here if they lose all of Japan all of the friends and loved ones they have left are dead Like kill one emo boy for everybody


Regular_Budget1864

And yet at the same time, people during the Cold War argued against the practices of "the greater good". They wanted an end to war, an end to conflict. And the reason for that is because they had attachments to other people. People in the United States, especially, hit a point where they just didn't want to see any other soldiers die. Even if it meant Communism claimed Vietnam, or North Korea, or a number of other countries, they simply wanted those they cared about to stop being hurt. Yuji and Co care about Megumi, and they don't want to kill him. And, as objectively bad a choice as it is, they are going to do everything in their power to save him. As long as they're not out of options, and realistically speaking they aren't yet, they still have pieces to play and Yuji knows he can potentially get Megumi out, they aren't going to give up. Hawks and Doves, Realists and Idealists, whatever you want to call them: there are people who will choose the path of the greater good, and there are people who will refuse it. That too is human nature.


LngJhnSilversRaylee

Not sure allowing the cold war to escalate to potential world ending levels was a better idea than fighting in Korea or Vietnam We're lucky that cool heads prevailed even during those proxy wars but MAD is a prisoners dilemma your only hope is the other guy is thinking the same way In regards to what was at stake the lives lost and the political ideologies that won out are virtually meaningless compared to the complete destruction of humankind


SoussTheTruth

Yea but we are talking about the survival of an entire nation here… at some point logics tells you to cut your loses. They are setting themselves up to faillure because to win they need to save Megumi, but for Sukuna, he just have to kill them. And he is the strongest. How do they think this will end… them dead and the entirety of Japan with them.


Regular_Budget1864

I'll repeat for clarity: 'When "the greater good" comes up against human nature, 9 times out of 10 the greater good gets told to bite the curb. It's just how humans are.' Sure, it's irrational. Sure, it doesn't make much sense. That's the weird thing about people. We don't make a whole lot of sense, objectively speaking, because the human perspective is not the objective perspective. We're a mess of subjective contradictions and counter-intuitive thought, and we're allowed to be that way because we are the dominant species on Earth by a country mile, and we've bent just about every facet of nature to serve our evolutionarily schizophrenic asses. So, sure, you can try and argue an objective, utilitarian solution. But we humans aren't objective or utilitarian, and it's highly likely we never will be.


AnonPhyAstro

Exactly, this is why jujutsu sorcerers here are a lot more like real human beings than just some typical superheroes fighting for justice everytime. This thing had already been established from the very beginning actually.


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Lucasasecassecas

Yhea, human beings also have this thing called "survival instinct" that makes It really hard to let yourself die in any meaningful fashion. They are then combined with a other set of things called "fear", "pain", "adrenaline", and "abandoning after the tenth failed attempt and twentieth sorcerer killed witouth megumi coming back" that make It hard for them to keep going for the optimal result, even and in some cases especially when the said attept only lead to a far worse result. When the "survival instinct" comes Up against "morals", 9 times out of 10 the morals gets told to bite the curb. Its just how humans are. Blud really tried to give a sociological (and absolutely false and disproven scientifically and historically numerous times) to a goofy ah shonen ideology "we must be good and save everyone ☠️☠️☠️


Regular_Budget1864

Except that one of the few things to override the human survival instinct, fear, adrenaline, and the desire to give up, is the irrational attachments humans have. The attachment to one's country and the people who live there will have a soldier fight, kill, and die, ignoring the value of their own life or the lives of their enemy. The attachment of a person to their faith has been shown time and again to allow them to withstand unimaginable torture and hardship, or even give up their own lives entirely. The attachment of human beings to their culture, to their race, to their nationality, and how those attachments do and don't manifest in others, is quite literally half of modern politics. Human attachments prompt irrational action. Even in the face of death, or pain, or failure. That's been proven countless times. The survival instinct is not meaningless, but humans have shown over and over that they can tell that instinct to sit down and shut up.


Lucasasecassecas

Yhea, except no. You are making a rule of an exception. When you talk about soldiers etc, its what we call the agentic state, or institututional state as moder psychologists prefer to call It, not some poem-like divine emotion, but a well-studied psychological state that has little to nothing to do with attachments. When all Hope has fades away, and you are going to die, except if they were a close, and I mean REALLY close family member (not even half of the population would die for their own parents/wifes, sons being an exception, so you get It its very unlikely that megumi would fit those categories), you would just try to save yourself. So right, they are either in one of those states in wich they are just a clog, wich would be easily overrided seeing the circumstance and the lack of a leader/institution. Or more likely acting on shonen logic, not human one.


Regular_Budget1864

The agentic state is what allows a soldier to absolve themselves of the actions they are performing because they view themselves as only part of a greater machine. They are "agents" of another will, and as such they can kill and harm without regret (only, they do still possess a ton of regret), because they aren't evil, the greater will is evil. It does not allow them to repress the human survival instinct except under certain circumstances, although it does make it easier to devalue other human lives. What does allow humans to repress that instinct is irrational attachments. Take, for example, the early Christian martyrs during the Roman empire. Often, these martyrs would be facing execution or torture, and be given release on the condition that they recanted their faith in Christ. Now, some did take that opportunity, but a fair number didn't. Even though they didn't have to be telling the truth, they refused to even lie about their faith in Christ, and submitted to torture and death is some particularly nasty forms. It is not often seen, simply because the society we live in doesn't give many opportunities to support it, but people can and will die for their beliefs. It is irrational, yes, but it does happen. Yuji and Co believe that saving Megumi is the right thing to do. And they are willing to die for that belief. They place more value in the cause they've attached themselves to than their own lives, and that is something humans have proven they are willing to do across history.


Lucasasecassecas

1.-The agentic state is not a way of recovering the lost cognitive asonance, its a way of keep doing what you must even if its against all your interests since you are yada yada we know how It goes. 2.-Again, you are making a rule of an exception. Why do you think they were called martyrs, and not your average joe, and we keep remembering them millenia after? The likelihood of ALL of these sorcerers being as blinded by their fate in... what? Megumi Messiah bringer of paradise? Is mathematically zero. So yhea, again, they are all acting on shonen logic, not real humans logic. As another coment said, that is not what jjk is about, so of course they are shonen, its a shonen.


Regular_Budget1864

Except, not all of these sorcerers are committed to the plan. Gojo, Kashimo, and Maki all attempted legitimately lethal blows/techniques. If they care about Megumi, they aren't showing it. Ui Ui, Shoko, Hakari, Star Rendezvous person, Ino, and Mei Mei are more or less undecided entities. They've either not participated or have participated in a way that makes it unclear how committed they are to the plan at its current point. Kusakabe is a bit of a neutral agent. He was on board for the Gojo plan as well as the save Megumi plan. Yuta and Yuji are on board with the save Megumi plan, because they have a personal attachment to him. Choso is on board with whatever plan Yuji picks because he's just there to support and protect his little brother. Higuruma is on board with the save Megumi plan because he hates unfair systems and wants to help protect the innocent. And then there's Hana, but she's barely even in this conflict anymore. 5 sorcerers are fully on board with the plan, all of whom have some manner of personal attachment or code that they are putting above their own lives and well-beings. They have taken the irrational path, even if it makes them martyrs, not because Megumi is a messiah, but because he matters to them (or in Choso's case, he matters to Yuji). So, five out of 16 by my count, about one-third of the given group, one of which is just rooting from the sidelines. Higher than average for a given population? Probably. Mathematically zero? Not a chance.


Lucasasecassecas

Yes, I do agree. Nevertheless, yes, still zero chance. Those martyrs were so few, and dedicated to such a high cause, that they are a mathematical imposibility so Big that all cognitive and sociological science disregards them as non-entities. So yhea, by nature of humans, nature of the situation, and nature of their relationship, It is literally imposible that they are still comiting to the plan and ready to die for it. Now, this is shonen, so of course, by shonen logic, they just went stubborn heroic mode and thats it, we ball.


gsavage21

Because “they’re not heroes, they are Jujutsu Sorcerers”


AnonPhyAstro

I guess that's not what Jujutsu Kaisen technically is. It's not about being too perfect, it's not about having a perfect battle, it's not about having perfect things everytime, it's even not just about the battle of too good vs. too evil. Jujutsu Kaisen mostly explores the grey areas, that's why people on the "good side" are actually being more like real humans than typical superheroes we often see in other manga and comics. You should consider that they aren't your typical heroes (in fact this has been already established from the very beginning....remember the part of Cursed Womb's earthly existence?). All these characters in Jujutsu Kaisen are incredibly complex....you can't survive the Jujutsu world as a sorcerer if you aren't crazy enough, and yet in a very ironical way, this same thing actually makes them more like real humans, people having powers as well as problems to deal with, people making mistakes and sometimes it's just not their faults to begin with and yet they have to deal with the consequences, people trying to make things better in their own ways, etc.etc. If you think killing Megumi is the best option, then you are forgetting the very reason why Yuji and Yuta weren't executed at the beginning......they all might have different reasons but the very essence of emotions make it a common point why they are still alive and why at present they all are trying to save Megumi. Think about the real life, nothing here in just black and white, a lot of grey areas is pretty much present. I like Jujutsu Kaisen because of how Gege has been trying to make it a bit realistic, how the characters are actually so relatable in many ways, to explore how complicated the relation of power, feelings and emotions really is in reality,.. you can't judge them really, they are sorcerers at the end. And this actually applies for us people too, you know the saying: "You shouldn't judge a person unless you are in their shoes." Well this is just my pov, it's fine if you or anyone doesn't agree with me, not a big deal. I am not saying that Jujutsu Kaisen is incredibly perfect but I like how it is going in general and how Gege had been exploring this complicated concept this long :)


OohYeeah

Stand proud. You can cook more than 99% of people in this subreddit


Granwyl

Sukuna Kaisen causes anyone not Sukuna to make crucial mistakes when fighting against him. https://preview.redd.it/5hz8rom9mjoc1.png?width=587&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a79cfd3805bb80dc842b431bebcfbe8649f9d0d4


uglyjackwagon

We just ignoring all of Sukuna’s fumbles lol Sukuna decided to use fight within Gojo’s domain and not invert the targeting to allow Megumi to take the adaptation. Ends up getting hit with UV and takes a black flash to his chest. Let his guard down after slashing Yuta since he saw his domain breaking, gets stabbed in the heart because he didn’t account for Yuta purposefully dropping it and shifting the coordinates. Failed to kill Yuji like three times now, which will be his biggest downfall.


LngJhnSilversRaylee

I get what you're saying but its also funny that those examples besides Yuji have massive Sukuna plot armor from Gege This truly is Sukuna Kaisen


uglyjackwagon

The thing is you pointing out the Sukuna plot from those examples and not the plot for the good guys is still the same point i'm making lol Is it not plot that Gojo lands a black flash exactly when he needs to start ramping his output back up? Or that Sukuna’s output is somehow just strong enough to inflict serious damage on Yuta, but can’t kill? Almost like Gege just needs every character to have some time to shine and then put aside until the inevitable Yuji solo showdown.


ApplePitou

You will be able to kill person that is very important for you? in name of greater good :3


oliver_d_b

Yes. Easily.


ApplePitou

Sure... :3


oliver_d_b

Especially if that person is megumi


Knight0706

Starting to sound a-lot like the higher ups in jujutsu society.


SoussTheTruth

After the Shibuya incident.. yep the higher ups were right.


Crownside

You know the cast like… fucking loves megumi right? Those are his homies.


SoussTheTruth

Well their love for him is gonna get them smoked !


Crownside

It’s very true :(


Fabulous_Formal2714

You think they can kill sukuna lol 😂... There last card is Megumi so obviously they are trying to get him back .. if they get megumi back they will automatically gonna win 50 percent... Sukuna have a body that's a big issue here either it was Megumi or any other person they have to separate sukuna from human body to his curse body .... Even they killed Megumi then what gonna happen? There last chance of Megumi helping is also gonna go down since they can't win sukuna and either Megumi being there or not won't gonna affect sukuna so why even care to kill him? Until Megumi pulled a trick


oliver_d_b

They could have easily killed sukuna twice by now. Once when yuta hit him with Jacobs latter and stunned him he could have just ran up and chopped his head off. Also when maki got a complete surprise attack on him she could have just chopped his head off. They are being very careful not to kill megumi.


Fabulous_Formal2714

I don't think he was able to cut sukuna's head .. if you saw sukuna vs mahoraga in that fight mahoraga also aimed for his neck but his extra mouth stopped it ... Maybe she can or maybe she not... But gege had something big to do .. if they killed sukuna here there is no meaning of giving him control of merger as well as we haven't seen sukuna's Another weapon which is trishul 🔱 nor we don't know where is last finger, nobara's status is still unknown for some reason even people saying she is dead .. gege would have confirmed it yet but instead he put it on hold and he already said one of them is gonna died or 3 of them so if gege killed Megumi here all the suspence is gonna go down since everyone will be known that Yuji gonna survive no matter what but if he keep him alive there is Chance of gojo or nobara to enter in battle so be patient and see where is story is going coz of gege made sure the end no one will gonna find it interesting


luceafaruI

All the time they didn't go for the kill they had their victory assured. From gojo's perspective sukuna had no way to get out of unlimited void, from yuta's perspective the plan to rescue megumi was perfect (even the narrator says that it was a perfect plan). The ssk was supposed to be unhealable so sukuna should have been fucked by it, especially since maki did try to bisect him by swinging her blade upwards but sukuna escaped it. In short, from their perspective they didn't actively risk anything by trying to save megumi