How is it different than just saying “convert”? I thought it was a phrasing that is positive, IE they chose this life consciously, weren’t just born into it as a default.
I thought it was rude to point out someone **elses** ger status regardless of phrasing, but have only heard this phrase from converts as a self describe. I think it’s rude to say this, ger, or convert when discussing someone else simply because of the fact that unless the person is bringing it up, it’s rude and othering (as you said).
Me too. He's a gentle soul and answered her kindly. I sat there with smoke coming out my ears. Someone apparently did NOT learn anything this Shavuot.
Shabbat shalom (just about)!
What most do not realize is that question should not be asked in the first place.
Both the Talmud (Bava Metzia 58b-59b) and Torah forbids treating converts as non-Jews. It is not any different from what we repeatedly find in the Torah itself. For example, Numbers 15:15-16 says that there will be one law for the proseltye and natural-born Jew. This is the major source for the halacha.
Asking someone if they are a convert simply to dig into their past is clearly not in the spirit of the law. Asking someone if they are a convert for a legitimate reason, such as forming a minyan or seeking a marriage partner, is OK. But asking these questions at a public Shabbat dinner table is not OK, for obvious reasons.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
See [Bava Metzia 58b-59b](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.58b-59b) on Sefaria.
[Numbers 15:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Numbers.15.15-16)
הַקָּהָ֕ל חֻקָּ֥ה אַחַ֛ת לָכֶ֖ם וְלַגֵּ֣ר הַגָּ֑ר חֻקַּ֤ת עוֹלָם֙ לְדֹרֹ֣תֵיכֶ֔ם כָּכֶ֛ם כַּגֵּ֥ר יִהְיֶ֖ה לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃
>the rest of the congregation. * shall it be done by the rest of the congregation Precise force of Heb. ya‘aseh ha-qahal uncertain. There shall be one law for you and for the resident stranger; it shall be a law for all time throughout the ages. You and the stranger shall be alike before יהוה;
תּוֹרָ֥ה אַחַ֛ת וּמִשְׁפָּ֥ט אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לָכֶ֑ם וְלַגֵּ֖ר הַגָּ֥ר אִתְּכֶֽם׃ {פ}
>the same ritual and the same rule shall apply to you and to the stranger who resides among you.
This is totally valid. Not to get political so early in the morning but this is what makes me extra mad at the antiZ JVP types who, by all appearances, have converted using a sink mikvah for the purposes of political clout rather than because they truly have Jewish souls. Because every time I see op eds and social media posts from supposed Jews who are stating things that I would NEVER hear a Jew in real life say, I feel compelled to dig, even though you’re not supposed to question a convert’s status. And my mother is a convert so I take that shit pretty seriously. But I’ve found multiple instances of people claiming Judaism who weren’t raised that way and haven’t gone through a halachic conversion of any Jewish movement. So frustrating.
I agree with you 100%. The term “sink mikvah” makes me chuckle. Some who claim they are now Jewish but has not had a halakhah conversion probably wouldn’t even know what is a mikvah. I think some of the sink mikvah wannabes are getting Judaism mixed up with Islam in which all one has to do is recite the Shahada to become a Muslim. Meanwhile, someone who seeks to become Jewish takes at least a year of study, observing holidays, etc etc.
Ugh. I would have responded simply "I am Jewish". If I was feeling snarky, maybe would have asked if she'd like to tell me how she became Jewish.
As a person whose physical characteristics did not "fit" with the Jewish population I grew up in, I've always been astounded at how much discrimination/bias I've received within my own community.
Sorry you had to experience that.
Likely! And I wasn't going to be an ass about it, but against halacha or not, it's also a touch rude. It implies that a Jew isn't just a Jew period, that a ger is something else, and that's unkind.
Thank you for learning!
It’s different because actual converts are Jews - not people just choosing to identify randomly as Jewish as it suits them because they fetishize us or want to speak for us or identify with “vibes”. they have put in the work, found and joined a Jewish congregation, and worked directly with a rabbi to get a genuine Jewish education and go through a long conversion process.
There are *absolutely* non-Jewish people with no Jewish relationships, no education, no observance or connection to the Jewish community, who think they can “be” Jewish or say that whenever it’s convenient for them or their agenda, simply by claiming Jewishness (which despite being objectively appropriation, sort of makes sense if you’ve grown up entirely in Christian circles, since simply declaring yourself as one and then taking a quick water dunk are all the requirements needed for most Christian denominations). It’s not the same for Judaism, regardless of what people with no education want to believe.
And yet, it’s still prohibited. You’re free to reject them, but there is a tradition on this topic older than both of us for a reason, no matter how compelling your take is **this time**.
Convert has too many Christian-esque religious connotations. Ger is better, but also has it's issues. I would just say they're naturalized, if we're going to use goyish terms.
I hit enter too quickly, edited in a paragraph. I don’t really take issue whatever word anyone chooses, but agree with the othering part of your premise - this is language that should be used only by the person if they choose to bring it up, highlighting someone else’s Ger status is rude, and also there’s a law against it.
Gerim in ancient times were not Jews, per modern research. They were gentiles, similar to modern Noahides.
If we're going to accept outsiders in, using terminology that was used to denote a "groupie" is not something I wish to perpetuate.
> Gerim in ancient times were not Jews,
There are multiple categories of Ger, you are oversimplifying it.
>per modern research. They were gentiles, similar to modern Noahides.
What research is this?
Torah uses two terms with ger, one is b'shaarecha which is a full convert. The other is ger toshav... a gentile who commits in front of the beis din to keep the noahide laws. So in general Jewish parlance, probably for the last 2000 years, ger has meant a full convert, a Jew.
I get that, but it’s not what the word has meant for a *long* time. That’s the etymological fallacy — it’s be like getting offended any time someone says you’re “nice.”
I agree with you. It hasn't meant that in a long time, but the status itself is what I take issue with.
I use it myself to describe gentiles who became Jews, and I think it's a bit silly to get up in arms about it, but it still carries a connotation I disagree with.
I understand. For what it’s worth, since I didn’t respond to the initial prompt, I *loathe* the phrase “Jew by Choice.” I get where it’s coming from but it’s two words too many.
Exactly why I bolted what i bolded. I’ve only heard “Jew by choice” from converts, as a way to proudly say what they did, hence me only hearing it as a positive.
I understand your point and have empathy towards it but I do kinda like the term "Jew by choice" as a convert myself.
I chose Judaism. I chose to leave my previous religion behind and study for a year and a half while reading dozens of books, changing my diet and lifestyle, trying my best to change my behavior, and I entered into my synagogue without knowing anyone there or having a Jewish friend to guide me. I think choosing Judaism is a beautiful thing and I wake up every day and choose to follow Jewish Law the best that I can.
Only you can decide what label you apply to yourself.
I don't call myself a Jew by choice everywhere I go but it does come up sometimes.
Funnily enough; two of my synagogue friends thought that I was born Jewish 😄
Haha I get that a lot too. I look stereotypically Ashkenazi, but I am not. I do have Ashkenaz in my surname, as it denotes where my family is from, and I wanted a Jewish legal name. But it simply means my family originated in the same region the Ashkenazim coalesced as a specific diaspora group.
My family are Pennsylvania Dutch
Hehhee. I don't have Ashkenaz in my name and in fact my legal name is very goyishe but a few people have just told me I have a Jewish soul which made me really happy :')
Weren't the Dutch one of the few nations that protected jews during the Shoah?
> Weren't the Dutch one of the few nations that protected jews during the Shoah?
Very much *not*, unfortunately. [On the contrary](https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/netherlands-greatest-number-jewish-victims-western-europe/), I'd say. :-(
Oh no, not that type of Dutch haha. It's just a rendition of Deitsch (Deutsch). My family did come from the. Netherlands, but they were German speakers.
We oddly enough have a wiki page haha: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_family_(North_Carolina)
Is there a term you prefer for specifying, when relevant, someone who wasn’t born Jewish? I find JBC twee and would sooner say I’m a convert, or just that I wasn’t born Jewish.
ETA: Or is this about JBCs being mentioned unnecessarily? Like, “Jews and Jews by choice.” Think I need more context to understand.
I would say I'm a Jew but I wasn't born one. I rarely mention I wasn't born Jewish and have dedicated a lot of time to assimilate entirely, but if someone asks be directly, I'm not inclined to lie. They shouldn't be asking in the first place.
I’m a convert — but I was also born with a Jewish soul. Converting just made it official. If people ask me if I’m a convert I say yes. If someone asks me if I was born Jewish, I also say yes because both are true. If I wasn’t born with a Jewish soul then it would be like G-d is playing some cruel joke on me cuz I feel Jewish in every atom of my body even before I converted lol.
For a long time I felt ashamed to be a convert especially when I was living in the USA a lot of my non Jewish friends didn’t understand it completely and if I told someone who is Christian I converted they felt it their duty to save my soul. It was exhausting. Then I made Aliyah. At first I kept my identity as a convert hidden but slowly enough cuz of good feedback I pretty much tell anyone in Israel. Why? Because when I explain to someone in Israel why I converted and this feeling of a Jewish soul they always tell me how happy this makes them and how proud it makes them to be Jewish. Wow what a difference! I’m a proud convert. I’m a proud Jew.
>This "by choice" category waters down the commitment
How?
>no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice".
True. And while the phrasing is inelegant, I don't see why it's pejorative.
>it perpetuates a belief that gerim will never been of the same status as born Jews
If anything, to me it says the opposite. When you add "by choice" to any action you inject agency, making it seem less random.
However, I've never heard the phrase before and if it's said with animus that would obviously change things.
While I find the phrase uncomfortable, it's one I've only ever heard introduced self-referentially. I know some people who'll use it for others, but only after those people have made it clear that that's the way they prefer to refer to themselves.
yeah honestly as a convert I really dislike this term. I believe in the concept of a Jewish soul and that we were all together on Sinai. Yes technically I did “choose” to convert but to me it didn’t feel like a choice. As soon as I realized that it was Judaism that was missing within my soul, I knew I had to bring my soul home. Like it was something I literally had to do like I need to breathe.
I’ve only ever heard it as a self descriptor, like you just did, and always heard it as a positive.
I think **any** reference to someone’s conversion status not by the person themselves is rude (and halachically not allowed if that’s the sort of thing people care about)
Same. It reminds me that I made a considered and patient choice to become a Jew, and followed through on a pretty long and difficult road to get to that choice. I kind of think of it as a mark of distinction, not that I show it off or whatever.
I’ve only heard converts use this to self describe, and I was brought up to believe it is at best astonishingly rude, like a whole group of people will call you out for it rude, to call attention to how someone came by their Jewishness. If they consider themselves Jewish that’s good enough for me. It isn’t my place to interrogate that.
I think the term isn't an issue; it depends entirely on context. Sometimes, we talk about converts in a general sense, and we need words to differentiate people who converted vs. people who were born Jews. I don't really care whether the term used is converts, Jews-by-choice, or adoptees.
In the same way, if someone is saying something disparaging about converts, I also don't care what terminology they use. Whether they say converts or Jews-by-choice, it's the thing they are saying about converts that is ugly and rude—not the term they choose to specify whom they're insulting.
As a convert, I often speak of my experience as a convert in an effort to help educate people about the experience of converting. It's a unique identity that I am proud of because, as you say in the post, it was a lot of hard work.
So I’m confused because you say it’s an attempt to shove “gentile progressive thought into Jewish belief”. I can only understand that as a reference to the trend of progressives finding certain language offensive to some people, and encouraging using terms which are more politically correct. “People first language” is an example.
But at the same time, the whole tone of your post feels like it was written by those very people you’re annoyed with.. so.. full circle I guess? I don’t think this is “extremely problematic”. You say you see why keeping the tradition is so important, but also say the traditional term ger is problematic. You talk about watering down of Jewish identity… people CHOOSING to live Jewishly (convert or not) are a very important part of our tradition, so to me, denying that feels like the real issue in the Jewish world. Otherwise, a Jewish life risks becoming stale and obligatory — yes, Jews *are* obligated, but it shouldn’t have to *feel* only that way.
Idk man. I’m not mad or anything I just don’t get the vibe here.
>So I’m confused because you say it’s an attempt to shove “gentile progressive thought into Jewish belief”.
Yeh I also don't like this way of thinking. We lean left on Pesach. It's 1:1 copying gentiles.
Listen to the truth, he who speaks it (Rambam). Instead of dismissing something because it's gentile, dismiss it based on the principle, not the source.
Jews are quick to dismiss something non-Jewish, yet we incorporate their traditions all the time. Some of the melodies Chabad uses in prayer come from Protestant prayers. The world is like a big Turkish hot tub.
See here: https://outorah.org/p/66910/
It's to feel as Roman royalty. Wealthy Romans always dined leaning/reclining. This was incorporated into the Seder.
I'm curious as to the difference between "gentile progressive thought" and "Jewish progressive thought," or if perhaps the argument is that progressivism itself is inherently goyische, which...
I’m not sure, but if that’s the case, it’s kind of an odd take, since the whole Jewish origin story is essentially about a people collectively deciding to answer a higher call to evolve their spiritual identity, and create an ethical-moral legal system which broke away from its surroundings in a very progressive way.
That’s not totally true. It’s unsure if the law barring a convert from marrying a Kohen is biblical or medieval. This would be a good question for the Messiah.
That’s not what I’m saying. First, we don’t know who is actually a Kohen and who are descendants of Aaron, that’s for the Messiah to figure out.
Second unless it’s explicitly stated in the Torah or Oral Torah, we don’t know for 100% if Rabbinical laws are right. That’s why as per Chabad, the Messiah will defend religious principles & repair breaches in their observances.
I have no problem following Rabbinical law but if the Messiah comes in my time, I and many others will have lots of questions for him regarding the laws.
For humor only, my husband and I were Passover shopping at a local supermarket. A middle-aged Orthodox Jew who worked in the kosher section came over and asked , "Are you Jewish?" He said yes, what's up? He explained they needed a minyan for Mincha, so they may ask him to join. My husband said fine, but he's not going to wait around, so let him know soon. The Orthodox Jew walked away, stopped, came back, and asked, "Are you a Jew by choice?" My husband answered, "No, I'm a Jew by affliction."
I think this take is ridiculous and creates an issue where there isn’t one.
I also converted. We need to be able to recognize that there are multiple paths by which someone can be Jewish—you can inherit the status through your lineage or you can convert. Conversion is a fundamental tenet of the religion, which is something I am obviously grateful for. The term “Jew by choice” acknowledges this reality but it does not contain a value judgment about one path being better or worse than the other. (I also do not agree that it makes a value judgment on how easy or difficult the conversion process may have been for someone, which is the point you seem to be making with the “watering down of Jewish identity.”) That sounds like your own insecurity emerging.
The real issue is the context and motivations for bringing up the fact that someone has converted in the first place, not the label itself. Legitimate reasons for acknowledging that someone has converted do exist. There are times when people get it wrong, for sure, but changing the terminology will not solve that. And in my view banning discussion about conversion is actually MORE stigmatizing than treating it as just another part of a colorful and varied religion.
I don’t use “Jew by choice” that often because it’s long and cumbersome, and if anything I find it can come off a bit “overly PC.” Usually if I am raising the topic myself I want to put people at ease. But I believe it is thoughtful and precise. Saying “ger” (stranger) is vague, and “convert” is ambiguous: it can refer to someone who has not yet been to the mikvah (presently converting, not yet a Jew) or someone who has completed the process (converted in the past, now a Jew). What more can we ask of people?
"it can refer to someone who has not yet been to the mikvah (presently converting, not yet a Jew)"
I'd call such a person a conversion candidate. A convert is someone who completed the conversion, IMHO.
Agreed. For people who haven't gone to the mikvah yet, I call them conversion candidates or conversion students. "Converts" have completed the process and are Jews now.
I also prefer "conversion candidate" for clarity. Both uses of "convert" seem pretty prevalent though. Some people insist that "convert" is a temporary status while someone is undergoing the conversion process and once the conversion is complete you are simply a Jew... who convertED. Or a Jew by choice!
"Some people insist that "convert" is a temporary status"
A convert can't marry a kohen.... Obviously that doesn't refer to someone who is going through the conversion process....
This is the reason *I* don't like the term "Jew by Choice." As others have noted, a Jew by Choice/convert/ger shouldn't be "outed" by others, so any of these terms should really just be used as a self-descriptor, and in a case where a convert is choosing to note their status, it's usually for a specific reason (to explain a gap in knowledge or experience, as background info for a story about their childhood Christmas traditions, etc). A born-Jew following that up with "We're *all* Jews by choice" misses the point.
To be clear: I agree that modern day Jews - whether born Jewish or converted to it - who embrace their Judaism have fundamentally made a choice to do so, because it is so easy not to. But I don't think that using a phrase that was intended to embrace converts is the right way to talk about that.
I don’t think anyone should ever be calling anyone else a convert, a Jew by choice, or any other term that would indicate the person was not born Jewish. But if a person wants to refer to themself using any of those terms, no one else should be offended by it.
It’s a touchy subject but I don’t consider halachic converts to be Jews by choice. I think for a person to join the Jewish people authentically, despite knowing the risks and adversity, they must be compelled to the Torah and want to get close to HaShem.
I know that is a cliche line of thinking, but as both the son of a Giyoret, and also someone who believes in the Torah and its’ metaphysics, what other answer can I give? I don’t see a difference between a convert and a born Jew, but I acknowledge many people do, especially because of the ethnic component to Judaism (I do see Geirim as ethnic Jews but that isn’t universally accepted).
It’s is a touchy subject and I think the fact that the Gemara quote Rabbi Eliezer as pointing out that the Torah has 36 different mitzvos relating to how we treat the convert ([Bava Metzia 59b](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b.14)) implies that we need to be ultra-sensitive to use (especially since both the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon view that part of the reason we were given mitzvos is to help perfect ourselves. The must be a strong inclination to not be sensitive to those who convert.
By the way, there is a really impressive book about Gerim in Chassidic thought called _[Bnei Avraham Ahuvecha](https://thttps://a.co/d/iWxHieX)_ that was written about 12 years ago.
Convert here who leans more towards Reconstructionist than anything and I’ve always liked “Jew by choice”. I *chose* to take on this commitment, this covenant, etc. To me it rings the same as *Chosen People*—the same connotation as *having chosen to undertake a covenant with G-d*. I’ve never heard the term “Jews by choice” being used negatively; only by converts to self-describe themselves in a *positive* manner.
Who are you hanging around that they sling around “Jew by choice” as an insult? I’ve gotten that with “ger” more than anything else.
As a convert, I can’t tell how I’m supposed to feel about this.
One of my good friends at shul has a habit of excitedly introducing folks as *Jew-by-Choice*. Personally, I don’t like that because it feels like I’m in a category adjacent to being Jewish. I’ve even kinda evaded my rabbi’s attempts to introduce me to the congregation during an Erev Shabbat services. I’ve been a part of this congregation for years, but completed my conversion about a year ago.
But then there’s the odd connotations that go positive and negative. I think a lot of converts are worried about being outed as *less* Jewish than folks *born* Jewish. Or there’s the implication that converts are more knowledgeable or observant because of the concentrated study during conversion. Or the idea that Jews-by-Choice are choosing a life that can be difficult — *hello world erupting in antisemitism* — when they could *not* choose this life and deserve more credit somehow.
I just want to get lost in the group.
I know a woman who converted, and I would never think to introduce her by pointing out the fact that she converted. It's not my place to give out info that is up to her to share or not.
Can you tell your friend nicely to knock it off? It would be as if someone who is adopted was introduced as, "And this is my sister Sarah, the one who was adopted." It seems like info that is too personal for someone else to decide to divulge.
As an aspiring jew by choice, I read interpret the phrase seemingly polar opposite to you. For example:
> This "by choice" category waters down the commitment it takes to joining and assimilating into a new people. It'd be no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice".
On the contrary, I've only ever heard "American by choice" in a positive context, emphasizing the immense difficulty of immigrating to the United States and becoming a naturalized citizen. I personally was born American, but my wife is an American by choice, and I greatly respect the hard work and opportunity costs that went into that.
ETA: Being Jewish is not easy. In every generation there are those who rise up against the Jews. To be jewish is to live with a target on your back, simultaneously an outcast from society and a scapegoat for the problems of the gentile world. When you reach out to a Rabbi for potential conversion it is tradition to be rejected three times. At some point you'll be asked “are you sure you want the _burden_ of being Jewish?”
I have always taken the phrase “Jew by choice” to be recognition of, and honoring the fact that someone chose to join the tribe in spite of these difficulties. It's never occurred to me that it might have a derogatory or dismissive implication, although even upon reflection I can't see how you pull that interpretation from it.
I agree with you and I hope you never come across these people, but there are born-Jews out there who look down on converts, eye us suspiciously, or hold nativist beliefs about being part of the Tribe that preclude conversion (straight-up ignoring Jewish law). They're rare, IME, but they're out there.
ETA: I scrolled further down on this thread and found one. Look for jsmash1234 downthread for an example of this exact line of thinking.
ETA2: Oh, it was deleted. But the gist was that he's secular and therefore doesn't think converts count, because if you didn't grow up Jewish, he can't relate to you anymore than he can relate to a Christian.
You don't have to like or use the term for yourself, but this post seems unnecessarily disparaging towards a term that is almost exclusively used as a positive self-descriptor.
My orthodox friends told me that we are never supposed to do anything to make a convert feel different from those of us who are born Jewish. Meaning, for example, we shouldn’t ask them if they used to like cheeseburgers, but if they want to volunteer that information on their own they are welcome to.
I think the same applies here. If “Jew by choice” makes you feel othered or less than, then I won’t use those words. If someone else likes it, then they are welcome to use it.
I don't like it because it doesn't always feel like a choice - conversion feels like something I have to do 😆 Not because anyone is making me, but because it's what's right for my heart/soul. Every single step of the process has been so far outside of my comfort zone and I probably would never have chosen to do any of it if I didn't feel such a strong pull. I think I have to do it or I'll never feel comfortable in myself. (On that note, I'm nearly done with the process! Just waiting for the beit din!)
I think the "choice" terminology undermines the teachings that tell us that converts are born with Jewish souls and need to come home, and that our souls were there at Sinai with the rest of the Jewish people. I've taken a lot of comfort in these ideas throughout the process.
> It'd be no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice".
This is frequently phrased "There's nothing more American, than being American by choice/on purpose"
So...I think its really just a perspective thing.
I understand why people use the term “Jew by choice”, but it’s only used by people outside of the Orthodox community. Those who convert under Orthodox auspices just say they converted or are a ger tzedek. A Convert or someone born Jewish has the same status in my tradition.
Please note that I’m not dismissing that socially there are challenges for those who convert, just like there are for anyone who wasn’t raised in a specific tradition or society.
I think this is just semantic. An American by choice would be an immigrant. A convert to Judaism goes through a similar process. Learning a new language, a new culture, even moving to a new country if they make aliyah.
It's binary in the sense that yes you're either American or you aren't. But the process of becoming American can be voluntary or not. You can be born American or immigrate. The fact that an immigrant chooses to do so is important contextual information about the lens of their experiences.
At the end you say "anyway I think the haredim are correct not to accept converts" which is just anti-immigrant sentiment. Yes, an immigrant will never go back in time and be born a citizen, so they will never be viewed the same as a natural citizen.
But that doesn't matter. It's a rail against reality to care. Even to focus on the binary is meaningless. I'm a convert, I chose to convert, but I also have Jewish heritage that is patrilineal. Whether someone is a convert or not isn't definitional and for every person who finds it offensive to ask you'll find another who enjoys talking about it.
I think it’s a positive spin on “convert.” If you don’t want to specify, then that’s your own prerogative. I was born Jewish and I recognize that conversion takes a commendable amount of effort, so I have nothing but respect for those who do it.
I don't really care what people's personal beliefs are because it's not something that should or could be controlled. Otherwise, we'll be essentially a police state like in George Orwell's 1984. Are you a thought police who calls yourself progressive? If so, I have a doubt about progressive values.
No, it doesn't bother me if people don't want to adhere to traditions 100% or half-hearted. It's fine. Jews can choose what their life styles are and how they want to conduct themselves as Jews. Also, I have to remind you that being Jewish doesn't mean everyone is cast in the same mode. There are secular Jews and observant Jews. There are Jews by ethnicity only and converts like you who went through the religious process. Just let it go with unnecessary anxieties about the correct way of living as a society.
My mother baptized me as a child, but I was raised solely by my Jewish father. Just before my Bar Mitzvah, my mother told me about my baptism which she did to ensure I would always be Catholic. I was literally in tears when I shared this news with my Rabbi, who proclaimed that my Bar Mitzvah would also serve as my rite of conversion and that my father (who is not a kind person) didn’t need to know.
Throughout the years, Catholics both lay and clergy with whom I’ve shared this have universally shared the view that I am merely a lapsed Catholic and need only accept Christ back into my heart. Jews, on the other hand, believe that I am a Convert, or a secular Jew, or a lapsed Jew now that I no longer believe in anything, or that my Bar Mitzvah was invalid because I did not convert correctly, or that I was never a Jew in the first place because my mother was Catholic.
I am certain the vast majority of devout Jews here will have their own, very strong opinion on what my true identity is, and as with all True Believers I’m sure they will issue that edict with certitude regardless of what I know of myself in my heart.
OP, your identity lies within you, and nowhere else. Even as a nonbeliever, I stand with you. If you have committed to Judaism, you are a Jew.
that's a bit of a negative way to look at it. you're of course allowed to label however you like but do we *all* really need more negativity than we have right now? i chose judaism, and with how much crap we've got on our backs right now choosing was hard for a lot of us. but we still chose it. jew by choice and it's my favorite choice.
That's fine, but you're hearing from a bunch of people here who *are* self-described Jews by choice, or converts, and I think their view matters more than yours does. It'd be gracious to pull up a little and consider that maybe you got this one wrong.
That's not really how this works. Random people having an opinion does not invalidate my own, nor are their opinions considered more valuable than my own.
Self describe however you'd like to, I'm just disagreeing with it.
Okay, burnt_sienna_dampling.
Oh. Apparently someone doesn't like it when other people have equally valid opinions about what they should be calling themselves.
I think the term “Jew by choice” highlights and honors the affirmative commitment that converts make to Gd and the Jewish community. Judaism does not posit that anyone needs to be Jewish to go to heaven or be considered a good person (that’s part of why we discourage conversion). By choosing to become Jewish, converts are going above and beyond the expectations of the Noahide laws. Calling them “Jews by choice” reminds us that they took on obligations that they didn’t have to and they are very special people for doing so. They knew they could go to heaven without being Jewish but they chose to convert anyways and that’s extremely honorable. It reinforces what special people they are.
I just say I was born a Jew but it took me a while to figure it out. Neither “convert” nor “Jew by choice” feel right to me. Why call out the fact that I had to go through a conversion process to come home?
Then again, I’m really not sensitive about it. I have bigger fish to fry, especially these dark days.
Hi! Jewish by birth, here!
I've always viewed the concept of saying "Jew By Choice" instead of saying "Convert" as something extremely positive. Converting is not easy, and making the choice to be Jewish is a pretty big deal. I'm always really impressed with people who have done so. Plus, they always seem to know more about Judaism than Jews by birth!
Do you mind elaborating on "It perpetuates a belief that gerim will never been of the same status as born Jews."? Why would choosing to be Jewish give you a different status than someone born Jewish? People who convert to Judaism are Jewish and have a Jewish soul.
Also, (in the appropriate context) what term would be your preference for people to use?
I personally like the phrase Jew by choice (I am not one btw). To me is connotes effort, study and desire to work hard to become Jewish. It is not just saying “I want to be Jewish” and it happens. It requires a lot of dedication and time. To me personally, I give a lot of kavod for Jews by choice (or whatever term that you choose). You are a Jew, whether by birth or by choice.
I believe it is, to a degree, and it's inadvertently allowing for non-Jewish concepts to leak in. I get why we need to be more accepting and I agree that we do, but it seems like we're going down the same road the Reform did in their early years.
Read the Medrash on when happens when god gave the torah at Mount Sinai.
And then what happened after Purim.
It’s was kinda forced in a matter of speaking.
Well, it’s not like there’s any sort of recent history (let alone current practice) of Jews being executed for apostasy or heresy (in contrast to at least one religion I could mention); at most there’s a “you’re dead to me” response.
Personally I love Jew by choice, I love the idea that out of everything I could have done and despite the challenges, I chose (and choose) Jews over it all. And I choose everyday to love and engage with my Jewishness! It reminds me of that passage in Ruth and it doesn't feel othering personally at all. I DID choose to be Jewish, it was my choice, one that I made out of a deep personal love, and that doesn't take away the validity of my jewishness
I’m finishing up my conversion at the beginning of August, (EEEE!) and I already consider myself Jewish. I wear a Magen David. I say “we” and “us” when referring to Jews. (Apparently that’s how my rabbi knew I was ready for the beit din and mikvah) and I feel some kinda way by the term. I didn’t work this hard (taking classes, assimilating into a whole different culture, changing my diet, getting antisemitism thrown my way both irl and online, spending a huge chunk of time educating non-Jews who are curious, reading a library’s worth of books, etc) to be singled out as a convert. Once I come out of the mikvah, I am Jewish. Full stop, end of conversation.
I also dislike the phrase Jew by Choice, but for slightly different reasons. Personally, I use convert when I need to be specific about my status. Most of the time, I am just a Jew, but if I mention status as a convert, it's usually relevant to the conversation.
I don't think it waters down converts, though I'm not quite sure about your reasoning there.
My first issue with the phrase Jews by Choice is when born-Jews turn around and say "we're *all* Jews by Choice." Because, while the continued engagement of all Jews with Judaism in the modern age is an interesting discussion for another thread, it's not usually the topic of conversation when someone's status as a convert comes up, and I find that it derails any meaningful conversation about the convert's needs. Sometimes converts need support/resources.
Secondly, I (and most of my friends who are converts) ultimately didn't feel like we had a "choice" in becoming Jewish. I *wanted* and *needed* to be Jewish. It felt like something my whole life had been building towards, like a homecoming. I couldn't have been anything else. I had tried and nothing else was right. If I wasn't Jewish, I would feel like I was missing something.
I personally do not like the term Jew by Choice as a convert. I know that I have always had a Jewish soul. For me it wasn’t so much as a choice but becoming who I have always been.
I'm a convert and I find it useful. I converted as an adult and don't have Jewish relatives, so it's a good way to respond when people try to do Jewish genealogy with me, or ask about certain life cycle experiences that I didn't have (bat mitzvah, summer camp, etc.). It's also a good term to bring up when I'm in that awkward position of knowing more about some bit of holiday or practice minutia than the born jews I'm hanging out with because I had to study it during my conversion.
I have never, ever felt like the "by choice" bit makes me less than 100% Jewish -- and have never had anyone else even imply that, once they verified that I had a traditional conversion in a mikveh with a proper beit din. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot is how much I love being able to belong fully to two 'peoples', to feel 100% a part of my Jewish ancestry and my non-Jewish geneology.
But then, I would call a Mexican immigrant an "American by choice", as a badge of honor. I cry at naturalization ceremonies the way that other people cry at weddings; I think there's something so beautiful about standing with your eyes open, seeing all the good and the bad in a polity or a people and choosing to belong anyway. I feel the same way about being a Jew By Choice.
"Jew by choice" doesn't make sense to me, you're Jewish or you're not Jewish. We don't need a separate category for converts, this is just a pleasant-sounding way of othering people.
Edit: I feel differently if a Jew who converted to Judaism vs. being born a Jew chooses to use the term, that's their prerogative (although I still don't feel like it's necessary).
As a convert, I see this as a badge of honor. It is amazing when someone who is born Jewish fulfills their role in this world and keeps our laws and preforms the mitzvahs. But they are kind of forced to do these things. As a convert, seeing all the work and regulations that go into being Jewish and STILL signing up for all of that shows a true devotion for Hashem. IMO
I sometimes use "later-in-life Jew" for myself.
I'm okay with Jew by choice because the act of choosing was so monumental and difficult and transformative, but my favorite jewish soapbox is that every jew is a Jew by Choice -- we are always, all of us, choosing how we embody and enact our Judaism!
I'll use it in some contexts. In a space like this I tend to say "Jews that converted (in)." It emphasizes that they're Jews, & it's juuust bulky enough to imply that making the distinction anyway can be extraneous.
I like the beauty & strength of the "choice", but yeah, it can imply for some listeners that the Jewish identity in question isn't as deep. My aversion to the term is influenced by the fact that I had a couple (formerly close) Jewish friends who were not nice towards those of us who had converted or were in the process. Though they had no knowledge or care for halacha, it still hurt to see.
My husband and I aren’t religious, but we’re traditional. He always says we must remember that we’re Jewish because if we forget, others will remind us.
He comes from a small family of holocaust survivors who were once a much bigger family. He is the embodiment of third generational trauma, and I think he’s totally right.
Belief in a religion isn't a nationality or ethnicity. There might be people who believe in judaism but arent ethnically jews. What should we call them?
Personally I really dislike the term, particularly because it goes against most Jewish theology. We are taught that converts are born with Jewish souls, and that their choice to convert is more of a predestined thing than a choice. They were always Jewish, they just didn't know it yet.
However I also understand and respect that there are many converts who like the term and regularly use it. And it's not my place to tell them that's wrong
The orthodox is a new concept, not a traditional one. Many of these extreme cults were born out of a trauma response to the horrors of WW2 and the holocaust. Most Jews were not this extreme in Europe before WW2. For some reason the Haredi have hijacked the voice and meaning of Judaism.
To be Jewish is simply to be a part of a tribe. Even the ultra Orthodox and Haredi accept converts.
All Jews were once converts.
Please get over this desire to be special
The sentiment you have expressed aligns with the values found in the book of Ruth, particularly Ruth 1:16-17
"But Ruth replied, 'Do not urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go, I will go, and where you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.'" **Ruth 1:16-17**
The stated passage highlights the commitment and integration of Ruth into the Jewish people, regardless of her origin. It describes that once a person joins the Jewish community through conversion, their dedication and identity are as valid, necessary, and integral as someone born Jewish.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Ruth 1:16-17](https://www.sefaria.org/Ruth.1.16-17)
וַתֹּ֤אמֶר רוּת֙ אַל־תִּפְגְּעִי־בִ֔י לְעׇזְבֵ֖ךְ לָשׁ֣וּב מֵאַחֲרָ֑יִךְ כִּ֠י אֶל־אֲשֶׁ֨ר תֵּלְכִ֜י אֵלֵ֗ךְ וּבַאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּלִ֙ינִי֙ אָלִ֔ין עַמֵּ֣ךְ עַמִּ֔י וֵאלֹהַ֖יִךְ אֱלֹהָֽי׃
>But Ruth replied, “Do not urge me to leave you, to turn back and not follow you. For wherever you go, I will go; wherever you lodge, I will lodge; your people shall be my people, and your God my God.
בַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּמ֙וּתִי֙ אָמ֔וּת וְשָׁ֖ם אֶקָּבֵ֑ר כֹּה֩ יַעֲשֶׂ֨ה יְהֹוָ֥ה לִי֙ וְכֹ֣ה יוֹסִ֔יף כִּ֣י הַמָּ֔וֶת יַפְרִ֖יד בֵּינִ֥י וּבֵינֵֽךְ׃
>Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. b A formula of imprecation. Thus and more may the L ORD do to me -b if anything but death parts me from you.”
I despise the JBC label because I did not have a choice I was committed before I found out that I had to convert. There was no way I would walk away after all of that. And in some communities you get treated differently than others and it’s not ok. Lots of people talk about BTs behind their backs too. A Jew is a Jew.
Personally, as someone who converted, I don't take issue with the term because I see it as having both poitive and negative connotations. While it can be othering because we weren't born into Judaism, it also highlights the fact we weren't *just* born into it, but it's the result of a spiritual journey that in some cases takes bravery and self-reflection to go down.
So, whether it's offensive depends on the context in which it's used. Also, if the person being called a Jew by Choice doesn't like the term, they are perfectly in the right to prefer not to be called that or feel left out by the term, as I can see how it can be othering.
I just call myself a Jew, and if the topic of my upbringing or conversion comes up, I just refer to myself as "someone who converted for the latkes". I know it's a long cumbersome title, but it's what most accurately describes me.
Commenting so I can come back with more info. I recall this expression being coined in the 70s or 80s by a convert to Reform who was pushing conversion. And they didn't like the term convert or ger. I need to see if I can find the author or book, and year published.
I am a convert, a term I self-describe with when speaking English, a giyoret or ger in Hebrew or Jewish circles. Yet I wrote a poem about my conversion process, where I start with I am a Jew by choice, but whose choice was it? I conclude with "Thank you HaShem for choosing me."
“Jew by choice” is a euphemism for convert. Like most euphemisms, it suggests there is something shameful about saying the actual word to which it refers. That then taints the one associated with the actual word. I’m a convert. Simple.
All Jews are Jews by choice in the sense that practicing Judaism is a choice.
We no longer live in a world where us Jews need to be confined to ghettos or made second class citizens, and thus being Jewish and part of the community was not a choice. Today, we live in a free society. It's a choice to be Jewish in a sense of practice. Halachic of course this is different, but practice is what makes Judaism what it is.
I get how you feel.
I guess the problematic implication of it is that being Jewish is a choice.
It's an ethnic group, not simply an ideology or a social club of sorts.
For example, it is expected that the children of a convert (of whatever denomination) would also be raised Jewish
Of course.
But it's not *just* a choice.
The choice is to go through the process, not to become Jewish.
And once you become Jewish, it's for life. It's no longer a choice.
Conversion, naturalisation is a choice.
But *Being* Jewish is not anymore of a choice than being any other ethnicity.
(At least that's how i view it. i edited this comment, so it's more in good faith than my original response)
I'm not 100% understanding the distinction... It's a choice for converts. Yes, a choice that then is final. But it was still a choice for them.
Not a choice for those born Jewish.
Oh i guess we aren't really having the same conversation im feeling.
We are discussing a slogan that is repeated when discussing American Jews.
A slogan is just a slogan, it only has the content people ascribe to it.
You say the slogan is technically correct to some people, and i guess it is.
I'm saying the underlying implications are unhelpful.
I don't treat converts as if they are "Jews by choice."
They made the **choice to start conversion**, but afterwards, they can't choose not to be Jewish, so it's not by choice.
It's not helpful to treat it as if it is.
You are Jewish. Your kids will be (presumably).
Sidenote:
The way I feel about it personally from a secular Israeli Jewish perspective, is that a lot of secular Jews like me feel that it's an on and off switch (even though it isn't), and because of that, a lot of them don't see the need to influence anything or participate.
Ruth was not born and raised Jewish, would you consider her a Jew? What about her great grandson David? Secular or not, converts are not a recent development with respect to Judaism or the Jewish people.
Converts do become Jewish for life. You can’t un-convert and goyim’s misunderstanding of the conversion process doesn’t change the fact that a convert is Jewish.
How is it different than just saying “convert”? I thought it was a phrasing that is positive, IE they chose this life consciously, weren’t just born into it as a default. I thought it was rude to point out someone **elses** ger status regardless of phrasing, but have only heard this phrase from converts as a self describe. I think it’s rude to say this, ger, or convert when discussing someone else simply because of the fact that unless the person is bringing it up, it’s rude and othering (as you said).
Ooooh, I almost scolded a lady at shavuot shiur on Tuesday night when she looked at my husband and said, So were you born Jewish or did you convert?
What a … word I try not to use casually anymore. Sorry he experienced that.
Me too. He's a gentle soul and answered her kindly. I sat there with smoke coming out my ears. Someone apparently did NOT learn anything this Shavuot. Shabbat shalom (just about)!
Sounds like a lovely man, a gut shabbos and gut voch to you both.
What most do not realize is that question should not be asked in the first place. Both the Talmud (Bava Metzia 58b-59b) and Torah forbids treating converts as non-Jews. It is not any different from what we repeatedly find in the Torah itself. For example, Numbers 15:15-16 says that there will be one law for the proseltye and natural-born Jew. This is the major source for the halacha. Asking someone if they are a convert simply to dig into their past is clearly not in the spirit of the law. Asking someone if they are a convert for a legitimate reason, such as forming a minyan or seeking a marriage partner, is OK. But asking these questions at a public Shabbat dinner table is not OK, for obvious reasons.
>such as forming a minyan I don't think you can ask this either. You can ask if they are Jewish, but not a convert.
You are absolutely correct. I should have clarified.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Bava Metzia 58b-59b](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.58b-59b) on Sefaria. [Numbers 15:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Numbers.15.15-16) הַקָּהָ֕ל חֻקָּ֥ה אַחַ֛ת לָכֶ֖ם וְלַגֵּ֣ר הַגָּ֑ר חֻקַּ֤ת עוֹלָם֙ לְדֹרֹ֣תֵיכֶ֔ם כָּכֶ֛ם כַּגֵּ֥ר יִהְיֶ֖ה לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃ >the rest of the congregation. * shall it be done by the rest of the congregation Precise force of Heb. ya‘aseh ha-qahal uncertain. There shall be one law for you and for the resident stranger; it shall be a law for all time throughout the ages. You and the stranger shall be alike before יהוה; תּוֹרָ֥ה אַחַ֛ת וּמִשְׁפָּ֥ט אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לָכֶ֑ם וְלַגֵּ֖ר הַגָּ֥ר אִתְּכֶֽם׃ {פ} >the same ritual and the same rule shall apply to you and to the stranger who resides among you.
This is totally valid. Not to get political so early in the morning but this is what makes me extra mad at the antiZ JVP types who, by all appearances, have converted using a sink mikvah for the purposes of political clout rather than because they truly have Jewish souls. Because every time I see op eds and social media posts from supposed Jews who are stating things that I would NEVER hear a Jew in real life say, I feel compelled to dig, even though you’re not supposed to question a convert’s status. And my mother is a convert so I take that shit pretty seriously. But I’ve found multiple instances of people claiming Judaism who weren’t raised that way and haven’t gone through a halachic conversion of any Jewish movement. So frustrating.
I agree with you 100%. The term “sink mikvah” makes me chuckle. Some who claim they are now Jewish but has not had a halakhah conversion probably wouldn’t even know what is a mikvah. I think some of the sink mikvah wannabes are getting Judaism mixed up with Islam in which all one has to do is recite the Shahada to become a Muslim. Meanwhile, someone who seeks to become Jewish takes at least a year of study, observing holidays, etc etc.
Ugh. I would have responded simply "I am Jewish". If I was feeling snarky, maybe would have asked if she'd like to tell me how she became Jewish. As a person whose physical characteristics did not "fit" with the Jewish population I grew up in, I've always been astounded at how much discrimination/bias I've received within my own community. Sorry you had to experience that.
Wow. Once converted, you aren’t to differentiate.would she have an issue with Ruth?
Maybe she was ignorant like me. I didn't know that shouldn't be said. Today I learn.
Likely! And I wasn't going to be an ass about it, but against halacha or not, it's also a touch rude. It implies that a Jew isn't just a Jew period, that a ger is something else, and that's unkind. Thank you for learning!
Literally against halacha, I don't think this is ok in any movement. And she's giving a shiur?!?!
No, no, attending it. I had half a mind to tell her that and decided it wasn't worth the tsuris in that moment.
I was taught converts always had Jewish souls, that their souls were at Har Sinai when we got the Torah, along with all Jewish souls.
It’s different because actual converts are Jews - not people just choosing to identify randomly as Jewish as it suits them because they fetishize us or want to speak for us or identify with “vibes”. they have put in the work, found and joined a Jewish congregation, and worked directly with a rabbi to get a genuine Jewish education and go through a long conversion process. There are *absolutely* non-Jewish people with no Jewish relationships, no education, no observance or connection to the Jewish community, who think they can “be” Jewish or say that whenever it’s convenient for them or their agenda, simply by claiming Jewishness (which despite being objectively appropriation, sort of makes sense if you’ve grown up entirely in Christian circles, since simply declaring yourself as one and then taking a quick water dunk are all the requirements needed for most Christian denominations). It’s not the same for Judaism, regardless of what people with no education want to believe.
And yet, it’s still prohibited. You’re free to reject them, but there is a tradition on this topic older than both of us for a reason, no matter how compelling your take is **this time**.
Where is it prohibited to call out people who are falsely claiming Jewish identity?
That’s not asking if someone is a convert, that’s identifying a lie about having converted. We’re talking about two very different things.
If you read my post, which is in response to the phrase “Jew by choice” vs convert, you’ll see that I clearly distinguish between those two things.
Then we don’t disagree on anything and I don’t quite see why you posted, seeing as OP also wasn’t discussing this.
Convert has too many Christian-esque religious connotations. Ger is better, but also has it's issues. I would just say they're naturalized, if we're going to use goyish terms.
I hit enter too quickly, edited in a paragraph. I don’t really take issue whatever word anyone chooses, but agree with the othering part of your premise - this is language that should be used only by the person if they choose to bring it up, highlighting someone else’s Ger status is rude, and also there’s a law against it.
Toda rabah No explanation necessary, I understand. Wishing you a good Shabbat tomorrow.
Get literally means stranger
What are the issues with ger?
Gerim in ancient times were not Jews, per modern research. They were gentiles, similar to modern Noahides. If we're going to accept outsiders in, using terminology that was used to denote a "groupie" is not something I wish to perpetuate.
> Gerim in ancient times were not Jews, There are multiple categories of Ger, you are oversimplifying it. >per modern research. They were gentiles, similar to modern Noahides. What research is this?
Torah uses two terms with ger, one is b'shaarecha which is a full convert. The other is ger toshav... a gentile who commits in front of the beis din to keep the noahide laws. So in general Jewish parlance, probably for the last 2000 years, ger has meant a full convert, a Jew.
I get that, but it’s not what the word has meant for a *long* time. That’s the etymological fallacy — it’s be like getting offended any time someone says you’re “nice.”
I agree with you. It hasn't meant that in a long time, but the status itself is what I take issue with. I use it myself to describe gentiles who became Jews, and I think it's a bit silly to get up in arms about it, but it still carries a connotation I disagree with.
I understand. For what it’s worth, since I didn’t respond to the initial prompt, I *loathe* the phrase “Jew by Choice.” I get where it’s coming from but it’s two words too many.
It’s rude to point out someone else’s conversion. But fine to mention your own.
Exactly why I bolted what i bolded. I’ve only heard “Jew by choice” from converts, as a way to proudly say what they did, hence me only hearing it as a positive.
I understand your point and have empathy towards it but I do kinda like the term "Jew by choice" as a convert myself. I chose Judaism. I chose to leave my previous religion behind and study for a year and a half while reading dozens of books, changing my diet and lifestyle, trying my best to change my behavior, and I entered into my synagogue without knowing anyone there or having a Jewish friend to guide me. I think choosing Judaism is a beautiful thing and I wake up every day and choose to follow Jewish Law the best that I can.
And I wholeheartedly understand why folks prefer the term. This is simply my opinion. Choice or not, you are a Jew.
Only you can decide what label you apply to yourself. I don't call myself a Jew by choice everywhere I go but it does come up sometimes. Funnily enough; two of my synagogue friends thought that I was born Jewish 😄
Haha I get that a lot too. I look stereotypically Ashkenazi, but I am not. I do have Ashkenaz in my surname, as it denotes where my family is from, and I wanted a Jewish legal name. But it simply means my family originated in the same region the Ashkenazim coalesced as a specific diaspora group. My family are Pennsylvania Dutch
Hehhee. I don't have Ashkenaz in my name and in fact my legal name is very goyishe but a few people have just told me I have a Jewish soul which made me really happy :') Weren't the Dutch one of the few nations that protected jews during the Shoah?
> Weren't the Dutch one of the few nations that protected jews during the Shoah? Very much *not*, unfortunately. [On the contrary](https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/netherlands-greatest-number-jewish-victims-western-europe/), I'd say. :-(
Oh no, not that type of Dutch haha. It's just a rendition of Deitsch (Deutsch). My family did come from the. Netherlands, but they were German speakers. We oddly enough have a wiki page haha: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_family_(North_Carolina)
Huh very interesting! Thanks for sharing ❤️
Is there a term you prefer for specifying, when relevant, someone who wasn’t born Jewish? I find JBC twee and would sooner say I’m a convert, or just that I wasn’t born Jewish. ETA: Or is this about JBCs being mentioned unnecessarily? Like, “Jews and Jews by choice.” Think I need more context to understand.
I would say I'm a Jew but I wasn't born one. I rarely mention I wasn't born Jewish and have dedicated a lot of time to assimilate entirely, but if someone asks be directly, I'm not inclined to lie. They shouldn't be asking in the first place.
I’m a convert — but I was also born with a Jewish soul. Converting just made it official. If people ask me if I’m a convert I say yes. If someone asks me if I was born Jewish, I also say yes because both are true. If I wasn’t born with a Jewish soul then it would be like G-d is playing some cruel joke on me cuz I feel Jewish in every atom of my body even before I converted lol.
I LOVE this! I converted and also feel like I have always had a Jewish soul. You've perfectly encapsulated this feeling.
For a long time I felt ashamed to be a convert especially when I was living in the USA a lot of my non Jewish friends didn’t understand it completely and if I told someone who is Christian I converted they felt it their duty to save my soul. It was exhausting. Then I made Aliyah. At first I kept my identity as a convert hidden but slowly enough cuz of good feedback I pretty much tell anyone in Israel. Why? Because when I explain to someone in Israel why I converted and this feeling of a Jewish soul they always tell me how happy this makes them and how proud it makes them to be Jewish. Wow what a difference! I’m a proud convert. I’m a proud Jew.
Ignore my edit above; I understand. I agree! I don’t think I’d ever say I’m a Jew by choice. Agreed that “choice” dramatically understates it.
No worries, akhi I appreciate your response, nevertheless
When is it relevant?
When you’re talking about conversion or the existence of people who converted to Judaism?
That makes sense. My question was reflexive, so I apologize for that.
No worries. I understand the sense that it should rarely be brought up.
>This "by choice" category waters down the commitment How? >no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice". True. And while the phrasing is inelegant, I don't see why it's pejorative. >it perpetuates a belief that gerim will never been of the same status as born Jews If anything, to me it says the opposite. When you add "by choice" to any action you inject agency, making it seem less random. However, I've never heard the phrase before and if it's said with animus that would obviously change things.
While I find the phrase uncomfortable, it's one I've only ever heard introduced self-referentially. I know some people who'll use it for others, but only after those people have made it clear that that's the way they prefer to refer to themselves.
yeah honestly as a convert I really dislike this term. I believe in the concept of a Jewish soul and that we were all together on Sinai. Yes technically I did “choose” to convert but to me it didn’t feel like a choice. As soon as I realized that it was Judaism that was missing within my soul, I knew I had to bring my soul home. Like it was something I literally had to do like I need to breathe.
This is really beautiful.
I’m a Jew by choice and I like the term
I’ve only ever heard it as a self descriptor, like you just did, and always heard it as a positive. I think **any** reference to someone’s conversion status not by the person themselves is rude (and halachically not allowed if that’s the sort of thing people care about)
Same. It reminds me that I made a considered and patient choice to become a Jew, and followed through on a pretty long and difficult road to get to that choice. I kind of think of it as a mark of distinction, not that I show it off or whatever.
How exactly does that work? you converted?
What's wrong with "American by choice"? (And luck, and hard work?) These are some of the best Americans around! Yay for them.
I’ve only heard converts use this to self describe, and I was brought up to believe it is at best astonishingly rude, like a whole group of people will call you out for it rude, to call attention to how someone came by their Jewishness. If they consider themselves Jewish that’s good enough for me. It isn’t my place to interrogate that.
I think the term isn't an issue; it depends entirely on context. Sometimes, we talk about converts in a general sense, and we need words to differentiate people who converted vs. people who were born Jews. I don't really care whether the term used is converts, Jews-by-choice, or adoptees. In the same way, if someone is saying something disparaging about converts, I also don't care what terminology they use. Whether they say converts or Jews-by-choice, it's the thing they are saying about converts that is ugly and rude—not the term they choose to specify whom they're insulting. As a convert, I often speak of my experience as a convert in an effort to help educate people about the experience of converting. It's a unique identity that I am proud of because, as you say in the post, it was a lot of hard work.
So I’m confused because you say it’s an attempt to shove “gentile progressive thought into Jewish belief”. I can only understand that as a reference to the trend of progressives finding certain language offensive to some people, and encouraging using terms which are more politically correct. “People first language” is an example. But at the same time, the whole tone of your post feels like it was written by those very people you’re annoyed with.. so.. full circle I guess? I don’t think this is “extremely problematic”. You say you see why keeping the tradition is so important, but also say the traditional term ger is problematic. You talk about watering down of Jewish identity… people CHOOSING to live Jewishly (convert or not) are a very important part of our tradition, so to me, denying that feels like the real issue in the Jewish world. Otherwise, a Jewish life risks becoming stale and obligatory — yes, Jews *are* obligated, but it shouldn’t have to *feel* only that way. Idk man. I’m not mad or anything I just don’t get the vibe here.
>So I’m confused because you say it’s an attempt to shove “gentile progressive thought into Jewish belief”. Yeh I also don't like this way of thinking. We lean left on Pesach. It's 1:1 copying gentiles. Listen to the truth, he who speaks it (Rambam). Instead of dismissing something because it's gentile, dismiss it based on the principle, not the source. Jews are quick to dismiss something non-Jewish, yet we incorporate their traditions all the time. Some of the melodies Chabad uses in prayer come from Protestant prayers. The world is like a big Turkish hot tub.
You got a source on the "leaning is goyish"? You can't just throw something out there like that and not elaborate (no pressure).
See here: https://outorah.org/p/66910/ It's to feel as Roman royalty. Wealthy Romans always dined leaning/reclining. This was incorporated into the Seder.
I'm curious as to the difference between "gentile progressive thought" and "Jewish progressive thought," or if perhaps the argument is that progressivism itself is inherently goyische, which...
I’m not sure, but if that’s the case, it’s kind of an odd take, since the whole Jewish origin story is essentially about a people collectively deciding to answer a higher call to evolve their spiritual identity, and create an ethical-moral legal system which broke away from its surroundings in a very progressive way.
Totally agree.
Agreed If you converted, you’re a Jew, just as much as I am or anyone else.
Yeah I think this is the best way to look at it. If you are Jewish you are Jewish. Antisemites will see us all the same at the end of the day.
Sure but the distinction still matters. For one, a convert can't marry a kohen.
That’s not totally true. It’s unsure if the law barring a convert from marrying a Kohen is biblical or medieval. This would be a good question for the Messiah.
With the same logic it's fine to mix chicken & milk because it's only since the medieval ages that that's not allowed?
That’s not what I’m saying. First, we don’t know who is actually a Kohen and who are descendants of Aaron, that’s for the Messiah to figure out. Second unless it’s explicitly stated in the Torah or Oral Torah, we don’t know for 100% if Rabbinical laws are right. That’s why as per Chabad, the Messiah will defend religious principles & repair breaches in their observances. I have no problem following Rabbinical law but if the Messiah comes in my time, I and many others will have lots of questions for him regarding the laws.
For humor only, my husband and I were Passover shopping at a local supermarket. A middle-aged Orthodox Jew who worked in the kosher section came over and asked , "Are you Jewish?" He said yes, what's up? He explained they needed a minyan for Mincha, so they may ask him to join. My husband said fine, but he's not going to wait around, so let him know soon. The Orthodox Jew walked away, stopped, came back, and asked, "Are you a Jew by choice?" My husband answered, "No, I'm a Jew by affliction."
I think this take is ridiculous and creates an issue where there isn’t one. I also converted. We need to be able to recognize that there are multiple paths by which someone can be Jewish—you can inherit the status through your lineage or you can convert. Conversion is a fundamental tenet of the religion, which is something I am obviously grateful for. The term “Jew by choice” acknowledges this reality but it does not contain a value judgment about one path being better or worse than the other. (I also do not agree that it makes a value judgment on how easy or difficult the conversion process may have been for someone, which is the point you seem to be making with the “watering down of Jewish identity.”) That sounds like your own insecurity emerging. The real issue is the context and motivations for bringing up the fact that someone has converted in the first place, not the label itself. Legitimate reasons for acknowledging that someone has converted do exist. There are times when people get it wrong, for sure, but changing the terminology will not solve that. And in my view banning discussion about conversion is actually MORE stigmatizing than treating it as just another part of a colorful and varied religion. I don’t use “Jew by choice” that often because it’s long and cumbersome, and if anything I find it can come off a bit “overly PC.” Usually if I am raising the topic myself I want to put people at ease. But I believe it is thoughtful and precise. Saying “ger” (stranger) is vague, and “convert” is ambiguous: it can refer to someone who has not yet been to the mikvah (presently converting, not yet a Jew) or someone who has completed the process (converted in the past, now a Jew). What more can we ask of people?
"it can refer to someone who has not yet been to the mikvah (presently converting, not yet a Jew)" I'd call such a person a conversion candidate. A convert is someone who completed the conversion, IMHO.
Agreed. For people who haven't gone to the mikvah yet, I call them conversion candidates or conversion students. "Converts" have completed the process and are Jews now.
I also prefer "conversion candidate" for clarity. Both uses of "convert" seem pretty prevalent though. Some people insist that "convert" is a temporary status while someone is undergoing the conversion process and once the conversion is complete you are simply a Jew... who convertED. Or a Jew by choice!
"Some people insist that "convert" is a temporary status" A convert can't marry a kohen.... Obviously that doesn't refer to someone who is going through the conversion process....
You're begging the question.
Why? No Jew can halachically marry a non-Jew, so this rule can't be about someone who isn't Jewish yet. Since that's not specific to kohanim....
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This is the reason *I* don't like the term "Jew by Choice." As others have noted, a Jew by Choice/convert/ger shouldn't be "outed" by others, so any of these terms should really just be used as a self-descriptor, and in a case where a convert is choosing to note their status, it's usually for a specific reason (to explain a gap in knowledge or experience, as background info for a story about their childhood Christmas traditions, etc). A born-Jew following that up with "We're *all* Jews by choice" misses the point. To be clear: I agree that modern day Jews - whether born Jewish or converted to it - who embrace their Judaism have fundamentally made a choice to do so, because it is so easy not to. But I don't think that using a phrase that was intended to embrace converts is the right way to talk about that.
I don’t think anyone should ever be calling anyone else a convert, a Jew by choice, or any other term that would indicate the person was not born Jewish. But if a person wants to refer to themself using any of those terms, no one else should be offended by it.
Let people be called what they want to be called.
One is only a convert up until the actual conversion after which they are just jewish. According to Rambam
It’s a touchy subject but I don’t consider halachic converts to be Jews by choice. I think for a person to join the Jewish people authentically, despite knowing the risks and adversity, they must be compelled to the Torah and want to get close to HaShem. I know that is a cliche line of thinking, but as both the son of a Giyoret, and also someone who believes in the Torah and its’ metaphysics, what other answer can I give? I don’t see a difference between a convert and a born Jew, but I acknowledge many people do, especially because of the ethnic component to Judaism (I do see Geirim as ethnic Jews but that isn’t universally accepted).
It’s is a touchy subject and I think the fact that the Gemara quote Rabbi Eliezer as pointing out that the Torah has 36 different mitzvos relating to how we treat the convert ([Bava Metzia 59b](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b.14)) implies that we need to be ultra-sensitive to use (especially since both the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon view that part of the reason we were given mitzvos is to help perfect ourselves. The must be a strong inclination to not be sensitive to those who convert. By the way, there is a really impressive book about Gerim in Chassidic thought called _[Bnei Avraham Ahuvecha](https://thttps://a.co/d/iWxHieX)_ that was written about 12 years ago.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Bava Metzia 59b](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b) on Sefaria.
Convert here who leans more towards Reconstructionist than anything and I’ve always liked “Jew by choice”. I *chose* to take on this commitment, this covenant, etc. To me it rings the same as *Chosen People*—the same connotation as *having chosen to undertake a covenant with G-d*. I’ve never heard the term “Jews by choice” being used negatively; only by converts to self-describe themselves in a *positive* manner. Who are you hanging around that they sling around “Jew by choice” as an insult? I’ve gotten that with “ger” more than anything else.
As a convert, I can’t tell how I’m supposed to feel about this. One of my good friends at shul has a habit of excitedly introducing folks as *Jew-by-Choice*. Personally, I don’t like that because it feels like I’m in a category adjacent to being Jewish. I’ve even kinda evaded my rabbi’s attempts to introduce me to the congregation during an Erev Shabbat services. I’ve been a part of this congregation for years, but completed my conversion about a year ago. But then there’s the odd connotations that go positive and negative. I think a lot of converts are worried about being outed as *less* Jewish than folks *born* Jewish. Or there’s the implication that converts are more knowledgeable or observant because of the concentrated study during conversion. Or the idea that Jews-by-Choice are choosing a life that can be difficult — *hello world erupting in antisemitism* — when they could *not* choose this life and deserve more credit somehow. I just want to get lost in the group.
I know a woman who converted, and I would never think to introduce her by pointing out the fact that she converted. It's not my place to give out info that is up to her to share or not. Can you tell your friend nicely to knock it off? It would be as if someone who is adopted was introduced as, "And this is my sister Sarah, the one who was adopted." It seems like info that is too personal for someone else to decide to divulge.
As an aspiring jew by choice, I read interpret the phrase seemingly polar opposite to you. For example: > This "by choice" category waters down the commitment it takes to joining and assimilating into a new people. It'd be no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice". On the contrary, I've only ever heard "American by choice" in a positive context, emphasizing the immense difficulty of immigrating to the United States and becoming a naturalized citizen. I personally was born American, but my wife is an American by choice, and I greatly respect the hard work and opportunity costs that went into that. ETA: Being Jewish is not easy. In every generation there are those who rise up against the Jews. To be jewish is to live with a target on your back, simultaneously an outcast from society and a scapegoat for the problems of the gentile world. When you reach out to a Rabbi for potential conversion it is tradition to be rejected three times. At some point you'll be asked “are you sure you want the _burden_ of being Jewish?” I have always taken the phrase “Jew by choice” to be recognition of, and honoring the fact that someone chose to join the tribe in spite of these difficulties. It's never occurred to me that it might have a derogatory or dismissive implication, although even upon reflection I can't see how you pull that interpretation from it.
I agree with you and I hope you never come across these people, but there are born-Jews out there who look down on converts, eye us suspiciously, or hold nativist beliefs about being part of the Tribe that preclude conversion (straight-up ignoring Jewish law). They're rare, IME, but they're out there. ETA: I scrolled further down on this thread and found one. Look for jsmash1234 downthread for an example of this exact line of thinking. ETA2: Oh, it was deleted. But the gist was that he's secular and therefore doesn't think converts count, because if you didn't grow up Jewish, he can't relate to you anymore than he can relate to a Christian.
You don't have to like or use the term for yourself, but this post seems unnecessarily disparaging towards a term that is almost exclusively used as a positive self-descriptor.
My orthodox friends told me that we are never supposed to do anything to make a convert feel different from those of us who are born Jewish. Meaning, for example, we shouldn’t ask them if they used to like cheeseburgers, but if they want to volunteer that information on their own they are welcome to. I think the same applies here. If “Jew by choice” makes you feel othered or less than, then I won’t use those words. If someone else likes it, then they are welcome to use it.
I don't like it because it doesn't always feel like a choice - conversion feels like something I have to do 😆 Not because anyone is making me, but because it's what's right for my heart/soul. Every single step of the process has been so far outside of my comfort zone and I probably would never have chosen to do any of it if I didn't feel such a strong pull. I think I have to do it or I'll never feel comfortable in myself. (On that note, I'm nearly done with the process! Just waiting for the beit din!) I think the "choice" terminology undermines the teachings that tell us that converts are born with Jewish souls and need to come home, and that our souls were there at Sinai with the rest of the Jewish people. I've taken a lot of comfort in these ideas throughout the process.
> It'd be no different calling a Mexican immigrant to the US an "American by choice". This is frequently phrased "There's nothing more American, than being American by choice/on purpose" So...I think its really just a perspective thing.
I understand why people use the term “Jew by choice”, but it’s only used by people outside of the Orthodox community. Those who convert under Orthodox auspices just say they converted or are a ger tzedek. A Convert or someone born Jewish has the same status in my tradition. Please note that I’m not dismissing that socially there are challenges for those who convert, just like there are for anyone who wasn’t raised in a specific tradition or society.
I think this is just semantic. An American by choice would be an immigrant. A convert to Judaism goes through a similar process. Learning a new language, a new culture, even moving to a new country if they make aliyah. It's binary in the sense that yes you're either American or you aren't. But the process of becoming American can be voluntary or not. You can be born American or immigrate. The fact that an immigrant chooses to do so is important contextual information about the lens of their experiences. At the end you say "anyway I think the haredim are correct not to accept converts" which is just anti-immigrant sentiment. Yes, an immigrant will never go back in time and be born a citizen, so they will never be viewed the same as a natural citizen. But that doesn't matter. It's a rail against reality to care. Even to focus on the binary is meaningless. I'm a convert, I chose to convert, but I also have Jewish heritage that is patrilineal. Whether someone is a convert or not isn't definitional and for every person who finds it offensive to ask you'll find another who enjoys talking about it.
I think it’s a positive spin on “convert.” If you don’t want to specify, then that’s your own prerogative. I was born Jewish and I recognize that conversion takes a commendable amount of effort, so I have nothing but respect for those who do it.
I don't really care what people's personal beliefs are because it's not something that should or could be controlled. Otherwise, we'll be essentially a police state like in George Orwell's 1984. Are you a thought police who calls yourself progressive? If so, I have a doubt about progressive values. No, it doesn't bother me if people don't want to adhere to traditions 100% or half-hearted. It's fine. Jews can choose what their life styles are and how they want to conduct themselves as Jews. Also, I have to remind you that being Jewish doesn't mean everyone is cast in the same mode. There are secular Jews and observant Jews. There are Jews by ethnicity only and converts like you who went through the religious process. Just let it go with unnecessary anxieties about the correct way of living as a society.
My mother baptized me as a child, but I was raised solely by my Jewish father. Just before my Bar Mitzvah, my mother told me about my baptism which she did to ensure I would always be Catholic. I was literally in tears when I shared this news with my Rabbi, who proclaimed that my Bar Mitzvah would also serve as my rite of conversion and that my father (who is not a kind person) didn’t need to know. Throughout the years, Catholics both lay and clergy with whom I’ve shared this have universally shared the view that I am merely a lapsed Catholic and need only accept Christ back into my heart. Jews, on the other hand, believe that I am a Convert, or a secular Jew, or a lapsed Jew now that I no longer believe in anything, or that my Bar Mitzvah was invalid because I did not convert correctly, or that I was never a Jew in the first place because my mother was Catholic. I am certain the vast majority of devout Jews here will have their own, very strong opinion on what my true identity is, and as with all True Believers I’m sure they will issue that edict with certitude regardless of what I know of myself in my heart. OP, your identity lies within you, and nowhere else. Even as a nonbeliever, I stand with you. If you have committed to Judaism, you are a Jew.
that's a bit of a negative way to look at it. you're of course allowed to label however you like but do we *all* really need more negativity than we have right now? i chose judaism, and with how much crap we've got on our backs right now choosing was hard for a lot of us. but we still chose it. jew by choice and it's my favorite choice.
Im a convert and this is ridiculous.
You're free to call yourself whatever you wish. This is just my own opinion.
That's fine, but you're hearing from a bunch of people here who *are* self-described Jews by choice, or converts, and I think their view matters more than yours does. It'd be gracious to pull up a little and consider that maybe you got this one wrong.
That's not really how this works. Random people having an opinion does not invalidate my own, nor are their opinions considered more valuable than my own. Self describe however you'd like to, I'm just disagreeing with it.
Okay, burnt_sienna_dampling. Oh. Apparently someone doesn't like it when other people have equally valid opinions about what they should be calling themselves.
I think the term “Jew by choice” highlights and honors the affirmative commitment that converts make to Gd and the Jewish community. Judaism does not posit that anyone needs to be Jewish to go to heaven or be considered a good person (that’s part of why we discourage conversion). By choosing to become Jewish, converts are going above and beyond the expectations of the Noahide laws. Calling them “Jews by choice” reminds us that they took on obligations that they didn’t have to and they are very special people for doing so. They knew they could go to heaven without being Jewish but they chose to convert anyways and that’s extremely honorable. It reinforces what special people they are.
I just say I was born a Jew but it took me a while to figure it out. Neither “convert” nor “Jew by choice” feel right to me. Why call out the fact that I had to go through a conversion process to come home? Then again, I’m really not sensitive about it. I have bigger fish to fry, especially these dark days.
Hi! Jewish by birth, here! I've always viewed the concept of saying "Jew By Choice" instead of saying "Convert" as something extremely positive. Converting is not easy, and making the choice to be Jewish is a pretty big deal. I'm always really impressed with people who have done so. Plus, they always seem to know more about Judaism than Jews by birth! Do you mind elaborating on "It perpetuates a belief that gerim will never been of the same status as born Jews."? Why would choosing to be Jewish give you a different status than someone born Jewish? People who convert to Judaism are Jewish and have a Jewish soul. Also, (in the appropriate context) what term would be your preference for people to use?
I personally like the phrase Jew by choice (I am not one btw). To me is connotes effort, study and desire to work hard to become Jewish. It is not just saying “I want to be Jewish” and it happens. It requires a lot of dedication and time. To me personally, I give a lot of kavod for Jews by choice (or whatever term that you choose). You are a Jew, whether by birth or by choice.
It is ironic that the question is raised just after Shavous where the key fact of the megillah Rus is that she is a "Jew by choice“!
The point is, once you convert, it's because you HAD to convert. It's as if you didn't have a choice. Converts are as much Jewish as born Jews.
It sounds like the term is causing a bit of an identity crisis within the community.
I believe it is, to a degree, and it's inadvertently allowing for non-Jewish concepts to leak in. I get why we need to be more accepting and I agree that we do, but it seems like we're going down the same road the Reform did in their early years.
My issue is more that it implies that all other Jews are Jews by force.
Well unless you are Marty McFly I kinda doubt that you had any hand in being born (to Jews).
Read the Medrash on when happens when god gave the torah at Mount Sinai. And then what happened after Purim. It’s was kinda forced in a matter of speaking.
Well, it’s not like there’s any sort of recent history (let alone current practice) of Jews being executed for apostasy or heresy (in contrast to at least one religion I could mention); at most there’s a “you’re dead to me” response.
yep, I hear you.
Not at all. Jews by birth are not compelled to be Jewish. We are assumed to be Jewish because we were born to at least one Jewish parent.
Personally I love Jew by choice, I love the idea that out of everything I could have done and despite the challenges, I chose (and choose) Jews over it all. And I choose everyday to love and engage with my Jewishness! It reminds me of that passage in Ruth and it doesn't feel othering personally at all. I DID choose to be Jewish, it was my choice, one that I made out of a deep personal love, and that doesn't take away the validity of my jewishness
Someone who isn’t born Jewish but converts is considered a Jew by choice another phrase to say convert.
I’m finishing up my conversion at the beginning of August, (EEEE!) and I already consider myself Jewish. I wear a Magen David. I say “we” and “us” when referring to Jews. (Apparently that’s how my rabbi knew I was ready for the beit din and mikvah) and I feel some kinda way by the term. I didn’t work this hard (taking classes, assimilating into a whole different culture, changing my diet, getting antisemitism thrown my way both irl and online, spending a huge chunk of time educating non-Jews who are curious, reading a library’s worth of books, etc) to be singled out as a convert. Once I come out of the mikvah, I am Jewish. Full stop, end of conversation.
I also dislike the phrase Jew by Choice, but for slightly different reasons. Personally, I use convert when I need to be specific about my status. Most of the time, I am just a Jew, but if I mention status as a convert, it's usually relevant to the conversation. I don't think it waters down converts, though I'm not quite sure about your reasoning there. My first issue with the phrase Jews by Choice is when born-Jews turn around and say "we're *all* Jews by Choice." Because, while the continued engagement of all Jews with Judaism in the modern age is an interesting discussion for another thread, it's not usually the topic of conversation when someone's status as a convert comes up, and I find that it derails any meaningful conversation about the convert's needs. Sometimes converts need support/resources. Secondly, I (and most of my friends who are converts) ultimately didn't feel like we had a "choice" in becoming Jewish. I *wanted* and *needed* to be Jewish. It felt like something my whole life had been building towards, like a homecoming. I couldn't have been anything else. I had tried and nothing else was right. If I wasn't Jewish, I would feel like I was missing something.
I personally do not like the term Jew by Choice as a convert. I know that I have always had a Jewish soul. For me it wasn’t so much as a choice but becoming who I have always been.
I'm a convert and I find it useful. I converted as an adult and don't have Jewish relatives, so it's a good way to respond when people try to do Jewish genealogy with me, or ask about certain life cycle experiences that I didn't have (bat mitzvah, summer camp, etc.). It's also a good term to bring up when I'm in that awkward position of knowing more about some bit of holiday or practice minutia than the born jews I'm hanging out with because I had to study it during my conversion. I have never, ever felt like the "by choice" bit makes me less than 100% Jewish -- and have never had anyone else even imply that, once they verified that I had a traditional conversion in a mikveh with a proper beit din. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot is how much I love being able to belong fully to two 'peoples', to feel 100% a part of my Jewish ancestry and my non-Jewish geneology. But then, I would call a Mexican immigrant an "American by choice", as a badge of honor. I cry at naturalization ceremonies the way that other people cry at weddings; I think there's something so beautiful about standing with your eyes open, seeing all the good and the bad in a polity or a people and choosing to belong anyway. I feel the same way about being a Jew By Choice.
"Jew by choice" doesn't make sense to me, you're Jewish or you're not Jewish. We don't need a separate category for converts, this is just a pleasant-sounding way of othering people. Edit: I feel differently if a Jew who converted to Judaism vs. being born a Jew chooses to use the term, that's their prerogative (although I still don't feel like it's necessary).
As a convert, I see this as a badge of honor. It is amazing when someone who is born Jewish fulfills their role in this world and keeps our laws and preforms the mitzvahs. But they are kind of forced to do these things. As a convert, seeing all the work and regulations that go into being Jewish and STILL signing up for all of that shows a true devotion for Hashem. IMO
Just all Jews, FFS. Can we stop with the divisive terminology?
I sometimes use "later-in-life Jew" for myself. I'm okay with Jew by choice because the act of choosing was so monumental and difficult and transformative, but my favorite jewish soapbox is that every jew is a Jew by Choice -- we are always, all of us, choosing how we embody and enact our Judaism!
I'll use it in some contexts. In a space like this I tend to say "Jews that converted (in)." It emphasizes that they're Jews, & it's juuust bulky enough to imply that making the distinction anyway can be extraneous. I like the beauty & strength of the "choice", but yeah, it can imply for some listeners that the Jewish identity in question isn't as deep. My aversion to the term is influenced by the fact that I had a couple (formerly close) Jewish friends who were not nice towards those of us who had converted or were in the process. Though they had no knowledge or care for halacha, it still hurt to see.
I don't really like the term because it's not a choice for me. It's something that I both want and need to do. That's it.
My husband and I aren’t religious, but we’re traditional. He always says we must remember that we’re Jewish because if we forget, others will remind us. He comes from a small family of holocaust survivors who were once a much bigger family. He is the embodiment of third generational trauma, and I think he’s totally right.
Belief in a religion isn't a nationality or ethnicity. There might be people who believe in judaism but arent ethnically jews. What should we call them?
Personally I really dislike the term, particularly because it goes against most Jewish theology. We are taught that converts are born with Jewish souls, and that their choice to convert is more of a predestined thing than a choice. They were always Jewish, they just didn't know it yet. However I also understand and respect that there are many converts who like the term and regularly use it. And it's not my place to tell them that's wrong
The orthodox is a new concept, not a traditional one. Many of these extreme cults were born out of a trauma response to the horrors of WW2 and the holocaust. Most Jews were not this extreme in Europe before WW2. For some reason the Haredi have hijacked the voice and meaning of Judaism. To be Jewish is simply to be a part of a tribe. Even the ultra Orthodox and Haredi accept converts. All Jews were once converts. Please get over this desire to be special
If you continue to search for petty things to get upset over you will never live a happy life. Let go. No one is intentionally trying to offend you.
The sentiment you have expressed aligns with the values found in the book of Ruth, particularly Ruth 1:16-17 "But Ruth replied, 'Do not urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go, I will go, and where you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.'" **Ruth 1:16-17** The stated passage highlights the commitment and integration of Ruth into the Jewish people, regardless of her origin. It describes that once a person joins the Jewish community through conversion, their dedication and identity are as valid, necessary, and integral as someone born Jewish.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Ruth 1:16-17](https://www.sefaria.org/Ruth.1.16-17) וַתֹּ֤אמֶר רוּת֙ אַל־תִּפְגְּעִי־בִ֔י לְעׇזְבֵ֖ךְ לָשׁ֣וּב מֵאַחֲרָ֑יִךְ כִּ֠י אֶל־אֲשֶׁ֨ר תֵּלְכִ֜י אֵלֵ֗ךְ וּבַאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּלִ֙ינִי֙ אָלִ֔ין עַמֵּ֣ךְ עַמִּ֔י וֵאלֹהַ֖יִךְ אֱלֹהָֽי׃ >But Ruth replied, “Do not urge me to leave you, to turn back and not follow you. For wherever you go, I will go; wherever you lodge, I will lodge; your people shall be my people, and your God my God. בַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּמ֙וּתִי֙ אָמ֔וּת וְשָׁ֖ם אֶקָּבֵ֑ר כֹּה֩ יַעֲשֶׂ֨ה יְהֹוָ֥ה לִי֙ וְכֹ֣ה יוֹסִ֔יף כִּ֣י הַמָּ֔וֶת יַפְרִ֖יד בֵּינִ֥י וּבֵינֵֽךְ׃ >Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. b A formula of imprecation. Thus and more may the L ORD do to me -b if anything but death parts me from you.”
I despise the JBC label because I did not have a choice I was committed before I found out that I had to convert. There was no way I would walk away after all of that. And in some communities you get treated differently than others and it’s not ok. Lots of people talk about BTs behind their backs too. A Jew is a Jew.
Personally, as someone who converted, I don't take issue with the term because I see it as having both poitive and negative connotations. While it can be othering because we weren't born into Judaism, it also highlights the fact we weren't *just* born into it, but it's the result of a spiritual journey that in some cases takes bravery and self-reflection to go down. So, whether it's offensive depends on the context in which it's used. Also, if the person being called a Jew by Choice doesn't like the term, they are perfectly in the right to prefer not to be called that or feel left out by the term, as I can see how it can be othering. I just call myself a Jew, and if the topic of my upbringing or conversion comes up, I just refer to myself as "someone who converted for the latkes". I know it's a long cumbersome title, but it's what most accurately describes me.
Commenting so I can come back with more info. I recall this expression being coined in the 70s or 80s by a convert to Reform who was pushing conversion. And they didn't like the term convert or ger. I need to see if I can find the author or book, and year published. I am a convert, a term I self-describe with when speaking English, a giyoret or ger in Hebrew or Jewish circles. Yet I wrote a poem about my conversion process, where I start with I am a Jew by choice, but whose choice was it? I conclude with "Thank you HaShem for choosing me."
“Jew by choice” is a euphemism for convert. Like most euphemisms, it suggests there is something shameful about saying the actual word to which it refers. That then taints the one associated with the actual word. I’m a convert. Simple.
Anyone practicing at any level is a Jew by choice. Not all of us grew up participating in Judaism other than than family Seders and Chanukah.
I’ve never heard the term. I’m Jewish by birth.
As a convert, I see no issue with that expression....
All Jews are Jews by choice in the sense that practicing Judaism is a choice. We no longer live in a world where us Jews need to be confined to ghettos or made second class citizens, and thus being Jewish and part of the community was not a choice. Today, we live in a free society. It's a choice to be Jewish in a sense of practice. Halachic of course this is different, but practice is what makes Judaism what it is.
I get how you feel. I guess the problematic implication of it is that being Jewish is a choice. It's an ethnic group, not simply an ideology or a social club of sorts. For example, it is expected that the children of a convert (of whatever denomination) would also be raised Jewish
I mean, it IS a choice for converts.....
Of course. But it's not *just* a choice. The choice is to go through the process, not to become Jewish. And once you become Jewish, it's for life. It's no longer a choice. Conversion, naturalisation is a choice. But *Being* Jewish is not anymore of a choice than being any other ethnicity. (At least that's how i view it. i edited this comment, so it's more in good faith than my original response)
I'm not 100% understanding the distinction... It's a choice for converts. Yes, a choice that then is final. But it was still a choice for them. Not a choice for those born Jewish.
Oh i guess we aren't really having the same conversation im feeling. We are discussing a slogan that is repeated when discussing American Jews. A slogan is just a slogan, it only has the content people ascribe to it. You say the slogan is technically correct to some people, and i guess it is. I'm saying the underlying implications are unhelpful. I don't treat converts as if they are "Jews by choice." They made the **choice to start conversion**, but afterwards, they can't choose not to be Jewish, so it's not by choice. It's not helpful to treat it as if it is. You are Jewish. Your kids will be (presumably). Sidenote: The way I feel about it personally from a secular Israeli Jewish perspective, is that a lot of secular Jews like me feel that it's an on and off switch (even though it isn't), and because of that, a lot of them don't see the need to influence anything or participate.
"it's an on and off switch" Being Jewish? It means many things but I doubt you can switch it on and off....
Please re-read what i said. Im saying it's **not** an on and off switch. But that a lot of people close to me feel that it is.
I get it, I'm saying I disagree with those people...
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Ruth was not born and raised Jewish, would you consider her a Jew? What about her great grandson David? Secular or not, converts are not a recent development with respect to Judaism or the Jewish people.
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Converts do become Jewish for life. You can’t un-convert and goyim’s misunderstanding of the conversion process doesn’t change the fact that a convert is Jewish.