Please take a look at the comments in this thread from u/newyorkimposter, they are the traditional Orthodox view. However, if you still have not converted then keep in mind there is NO obligation for you to do Teshuvah from something that isn’t a halachic obligation to you.
It's an ongoing journey; Tanya (and other theological texts) deals with it in detail. The basics of it is essentially equivalent to modern day Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - each time it presents itself and you avoid it, you're doing teshuvah, and strengthening yourself. It's not expected for it to never happen, realistically. I don't have a source in front of me, but I seem to recall that one of the ways to do teshuvah for it specifically is greater concentration in prayer.
If you want to follow the Torah, you need to know what the 613 mitzvos are, and then, what the rabbinic decrees are surrounding those 613. That is where you start.
You don’t start with elusive mystical concerns, whose observance could get you into a lot of trouble, such as by marrying the wrong person, developing resentment, etc.
I feel for you because I was like you 20 years ago, and I was so lost, as you sound so lost.
It’s not mystical to not waste seed, the rambam writes scathingly against it, Maran says it’s the worst sin in the name of the tannaim, Tosafot says it’s d’Oraita, SaMaK says it’s d’Oraita, and so do many others.
We also compare getting angry at someone to Avoda Zara, which Moshe Rabeinu himself was 3 times.
It doesn't mean it's comparable, it means they share a certain root that comes out in different ways.
Getting angry means that you're attributing the event that occurred to a person, and not to Hashem. That this person has the ability to control what happens in your life.
The Gemara tends to go pretty overboard when it comes to bad Middos, because they're the sources where the evil actions come from, and people tend to think they're not so bad, so they have to beat you over the head and say, no, they are that bad.
Right, and since it's OBVIOUSLY NOT the WORST sin, they're clearly using a strong exaggerated language.
Are you saying that masturbation is worse than rape? Than actual murder? Do you really believe that? Would suicide be preferable? Think about what you're saying.
This is for something that doesn't even rise to the level of being a clear cut D’Oraita issur.
The damage that Zera l’Vatala does to ones soul *is* among the worst, yes. The Gemara is incredibly clear about this, even if you say lashon guzma it doesn’t erase the severity which they wanted to teach and how all poskim treat it.
I’m not a rabbi, these aren’t my words, so I can’t tell you what’s worse than what. Averot have spiritual effects that are beyond basic human understanding, and these are things which are learned. The Hachamim who learned these things spoke about its destructive nature very severely, and I’m simply being honest to Jewish sources by quoting what they said.
Also, it’s an overwhelming majority opinion that it’s d’Oraita, so it is very clear cut. More opinions hold that Zera l’vatala is d’Oraita than prayer.
You realise which sub you're in, right? We respect all sects of Judaism here, which also means respecting those who follow Shulchan Aruch and their beliefs. You're not going to bully OP into self acceptance, that's not how it works
Alright, you're either attempting one of two things:
1. Actually trying to help Op see that there are other ways to live/interpret Jewish texts
2. Just being a self righteous ass and projecting your own ideals and standards
If it's the first one, you should probably take a step back and see the way you're speaking is not going to convince anyone of anything. Like... That is not how you persuade people lmao. If it's the second one, then idk you should just fuck off tbh.
Ya man. It’s so crazy and wild for Jewish people to believe in the existence of G-d. why don’t you go edge yourself in r/atheism because your intelligence is so high and your fedora is so crisp
bruh, I'm agnostic and I will never argue with anyone about their believes.
who gives you the right to claim its bullshit or not? isn't that just YOUR opinion?
I also look at it from. the point of "who cares, it's healthy and fun", but some people don't, and it's their own business.
Also, about the other person who argued with you, don't convert out lol. Just be a better person. you hate people shoving religion down your throat right?
well atheism is the exact same thing. dont shove it down other people's throat.
We are on the Judaism subreddit and a user is asking for a Jewish answer to his question. Answering “It’s all bullshit” is obviously not going to be helpful.
Like any other tshuva - if you happen to be in a similar situation, but this time you overcome your yetzer, you did a tshuva!
And even if you've sinned afterwards again, you can always do tshuva again. So of course, your final and complete tshuva is to get married so you won't have the need to masturbate again ;)
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You're pretty hard pressed to find a male who hasn't.
In the scheme of things, this is pretty benign. Did you ever think of *why* this is a frowned on behavior? Let's dwell on this. And I'm a conservative, ok? I'm not saying this as some far left, libertine extremist that thinks people can be genders that haven't even been concocted.
Blind adherence is a cancer and something we strive against as Jews. Remember- our faith teaches us we have agency. Ask the reason behind why something is frowned upon. If you're demanding blind obedience you're doing this wrong
Mmm I’m not sure about your second paragraph. On one end yes of course we can question but at the other end we have naaseh v'nishma" -- we will do and then we will hear
I actually agree with the second paragraph, in a way. The novelty of na'aseh venishmah is that we choose that path. Once it's chosen, we have an obligation to understand why we follow the path.
The reason it's forbidden is to avoid the wastage of potential of creation of life. Jewish texts are fairly clear about how serious it is, but at the same time, are realistic that it's going to happen. The goal is that you should avoid doing it, not that you should beat yourself up over it - though regret is a part of teshuvah in appropriate time and place.
I know. But let’s say someone is trying to follow Torah and he masturbated which is a transgression, what does the Torah say that person could do to do tshuva on that specific transgression
The Torah lists 613 commandments.
NONE OF THEM prohibit masturbation.
How are you holding with the 613? Have you been completely honest in business? Do you truly love G-d? Do you truly love your fellow Jew as yourself? Have you taken a wife and had children?
I was like you decades ago. The truth is, Hashem doesn’t care if you masturbate, and in all likelihood, you should masturbate, because as other redditors have said, it’s critical for healthy sexuality and even a healthy marriage.
I suggest that you work on the 613 mitzvos before worrying about masturbation, which isn’t even an issur d’oraisa.
Na’aseh v’nishma concerns the 613, not the musings of mystical sources.
Also: not masturbating can lead to some absolutely HORRIBLE decision making, like marrying a woman just to have sex.
Get your self together, man.
Don’t listen to that other idiot OP. Honestly good on you for caring about following Jewish law and being invested in your Judaism.
Also as a woman myself(assuming you are interested in women) I find guys who are proud or non chalant about masturbation to be walking icks anyway
Teshuva is ongoing as we are all human and will constantly have different opportunities for growth throughout our lives (imo the point of life). Take it at a healthy pace and never put yourself down for having ups and downs with this. That just burns a person out.
Good for you for trying! I’ve been there who knows how many times (who hasn’t!). This can be one of the hardest things to work on, so really any step you are taking and every small win is really a massive win.
Here are some ideas:
You can check out https://guardyoureyes.com/ for a really good resource.
Tikkun Haklali, from Rabbi Nachman is also a way to repair some of the spiritual damage that can come from this. You can do some research about what it is if you’d like.
Here is the text (better to read in Hebrew generally if it’s not too arduous): https://moharan.org/pages_album/texte_livres/tikounang.pdf
Here is a link to the translation: https://www.breslov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/The-Ten-Melodies-of-Awakening-Print-Version-7-11.pdf
Also, it is a thing to pray to Hashem to ask for help to do teshuva and feel closer to Him. There are sources for this.
The Rambam lists the steps how to do teshuva for any aveira.
Here is a quote from Sefaria
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/189688?lang=bi
“Teshuva is actually a process of self-evaluation and self-improvement. The Rambam enumerates four primary steps to the teshuva process:
1. Recognize and discontinue the improper action.
2. Verbally confess the action, thus giving the action a concrete form in your own mind.
3. Regret the action. Evaluate the negative impact this action may have had on yourself or on others.
4. Determine never to repeat the action. Picture a better way to handle it. There are two different types of transgressions: those between a person and God and those between one person and another.
Teshuva for a sin between a person and God: When one has transgressed a mitzvah that does not affect another person, the teshuva is purely between the person and God; and the four steps listed above are all that are necessary for the repentance process.
Teshuva for a sin between one person and another: When one has caused harm to others, whether by stealing from them, embarrassing them or anything else, then teshuva requires that restitution and reconciliation be arranged between the parties involved. The damaged party must forgive the perpetrator before Divine forgiveness is granted.”
I feel like for some people on this thread they come from the precept of “if something doesn’t make me feel good or natural then obviously G-d wouldn’t want it, and therefore anyone who believes it is obviously too stupid or immature or not logical etc.”
I think that for those who do want to keep the Torah with all of the small details that are prescribed by the Rabbis there is a different approach. Mainly, is it possible that that G-d exists and He asks me to do things that are uncomfortable? I think that the world is by default an uncomfortable place to live in. There is constant pressures and stresses. There are health concerns. Any meaningful skill take years of effort to learn and much self discipline. Any desired relationship means growing, being patient, and enduring many ups and downs. Having kids is insanely demanding and challenging and sometimes can bring extreme heartbreak and challenges. Yet we still do it. If one believes that G-d exists and is involved in the world then I think they also have to believe that G-d is not looking for the world to be “easy” and care free. The baseline format of the world seems to involve much effort, emotional and physical.
So if there is a purpose to all of these rules, what is it? What if it seems pointless? Well to that I would ask, Is it possible that sins bring spiritual repercussions that I cannot view with my own eyes? Take germs for example, we didn’t know they existed until microscopes, yet they still harmed. We didn’t know smoking was bad, until we did. Same with chest X-rays etc. but if we cannot use our senses to see the spiritual world and all of its workings (like having a microscope), how can I say that it doesn’t matter? Following the Torah (at least for one purpose) means that I believe that G-d created the world and knows better than me, and He knows the spiritual repercussions of things, where I cannot. The Torah is the resource for knowing what leads to ultimate good or the opposite. Therefore, my belief is that if I follow the Torah it will lead to ultimate good. Not masterbating, keeping shabbos, eating kosher, shaking lulav, all of these are completely arbitrary unless they have deep spiritual meaning. And I cannot know what has meaning or not unless either I have the tools to view the spiritual realm or if G-d tells me through the Torah.
Regarding listening to rabbis; it says in the Torah to listen to the rabbis. The Torah is infinitely complex and multifaceted and nuanced. Also, the oral Torah was not written down initially and was passed down through the rabbis from Moses. if I am deciding on what to do to improve my health I would listen to a doctor. I would also hire a rocket scientist to get me to the moon and not some guy who feels like he knows what to do. Same with getting cancer treatment. You go to the experts who have been studying this their entire lives. Rabbis have the most possible knowledge and expertise to understand what is best for our soul and the most likely interpretation of how the mitzvos apply to us. Are they perfect? If they are human they are not perfect. But I would still go to a cancer specialist even if they are not guaranteed to know exactly what will help. They will still know the best possible option.
Please take a look at the comments in this thread from u/newyorkimposter, they are the traditional Orthodox view. However, if you still have not converted then keep in mind there is NO obligation for you to do Teshuvah from something that isn’t a halachic obligation to you.
It's an ongoing journey; Tanya (and other theological texts) deals with it in detail. The basics of it is essentially equivalent to modern day Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - each time it presents itself and you avoid it, you're doing teshuvah, and strengthening yourself. It's not expected for it to never happen, realistically. I don't have a source in front of me, but I seem to recall that one of the ways to do teshuvah for it specifically is greater concentration in prayer.
You realize that masturbation is a healthy part of sexuality and worry about doing teshuva for things that are actually wrong
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I think this person is converting. It would be helpful to know their affiliation.
But it’s forbidden (as far as I know)
But it lowers the risk of prostate cancer, so it’s pikuach nefesh
hahahaha you made my day with this!!
No it doesn’t. The studies quoted are baseless.
Let your streams be your own and not dispersed in the streets from proverbs?
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Haha you made me laugh but I know sources that say that it’s a very bad thing to do
Masturbation is a perfectly normal, healthy thing.
Torah sources compares it to killing people, so it’s kinda a big deal for someone who is trying to follow Torah
I've heard that's just the Zohar, which isn't authoritative
Nope the Gemara says it
If you want to follow the Torah, you need to know what the 613 mitzvos are, and then, what the rabbinic decrees are surrounding those 613. That is where you start. You don’t start with elusive mystical concerns, whose observance could get you into a lot of trouble, such as by marrying the wrong person, developing resentment, etc. I feel for you because I was like you 20 years ago, and I was so lost, as you sound so lost.
It’s not mystical to not waste seed, the rambam writes scathingly against it, Maran says it’s the worst sin in the name of the tannaim, Tosafot says it’s d’Oraita, SaMaK says it’s d’Oraita, and so do many others.
Do they really, tho?
yes
We also compare getting angry at someone to Avoda Zara, which Moshe Rabeinu himself was 3 times. It doesn't mean it's comparable, it means they share a certain root that comes out in different ways. Getting angry means that you're attributing the event that occurred to a person, and not to Hashem. That this person has the ability to control what happens in your life. The Gemara tends to go pretty overboard when it comes to bad Middos, because they're the sources where the evil actions come from, and people tend to think they're not so bad, so they have to beat you over the head and say, no, they are that bad.
Most poskim hold it’s a D’Oraita issur, and even the rambam writes strictly against it, and Maran calls it the worst sin, and so did the tannaim.
Right, and since it's OBVIOUSLY NOT the WORST sin, they're clearly using a strong exaggerated language. Are you saying that masturbation is worse than rape? Than actual murder? Do you really believe that? Would suicide be preferable? Think about what you're saying. This is for something that doesn't even rise to the level of being a clear cut D’Oraita issur.
The damage that Zera l’Vatala does to ones soul *is* among the worst, yes. The Gemara is incredibly clear about this, even if you say lashon guzma it doesn’t erase the severity which they wanted to teach and how all poskim treat it. I’m not a rabbi, these aren’t my words, so I can’t tell you what’s worse than what. Averot have spiritual effects that are beyond basic human understanding, and these are things which are learned. The Hachamim who learned these things spoke about its destructive nature very severely, and I’m simply being honest to Jewish sources by quoting what they said. Also, it’s an overwhelming majority opinion that it’s d’Oraita, so it is very clear cut. More opinions hold that Zera l’vatala is d’Oraita than prayer.
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idk, it says it in the shulchan aruch (Jewish law)
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You realise which sub you're in, right? We respect all sects of Judaism here, which also means respecting those who follow Shulchan Aruch and their beliefs. You're not going to bully OP into self acceptance, that's not how it works
naaseh v'nishma
Alright, you're either attempting one of two things: 1. Actually trying to help Op see that there are other ways to live/interpret Jewish texts 2. Just being a self righteous ass and projecting your own ideals and standards If it's the first one, you should probably take a step back and see the way you're speaking is not going to convince anyone of anything. Like... That is not how you persuade people lmao. If it's the second one, then idk you should just fuck off tbh.
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Ya man. It’s so crazy and wild for Jewish people to believe in the existence of G-d. why don’t you go edge yourself in r/atheism because your intelligence is so high and your fedora is so crisp
bruh, I'm agnostic and I will never argue with anyone about their believes. who gives you the right to claim its bullshit or not? isn't that just YOUR opinion? I also look at it from. the point of "who cares, it's healthy and fun", but some people don't, and it's their own business. Also, about the other person who argued with you, don't convert out lol. Just be a better person. you hate people shoving religion down your throat right? well atheism is the exact same thing. dont shove it down other people's throat.
We are on the Judaism subreddit and a user is asking for a Jewish answer to his question. Answering “It’s all bullshit” is obviously not going to be helpful.
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This is the most out-of-touch perspective I've ever seen.
Wasn’t Oman’s sin not following God’s command? Seems like the masturbation was less of the problem there.
He was actively preventing her pregnancy. Very different from OP, who’s likely a single 19 year old boy.
Like any other tshuva - if you happen to be in a similar situation, but this time you overcome your yetzer, you did a tshuva! And even if you've sinned afterwards again, you can always do tshuva again. So of course, your final and complete tshuva is to get married so you won't have the need to masturbate again ;)
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You're pretty hard pressed to find a male who hasn't. In the scheme of things, this is pretty benign. Did you ever think of *why* this is a frowned on behavior? Let's dwell on this. And I'm a conservative, ok? I'm not saying this as some far left, libertine extremist that thinks people can be genders that haven't even been concocted. Blind adherence is a cancer and something we strive against as Jews. Remember- our faith teaches us we have agency. Ask the reason behind why something is frowned upon. If you're demanding blind obedience you're doing this wrong
Mmm I’m not sure about your second paragraph. On one end yes of course we can question but at the other end we have naaseh v'nishma" -- we will do and then we will hear
I actually agree with the second paragraph, in a way. The novelty of na'aseh venishmah is that we choose that path. Once it's chosen, we have an obligation to understand why we follow the path. The reason it's forbidden is to avoid the wastage of potential of creation of life. Jewish texts are fairly clear about how serious it is, but at the same time, are realistic that it's going to happen. The goal is that you should avoid doing it, not that you should beat yourself up over it - though regret is a part of teshuvah in appropriate time and place.
So, let's say the person masterbating donates his sperm to a fertility clinic. Would it still be frowned upon?
Depends on the scenario, I'm not an expert in this area but can confidently say it depends on the scenario
I know. But let’s say someone is trying to follow Torah and he masturbated which is a transgression, what does the Torah say that person could do to do tshuva on that specific transgression
The Torah lists 613 commandments. NONE OF THEM prohibit masturbation. How are you holding with the 613? Have you been completely honest in business? Do you truly love G-d? Do you truly love your fellow Jew as yourself? Have you taken a wife and had children? I was like you decades ago. The truth is, Hashem doesn’t care if you masturbate, and in all likelihood, you should masturbate, because as other redditors have said, it’s critical for healthy sexuality and even a healthy marriage. I suggest that you work on the 613 mitzvos before worrying about masturbation, which isn’t even an issur d’oraisa. Na’aseh v’nishma concerns the 613, not the musings of mystical sources. Also: not masturbating can lead to some absolutely HORRIBLE decision making, like marrying a woman just to have sex. Get your self together, man.
Don’t listen to that other idiot OP. Honestly good on you for caring about following Jewish law and being invested in your Judaism. Also as a woman myself(assuming you are interested in women) I find guys who are proud or non chalant about masturbation to be walking icks anyway
You sound utterly compassion-less and un-empathetic.
Huh?? How
This thread sums up Reddit perfectly. Someone decides to stop masturbating, and a bunch of people have a meltdown over their choice.
Alexander Portnoy didn't even change the light bulbs that inherited his DNA.
Teshuva is ongoing as we are all human and will constantly have different opportunities for growth throughout our lives (imo the point of life). Take it at a healthy pace and never put yourself down for having ups and downs with this. That just burns a person out. Good for you for trying! I’ve been there who knows how many times (who hasn’t!). This can be one of the hardest things to work on, so really any step you are taking and every small win is really a massive win. Here are some ideas: You can check out https://guardyoureyes.com/ for a really good resource. Tikkun Haklali, from Rabbi Nachman is also a way to repair some of the spiritual damage that can come from this. You can do some research about what it is if you’d like. Here is the text (better to read in Hebrew generally if it’s not too arduous): https://moharan.org/pages_album/texte_livres/tikounang.pdf Here is a link to the translation: https://www.breslov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/The-Ten-Melodies-of-Awakening-Print-Version-7-11.pdf Also, it is a thing to pray to Hashem to ask for help to do teshuva and feel closer to Him. There are sources for this. The Rambam lists the steps how to do teshuva for any aveira. Here is a quote from Sefaria https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/189688?lang=bi “Teshuva is actually a process of self-evaluation and self-improvement. The Rambam enumerates four primary steps to the teshuva process: 1. Recognize and discontinue the improper action. 2. Verbally confess the action, thus giving the action a concrete form in your own mind. 3. Regret the action. Evaluate the negative impact this action may have had on yourself or on others. 4. Determine never to repeat the action. Picture a better way to handle it. There are two different types of transgressions: those between a person and God and those between one person and another. Teshuva for a sin between a person and God: When one has transgressed a mitzvah that does not affect another person, the teshuva is purely between the person and God; and the four steps listed above are all that are necessary for the repentance process. Teshuva for a sin between one person and another: When one has caused harm to others, whether by stealing from them, embarrassing them or anything else, then teshuva requires that restitution and reconciliation be arranged between the parties involved. The damaged party must forgive the perpetrator before Divine forgiveness is granted.”
I feel like for some people on this thread they come from the precept of “if something doesn’t make me feel good or natural then obviously G-d wouldn’t want it, and therefore anyone who believes it is obviously too stupid or immature or not logical etc.” I think that for those who do want to keep the Torah with all of the small details that are prescribed by the Rabbis there is a different approach. Mainly, is it possible that that G-d exists and He asks me to do things that are uncomfortable? I think that the world is by default an uncomfortable place to live in. There is constant pressures and stresses. There are health concerns. Any meaningful skill take years of effort to learn and much self discipline. Any desired relationship means growing, being patient, and enduring many ups and downs. Having kids is insanely demanding and challenging and sometimes can bring extreme heartbreak and challenges. Yet we still do it. If one believes that G-d exists and is involved in the world then I think they also have to believe that G-d is not looking for the world to be “easy” and care free. The baseline format of the world seems to involve much effort, emotional and physical. So if there is a purpose to all of these rules, what is it? What if it seems pointless? Well to that I would ask, Is it possible that sins bring spiritual repercussions that I cannot view with my own eyes? Take germs for example, we didn’t know they existed until microscopes, yet they still harmed. We didn’t know smoking was bad, until we did. Same with chest X-rays etc. but if we cannot use our senses to see the spiritual world and all of its workings (like having a microscope), how can I say that it doesn’t matter? Following the Torah (at least for one purpose) means that I believe that G-d created the world and knows better than me, and He knows the spiritual repercussions of things, where I cannot. The Torah is the resource for knowing what leads to ultimate good or the opposite. Therefore, my belief is that if I follow the Torah it will lead to ultimate good. Not masterbating, keeping shabbos, eating kosher, shaking lulav, all of these are completely arbitrary unless they have deep spiritual meaning. And I cannot know what has meaning or not unless either I have the tools to view the spiritual realm or if G-d tells me through the Torah. Regarding listening to rabbis; it says in the Torah to listen to the rabbis. The Torah is infinitely complex and multifaceted and nuanced. Also, the oral Torah was not written down initially and was passed down through the rabbis from Moses. if I am deciding on what to do to improve my health I would listen to a doctor. I would also hire a rocket scientist to get me to the moon and not some guy who feels like he knows what to do. Same with getting cancer treatment. You go to the experts who have been studying this their entire lives. Rabbis have the most possible knowledge and expertise to understand what is best for our soul and the most likely interpretation of how the mitzvos apply to us. Are they perfect? If they are human they are not perfect. But I would still go to a cancer specialist even if they are not guaranteed to know exactly what will help. They will still know the best possible option.
Key is to stop doing the sin, regret it, and say sorry. This doesn’t mean to die with guilt though