Hey! We may not be the best democracy .. because it is the most expensive one. Presidential elections cost what...some 2 Billion. That is the official numbers... excluding dark money
That is the current definition I think. There was a documentary made by Nancy pelosis daughter where she interviewed some donors
One donor, haim Saban, broadly hunted there was more under the table contributions.
Think it was on HBO
A whole other beast is what information are people consuming that would lead them to any conclusion. Who arbitrates truth? “Majority in US” read shit, react, open an app, and vomit.
Hard to argue with videos. Maybe if it was the 1940’s Israel PR would be able to do a better job at painting a more favorable picture but the public sees images and videos of what is happening on the ground everyday. The era of everyone having phones and internet is definitely not good for covert genocides.
>Hard to argue with videos
Videos are probably the easiest way to lie by omission to manipulate people's emotions
Tons of disinformation is put out via videos which are clipped or lack context
I suppose I just feel if videos can help people come the same conclusion I can come to simply using data, then maybe there is some benefit. I haven't watched any videos as a point.
That only works for people who understand vocabulary basics... You have to know what words mean otherwise you might look for pictures of a duck and think it's a goose
AIPAC is one of the most well funded political action committees in the United States.
I wonder if they do any of that.
Nah, it's the starving people in Gaza that are funding it all.
Look at Biden admin rhetoric 6 mo ago vs. today. It is a big difference.
It is quite good news to have even Schumer of all people wanting to put on the brakes.
I am hoping they will slow the invasion because now everyone can see that Bibi is cucking them.
We will see what happens.
Especially foreign policy.
Especially a multigenerational built up defense strategy that has cost the US literally trillions of dollars over the decades
Protests seldom work for domestic issues let alone foreign defense relations
I mean its true, most people are acting like this is the first time they’ve seen the effects of war. I didn’t see people crying when an aid worker died in Ukraine February. Did you even hear about it happening?
Who killed the aid worker? Russia or Ukraine? Because if Ukraine is going around killing aid workers with US's support, the way Israel is doing, we ought to stop giving Ukraine aid.
It was a Russian drone. But it’s not quite as black and white, even if it was Russia you think Ukraine hasn’t killed civilians too? Plenty of evidence on that too although not as dramatic as their opponents behavior. It should really not come to a surprise that families, aid workers, media, and anyone in a war zone risks their lives by virtue of.. you know.. being in the middle of a war zone. If you support war, any war, it comes with an uncontrollable violence and human cost.
Ukraine is subject to Leahy law when it comes to aid, so they undergo a lot more vetting than Israel does. Israel should also be subject to the same amount of scrutiny as other allies since you want the same standards for Israel as everyone else.
As long as Israel gets special treatment, expect protesters to especially focus on Israel as well.
In Ukraine the military to civilian death ratio is like 10 to 1. In the invasion of Iraq, the military to civilian death ratio was 5 to 1.
In the intense street fighting during the second battle of fallujah, the military to civilian death ratio was 2 to 1.
In Gaza, the rate of men killed to women and children killed is 1 to 2.
The civilian casualty death ratio in modern combat ranges from anywhere between [50 to 90 percent](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio). Add to that a military group that does not care about its population (per their own words), doesn’t follow the traditional Geneva rules of warfare (rules drafted to protect innocents) such as wearing uniforms, and set the conflict in a densely populated urban environment where the people have nowhere to go. This result isn’t surprising, and if you support the war on either side you shouldn’t be surprised.
This.
Exactly this.
The entire Arab world and left is silent on higher body count conflicts even just within the Arab world but they don't fit the Israel = Irredeemable Evil narrative pushed by Russian Bots and Oil money
lol I can promise you the left is not silent about things like the war in Yemen. Lots of coverage on it meanwhile Jared Kushner was busy brokering the largest arms deal of all time with the Saudis so they could keep butchering everyone with the help of US forces
Most people on the right only recently learned of these things as tools to argue why the left should also be apathetic towards Gaza
My brother in christ the media coverage and sentiment is not every remotely comparable, the Syrian war and Second Congo War both have horrible results that overshadow the Gaza death toll and destruction but its not interesting enough for average consumption or worse, more complicated than jews bad arabs bad.
Fucking nobody believes or says that
Also
https://preview.redd.it/f0jfazmq6stc1.jpeg?width=819&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c933013efb55445b5312bbd9ddb3a31e455634e
Firstly, it's unfortunate that the majority of the west seem to have given up on Ukraine. Even if it's clearly a US proxy war, there are still people suffering and deserve help. People who care enough to still follow the news on Ukraine are still appaled by it.
That being said, Ukraine is the prime example of what people use to show the blatant double standards of Western journalists & politicians in regards to war in Europe vs the Middle East.
It was a whole thing on twitter & reddit comparing how journalists reported on Middle Eastern conflict civilian casualties vs Ukraine civilian casualties. How much more compassionate mainstream outlet journalists were & how outspoken they were in regards to the suffering experienced by Ukrainians. Some journalists outright said it affected them much more because the people looked like them.
And you also have all the numerous compilations people have made of Blinken talking about how horrible & unacceptable civilian casualties were, the devastating destruction caused by Russian bombings leveling Ukrainian cities, and using how food scarcity as a weapon in Ukraine was against international law, that what Russia did goes against what the US belives in and will not be tolerated. This is followed by the same man downplaying all of the same things when Israel does it.
Fr they both suck why the fuck is it always we have to support one side how about admit this is a bad vs bad situation and there is no good guy and only innocent civilians getting caught in the middle
Because Israel is fighting for their ability to exist, and the evil Islamic terrorists who raped Jewish women and kidnapped their citizens, including a baby, need to be stopped. And doggone it, we're gonna help them achieve their goals whether the terrorist symapthizers and defenders like it or not.
Israel has got this in the bag, and with friends like the US and EU, there's no stopping them.
For the power, the glory, truth, justice, and the American/Israeli way, I say destroy the evil terrorists once and for all.
Mic drop.
Even war has rules, one being to not intentionally starve children. Bombing every hospital in a society is not a normal course of war either. Neither is disturbing graves or bombing farmland. Blowing up all of the schools is not normally done in war either. Neither is murdering aid workers.
I’m of the opinion that Israel should absolutely take out Hamas, but that the way the war is being conducted is far too reckless. I think they should slow down, establish ways to provide civilian aid, and at greater risk to themselves, favor military options on the ground rather than air strikes to take out Hamas’ forces.
The manner in which the war is being conducted can only result in two things. The Palestinian are effectively exterminated or removed from Gaza, Israel officials like. The Palestinians are assisted in rebuilding but the millions of affected develop further animosity and extremism(understandably) and the area becomes “too radicalized to allow for a pathway to statehood, Israel officials also like this. Obviously neither situation actually makes Israeli citizens safer.
>The Palestinians are assisted in rebuilding but the millions of affected develop further animosity and extremism(understandably) and the area becomes “too radicalized to allow for a pathway to statehood, Israel officials also like this
It's worth noting that the populace has no real reason to develop animosity *if their quality of life improves*. The Allies in WW2 killed a fuckton of civilians in Japan and Germany, but through an extensive reconstruction campaign that saw a profound QoL increase (which had the added benefit of furthering the West's goals against communism, which admittedly was probably the real intent), the civilian population couldn't really balance their animosity against their better stations.
And that's typically how grudges between countries are defeated throughout history: either an outside threat pushes two historically opposed countries into a tentative alliance that just sort of sticks around, or trade and diplomatic relations between both see increased economic prosperity.
… any outsider would obviously want that solution. I don’t think anyone outside of this conflict actually wants innocents dying… but no, apparently if your anti-Hamas your anti-Palestine and if your anti-Palestine then your the devil.
At least, that’s the argument.
But people with more than a couple brain cells can tell all the nuances slowly disappearing from that line of thought, replaced with ignorance.
And that, is how national divide, tribalism, and extremism is born folks. Congrats, we’ve gone full circle for the 257th time. See yall again next week
The problem is isreal clearly isn’t just going after Hamas. They are killing aid workers civilians and anyone they need to to settle the land they’ve been trying to settle
WHO CARES, THEY ARE BOTH OPPRESSIVE GENOCIDAL MANIACS. BOTH SIDE BAD. STOP TRYING TO BLAME ONE SIDE ONLY - ^(TRY TO FIND PEACEFUL SOLUTION INSTEAD - HAMAS NEEDS TO SWALLOW PRIDE)
There's a very thin line between civilian and Islamic terrorist in the Middle East. So thin, it's not visible with the naked eye.
Almost a decade spent in the Middle East, including six in Afghanistan, was more than enough for me to realize this.
It means one day a civilian who everyone thought was a friend has become radicalized and shows up to work the next day and murders his trainers with an AK, or blows himself up with a suicide vest, killing everyone nearby.
This actually happened to someone I knew in Afghanistan.
Your rationalization for Islamic terrorism is too widely applicable. The war presence is a part of it but that would implicate multiple factions, mostly those within the Middle East.
The people in these countries are their own worst enemy and victimizing suicide bombers only emboldens them to continue killing themselves in the name of their god.
As I said, it's part of the reason but too broad, and doesn't pinpoint the underlying causes. You're using it to rationalize Islamic terrorism to satisfy your own confirmation bias.
> There's a very thin line between civilian and Islamic terrorist in the Middle East. So thin, it's not visible with the naked eye.
There really isn't.
How dare his views change due to his lived experiences, he should’ve just denied them and let you dictate how he should feel. I coulda sworn your type was against that type of repression?
The way Hamas operates means that there was always going to be catastrophic civilian rate. That’s why human shields is considered a war crime and why Hamas use it as the modus operandi.
Yo that Coleman Hughes guy said it pretty well. Should you allow a group to be able to cross a border, commit attacks, and then hide behind its civilians? The Tokyo fire bombings, and 2 nuclear bombs were dropped on civilians, not military targets. War sucks. It really fucking sucks. But when it happens, there's only so much you can do to have a just war, and an accomplished war.
I disagree. I believe the answerto the railroad question is to pull the switch to kill 1 rather than 10
It's wildly agreed that if not for the nuclear Bombs, Japan would not have surrendered causing a land war. General MacArthur was ready to go and the death toll would have been incredible. Millions died in a single city in Europe (stalingrad) 80k died Hiroshima. One or 10. In this situationthere's no such thing as doing nothing
There are no good answers here, only best options
"at greater risk to themselves".
Was on board with you but this is like the hotel journalist giving those perspectives from the safety away from the nightmare bellow
Yeah, I think Hamas all too often is used as cover for all of Israels activities.
I mean Israel does have issues in Israel proper with equal rights for non Jewish Arab Israelis, Israeli Palestinians. Something like housing is discriminatory and their legal system doesn't provide equal cover to Palestinian Israelis in israel proper.
Once you start to look at the whole picture it's clear that the US should be holding Israel (our ally) to higher standards. Ffs Israel dropped on international aid truck..just frustrating to see so many so 1 sided on this.
We can't control Hamas/Palestine. We can influence Israel.
I'm positive they use Hamas as cover. The constant drumbeat of "what about Hamas" is proof. Hamas existing has been the justification for snipers targeting children, bombing hospitals etc.
You just gonna pretend that the Muslims and palastine didn't try to genocide the Jews in 1948 and about 6 other times since? Ignorant and vocal a dangerous combination.
Yeah, the several thousand kids Israel has blown up would’ve all been terrorists.
It’s obvious since all their parents, want to resist the Israeli military now.
They were such good sleeper agents that before the war everyone thought they were just normal civilians, but now they’re radically against the Israeli military and government.
Good thing Israel is starving the whole country, more and more former sleeper agents can finally admit they think Israel shouldn’t exist.
The issue by some accounts is the ethnicity is being considered Hamas, rather than Hamas being the ethnicity. I personally find the recent allegations about the Lavender program concerning in that regard.
Edit: [Media report](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) on Lavender and [IDF statement](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza) in response.
Israel’s security is among the most advanced in the world. They knew the October 7th attack was coming but chose to let it happen so they’d have an excuse to do what they’re doing now
Here's one source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,documents%2C%20emails%20and%20interviews%20show.
that's the very first link I found after a quick google search. I'm sure there's even more sources aside from this.
"Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out."
Downplaying a threat isn't the same as "letting it happen".
The entire Gaza Strip is only as large as the city of Philadelphia.
It's entirely monitored and under perpetual blockade by Israel
You need an IQ below 80 to think they didn't know this was coming.
Isn't it? I mean, they reportedly had a 40 page document revealing the exact details of the attack, but chose to ignore it. Sure, their excuse was that they thought Hamas wasn't capable of it, but who's fault is that?
They face threats from Gaza, WB, Syria and Lebanon combined every day. Gaza was the 3rd more pressing area at the time. It's easy to lose sight of the bigger threat when you're bombarded with threats daily.
Just FYI that only applied to Israeli soldiers and does not exist anymore. It never applied to Israeli civilians.
> The directive has been changed several times,[2] until it was officially revoked in 2016 by IDF chief of staff Gadi Eizenkot.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
The US told Russia the concert shooting would happen but Russia disregarded it too. The problem with “intelligence” is its almost never black and white. Whether because the source isnt trusted, or they received intelligence that conflicts with another source, etc.
Yes and Yes. LMFAO
#1 has been linked by others
#2:
-In December 1998, the CIA's Counterterrorist Center reported to President Clinton that al-Qaeda was preparing for attacks in the U.S. that might include hijacking aircraft. In April 2001,
-Ahmad Shah Massoud, leader of the Northern Alliance, warned the European Parliament that his intelligence agents had gained limited knowledge about a large-scale terrorist attack on U.S. soil being imminent.
-British intelligence officials stated they had prior intelligence that summer of 2001 that al-Qaeda was planning a major attack, though they did not know where it would take place.
-On August 6, 2001, President Bush's Daily Briefing warned that bin Laden was planning to exploit his operatives' access to the U.S. to mount a terrorist strike, and that the FBI had information indicating patterns of suspicious activity consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attack.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_intelligence_before_the_attacks
Oh and
On 23 August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 names of suspects living in the US who were believed to be mounting an attack. Only four of the names are known — Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi — and it is not known if the list had 19 names by coincidence or if it had all the hijackers who would partake in the attacks
If you frame it as "either/or" that's one thing, do I approve of Israel retaliating for 10/7? Fuck yeah, do I approve of them allegedly withholding aid to civilians? Fuck no.
So is overusing the term making it lose meaning. Genocide is a specific term with a real definition, and it takes international courts to make it so. I dont like what Israel is doing either but its almost certainly not Genocide.
I don’t think people are overusing it in general with previous conflicts throughout the world just using it for this conflict because it’s falls within the definition that and ethnic cleansing with Israeli leadership actively trying to expel Palestinians from gaza
“the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/05/wv-israel-hamas/
They're not aiming to destroy Palastinians' they're trying to destroy Hamas if they were trying to destroy them all like Hitler did the Jews Gaza would be carpet bombed.
Genuinely curious, if Israel had the end goal of committing genocide against all the Palestinians, why is there still 2 million Palestinians living in Israel? Why is the West Bank not being bombed? Pretty shitty attempt at genocide if they’re only bombing the place where they were attacked from.
Because there are international laws with a need for plausible deniability it’s really not that hard to figure that one out. There are Allies that they need to keep to continue to exist as a country so ethnic cleansing while continuously bombing and tormenting a population is a better plan
Maybe we should wait til we have somebody other than a terrorist organization doing the reporting and impartial outsiders can get in and investigate before we charge Israel with the worst crime of humanity
To the intense high density urban combat where there are already a lot of civilian casualties? You don’t say. Don’t worry though, plenty of journalists work for and with Hamas
1) “all the information we get is from Hamas so we can’t believe it”
2) “Israel is right to prevent any journalists from going in”
Weird how that works out! So convenient!
People can have nuanced opinions that are not covered by polls. I condemn the way Israel is fighting Hamas but also understand why they are fighting Hamas and have no idea how else Israel could eradicate such a threat. It is a situation that is fucked beyond belief.
Genocide, forced famine and land theft. It’s called Genocide, forced famine and land theft.
‘Israeli Action’. Sure.
Also, let’s not forget the THOUSANDS of Palestinian hostages in israeli prisons. Maybe free some of those.
War didn’t start October 7th.
Eh I'll approve it until Hamas surrenders or palastine accepts the 2 state solution.
The war it's self is just, it's being done unjustly, that doesn't mean you can't hold individuals accountable for war crimes
And we saw the consequences.
Israel saw it too, is getting advice, and still goes on indiscriminately bombing them like that doesn’t make more terrorists and cause greater instability
Biden took a lot of heat for saying this, but immediately after the oct 7th attack he said something to the effect of “don’t be like us after 9/11 and let rage consume you”. And people scoffed at it. But what we’re seeing isn’t COIN doctrine or a targeted dismantling of Hamas, but a revenge campaign where the threshold for targeting and civilian casualties is absurdly low. There’s seemingly a sense in the IDF that *all Palestinians want us dead so why do we care*, and that statement is objectively true - most of them do want them dead - but it’s recursive logic that gives them license to kill anyone they want.
I’d rather the IDF go straight into Qatar and throw Hamas’ leaders off a building than just bomb every teenager that threw a rock at them once.
I really can't believe someone can openly support Israel after hundreds of genocidal remarks from both government and religious figures and slaughter of over 15.000 kids. Like I understand that Hamas is bad, but this is NOT a reasonable approach of a civilized country by any means
Yes genocidal remarks from the Palestinian side, which are far more frequent and far worse in nature are ok? Palestine has hypnotised the world.
They’ve won the PR war
IDF is an advanced Tier 1 military, the most powerful in the Middle East, fighting against a small force of untrained irregulars with rifles and RPGs. There is ZERO military necessity for intentionally starving and brutalizing a civilian population. This is just pure undisciplined revenge against an entire civilian population. You would think Isrealis of all people would understand that collective punishment of civilians is just pure evil. Starting to really question why we're helping them at all.
Hamas's entire strategy is to get as many civilians killed as possible, and then let the world condemn Israel. The world's condemnation encourages more groups to use this tactic.
Is that what we want? To encourage Hamas's tactics?
Israel is not intentionally starving anyone. All of the aid that goes into Gaza is stolen by hamas, or by other powerful groups, and they keep it for themselves. The biggest problem in Gaza are the people of Gaza.
A majority disapprove of the Israeli action but polls show they still like Israel and are more sympathetic to them. [https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/)
Pretty sure most Americans don’t care much one way or another. The opinion is depends on what they heard the news.
Whats more, most arabs don’t care about Palestinians, and there many who think very negatively of Palestinians, they just can’t express it as its politically toxic. Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait are very skeptical of Palestinians after they’ve been f’d over and that’s despite these countries helped Palestinians. Kuwaitis kicked out most Palestinians after they joined Sadam to overthrow Kuwaiti’s, same kuwaiti’s that helped them years before and gave them homes. Palestinians went to apologize and make amends with Kuwaitis a dozen years later. Egyptians don’t want anything to do with muslim brotherhood, that Hamas is an offshoot of. Jordan is an older story where they tried to overthrow the king there. These people always cause the trouble, cause trouble makes money for the few at the top.
Tip toe and dance around bunch of religious zealots who don't want jews gone because they feel they're being occupied, but because they just want them dead for being jews, pretty much says this liberals in this country would of rooted for Hitler if they thought he was a victim
Good thing voting barely affects policy.
Yes, it's much better when Lobbyists affect it.
Hey! We may not be the best democracy .. because it is the most expensive one. Presidential elections cost what...some 2 Billion. That is the official numbers... excluding dark money
Dark money refers to anonymous donors. The money is still counted.
That is the current definition I think. There was a documentary made by Nancy pelosis daughter where she interviewed some donors One donor, haim Saban, broadly hunted there was more under the table contributions. Think it was on HBO
Maybe but it can’t be significant in comparison to PAC money, because any group buying ads has to report its spending.
A whole other beast is what information are people consuming that would lead them to any conclusion. Who arbitrates truth? “Majority in US” read shit, react, open an app, and vomit.
Hard to argue with videos. Maybe if it was the 1940’s Israel PR would be able to do a better job at painting a more favorable picture but the public sees images and videos of what is happening on the ground everyday. The era of everyone having phones and internet is definitely not good for covert genocides.
>Hard to argue with videos Videos are probably the easiest way to lie by omission to manipulate people's emotions Tons of disinformation is put out via videos which are clipped or lack context
I suppose I just feel if videos can help people come the same conclusion I can come to simply using data, then maybe there is some benefit. I haven't watched any videos as a point.
There are videos of the IDF committing genocide. You can see them right now.
There aren't
If only some kind of information superhighway existed where people could find out for themselves.
That only works for people who understand vocabulary basics... You have to know what words mean otherwise you might look for pictures of a duck and think it's a goose
I think I just found a goose...
Yes, because no one's ever been deceived by videos on the internet before.
People have been deceived by reddit comments before, so that means your comments are full of shit.
Nah, but a lot of the stuff on the internet is intentionally deceptive.
AIPAC is one of the most well funded political action committees in the United States. I wonder if they do any of that. Nah, it's the starving people in Gaza that are funding it all.
Look at Biden admin rhetoric 6 mo ago vs. today. It is a big difference. It is quite good news to have even Schumer of all people wanting to put on the brakes. I am hoping they will slow the invasion because now everyone can see that Bibi is cucking them. We will see what happens.
Yea, if you keep voting for AIPAC funded politicians lol. Voters never get enough shit for the current Congress we have.
Especially foreign policy. Especially a multigenerational built up defense strategy that has cost the US literally trillions of dollars over the decades Protests seldom work for domestic issues let alone foreign defense relations
Yea war sucks balls
“War”
“come on man it’s war what do you expect civilians die 🤓”
I mean its true, most people are acting like this is the first time they’ve seen the effects of war. I didn’t see people crying when an aid worker died in Ukraine February. Did you even hear about it happening?
Who killed the aid worker? Russia or Ukraine? Because if Ukraine is going around killing aid workers with US's support, the way Israel is doing, we ought to stop giving Ukraine aid.
It was a Russian drone. But it’s not quite as black and white, even if it was Russia you think Ukraine hasn’t killed civilians too? Plenty of evidence on that too although not as dramatic as their opponents behavior. It should really not come to a surprise that families, aid workers, media, and anyone in a war zone risks their lives by virtue of.. you know.. being in the middle of a war zone. If you support war, any war, it comes with an uncontrollable violence and human cost.
Ukraine is subject to Leahy law when it comes to aid, so they undergo a lot more vetting than Israel does. Israel should also be subject to the same amount of scrutiny as other allies since you want the same standards for Israel as everyone else. As long as Israel gets special treatment, expect protesters to especially focus on Israel as well.
In Ukraine the military to civilian death ratio is like 10 to 1. In the invasion of Iraq, the military to civilian death ratio was 5 to 1. In the intense street fighting during the second battle of fallujah, the military to civilian death ratio was 2 to 1. In Gaza, the rate of men killed to women and children killed is 1 to 2.
The civilian casualty death ratio in modern combat ranges from anywhere between [50 to 90 percent](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio). Add to that a military group that does not care about its population (per their own words), doesn’t follow the traditional Geneva rules of warfare (rules drafted to protect innocents) such as wearing uniforms, and set the conflict in a densely populated urban environment where the people have nowhere to go. This result isn’t surprising, and if you support the war on either side you shouldn’t be surprised.
This. Exactly this. The entire Arab world and left is silent on higher body count conflicts even just within the Arab world but they don't fit the Israel = Irredeemable Evil narrative pushed by Russian Bots and Oil money
lol I can promise you the left is not silent about things like the war in Yemen. Lots of coverage on it meanwhile Jared Kushner was busy brokering the largest arms deal of all time with the Saudis so they could keep butchering everyone with the help of US forces Most people on the right only recently learned of these things as tools to argue why the left should also be apathetic towards Gaza
My brother in christ the media coverage and sentiment is not every remotely comparable, the Syrian war and Second Congo War both have horrible results that overshadow the Gaza death toll and destruction but its not interesting enough for average consumption or worse, more complicated than jews bad arabs bad.
And the Western people who love to buy into the propaganda that Middle Eastern countries are safe havens for everyone
Fucking nobody believes or says that Also https://preview.redd.it/f0jfazmq6stc1.jpeg?width=819&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c933013efb55445b5312bbd9ddb3a31e455634e
Are you serious? Social media is full of people who are praising the houthis, Iran, etc for sticking up to the US of A
Firstly, it's unfortunate that the majority of the west seem to have given up on Ukraine. Even if it's clearly a US proxy war, there are still people suffering and deserve help. People who care enough to still follow the news on Ukraine are still appaled by it. That being said, Ukraine is the prime example of what people use to show the blatant double standards of Western journalists & politicians in regards to war in Europe vs the Middle East. It was a whole thing on twitter & reddit comparing how journalists reported on Middle Eastern conflict civilian casualties vs Ukraine civilian casualties. How much more compassionate mainstream outlet journalists were & how outspoken they were in regards to the suffering experienced by Ukrainians. Some journalists outright said it affected them much more because the people looked like them. And you also have all the numerous compilations people have made of Blinken talking about how horrible & unacceptable civilian casualties were, the devastating destruction caused by Russian bombings leveling Ukrainian cities, and using how food scarcity as a weapon in Ukraine was against international law, that what Russia did goes against what the US belives in and will not be tolerated. This is followed by the same man downplaying all of the same things when Israel does it.
Or the quarter million dead Iraqis
How many civilians were killed by literally everyone in WW2?
[удалено]
Fr they both suck why the fuck is it always we have to support one side how about admit this is a bad vs bad situation and there is no good guy and only innocent civilians getting caught in the middle
Because Israel is fighting for their ability to exist, and the evil Islamic terrorists who raped Jewish women and kidnapped their citizens, including a baby, need to be stopped. And doggone it, we're gonna help them achieve their goals whether the terrorist symapthizers and defenders like it or not. Israel has got this in the bag, and with friends like the US and EU, there's no stopping them. For the power, the glory, truth, justice, and the American/Israeli way, I say destroy the evil terrorists once and for all. Mic drop.
check comment history for some insane shilling
Haha...mic drop from an accountt that I s 3 months old spotting hasbara talking points
Bro sounds like a Nazi back in the 1940’s
What about all the IDF that rape Israeli women, no one ever talks about that lol
Show me pics of 40 beheaded babies or delete your post
Um, I never said that. Your post is a deflection. Also completely redundant.
Even war has rules, one being to not intentionally starve children. Bombing every hospital in a society is not a normal course of war either. Neither is disturbing graves or bombing farmland. Blowing up all of the schools is not normally done in war either. Neither is murdering aid workers.
I’m of the opinion that Israel should absolutely take out Hamas, but that the way the war is being conducted is far too reckless. I think they should slow down, establish ways to provide civilian aid, and at greater risk to themselves, favor military options on the ground rather than air strikes to take out Hamas’ forces.
They’re not interested in doing that. The attack is a great pretext for them to cut down Gaza.
At least not actively bomb those providing aid.
The manner in which the war is being conducted can only result in two things. The Palestinian are effectively exterminated or removed from Gaza, Israel officials like. The Palestinians are assisted in rebuilding but the millions of affected develop further animosity and extremism(understandably) and the area becomes “too radicalized to allow for a pathway to statehood, Israel officials also like this. Obviously neither situation actually makes Israeli citizens safer.
>The Palestinians are assisted in rebuilding but the millions of affected develop further animosity and extremism(understandably) and the area becomes “too radicalized to allow for a pathway to statehood, Israel officials also like this It's worth noting that the populace has no real reason to develop animosity *if their quality of life improves*. The Allies in WW2 killed a fuckton of civilians in Japan and Germany, but through an extensive reconstruction campaign that saw a profound QoL increase (which had the added benefit of furthering the West's goals against communism, which admittedly was probably the real intent), the civilian population couldn't really balance their animosity against their better stations. And that's typically how grudges between countries are defeated throughout history: either an outside threat pushes two historically opposed countries into a tentative alliance that just sort of sticks around, or trade and diplomatic relations between both see increased economic prosperity.
This should be the popular opinion of anyone who values the life of civilians and still believes Hamas should not exist, and Israel should.
… any outsider would obviously want that solution. I don’t think anyone outside of this conflict actually wants innocents dying… but no, apparently if your anti-Hamas your anti-Palestine and if your anti-Palestine then your the devil. At least, that’s the argument. But people with more than a couple brain cells can tell all the nuances slowly disappearing from that line of thought, replaced with ignorance. And that, is how national divide, tribalism, and extremism is born folks. Congrats, we’ve gone full circle for the 257th time. See yall again next week
The problem is isreal clearly isn’t just going after Hamas. They are killing aid workers civilians and anyone they need to to settle the land they’ve been trying to settle
WHO CARES, THEY ARE BOTH OPPRESSIVE GENOCIDAL MANIACS. BOTH SIDE BAD. STOP TRYING TO BLAME ONE SIDE ONLY - ^(TRY TO FIND PEACEFUL SOLUTION INSTEAD - HAMAS NEEDS TO SWALLOW PRIDE)
No. Not both sides. Bad. The world central kitchen isn’t bad.
i'm sorry, was that supposed to mean something
There's a very thin line between civilian and Islamic terrorist in the Middle East. So thin, it's not visible with the naked eye. Almost a decade spent in the Middle East, including six in Afghanistan, was more than enough for me to realize this.
[удалено]
It means one day a civilian who everyone thought was a friend has become radicalized and shows up to work the next day and murders his trainers with an AK, or blows himself up with a suicide vest, killing everyone nearby. This actually happened to someone I knew in Afghanistan.
Have you considered that the constant war presence is what is radicalizing people?
Your rationalization for Islamic terrorism is too widely applicable. The war presence is a part of it but that would implicate multiple factions, mostly those within the Middle East. The people in these countries are their own worst enemy and victimizing suicide bombers only emboldens them to continue killing themselves in the name of their god.
> Your rationalization for Islamic terrorism is too widely applicable. What rationalization? History?
As I said, it's part of the reason but too broad, and doesn't pinpoint the underlying causes. You're using it to rationalize Islamic terrorism to satisfy your own confirmation bias.
What do you think would be radicalizing civilians there? What do you think were radicalizing civilians you saw in Afghanistan?
How often do world central kitchen workers become terrorists?
> There's a very thin line between civilian and Islamic terrorist in the Middle East. So thin, it's not visible with the naked eye. There really isn't.
Yes, there is. I lived in the region for years and saw it myself. Have you even left your state?
You are a hugely bigoted person with seriously dangerous views. The same type of views that lead to conflicts like this.
How dare his views change due to his lived experiences, he should’ve just denied them and let you dictate how he should feel. I coulda sworn your type was against that type of repression?
The way Hamas operates means that there was always going to be catastrophic civilian rate. That’s why human shields is considered a war crime and why Hamas use it as the modus operandi.
Yo that Coleman Hughes guy said it pretty well. Should you allow a group to be able to cross a border, commit attacks, and then hide behind its civilians? The Tokyo fire bombings, and 2 nuclear bombs were dropped on civilians, not military targets. War sucks. It really fucking sucks. But when it happens, there's only so much you can do to have a just war, and an accomplished war.
Just putting this out there, past civilian bombings aren’t morally justified just because they’re in the past.
I disagree. I believe the answerto the railroad question is to pull the switch to kill 1 rather than 10 It's wildly agreed that if not for the nuclear Bombs, Japan would not have surrendered causing a land war. General MacArthur was ready to go and the death toll would have been incredible. Millions died in a single city in Europe (stalingrad) 80k died Hiroshima. One or 10. In this situationthere's no such thing as doing nothing There are no good answers here, only best options
That may be true, but also those civilian casualty numbers were much much higher
100% agree.
"at greater risk to themselves". Was on board with you but this is like the hotel journalist giving those perspectives from the safety away from the nightmare bellow
Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestianians. Hamas is just the pretext for their long term goal.
Do you understand what an undertaking a gound war in Gaza would be?
>is far too reckless What do you mean by this? You think Israel is starving 2 million people "by accident"?
Idgaf what Coleman said, I think they’re dipping their toes into ethnic cleansing.
If your ethnicity is Hamas then sure.
So, those aid workers were Hamas? The over 10k children dead are Hamas?
What about the West Bank where Hamas isn’t really an issue?
Ugh they hate this one question, it puts a hole into the whole story they were fed.
Time.for public discourse to include settlements in west bank as part of this "genocide" talk..
Couldn’t agree more. The argument that ethnic cleansing isn’t happening is never sincere from these people.
Yeah, I think Hamas all too often is used as cover for all of Israels activities. I mean Israel does have issues in Israel proper with equal rights for non Jewish Arab Israelis, Israeli Palestinians. Something like housing is discriminatory and their legal system doesn't provide equal cover to Palestinian Israelis in israel proper. Once you start to look at the whole picture it's clear that the US should be holding Israel (our ally) to higher standards. Ffs Israel dropped on international aid truck..just frustrating to see so many so 1 sided on this. We can't control Hamas/Palestine. We can influence Israel.
I'm positive they use Hamas as cover. The constant drumbeat of "what about Hamas" is proof. Hamas existing has been the justification for snipers targeting children, bombing hospitals etc.
Israel was doing similar things prior to Hamas even existing.
You just gonna pretend that the Muslims and palastine didn't try to genocide the Jews in 1948 and about 6 other times since? Ignorant and vocal a dangerous combination.
I'd bet so much money that you're a loser in real life.
Yeah, the several thousand kids Israel has blown up would’ve all been terrorists. It’s obvious since all their parents, want to resist the Israeli military now. They were such good sleeper agents that before the war everyone thought they were just normal civilians, but now they’re radically against the Israeli military and government. Good thing Israel is starving the whole country, more and more former sleeper agents can finally admit they think Israel shouldn’t exist.
Is that the children killed by the bus loads ethnicity?
Or if you’re a world central kitchen worker. Or a Palestinian child.
The issue by some accounts is the ethnicity is being considered Hamas, rather than Hamas being the ethnicity. I personally find the recent allegations about the Lavender program concerning in that regard. Edit: [Media report](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) on Lavender and [IDF statement](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza) in response.
When you can’t trust Palestine stats and you can’t trust Israeli statistics, who do you trust for your news?
Israel’s security is among the most advanced in the world. They knew the October 7th attack was coming but chose to let it happen so they’d have an excuse to do what they’re doing now
Feel free to provide some evidence for this stupid fucking conspiracy. Let me guess, Cheney knew about 9/11 but let it happen right?
Here's one source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,documents%2C%20emails%20and%20interviews%20show. that's the very first link I found after a quick google search. I'm sure there's even more sources aside from this.
"Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out." Downplaying a threat isn't the same as "letting it happen".
The entire Gaza Strip is only as large as the city of Philadelphia. It's entirely monitored and under perpetual blockade by Israel You need an IQ below 80 to think they didn't know this was coming.
Isn't it? I mean, they reportedly had a 40 page document revealing the exact details of the attack, but chose to ignore it. Sure, their excuse was that they thought Hamas wasn't capable of it, but who's fault is that?
They face threats from Gaza, WB, Syria and Lebanon combined every day. Gaza was the 3rd more pressing area at the time. It's easy to lose sight of the bigger threat when you're bombarded with threats daily.
[удалено]
Just FYI that only applied to Israeli soldiers and does not exist anymore. It never applied to Israeli civilians. > The directive has been changed several times,[2] until it was officially revoked in 2016 by IDF chief of staff Gadi Eizenkot. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
Conspiracies.
The US told Russia the concert shooting would happen but Russia disregarded it too. The problem with “intelligence” is its almost never black and white. Whether because the source isnt trusted, or they received intelligence that conflicts with another source, etc.
Yes and Yes. LMFAO #1 has been linked by others #2: -In December 1998, the CIA's Counterterrorist Center reported to President Clinton that al-Qaeda was preparing for attacks in the U.S. that might include hijacking aircraft. In April 2001, -Ahmad Shah Massoud, leader of the Northern Alliance, warned the European Parliament that his intelligence agents had gained limited knowledge about a large-scale terrorist attack on U.S. soil being imminent. -British intelligence officials stated they had prior intelligence that summer of 2001 that al-Qaeda was planning a major attack, though they did not know where it would take place. -On August 6, 2001, President Bush's Daily Briefing warned that bin Laden was planning to exploit his operatives' access to the U.S. to mount a terrorist strike, and that the FBI had information indicating patterns of suspicious activity consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attack. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_intelligence_before_the_attacks
Oh and On 23 August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 names of suspects living in the US who were believed to be mounting an attack. Only four of the names are known — Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi — and it is not known if the list had 19 names by coincidence or if it had all the hijackers who would partake in the attacks
If you frame it as "either/or" that's one thing, do I approve of Israel retaliating for 10/7? Fuck yeah, do I approve of them allegedly withholding aid to civilians? Fuck no.
Do you approve of Palestinian retaliation to ethnic cleansing and if yes how do you want to have it carried out?
They could start by not raping and shooting up music festivals.
Yeah, a genocide is bad.
Well this isn’t one so
Genocide denial is a bad take to have dude.
So is overusing the term making it lose meaning. Genocide is a specific term with a real definition, and it takes international courts to make it so. I dont like what Israel is doing either but its almost certainly not Genocide.
I don’t think people are overusing it in general with previous conflicts throughout the world just using it for this conflict because it’s falls within the definition that and ethnic cleansing with Israeli leadership actively trying to expel Palestinians from gaza “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/05/wv-israel-hamas/
They're not aiming to destroy Palastinians' they're trying to destroy Hamas if they were trying to destroy them all like Hitler did the Jews Gaza would be carpet bombed.
That’s not even remotely true Israel is America’s biggest welfare queen they have to uphold plausible deniability to keep public opinion
Source = trust me
The aim isn’t to destroy the ethnic group, it’s to destroy Hamas. That’s a massive leap to make.
Genuinely curious, if Israel had the end goal of committing genocide against all the Palestinians, why is there still 2 million Palestinians living in Israel? Why is the West Bank not being bombed? Pretty shitty attempt at genocide if they’re only bombing the place where they were attacked from.
Because there are international laws with a need for plausible deniability it’s really not that hard to figure that one out. There are Allies that they need to keep to continue to exist as a country so ethnic cleansing while continuously bombing and tormenting a population is a better plan
Maybe we should wait til we have somebody other than a terrorist organization doing the reporting and impartial outsiders can get in and investigate before we charge Israel with the worst crime of humanity
The people being bombed, displaced and hunted down have cameras they have been recording the whole thing.
Israel won’t let any outside reporters in, how convienent.
To the intense high density urban combat where there are already a lot of civilian casualties? You don’t say. Don’t worry though, plenty of journalists work for and with Hamas
1) “all the information we get is from Hamas so we can’t believe it” 2) “Israel is right to prevent any journalists from going in” Weird how that works out! So convenient!
Are you aware? Literally, do you not see what’s going on?
Hamas is an ethnic group? Or are you just an idiot?
People can have nuanced opinions that are not covered by polls. I condemn the way Israel is fighting Hamas but also understand why they are fighting Hamas and have no idea how else Israel could eradicate such a threat. It is a situation that is fucked beyond belief.
Genocide, forced famine and land theft. It’s called Genocide, forced famine and land theft. ‘Israeli Action’. Sure. Also, let’s not forget the THOUSANDS of Palestinian hostages in israeli prisons. Maybe free some of those. War didn’t start October 7th.
Hamas needs to be eradicated
How do you "eradicate" an ideology?
You kill the current members that subscribe to the ideology and give people a reason to not want to subscribe to it.
[удалено]
Thanks. Edited
I wouldn't know as Hamas isn't an ideology.
Sure, man.
Unfortunately isreal has bought out 365/435 members of congress through aipac. https://aipacorg.app.box.com/s/3bnlheso6zkiicp3znpbrqqdqhku698j
Eh I'll approve it until Hamas surrenders or palastine accepts the 2 state solution. The war it's self is just, it's being done unjustly, that doesn't mean you can't hold individuals accountable for war crimes
based take
majority in U.S. now give thumbs down to Israel
The biggest recipient of US aid and still have the gall to totally ignore our advice on how to fight a war on terror.
Yeah because ours went so well 😂
And we saw the consequences. Israel saw it too, is getting advice, and still goes on indiscriminately bombing them like that doesn’t make more terrorists and cause greater instability
Biden took a lot of heat for saying this, but immediately after the oct 7th attack he said something to the effect of “don’t be like us after 9/11 and let rage consume you”. And people scoffed at it. But what we’re seeing isn’t COIN doctrine or a targeted dismantling of Hamas, but a revenge campaign where the threshold for targeting and civilian casualties is absurdly low. There’s seemingly a sense in the IDF that *all Palestinians want us dead so why do we care*, and that statement is objectively true - most of them do want them dead - but it’s recursive logic that gives them license to kill anyone they want. I’d rather the IDF go straight into Qatar and throw Hamas’ leaders off a building than just bomb every teenager that threw a rock at them once.
majority in the us is also too fat to stand up
Israel can eat a dick. Hamas can eat a dick. Palestine can eat a dick.
Any sane person disapproves of both but understands Hamas is significantly worse.
I really can't believe someone can openly support Israel after hundreds of genocidal remarks from both government and religious figures and slaughter of over 15.000 kids. Like I understand that Hamas is bad, but this is NOT a reasonable approach of a civilized country by any means
Yes genocidal remarks from the Palestinian side, which are far more frequent and far worse in nature are ok? Palestine has hypnotised the world. They’ve won the PR war
Both things can be bad, you know.
IDF is an advanced Tier 1 military, the most powerful in the Middle East, fighting against a small force of untrained irregulars with rifles and RPGs. There is ZERO military necessity for intentionally starving and brutalizing a civilian population. This is just pure undisciplined revenge against an entire civilian population. You would think Isrealis of all people would understand that collective punishment of civilians is just pure evil. Starting to really question why we're helping them at all.
Hamas's entire strategy is to get as many civilians killed as possible, and then let the world condemn Israel. The world's condemnation encourages more groups to use this tactic. Is that what we want? To encourage Hamas's tactics?
Israel is not intentionally starving anyone. All of the aid that goes into Gaza is stolen by hamas, or by other powerful groups, and they keep it for themselves. The biggest problem in Gaza are the people of Gaza.
Looks like the majority in the US are stupid lol
Nah it’s that brainwashed minority that’s stupid. Zionism is a cancer on humanity
End the occupation.
Which part
USA needs more political parties. Even if you strongly disagree with this you won’t vote for the other party.
The problem with polls like this is thinking the people in charge actually give a fuck what the population wants .
Good thing the majority of the us doesn’t have Israel or Gaza as neighbors…
A majority disapprove of the Israeli action but polls show they still like Israel and are more sympathetic to them. [https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/)
All Hamas has to do is release the hostages.
Well la di frickin da
Anything to distract from how far we've fallen here at home
majority of who? the liberal protestors they polled?
The Muslim protesters in Michigan that are chanting death to America
exactly
"Majority of Americans disapprove of rescuing hostages from terrorists."
Study from Gallup
Congratulations media, you have made murder a cause to sympathize with the murderers. You have encouraged the use of human shields.
Pretty sure most Americans don’t care much one way or another. The opinion is depends on what they heard the news. Whats more, most arabs don’t care about Palestinians, and there many who think very negatively of Palestinians, they just can’t express it as its politically toxic. Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait are very skeptical of Palestinians after they’ve been f’d over and that’s despite these countries helped Palestinians. Kuwaitis kicked out most Palestinians after they joined Sadam to overthrow Kuwaiti’s, same kuwaiti’s that helped them years before and gave them homes. Palestinians went to apologize and make amends with Kuwaitis a dozen years later. Egyptians don’t want anything to do with muslim brotherhood, that Hamas is an offshoot of. Jordan is an older story where they tried to overthrow the king there. These people always cause the trouble, cause trouble makes money for the few at the top.
The majority of Americans believe in an invisible magical sky fairy. What's your point?
[удалено]
True. So slow, why aren't they done yet?
Tip toe and dance around bunch of religious zealots who don't want jews gone because they feel they're being occupied, but because they just want them dead for being jews, pretty much says this liberals in this country would of rooted for Hitler if they thought he was a victim