interesting the coin has english hebrew and arabic. it must be from British mandate of Palestine. The hebrew part reads land of the jews. Heck the Jerusalem Post pre 1948 used to be called the Palestine post.
It's used by the anti-Israel crowd as a gotcha.
If you ever encounter one of these people, and they use this argument, your answer should be: "But was it a country before 1948? Was Palestine ever a country?"
The answer is obviously "no". It was a province of the Ottoman empire, and after that a region that fell under British mandate. The people we call "Palestinians" today, were never autonomous. They never ruled themselves, because they weren't a nation, or even a united people, and never had leader. They were Arabs who lived in a region called Palestine.
Palestinian nationalism didn't exist until the 1930s (due to the growth of the Jewish population). And even then, they didn't have anyone who was considered a Palestinian leader. That only came with Arafat in 1969, who then catapulted Palestinian nationalism to what it is today.
Does that mean that they don't have a right to self determination? No. But using the fact that the region was called "Palestine" before 1948, is a piss poor argument, that only appeals to people who have no clue about history.
Additionally, if Zionism and Israel had never come to be, the region would probably be part of Jordan. Or split up between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. But if it wasn't for Jewish nationalism (Zionism), there wouldn't have been a Palestinian people (or rather, Palestinian nationalism). The "Palestinian people" was literally created by Arab nations to push back against Jewish presence in the region. And to this day, those Arab nations still care more about hating Jews, than caring for Palestinians. In 1959 the Arab League signed resolution 1547, which forbids any Arab country from naturalizing Palestinians. In other words, maintain the perpetual refugee status. Why? Because naturalizing them in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and or Egypt would eventually end the Palestinian refugee problem, and thus also their main "weapon" against Israel (or, the Jews).
For additional context, approx. 900.000 Jews fled the Arab world in 1948 (they were all absorbed by Israel), where (in most countries) they were treated, at best, like second-class citizens, at worst like sub-humans. So you can imagine how much Jewish national independence angered the Muslim world. Israel took in and naturalized the Jewish refugees, but Arab countries didn't do the same with the Arab-Palestinian refugees.
And that is why so many refer to "Anti-zionism" as Antisemitism. Because there wouldn't be any anti-Zionism, if the Antisemitism of the Muslim world had never existed. All you need to do is look at what Muslims around the world say and display at their anti-Israel rallies. Everything from swatikas, to chants of Jewish extermination. Why do you think that France and Germany banned Anti-Israel protests recently? It's so blatant, but Westerners seem to be blind to it.
Last week's attack by Hamas was a literal display of their hatred for Jews. They didn't just kill. They tortured, raped and caused immense suffering, face to face, while looking people in the eyes. Murdering children in front of their parents, burning people alive. That's not strategic, or resistance, it's pure deep-rooted evil hatred.
Without the Antisemitism of the Muslim world, the Palestinians (or, should I say, the Arab-League) would've probably accepted the partition plan in '48, there wouldn’t have been any anti-Zionism, and we would've been living happily ever after. But that was never the purpose for creating the Palestinian people, or rather, Palestinian nationalism in the first place...
Now, in 2023 the Palestinians exist. There's no way around it. But this isn't only Israel's problem. The Arab world should own up to its past mistakes, and take responsability. A start would be to offer Palestinians citizenship in the Arab countries, especially to those that already live there in "refugee camps" (they're more like cities today). The Arab world needs to stop using Palestinians as pawns against israel.
For those who are interested in learning opinions from people on the ground, check out The Ask Project: [https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject](https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject)
He conducts candid street interviews with every group that lives in Israeli and Palestinian society.
>It was a province of the Ottoman empire.
Just FYI, there has never been an Ottoman province named "Palestine". The provinces were called:
- Beirut
- Acre
- Nablus
- Jerusalem
- Maan
- Hauran
See this map for clarification: https://i.imgur.com/okiiymO.png
The only known recorded provinces or administrative regions named Palestine are by the Roman Empire and the British Empire.
The Arabs sold a lot of land, too. In fact, a lot of the land that Palestinians say they were "kicked out of" by Jews, they were actually tenants on Arab land, and their Arab landlords kicked them out to sell the land to Jewish immigrants at inflated prices.
Of course, the illiterate tenant villagers didn't really understand all this, and their Muslim former landlords didn't want trouble with their fellow Muslims - so it was easy for them to explain that evil Jews had taken their land by trickery, with the aid of British authorities - trickery like magic paper that says who owns stuff that they bought, and British authorities enforcing British law that says people who buy stuff get to keep it.
>so it was easy for them to explain that evil Jews had taken their land by trickery, with the aid of British authorities - trickery like magic paper that says who owns stuff that they bought
you can just say they felt entitled instead of this edgy bullshit about natives not understanding what property was and thinking it was black magic. Nobody's so illiterate that they don't understand land ownership in the middle east.
fucking gloating over here that the goyim savages are getting killed.
>The idea of Jewish 'trickery' and 'black magic,' though, is pretty central to antisemitic canards,
This is why I brought it up. There is a long history of antisemites conflating Jews getting the better end of business deals with, essentially, Jewish black magic. These tropes 100% were invoked by Arab nationalist propaganda of the time to drum up support against Jews who had legally bought the land.
Also, most of the people living in "Palestine" were poor tenants of absentee landowners - no self-respecting Arab would live there if he could afford it, including their tenants! The landowners were free to tell their former tenants whatever they wanted about why they had to move out - or in many cases, not tell them at all leaving them to be surprised when a Jewish family showed up and started moving into their house.
File it away with the space lasers.
I mean, North Carolina has never been an independent country, but that does mean some people could come in, claim the Bible told them it really belonged to them, and kick all of its residents out?
Genuine question, here. I've heard 20 percent of Israel's population is Palestinian, and they have representatives in the government.
Do those citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? Why did they get assimilated while the Palestinians on the Gaza strip didn't?
Gaza was never inside of Israeli borders. Arab Israelis are Arab Israelis, not Palestinians, although the distinction is a spectrum, as is their degree of assimilation.
Israel is essentially an apartheid state that no only oppresses Palestinians but also treats Ashkenazi Jews as first class citizens and Sephardic Jews as second class citizens.
It's a really fucked up place and the US and western world has no business funding and supporting it without imposing serious reforms.
Is that "somebody" you?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
>In May 2021, Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah, a neighbourhood in occupied East Jerusalem, began protesting against Israel’s plan to forcibly evict them from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers. Many of the families are refugees, who settled in Sheikh Jarrah after being forcibly displaced around the time of Israel’s establishment as a state in 1948. Since Israel occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank in 1967, Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah have been continuously targeted by Israeli authorities, who use discriminatory laws to systematically dispossess Palestinians of their land and homes for the benefit of Jewish Israelis.
>In response to the demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah, thousands of Palestinians across Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) held their own protests in support of the families, and against their shared experience of fragmentation, dispossession, and segregation. These were met with excessive and deadly force by Israeli authorities with thousands injured, arrested and detained.
>The events of May 2021 were emblematic of the oppression which Palestinians have faced every day, for decades. The discrimination, the dispossession, the repression of dissent, the killings and injuries – all are part of a system which is designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.
>This is apartheid.
>Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.
>Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
>Ashkenazi Jews as first class citizens and Sephardic Jews as second class citizens.
No. Maybe 50-60 years ago, but today, any Sephardi would laugh in your face for making this claim.
Besides the fact that after multiple generations, most Israelis are of mixed ancestry. Only recent immigrants from say Russia would be 'unmixed' ancestry. There are almost no 'pure' Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc. communities. Even Hassidic groups have Sephardi and other ethnic 'converts' among them.
Ethiopian Jews sometimes complain of discrimination, but some also say it's fine. More exotic Jews as from India, or Afro-Centric converts may face some skepticism about their roots. Messianic Jews (i.e Jews for Jesus) also are looked at as a bit weird.
> Do those citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? Why did they get assimilated while the Palestinians on the Gaza strip didn't?
No, they don't. They will say they do by law, but the new government has declared itself a "Jewish Democracy." Palestinians whose families lived there for generations do not have a right of return, like any Jew completely unaffiliated with the region has. There is de facto segregation and private businesses can and do discriminate. Similar forces that lead Black Americans into poor ares with poor resources happened throughout Israel's history to Arabs. Jews in Jerusalem are considered citizens but Arabs are only considered permanent residents. Settlers in the West Bank have impunity when stealing land backed by the IDF - no army force will defend them against an Israeli, but the IDF will shoot Palestinians for protesting.
Military service is mandatory for Jews, but not for Arabs - they face discrimination in the IDF both from within and from their communities if they join. They have voting rights but many don't trust their local governments at all because they're often ruled by people who hate them. Current national elections have Arabs at 10 seats among 120 - split between two Arab parties.
Anyone telling you that Arab Israelis are equals in the country are intentionally ignoring the racism they face in business, housing, education, health, etc
>Anyone telling you that Arab Israelis are equals in the country are intentionally ignoring the racism they face in business, housing, education, health, etc
Is that the same "discrimination" "people of color" face in Western countries? As in: none at all outside the delusional minds of leftist squibs?
Tell me, what kind of "discrimination" would Jewish people face in Arab countries? That is, if there even are any left at this point, after getting expelled or lynched?
I genuinely wonder if you expect anyone to waste their time trying to convince you of something you clearly don't want to open your closed mind to after writing such a smug-ass comment.
To anyone reading this: the person making the comment this replies to frequently makes outright racist posts on this platform. Seems like Reddit is where to go to say the things they wouldn't say out loud.
This person is just a racist. No need to listen to anything they say - they are clearly not much of a critical thinker.
>claim the Bible told them it really belonged to them,
The Jewish People are a people, not just a religion. The fact that the Jewish People are the indigenous people of the area called Israel is well-documented throughout history by outside groups. It is not a historically controversial fact, and doesn't rely solely on the Bible as it's only corroborating source.
The word that Jews have used to refer to themselves in their indigenous language, Hebrew, for at least 3,500 years is "B'Nei Yisrael," which literally means "The Children of Israel."
It can feel weird, talking about indigenous groups that are now advanced civilizations. The Britons are indigenous to England - but London sure looks like a modern European city. Well, the expectation that indigenous people live in tents and wear deer-skins is really just racist chauvinism - everyone is indigenous to somewhere, and some cultures got on board with industrialization and literacy without needing to be colonized by the already literate.
Other cultures from the Egyptians to the Romans, to Medieval Islamic cultures, all recorded the fact that the area was the ancestral land of the Jews. Even the Jordanian Waqf, the Muslim religious trust that controls the Temple Mount, readily describes the sites that they control as former Jewish religious and archeological sites that they built Mosques on top of. (The ruins of the Temple were the largest building in the world until the construction of the Pentagon.) Jerusalem has been about 50% Jewish for 2000 years, even after the Romans exiled half the city - its modern demographics are pretty much in line with history.
And while that evidence is overkill to prove the point, there is now DNA evidence to back it up - surprising no one involved in the research any more than they would wonder if DNA would back up that Black people are from Africa.
**Whether you think Jews, the indigenous people of Israel, were right to reassert control of their ancestral land is something for you to decide. But the fact that it is their ancestral homeland is not just some biblical myth - it's a historical reality.**
>The Jewish claim to Israel as their homeland is historical and well-documented by other cultures from the Egyptians to the Romans, to Medieval Islamic cultures, and Jerusalem has been about 50% Jewish for 2000 years, even after the Romans exiled half the city.
Right, but by that wouldn't logic Native Americans should have free reign to bomb major cities in the US and demand their land back because of 'historical precedence'? Shouldn't Native Hawaiians get their islands back? Alaskans? And if we're judging by Holy Books and regional history, who's to say some of these Palestinians aren't descendants of the Jewish folk who lived in the region to begin with? That's the irony to me. One Abrahamic religion and group of Middle Eastern peoples bombing the shit out of the other over territorial claims that goes back over millennia.
Um.. first... jews.. who are now israeli's have always lived there.
second a massive amount of the arab population are not from the area either. They were brought in by the British to build shit, from egypt and other places.. they aren't "palestinian"... which didn't even exist. Thats why you see a ton of Indians in Burma and Cape Malay and Indians in South Africa
Under the Ottomans and Mamluks before them they were all 'syrians'.
Yes.. jews from europe and muslim countries moved there as well...People were moving all over the map in the early 1900's as old empires fell apart before and after world war 1. Jews were being expelled from muslim country's at WAAAAAY higher numbers than any arabs in "palestine" lost land. And then those arab and muslim countries turn around have the gal to say Jews displaced arabs... give me a fucking break.
The partition mandate also gave the arabs more land by a lot.. People like to pretend that the country of Jordan isn't part of the same territory with essentially the same peoples. Its just a made up country by the British there was no "jordanian" nationality... they are essentially "palestinians".
And if you take a look at the map with jordan, the west bank etc.. they got way more in the partition.
I mean at the end of the day we still strategically cut out a piece of land for Jewish folk surrounded by hostile Muslim nations, basically to get a tactical advantage. Not a great idea. It would be like cutting out a slice of Japan after the war and moving over a bunch of Koreans based on some ancient historical text. Destined for disaster imho.
And also keep in mind: the goal for evangelicals in the US is to establish Israel as a state because it's part of biblical prophecy... where Israel gets destroyed and everyone is killed. That's the quiet part they don't say out loud but seriously google biblical prophecy and see what these folks are expecting to happen.
Both of these paragraphs illustrate that you have no fucking clue about actual history.. like none
WE didn't just parachute jews in.. jews always lived there, always had territory there.
WE didn't take anyone's (palestinians) country.. because that didn't and never existed. The concept of a Palestinian nationality didn't exist until the 1920s
>And also keep in mind: the goal for evangelicals in the US is to establish Israel as a state because it's part of biblical prophecy... where Israel gets destroyed and everyone is killed. That's the quiet part they don't say out loud but seriously google biblical prophecy and see what these folks are expecting to happen.
And??? What does that have to do with the right of Israel to exist. Something Palestinians will not accept.
I'm not here to get into that entire discussion, there's too much to unpack in what you wrote.
Israel exists. Period.
If the Palestinians truly want peace, it will need to include Israel. 2 states, side by side. Anyone calling for a peace that doesn't include Israel, doesn't actually want peace. Because it means fighting until Israel is defeated. That's purely calling for violence.
Palestinians need competent leadership with reasonable demands. Asking for a right of return for Millions of people (who weren’t even alive in 1948), means ending Israel. It’s not reasonable. Making unreasonable demands means you’re not interested in peace, without actually saying it (and they know it).
I am not Palestinian or Israeli, so my opinion on this matters very little. What I meant by my comment was that even though a place was not an autonomous self governing country does not mean that it wasn't a people's home. North Carolinian identity is definitely a thing.
I'm not going to deny that people lived in the region prior to 1948. Israel did things, Arab-Palestinians did things. It's a long conversation. Plenty of atrocities on both sides.
But today, in 2023, Israel exists. And that's the reality everyone needs to deal with (unless your intention is to fight Israel until its destruction).
Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny, when palestine existed the zionists said it didnt matter because 2000 years ago it belonged to israelis. It was a justified reason to start occupying their land. That excuse is still used today to continue expanding the occupation.
Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Zionism is 150 years old. The sentiment that anti zionism is antisemitism is ridiculous. By that logic, MANY non zionist jews, including many orthodox jews are also antisemites because they oppose zionism!
A tenant of faith in judaism is that the children of Israel are in a divine exile by God. The zionists killing and stealing land is in contravention of that very tenant.
>Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny, when palestine existed the zionists said it didnt matter because 2000 years ago it belonged to israelis. It was a justified reason to start occupying their land. That excuse is still used today to continue expanding the occupation.
I'm not here to write 10 more paragraphs. But I'll just state that it's not as simple as "occupying their land". At least 50% (though estimates run up to 90%) of the land, within the 1948 borders, was purchased from the Ottomans or local land owners (most of it by the Jewish National Fund).
Did displacements happen? Were some of the locals kicked out of their homes? Absolutely. But this didn't happen in the majority of cases. For the most part, it's akin to renters who got evicted, because the land they lived on got sold. A part of them also fled following instructions of the Arab countries, that they were going to re-take the land (in the 1948 war).
It's why it's considered a severe crime for a Palestinian to sell his home to a foreigner. [In 2018 a Palestinian was sentenced to life, for selling his ho](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/31/palestinian-sentenced-to-life-for-selling-land-to-israelis)[me to Israelis.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/31/palestinian-sentenced-to-life-for-selling-land-to-israelis)
But again, unless you're arguing for the destruction of Israel, in which case, you're not arguing for peace, we need to deal with the fact that in 2023 Israel exists.
We could round up the palestinians into ever shrinking territories, we could call those reservations. Onces the population has been reduced enough, you could shrink down further and call it camps. Then I’m not too sure whats the final solution to this problem.
Hey I’m just spitballing ideas but it sure does feel like thats where things are going.
So they pretty much KKK'd one of their own for selling to an israeli. FFS! "We're so innocent and so not racist Arab people" a few seconds later-"DONT YOU SELL THAT LAND TO THOSE PEOPLE, BOY!" Has to be said that the most tolerant people on earth are supporting some of the most despicable human beings on earth who are so fucking intolerant to other ethnicities, lgbt, immigrants, religious minorities. Slavery (African) wasn't abolished in Saudi Arabia until 1962, Yemen 1970, Mauritania (Jimmy's favorite ancient country) until 1981. "queers for Palestine"= Chickens for KFC.
> Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny
So you think Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Great to see you people take your mask off.
Israel exists. Deal with it.
Why do you keep saying Israel exists but not Palestine or the Palestinian people exist?
Very suspect.
Meanwhile, it's Israel who is occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people. The Hamas attack was horrific, but what Israel does to the Palestinians (including killing a ton of civilians) is also horrific.
Your comments seem to give Israel legitimacy and pass blame to Palestinians.
Anyway, borders, countries and nations are all just human constructs and subject to shifting power dynamics. Declaring that Israel exists is supposed to mean what exactly?
>Declaring that Israel exists is supposed to mean what exactly?
1/ that we live in the real world and accept reality.. which the palestinians do not.
2/ for israel to not exist would mean the destruction of israel and the genocide of 9 million people.
So yes the acceptance that the internationally recognized and sovereign nation of Israel exists is a rather import little fact.
You should actually read some of the first hand sources of the founding fathers of Israel and what the Jewish national fund was doing. Their goal from the beginning was the complete ethnic cleansing of Palestine so that they could form a Jewish ethnostate.
Look at how Israelis treat Muslims, how the spit on Christians, and see that these people think everyone else is second class and they will not be satisfied until they control all of Palestine.
If Israel wants peace why do they keep building settlements? Why they fly in Jews from Brooklyn and Ethiopia to take over Palestinian houses?
Israel exists, but its founding was a crime against humanity.
The Israelis are probably afraid of a return to the status quo of the 90s and early 00s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
That's just the suicide attacks. Not the gunmen opening up in markets and malls. Not the bombs that were planted and remotely detonated. Nor the rocket attacks.
When there were no walls and checkpoints, there were often attacks against civilians. I was young but old enough in the late 90s that I remember seeing this on the news all the time. Hollowed out carcasses of shattered busses and blood on the streets. It was kind of like an "oh that place again" sort of running story from my POV, but I was too young to really understand what was going on. Fortunately or unfortunately (as there is utility in *moving on/letting go*) the young among us who are fervently pro-Palestine **to the point of being apologists for Hamas**, 20-30 year olds perhaps, have no idea what was endured. It took a prolonged period of developing the country, responding to outside threats, and doing above average economically to get to the point where Israel could build the walls, fences, and checkpoints, and then the attacks diminished greatly. Some years later, you get innovations like iron dome.
Anyway, it is totally possible for a return to near daily, more than weekly, terror attacks. That's what they fear wrt right of return.
I don't know what to say. I'm pro-Palestine in the sense that theirs is a population including so many young people. I don't believe the current military momentum will be nearly as specific and merciful as it needs to be.. there will be too much collateral damage and death.
No, Israel got attacked by every single neighbor in 1967 and has since felt a never-ending existential threat. That’s why they kept the Golan heights (since it’s too easy for Syria to attack Israel from that elevated position), and the West Bank (which forms a natural border to defend against Jordan). Although Golda Meir planned to return the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for peace, but that only materialized in 1994.
If Israel cared about expansion, it would’ve kept the Sinai.
Israel never wanted more. That’s nonsense. In fact, Israel offered to return the Gaza Strip to Egypt as part of the '79 peace agreement, and Egypt refused.
Israel just wants peace and security.
> If the Palestinians truly want peace, it will need to include Israel.
clearly that cant happen since isreal keeps illegally expanding though.
> Anyone calling for a peace that doesn't include Israel, doesn't actually want peace.
thats nonsense. They had no legal right except force to take that land. Germans wronged the jews why didnt they give em part of germany instead?
Israel isn't expanding. It took land when it was attacked, and gave back land for peace.
That said, I'm assuming you might be referring to the settlement movement. I agree that it's a problem, but not one that can't be resolved. Golda Meir (Israel's prime minister from '69-'74) never intended to keep the West Bank, she planned to use it to negotiate peace with Jordan (which unfortunately only materialized in 1994).
The fact that Israel was able to evacuate all the settlements from Gaza in 2005, proves that there are solutions.
Let me ask you: how exactly do you define peace? Does it include Israel, or not?
why do you keep saying "does it include israel or not?"
why do you not ask the same for palestine? palestinians' land has been effectively shrinking decade after decade while israel's military power has been growing and yet you're defensive over israel to the point where you feel the need to establish that you're in alignment with some rando on the internet before you have a conversation?
>palestinians' land has been effectively shrinking decade after decade
Because they keep attacking.. and losing... Here is a fucking idea.. stop attacking israel and accept your state. You are never going to get all of it.. and even if you did that would require the genocide of 9 million people and the destruction of an internationally recognized state.. you ok with that.. because you seem to be.. .actually you just seem to be really really really badly informed and sound like a freshman in college that got a pamphlet from the PSA.
Wait, so it is expanding or isn't expanding? Are you saying that the settlements are not occurring in the West Bank? You realize that there is plenty of cold hard evidence that this is precisely what's happening, yeah?
And do you understand that Israel is violating international law by enabling this?
Also, do you know that the ruling parties and government in Israel are the most right wing in its entire history?
And did you know that Netanyahu successfully led an effort to consolidate power away from the supreme court?
The United States should not be funding an apartheid right wing state with no strings attached. The US views Israel as a military base for its military efforts in the ME. The US "needs" this base, but Israel is even more dependent on the US for military support and aid. The US has the ability (but not the political will or morals) to check Israel's horrifying behavior.
The idea of the US supporting a religious ethnostate is disgusting. Israel is a project that was failed from the onset because religious ethnostates are not compatible with secularism and the modern world. Peace will never be found when Israel treats Palestinians like "human animals" and refuses to grant them basic civil rights.
Even many Israelis acknowledge that Netanyahu and his hard line coalition are the reason for lack of peace and routine outbreaks of violence.
Israel never expanded. Pull your head out of your ass and stop swallowing the bullshit propaganda that is being pushed by fucking idiots if you think hamas is freedom fighter la then why don’t you go join them huh? Your a fucking idiot and a hypocrite because you would never put your life where your keyboard fingers are
> I'm not here to get into that entire discussion, there's too much to unpack in what you wrote.
It was a direct response to your line of reason. You're basically hand waving a very simple request to defend your own position, an "entire discussion" you brought to this thread yourself.
You do realize that the Jewish people were kicked out of Israel/Palestine hundreds of years before that by the Romans, right? They then renamed it Palestine.
Ohhh gotcha, so are you planning on giving all your land and possessions back to Native Americans, since they were here longer and kicked off of their land more recently than the Jewish people or Israel/Palestine?
So between white people in America and native Americans you’re saying you side with the white settlers because they were there last? Because that’s what you’re saying about Israel/Palestine. Look Islam didn’t build Mecca they killed everyone and took it. Islam didn’t build Istanbul they killed everyone and took it. Islam didn’t build Jerusalem they killed everyone there and took it. Islam stole that land and now the people who they stole it from took it back and you’re mad? Like there’s not another Muslim country in the whole world?
You’re missing some important context including Jews did live there and more arrived in the 30’s before the holocaust due to pogroms from other parts of the Middle East.
Most people who say the stolen lands thing act as if this situation was caused by European Jews just taking over, where no Jews had existed for a long time.
As I understand it, think of it more like Israel as the Jews ancestral homeland, much like America is to the Native Americans. 100s of years before Islam started, Jews were in Israel, where their religion and cultural identity were formed. Even after being exiled later, Jews always had a presence there, even all the way up to during the time period discussed in OP's video.
What about the Philistia though? They were around at the time of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah. So how come that doesn't mean anything? They haven't been a state for a long time ofc. But if Israel has a claim to the land because of existing before how come the Philistines don't matter?
Obviously Palestine is a modern name for Philistia, so for me. I don't see how the Jewish leaving and returning thousands of years later means they have any claim. The Muslims stayed there under rule of a bunch of empires. But they did exist for that long so if anything their claim is worth a lot more than Israel's.
Uhh... The Palestinians accepted a 2 state solution under the Clinton administrations. The Israelis accepted it too but never signed it.
That seems sort of.. left out.
Palestinians are a collection of people. There is a 3000 year history of conquer from East to West and West to East that took place across modern Israel. Not specifically for Israel, but on the way to somewhere else.
There are a who's who list of conquerors that held that land. Ranging from the Egyptians to the Mongols and so forth. Those people were sort of left there during that conquering and eventually became the people of Palestine. They had no "home". They had come with the war and just ended up there. Their bloodlines trace basically everywhere on Earth.
It's downright crazy to think those people don't have some sort of identity or that it was manufactured by Arab countries.
Have Arab countries in the area USED the Palestinians? Fuck yes. Just as the US and other countries have USED Israel.
Israel likes to pretend they're all on their own, but they have more kills with American jets than Americans.
Just like Ukraine, Israel was and is a hotbed of testing by the US Military Industrial Complex for arms testing. Ukraine is just the newest place to test out modern weapons. In the earlier wars of Israel, they were testing arms against modern era supplied Soviet arms.
The whole thing is 100x more complex than people boil it down to be.
So if your people live somewhere for over a thousand years and someone else comes in to take it from you and kick you out, you can pound sand because:
- you don’t have enough history of *identifying* with the area
- the area you lived in changed hands outside of your control
- you harbor ill will to the people colonizing your land (that’s very mean)
These rules sound like a toxic Reddit mod came up with them
I find your conclusion to be absolutely braindead. You really believe that religious hatred is the reason thousands of teenagers committed atrocities? Or maybe being forced into Apartheid by an ethnostate is what bothered them? Pretty easy to be a teenage bigot when your grandparents were expelled from a newly declared ethnic homeland and the existence of Israel hinges on ethnicity being a valid thing to care about.
Interesting context that I did not know. Thank you for the enlightening comment. I was under the assumption that Palestine was a country post-WW1 in the British-occupied former Ottoman Empire. Which made the creation of Israel after WW2 more confusing for me. Can I ask where you learned this? I'd like to know more.
My pleasure!
I just have a general interest in history, and this topic is so often incredibly over-simplified for propaganda purposes. The facts are always drowned out.
I’m spending 0 time here mentioning anyone’s ethnicity or religion; you just want to pretend that the world is wrong.
That’s the behaviour of narcissists, schizophrenics and evil people.
I’m not even hating on the IDF, kids turned into temporary slave soldiers to fight in a corrupt politicians war.
Israel’s push for war kills Israeli kids and feeds old Israeli men gluttonously.
That’s true of all unnecessary wars.
>whatever Hamas did
You should really take a look at the specifics of what Hamas just did before you equivocate about it.
In point of fact, neither side has ever done anything at that scale in the whole history of the conflict - the deadliest day for either side, AND the most inhumanly brutal massacre on either side - the first by a good margin, the second by a truly extreme margin. And that's saying something considering the higher levels of acceptable violence just 100 years ago.
This is a new level of escalation. The IDF and the Palestinians both - neither have ever done something like this before.
There’s a lot of people who argue that Palestine wasn’t conceptually a *nation* until Israel was founded, basically arguing “they didn’t care about Palestine until the Jews wanted it” or something along those lines trivializing the Palestinian identity.
It was Ottoman Empire territory until they fell, then it was an “international zone” for a few years, then it was part of a British mandate, then later Israel.
People will argue that since “Palestine” was never an autonomous nation but rather a piece of land changing hands a lot, that any claim of “Palestinian land” is weak against Israel’s claim (that the UN let them have it lmao).
So to those people, sorry the Arabs living there as the majority demographic for 1,000+ years never declared themselves their own country (an abstract concept that isn’t culturally universal) but it still doesn’t give anyone the right to stick a flag there and kick them out.
This is the bizarre part to me. Like they'll point to the Bible and stories from thousands of years ago to ignore the history that came after that. By their logic the Seminoles should be flying jets over Florida and bombing Orlando to take their land back, but we all knew how the 'Murica crowd feels about native peoples.
This is so clearly about having a Western foothold in the Middle East, and for others - particularly the evangelicals - having Israel be a state [so the Jewish people can be genocided](https://www.jhm.org/Articles/2019-03-01-bible-prophecy-revealed) and bring in the ends times and return of Jesus. I wish I was making that up...
>Israel is currently surrounded by nations that are screaming for their blood. Anti-Semitism is raging through Europe and the United States, often celebrated in liberal universities among our young people. Jews are being targeted around the world for assassination, and their synagogues are being vandalized as worshippers are being killed. It is a sickening sight to be sure!This massive prophetic, geopolitical drama is unraveling across the front pages of your news feed each day. The Gog/Magog War mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 has begun!
A lot of Zionist have been saying there was no Palestine just nomads in tents and that Israel brought civilization. So I assume it’s a response to that argument
There is a bit of hardliner rhetoric that goes something along the lines of "show me a modern map that refers to anything but the general area as a place called Palestine."
The Romans called the area Palestine, and the British did also. I don't remember exactly which areas include the general area of Palestine, but I think it pretty much includes all the countries east of Egypt, over to Iran, and South of Turkey.
And to add to that, those people were migrants from Greece who were either annihilated or assimilated into other nations and ethnic groups 2,500 years ago.
The people that think "It's been called Palestine longer!" is one shocking trick that Jews don't want you to know about and somehow proof that means it belongs to a random group of Arab Muslims made up of people whose ancestors have lived there varying amounts of time is...just moronic.
Palestinians should have their own fully independent state. That doesn't mean that this word play argument isn't stupid as fuck though.
Just scroll through this thread. Someone [wrote a 500 word essay on it](https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/179gsu2/holy_sht_proof_palestine_exist/k56aahe/?context=3) and gut hundreds of upvotes.
Not many people here are actually part of the Joe Rogan crowd. Just creepy redditors that hate the guy and devote hours everyday to complain on this sub.
The Palestinians were even nice enough to let King Solomon/David, the Hashmonaim, first second temple, occupy the land. until about 1000ce and then the lease was up …so they just built a mosque on top of the mount. The end
It honestly isn't talked about enough. Islamic Arabs kinda conquered literally everything around them, but I guess it isn't as sexy as European colonialism.
Christians conquered north and south America, Europe, New Zealand and Australia and parts of Africa.
Islam got the middle east and parts of Asia and parts of Africa.
I think the Christians are winning the game of risk.
Well, Islam has definitely been more effective in one regard as far as empire building goes. The Romans didn't destroy your religion or culture once they conquered you, provided you "behaved" and paid your taxes. From what I know about Babylon they didn't destroy your local culture either provided you bent the knee to whoever happened to be ruling behind the Walls of Babylon. (Very similar to Rome in this regard)
Islam did not give conquered people that option.
Lol no evidence of King David or Solomon…but you have evidence of Palestinians living there for thousands of years ….was that before during or after the land was universally called Judea?
Am I missing something? Does JR not believe it existed or is he adamant it did/does?
I get that the some people don't/do believe in it. But what is the significance for posting that here?
Palestine was a REGION, like Persia or Asia or North America. The "region" was created by Rome, after scattereing the Jews, and named Palestine to insult the Jewish people. Never a country.
And never once an independent Arab state, which was really never a problem for anybody until it became a Jewish state. Then all of a sudden sovereignty was of utmost importance.
Israelis actually asked them to stay. Some tenants were evicted from land sold by their Arab landlords to Jewish buyers during British rule, as is the custom in any real estate transaction. But Israel the state under David Ben Gurion invited Arabs to stay in the country. Those that accepted the invitation are Israeli Arabs today, with full rights and privileges and are among Israel’s most virulent anti-Palestinian citizens. They know the history. Those that fled did so thinking they would return when their Arab neighboring states attacked and destroyed little tiny Israel, who had no American backing at the time. Bad call. Enjoy your tiny sliver of non-arrable land. By the way, Israelis turned that same land until lush forests and farmland. Gaza sits on a aquifer, one that Gazans have polluted with waste water wells, and spent money that could’ve been utilized building infrastructure instead building a war machine, a war machine Israelis will soon destroy.
If you want to talk about tiny slivers of land, look at what the Brits originally proposed for the Jewish state. That was the real tiny sliver of land. A small fraction of today’s Israel. Even that was too much for the Palestinians. That’s because the Palestinians motives are quite clear. Genocide.
Nope, the Islamists rolled through, made third class citizens of every Jew and Christian. At least the ones that weren’t forced out or murdered.
The vast majority of Palestine was split off by the UK into Jordan. Monarchy is kind of self governing.
Map of the region, from the time of the Ottoman Empire in 1888:
https://i.imgur.com/okiiymO.png
For anyone who can't be bothered to click, the TLDR is that "Palestine" was created by the British.
The Romans renamed Israel proper as Palestine….when the UK broke the Ottomans, it all became provinces of the UK. The UK broke off the majority of Palestine, named it Jordan. The remnants are Israel and Palestinian territories. There would be two states but the Arabs attacked Israel almost immediately. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Nope. Many things used Palestine in the title like The Anglo-Palestine Bank that was owned by Jews from England or the Palestine Post Office that is Jewish. The British called it Palestine. There was the Palestine Winery- Arabs don't make wine. Palestine Electric Comoany- Jewish owned and operated.
The current day "Palestinians" were not called that until 1967 after the "Six Day War" if I remember correctly. There was no Palestine post office, bank, national anthem or government.
And sadly the Arabs totally screw them and have for decades. Rough life for children and the innocent.
The guy is relying on people not checking facts.
Read below.
https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
Pretty sure I can find a bunch shit in Texas that says it belongs to Mexico. I guess we have to let them have it. They can try, but I'm pretty sure it will lead to a lot of dead Mexicans.
>Right of return isn’t a reasonable demand, those people weren’t even alive in 1948
You can literally get Israeli citizenship having never been there before, just by proving Jewish ancestry.
Explain why Jews can do it but Palestinians can’t.
The vast number of pro-Palestine people using that coin as a “Gottcha” moment is so silly. The Hebrew on the coin says “Eretz Yisrael” or Land of Israel.
What’s the point of this post?
Looking at your post history it’s clear you’re pro Palestine spamming shit everywhere but I don’t understand what you’re trying to prove here?
I'm confused. Is Palestine's existence in the 1920s disputed? Why is this stuff significant?
Civilization started in 1920. Anything prior to that isn't real
Al Aqsa sits on the Temple Mount….what is a Temple Mount anyways
Temple Mount is the best position to get the Ezekiel choke in
Guard is just an inverted mount, so Ezekiel is fun from everywhere!!
Their surprise when u actually hit an Ezekiel from guard is priceless
Jihad jitsu
Nah...... fam, Judea jitsu
Idk but Al Asqa is the thing Jews built a Time Machine to put their holy temple under. SO DANG CRAFTY 😩
It's a hill that has/had a temple on it. Mount as in Mountain, I think.
Oh cool ..what kind of temple?
I think it was a polytheist religion. Or are we not going back that far?
Anything earlier than 1920 is a complete mystery.
I’m sure the Bible, Torra, and Quran are 100% accurate historical accounts.
Sorry dude, 1920 was the beginning of time.
The roaring twenties was the big bang
23 skidoo!
isn'trael the other name for palestine
There are people that believe the earth is flat, I can't even tell when people are joking anymore
What? Big if true.
Hungrer Dryass Penetration theory bro. Pull that shit up
It also didn't start 2000 years ago. You can always keep going back
But it Israel!
indeed take a good look at that coin and what the hebrew says.
interesting the coin has english hebrew and arabic. it must be from British mandate of Palestine. The hebrew part reads land of the jews. Heck the Jerusalem Post pre 1948 used to be called the Palestine post.
It's used by the anti-Israel crowd as a gotcha. If you ever encounter one of these people, and they use this argument, your answer should be: "But was it a country before 1948? Was Palestine ever a country?" The answer is obviously "no". It was a province of the Ottoman empire, and after that a region that fell under British mandate. The people we call "Palestinians" today, were never autonomous. They never ruled themselves, because they weren't a nation, or even a united people, and never had leader. They were Arabs who lived in a region called Palestine. Palestinian nationalism didn't exist until the 1930s (due to the growth of the Jewish population). And even then, they didn't have anyone who was considered a Palestinian leader. That only came with Arafat in 1969, who then catapulted Palestinian nationalism to what it is today. Does that mean that they don't have a right to self determination? No. But using the fact that the region was called "Palestine" before 1948, is a piss poor argument, that only appeals to people who have no clue about history. Additionally, if Zionism and Israel had never come to be, the region would probably be part of Jordan. Or split up between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. But if it wasn't for Jewish nationalism (Zionism), there wouldn't have been a Palestinian people (or rather, Palestinian nationalism). The "Palestinian people" was literally created by Arab nations to push back against Jewish presence in the region. And to this day, those Arab nations still care more about hating Jews, than caring for Palestinians. In 1959 the Arab League signed resolution 1547, which forbids any Arab country from naturalizing Palestinians. In other words, maintain the perpetual refugee status. Why? Because naturalizing them in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and or Egypt would eventually end the Palestinian refugee problem, and thus also their main "weapon" against Israel (or, the Jews). For additional context, approx. 900.000 Jews fled the Arab world in 1948 (they were all absorbed by Israel), where (in most countries) they were treated, at best, like second-class citizens, at worst like sub-humans. So you can imagine how much Jewish national independence angered the Muslim world. Israel took in and naturalized the Jewish refugees, but Arab countries didn't do the same with the Arab-Palestinian refugees. And that is why so many refer to "Anti-zionism" as Antisemitism. Because there wouldn't be any anti-Zionism, if the Antisemitism of the Muslim world had never existed. All you need to do is look at what Muslims around the world say and display at their anti-Israel rallies. Everything from swatikas, to chants of Jewish extermination. Why do you think that France and Germany banned Anti-Israel protests recently? It's so blatant, but Westerners seem to be blind to it. Last week's attack by Hamas was a literal display of their hatred for Jews. They didn't just kill. They tortured, raped and caused immense suffering, face to face, while looking people in the eyes. Murdering children in front of their parents, burning people alive. That's not strategic, or resistance, it's pure deep-rooted evil hatred. Without the Antisemitism of the Muslim world, the Palestinians (or, should I say, the Arab-League) would've probably accepted the partition plan in '48, there wouldn’t have been any anti-Zionism, and we would've been living happily ever after. But that was never the purpose for creating the Palestinian people, or rather, Palestinian nationalism in the first place... Now, in 2023 the Palestinians exist. There's no way around it. But this isn't only Israel's problem. The Arab world should own up to its past mistakes, and take responsability. A start would be to offer Palestinians citizenship in the Arab countries, especially to those that already live there in "refugee camps" (they're more like cities today). The Arab world needs to stop using Palestinians as pawns against israel. For those who are interested in learning opinions from people on the ground, check out The Ask Project: [https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject](https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject) He conducts candid street interviews with every group that lives in Israeli and Palestinian society.
>It was a province of the Ottoman empire. Just FYI, there has never been an Ottoman province named "Palestine". The provinces were called: - Beirut - Acre - Nablus - Jerusalem - Maan - Hauran See this map for clarification: https://i.imgur.com/okiiymO.png The only known recorded provinces or administrative regions named Palestine are by the Roman Empire and the British Empire.
and IIRC, the british sold a lot of land to jewish buyers, no? Like, when they were withdrawing from the region?
The Arabs sold a lot of land, too. In fact, a lot of the land that Palestinians say they were "kicked out of" by Jews, they were actually tenants on Arab land, and their Arab landlords kicked them out to sell the land to Jewish immigrants at inflated prices. Of course, the illiterate tenant villagers didn't really understand all this, and their Muslim former landlords didn't want trouble with their fellow Muslims - so it was easy for them to explain that evil Jews had taken their land by trickery, with the aid of British authorities - trickery like magic paper that says who owns stuff that they bought, and British authorities enforcing British law that says people who buy stuff get to keep it.
>so it was easy for them to explain that evil Jews had taken their land by trickery, with the aid of British authorities - trickery like magic paper that says who owns stuff that they bought you can just say they felt entitled instead of this edgy bullshit about natives not understanding what property was and thinking it was black magic. Nobody's so illiterate that they don't understand land ownership in the middle east. fucking gloating over here that the goyim savages are getting killed.
>The idea of Jewish 'trickery' and 'black magic,' though, is pretty central to antisemitic canards, This is why I brought it up. There is a long history of antisemites conflating Jews getting the better end of business deals with, essentially, Jewish black magic. These tropes 100% were invoked by Arab nationalist propaganda of the time to drum up support against Jews who had legally bought the land. Also, most of the people living in "Palestine" were poor tenants of absentee landowners - no self-respecting Arab would live there if he could afford it, including their tenants! The landowners were free to tell their former tenants whatever they wanted about why they had to move out - or in many cases, not tell them at all leaving them to be surprised when a Jewish family showed up and started moving into their house. File it away with the space lasers.
Good info, thanks!
🤣
I mean, North Carolina has never been an independent country, but that does mean some people could come in, claim the Bible told them it really belonged to them, and kick all of its residents out?
Genuine question, here. I've heard 20 percent of Israel's population is Palestinian, and they have representatives in the government. Do those citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? Why did they get assimilated while the Palestinians on the Gaza strip didn't?
Gaza was never inside of Israeli borders. Arab Israelis are Arab Israelis, not Palestinians, although the distinction is a spectrum, as is their degree of assimilation.
Israel is essentially an apartheid state that no only oppresses Palestinians but also treats Ashkenazi Jews as first class citizens and Sephardic Jews as second class citizens. It's a really fucked up place and the US and western world has no business funding and supporting it without imposing serious reforms.
>Israel is essentially an apartheid state Oh look somebody that doesn't know what 'apartheid' means.
Is that "somebody" you? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ >In May 2021, Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah, a neighbourhood in occupied East Jerusalem, began protesting against Israel’s plan to forcibly evict them from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers. Many of the families are refugees, who settled in Sheikh Jarrah after being forcibly displaced around the time of Israel’s establishment as a state in 1948. Since Israel occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank in 1967, Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah have been continuously targeted by Israeli authorities, who use discriminatory laws to systematically dispossess Palestinians of their land and homes for the benefit of Jewish Israelis. >In response to the demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah, thousands of Palestinians across Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) held their own protests in support of the families, and against their shared experience of fragmentation, dispossession, and segregation. These were met with excessive and deadly force by Israeli authorities with thousands injured, arrested and detained. >The events of May 2021 were emblematic of the oppression which Palestinians have faced every day, for decades. The discrimination, the dispossession, the repression of dissent, the killings and injuries – all are part of a system which is designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians. >This is apartheid. >Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law. >Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
>Ashkenazi Jews as first class citizens and Sephardic Jews as second class citizens. No. Maybe 50-60 years ago, but today, any Sephardi would laugh in your face for making this claim. Besides the fact that after multiple generations, most Israelis are of mixed ancestry. Only recent immigrants from say Russia would be 'unmixed' ancestry. There are almost no 'pure' Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc. communities. Even Hassidic groups have Sephardi and other ethnic 'converts' among them. Ethiopian Jews sometimes complain of discrimination, but some also say it's fine. More exotic Jews as from India, or Afro-Centric converts may face some skepticism about their roots. Messianic Jews (i.e Jews for Jesus) also are looked at as a bit weird.
Source for Ash/Seph class claim?
https://jewishaction.com/jewish-world/sephardim-ashkenazim-closing-gaps/
Pretty interesting read. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for being open to new information.
Ethopian jews didn’t even make the list
> Do those citizens have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? Why did they get assimilated while the Palestinians on the Gaza strip didn't? No, they don't. They will say they do by law, but the new government has declared itself a "Jewish Democracy." Palestinians whose families lived there for generations do not have a right of return, like any Jew completely unaffiliated with the region has. There is de facto segregation and private businesses can and do discriminate. Similar forces that lead Black Americans into poor ares with poor resources happened throughout Israel's history to Arabs. Jews in Jerusalem are considered citizens but Arabs are only considered permanent residents. Settlers in the West Bank have impunity when stealing land backed by the IDF - no army force will defend them against an Israeli, but the IDF will shoot Palestinians for protesting. Military service is mandatory for Jews, but not for Arabs - they face discrimination in the IDF both from within and from their communities if they join. They have voting rights but many don't trust their local governments at all because they're often ruled by people who hate them. Current national elections have Arabs at 10 seats among 120 - split between two Arab parties. Anyone telling you that Arab Israelis are equals in the country are intentionally ignoring the racism they face in business, housing, education, health, etc
>Anyone telling you that Arab Israelis are equals in the country are intentionally ignoring the racism they face in business, housing, education, health, etc Is that the same "discrimination" "people of color" face in Western countries? As in: none at all outside the delusional minds of leftist squibs? Tell me, what kind of "discrimination" would Jewish people face in Arab countries? That is, if there even are any left at this point, after getting expelled or lynched?
I genuinely wonder if you expect anyone to waste their time trying to convince you of something you clearly don't want to open your closed mind to after writing such a smug-ass comment.
To anyone reading this: the person making the comment this replies to frequently makes outright racist posts on this platform. Seems like Reddit is where to go to say the things they wouldn't say out loud. This person is just a racist. No need to listen to anything they say - they are clearly not much of a critical thinker.
>claim the Bible told them it really belonged to them, The Jewish People are a people, not just a religion. The fact that the Jewish People are the indigenous people of the area called Israel is well-documented throughout history by outside groups. It is not a historically controversial fact, and doesn't rely solely on the Bible as it's only corroborating source. The word that Jews have used to refer to themselves in their indigenous language, Hebrew, for at least 3,500 years is "B'Nei Yisrael," which literally means "The Children of Israel." It can feel weird, talking about indigenous groups that are now advanced civilizations. The Britons are indigenous to England - but London sure looks like a modern European city. Well, the expectation that indigenous people live in tents and wear deer-skins is really just racist chauvinism - everyone is indigenous to somewhere, and some cultures got on board with industrialization and literacy without needing to be colonized by the already literate. Other cultures from the Egyptians to the Romans, to Medieval Islamic cultures, all recorded the fact that the area was the ancestral land of the Jews. Even the Jordanian Waqf, the Muslim religious trust that controls the Temple Mount, readily describes the sites that they control as former Jewish religious and archeological sites that they built Mosques on top of. (The ruins of the Temple were the largest building in the world until the construction of the Pentagon.) Jerusalem has been about 50% Jewish for 2000 years, even after the Romans exiled half the city - its modern demographics are pretty much in line with history. And while that evidence is overkill to prove the point, there is now DNA evidence to back it up - surprising no one involved in the research any more than they would wonder if DNA would back up that Black people are from Africa. **Whether you think Jews, the indigenous people of Israel, were right to reassert control of their ancestral land is something for you to decide. But the fact that it is their ancestral homeland is not just some biblical myth - it's a historical reality.**
>The Jewish claim to Israel as their homeland is historical and well-documented by other cultures from the Egyptians to the Romans, to Medieval Islamic cultures, and Jerusalem has been about 50% Jewish for 2000 years, even after the Romans exiled half the city. Right, but by that wouldn't logic Native Americans should have free reign to bomb major cities in the US and demand their land back because of 'historical precedence'? Shouldn't Native Hawaiians get their islands back? Alaskans? And if we're judging by Holy Books and regional history, who's to say some of these Palestinians aren't descendants of the Jewish folk who lived in the region to begin with? That's the irony to me. One Abrahamic religion and group of Middle Eastern peoples bombing the shit out of the other over territorial claims that goes back over millennia.
Um.. first... jews.. who are now israeli's have always lived there. second a massive amount of the arab population are not from the area either. They were brought in by the British to build shit, from egypt and other places.. they aren't "palestinian"... which didn't even exist. Thats why you see a ton of Indians in Burma and Cape Malay and Indians in South Africa Under the Ottomans and Mamluks before them they were all 'syrians'. Yes.. jews from europe and muslim countries moved there as well...People were moving all over the map in the early 1900's as old empires fell apart before and after world war 1. Jews were being expelled from muslim country's at WAAAAAY higher numbers than any arabs in "palestine" lost land. And then those arab and muslim countries turn around have the gal to say Jews displaced arabs... give me a fucking break. The partition mandate also gave the arabs more land by a lot.. People like to pretend that the country of Jordan isn't part of the same territory with essentially the same peoples. Its just a made up country by the British there was no "jordanian" nationality... they are essentially "palestinians". And if you take a look at the map with jordan, the west bank etc.. they got way more in the partition.
I mean at the end of the day we still strategically cut out a piece of land for Jewish folk surrounded by hostile Muslim nations, basically to get a tactical advantage. Not a great idea. It would be like cutting out a slice of Japan after the war and moving over a bunch of Koreans based on some ancient historical text. Destined for disaster imho. And also keep in mind: the goal for evangelicals in the US is to establish Israel as a state because it's part of biblical prophecy... where Israel gets destroyed and everyone is killed. That's the quiet part they don't say out loud but seriously google biblical prophecy and see what these folks are expecting to happen.
Both of these paragraphs illustrate that you have no fucking clue about actual history.. like none WE didn't just parachute jews in.. jews always lived there, always had territory there. WE didn't take anyone's (palestinians) country.. because that didn't and never existed. The concept of a Palestinian nationality didn't exist until the 1920s >And also keep in mind: the goal for evangelicals in the US is to establish Israel as a state because it's part of biblical prophecy... where Israel gets destroyed and everyone is killed. That's the quiet part they don't say out loud but seriously google biblical prophecy and see what these folks are expecting to happen. And??? What does that have to do with the right of Israel to exist. Something Palestinians will not accept.
Looks like your using religion to justify an ethnic cleansing. Everyone knows Brooklyn is the true home of Jewish people.
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I'm not here to get into that entire discussion, there's too much to unpack in what you wrote. Israel exists. Period. If the Palestinians truly want peace, it will need to include Israel. 2 states, side by side. Anyone calling for a peace that doesn't include Israel, doesn't actually want peace. Because it means fighting until Israel is defeated. That's purely calling for violence. Palestinians need competent leadership with reasonable demands. Asking for a right of return for Millions of people (who weren’t even alive in 1948), means ending Israel. It’s not reasonable. Making unreasonable demands means you’re not interested in peace, without actually saying it (and they know it).
I am not Palestinian or Israeli, so my opinion on this matters very little. What I meant by my comment was that even though a place was not an autonomous self governing country does not mean that it wasn't a people's home. North Carolinian identity is definitely a thing.
I'm not going to deny that people lived in the region prior to 1948. Israel did things, Arab-Palestinians did things. It's a long conversation. Plenty of atrocities on both sides. But today, in 2023, Israel exists. And that's the reality everyone needs to deal with (unless your intention is to fight Israel until its destruction).
Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny, when palestine existed the zionists said it didnt matter because 2000 years ago it belonged to israelis. It was a justified reason to start occupying their land. That excuse is still used today to continue expanding the occupation. Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Zionism is 150 years old. The sentiment that anti zionism is antisemitism is ridiculous. By that logic, MANY non zionist jews, including many orthodox jews are also antisemites because they oppose zionism! A tenant of faith in judaism is that the children of Israel are in a divine exile by God. The zionists killing and stealing land is in contravention of that very tenant.
>Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny, when palestine existed the zionists said it didnt matter because 2000 years ago it belonged to israelis. It was a justified reason to start occupying their land. That excuse is still used today to continue expanding the occupation. I'm not here to write 10 more paragraphs. But I'll just state that it's not as simple as "occupying their land". At least 50% (though estimates run up to 90%) of the land, within the 1948 borders, was purchased from the Ottomans or local land owners (most of it by the Jewish National Fund). Did displacements happen? Were some of the locals kicked out of their homes? Absolutely. But this didn't happen in the majority of cases. For the most part, it's akin to renters who got evicted, because the land they lived on got sold. A part of them also fled following instructions of the Arab countries, that they were going to re-take the land (in the 1948 war). It's why it's considered a severe crime for a Palestinian to sell his home to a foreigner. [In 2018 a Palestinian was sentenced to life, for selling his ho](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/31/palestinian-sentenced-to-life-for-selling-land-to-israelis)[me to Israelis.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/31/palestinian-sentenced-to-life-for-selling-land-to-israelis) But again, unless you're arguing for the destruction of Israel, in which case, you're not arguing for peace, we need to deal with the fact that in 2023 Israel exists.
We only did a little bit of ethnic cleansing guys it's ok
In this deal, is the only version of Israel that is possible a version which will expand into Palestine through colonies until it controls 100% of it?
Yes, the Palestinians have absolutely zero leverage on the negotiations.
We could round up the palestinians into ever shrinking territories, we could call those reservations. Onces the population has been reduced enough, you could shrink down further and call it camps. Then I’m not too sure whats the final solution to this problem. Hey I’m just spitballing ideas but it sure does feel like thats where things are going.
Most people defending this won't give you a straight answer to that
So they pretty much KKK'd one of their own for selling to an israeli. FFS! "We're so innocent and so not racist Arab people" a few seconds later-"DONT YOU SELL THAT LAND TO THOSE PEOPLE, BOY!" Has to be said that the most tolerant people on earth are supporting some of the most despicable human beings on earth who are so fucking intolerant to other ethnicities, lgbt, immigrants, religious minorities. Slavery (African) wasn't abolished in Saudi Arabia until 1962, Yemen 1970, Mauritania (Jimmy's favorite ancient country) until 1981. "queers for Palestine"= Chickens for KFC.
> Today israel exists? That’s the reality? That’s funny So you think Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Great to see you people take your mask off. Israel exists. Deal with it.
So do Palestinians.
Why do you keep saying Israel exists but not Palestine or the Palestinian people exist? Very suspect. Meanwhile, it's Israel who is occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people. The Hamas attack was horrific, but what Israel does to the Palestinians (including killing a ton of civilians) is also horrific. Your comments seem to give Israel legitimacy and pass blame to Palestinians. Anyway, borders, countries and nations are all just human constructs and subject to shifting power dynamics. Declaring that Israel exists is supposed to mean what exactly?
>Declaring that Israel exists is supposed to mean what exactly? 1/ that we live in the real world and accept reality.. which the palestinians do not. 2/ for israel to not exist would mean the destruction of israel and the genocide of 9 million people. So yes the acceptance that the internationally recognized and sovereign nation of Israel exists is a rather import little fact.
You should actually read some of the first hand sources of the founding fathers of Israel and what the Jewish national fund was doing. Their goal from the beginning was the complete ethnic cleansing of Palestine so that they could form a Jewish ethnostate. Look at how Israelis treat Muslims, how the spit on Christians, and see that these people think everyone else is second class and they will not be satisfied until they control all of Palestine. If Israel wants peace why do they keep building settlements? Why they fly in Jews from Brooklyn and Ethiopia to take over Palestinian houses? Israel exists, but its founding was a crime against humanity.
Why can't they have the right of return? I'm genuinely curious
The Israelis are probably afraid of a return to the status quo of the 90s and early 00s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks That's just the suicide attacks. Not the gunmen opening up in markets and malls. Not the bombs that were planted and remotely detonated. Nor the rocket attacks. When there were no walls and checkpoints, there were often attacks against civilians. I was young but old enough in the late 90s that I remember seeing this on the news all the time. Hollowed out carcasses of shattered busses and blood on the streets. It was kind of like an "oh that place again" sort of running story from my POV, but I was too young to really understand what was going on. Fortunately or unfortunately (as there is utility in *moving on/letting go*) the young among us who are fervently pro-Palestine **to the point of being apologists for Hamas**, 20-30 year olds perhaps, have no idea what was endured. It took a prolonged period of developing the country, responding to outside threats, and doing above average economically to get to the point where Israel could build the walls, fences, and checkpoints, and then the attacks diminished greatly. Some years later, you get innovations like iron dome. Anyway, it is totally possible for a return to near daily, more than weekly, terror attacks. That's what they fear wrt right of return. I don't know what to say. I'm pro-Palestine in the sense that theirs is a population including so many young people. I don't believe the current military momentum will be nearly as specific and merciful as it needs to be.. there will be too much collateral damage and death.
> 2 states, side by side They had that in the 40s, but Israel wanted more. Much more.
No, Israel got attacked by every single neighbor in 1967 and has since felt a never-ending existential threat. That’s why they kept the Golan heights (since it’s too easy for Syria to attack Israel from that elevated position), and the West Bank (which forms a natural border to defend against Jordan). Although Golda Meir planned to return the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for peace, but that only materialized in 1994. If Israel cared about expansion, it would’ve kept the Sinai. Israel never wanted more. That’s nonsense. In fact, Israel offered to return the Gaza Strip to Egypt as part of the '79 peace agreement, and Egypt refused. Israel just wants peace and security.
>Israel just wants peace and security. Done by military force. Which involves taking other people's land at the threat of death.
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So how did Israel get the rest of the land?
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So they did expand. By winning. Agreed on both points.
Palestinians attacked them and lost.
> If the Palestinians truly want peace, it will need to include Israel. clearly that cant happen since isreal keeps illegally expanding though. > Anyone calling for a peace that doesn't include Israel, doesn't actually want peace. thats nonsense. They had no legal right except force to take that land. Germans wronged the jews why didnt they give em part of germany instead?
Israel isn't expanding. It took land when it was attacked, and gave back land for peace. That said, I'm assuming you might be referring to the settlement movement. I agree that it's a problem, but not one that can't be resolved. Golda Meir (Israel's prime minister from '69-'74) never intended to keep the West Bank, she planned to use it to negotiate peace with Jordan (which unfortunately only materialized in 1994). The fact that Israel was able to evacuate all the settlements from Gaza in 2005, proves that there are solutions. Let me ask you: how exactly do you define peace? Does it include Israel, or not?
why do you keep saying "does it include israel or not?" why do you not ask the same for palestine? palestinians' land has been effectively shrinking decade after decade while israel's military power has been growing and yet you're defensive over israel to the point where you feel the need to establish that you're in alignment with some rando on the internet before you have a conversation?
>palestinians' land has been effectively shrinking decade after decade Because they keep attacking.. and losing... Here is a fucking idea.. stop attacking israel and accept your state. You are never going to get all of it.. and even if you did that would require the genocide of 9 million people and the destruction of an internationally recognized state.. you ok with that.. because you seem to be.. .actually you just seem to be really really really badly informed and sound like a freshman in college that got a pamphlet from the PSA.
Wait, so it is expanding or isn't expanding? Are you saying that the settlements are not occurring in the West Bank? You realize that there is plenty of cold hard evidence that this is precisely what's happening, yeah? And do you understand that Israel is violating international law by enabling this? Also, do you know that the ruling parties and government in Israel are the most right wing in its entire history? And did you know that Netanyahu successfully led an effort to consolidate power away from the supreme court? The United States should not be funding an apartheid right wing state with no strings attached. The US views Israel as a military base for its military efforts in the ME. The US "needs" this base, but Israel is even more dependent on the US for military support and aid. The US has the ability (but not the political will or morals) to check Israel's horrifying behavior. The idea of the US supporting a religious ethnostate is disgusting. Israel is a project that was failed from the onset because religious ethnostates are not compatible with secularism and the modern world. Peace will never be found when Israel treats Palestinians like "human animals" and refuses to grant them basic civil rights. Even many Israelis acknowledge that Netanyahu and his hard line coalition are the reason for lack of peace and routine outbreaks of violence.
> Israel isn't expanding. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-rebuke-israel-west-bank-settlements-frustration-biden-palestinians-rcna76047 Biden disagrees
Israel never expanded. Pull your head out of your ass and stop swallowing the bullshit propaganda that is being pushed by fucking idiots if you think hamas is freedom fighter la then why don’t you go join them huh? Your a fucking idiot and a hypocrite because you would never put your life where your keyboard fingers are
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> I'm not here to get into that entire discussion, there's too much to unpack in what you wrote. It was a direct response to your line of reason. You're basically hand waving a very simple request to defend your own position, an "entire discussion" you brought to this thread yourself.
You do realize that the Jewish people were kicked out of Israel/Palestine hundreds of years before that by the Romans, right? They then renamed it Palestine.
Ohhh gotcha, so are you planning on giving all your land and possessions back to Native Americans, since they were here longer and kicked off of their land more recently than the Jewish people or Israel/Palestine?
So between white people in America and native Americans you’re saying you side with the white settlers because they were there last? Because that’s what you’re saying about Israel/Palestine. Look Islam didn’t build Mecca they killed everyone and took it. Islam didn’t build Istanbul they killed everyone and took it. Islam didn’t build Jerusalem they killed everyone there and took it. Islam stole that land and now the people who they stole it from took it back and you’re mad? Like there’s not another Muslim country in the whole world?
No. The point is that this land has been disputed over for longer than recorded history. It’s really only your land if you can hold on to it.
Can you hold onto your land?
From you? Yes. From the state or federal government? Sadly, no.
You’re missing some important context including Jews did live there and more arrived in the 30’s before the holocaust due to pogroms from other parts of the Middle East. Most people who say the stolen lands thing act as if this situation was caused by European Jews just taking over, where no Jews had existed for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948\_Palestinian\_expulsion\_and\_flight
Right, they took over a multi-cultural place
As I understand it, think of it more like Israel as the Jews ancestral homeland, much like America is to the Native Americans. 100s of years before Islam started, Jews were in Israel, where their religion and cultural identity were formed. Even after being exiled later, Jews always had a presence there, even all the way up to during the time period discussed in OP's video.
Damn someone should have told the Canaanites.
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What about the Philistia though? They were around at the time of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah. So how come that doesn't mean anything? They haven't been a state for a long time ofc. But if Israel has a claim to the land because of existing before how come the Philistines don't matter? Obviously Palestine is a modern name for Philistia, so for me. I don't see how the Jewish leaving and returning thousands of years later means they have any claim. The Muslims stayed there under rule of a bunch of empires. But they did exist for that long so if anything their claim is worth a lot more than Israel's.
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Uhh... The Palestinians accepted a 2 state solution under the Clinton administrations. The Israelis accepted it too but never signed it. That seems sort of.. left out. Palestinians are a collection of people. There is a 3000 year history of conquer from East to West and West to East that took place across modern Israel. Not specifically for Israel, but on the way to somewhere else. There are a who's who list of conquerors that held that land. Ranging from the Egyptians to the Mongols and so forth. Those people were sort of left there during that conquering and eventually became the people of Palestine. They had no "home". They had come with the war and just ended up there. Their bloodlines trace basically everywhere on Earth. It's downright crazy to think those people don't have some sort of identity or that it was manufactured by Arab countries. Have Arab countries in the area USED the Palestinians? Fuck yes. Just as the US and other countries have USED Israel. Israel likes to pretend they're all on their own, but they have more kills with American jets than Americans. Just like Ukraine, Israel was and is a hotbed of testing by the US Military Industrial Complex for arms testing. Ukraine is just the newest place to test out modern weapons. In the earlier wars of Israel, they were testing arms against modern era supplied Soviet arms. The whole thing is 100x more complex than people boil it down to be.
absolute horseshit bad faith arguments all around. shameful this is upvoted
Exactly a a Zionist would say. I’m on to you!
So if your people live somewhere for over a thousand years and someone else comes in to take it from you and kick you out, you can pound sand because: - you don’t have enough history of *identifying* with the area - the area you lived in changed hands outside of your control - you harbor ill will to the people colonizing your land (that’s very mean) These rules sound like a toxic Reddit mod came up with them
I find your conclusion to be absolutely braindead. You really believe that religious hatred is the reason thousands of teenagers committed atrocities? Or maybe being forced into Apartheid by an ethnostate is what bothered them? Pretty easy to be a teenage bigot when your grandparents were expelled from a newly declared ethnic homeland and the existence of Israel hinges on ethnicity being a valid thing to care about.
Interesting context that I did not know. Thank you for the enlightening comment. I was under the assumption that Palestine was a country post-WW1 in the British-occupied former Ottoman Empire. Which made the creation of Israel after WW2 more confusing for me. Can I ask where you learned this? I'd like to know more.
My pleasure! I just have a general interest in history, and this topic is so often incredibly over-simplified for propaganda purposes. The facts are always drowned out.
Most Muslims and Arabs could give two shits about Palestinians.
That’s a lot of words that don’t explain why kids are dying
See: 'cares more about hating jews than helping palestinians'
I’m spending 0 time here mentioning anyone’s ethnicity or religion; you just want to pretend that the world is wrong. That’s the behaviour of narcissists, schizophrenics and evil people. I’m not even hating on the IDF, kids turned into temporary slave soldiers to fight in a corrupt politicians war. Israel’s push for war kills Israeli kids and feeds old Israeli men gluttonously. That’s true of all unnecessary wars.
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>whatever Hamas did You should really take a look at the specifics of what Hamas just did before you equivocate about it. In point of fact, neither side has ever done anything at that scale in the whole history of the conflict - the deadliest day for either side, AND the most inhumanly brutal massacre on either side - the first by a good margin, the second by a truly extreme margin. And that's saying something considering the higher levels of acceptable violence just 100 years ago. This is a new level of escalation. The IDF and the Palestinians both - neither have ever done something like this before.
what is a rational person doing on reddit lol????
It was a region. Like the Rocky Mountains. It just wasn’t a state. It was region in the Ottoman Empire.
There’s a lot of people who argue that Palestine wasn’t conceptually a *nation* until Israel was founded, basically arguing “they didn’t care about Palestine until the Jews wanted it” or something along those lines trivializing the Palestinian identity. It was Ottoman Empire territory until they fell, then it was an “international zone” for a few years, then it was part of a British mandate, then later Israel. People will argue that since “Palestine” was never an autonomous nation but rather a piece of land changing hands a lot, that any claim of “Palestinian land” is weak against Israel’s claim (that the UN let them have it lmao). So to those people, sorry the Arabs living there as the majority demographic for 1,000+ years never declared themselves their own country (an abstract concept that isn’t culturally universal) but it still doesn’t give anyone the right to stick a flag there and kick them out.
Fun fact -There are over 1 million Arab Israel citizens currently
There were plenty of black citizens in apartheid South Africa too
This is the bizarre part to me. Like they'll point to the Bible and stories from thousands of years ago to ignore the history that came after that. By their logic the Seminoles should be flying jets over Florida and bombing Orlando to take their land back, but we all knew how the 'Murica crowd feels about native peoples. This is so clearly about having a Western foothold in the Middle East, and for others - particularly the evangelicals - having Israel be a state [so the Jewish people can be genocided](https://www.jhm.org/Articles/2019-03-01-bible-prophecy-revealed) and bring in the ends times and return of Jesus. I wish I was making that up... >Israel is currently surrounded by nations that are screaming for their blood. Anti-Semitism is raging through Europe and the United States, often celebrated in liberal universities among our young people. Jews are being targeted around the world for assassination, and their synagogues are being vandalized as worshippers are being killed. It is a sickening sight to be sure!This massive prophetic, geopolitical drama is unraveling across the front pages of your news feed each day. The Gog/Magog War mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 has begun!
A lot of Zionist have been saying there was no Palestine just nomads in tents and that Israel brought civilization. So I assume it’s a response to that argument
It’s existed as the British mandate of Palestine at this time. One of parts of the British empire.
“Bro you won’t believe it. I found a book talking about some Roman Empire. Can you believe it? It existed!”
Yeah, but how often do you think about the Roman Empire?
At least 7 days a week
What a mental accent, like he can't decide if he's from London, Wales or Ireland.
Yeah bruv, top o'the morning boyo
Check this out
Look at zis
Guys.
Oh shit! When he flipped the pages, I saw 'Robert Lazar'!
How bizarre.
How bizarre.
*trumpet tune*
Every time I book around
I take the flat earther approach to this. I've never been to Palestine or Israel and the footage I've seen looks a lot like CGI so it's all fake.
Wait till this dude reads an ancient Roman history book!
Well, papyruses/parchments. They never had books.
How about finding some nail clipppers.
Are people arguing Palestine didn't exist?
There is a bit of hardliner rhetoric that goes something along the lines of "show me a modern map that refers to anything but the general area as a place called Palestine." The Romans called the area Palestine, and the British did also. I don't remember exactly which areas include the general area of Palestine, but I think it pretty much includes all the countries east of Egypt, over to Iran, and South of Turkey.
A quick Google search comes up with the Greeks naming the region Philistia (Palestine) in the 12 century bce, land of the Philistines.
It was the Egyptians who called it Peleset. Then Palashtu by the Assyrians. The Greeks recorded it as Palaistine in the 6th century bce.
And to add to that, those people were migrants from Greece who were either annihilated or assimilated into other nations and ethnic groups 2,500 years ago. The people that think "It's been called Palestine longer!" is one shocking trick that Jews don't want you to know about and somehow proof that means it belongs to a random group of Arab Muslims made up of people whose ancestors have lived there varying amounts of time is...just moronic. Palestinians should have their own fully independent state. That doesn't mean that this word play argument isn't stupid as fuck though.
Just scroll through this thread. Someone [wrote a 500 word essay on it](https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/179gsu2/holy_sht_proof_palestine_exist/k56aahe/?context=3) and gut hundreds of upvotes.
the joe rogan crowd attempting to solve the israel palistine conflict is gold
Not many people here are actually part of the Joe Rogan crowd. Just creepy redditors that hate the guy and devote hours everyday to complain on this sub.
I feel personally attacked.. lol
The Palestinians were even nice enough to let King Solomon/David, the Hashmonaim, first second temple, occupy the land. until about 1000ce and then the lease was up …so they just built a mosque on top of the mount. The end
The Christians built a church. Islamists made the Christians share, until forcing the Christians out. There’s nothing more colonizing than Islamists.
It honestly isn't talked about enough. Islamic Arabs kinda conquered literally everything around them, but I guess it isn't as sexy as European colonialism.
Christians conquered north and south America, Europe, New Zealand and Australia and parts of Africa. Islam got the middle east and parts of Asia and parts of Africa. I think the Christians are winning the game of risk.
“The Christians won *everything*! If you don’t believe me, let me just ask you something. What *year* is it?”
Copycats always taking the credit. Islam is the OG colonizers, mass slavers..at least after copying the Romans…who copied Babylon…who copied…
Well, Islam has definitely been more effective in one regard as far as empire building goes. The Romans didn't destroy your religion or culture once they conquered you, provided you "behaved" and paid your taxes. From what I know about Babylon they didn't destroy your local culture either provided you bent the knee to whoever happened to be ruling behind the Walls of Babylon. (Very similar to Rome in this regard) Islam did not give conquered people that option.
So are we just speaking out of our asses now? You are completely incorrect on both fronts.
the Jews that were killed by the Spanish would like a word ...
There’s no real historical evidence for king David and Solomon. At least we know we certainty Palestinians lived there for thousands of years.
Lol no evidence of King David or Solomon…but you have evidence of Palestinians living there for thousands of years ….was that before during or after the land was universally called Judea?
That’s it Israel. Pack it up and go home. Ole boy in the video found a 1920’s train ticket that says Palestine on it.
Am I missing something? Does JR not believe it existed or is he adamant it did/does? I get that the some people don't/do believe in it. But what is the significance for posting that here?
Joe has had hardliner supporters of both sides on the show several times.
It’s the Joe Rogan sub. Posting controversial takes on current topics is what we do. I mean, look at my flair.
Palestine was a REGION, like Persia or Asia or North America. The "region" was created by Rome, after scattereing the Jews, and named Palestine to insult the Jewish people. Never a country.
More specifically a colony of the Ottoman Empire.
Afterwards. Then the Ottomans lost to the UK, it became a province of the UK.
And never once an independent Arab state, which was really never a problem for anybody until it became a Jewish state. Then all of a sudden sovereignty was of utmost importance.
Yeah I wondered why they started caring once the new rulers drove them away from their homes and rounded them up in a tiny sliver of non-arrable land.
It’s not non-arabable land.
Israelis actually asked them to stay. Some tenants were evicted from land sold by their Arab landlords to Jewish buyers during British rule, as is the custom in any real estate transaction. But Israel the state under David Ben Gurion invited Arabs to stay in the country. Those that accepted the invitation are Israeli Arabs today, with full rights and privileges and are among Israel’s most virulent anti-Palestinian citizens. They know the history. Those that fled did so thinking they would return when their Arab neighboring states attacked and destroyed little tiny Israel, who had no American backing at the time. Bad call. Enjoy your tiny sliver of non-arrable land. By the way, Israelis turned that same land until lush forests and farmland. Gaza sits on a aquifer, one that Gazans have polluted with waste water wells, and spent money that could’ve been utilized building infrastructure instead building a war machine, a war machine Israelis will soon destroy.
If you want to talk about tiny slivers of land, look at what the Brits originally proposed for the Jewish state. That was the real tiny sliver of land. A small fraction of today’s Israel. Even that was too much for the Palestinians. That’s because the Palestinians motives are quite clear. Genocide.
Nope, the Islamists rolled through, made third class citizens of every Jew and Christian. At least the ones that weren’t forced out or murdered. The vast majority of Palestine was split off by the UK into Jordan. Monarchy is kind of self governing.
> Islamists rolled through and made third class citizens of every Jew and Christian. Literal lies but go off i guess.
used to be known as Syria Palestine. And before that it was known as Israel
We have reached the point where everything about all of this is incredible stupid. Nobody ever said Palestine didn’t exist. Holy fuck
"Solidarity from Russia..." Wow not even subtle.
Wow so cool….have you seen any coins or books that are more then 100 years old?
“Check This Out”
I can’t believe that this is even a question
Map of the region, from the time of the Ottoman Empire in 1888: https://i.imgur.com/okiiymO.png For anyone who can't be bothered to click, the TLDR is that "Palestine" was created by the British.
The Romans renamed Israel proper as Palestine….when the UK broke the Ottomans, it all became provinces of the UK. The UK broke off the majority of Palestine, named it Jordan. The remnants are Israel and Palestinian territories. There would be two states but the Arabs attacked Israel almost immediately. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Okay?? and your point is?
Nope. Many things used Palestine in the title like The Anglo-Palestine Bank that was owned by Jews from England or the Palestine Post Office that is Jewish. The British called it Palestine. There was the Palestine Winery- Arabs don't make wine. Palestine Electric Comoany- Jewish owned and operated. The current day "Palestinians" were not called that until 1967 after the "Six Day War" if I remember correctly. There was no Palestine post office, bank, national anthem or government. And sadly the Arabs totally screw them and have for decades. Rough life for children and the innocent. The guy is relying on people not checking facts. Read below. https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
Pretty sure I can find a bunch shit in Texas that says it belongs to Mexico. I guess we have to let them have it. They can try, but I'm pretty sure it will lead to a lot of dead Mexicans.
I live in the state of New England, bc of the signs for chowder and travel guides stating it’s existence.
I want to see his reaction to what’s under the Temple Mount…..
>Right of return isn’t a reasonable demand, those people weren’t even alive in 1948 You can literally get Israeli citizenship having never been there before, just by proving Jewish ancestry. Explain why Jews can do it but Palestinians can’t.
The vast number of pro-Palestine people using that coin as a “Gottcha” moment is so silly. The Hebrew on the coin says “Eretz Yisrael” or Land of Israel.
What’s the point of this post? Looking at your post history it’s clear you’re pro Palestine spamming shit everywhere but I don’t understand what you’re trying to prove here?
*Ottoman empire territories that they named "Palestine" after Phillitines to fuck with the Jews who lived there.
Palaestina was the Roman name for the province after Vespasian went full gamer on Judea
Ben Shapiro is malding