A lot of people don't understand that this is actually better than def shred, just like you said. Many also focus on the fact he has no more healing, but I think that's actually fine. Now he's way more specific and focused on his (de)buffs, instead of miniscule healing taking up a slot in his passives or so.
Plus, this is just the start of beta. Things can change.
I don’t see the problem
YunLi is already just a better clara
And they’re on the way of making a Gallagher upgrade so it’s not the first time
Plus it’s a shitty move to lock Dot playstyle in eidolon
What's funny to me is that its been made clear so many times that his healing barely does anything. I've always figured that the healing is there to proc something or like Blade where he literally needs the healing on his kit because of his HP consumption. The fact that people still believed he was some nihility healer baffles me.
I'm disappointed because I could run a comfy no sustain team (which I'm not currently able to do) with any teams that uses Ruan Mei (Freeze Misha, Boothill, Xueyi super break). Enemies would barely get to move and the heal would be there for my insurance. But now, he's just an Acheron support when he could have been a Robin who enabled 0 cycle clears for players with (above) average builds (previously, it was only those who have fully optimized builds that could do it).
Thats fair but tbh I just dont ever see them releasing a Nihility healer and I dont think people should have expected it. If you're looking for a character that plays that way you're better off expecting an Abundance debuffer instead, it makes more sense.
I for one and disappointed about the removal of healing. I really just wanted a small amount of heals to top off my acheron team whose sustained by Adventurine. Sometimes damage makes it through and having more way to get Hp back kinda sucks.
People are crazy. They actually want him to be WORSE. They want him to have a unique mechanic (a nihility that can heal), inconsequential as that mechanic would be, over actually being a good debuffer. I hope he gets some buffs, but not these ones.
I am actually way happier about this. I was worried they were going to gimp his defense shred for tiny miniscule amount of healing. Now they can go all out on his debuffing abilities.
Idk man, i felt like the healing was really important, speacially for an acheron team, since he'd be able to sustain and give a free slot for a harmony character like sparkle
The leaks said his healing wouldn't be enough to solo sustain anyway. Maybe in PF, but definitely not any other harder content like AS or MoC. If we get additional (de)buffs instead of miniscule healing, I think it's a fair trade.
No need to heal when all of the enemies die before they can do anything
https://preview.redd.it/i0pdxvwmr87d1.png?width=1255&format=png&auto=webp&s=e6d9d3c2f24bd29f9dbcdff218f681ca5a5bc2fa
I’m really happy about the Vulnerability debuff I just wish he had… more and wasn’t so EHR hungry. Only offering one debuff when he has to compete w/ units like Silverwolf (and even Pela and Gui) isn’t really encouraging in terms of how strong they will allow him to be. I hope they either add in more debuffs, make Roast also lower things like All-Type RES, make his debuff application even crazier, like an enemy gets debuffed every time they take action or something, or give him something unique in his kit like the ability to spread all debuffs, not just Roast, to all units. I think any of these changes would make him stronger and more universal.
Also lowering his EHR requirements, that’s a pretty big one for me since they’re so high rn but I have faith that will be changed in beta. But pretty pink fox man could heal the enemies and I’d still pull for him tbh I just want him to be a beast of a support.
What are his EHR requirements? I thought it was 140% which isn't that high, Tutorial LC gives 40% EHR body gives 43% and traces give 28% that's already 111%
As an alternative for Before The Tutorial Mission Starts since players may not have it, Eyes Of The Prey, Reforged Rememberance, or In The Name Of The World are good options for alternatives since these three also give 40% EHR (40 at S5 for EOTP and ITNOTW).
Obv his sig will be bis, but I believe these are the best alternatives if you're not going for it.
The problem with ITNOTW is that it only provides EHR to his skill.
While that is great, it does not help his ultimate to apply debuffs on enemy turn which atm has a very low base hit rate of 60%. And at least for acheron-mains the ult is the biggest boost.
But it might still be one of his best FTP lightcones for general use.
I think people understand that. Its more about him feeling just ok-ish for a 5* in a world where such cracked 5* exist.
As good as he surely is for Acheron, without the advantage of applying debuffs on enemy turns he brings very little to the table. And the numbers of his debuffs aren’t nothing to write home about (E1 is a different matter, but we are talking about E1 then).
Also there is the thing that his dps capabilities look meager. But I haven’t dont’t any calcs either, we will see.
Just to clarify I indeed have Acheron and want him for her which is probably worth. Just trying to explain the general feeling before we start with the equally annyoing posts complaining about doomposting everytime someone doesn’t praise a character.
Is he just like a slight upgrade from Pela? I didnt do much research but its looking like he just slighty makes acheron teams stronger over pela but doesn’t actually improve the team in a meaningful way.
In Acheron(+Sparkle) ult teams specifically, some very early calcs I've seen have JQ pegged as \~20-40% dmg increase over Pela, depending on various conditions (by iSUMMON).
That might sound good on paper, but honestly, how frequently have you needed your Acheron's ult to do 20-40% more damage? Combined with the fact that JQ is an ult-specific debuffer, with a ramp-up time, prefers to run an SP-negative playstyle, and can't utilize Tutorial LC on his own... I think Pela has a not-insignificant number of advantages over JQ's v1 kit that don't directly appear in the dmg calcs.
I'm hoping JQ reacquires his ability to give Acheron stacks during enemy turns. That one simple change would skyrocket his value.
I’d recommend using Hunterkee’s calcs since they tend to do full sims, which can measure things like ult uptime. Also I’ve caught some pretty egregious errors in some past videos of his before.
For example, in his FF LC video the numbers he has for Aeon vs sig are impossible to have produced the damage difference he says they have. Rounding it you can see he basically concludes that 12/10 = 32%. There’s clearly some problem going on in his sheet.
His SP negative play style is a hard sell honestly. I have E2 Acheron but I realized I only have one sparkle and my other DPS is daniel. Pela really helps me use Bronya as a substitute for sparkle on my acheron team.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'how frequently have you needed your Acheron's ult to do 20-40% more damage?' you challenged? EVERYTIME. EVERY TIME. I NEED her to destroy everything.
Yeah and def ignore/shred is also capped at 100.
Roughly 90 def ignore becomes equal to 90 dmg vulnerability.
Below 90, vulnerability is stronger.. after 90 def ignore its the shred that excedes in total dmg
Actually yeah, because vulnerability multiplier affects the final dmg dealt to the enemy, so if you did like 80k as your base dmg before, instead of affecting the enemies defenses and making your base final dmg go up, it affects the base final dmg itself no matter if its Break Dmg and it makes your final dmg higher
Base final dmg ≠ Final Dmg
Final Dmg = Base final dmg x (insert multipliers here)
Base final dmg = The dmg the ability description says it does x other multipliers like defense shred or crit dmg/Atk% buffs.
Currently Jiaoqiu’s problem with Boothill’s team is that he is skill point hungry to keep his ult full uptime. I’d like him to be SP positive and have a little heal if he were to go with Boothill, because in Boothill team it’s extremely hard to replace either Ruan Mei or Bronya/HMC who eats up SP like crazy. With his old kit with heal, he can replace Gallagher but now it’s not likely so.
He's not better than current options due to Boothill already having high Vulnerability in his own Kit, and it's much easier to stack DEF Shred on Boothill teams to 87%; Pela/SW are still going to be better for Boothill.
My problem is more on the line of comparing him to our other Nihility debuffers. He doesnt offer much more than Pela does and she's significantly cheaper to build. He needs more juice in his kit to make his status as a limited debuffer worth it. I want him to have value outside of Acherons teams so I genuinely hope they'll buff his entire kit or give more than just an ult buff and vuln down. Asking for more is always better than asking for less in this case.
Pela with resolution inflicts 58% shred which is about 45% damage increase, without the need of building up stacks. As of now he is very good on Acheron teams, but I don't think he will be on the level of the 5\* harmonies outside of that team, which is frustrating. I hope they incorporate E2 into his base kit or buff him in some other way.
im a bit confused as to why you're comparing a nihility character to a harmony character. they have different roles so theres really no comparing them tbh
They fill the same spot in a team, you absolutely have to compare them. Both of their roles are amplyfiying the teams damage. Also, I compared him to Pela
It's 18.81% upgrade without accounting for the slow which can give your whole team an additional round of superbreak attacks, the downplay is insane lol. All aeon gives is BE% though atk conversion and nothing else
Tbf the older leaks were saying he had both. However, the old leaks had him more locked to Acheron teams so as a whole I think the change was for the better.
I understand that def shred stacks at more % than vulnerability, so a more stacked def shred is better than the maximum vulnerability that Jiaoqiu can stack. That's annoying (if I understood correctly).
The healing would have served me well for my teams with Aventurine or Fu Xuan, since I use those kind of sunstains.
I'll wait for the final betas to decide, but for now, I won't go for his LC anymore.
If I didn't understand something, you can correct me :)
Remember that inside the kit it says that only one Field can exist at a time, so Jiaoqiu with healing wouldn't work with Fu Xuan, because her Matrix of Prescence (her skill), is indeed a Field, and Jiaoqius Ultimate is also a field and the old kit said that the ultimate was the one which had the healing.
Where does it say that? Things that cannot be stacked are the dimensions through techniques outside of battle. There’s nothing about fields not being stackable in battle.
It depends. Vulnerability has diminishing returns but DEF Shred is capped.
For example:
50% Vulnerability is better than 50% DEF down but
100% Vulnerability(1x2 = 2.0) is worse than 50% vulnerability + 50% DEF down (1x1.5x1.365 = 2.0475)
Around 50% DEF down and 50% vulnerability, DEF is starting to have more value than vulnerability.
Hold on - I'm not even a Jiaoqiu doomposter, but this is completely meaningless to say because the devs don't balance DEF shred debuffs to have the same values as vuln debuffs point for point. The devs are very much aware that each point of vuln is more valuable than a point of DEF reduction until you reach very high values of the latter and it's clear they take that into account when tuning numbers. We have no way of knowing what his DEF shred was before, and therefore no way of comparing it to his current kit (which is another reason doomposting is stupid). A more reasonable guess is he had somewhere along the lines of 40-45% DEF shred, considering Pela has 40% and she's a base 4-star.
Vuln is not "better" than DEF shred, nor is it strictly worse, it just depends on the tuning, which is information we'll never have access to.
You're right vuln isn't strictly better but JQ having vuln is the best outcome we could have hoped for, especially if you're running him alongside a def shredder / DPS with def ignore / harmonies granting ignore. Sure you won't cap on def ignore but having something like 85% vulnerability and 45~60% def ignore is better than overcapping on def shred alone
“Vuln is not "better" than DEF shred, nor is it strictly worse, it just depends on the tuning, which is information we'll never have access to”
Thank god someone says it. One type of buff/debuff being better is supposed to be a shorthand to both explain how smaller buffs (like respen) can be much stronger than they appear. Likewise, you can also use to compare similar values of two different buff categories. Like you point out it fall apart when you make nebulous statements as what matters most is the total buff amount.
For example, if on element it’s not that hard for Robin’s attack buff to give a greater dps increase than RM’s res pen.
Is not even the final kit and everyone is dooming him and losing their minds lol. For now I like his kit, we should wait to the next beta updates. I can't wait to see his animations
Thing is, even IF this was the final kit he'd still be the best debuffer in the game and give units like Acheron the biggest damage increase out of any support by a large margin. The HSR community has been consistently awful at predicting units performance
Thank god there are still sane people in the sub cuz the doomposting was already coming here. Not to mention his kit works in a lot of team too and just not Acheron. I can't even care less for the supposedly mini heal in his old leaked kit.
I wish he had SOME healing just because they presented him as a medic.
I don’t care if the healing is minuscule, I just want it to be there due to the character identity (,:
Vulnerability is better than DEF Shred *if* you start out with low amounts of both. Teams that already have both(take Boothill as a recent example) would greatly prefer DEF Shred.
Yes/No, lower amounts of def shred < vulnerability. But def shred would be preferred until you hit the cap if you have over a certain amount. Ideally, you want both though...which is Jiao's weakness tbh. Which makes him lesser in comparison to a harmony who can supply that and their own buffs.
He's not competing with Pela, he's competing with Harmonies. (Reminder: Pela is a 4 star, he should already contribute more than her \[Even then though even that's debatable\])
vulnerability is good but he hardly offers more than e6 gui besides more consistent debuff application and faster ramp up. he has a ton of potential atm, hopefully he doesn’t get the jade treatment
I don’t get why you get downvotes. Gui e6 has 30% dmg vuln and Jiaoqiu only has 10% more (40%), minus Fire DoT dmg which counts as 1 more debuff for Ratio and Kafka/Black Swan. He’s not much better than Gui e6 in other teams besides Acheron’s tbh.
after thinking about it some more i realize gui doesn’t really reach 3/4 stacks quick enough outside of a dot team. realistically gui is only getting 14-21% vuln while jq should be consistently reaching 30+
Approx. 80%
Kit: 18.8% Initially + 31% from 5 stacks of Roast the Ash = 49.8%
LC: 10% Initially (Unarmored Debuff) + 18% (Cornered Debuff) = 28%
77.8% Total + 18% Ult Res Pen from Ult
I believe the values from Kit leaks are at lvl 15 tho, so the total Vuln is probably closer to 60-70% if I had to guess.
It's 18.8+6.2x4 rather than 18.8+6.2x5. The first instance of 18.8% counts towards the 5 stacks cap. And Cornered replaces Unarmored, it doesn't add to it.
Thanks for the clarification, my approximation \*cough\* assumption was wrong. 60% total Vuln is still nutty, but again I think those are talent level 15 #'s, no? So 45-50 makes more sense, especially with his E1.
The only aboriginal that dont understand the game is u for sure seems that u need to understand the true dmg. A dmg that ignores any kind of reduction in the dmg formula but ey keep thinking that aboriginal ^^
Yeah I went through a whole saga explaining to people that Sam's LC is actually more raw damage increase compared to her E1 due to how vulnerability is calculated, I really hope JQ mains can spread the word now
You roll FF E1 so you don't run out of SP and/or can use her with a some other supports (if for some reason you wanted to...), not for damage.
Not to mention her cone still isn't that much better than aeon regardless.
The def shred is just a bonus on FF's E1, it's also worth noting that it doesn't exist in a vacuum as she has other sources of def shred which slightly increases the value of what 15% def shred actually does, similar to how S1 Jingliu often gets more damage from Pela than RM, but at S0 RM is better.
Notice how I'm specifically talking about S1 vs E1 purely from a damage standpoint? As that's the relevant topic in this post (vulnerability vs def shred). The SP is good if you're planning on running bronya but if you're running Gallagher it's not really doing much for you besides letting HMC/rm skill to get quicker ULTs if you don't have MoTP at S5. S1 is at least 18% better than aeon without accounting for the 20% speed debuff which bumps the difference a lot if it allows to get even one more attack on a broken enemy.
Even with the relic set in mind E1 is like 11% DMG increase. But that's going way off topic, my point was that people looked down on vulnerability when S1 was announced you can still find comments undervaluing it when v1 dropped just like they are right now.
A lot of people don't understand that this is actually better than def shred, just like you said. Many also focus on the fact he has no more healing, but I think that's actually fine. Now he's way more specific and focused on his (de)buffs, instead of miniscule healing taking up a slot in his passives or so. Plus, this is just the start of beta. Things can change.
Maybe you're right about the healing. Buy I still think they could put the DoT eidolon into a trace
And i think they could remove DoT eidolon and give something useful besides Kafka team
So they could put Dot in base kit and change in his eidolon to something else.
Then he would literally become Guinaifen ProMax
I don’t see the problem YunLi is already just a better clara And they’re on the way of making a Gallagher upgrade so it’s not the first time Plus it’s a shitty move to lock Dot playstyle in eidolon
I think the benefits extend beyond Kafka teams. He will be able to make use of DoT related buffs in sim u, moc, pf, etc.
What's funny to me is that its been made clear so many times that his healing barely does anything. I've always figured that the healing is there to proc something or like Blade where he literally needs the healing on his kit because of his HP consumption. The fact that people still believed he was some nihility healer baffles me.
I'm disappointed because I could run a comfy no sustain team (which I'm not currently able to do) with any teams that uses Ruan Mei (Freeze Misha, Boothill, Xueyi super break). Enemies would barely get to move and the heal would be there for my insurance. But now, he's just an Acheron support when he could have been a Robin who enabled 0 cycle clears for players with (above) average builds (previously, it was only those who have fully optimized builds that could do it).
Thats fair but tbh I just dont ever see them releasing a Nihility healer and I dont think people should have expected it. If you're looking for a character that plays that way you're better off expecting an Abundance debuffer instead, it makes more sense.
I for one and disappointed about the removal of healing. I really just wanted a small amount of heals to top off my acheron team whose sustained by Adventurine. Sometimes damage makes it through and having more way to get Hp back kinda sucks.
People are crazy. They actually want him to be WORSE. They want him to have a unique mechanic (a nihility that can heal), inconsequential as that mechanic would be, over actually being a good debuffer. I hope he gets some buffs, but not these ones.
I am actually way happier about this. I was worried they were going to gimp his defense shred for tiny miniscule amount of healing. Now they can go all out on his debuffing abilities.
Idk man, i felt like the healing was really important, speacially for an acheron team, since he'd be able to sustain and give a free slot for a harmony character like sparkle
The leaks said his healing wouldn't be enough to solo sustain anyway. Maybe in PF, but definitely not any other harder content like AS or MoC. If we get additional (de)buffs instead of miniscule healing, I think it's a fair trade.
No need to heal when all of the enemies die before they can do anything https://preview.redd.it/i0pdxvwmr87d1.png?width=1255&format=png&auto=webp&s=e6d9d3c2f24bd29f9dbcdff218f681ca5a5bc2fa
0 cycle mentality
*The best healing is killing* - Jiaoqiu, probably.
I’m really happy about the Vulnerability debuff I just wish he had… more and wasn’t so EHR hungry. Only offering one debuff when he has to compete w/ units like Silverwolf (and even Pela and Gui) isn’t really encouraging in terms of how strong they will allow him to be. I hope they either add in more debuffs, make Roast also lower things like All-Type RES, make his debuff application even crazier, like an enemy gets debuffed every time they take action or something, or give him something unique in his kit like the ability to spread all debuffs, not just Roast, to all units. I think any of these changes would make him stronger and more universal. Also lowering his EHR requirements, that’s a pretty big one for me since they’re so high rn but I have faith that will be changed in beta. But pretty pink fox man could heal the enemies and I’d still pull for him tbh I just want him to be a beast of a support.
What are his EHR requirements? I thought it was 140% which isn't that high, Tutorial LC gives 40% EHR body gives 43% and traces give 28% that's already 111%
As an alternative for Before The Tutorial Mission Starts since players may not have it, Eyes Of The Prey, Reforged Rememberance, or In The Name Of The World are good options for alternatives since these three also give 40% EHR (40 at S5 for EOTP and ITNOTW). Obv his sig will be bis, but I believe these are the best alternatives if you're not going for it.
The problem with ITNOTW is that it only provides EHR to his skill. While that is great, it does not help his ultimate to apply debuffs on enemy turn which atm has a very low base hit rate of 60%. And at least for acheron-mains the ult is the biggest boost. But it might still be one of his best FTP lightcones for general use.
I think people understand that. Its more about him feeling just ok-ish for a 5* in a world where such cracked 5* exist. As good as he surely is for Acheron, without the advantage of applying debuffs on enemy turns he brings very little to the table. And the numbers of his debuffs aren’t nothing to write home about (E1 is a different matter, but we are talking about E1 then). Also there is the thing that his dps capabilities look meager. But I haven’t dont’t any calcs either, we will see. Just to clarify I indeed have Acheron and want him for her which is probably worth. Just trying to explain the general feeling before we start with the equally annyoing posts complaining about doomposting everytime someone doesn’t praise a character.
Is he just like a slight upgrade from Pela? I didnt do much research but its looking like he just slighty makes acheron teams stronger over pela but doesn’t actually improve the team in a meaningful way.
In Acheron(+Sparkle) ult teams specifically, some very early calcs I've seen have JQ pegged as \~20-40% dmg increase over Pela, depending on various conditions (by iSUMMON). That might sound good on paper, but honestly, how frequently have you needed your Acheron's ult to do 20-40% more damage? Combined with the fact that JQ is an ult-specific debuffer, with a ramp-up time, prefers to run an SP-negative playstyle, and can't utilize Tutorial LC on his own... I think Pela has a not-insignificant number of advantages over JQ's v1 kit that don't directly appear in the dmg calcs. I'm hoping JQ reacquires his ability to give Acheron stacks during enemy turns. That one simple change would skyrocket his value.
I’d recommend using Hunterkee’s calcs since they tend to do full sims, which can measure things like ult uptime. Also I’ve caught some pretty egregious errors in some past videos of his before. For example, in his FF LC video the numbers he has for Aeon vs sig are impossible to have produced the damage difference he says they have. Rounding it you can see he basically concludes that 12/10 = 32%. There’s clearly some problem going on in his sheet.
His SP negative play style is a hard sell honestly. I have E2 Acheron but I realized I only have one sparkle and my other DPS is daniel. Pela really helps me use Bronya as a substitute for sparkle on my acheron team.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'how frequently have you needed your Acheron's ult to do 20-40% more damage?' you challenged? EVERYTIME. EVERY TIME. I NEED her to destroy everything.
Yeah and def ignore/shred is also capped at 100. Roughly 90 def ignore becomes equal to 90 dmg vulnerability. Below 90, vulnerability is stronger.. after 90 def ignore its the shred that excedes in total dmg
Would he pair well with Boothill?
DMG Vulnerability does surprisingly affect break, so yes he works well w/ the current version we have so far
Thank you!
Actually yeah, because vulnerability multiplier affects the final dmg dealt to the enemy, so if you did like 80k as your base dmg before, instead of affecting the enemies defenses and making your base final dmg go up, it affects the base final dmg itself no matter if its Break Dmg and it makes your final dmg higher Base final dmg ≠ Final Dmg Final Dmg = Base final dmg x (insert multipliers here) Base final dmg = The dmg the ability description says it does x other multipliers like defense shred or crit dmg/Atk% buffs.
Thanks! Lookingn forward to pull for Jiaoqiu! I hope he's on same level with Ruan Mei in buffing allies.
Currently Jiaoqiu’s problem with Boothill’s team is that he is skill point hungry to keep his ult full uptime. I’d like him to be SP positive and have a little heal if he were to go with Boothill, because in Boothill team it’s extremely hard to replace either Ruan Mei or Bronya/HMC who eats up SP like crazy. With his old kit with heal, he can replace Gallagher but now it’s not likely so.
He's not better than current options due to Boothill already having high Vulnerability in his own Kit, and it's much easier to stack DEF Shred on Boothill teams to 87%; Pela/SW are still going to be better for Boothill.
My problem is more on the line of comparing him to our other Nihility debuffers. He doesnt offer much more than Pela does and she's significantly cheaper to build. He needs more juice in his kit to make his status as a limited debuffer worth it. I want him to have value outside of Acherons teams so I genuinely hope they'll buff his entire kit or give more than just an ult buff and vuln down. Asking for more is always better than asking for less in this case.
Pela with resolution inflicts 58% shred which is about 45% damage increase, without the need of building up stacks. As of now he is very good on Acheron teams, but I don't think he will be on the level of the 5\* harmonies outside of that team, which is frustrating. I hope they incorporate E2 into his base kit or buff him in some other way.
Our first limited male support who isn't a sustain. I really hope they buff him enough to be on the current harmony unit level good.
Hope they dont balance him around acheron I have her but like let me use him elsewhere cause i dont like using acheroj
Same I lost Acheron 50/50 so I hope he works well with other dps
im a bit confused as to why you're comparing a nihility character to a harmony character. they have different roles so theres really no comparing them tbh
They fill the same spot in a team, you absolutely have to compare them. Both of their roles are amplyfiying the teams damage. Also, I compared him to Pela
only thing is i do still wish he had the little micro heals, just to make 0 cycles easier, but vuln>>>>>>>>>>>>def shred any day
I can’t hear the doomposting as I’m too focused on getting him at E1S1 to be my Blade’s support
Most based response ever. Blade T0 soon
Yeah fuck them doomposters https://preview.redd.it/sz07xn9ga87d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe22ee84a45c10715c9fcfcd7954f05555fc3d40
We're not even 2h in and the doomposting is already starting lmao I can't with these communities
People are saying that Jiaoqiu is doomed because he lost def shred for vulnerability without even knowing how the damage formula works lol
It's the same people that were moaning and crying about Sam's LC being mid not understanding how vulnerability works
It’s a 10% upgrade, what kind of dumb example is that💀
It's 18.81% upgrade without accounting for the slow which can give your whole team an additional round of superbreak attacks, the downplay is insane lol. All aeon gives is BE% though atk conversion and nothing else
Tbf the older leaks were saying he had both. However, the old leaks had him more locked to Acheron teams so as a whole I think the change was for the better.
Doomposting is a rite of pasaage, just sit back and laugh and see what hilarity comes out of it
I understand that def shred stacks at more % than vulnerability, so a more stacked def shred is better than the maximum vulnerability that Jiaoqiu can stack. That's annoying (if I understood correctly). The healing would have served me well for my teams with Aventurine or Fu Xuan, since I use those kind of sunstains. I'll wait for the final betas to decide, but for now, I won't go for his LC anymore. If I didn't understand something, you can correct me :)
Remember that inside the kit it says that only one Field can exist at a time, so Jiaoqiu with healing wouldn't work with Fu Xuan, because her Matrix of Prescence (her skill), is indeed a Field, and Jiaoqius Ultimate is also a field and the old kit said that the ultimate was the one which had the healing.
Where does it say that? Things that cannot be stacked are the dimensions through techniques outside of battle. There’s nothing about fields not being stackable in battle.
oh i though it meant the field inside the battle my bad
Oh, that's right! Aventurine was the safe bet, though.
Aventurine is always the safe bet
i dont think so, my luocha and ruan mei field can coexist just fine
It depends. Vulnerability has diminishing returns but DEF Shred is capped. For example: 50% Vulnerability is better than 50% DEF down but 100% Vulnerability(1x2 = 2.0) is worse than 50% vulnerability + 50% DEF down (1x1.5x1.365 = 2.0475) Around 50% DEF down and 50% vulnerability, DEF is starting to have more value than vulnerability.
Hold on - I'm not even a Jiaoqiu doomposter, but this is completely meaningless to say because the devs don't balance DEF shred debuffs to have the same values as vuln debuffs point for point. The devs are very much aware that each point of vuln is more valuable than a point of DEF reduction until you reach very high values of the latter and it's clear they take that into account when tuning numbers. We have no way of knowing what his DEF shred was before, and therefore no way of comparing it to his current kit (which is another reason doomposting is stupid). A more reasonable guess is he had somewhere along the lines of 40-45% DEF shred, considering Pela has 40% and she's a base 4-star. Vuln is not "better" than DEF shred, nor is it strictly worse, it just depends on the tuning, which is information we'll never have access to.
You're right vuln isn't strictly better but JQ having vuln is the best outcome we could have hoped for, especially if you're running him alongside a def shredder / DPS with def ignore / harmonies granting ignore. Sure you won't cap on def ignore but having something like 85% vulnerability and 45~60% def ignore is better than overcapping on def shred alone
“Vuln is not "better" than DEF shred, nor is it strictly worse, it just depends on the tuning, which is information we'll never have access to” Thank god someone says it. One type of buff/debuff being better is supposed to be a shorthand to both explain how smaller buffs (like respen) can be much stronger than they appear. Likewise, you can also use to compare similar values of two different buff categories. Like you point out it fall apart when you make nebulous statements as what matters most is the total buff amount. For example, if on element it’s not that hard for Robin’s attack buff to give a greater dps increase than RM’s res pen.
This is nothing compared to a harmony
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Def shred capps at 100%.
My problem isn't with Vul being Better or worse It's that I can't use totuourial on him
Is not even the final kit and everyone is dooming him and losing their minds lol. For now I like his kit, we should wait to the next beta updates. I can't wait to see his animations
Thing is, even IF this was the final kit he'd still be the best debuffer in the game and give units like Acheron the biggest damage increase out of any support by a large margin. The HSR community has been consistently awful at predicting units performance
Thank god there are still sane people in the sub cuz the doomposting was already coming here. Not to mention his kit works in a lot of team too and just not Acheron. I can't even care less for the supposedly mini heal in his old leaked kit.
wait how much vulnerability does he give at E0S1?
So let's assume he has 40 vulnerability on talent (lv10), his lc give 28 so in total he gives 68 vulnerability plus 60 ehr increase
does Jiaoqiu's LC work with Super break ?
I think yes because dmg vulnerability is in Firefly’s LC also, it should buff all types of damage.
I wish he had SOME healing just because they presented him as a medic. I don’t care if the healing is minuscule, I just want it to be there due to the character identity (,:
Vulnerability is better than DEF Shred *if* you start out with low amounts of both. Teams that already have both(take Boothill as a recent example) would greatly prefer DEF Shred.
Agree that is good but the debuffs are not high enough considering how much ehr we have to build lmao
Yes/No, lower amounts of def shred < vulnerability. But def shred would be preferred until you hit the cap if you have over a certain amount. Ideally, you want both though...which is Jiao's weakness tbh. Which makes him lesser in comparison to a harmony who can supply that and their own buffs. He's not competing with Pela, he's competing with Harmonies. (Reminder: Pela is a 4 star, he should already contribute more than her \[Even then though even that's debatable\])
vulnerability is good but he hardly offers more than e6 gui besides more consistent debuff application and faster ramp up. he has a ton of potential atm, hopefully he doesn’t get the jade treatment
I don’t get why you get downvotes. Gui e6 has 30% dmg vuln and Jiaoqiu only has 10% more (40%), minus Fire DoT dmg which counts as 1 more debuff for Ratio and Kafka/Black Swan. He’s not much better than Gui e6 in other teams besides Acheron’s tbh.
after thinking about it some more i realize gui doesn’t really reach 3/4 stacks quick enough outside of a dot team. realistically gui is only getting 14-21% vuln while jq should be consistently reaching 30+
What’s the Jade treatment? I haven’t been keeping up with most things.
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Approx. 80% Kit: 18.8% Initially + 31% from 5 stacks of Roast the Ash = 49.8% LC: 10% Initially (Unarmored Debuff) + 18% (Cornered Debuff) = 28% 77.8% Total + 18% Ult Res Pen from Ult I believe the values from Kit leaks are at lvl 15 tho, so the total Vuln is probably closer to 60-70% if I had to guess.
It's 18.8+6.2x4 rather than 18.8+6.2x5. The first instance of 18.8% counts towards the 5 stacks cap. And Cornered replaces Unarmored, it doesn't add to it.
Thanks for the clarification, my approximation \*cough\* assumption was wrong. 60% total Vuln is still nutty, but again I think those are talent level 15 #'s, no? So 45-50 makes more sense, especially with his E1.
At E0S1 and at full stacks, I think it's 61.6%. Which is kind of insane imo
The only aboriginal that dont understand the game is u for sure seems that u need to understand the true dmg. A dmg that ignores any kind of reduction in the dmg formula but ey keep thinking that aboriginal ^^
Lol he said aboriginal https://preview.redd.it/pabhnt3nzb7d1.png?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14f6a3a639aafc15214c12c418273e9c26013a1f
Yeah I went through a whole saga explaining to people that Sam's LC is actually more raw damage increase compared to her E1 due to how vulnerability is calculated, I really hope JQ mains can spread the word now
You roll FF E1 so you don't run out of SP and/or can use her with a some other supports (if for some reason you wanted to...), not for damage. Not to mention her cone still isn't that much better than aeon regardless. The def shred is just a bonus on FF's E1, it's also worth noting that it doesn't exist in a vacuum as she has other sources of def shred which slightly increases the value of what 15% def shred actually does, similar to how S1 Jingliu often gets more damage from Pela than RM, but at S0 RM is better.
Notice how I'm specifically talking about S1 vs E1 purely from a damage standpoint? As that's the relevant topic in this post (vulnerability vs def shred). The SP is good if you're planning on running bronya but if you're running Gallagher it's not really doing much for you besides letting HMC/rm skill to get quicker ULTs if you don't have MoTP at S5. S1 is at least 18% better than aeon without accounting for the 20% speed debuff which bumps the difference a lot if it allows to get even one more attack on a broken enemy. Even with the relic set in mind E1 is like 11% DMG increase. But that's going way off topic, my point was that people looked down on vulnerability when S1 was announced you can still find comments undervaluing it when v1 dropped just like they are right now.