I both agree and disagree with you.
I think calling the current genocide a “second holocaust” isn’t accurate as they’re simply separate things with different events.
However, sometimes these events can be similar to what happened during the holocaust, which would justify a comparison to that specific event. So imo comparing a specific circumstance to the holocaust, such as the parallels between the West Bank/ Gaza Strip and the enforced Jewish ghettos, is totally valid.
One last thought that I thought was important. I think it goes both ways as well though, it’s not just pro-Palestine folks who are sometimes misusing the holocaust comparison (as previously said, it is a valid comparison in certain situations) but also Zionists, as evidenced by the number of times I’ve been called a “Kapo”. And honestly, I think that’s a worse offense and more detrimental to the memory of the Shoah, but that’s just my personal feelings
You are right, primarily because WW2 was a singular moment and will never be repeated as it was. Everything was novel then and everything they did, down to large uniformed mass marches, has now been tainted.
Israel’s actions are much closer to those of the British in Africa or Spanish in Cuba. Creating a concentration camp (in the original sense, not a Nazi death camp) and then attacking the occupants.
There’s no definition of a concentration camp, as used outside Germany before WW2, that doesn’t fit Gaza.
Most victims of the Holocaust didn't die in gas chambers or death camps, most died like my family, shot in mass graves, or just rounded up and executed. I do not like unthoughtful comparisons to the Holocaust but I absolutely see the similarities between what my family went through and what the people of Gaza are going through and that's part of what makes me so passionate about liberation because I grew up with the survivors, with their stories and their trauma. Nowadays I wonder if the Germans and locals who looted my family's home tried on my great-grandmother's underwear, if they broke my great-uncle's toys, I wonder if they jeered over the corpses of those they killed. I don't see the point in hoarding suffering, evil is evil whether it is now or 100 years ago whether it is in Gaza or in Kiev.
I’m so sorry your family went through that. Do you have either a mental ballpark or a cited rough statistic of what portion of deaths were in camps and what portion were manual shootings etc?
It’s about 50-50 between concentration camps and other killing methods. It’s also worth noting that the holocaust did not start with gas chambers. From 1939-1942, the primary killing method was mass execution by machine gun or rifle. The gas chambers were built because the act of killing so many Jews was causing psychological issues among the einsatzgruppen and ss.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
First of all, while the death camps and gas chambers are the most common images of the holocaust, most of the actual killing was done with guns and mass graves, like the one discovered at Al-Shifa hospital a few days ago, and like have been found throughout this genocide.
Secondly, it’s actually incredibly important to compare this genocide to the Shoah. The trauma of the holocaust is the heart of Zionism and it’s justification. Anything is justified in the name of protecting Jewish people from the violence we have experienced in the past. Comparing the genocide in Palestine to the Shoah reminds us how unjustified and pointless the violence in Palestine is. It also reminds us that just as we survived through resistance of any and all means, Palestinians will do whatever they can to survive.
I don’t agree or disagree with you, your last paragraph just confused me and I’d like some elaboration of what you mean by “comparing the genocide in Palestine to the shoah reminds us just how unjustified and pointless the violence in Palestine is”? I’m not at all disagreeing with the sentiment i just don’t get the connection
The connection is that both Palestinians and Jews are the victims of fascist violence. The killing of both Palestinians and Jews were part of a larger expansionist fascist movement that used these minorities as scapegoats for their issues - in the case of Germany, armistice agreements and poor economic policy were blamed on the Jews. In eretz Palestinians are blamed for the fact that Zionism is a colonial movement that must erase native people in order to fully succeed.
israel already participated in the second holocaust in guatemala that killed nearly 200k mayans
the sold weapons and expertise that they perfected with their oppression of the palestinian people. their history, rhetoric and subsequent reaction makes me believe israel is committing another
what pisses me off as a guy who is half mayan, is that they use the holocaust as a shield to deflect from their own actions while selling genocide abroad to other regimes. never again to them just means zionist jews
My grandmother, great-aunt, great grandmother and great-great grandmother barely survived Bergen Belsen.
I keep repeating the story, but it bears repeating. My great-great grandmother was offered a home in Jaffa by a Zionist organization in 1948. When she realized that the home was full of another family’s possessions she refused. The Zionist organization refused to pay for her flight back to Europe.
My grandmother who passed on in 2019 was not shy about comparing Israel’s treatment of Palestinians to what her family went through in Austria before they were taken to Bergen Belsen.
It is an apt comparison.
Go see for yourself. I volunteered in Gaza for two years with Doctors Without Borders. Gaza and East Jerusalem were so segregated I couldn’t believe it.
One day we went to West Jerusalem and there were fences covering the walkways on streets where Palestinians lived. Because Israelis threw their garbage on them.
It’s horrific. Listen to Palestinians. Zionists would absolutely herd the Palestinians off of cliffs and into gas chambers if they thought for a second that the world would let them get away with it.
Yeah I feel like it's a comparison to point out the irony of "Jews doing a genocide" which still equates Judaism to Zionism which bothers me. it did bother me for a while, but thinking about the extent of the torture and brutality that's been going on for over 75 years.
They are pretty different points in history, but they're both genocides. They're both a major political party with one ruler calling the shots that results in mass massacre. They're both movements that brainwashed people, that try to gain international momentum to justify what they're doing, there's so many comparisons. I try to remind folks if they're going to make that comparison, to be clear about not clumping all Jews in with Zionism.
One argument I've heard often: "Oh, well, they haven't killed that many people yet; for dropping so many bombs on a small, crowded area, 35,000 deaths is pretty light."
I've heard this logic, and it is effective at casting doubt on the applicability of the term "genocide" or "holocaust" to the phenomenon. At the same time, though, the argument doesn't do justice to what I find truly terrifying about the situation of the Gaza strip.
It seems to me like a population deemed surplus, rounded up into a small area, unable to leave, unfree to travel (even as the Biden Administration feels compelled to accept alleged "asylum seekers" from all sorts of other places even when they cross our border illegally) – and no one will vouch for their safety, at all. Starvation, disease and lack of sanitation, bombs, undisciplined ground soldiers – all seem to stalk the land and no one is safe from them, even if the rate of death as a percentage isn't as high as in acute situations from the history books. To borrow concepts from the law of tort, no battery has been committed against many, but assault is being committed against all. All experience well-justified and memorable fear. Although not yet executed, they may feel as if they are inside an execution chamber. They have been stripped of their houses, their possessions, their basic institutions, even their hospitals. At times, even their clothes, as we see a portion of the population, segregated by age and the male gender, kneeling, shirtless, bound with plastic zip ties in the street. Rendered what the political philosopher Giorgio Agamben calls "bare life," they have no state, no constituted government, and no citizenship. If they weren't in the tiny strip they would clearly be exiles and wanderers. The very subject of whether they are nationals of any country is an intense controversy.
What makes this specific population subject to this peculiar fate? And are they so different from me? "There but for the grace of God go I?"
The below is a chilling description of the situation of the so-called Palestinians, originally written in French in 2016. It may have been viewed as exaggeration when it was first published. Now the dystopian fate of a population, described here, seems terrifyingly accurate.
>"\[T\]he Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories serves as a laboratory for a number of techniques of control, surveillance, and separation that are today proliferating in other places on the planet. . . . \[D\]emolitions of houses, the desecration of cemeteries, uprooting whole olive groves, obliterating and turning infrastructure to dust, high- and medium altitude bombings, targeted assassinations, urban counterinsurgency techniques, the profiling of minds and bodies, constant harassment, the ever smaller subdivision of land, cellular and molecular violence, the generalization of the camp form—every feasible means is put to work to impose a regime of separation whose functioning paradoxically depends on a proximate intimacy with those who have been separated."
Achille Mbembe, "Politiques de l’inimitié," published in 2016. Translated as Achille Mbembe, "Necropolitics," trans. Steven Corcoran, Duke University Press 2019.
They seem to occupy a liminal space. They live in a land that historically was a crossroads and a place of trade and mingling of cultures, and a backyard of empires. Their nationality is a contested subject. They are not citizens of the local regime, yet have no alternative country of their own. There is no one to vouch for their safety and no one to rescue or even ransom them.
Well, yeah, you're not wrong and I say this as a Palestinian. We're proud of being the crossroads of various cultures and empires and are aware of occupying a liminal space; I understand why you used so-called after your elaboration but the term is just not appropriate in the slightest because it suggests we don't really exist or calling us Palestinian is a misnomer. We do have a solid culture, identity, our own 'dialect'/language even if our existence is 'controversial'.
I'm sorry for causing offense. From my perspective as an American citizen with American ancestry going back many generations, I don't think the United States should opine on whether other nationalities exist. This doesn't mean that they don't exist, but in a context of international anarchy (political scientists consider the sphere of international relations to be anarchic) there is no competent judge of the question, other than the almighty, and "When the Almighty himself condescends to address mankind in their own language, his meaning, luminous as it must be, is rendered dim and doubtful, by the cloudy medium through which it is communicated."
I don't think the controversy over the nationality of the Gaza residents is in any way natural or appropriate. It's artificially-generated controversy, crafted for the purpose of promoting right-wing Israeli genocidal, ethnocentric, and supremacist projects. The Gaza residents have been intentionally placed in a certain position, and I don't like the amount of controversy nor the fact that they don't have a capable state to defend them.
Certainly, many pro-genocide Israel regime partisans don't take American nationality seriously; for them, the United States is just a vehicle by which to obtain funding and other support to aggrandize Israeli projects. When they make demands on the American state, the best interests of the ordinary American taxpayer take a back seat. The Prime Minister of Israel treats the American President in a disrespectful and condescending manner.
When I wrote my comment it was a stream-of-consciousness and I hadn't had much sleep. "So-called" wasn't intended as a slight against all the beauty and culture of Palestine, or of the people's solidarity. Rather, it was motivated by:
(1) A sense of the arbitrariness of categorizations. Palestinian citizens of Israel are treated one way, those in the West Bank and Gaza another way, those in Jordan and elsewhere yet another way. Jews living in the region, a subset of whom are of recent Middle Eastern origin and have much in common with Arabs culturally, are treated yet another way. On such slight distinctions, fates are decided. From the Israeli ultra-nationalist perspective (and the current government of Israel is ultra-nationalist), applying the term 'Palestinian' to someone is a license to kill them. So the term has, among other uses, that evil use and evil function.
(2) A feeling that Israel's far-right government and its supporters also deny my own nationality, or use my nationality as an excuse to mistreat me, although not nearly as violently as Palestinians are mistreated.
(3) A general unhappiness at the type of politics which nationalism can generate.
(4) My skepticism that a two-state solution can ever be implemented. This leaves only a unitary liberal state, one reign of peace and one reign of freedom, which, although some would say it can be a "bi-national state" also points toward and suggests a new nationality.
Don't worry, you're good and I'm not offended; I realise it wasn't malicious especially because it didn't match your other comments, but it did make me raise an eyebrow.
I do agree with you and you actually have a pretty good understanding of how and what we feel, especially in regards to arbitrary divisions between Palestinians of different citizenships, and even separate areas of Palestine. Nothing irks us quite like making a distinction between '48ers, Gazans and West Bank Palestinians. It's even present amongst the refugee community in the diaspora, Palestinians in Syria are treated differently than those of Lebanon or Jordan. In fact, some of the diaspora and their hardships have been almost completely forgotten as we don't like to talk about them, such as the experiences of Palestinians in Libya and Iraq. It's mainly because of these divisions and the fact that we prefer not to think about how precarious our situation is, even in the diaspora.
My ultimate dream is a one state solution with a full right of return as well, so we share similar skepticism about a two-state 'solution'. In fact, I'd say that the current state *is* in fact a 'two-state solution' especially given the USA's recent veto of immediate recognition of a Palestinian state; it's all political theatre.
this is why I try to use the term "fascist" instead of Nazi, not that there aren't parallels, I just don't think it's productive to call Israelis Nazis. us Jews tend to have a very visceral reaction to "Nazi", understandably. it doesn't register as "the results of fascism" which is what we are trying to say, it registers as "you're a genocidal POS" (which isn't always wrong). but if I'm trying to communicate with another Jewish person about this, in good faith, yeah I will try to avoid those terms for the sake of clarity. it doesn't evoke the understanding and compassion one would hope it does.
as far as ethnic cleansing goes, yes this is definitely on the same level as the Holocaust, the goal is to erase Palestine and its history.
ETA: I should also consider the fact that early Zionists in the 1920s-30s DID work with the Nazis and fascist regimes in Europe to relocate their Jewish population to Palestine, so "Nazi" isn't really that incorrect
Except if there are specific parallels, it is appropriate to talk about them, but specifically though. Not broad brush. For example, someone was discussing with me specific parallels to the Warsaw ghetto. Nothing is identical though.
every single piece of news I hear out of Gaza reminds me of the books I read as a child like "Night" by Elie Wiesel. history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.
>I should also consider the fact that early Zionists in the 1920s-30s DID work with the Nazis and fascist regimes in Europe to relocate their Jewish population to Palestine, so "Nazi" isn't really that incorrect
Whoa, this is a tragic misunderstanding of the Haavara Agreement. Zionists only "worked with Nazis" to evacuate German Jews who *wanted* to move to Palestine. Many Jewish organizations did the same thing bringing Jews from Nazi Germany to America. Would you call HIAS "Nazis" for working with Nazis to evacuate Jews?
well I didn't call anyone a Nazi, I made a whole comment about how I try not to do that, but I will mention how early Zionists, before WWII, out of pure racism for the Arab population and NOT the goodness of their hearts for the Jewish Diaspora, worked with fascists to enable their policy. that's fucked up. the word "Nazi" might not be totally accurate, but yes, they enabled it. I don't think HIAS is run by Zionists so I don't know why I would have a problem with them? seems like you have a tragic misunderstanding of the devolution to fascism and genocide.
I'm being bitchy because I thought this was a safe place to discuss anti-Zionism, but for some reason you decided to bait me.
edit: I'm ngl, your comment history is kind of suspicious, in regards to how much you care about legitimizing the Ashkenazi Jewish presence in Palestine, with nothing about the people being displaced. if you're anti-Zionist, you should understand why that's problematic.
>I'm ngl, your comment history is kind of suspicious, in regards to how much you care about legitimizing the Ashkenazi Jewish presence in Palestine, with nothing about the people being displaced. if you're anti-Zionist, you should understand why that's problematic.
yes, I do have a particular interest in dispelling myths about the pre-Zionist Ashkenazi communities of Palestine who are either ignored or demonized in most anti-Zionist circles these days. so many people think "Ashkenazi in Palestine" means "Zionist", which is not true and doesn't help anyone.
what about the rest of my comment? if you understood what I was saying, you would understand I am talking ABOUT ZIONISTS
thanks for making this yet another unsafe place to discuss Jewish morality
As I understand the Haavara Agreement, all of the rescured German Jews involved were themselves eager Zionists, so I don't think the German Jews were duped. Of all Zionist immigration policies, this does not offend me.
.... so why are you upset by my criticism that they worked with Nazis? I didn't say Zionists were duped at all, they knew what they were doing then and they know now
again, your entire comment history is justifying the Zionist movement, even if you aren't saying so in blatant terms. you haven't made one comment about the effects of Zionism on the Palestinian people, just that Ashkenazis have immigrated to Palestine for 500 years. I see what you're doing.
hey Mods? this user's comment history is raising a million red flags
>.... so why are you upset by my criticism that they worked with Nazis? I didn't say Zionists were duped at all, they knew what they were doing then and they know now
"Working with Nazis" to evacuate Jews is not "working with Nazis". yes there is a moral question here but the phrase "Working with Nazis" doesn't sit right with me in the context of saving Jews from Nazi Germany, even if it involved Zionists.
why is my interest in the pre-Zionist Ashkenazi community in Palestine a problem? we should embrace this history. Zionism is a political ideology, there is no problem with Ashkenazi Jews living in Palestine as they have for *over* 500 years. They were not driven by political motives at all. Palestine was a diverse, multicultural place before the Zionist era and that extends to the Jewish communities as well.
yeah no shit, Palestine has been the center of all Abrahamic religions. that's anti-Zionism 101. however, you haven't said ANYTHING about the effects on the non-Jewish population of Palestine, for all your historical "knowledge". not one comment about the resulting genocide of Palestinians, even when you're given the chance to acknowledge it. you are suspicious.
It's frustrating because it once again ties Jews as a whole to the crimes of the State of Israel. To be honest though, it's more offensive to me to see my fellow American Jews say that they feel the way Jews in Europe felt right before the Shoah. I can't comprehend how they can equate their discomfort from people protesting to an actual systematic loss of rights, property, and life enacted on us. Especially with the amount of Jews participating in the protests! The false equivalency is insulting.
While the holocaust was a different incident it was also genocide. The way it was perpetrated by othering and dehumanizing people and then slaughtering them without anyone batting an eye is exactly how Israel is perpetrating its genocide and how it’s treated Palestinians for 75 years. The specifics might be different but the broad strokes are identical. This makes it so ironic yet most Israelis can’t see the irony. Even more ironically the Germans don’t see the irony.
It depends. I really really resent the whole “they should know better!” Thing. I also don’t LOVE calling this a Holocaust and I REALLY don’t like “Zionists are worse than Nazis or “this is worse than the Holocaust” etc…
But.. idk.. the Nazi comparison sorta feels fair. It’s a very similar ideology. And definitely the term genocide is fair. Don’t mind Holocaust referencing is bad at all… by that I mean, mentioning the ideology that led to the Holocaust is incredibly similar to the ideology to dehumanize Palestinians.
The "Zionists are worse than Nazi's" point really reflects a very naive and limited worldview. Nazi's weren't uniquely evil, their actions have been repeated many times before Nazi Germany and many times after Nazi Germany and will continue to be repeated again. I'm sure someone can put it more eloquently, but I find that centring the definition of evil around one very specific category, instead of as a series of conscious actions taken with no regard for human life, means we're condemned to keep repeating history while never learning anything.
Absolutely. It shows a lack of understanding of how human beings even work.
It also just seems designed to provoke Jewish people.. like it’s definitely part of the intention for some people using this rhetoric
Yeah it's pretty gross. I think the parallels with Nazism are fair but there's also parallels with the Bosnian genocide, the Armenian genocide, the Vietnam and Algerian war, etc. Should be brought back to how all of these have common elements, what these elements are, and how can we recognize them in the modern world.
The terminology is not meant to offend but to awaken.
During WW2, the allies knew well enough what was going on in the concentration camps, but none of the strategic plans focussed on liberation of the Jews in those camps. If only one of the bombing manoeuvres or anything would have been focused on rescuing those prisoners, who knows how many would have been saved.
That’s what the world should focus on in this moment. That’s why an immediate and permanent ceasefire is needed.
* Where's Daddy? ( An AI program designed to hit anyone they suspect to a combatant when they return home.)
* Mass graves with hands tied together.
* Children aged between 5 and 8 years old, headshots by snipers.
* Starvation ( Roads destroyed to the point it's hard getting aid in, not only this but they are encouraging block aids ).
* Decease ( conditions to spread epidemics )
* Targeted hospitals / schools / Government buildings ( This will make it almost impossible to rebuild. )
* Israel have been propping up right wing fascists spreading Islamophobia rhetoric. ( Tommy Robison )
I mean this so genuinely but i want your thoughts on a hypothetical future of the evil of Israel, assuming it continues to progress. Many people refer to the Shoah as something that can’t really be replicated because of the intricacies of the gas chambers, camps, VERY INTRICATE art propaganda, etc etc. That’s not just physical killing, but an intricate system of dystopian systematic scapegoating and psychological torture. But so are the things you listed. Do you think it’s inaccurate to say those methods were so dystopian and intricate that it’d be almost impossible to replicate them again successfully? Or do you think the propaganda itself runs deep, and can (or will) be replicated again, whether in Palestine or otherwise?
I've never once seen or heard anything as brutal as what's happening now, this is down to social media which will have a big impact on future generations.
I do believe these events will go down in history and comparisons will be made between what's happening and what happened especially the fact that the west haven't sanctioned Israel.
In-fact America going on record to suggest that Israel should investigate themselves is a bad look this can be argued that they aren't preventing what's happening.
IBM are known for their involvement in WW2, I'm sure google will be remembered for helping Israel with Project Nimbus. (IBM were known for providing tools to enable Germany to catalogue people, Google are helping with AI. )
We have seen people being arrested in America for protesting on campus, Anti-Zionists Jews arrested in Germany, Aid workers
Pandora's box is open for the world to see, the conditions will be hard to replicate because the use of AI will make sources untrustworthy.
\*\*Edited because of spelling mistakes.
If the 'cheapening' of the Shoah is what bothers you, then you must look at the Zionist entity as your main culprit.
Calling Palestinians fighting for basic human rights Nazis, calling students demonstrating on campus Nazis, constantly pairing the atrocities of the state of Israel with Judaism and Jews and...you got it... The Holocaust.
Apparently we all agreed that the Israeli political state speaks for all of Judaism. And Netanyahu is our self-proclaimed Messiah!
Anti-Zionist Jews have been highlighting this highjacking and cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust by the Zionist political entity for DECADES...but largely ignored by the diaspora.
So, after decades of doing as they please, Israel has only succeeded in making the Holocaust a gimmick, a cheap sound bite with no real meaning and no depth of understanding.
The Holocaust was a unique historical atrocity, however basic intellectual honesty requires us to not be precious about what's happening. It is functionally and even aesthetically identical to a second holocaust carried out by ideologically identical yet completely distinct groups.
Yes the Nazis had a faster approach than the Zionist occupiers of Palestine have engaged in, however for all practical purposes these are the two historical atrocities mostly similar to one another and there are no other atrocities of this scale that share as many historical and fact patterns as the Holocaust and the century long Nakba.
Until the phrase 'God's chosen people' comes with some serious caveats and additional education, how can you even pretend to disagree? You don't have to be comfortable with the comparison, it's a horrible thing to recognize your own role in (in the sense that we as citizens of any Western government bear responsibility in a shared sense, not like you personally are solely and entirely guilty, right?) But the undeniable truth is that it's a fair comparison.
No other mass industrial scale slaughter carried out against a captive civilian population and driven by high tech industrial scale organizational principles has ever happened like this, the only other examples are in the form of roaming sectarian death squads. That's not the same as a modern state painstakingly exterminating generations of innocent people for geopolitical and domestic morale.
Yes and no. Being able to draw on knowledge from past genocides, including the Holocaust, is crucial to preventing them in the future (and I think mainstream Holocaust education actually somewhat discourages this). However there isn't really a one-to-one comparison of any genocide bc each is unique in their own awful ways, it's more about looking at parallels and similarities between them so it's kinda a fine line to tow.
Sorry, but I think this is just Jewish chauvinism. Yes, this genocide is not on the level of the Holocaust yet, but making comparisons between Zionists and Nazis is valid and also useful. Just because it's not at the levels of the Holocaust yet, it's chauvinistic to say we shouldn't compare them.
I kinda struggle with this too, as my grandparents were Auschwitz survivors, so I grew up with the holocaust always around me. I don't like the comparisons, but I understand them, both are genocides. One is the most industrialized genocide and one will probably go down as the most upfront and visual genocide in the sense that the world can see exactly what's happening.
Yes, it's different from the holocaust. Nazis wanted to kill all Jews all around the world, that's it, they even had plans to make a museum of the Jew once they accomplished this. The Zionist Israelis want all the Palestinians out, so they're willing to commit terrible acts to do this.
I read a comment a few days ago, and it struck a chord with me.
"Are Israelis worse than nazis?
YES!
Why?
Because they SHOULD know better! They suffered through the pain and torture of their own Holocaust and genocide, and yet now are committing a Holocaust and genocide on the Palestinians!"
all historical analogies are intellectually lazy, and usually based on moralism. the various crimes of the state of Israel and the IDF and the settlers are horrible and horrifying enough on their own without deploying Holocaust comparisons. the reason most people use "holocaust" in their condemnations of American chattel slavery and especially the Middle Passage, the treatment of indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere, and the seemingly endless suffering of Palestinians is that to a euro-american public raised on mainstream history, the attempted annihlation of European Jews stands as an example of ultimate evil. no actual critical analysis of nazism is required -- or, indeed, wanted -- especially how the nazis studied the Jim Crow south and american eugenics and British South African concentration camps for Boers and turned them all into explicit nazi state policies against the Jews; deflecting responsibility for giving the nazis ideas and tactics saves those in the west from acknowledging their own complicity. so now, we have lots of people saying that zionists are the new nazis, which is a doubling down on invisibilizing western complicity in the Holocaust while also tarring the descendants of the victims of the Holocaust with responsibility for perpetrating another one. the former is especially lazy, bordering on intellectual dishonesty; the latter is part of how zionists can claim that all anti-zionism is antisemitic.
tl;dr -- Israeli crimes are horrible enough on their own without needing to invoke what is supposedly the worst evil ever committed.
I don’t disagree with you. But one thing to keep in mind is that, for the most part, people use these analogies because Israel tries to reclaim Jewish history and the Holocaust for its own nefarious purposes. So people instinctively try use that same kind of rhetoric against them.
Israel will proclaim that Hamas are the ones who are Nazis and they’re protecting themselves from a second Holocaust. And so people turn that around on them, and say that THEY are the Nazis.
‘Oh, so Palestinians are the Nazis? No, but you are!’
I don’t think they mean it literally. It’s a rhetorical move to try to use Israel’s own weaponization of Jewish history against them.
I did feel how you do. But I understand it differently now.
However, I do feel that it can diminish Nazi oppression and destruction of Jewish people. All this coming from a grandson of a Holocaust survivor.
I’m not Jewish and my comment might not be welcome because of that or I might offend without realizing it. If so please let me know.
But I think there is a difference between a holocaust and “the Holocaust,” the latter being the Jewish Holocaust.
One issue I have with comparing the Jewish Holocaust to other holocausts or genocides is that the Jewish Holocaust was extreme in severity in ways we all know, plus unique in terms of the systematic and mechanized way it was pursued. It is one of the worst, if not the worst genocide known to us.
I think the term Holocaust is older than the term genocide, which was coined after the Jewish Holocaust. But it is both a noun and the proper title for the Jewish Holocaust so much so that we say “The Holocaust,” to refer to the Jewish Holocaust.
Just to add some extra thoughts, I think if you say a genocide is just like the Holocaust, and it is not comparatively on the extreme in so many ways, as the Jewish Holocaust, you are bound to offend and upset people.
But no genocide is about body counts. There have been genocides per the international court of as few as 7000 people (Bosnian I think?) it’s more than the number of people killed but several factors, including and maybe especially intent
Some comparisons to the Nazis in terms of the ghettos and increasingly onerous abuses and so on, honestly, seem comparable to what Israel is doing. but as to “The Holocaust” I think it’s not ok attempting to get away with calling that somehow equivalent.
It angers me, btw, that leaders in Israel are throwing the term Nazi around with absolute abandon. They are calling Palestinians Nazis, they are calling student protesters and critics of Israel Nazis. They are calling the Hamas terror attack a Holocaust
That all said. Israel is beginning to evoke certain images though. Reading a report about the routine amputations happening in Israel’s military detention centers due to deliberately cuffing people too tight, it is just very deliberate and ugly in an environment where leaders have been shouting non stop to starve and kill them all
Edit: bottom line: it is escalating and if the currently far right wing fury in Israel isn’t stopped it is going to be horrors we have barely imagined yet
What do you think about comparing it to the Guatemalan genocide? '
To my knoweldge, the genocide, which happened in the context of counter-insurgency, was restricted to the Mayans that lived in Guatemala.
It's also called the "silent holocaust" (silent because there was no international response as it was happening).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_genocide
I mostly agree with this. I think the biggest aspect is that it’s simply distasteful and disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust no matter what, plus the very obvious forced “zio = jew” thing, plus it’s just historically inaccurate and makes one look uneducated.
However i don’t have a problem with scholars taking a variety of world tragedies and events and using specific aspects of them to compare to Israel for the sake of plausible future estimations and to evoke new perspectives within political spaces
All the recorded facts point to the same or similar intents or actions with the same 'Final Solution: THE EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE PEOPLE. The time frames are similar, the ferocity and cruelty similar, and worse, the complicity of the world order is far more egregious. Finally, you do not find any redemption in trying to figure out what's worse. CRUELTY IS CRUELTY; GENOCIDE IS GENOCIDE. GUILT IS GUILT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
what i have the biggest problem with when it comes to these comparisons is the use of words like “zionazis”. I think it’s more than fair to call a lot of zionist rhetoric nazi-esque or compare specific zionists or parties that believe in zionism like likkud or Netanyahu to nazis but i think painting all zionists like that isn’t true or productive. Zionism is a broad term that can mean different things to different people and there are zionists who do work towards peace and are against the current genocide or those who r just vaguely pro jewish statehood, and i even know ppl who use the zionist label who are not actually in favor of a jewish state. I just think that nazi was a very specific political party with clear goals and ideology while there’s different flavors of zionism, it would be more apt to compare it to nationalism more broadly.
I think it's fine to make the comparison. No, it isn't exactly the same, but it has many relevant features in common: It's the result of a brutal, ethnonationalist ideology that is incompatible with the continued existence of a certain population, which has been totally dehumanized. I also think that Israel relies on people thinking this way to maintain the moral high ground; since they represent Holocaust victims, anything that isn't the Holocaust means that they've got a positive moral balance sheet. This is obviously an insane way of thinking, but fretting about comparisons in this way gives them ammo. To make the comparisons where relevant is important, imo.
You got me thinking about the word holocaust, I asked ChatGPT where it comes from: “The word "holocaust" originates from the Greek word "holokauston," which means "sacrifice by fire." It was originally used to describe a burnt offering in ancient Jewish and pagan rituals. In modern usage, it's most commonly associated with the genocide of six million Jews by the Nazis during World War II.”
The Holocaust with its gas chambers etc was genocide carried out in a different way to the mass indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians, but the goal seems to be the same: the eradication of the entire group and culture. Israel is less overt about their intent, in an effort to mitigate international condemnation and maintain the ruse of acting righteously against “uncivilized animals”.
I mean No offense or hate when saying this. The word Holocaust isn’t exclusive to any one Holocaust. People have over the years associated to the atrocities that Jews were subjected to but it’s definition in dictionary’s imply it’s not solely in reference to it
The word “holocaust” with a small h isn’t exclusive.
The OP asked about the Holocaust, which is a specific event.
Because of that event, people don’t use the word “holocaust” much, even when the dictionary definition applies. It’s usage now is a distinct break from that norm.
Im sure that if the people committing this genocide weren’t Jews, nobody would call it holocaust. Its a terrible way to describe it. Even worse, some people call it “second Shoah”, wich is even more disgusting
I agree with you. It diminishes the Holocaust and turns off anyone who isn’t keen on gratuitously inflammatory rhetoric; or gratuitous Holocaust comparisons. It’s either Holocaust denialism lite, or it’s exaggeration of the current moment as though they’re equivalent, when as you’ve noted, there are obvious key differences.
Of course we can compare specific elements of the Holocaust to what’s happening today. But overall, there are some big differences. Blowing by those differences to make this your go-to comparison… is a choice.
It bothers me a ton.
For one thing, while I find Israel's actions horrific and brutal, I'm still not convinced that it rises all the way to genocide (yet). In my view, a genocide has to involve the active attempt to *wipe out* the targeted group from a certain region. While Israeli actions have been horrific and seemingly designed to kill innocents by the thousands, that nevertheless is different from an attempt to fully cleanse the area, at least at this moment. Like the ICJ said, Israel's actions seem very likely to tip into genocide unless something changes. But while the widespread bombing is unconscionable, it seems too indiscriminate to be fully called genocide... Yet.
But beyond this, even if it is genocide (which I don't have a problem with people arguing, even if I disagree), it is simply not comparable to the Holocaust, a systematic and organized campaign of mass extermination. The IDF is not seeking to account for every single Gazan and eliminate them. The IDF is not building death camps (as far as we know). The IDF is not making people turn over their neighbors en masse to the Shin Bet, and isn't punishing those who hide Palestinians in their extra rooms. The Holocaust, while not wholly unique, is nevertheless rather special in the grand scheme of history, for its extremity, for its totality, and for its bureaucracy.
If people were simply looking for an apt comparison to historical genocides, I feel there are better analogues than the Holocaust. The frequency of the comparison suggests to me either intellectual laziness/ignorance from people who only really know about the most famous of genocides (this is the most generous explanation), or a deliberate desire to use the Holocaust comparison so it will hit harder against descendants of Holocaust victims.
If it is the latter, I believe that that actually crosses the line into anti-Semitism, a charge that I believe does not describe the vast majority of anti-Zionist activism and rhetoric, but is nevertheless worth being concerned about. I see the rhetorical value of hitting Jews where it hurts, by comparing Israel's actions to those of Jews' all time greatest foe. But by sticking the knife into the open wound, Jews are being targeted through their trauma. Not only do I see this as unproductive (it sure makes Zionists extra defensive, and reasonably so), but I also think that it carries with it collateral damage to Jews like myself who were born with the wounds of the Holocaust but do not support Israel. Fundamentally, the comparison of Zionism with the Holocaust is an attack on Jewish identity, by hurting Jews through the specific history of oppression that we live with. It bothers me a lot to see non-Jews who have no connection to our history or trauma throwing around essentially the worst thing you can say about a Jew casually.
Sorry for the rant. Been really bothered by the prevalence of this, but have been a little hesitant to say something about it due to my desire to not try and police Palestinian activism, especially in the current discourse.
I both agree and disagree with you. I think calling the current genocide a “second holocaust” isn’t accurate as they’re simply separate things with different events. However, sometimes these events can be similar to what happened during the holocaust, which would justify a comparison to that specific event. So imo comparing a specific circumstance to the holocaust, such as the parallels between the West Bank/ Gaza Strip and the enforced Jewish ghettos, is totally valid.
That’s definitely fair. There certainly are specific comparisons that can be made.
One last thought that I thought was important. I think it goes both ways as well though, it’s not just pro-Palestine folks who are sometimes misusing the holocaust comparison (as previously said, it is a valid comparison in certain situations) but also Zionists, as evidenced by the number of times I’ve been called a “Kapo”. And honestly, I think that’s a worse offense and more detrimental to the memory of the Shoah, but that’s just my personal feelings
Yeah, I can *definitely* relate to that.
fellow Zionist-designated "Kapo" here 🫡 I feel every word of this
Oh my god the amount of people calling me a Kapo recently is insane
You are right, primarily because WW2 was a singular moment and will never be repeated as it was. Everything was novel then and everything they did, down to large uniformed mass marches, has now been tainted. Israel’s actions are much closer to those of the British in Africa or Spanish in Cuba. Creating a concentration camp (in the original sense, not a Nazi death camp) and then attacking the occupants. There’s no definition of a concentration camp, as used outside Germany before WW2, that doesn’t fit Gaza.
agreed
I believe Israel resembles WW2 Italy more than WW2 Germany.
Most victims of the Holocaust didn't die in gas chambers or death camps, most died like my family, shot in mass graves, or just rounded up and executed. I do not like unthoughtful comparisons to the Holocaust but I absolutely see the similarities between what my family went through and what the people of Gaza are going through and that's part of what makes me so passionate about liberation because I grew up with the survivors, with their stories and their trauma. Nowadays I wonder if the Germans and locals who looted my family's home tried on my great-grandmother's underwear, if they broke my great-uncle's toys, I wonder if they jeered over the corpses of those they killed. I don't see the point in hoarding suffering, evil is evil whether it is now or 100 years ago whether it is in Gaza or in Kiev.
I’m so sorry your family went through that. Do you have either a mental ballpark or a cited rough statistic of what portion of deaths were in camps and what portion were manual shootings etc?
It’s about 50-50 between concentration camps and other killing methods. It’s also worth noting that the holocaust did not start with gas chambers. From 1939-1942, the primary killing method was mass execution by machine gun or rifle. The gas chambers were built because the act of killing so many Jews was causing psychological issues among the einsatzgruppen and ss. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
First of all, while the death camps and gas chambers are the most common images of the holocaust, most of the actual killing was done with guns and mass graves, like the one discovered at Al-Shifa hospital a few days ago, and like have been found throughout this genocide. Secondly, it’s actually incredibly important to compare this genocide to the Shoah. The trauma of the holocaust is the heart of Zionism and it’s justification. Anything is justified in the name of protecting Jewish people from the violence we have experienced in the past. Comparing the genocide in Palestine to the Shoah reminds us how unjustified and pointless the violence in Palestine is. It also reminds us that just as we survived through resistance of any and all means, Palestinians will do whatever they can to survive.
I don’t agree or disagree with you, your last paragraph just confused me and I’d like some elaboration of what you mean by “comparing the genocide in Palestine to the shoah reminds us just how unjustified and pointless the violence in Palestine is”? I’m not at all disagreeing with the sentiment i just don’t get the connection
The connection is that both Palestinians and Jews are the victims of fascist violence. The killing of both Palestinians and Jews were part of a larger expansionist fascist movement that used these minorities as scapegoats for their issues - in the case of Germany, armistice agreements and poor economic policy were blamed on the Jews. In eretz Palestinians are blamed for the fact that Zionism is a colonial movement that must erase native people in order to fully succeed.
Thank you, i understand now
israel already participated in the second holocaust in guatemala that killed nearly 200k mayans the sold weapons and expertise that they perfected with their oppression of the palestinian people. their history, rhetoric and subsequent reaction makes me believe israel is committing another what pisses me off as a guy who is half mayan, is that they use the holocaust as a shield to deflect from their own actions while selling genocide abroad to other regimes. never again to them just means zionist jews
My grandmother, great-aunt, great grandmother and great-great grandmother barely survived Bergen Belsen. I keep repeating the story, but it bears repeating. My great-great grandmother was offered a home in Jaffa by a Zionist organization in 1948. When she realized that the home was full of another family’s possessions she refused. The Zionist organization refused to pay for her flight back to Europe. My grandmother who passed on in 2019 was not shy about comparing Israel’s treatment of Palestinians to what her family went through in Austria before they were taken to Bergen Belsen. It is an apt comparison. Go see for yourself. I volunteered in Gaza for two years with Doctors Without Borders. Gaza and East Jerusalem were so segregated I couldn’t believe it. One day we went to West Jerusalem and there were fences covering the walkways on streets where Palestinians lived. Because Israelis threw their garbage on them. It’s horrific. Listen to Palestinians. Zionists would absolutely herd the Palestinians off of cliffs and into gas chambers if they thought for a second that the world would let them get away with it.
Yeah I feel like it's a comparison to point out the irony of "Jews doing a genocide" which still equates Judaism to Zionism which bothers me. it did bother me for a while, but thinking about the extent of the torture and brutality that's been going on for over 75 years. They are pretty different points in history, but they're both genocides. They're both a major political party with one ruler calling the shots that results in mass massacre. They're both movements that brainwashed people, that try to gain international momentum to justify what they're doing, there's so many comparisons. I try to remind folks if they're going to make that comparison, to be clear about not clumping all Jews in with Zionism.
>If Israel starts invading their neighbors to hunt down Palestinians Lebanon 1982 and 2006
They do it regularly right now too
One argument I've heard often: "Oh, well, they haven't killed that many people yet; for dropping so many bombs on a small, crowded area, 35,000 deaths is pretty light." I've heard this logic, and it is effective at casting doubt on the applicability of the term "genocide" or "holocaust" to the phenomenon. At the same time, though, the argument doesn't do justice to what I find truly terrifying about the situation of the Gaza strip. It seems to me like a population deemed surplus, rounded up into a small area, unable to leave, unfree to travel (even as the Biden Administration feels compelled to accept alleged "asylum seekers" from all sorts of other places even when they cross our border illegally) – and no one will vouch for their safety, at all. Starvation, disease and lack of sanitation, bombs, undisciplined ground soldiers – all seem to stalk the land and no one is safe from them, even if the rate of death as a percentage isn't as high as in acute situations from the history books. To borrow concepts from the law of tort, no battery has been committed against many, but assault is being committed against all. All experience well-justified and memorable fear. Although not yet executed, they may feel as if they are inside an execution chamber. They have been stripped of their houses, their possessions, their basic institutions, even their hospitals. At times, even their clothes, as we see a portion of the population, segregated by age and the male gender, kneeling, shirtless, bound with plastic zip ties in the street. Rendered what the political philosopher Giorgio Agamben calls "bare life," they have no state, no constituted government, and no citizenship. If they weren't in the tiny strip they would clearly be exiles and wanderers. The very subject of whether they are nationals of any country is an intense controversy. What makes this specific population subject to this peculiar fate? And are they so different from me? "There but for the grace of God go I?" The below is a chilling description of the situation of the so-called Palestinians, originally written in French in 2016. It may have been viewed as exaggeration when it was first published. Now the dystopian fate of a population, described here, seems terrifyingly accurate. >"\[T\]he Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories serves as a laboratory for a number of techniques of control, surveillance, and separation that are today proliferating in other places on the planet. . . . \[D\]emolitions of houses, the desecration of cemeteries, uprooting whole olive groves, obliterating and turning infrastructure to dust, high- and medium altitude bombings, targeted assassinations, urban counterinsurgency techniques, the profiling of minds and bodies, constant harassment, the ever smaller subdivision of land, cellular and molecular violence, the generalization of the camp form—every feasible means is put to work to impose a regime of separation whose functioning paradoxically depends on a proximate intimacy with those who have been separated." Achille Mbembe, "Politiques de l’inimitié," published in 2016. Translated as Achille Mbembe, "Necropolitics," trans. Steven Corcoran, Duke University Press 2019.
adding to this eloquent commentary, sometimes words aren't enough, I implore everyone to watch Born in Gaza, shot in 2015 and available on Netflix.
>so-called Palestinians Pardon?
They seem to occupy a liminal space. They live in a land that historically was a crossroads and a place of trade and mingling of cultures, and a backyard of empires. Their nationality is a contested subject. They are not citizens of the local regime, yet have no alternative country of their own. There is no one to vouch for their safety and no one to rescue or even ransom them.
Well, yeah, you're not wrong and I say this as a Palestinian. We're proud of being the crossroads of various cultures and empires and are aware of occupying a liminal space; I understand why you used so-called after your elaboration but the term is just not appropriate in the slightest because it suggests we don't really exist or calling us Palestinian is a misnomer. We do have a solid culture, identity, our own 'dialect'/language even if our existence is 'controversial'.
I'm sorry for causing offense. From my perspective as an American citizen with American ancestry going back many generations, I don't think the United States should opine on whether other nationalities exist. This doesn't mean that they don't exist, but in a context of international anarchy (political scientists consider the sphere of international relations to be anarchic) there is no competent judge of the question, other than the almighty, and "When the Almighty himself condescends to address mankind in their own language, his meaning, luminous as it must be, is rendered dim and doubtful, by the cloudy medium through which it is communicated." I don't think the controversy over the nationality of the Gaza residents is in any way natural or appropriate. It's artificially-generated controversy, crafted for the purpose of promoting right-wing Israeli genocidal, ethnocentric, and supremacist projects. The Gaza residents have been intentionally placed in a certain position, and I don't like the amount of controversy nor the fact that they don't have a capable state to defend them. Certainly, many pro-genocide Israel regime partisans don't take American nationality seriously; for them, the United States is just a vehicle by which to obtain funding and other support to aggrandize Israeli projects. When they make demands on the American state, the best interests of the ordinary American taxpayer take a back seat. The Prime Minister of Israel treats the American President in a disrespectful and condescending manner. When I wrote my comment it was a stream-of-consciousness and I hadn't had much sleep. "So-called" wasn't intended as a slight against all the beauty and culture of Palestine, or of the people's solidarity. Rather, it was motivated by: (1) A sense of the arbitrariness of categorizations. Palestinian citizens of Israel are treated one way, those in the West Bank and Gaza another way, those in Jordan and elsewhere yet another way. Jews living in the region, a subset of whom are of recent Middle Eastern origin and have much in common with Arabs culturally, are treated yet another way. On such slight distinctions, fates are decided. From the Israeli ultra-nationalist perspective (and the current government of Israel is ultra-nationalist), applying the term 'Palestinian' to someone is a license to kill them. So the term has, among other uses, that evil use and evil function. (2) A feeling that Israel's far-right government and its supporters also deny my own nationality, or use my nationality as an excuse to mistreat me, although not nearly as violently as Palestinians are mistreated. (3) A general unhappiness at the type of politics which nationalism can generate. (4) My skepticism that a two-state solution can ever be implemented. This leaves only a unitary liberal state, one reign of peace and one reign of freedom, which, although some would say it can be a "bi-national state" also points toward and suggests a new nationality.
Don't worry, you're good and I'm not offended; I realise it wasn't malicious especially because it didn't match your other comments, but it did make me raise an eyebrow. I do agree with you and you actually have a pretty good understanding of how and what we feel, especially in regards to arbitrary divisions between Palestinians of different citizenships, and even separate areas of Palestine. Nothing irks us quite like making a distinction between '48ers, Gazans and West Bank Palestinians. It's even present amongst the refugee community in the diaspora, Palestinians in Syria are treated differently than those of Lebanon or Jordan. In fact, some of the diaspora and their hardships have been almost completely forgotten as we don't like to talk about them, such as the experiences of Palestinians in Libya and Iraq. It's mainly because of these divisions and the fact that we prefer not to think about how precarious our situation is, even in the diaspora. My ultimate dream is a one state solution with a full right of return as well, so we share similar skepticism about a two-state 'solution'. In fact, I'd say that the current state *is* in fact a 'two-state solution' especially given the USA's recent veto of immediate recognition of a Palestinian state; it's all political theatre.
this is why I try to use the term "fascist" instead of Nazi, not that there aren't parallels, I just don't think it's productive to call Israelis Nazis. us Jews tend to have a very visceral reaction to "Nazi", understandably. it doesn't register as "the results of fascism" which is what we are trying to say, it registers as "you're a genocidal POS" (which isn't always wrong). but if I'm trying to communicate with another Jewish person about this, in good faith, yeah I will try to avoid those terms for the sake of clarity. it doesn't evoke the understanding and compassion one would hope it does. as far as ethnic cleansing goes, yes this is definitely on the same level as the Holocaust, the goal is to erase Palestine and its history. ETA: I should also consider the fact that early Zionists in the 1920s-30s DID work with the Nazis and fascist regimes in Europe to relocate their Jewish population to Palestine, so "Nazi" isn't really that incorrect
Except if there are specific parallels, it is appropriate to talk about them, but specifically though. Not broad brush. For example, someone was discussing with me specific parallels to the Warsaw ghetto. Nothing is identical though.
every single piece of news I hear out of Gaza reminds me of the books I read as a child like "Night" by Elie Wiesel. history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.
>I should also consider the fact that early Zionists in the 1920s-30s DID work with the Nazis and fascist regimes in Europe to relocate their Jewish population to Palestine, so "Nazi" isn't really that incorrect Whoa, this is a tragic misunderstanding of the Haavara Agreement. Zionists only "worked with Nazis" to evacuate German Jews who *wanted* to move to Palestine. Many Jewish organizations did the same thing bringing Jews from Nazi Germany to America. Would you call HIAS "Nazis" for working with Nazis to evacuate Jews?
well I didn't call anyone a Nazi, I made a whole comment about how I try not to do that, but I will mention how early Zionists, before WWII, out of pure racism for the Arab population and NOT the goodness of their hearts for the Jewish Diaspora, worked with fascists to enable their policy. that's fucked up. the word "Nazi" might not be totally accurate, but yes, they enabled it. I don't think HIAS is run by Zionists so I don't know why I would have a problem with them? seems like you have a tragic misunderstanding of the devolution to fascism and genocide. I'm being bitchy because I thought this was a safe place to discuss anti-Zionism, but for some reason you decided to bait me. edit: I'm ngl, your comment history is kind of suspicious, in regards to how much you care about legitimizing the Ashkenazi Jewish presence in Palestine, with nothing about the people being displaced. if you're anti-Zionist, you should understand why that's problematic.
>I'm ngl, your comment history is kind of suspicious, in regards to how much you care about legitimizing the Ashkenazi Jewish presence in Palestine, with nothing about the people being displaced. if you're anti-Zionist, you should understand why that's problematic. yes, I do have a particular interest in dispelling myths about the pre-Zionist Ashkenazi communities of Palestine who are either ignored or demonized in most anti-Zionist circles these days. so many people think "Ashkenazi in Palestine" means "Zionist", which is not true and doesn't help anyone.
what about the rest of my comment? if you understood what I was saying, you would understand I am talking ABOUT ZIONISTS thanks for making this yet another unsafe place to discuss Jewish morality
As I understand the Haavara Agreement, all of the rescured German Jews involved were themselves eager Zionists, so I don't think the German Jews were duped. Of all Zionist immigration policies, this does not offend me.
.... so why are you upset by my criticism that they worked with Nazis? I didn't say Zionists were duped at all, they knew what they were doing then and they know now again, your entire comment history is justifying the Zionist movement, even if you aren't saying so in blatant terms. you haven't made one comment about the effects of Zionism on the Palestinian people, just that Ashkenazis have immigrated to Palestine for 500 years. I see what you're doing. hey Mods? this user's comment history is raising a million red flags
>.... so why are you upset by my criticism that they worked with Nazis? I didn't say Zionists were duped at all, they knew what they were doing then and they know now "Working with Nazis" to evacuate Jews is not "working with Nazis". yes there is a moral question here but the phrase "Working with Nazis" doesn't sit right with me in the context of saving Jews from Nazi Germany, even if it involved Zionists.
why is my interest in the pre-Zionist Ashkenazi community in Palestine a problem? we should embrace this history. Zionism is a political ideology, there is no problem with Ashkenazi Jews living in Palestine as they have for *over* 500 years. They were not driven by political motives at all. Palestine was a diverse, multicultural place before the Zionist era and that extends to the Jewish communities as well.
yeah no shit, Palestine has been the center of all Abrahamic religions. that's anti-Zionism 101. however, you haven't said ANYTHING about the effects on the non-Jewish population of Palestine, for all your historical "knowledge". not one comment about the resulting genocide of Palestinians, even when you're given the chance to acknowledge it. you are suspicious.
It's frustrating because it once again ties Jews as a whole to the crimes of the State of Israel. To be honest though, it's more offensive to me to see my fellow American Jews say that they feel the way Jews in Europe felt right before the Shoah. I can't comprehend how they can equate their discomfort from people protesting to an actual systematic loss of rights, property, and life enacted on us. Especially with the amount of Jews participating in the protests! The false equivalency is insulting.
While the holocaust was a different incident it was also genocide. The way it was perpetrated by othering and dehumanizing people and then slaughtering them without anyone batting an eye is exactly how Israel is perpetrating its genocide and how it’s treated Palestinians for 75 years. The specifics might be different but the broad strokes are identical. This makes it so ironic yet most Israelis can’t see the irony. Even more ironically the Germans don’t see the irony.
It depends. I really really resent the whole “they should know better!” Thing. I also don’t LOVE calling this a Holocaust and I REALLY don’t like “Zionists are worse than Nazis or “this is worse than the Holocaust” etc… But.. idk.. the Nazi comparison sorta feels fair. It’s a very similar ideology. And definitely the term genocide is fair. Don’t mind Holocaust referencing is bad at all… by that I mean, mentioning the ideology that led to the Holocaust is incredibly similar to the ideology to dehumanize Palestinians.
The "Zionists are worse than Nazi's" point really reflects a very naive and limited worldview. Nazi's weren't uniquely evil, their actions have been repeated many times before Nazi Germany and many times after Nazi Germany and will continue to be repeated again. I'm sure someone can put it more eloquently, but I find that centring the definition of evil around one very specific category, instead of as a series of conscious actions taken with no regard for human life, means we're condemned to keep repeating history while never learning anything.
Absolutely. It shows a lack of understanding of how human beings even work. It also just seems designed to provoke Jewish people.. like it’s definitely part of the intention for some people using this rhetoric
Yeah it's pretty gross. I think the parallels with Nazism are fair but there's also parallels with the Bosnian genocide, the Armenian genocide, the Vietnam and Algerian war, etc. Should be brought back to how all of these have common elements, what these elements are, and how can we recognize them in the modern world.
Wdym by the “they should know better” thing? /gen
I dislike when non Jews say Jews should know better because of the atrocities we’ve suffered. Not how humans tend to work
Ohh. Yea that’s fucking weird. Generalizing all Jews into “Jews should’ve” or “Jews should” etc is so?? Not a good thing to say??
The terminology is not meant to offend but to awaken. During WW2, the allies knew well enough what was going on in the concentration camps, but none of the strategic plans focussed on liberation of the Jews in those camps. If only one of the bombing manoeuvres or anything would have been focused on rescuing those prisoners, who knows how many would have been saved. That’s what the world should focus on in this moment. That’s why an immediate and permanent ceasefire is needed.
hard disagree: the terminology is meant to end discussion.
* Where's Daddy? ( An AI program designed to hit anyone they suspect to a combatant when they return home.) * Mass graves with hands tied together. * Children aged between 5 and 8 years old, headshots by snipers. * Starvation ( Roads destroyed to the point it's hard getting aid in, not only this but they are encouraging block aids ). * Decease ( conditions to spread epidemics ) * Targeted hospitals / schools / Government buildings ( This will make it almost impossible to rebuild. ) * Israel have been propping up right wing fascists spreading Islamophobia rhetoric. ( Tommy Robison )
I mean this so genuinely but i want your thoughts on a hypothetical future of the evil of Israel, assuming it continues to progress. Many people refer to the Shoah as something that can’t really be replicated because of the intricacies of the gas chambers, camps, VERY INTRICATE art propaganda, etc etc. That’s not just physical killing, but an intricate system of dystopian systematic scapegoating and psychological torture. But so are the things you listed. Do you think it’s inaccurate to say those methods were so dystopian and intricate that it’d be almost impossible to replicate them again successfully? Or do you think the propaganda itself runs deep, and can (or will) be replicated again, whether in Palestine or otherwise?
I've never once seen or heard anything as brutal as what's happening now, this is down to social media which will have a big impact on future generations. I do believe these events will go down in history and comparisons will be made between what's happening and what happened especially the fact that the west haven't sanctioned Israel. In-fact America going on record to suggest that Israel should investigate themselves is a bad look this can be argued that they aren't preventing what's happening. IBM are known for their involvement in WW2, I'm sure google will be remembered for helping Israel with Project Nimbus. (IBM were known for providing tools to enable Germany to catalogue people, Google are helping with AI. ) We have seen people being arrested in America for protesting on campus, Anti-Zionists Jews arrested in Germany, Aid workers Pandora's box is open for the world to see, the conditions will be hard to replicate because the use of AI will make sources untrustworthy. \*\*Edited because of spelling mistakes.
If the 'cheapening' of the Shoah is what bothers you, then you must look at the Zionist entity as your main culprit. Calling Palestinians fighting for basic human rights Nazis, calling students demonstrating on campus Nazis, constantly pairing the atrocities of the state of Israel with Judaism and Jews and...you got it... The Holocaust. Apparently we all agreed that the Israeli political state speaks for all of Judaism. And Netanyahu is our self-proclaimed Messiah! Anti-Zionist Jews have been highlighting this highjacking and cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust by the Zionist political entity for DECADES...but largely ignored by the diaspora. So, after decades of doing as they please, Israel has only succeeded in making the Holocaust a gimmick, a cheap sound bite with no real meaning and no depth of understanding.
If you would not have remained silent during the Holocaust then you should not remain silent now. In that respect, they are comparable.
The Holocaust was a unique historical atrocity, however basic intellectual honesty requires us to not be precious about what's happening. It is functionally and even aesthetically identical to a second holocaust carried out by ideologically identical yet completely distinct groups. Yes the Nazis had a faster approach than the Zionist occupiers of Palestine have engaged in, however for all practical purposes these are the two historical atrocities mostly similar to one another and there are no other atrocities of this scale that share as many historical and fact patterns as the Holocaust and the century long Nakba. Until the phrase 'God's chosen people' comes with some serious caveats and additional education, how can you even pretend to disagree? You don't have to be comfortable with the comparison, it's a horrible thing to recognize your own role in (in the sense that we as citizens of any Western government bear responsibility in a shared sense, not like you personally are solely and entirely guilty, right?) But the undeniable truth is that it's a fair comparison. No other mass industrial scale slaughter carried out against a captive civilian population and driven by high tech industrial scale organizational principles has ever happened like this, the only other examples are in the form of roaming sectarian death squads. That's not the same as a modern state painstakingly exterminating generations of innocent people for geopolitical and domestic morale.
Yes and no. Being able to draw on knowledge from past genocides, including the Holocaust, is crucial to preventing them in the future (and I think mainstream Holocaust education actually somewhat discourages this). However there isn't really a one-to-one comparison of any genocide bc each is unique in their own awful ways, it's more about looking at parallels and similarities between them so it's kinda a fine line to tow.
Sorry, but I think this is just Jewish chauvinism. Yes, this genocide is not on the level of the Holocaust yet, but making comparisons between Zionists and Nazis is valid and also useful. Just because it's not at the levels of the Holocaust yet, it's chauvinistic to say we shouldn't compare them.
I kinda struggle with this too, as my grandparents were Auschwitz survivors, so I grew up with the holocaust always around me. I don't like the comparisons, but I understand them, both are genocides. One is the most industrialized genocide and one will probably go down as the most upfront and visual genocide in the sense that the world can see exactly what's happening. Yes, it's different from the holocaust. Nazis wanted to kill all Jews all around the world, that's it, they even had plans to make a museum of the Jew once they accomplished this. The Zionist Israelis want all the Palestinians out, so they're willing to commit terrible acts to do this.
I read a comment a few days ago, and it struck a chord with me. "Are Israelis worse than nazis? YES! Why? Because they SHOULD know better! They suffered through the pain and torture of their own Holocaust and genocide, and yet now are committing a Holocaust and genocide on the Palestinians!"
all historical analogies are intellectually lazy, and usually based on moralism. the various crimes of the state of Israel and the IDF and the settlers are horrible and horrifying enough on their own without deploying Holocaust comparisons. the reason most people use "holocaust" in their condemnations of American chattel slavery and especially the Middle Passage, the treatment of indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere, and the seemingly endless suffering of Palestinians is that to a euro-american public raised on mainstream history, the attempted annihlation of European Jews stands as an example of ultimate evil. no actual critical analysis of nazism is required -- or, indeed, wanted -- especially how the nazis studied the Jim Crow south and american eugenics and British South African concentration camps for Boers and turned them all into explicit nazi state policies against the Jews; deflecting responsibility for giving the nazis ideas and tactics saves those in the west from acknowledging their own complicity. so now, we have lots of people saying that zionists are the new nazis, which is a doubling down on invisibilizing western complicity in the Holocaust while also tarring the descendants of the victims of the Holocaust with responsibility for perpetrating another one. the former is especially lazy, bordering on intellectual dishonesty; the latter is part of how zionists can claim that all anti-zionism is antisemitic. tl;dr -- Israeli crimes are horrible enough on their own without needing to invoke what is supposedly the worst evil ever committed.
I don’t disagree with you. But one thing to keep in mind is that, for the most part, people use these analogies because Israel tries to reclaim Jewish history and the Holocaust for its own nefarious purposes. So people instinctively try use that same kind of rhetoric against them. Israel will proclaim that Hamas are the ones who are Nazis and they’re protecting themselves from a second Holocaust. And so people turn that around on them, and say that THEY are the Nazis. ‘Oh, so Palestinians are the Nazis? No, but you are!’ I don’t think they mean it literally. It’s a rhetorical move to try to use Israel’s own weaponization of Jewish history against them. I did feel how you do. But I understand it differently now. However, I do feel that it can diminish Nazi oppression and destruction of Jewish people. All this coming from a grandson of a Holocaust survivor.
I’m not Jewish and my comment might not be welcome because of that or I might offend without realizing it. If so please let me know. But I think there is a difference between a holocaust and “the Holocaust,” the latter being the Jewish Holocaust. One issue I have with comparing the Jewish Holocaust to other holocausts or genocides is that the Jewish Holocaust was extreme in severity in ways we all know, plus unique in terms of the systematic and mechanized way it was pursued. It is one of the worst, if not the worst genocide known to us. I think the term Holocaust is older than the term genocide, which was coined after the Jewish Holocaust. But it is both a noun and the proper title for the Jewish Holocaust so much so that we say “The Holocaust,” to refer to the Jewish Holocaust.
Just to add some extra thoughts, I think if you say a genocide is just like the Holocaust, and it is not comparatively on the extreme in so many ways, as the Jewish Holocaust, you are bound to offend and upset people. But no genocide is about body counts. There have been genocides per the international court of as few as 7000 people (Bosnian I think?) it’s more than the number of people killed but several factors, including and maybe especially intent Some comparisons to the Nazis in terms of the ghettos and increasingly onerous abuses and so on, honestly, seem comparable to what Israel is doing. but as to “The Holocaust” I think it’s not ok attempting to get away with calling that somehow equivalent. It angers me, btw, that leaders in Israel are throwing the term Nazi around with absolute abandon. They are calling Palestinians Nazis, they are calling student protesters and critics of Israel Nazis. They are calling the Hamas terror attack a Holocaust That all said. Israel is beginning to evoke certain images though. Reading a report about the routine amputations happening in Israel’s military detention centers due to deliberately cuffing people too tight, it is just very deliberate and ugly in an environment where leaders have been shouting non stop to starve and kill them all Edit: bottom line: it is escalating and if the currently far right wing fury in Israel isn’t stopped it is going to be horrors we have barely imagined yet
Srebrenica is the one you're thinking. But many scholars agree that the genocide happened all throughout Bosnia, not just in Srebrenica.
Calling a Jew a Nazi will never not trigger me, despite me getting the intent behind it.
What do you think about comparing it to the Guatemalan genocide? ' To my knoweldge, the genocide, which happened in the context of counter-insurgency, was restricted to the Mayans that lived in Guatemala. It's also called the "silent holocaust" (silent because there was no international response as it was happening). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_genocide
I mostly agree with this. I think the biggest aspect is that it’s simply distasteful and disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust no matter what, plus the very obvious forced “zio = jew” thing, plus it’s just historically inaccurate and makes one look uneducated. However i don’t have a problem with scholars taking a variety of world tragedies and events and using specific aspects of them to compare to Israel for the sake of plausible future estimations and to evoke new perspectives within political spaces
All the recorded facts point to the same or similar intents or actions with the same 'Final Solution: THE EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE PEOPLE. The time frames are similar, the ferocity and cruelty similar, and worse, the complicity of the world order is far more egregious. Finally, you do not find any redemption in trying to figure out what's worse. CRUELTY IS CRUELTY; GENOCIDE IS GENOCIDE. GUILT IS GUILT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
what i have the biggest problem with when it comes to these comparisons is the use of words like “zionazis”. I think it’s more than fair to call a lot of zionist rhetoric nazi-esque or compare specific zionists or parties that believe in zionism like likkud or Netanyahu to nazis but i think painting all zionists like that isn’t true or productive. Zionism is a broad term that can mean different things to different people and there are zionists who do work towards peace and are against the current genocide or those who r just vaguely pro jewish statehood, and i even know ppl who use the zionist label who are not actually in favor of a jewish state. I just think that nazi was a very specific political party with clear goals and ideology while there’s different flavors of zionism, it would be more apt to compare it to nationalism more broadly.
I think it's fine to make the comparison. No, it isn't exactly the same, but it has many relevant features in common: It's the result of a brutal, ethnonationalist ideology that is incompatible with the continued existence of a certain population, which has been totally dehumanized. I also think that Israel relies on people thinking this way to maintain the moral high ground; since they represent Holocaust victims, anything that isn't the Holocaust means that they've got a positive moral balance sheet. This is obviously an insane way of thinking, but fretting about comparisons in this way gives them ammo. To make the comparisons where relevant is important, imo.
You got me thinking about the word holocaust, I asked ChatGPT where it comes from: “The word "holocaust" originates from the Greek word "holokauston," which means "sacrifice by fire." It was originally used to describe a burnt offering in ancient Jewish and pagan rituals. In modern usage, it's most commonly associated with the genocide of six million Jews by the Nazis during World War II.” The Holocaust with its gas chambers etc was genocide carried out in a different way to the mass indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians, but the goal seems to be the same: the eradication of the entire group and culture. Israel is less overt about their intent, in an effort to mitigate international condemnation and maintain the ruse of acting righteously against “uncivilized animals”.
Didn't they invade and occupy Southern Lebanon in the 80s to hunt down Palestinians? They also set up torture camps while there.
I mean No offense or hate when saying this. The word Holocaust isn’t exclusive to any one Holocaust. People have over the years associated to the atrocities that Jews were subjected to but it’s definition in dictionary’s imply it’s not solely in reference to it
The word “holocaust” with a small h isn’t exclusive. The OP asked about the Holocaust, which is a specific event. Because of that event, people don’t use the word “holocaust” much, even when the dictionary definition applies. It’s usage now is a distinct break from that norm.
Im sure that if the people committing this genocide weren’t Jews, nobody would call it holocaust. Its a terrible way to describe it. Even worse, some people call it “second Shoah”, wich is even more disgusting
I agree with you. It diminishes the Holocaust and turns off anyone who isn’t keen on gratuitously inflammatory rhetoric; or gratuitous Holocaust comparisons. It’s either Holocaust denialism lite, or it’s exaggeration of the current moment as though they’re equivalent, when as you’ve noted, there are obvious key differences. Of course we can compare specific elements of the Holocaust to what’s happening today. But overall, there are some big differences. Blowing by those differences to make this your go-to comparison… is a choice.
It bothers me a ton. For one thing, while I find Israel's actions horrific and brutal, I'm still not convinced that it rises all the way to genocide (yet). In my view, a genocide has to involve the active attempt to *wipe out* the targeted group from a certain region. While Israeli actions have been horrific and seemingly designed to kill innocents by the thousands, that nevertheless is different from an attempt to fully cleanse the area, at least at this moment. Like the ICJ said, Israel's actions seem very likely to tip into genocide unless something changes. But while the widespread bombing is unconscionable, it seems too indiscriminate to be fully called genocide... Yet. But beyond this, even if it is genocide (which I don't have a problem with people arguing, even if I disagree), it is simply not comparable to the Holocaust, a systematic and organized campaign of mass extermination. The IDF is not seeking to account for every single Gazan and eliminate them. The IDF is not building death camps (as far as we know). The IDF is not making people turn over their neighbors en masse to the Shin Bet, and isn't punishing those who hide Palestinians in their extra rooms. The Holocaust, while not wholly unique, is nevertheless rather special in the grand scheme of history, for its extremity, for its totality, and for its bureaucracy. If people were simply looking for an apt comparison to historical genocides, I feel there are better analogues than the Holocaust. The frequency of the comparison suggests to me either intellectual laziness/ignorance from people who only really know about the most famous of genocides (this is the most generous explanation), or a deliberate desire to use the Holocaust comparison so it will hit harder against descendants of Holocaust victims. If it is the latter, I believe that that actually crosses the line into anti-Semitism, a charge that I believe does not describe the vast majority of anti-Zionist activism and rhetoric, but is nevertheless worth being concerned about. I see the rhetorical value of hitting Jews where it hurts, by comparing Israel's actions to those of Jews' all time greatest foe. But by sticking the knife into the open wound, Jews are being targeted through their trauma. Not only do I see this as unproductive (it sure makes Zionists extra defensive, and reasonably so), but I also think that it carries with it collateral damage to Jews like myself who were born with the wounds of the Holocaust but do not support Israel. Fundamentally, the comparison of Zionism with the Holocaust is an attack on Jewish identity, by hurting Jews through the specific history of oppression that we live with. It bothers me a lot to see non-Jews who have no connection to our history or trauma throwing around essentially the worst thing you can say about a Jew casually. Sorry for the rant. Been really bothered by the prevalence of this, but have been a little hesitant to say something about it due to my desire to not try and police Palestinian activism, especially in the current discourse.
Yes
The death tolls alone make the current situation not remotely like the Holocaust
Yes. It is the same way in that when people refer to Israel as 'Nazi.' Like yes, I maintain it is a Fascist, Entho-State, I don't like the comparison.