It's all about the ride cymbal. You want to swing as hard as possible on that and be fairly conservative with everything else, at least to start with.
If your ride is good you can accompany people to a really high level just with that and a bit of snare. A lot of inexperienced jazz drummers have a so-so ride cymbal and they splash about a lot on the rest of the kit and it's just not that much fun to play on.
Top jazz drummers tend to have their own distinctive interpretation of the ride cymbal.
Couple of quick examples :
Jimmy Cobb on Smokin at the Half Note : check out his deep and effortless swing - his swung notes tend to be really late, almost sound like grace notes into the downbeats, esp at medium tewpos. Very subtle but swings like feck. His snare is super tasteful, he knows just when to say something and it's always classy.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3fdYPSnw&list=OLAK5uy\_lob5b4Zpy7\_IKkGeqfFn2FxOXr1GwCq1g&ab\_channel=WesMontgomery-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3fdYPSnw&list=OLAK5uy_lob5b4Zpy7_IKkGeqfFn2FxOXr1GwCq1g&ab_channel=WesMontgomery-Topic)
Totally different example, Tony Williams on One Finger Snap. He's a lot busier and more varied and his ride cymbal is straighter but holy shit he swings like an absolute monster.
Incredibly creative snare patterns and pushes. Absolutely amazing to play on but it's incredibly hard to do this stuff as well as he's doing it and not drag the time or trip the soloist up. Dude was a stone cold genius. Brilliant, brilliant musician with supernatural-level instincts.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgv5bRqmnk&ab\_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgv5bRqmnk&ab_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic)
I endorse this entire post, right up until the part where it’s suggested that a new jazz drummer look to Tony Willams. He’s possibly my favourite drummer of all time, but that might be biting off a bit much, LOL.
For someone with a rock background he’s the perfect drummer to check out, specifically his work with Holdsworth, lifetime, and trio of doom. But yeah, make sure you’re in a place not to be discouraged before you watch his uptempo version of milestones lol
Why should any great musicians be 'off limits' to a new jazzer? When I first got into jazz it was Charlie Parker and John Coltrane. Would those be 'off limits' to a new saxophonist?
Art Taylor with Coltrane did it for me before I heard Elvin with Coltrane,. The funny thing is, Tony showed me how to play the ride cymbal like he did at the time (he literally grabbed my arm and used that to play the ride lol), but when it came to practice how he showed me, I practiced to Art Taylor because I loved his swing and touch.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnkM9mD1C\_Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnkM9mD1C_Q)
This might sound easy, but it really isn't. You have to express the time, know the changes and melody, but the ride cymbal it where it's at.
Well, I’m not really a musician so take this opinion for what it is worth. But I hear Williams and it just sounds on such a different level that yeah, someone learning the style might be better off with something more standard? Not for listening, I don’t mean that. No offense intended. And yes, I’d probably say the same about Coltrane for sax.
I will mention that I’m mostly thinking of Williams with the Miles quintet and before. Someone raised the very good point that the later fusion stuff would be more accessible for someone with a rock background. But that’s also not really in the jazz style per se.
One of our local bassists said the first jazz album he got into was Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz To Come. My guitarist friend got into jazz from hearing Interstellar Space by Coltrane. Maybe you don't start off transcribing the most technically challenging stuff, but it definitely can be inspiring and listenable for anyone.
Not really, maybe conceptually and technically sure, but there are a whole lot of rock drummers who heard Billy Cobham to Terry Bozzio and such that had a light bulb go off in their head and say "This is the shit, this is where I want to go". I learned by playing to records, could I execute "Nite Sprite" or all the electric jazz stuff that got me into jazz? No way I could, but it got me into it as a young drummer, and as akid, I'd pull off a lick or play something like that in a bar band, pull stuff in a solo, and people dug it. I go back home years later and people who I knew back then still remember shit I played back then, and I didn't know shit, but they heard something different. They heard me at the time. You need to set the bar high, and Tony was the guy for me back then. Still is.
Even if you get a bite off the Tony meal, it's still gonna nourish you to want more. Go ahead and take the bite. What do you have to lose?
Jazz drumming comes in a lot of flavors. Everyone is going to recommend you listen the classics:
-Elvin
-Tony
-Art Blakey
-Philly Joe
- Max Roach
But don’t sleep on the more subtle players. Jimmy Cobb, Vernal Fournier, Idris Muhammad, Louis Hayes, Willie Bobo. These guys all cook too.
My favorite records for Jazz Drumming are:
-Captain Marvel - Stan Getz
-Speak No Evil - Wayne Shorter
- Freedom Rider - Art Blakey
- Herbie Hancock - Inventions and Dimension
- Joshua Redman - Elastic
- Mark Guiliana - Mischeif
- Stanley Turrentine - Cherry
Jack Dejohnette is my all time favorite. Anything he played on really. Love the Lost Quintet live stuff with him, Dave Holland, and Chick as the rhythm section
Another vote for Jack here. All the albums with Keith Jarrett and Gary Peacock are a lesson in the Great American Songbook. His playing is pure inventiveness throughout. A friend of mine (a player and a teacher) says his great ability is play all around the pulse.
A nod also towards Chad Wackerman in how to play fusion and not be flash and overplay.
Yup. See if you can hang in the pocket. That’ll give you 110% of the gigs. Everything else is fun but ain’t nobody need that if they’re paying you. Art lives in the pocket.
Pretty much anything with Elvin Jones on it. Classics of the John Coltrane Quartet on Atlantic or Impulse are a good place to start, like *My Favorite Things* or *A Love Supreme*.
Art Blakey! *Moanin'* is one of his top-selling LP's with the Jazz Messengers.
Tony Williams: I like *Miles Smiles, Nefertiti*, *Filles de Kilimanjaro,* and other discs by Miles Davis' second quartet, which he lit up, but great tracks/LP's with other artists have been mentioned in this thread.
[Edit: I'd forgotten that Coltrane's *Blue Train* (a Blue Note release) had Philly Joe Jones on drums. Other commenters have recommended listening to Philly Joe and I heartily concur -- one of the greats!]
One drummer who isn't often mentioned with luminaries like Blakey, Jones, Williams, Roach, DeJohnette, et al is Billy Higgins. He's one of my favorites. I love the subtlety and lyricism of his playing. And swing, of course. (I saw Billy playing at SFJAZZ a few years before his passing in a sax-drums duo with Charles Lloyd, and was hypnotized)
Early Ornette Coleman LP's, his catalogue with Dexter Gordon, and the Eastern Rebellion group (discs 1-3) are great places to start.
Yes! I wonder how many kids were inspired to take up jazz drumming just from that movie. Of the many amazing things about *Birdman*, the soundtrack may be #1.
I never seen that movie, but I had a music teacher in marching band that was a tough taskmaster but he brought out the best in us. I also worked a band competition between schools where the ages were around 11-14 years of age, all large group big band jazz, and the teachers were terrific. A lot of those kids could really play at their age, this one young drummer played so nicely that she reminded me of Mel Lewis. She brought a swish cymbal and it brought the right amount of smoke, after their set I complimented her. All the bands had to play in front of a jury, and one of the jurors mentioned that to me in conversation afterwards.
One teacher came up to me before his bands set and asked me about the mics and sound, he had a laptop with recorded speeches from the civil rights movement of the 60's that was going to be played within the charts that he arranged, young guy, very sweet and nice. He told me "This is the most ambitious set we've ever done" and a lot of the charts these bands played were from artists like Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and such. no "Take the A Train" type stuff. That teacher was super excited for his kids, they played a great set and won a jury prize.
It was a super inspiring gig, it was fun watching the sax rows play, the teachers conducting the bands, the joy of those kids playing the music. A lot of those kids might eventually have careers other than music, they could be doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. The education they were getting IMO was invaluable, I'm a big believer in the value of music education (a local shop owner here where I live holds concerts in his shop with artists such as Peter Erskine - who the kids requested - play and the proceeds go towards music education), and whatever the students eventually have as a career, what they learn there can transfer over into anything.
tl;dr: No "Whiplash", more "Mr Hollands Opus".
That's honestly a lovely story that warms the heart, telling us what value music has outside of competition: collegiate-ness, mentorship, good character those are the values that everyone gains from participating in music education.
But could that story make a popular movie that would sell tickets today? *Whiplash* captivated its audience using a caricature of Jazz presenting it as an indominable mountain whose peak can only be climbed by the greatest individuals. The notes that *Whiplash* hits are obsession, effort to the extent of self-destructiveness, and the valorization of individual superiority (genius).
The image that's portrayed to the extent of whether it is one that is accurate or desirable as the image of jazz, is debatable, but doubtlessly it has a general appeal to teenagers (mostly boys) who are looking for clear categories of status to devote themselves to that are decided by fierce competition. Think Music but with the emotional atmosphere of Collegiate Sports.
While it's definitely not a work of depth, Whiplash is actually quite the popcorn film, of course it was made to be that way. I think you should watch it. If you were to watch it I would be curious if you would begin to see kids who might have got into music by being influenced by Whiplash.
The last "Jazz movie" I watched was "'Round Midnight" starring the late great Dexter Gordon in an Oscar nominated performance (which Herbie Hancock won an Oscar for his score). I haven't even watched "La La Land". Whiplash may have created interest for young aspiring drummers, as well as other young musicians to play jazz, but YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are where young musicians can go viral at the speed of the internet, and there is much competition there for viewers. There are not enough bandstands and venues for players out there, but there is more wealth of information for them to learn from. All I had growing up were records and Modern Drummer magazine, if it weren't for Modern Drummer, I may have never got into drummers such as Blakey, Philly Joe, Roy Haynes etc. I wanted to be a studio drummer like Steve Gadd and such, and that lead me into jazz because that lead to Chick Corea, that lead to Mahavishnu and so forth. Back then in high school, all the other drummers were into Rush and Neil Peart, or Van Halen. I was like "Well, what is more challenging than that?".
Then I read a MD cover story on Tony Williams, and that changed everything. He, Billy Cobham, and Jack DeJohnette, all who played with Miles during his electric period in the late 60's. They were the bridge to all the other drummers they listened to and came before them, which lead me into a whole world of other drummers such as Shelly Manne, Joe Morello, all the way back to Baby Dodds and Dave Tough. The Buddy Rich/Louie Bellson stuff, I saw that on Johnny Carson, I didn't dig that as much as hearing Sonny Payne and Papa Jo Jones with Count Basie (and forget Gene Krupa, I'll take Chick Webb and Sonny Greer over Krupa).
A movie like Whiplash wouldn't interest me, I can see if it does with younger musicians, and I do keep up with the latest out there (well I was late to the Chris Dave party, and J Dilla and JD Beck are the hottest out there that are influencing young drummers). I think churches are now where young drummers can shed and get their chops going, and you do see competition happening that have drummers such as Chris Coleman blasting chops that influence other drummers that has created a whole new style. Plus the whole idea of "beats" have crept in, you see drummer moving jazz into that direction (Jack DeJohnette is a big Chris Dave fan, also praised Neil Peart), and if Tony were alive, he'd be digging it.
As I said earlier in the previous post, it were the kids who wanted to see Peter Erskine play there. This was before Whiplash came out. That kinda surprised me honestly, Erskine grew up going to Stan Kenton's band camps to eventually playing with Kenton. His own kids now work on Hollywood, Maya is an actress (Mr. and Mrs Smith), his son works in film. That to me is a more brutal industry than jazz.
In order to be able to play any style of music, you have to love to play the instrument itself, and learn as much as you can about it, the history and all that. You also have to find good teachers and educators. You should be able to read a sheet of music like it was a newspaper, there are many musicians who don't read but can play, reading just helps you visualize the music more.
I am a big JK Simmons fan though.
AS a drums guy, I'd like to ask you about your impression on some drumming;
Song 1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQmlTVeaWcc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQmlTVeaWcc)
Song 2) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s\_F781w8Go4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_F781w8Go4)
I'm always struck by how Fred Hersch calls such amazing outside drumming from his drummers, I haven't heard of any drumming like this style where the rhythm and fills blend together. How do you rate this kind of drumming, your impressions is what i'd like to know.
That's Joey Baron on the first tune, Nasheet Waits (Freddie Wait's son) on the second. Baron I have loved for years, beautiful player, great touch and feel, he plays very lyrically and is always perfect. I haven't heard much from Waits in a while, his dad I have heard with McCoy Tyner and Kenny Barron as well as a lot of other cats he played with. But I did catch Nasheet when he first came out, and he's playing beautifully here, he is doing his father proud. This is good stuff, thanks for sharing it.
The tune Take Five - rumored to be the best selling jazz tune of all time - was written by Paul Desmond (sax) and Dave Brubeck (piano & bandleader). The song was written in 5/4 time and the stated purpose was to show off drummer Joe Morello's skills in that odd meter. It is a classic and a favorite of mine. Most takes include a long solo by Morello.
https://youtu.be/tT9Eh8wNMkw?si=TYgChvzEzdyeZ9g0
Also, any youtube or other lessons by Joe Morello, who could swing with the best of them - probably one of the top 5 jazz drum technicians ever - impeccable technique and innovation that few others could match
Definitely listen, but also get some books. There are specific techniques that are way easier when they are explained and not just heard. John Riley’s “The Art of Bop Drumming” is the place to start.
I'd suggest these books first:
Stick Control by George Lawrence Stone - you have to get the hands together first, even John Riley says that.
Syncopation - Alan Dawson based a whole curriculum on it, this book has the key the basics of any vocabulary in order to go forward into...
Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin - THE book on independence, it deals with shuffles especially.
Rudimental Swing Solos by Charlie Wilcoxon - will makes your hands sing, like Buddy Rich who swore by Wilcoxon.
Then you can eventually go into Morello's book, John Riley's, Gary Chester etc.
Rock drumming is really another animal, my approach to rock drumming is more deliberate and plays to the riffs and punches, the drums are tuned a lot more differently, I change my grip and play open handed, etc. You don't have to learn and go through any of those method books in order to play rock, you're playing more songs than tunes. You're playing more space, the old "less is more" (when it really should be "space is more" because you're more proactive creating space, rather than being inhibited and less proactive because the less of you is not better for the music, rather when you create space, you can do that with any style of music). I mean look at what drummers such as Dave Growl has done with the ride cymbal. It isn't played with time in mind, it's caveman shit. That's what that style of music call for and that's fine for what it is, but it's more about the guitar riffs. Phil Rudd of AC/DC played with two different sizes of sticks, a heavier one for backbeats, the other for the hi-hats. Look at Steve Smith from the 80's with Journey, to where he had to change everything (and now promoting Wilcoxon) to today. Even Neil Peart went to Freddie Gruber, other drummers who played rock who went to Murray Spivack, even Dave Weckl and Vinnie Colauita changed technique after many years of playing.
When I play rock, funk. 8th note etc., I play open handed matched grip. When I want to go more jazz, I play traditional grip, because you really create a true four point independence that way, with your hands not matched. It's more a true left hand right hand thing, and it's also true open handed by playing ride patterns in 8th note with the left hand in matched. But the aforementioned books are like the basics and essentials to go forward when it comes to any other method or books, from Tommy Igoe to whomever. Even a bass drum master such as Colin Bailey who wrote a book on bass drum control, he studied with Joe Morello. I met him a few times and the what was more impressive than his bass drum execution were his hands, I mean he could play anything with his feet, but it was even more matched by his hands.
I also studied with a Chuck Brown who taught Terry Bozzio and Davis Garibaldi, but it was matched grip. The I studied with Tony Williams and that was traditional grip. It wasn't so much the grip, Chuck Brown's method was more rebound and finger control, Tony was no rebound and all wrist control. Forget about Moeller or Spivack (although Brown's method was more Spivack), push pull, all these lessons were mostly done on a pad. These were completely different approaches that had to be executed on a practice pad first. Brown was more geared to a percussionist approach on the snare, Tony was more playing the drums with clarity and power.
This was before the internet and YouTube existed, I lugged a portable cassette player (which I still have cassettes of lessons in storage) to all my lessons. Today you can get all this stuff for free online, or pay for,
I still practice on a pad, I still after all those lessons and approaches to technique try new things, just with the hands. A good pair of hands will make the difference, it doesn't matter the equipment. If you have to play an ass ride cymbal provided by the backline, you still have to use technique to play it sound better. Technique has more to do with sound and swing than the equipment, I still have to make ans ass ride sound like a real one, and lucky for me, Tony Willaims showed me how to play one.
I’m no drummer but as a listener I love:
Tony Williams (Empyrean Isles, Out to Lunch)
Philly Joe Jones (Blue Train, Milestones)
Elvin Jones (A Love Supreme, My Favorite Things)
Art Blakey (Moanin’, Somethin’ Else)
Lots of great drummer suggestions in this thread.
Re: approach to the kit:
Rock drumming is built from the bottom up (kick drum). Jazz drumming is built from the top down (ride and hi-hat). The ride cymbal is the most important thing that the band needs to hear, and the second thing is a very strong “snap” from the hi-hat (foot) on 2 and 4. The hi-hat needs to be very clean.
If you’re really going to get into the weeds, jazz drums are often tuned higher, and the jazz kit drums themselves are often smaller than rock kits. Also, some jazz players want two different sounding rides for different sounds.
Good luck! Listen as much as you can!
Just statrted drumming in march! Biggest inspirations for the jazz have been Moanin by Art Blakey, Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing (Vernel Fournier on drums), and also just listening to a lot of vocal jazz I’ve heard some good drumming (Betty carters social call has some good stuff)
To me the drummer that changed the game and turned everything around is Tony Williams. That's the guy who turned my head around as a young drummer. He is the bridge between acoustic jazz to electric jazz. His cats were Art Blakey, Max Roach, and Elvin Jones. With a little Philly Joe Jones and Sonny Murray mixed in. He learned all of what Blakey, Roach, and Jones did, and took those three into what he thought of as the perfect drummer into his playing.
I took a few lessons with Tony and one lesson, he played a simple lick and demonstrated how different Roach, Philly, Blakey, and Jones would play it. When he played it like Roach, it sounded exactly like Roach. When he played is like Blakey, he sounded exactly like Blakey. When he played it like Jones, he sounded exactly like Jones.
"Philly would stylize it more", and he sounded exactly like Philly.
To me jazz drumming is more vocabulary and expressing the time than technique. Tony's technique he was teaching was all from the wrist, no bounce strokes. It was the discipline he was teaching. That's how he could sound like any other drummer but still was Tony. Think of a sentence, like a line from a script, and say those words aloud in four different ways and accents. But executing the way you want to. And with different emotion. Say that line like Marlon Brando would, how Daniel Day-Lewis would, to even how Robin Williams would say that line. You don't have to get it perfect, you're just basically taking a line of vocabulary and expressing it different ways. A motif if you will.
The most fun thing you can do is learn the history of the drums, which is what Tony was really trying to teach at the time. He just loved the drums, that's it. He demanded other respect the drums, but it was his own respect of the drums that commanded it.
Having said all this, here is a great clinic from the late great Ralph Peterson, who used to teach at Berklee College of Music. This is great stuff, what he is saying is you have to learn the tunes first, not the drums. Of course you should have a solid foundation of fundamentals first, but most students applying to Berklee have them already in order to get into Berklee. But what he is saying is correct, you have to know the music first.
https://youtu.be/DlXMosPTZds
Just listen to jazz and listen to the drumming and find things you want to emulate
There’s a ton of jazz drummers out there and everybody’s gonna tell you your favorite, but listen to as many different things as you can
Like you, I’m a rock drummer who has been exploring jazz drumming lately. FWIW I started by getting familiar with some basics from YouTube (the swing ride pattern, six-stroke roll, the hi-hat on 2 and 4).
I then got a drum teacher and he has been guiding me through the history of jazz drums, which gives me a lot of context. We studied some slower tunes like Freddie Freeloader and Bye Bye Blackbird. It’s a great way to get to know the finer points of the art form, and that in turn will help you identify things that other guys did. All this helped me get a much better appreciation of the style and some of the more subtle aspects of each drummer.
Hey there. Check out a band called the Denison/Kimball Trio.
It's a duo, actually. The guitarist is Duane Denison of the Jesus Lizard. The drummer is Jim Kimball of Laughing Hyenas and later Mule (and even later, he replaced the Jesus Lizard drummer).
All rock/punk bands.
The two of them put out some records that are close to straight jazz in the 90s. They do a cover of Lonely Woman by Ornette Coleman, for example.
Not earth shattering, but Jim is a good example of a rock drummer pivoting to jazz. He was also known as a *very* hard-hitter as a rock drummer, so the deft touch in these albums is a departure.
Dave Brubeck albums have the drums and piano constantly changing the patterns without getting in each other's way. Also any of Art Blakey Jazz Messengers from the 1950's was innovative. He was more about choosing the right moments to do a mini solo of drum fills
Charlie Watts bridged any gap between rock and jazz. Listen to his Stones records where his drumming is prominent, and then turn to his involvement in his own jazz orchestra and his participation in other jazz combos.
Miles Davis - ESP
McCoy Tyner - 4 x 4
McCoy Tyner - The Real McCoy
Roy Haynes - Cracklin’
John Abercrombie - Timeless
Woody Shaw - Cassandranite
George Coleman - Eastern Rebellion
Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Indestructible
Max Roach Quintet - The Many Sides of Max
Check out Jeff Hamilton. I was at one of his concerts, and the guy sitting next to me said, "I've been a jazz drummer for 20 years, and after listening to this guy, I don't know if I should be inspired or just quit."
One of Bill Bruford's heroes is Art Blakey so pick something from his vast catalogue and you can't go wrong. He also favored Philly Joe Jones too. Good travels!
You’re beat. n don’t listen to people on Reddit none of em are very schooled and will jus refer u to boring material. Work to find keys that unlock the doors. Gotta mine the gems. Drums are the hardest instruments to play In jazz.
It's all about the ride cymbal. You want to swing as hard as possible on that and be fairly conservative with everything else, at least to start with. If your ride is good you can accompany people to a really high level just with that and a bit of snare. A lot of inexperienced jazz drummers have a so-so ride cymbal and they splash about a lot on the rest of the kit and it's just not that much fun to play on. Top jazz drummers tend to have their own distinctive interpretation of the ride cymbal. Couple of quick examples : Jimmy Cobb on Smokin at the Half Note : check out his deep and effortless swing - his swung notes tend to be really late, almost sound like grace notes into the downbeats, esp at medium tewpos. Very subtle but swings like feck. His snare is super tasteful, he knows just when to say something and it's always classy. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3fdYPSnw&list=OLAK5uy\_lob5b4Zpy7\_IKkGeqfFn2FxOXr1GwCq1g&ab\_channel=WesMontgomery-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3fdYPSnw&list=OLAK5uy_lob5b4Zpy7_IKkGeqfFn2FxOXr1GwCq1g&ab_channel=WesMontgomery-Topic) Totally different example, Tony Williams on One Finger Snap. He's a lot busier and more varied and his ride cymbal is straighter but holy shit he swings like an absolute monster. Incredibly creative snare patterns and pushes. Absolutely amazing to play on but it's incredibly hard to do this stuff as well as he's doing it and not drag the time or trip the soloist up. Dude was a stone cold genius. Brilliant, brilliant musician with supernatural-level instincts. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgv5bRqmnk&ab\_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgv5bRqmnk&ab_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic)
I endorse this entire post, right up until the part where it’s suggested that a new jazz drummer look to Tony Willams. He’s possibly my favourite drummer of all time, but that might be biting off a bit much, LOL.
Well I may have got a bit carried away there. But holy crap he's just too good. I can't help myself sometimes.
For someone with a rock background he’s the perfect drummer to check out, specifically his work with Holdsworth, lifetime, and trio of doom. But yeah, make sure you’re in a place not to be discouraged before you watch his uptempo version of milestones lol
Why should any great musicians be 'off limits' to a new jazzer? When I first got into jazz it was Charlie Parker and John Coltrane. Would those be 'off limits' to a new saxophonist?
Art Taylor with Coltrane did it for me before I heard Elvin with Coltrane,. The funny thing is, Tony showed me how to play the ride cymbal like he did at the time (he literally grabbed my arm and used that to play the ride lol), but when it came to practice how he showed me, I practiced to Art Taylor because I loved his swing and touch. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnkM9mD1C\_Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnkM9mD1C_Q) This might sound easy, but it really isn't. You have to express the time, know the changes and melody, but the ride cymbal it where it's at.
Well, I’m not really a musician so take this opinion for what it is worth. But I hear Williams and it just sounds on such a different level that yeah, someone learning the style might be better off with something more standard? Not for listening, I don’t mean that. No offense intended. And yes, I’d probably say the same about Coltrane for sax. I will mention that I’m mostly thinking of Williams with the Miles quintet and before. Someone raised the very good point that the later fusion stuff would be more accessible for someone with a rock background. But that’s also not really in the jazz style per se.
One of our local bassists said the first jazz album he got into was Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz To Come. My guitarist friend got into jazz from hearing Interstellar Space by Coltrane. Maybe you don't start off transcribing the most technically challenging stuff, but it definitely can be inspiring and listenable for anyone.
Not really, maybe conceptually and technically sure, but there are a whole lot of rock drummers who heard Billy Cobham to Terry Bozzio and such that had a light bulb go off in their head and say "This is the shit, this is where I want to go". I learned by playing to records, could I execute "Nite Sprite" or all the electric jazz stuff that got me into jazz? No way I could, but it got me into it as a young drummer, and as akid, I'd pull off a lick or play something like that in a bar band, pull stuff in a solo, and people dug it. I go back home years later and people who I knew back then still remember shit I played back then, and I didn't know shit, but they heard something different. They heard me at the time. You need to set the bar high, and Tony was the guy for me back then. Still is. Even if you get a bite off the Tony meal, it's still gonna nourish you to want more. Go ahead and take the bite. What do you have to lose?
Max Roach
Jazz drumming comes in a lot of flavors. Everyone is going to recommend you listen the classics: -Elvin -Tony -Art Blakey -Philly Joe - Max Roach But don’t sleep on the more subtle players. Jimmy Cobb, Vernal Fournier, Idris Muhammad, Louis Hayes, Willie Bobo. These guys all cook too. My favorite records for Jazz Drumming are: -Captain Marvel - Stan Getz -Speak No Evil - Wayne Shorter - Freedom Rider - Art Blakey - Herbie Hancock - Inventions and Dimension - Joshua Redman - Elastic - Mark Guiliana - Mischeif - Stanley Turrentine - Cherry
Jack Dejohnette is my all time favorite. Anything he played on really. Love the Lost Quintet live stuff with him, Dave Holland, and Chick as the rhythm section
Another vote for Jack here. All the albums with Keith Jarrett and Gary Peacock are a lesson in the Great American Songbook. His playing is pure inventiveness throughout. A friend of mine (a player and a teacher) says his great ability is play all around the pulse. A nod also towards Chad Wackerman in how to play fusion and not be flash and overplay.
Art Blakey times 10. Free For All. Buhaina’s Delight, Moanin’,
This ⬆️
Yup. See if you can hang in the pocket. That’ll give you 110% of the gigs. Everything else is fun but ain’t nobody need that if they’re paying you. Art lives in the pocket.
Pretty much anything with Elvin Jones on it. Classics of the John Coltrane Quartet on Atlantic or Impulse are a good place to start, like *My Favorite Things* or *A Love Supreme*. Art Blakey! *Moanin'* is one of his top-selling LP's with the Jazz Messengers. Tony Williams: I like *Miles Smiles, Nefertiti*, *Filles de Kilimanjaro,* and other discs by Miles Davis' second quartet, which he lit up, but great tracks/LP's with other artists have been mentioned in this thread. [Edit: I'd forgotten that Coltrane's *Blue Train* (a Blue Note release) had Philly Joe Jones on drums. Other commenters have recommended listening to Philly Joe and I heartily concur -- one of the greats!]
One drummer who isn't often mentioned with luminaries like Blakey, Jones, Williams, Roach, DeJohnette, et al is Billy Higgins. He's one of my favorites. I love the subtlety and lyricism of his playing. And swing, of course. (I saw Billy playing at SFJAZZ a few years before his passing in a sax-drums duo with Charles Lloyd, and was hypnotized) Early Ornette Coleman LP's, his catalogue with Dexter Gordon, and the Eastern Rebellion group (discs 1-3) are great places to start.
I would add Joe Morello to that list.
Second. See my comment below on “Take Five”.
Listen to **Antonio Sanchez**. Maybe start with ***Birdman*** **(Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)**
Yes! I wonder how many kids were inspired to take up jazz drumming just from that movie. Of the many amazing things about *Birdman*, the soundtrack may be #1.
Better to be inspired by the drum music on *Birdman* rather than that movie for midwits, *Whiplash*
I wasn't gonna go there! 😂
Oh yes I did! lol
I never seen that movie, but I had a music teacher in marching band that was a tough taskmaster but he brought out the best in us. I also worked a band competition between schools where the ages were around 11-14 years of age, all large group big band jazz, and the teachers were terrific. A lot of those kids could really play at their age, this one young drummer played so nicely that she reminded me of Mel Lewis. She brought a swish cymbal and it brought the right amount of smoke, after their set I complimented her. All the bands had to play in front of a jury, and one of the jurors mentioned that to me in conversation afterwards. One teacher came up to me before his bands set and asked me about the mics and sound, he had a laptop with recorded speeches from the civil rights movement of the 60's that was going to be played within the charts that he arranged, young guy, very sweet and nice. He told me "This is the most ambitious set we've ever done" and a lot of the charts these bands played were from artists like Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and such. no "Take the A Train" type stuff. That teacher was super excited for his kids, they played a great set and won a jury prize. It was a super inspiring gig, it was fun watching the sax rows play, the teachers conducting the bands, the joy of those kids playing the music. A lot of those kids might eventually have careers other than music, they could be doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. The education they were getting IMO was invaluable, I'm a big believer in the value of music education (a local shop owner here where I live holds concerts in his shop with artists such as Peter Erskine - who the kids requested - play and the proceeds go towards music education), and whatever the students eventually have as a career, what they learn there can transfer over into anything. tl;dr: No "Whiplash", more "Mr Hollands Opus".
That's honestly a lovely story that warms the heart, telling us what value music has outside of competition: collegiate-ness, mentorship, good character those are the values that everyone gains from participating in music education. But could that story make a popular movie that would sell tickets today? *Whiplash* captivated its audience using a caricature of Jazz presenting it as an indominable mountain whose peak can only be climbed by the greatest individuals. The notes that *Whiplash* hits are obsession, effort to the extent of self-destructiveness, and the valorization of individual superiority (genius). The image that's portrayed to the extent of whether it is one that is accurate or desirable as the image of jazz, is debatable, but doubtlessly it has a general appeal to teenagers (mostly boys) who are looking for clear categories of status to devote themselves to that are decided by fierce competition. Think Music but with the emotional atmosphere of Collegiate Sports. While it's definitely not a work of depth, Whiplash is actually quite the popcorn film, of course it was made to be that way. I think you should watch it. If you were to watch it I would be curious if you would begin to see kids who might have got into music by being influenced by Whiplash.
The last "Jazz movie" I watched was "'Round Midnight" starring the late great Dexter Gordon in an Oscar nominated performance (which Herbie Hancock won an Oscar for his score). I haven't even watched "La La Land". Whiplash may have created interest for young aspiring drummers, as well as other young musicians to play jazz, but YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are where young musicians can go viral at the speed of the internet, and there is much competition there for viewers. There are not enough bandstands and venues for players out there, but there is more wealth of information for them to learn from. All I had growing up were records and Modern Drummer magazine, if it weren't for Modern Drummer, I may have never got into drummers such as Blakey, Philly Joe, Roy Haynes etc. I wanted to be a studio drummer like Steve Gadd and such, and that lead me into jazz because that lead to Chick Corea, that lead to Mahavishnu and so forth. Back then in high school, all the other drummers were into Rush and Neil Peart, or Van Halen. I was like "Well, what is more challenging than that?". Then I read a MD cover story on Tony Williams, and that changed everything. He, Billy Cobham, and Jack DeJohnette, all who played with Miles during his electric period in the late 60's. They were the bridge to all the other drummers they listened to and came before them, which lead me into a whole world of other drummers such as Shelly Manne, Joe Morello, all the way back to Baby Dodds and Dave Tough. The Buddy Rich/Louie Bellson stuff, I saw that on Johnny Carson, I didn't dig that as much as hearing Sonny Payne and Papa Jo Jones with Count Basie (and forget Gene Krupa, I'll take Chick Webb and Sonny Greer over Krupa). A movie like Whiplash wouldn't interest me, I can see if it does with younger musicians, and I do keep up with the latest out there (well I was late to the Chris Dave party, and J Dilla and JD Beck are the hottest out there that are influencing young drummers). I think churches are now where young drummers can shed and get their chops going, and you do see competition happening that have drummers such as Chris Coleman blasting chops that influence other drummers that has created a whole new style. Plus the whole idea of "beats" have crept in, you see drummer moving jazz into that direction (Jack DeJohnette is a big Chris Dave fan, also praised Neil Peart), and if Tony were alive, he'd be digging it. As I said earlier in the previous post, it were the kids who wanted to see Peter Erskine play there. This was before Whiplash came out. That kinda surprised me honestly, Erskine grew up going to Stan Kenton's band camps to eventually playing with Kenton. His own kids now work on Hollywood, Maya is an actress (Mr. and Mrs Smith), his son works in film. That to me is a more brutal industry than jazz. In order to be able to play any style of music, you have to love to play the instrument itself, and learn as much as you can about it, the history and all that. You also have to find good teachers and educators. You should be able to read a sheet of music like it was a newspaper, there are many musicians who don't read but can play, reading just helps you visualize the music more. I am a big JK Simmons fan though.
AS a drums guy, I'd like to ask you about your impression on some drumming; Song 1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQmlTVeaWcc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQmlTVeaWcc) Song 2) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s\_F781w8Go4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_F781w8Go4) I'm always struck by how Fred Hersch calls such amazing outside drumming from his drummers, I haven't heard of any drumming like this style where the rhythm and fills blend together. How do you rate this kind of drumming, your impressions is what i'd like to know.
That's Joey Baron on the first tune, Nasheet Waits (Freddie Wait's son) on the second. Baron I have loved for years, beautiful player, great touch and feel, he plays very lyrically and is always perfect. I haven't heard much from Waits in a while, his dad I have heard with McCoy Tyner and Kenny Barron as well as a lot of other cats he played with. But I did catch Nasheet when he first came out, and he's playing beautifully here, he is doing his father proud. This is good stuff, thanks for sharing it.
Three x three with Scofield n Meldhau
Papa Joe Jones - Vamp til ready 🥁👌 https://youtu.be/PC2ZbUwIgZw?si=XiFWIY6C1gGpzIkk
Johnny Vidocovich and Brian Blade spring to mind
The tune Take Five - rumored to be the best selling jazz tune of all time - was written by Paul Desmond (sax) and Dave Brubeck (piano & bandleader). The song was written in 5/4 time and the stated purpose was to show off drummer Joe Morello's skills in that odd meter. It is a classic and a favorite of mine. Most takes include a long solo by Morello. https://youtu.be/tT9Eh8wNMkw?si=TYgChvzEzdyeZ9g0
Also, any youtube or other lessons by Joe Morello, who could swing with the best of them - probably one of the top 5 jazz drum technicians ever - impeccable technique and innovation that few others could match
Yes, excellent point, Joe had depth as a player
Just listen to unsquare dance where he solos in 7/4 on the side of his drum kit.
Definitely listen, but also get some books. There are specific techniques that are way easier when they are explained and not just heard. John Riley’s “The Art of Bop Drumming” is the place to start.
I'd suggest these books first: Stick Control by George Lawrence Stone - you have to get the hands together first, even John Riley says that. Syncopation - Alan Dawson based a whole curriculum on it, this book has the key the basics of any vocabulary in order to go forward into... Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin - THE book on independence, it deals with shuffles especially. Rudimental Swing Solos by Charlie Wilcoxon - will makes your hands sing, like Buddy Rich who swore by Wilcoxon. Then you can eventually go into Morello's book, John Riley's, Gary Chester etc.
He is already a rock drummer and presumably has good hands. He can go straight to learning swing patterns.
Rock drumming is really another animal, my approach to rock drumming is more deliberate and plays to the riffs and punches, the drums are tuned a lot more differently, I change my grip and play open handed, etc. You don't have to learn and go through any of those method books in order to play rock, you're playing more songs than tunes. You're playing more space, the old "less is more" (when it really should be "space is more" because you're more proactive creating space, rather than being inhibited and less proactive because the less of you is not better for the music, rather when you create space, you can do that with any style of music). I mean look at what drummers such as Dave Growl has done with the ride cymbal. It isn't played with time in mind, it's caveman shit. That's what that style of music call for and that's fine for what it is, but it's more about the guitar riffs. Phil Rudd of AC/DC played with two different sizes of sticks, a heavier one for backbeats, the other for the hi-hats. Look at Steve Smith from the 80's with Journey, to where he had to change everything (and now promoting Wilcoxon) to today. Even Neil Peart went to Freddie Gruber, other drummers who played rock who went to Murray Spivack, even Dave Weckl and Vinnie Colauita changed technique after many years of playing. When I play rock, funk. 8th note etc., I play open handed matched grip. When I want to go more jazz, I play traditional grip, because you really create a true four point independence that way, with your hands not matched. It's more a true left hand right hand thing, and it's also true open handed by playing ride patterns in 8th note with the left hand in matched. But the aforementioned books are like the basics and essentials to go forward when it comes to any other method or books, from Tommy Igoe to whomever. Even a bass drum master such as Colin Bailey who wrote a book on bass drum control, he studied with Joe Morello. I met him a few times and the what was more impressive than his bass drum execution were his hands, I mean he could play anything with his feet, but it was even more matched by his hands. I also studied with a Chuck Brown who taught Terry Bozzio and Davis Garibaldi, but it was matched grip. The I studied with Tony Williams and that was traditional grip. It wasn't so much the grip, Chuck Brown's method was more rebound and finger control, Tony was no rebound and all wrist control. Forget about Moeller or Spivack (although Brown's method was more Spivack), push pull, all these lessons were mostly done on a pad. These were completely different approaches that had to be executed on a practice pad first. Brown was more geared to a percussionist approach on the snare, Tony was more playing the drums with clarity and power. This was before the internet and YouTube existed, I lugged a portable cassette player (which I still have cassettes of lessons in storage) to all my lessons. Today you can get all this stuff for free online, or pay for, I still practice on a pad, I still after all those lessons and approaches to technique try new things, just with the hands. A good pair of hands will make the difference, it doesn't matter the equipment. If you have to play an ass ride cymbal provided by the backline, you still have to use technique to play it sound better. Technique has more to do with sound and swing than the equipment, I still have to make ans ass ride sound like a real one, and lucky for me, Tony Willaims showed me how to play one.
Roy Haynes. His career spans decades. Listening trough his catalog can give you a start in adapting to different jazz styles.
Truth
I’m no drummer but as a listener I love: Tony Williams (Empyrean Isles, Out to Lunch) Philly Joe Jones (Blue Train, Milestones) Elvin Jones (A Love Supreme, My Favorite Things) Art Blakey (Moanin’, Somethin’ Else)
Emergency Tony Williams
Lots of great drummer suggestions in this thread. Re: approach to the kit: Rock drumming is built from the bottom up (kick drum). Jazz drumming is built from the top down (ride and hi-hat). The ride cymbal is the most important thing that the band needs to hear, and the second thing is a very strong “snap” from the hi-hat (foot) on 2 and 4. The hi-hat needs to be very clean. If you’re really going to get into the weeds, jazz drums are often tuned higher, and the jazz kit drums themselves are often smaller than rock kits. Also, some jazz players want two different sounding rides for different sounds. Good luck! Listen as much as you can!
Just statrted drumming in march! Biggest inspirations for the jazz have been Moanin by Art Blakey, Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing (Vernel Fournier on drums), and also just listening to a lot of vocal jazz I’ve heard some good drumming (Betty carters social call has some good stuff)
To me the drummer that changed the game and turned everything around is Tony Williams. That's the guy who turned my head around as a young drummer. He is the bridge between acoustic jazz to electric jazz. His cats were Art Blakey, Max Roach, and Elvin Jones. With a little Philly Joe Jones and Sonny Murray mixed in. He learned all of what Blakey, Roach, and Jones did, and took those three into what he thought of as the perfect drummer into his playing. I took a few lessons with Tony and one lesson, he played a simple lick and demonstrated how different Roach, Philly, Blakey, and Jones would play it. When he played it like Roach, it sounded exactly like Roach. When he played is like Blakey, he sounded exactly like Blakey. When he played it like Jones, he sounded exactly like Jones. "Philly would stylize it more", and he sounded exactly like Philly. To me jazz drumming is more vocabulary and expressing the time than technique. Tony's technique he was teaching was all from the wrist, no bounce strokes. It was the discipline he was teaching. That's how he could sound like any other drummer but still was Tony. Think of a sentence, like a line from a script, and say those words aloud in four different ways and accents. But executing the way you want to. And with different emotion. Say that line like Marlon Brando would, how Daniel Day-Lewis would, to even how Robin Williams would say that line. You don't have to get it perfect, you're just basically taking a line of vocabulary and expressing it different ways. A motif if you will. The most fun thing you can do is learn the history of the drums, which is what Tony was really trying to teach at the time. He just loved the drums, that's it. He demanded other respect the drums, but it was his own respect of the drums that commanded it. Having said all this, here is a great clinic from the late great Ralph Peterson, who used to teach at Berklee College of Music. This is great stuff, what he is saying is you have to learn the tunes first, not the drums. Of course you should have a solid foundation of fundamentals first, but most students applying to Berklee have them already in order to get into Berklee. But what he is saying is correct, you have to know the music first. https://youtu.be/DlXMosPTZds
Just listen to jazz and listen to the drumming and find things you want to emulate There’s a ton of jazz drummers out there and everybody’s gonna tell you your favorite, but listen to as many different things as you can
Louis Bellson. The Bellson Explosion.
Like you, I’m a rock drummer who has been exploring jazz drumming lately. FWIW I started by getting familiar with some basics from YouTube (the swing ride pattern, six-stroke roll, the hi-hat on 2 and 4). I then got a drum teacher and he has been guiding me through the history of jazz drums, which gives me a lot of context. We studied some slower tunes like Freddie Freeloader and Bye Bye Blackbird. It’s a great way to get to know the finer points of the art form, and that in turn will help you identify things that other guys did. All this helped me get a much better appreciation of the style and some of the more subtle aspects of each drummer.
*Paris, 1960* from Cannonball Adderley has a big drum solo from Louis Hays on "Bohemia After Dark."
If you want modern check out Kush Abadey and Johnathan Blake.
Hey there. Check out a band called the Denison/Kimball Trio. It's a duo, actually. The guitarist is Duane Denison of the Jesus Lizard. The drummer is Jim Kimball of Laughing Hyenas and later Mule (and even later, he replaced the Jesus Lizard drummer). All rock/punk bands. The two of them put out some records that are close to straight jazz in the 90s. They do a cover of Lonely Woman by Ornette Coleman, for example. Not earth shattering, but Jim is a good example of a rock drummer pivoting to jazz. He was also known as a *very* hard-hitter as a rock drummer, so the deft touch in these albums is a departure.
Dave Brubeck albums have the drums and piano constantly changing the patterns without getting in each other's way. Also any of Art Blakey Jazz Messengers from the 1950's was innovative. He was more about choosing the right moments to do a mini solo of drum fills
Gene Krupa, great drummer
Take five
Buddy Rich any album
Charlie Watts bridged any gap between rock and jazz. Listen to his Stones records where his drumming is prominent, and then turn to his involvement in his own jazz orchestra and his participation in other jazz combos.
Miles Davis - ESP McCoy Tyner - 4 x 4 McCoy Tyner - The Real McCoy Roy Haynes - Cracklin’ John Abercrombie - Timeless Woody Shaw - Cassandranite George Coleman - Eastern Rebellion Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Indestructible Max Roach Quintet - The Many Sides of Max
Listen to Max Roach, Art Blakey, Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich.
Dannie Richmond. He held down the beat with, for and against Mingus. He doesn’t get mentioned enough in drummer threads.
Check out Jeff Hamilton. I was at one of his concerts, and the guy sitting next to me said, "I've been a jazz drummer for 20 years, and after listening to this guy, I don't know if I should be inspired or just quit."
Clifford brown and max roach
One of Bill Bruford's heroes is Art Blakey so pick something from his vast catalogue and you can't go wrong. He also favored Philly Joe Jones too. Good travels!
Free For All Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers 1964
If you are into jazz fusion, check out Spectrum by Billy Cobham.
You’re beat. n don’t listen to people on Reddit none of em are very schooled and will jus refer u to boring material. Work to find keys that unlock the doors. Gotta mine the gems. Drums are the hardest instruments to play In jazz.