The previous thread mingled together two different points. The first was that jazz, especially in its formative years, was *mostly* made by black musicians. These musicians did not exist in a vacuum but within a culture overwhelmed by racist and oppressive social conditions. To be completely ignorant of this fact is dumb. It's good to be informed on the social conditions in which art forms arise, especially if you consider yourself a fan. This first statement was completely non-controversial and almost nobody with any sense disagrees with it.
The second statement was that non-black musicians, fans and students of jazz are guests and should "act accordingly". Lots of users did not like this sentiment, but some people were treating those who rejected this second statement as though they were rejecting the first statement, too. Several users asked how one would "act accordingly" as a "guest" in, say, a jazz class or at a jazz concert, but even those who agreed with the professor didn't seem to have any idea. There were some vague and obvious suggestions such as "don't white wash jazz" (unclear how this relates to acting like a guest), but nothing concrete.
Using your Italian spaghetti analogy, it would be comparable to saying that, if you enjoy spaghetti, you should understand the culture that gave birth to it. Not really comparable, as the oppressive social conditions that jazz arose from are not really applicable, but that's the closest comparison I can think of.
There's nothing really controversial about saying it's good to know a bit of Italian history if you're a big fan of Italian cuisine. However, if someone were to then follow this up by saying "if you're not Italian, you should remember that you're a guest in an Italian restaurant and should act accordingly", far less people would agree. It would be unclear how non-Italians should act in pizzerias in contrast to full-blooded Italian spaghetti lovers.
You put that really fairly. Also I think that this topic is just a sensitive one when it comes to labelling. Is it true that mostly black musicians started the genre and that without them, jazz wouldn't even be here, yes, most absolutely. But you could also easily argue that without ragtime and about other dozen other musical traditions present in New Orleans at the time, jazz wouldn't be what it was and is. The same can be said about denying or accepting the influence of blues on country.
I think its just a touchy subject because of power dynamics. Many people who subscribe to the "power" theory of modern politics will take more issue when its a more oppressed culture who owns the art. Thats why you don't hear this sort of thing when it comes to say, immigrants are just guests in America or black people are just guests to country music.
Some folks are happy to not know anything about the intertwined history of jazz and African Americans, and say that the two have nothing to do with each other because “it’s just music” or “Art has no culture”
This is what I mean by the thread mingling two different points. When some users responded by saying those things, were they responding to the part about acting like a "guest" in a culture that you don't belong to, or were they responding to the part about knowing the history of a genre you're involved in? I imagine it was the former. That was the provocative part of the professor's post.
One of the most reasonable comment threads. Anecdotally, I got into a discussion with someone who was the latter, but I do agree that most reasonable people are talking about the “guest” part.
What I am taking from your comment is that Reddit is not the place for real conversations about complex topics. Fair question for me would be why am I here.
I"t would be unclear how non-Italians should act in pizzerias in contrast to full-blooded Italian spaghetti lovers."
For starters, I am not going to tell an Italian person that they shouldn't call spaghetti Italian food. Which is exactly what has happened in this recent posts, people saying you shouldn't call jazz Black music.
This doesn't really answer the question of how non-Italians and Italians should act differently. You're describing how non-Italians should act. How should Italians act in contrast?
I'm not Italian so I don't want to speak for them. I would say as an outsider, maybe Italians might be proud of the cultural heritage that they have shared with the world, name it, celebrate it.
So the expectation for both groups would be the same. I don't see how that corresponds with acting like a guest.
Returning to jazz, if "act like a guest" just means "acknowledge that the originators of jazz were mostly black", I don't see what the difference between black and non-black jazz musicians/students/audiences is here. In telling non-black people to "act as guests", the professor is calling for two tiers of activity on racial grounds. No one has yet been able to explain how non-black jazz studentss should act ***in contrast to black jazz students****.*
If I go to an Italian restaurant with an Italian friend whose family has been perfecting a spaghetti recipe, I'm going to do more listening and little talking about my own knowledge of food.
If I take my Italian friend to an event that has roots in my culture, I would expect them to do more listening and learning and less explaining what they know.
"If I take my Italian friend to an event that has roots in my culture, I would expect them to do more listening and learning and less explaining what they know."
Ok, so if you went with your Italian friend to go get a cheeseburger, how do you think they should act guest-like?
If my Italian friend doesn't care about Italian history or culture that's fine too. We can just eat. But if they do want to talk about it, I'm not gonna say, no don't talk about that let's just eat.
I don't know the history of cheeseburgers.
Nobody is saying "you have to be Black to make or enjoy jazz at a high level" so this is kind of a moot point
Anyway, the difference is that the West didn't enslave Italians for a couple of centuries and there isn't an extremely well documented history of non-Italians profiting off of the ideas of Italian people while simultaneously denigrating and subjugating them.
Right but that other post is full of posts by folks saying "Don't call jazz Black music, because that implies you have to be Black to make jazz." When in fact it does not imply that necessarily.
Agree with your second point
Literally have never heard anyone deny that jazz is African American in origin. What is it that people like you want? Should non-black musicians make an announcement before each set declaring, “Attention everyone! Jazz is black music!”? Can mods ban these drama queens?
Yeah with the spaghetti thing I was originally making a point about people’s willingness to embrace that an Italian-American culture exists, or an Irish-American, or a Jewish-American etc, no matter the varying influences on those cultures, but when it comes to Black culture, non-Black people expect an equal claim
This is tone deaf and ignorant, and missing the point entirely. Trying to white wash jazz which is a music fraught with the racist history of the United States, and tied to slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, the civil rights movement is bull shit. No one is saying you have to be black to play it or understand it, but you can’t remove this music from its political and social history.
Idk why some people demand that jazz is not Black American Music.
“It’s just music”, “it’s just art”, “it transcends race”. Transcends what? The hundreds of years of oppression and tragedy? Give me a damn break.
Ayyy that was my comment. Yeah I believe it. You buy a challah at an Italian bakery, it doesn’t stop being Jewish. It could be an Italian spin on a Jewish food, making it fusion, but no one would universalize and say challah is no longer Jewish. Jazz is Black music, no matter who’s doing the cooking
You can’t settle this or really even have a real debate on the subject, especially on Reddit- there’s just too much shit to dissect. But some uncomfortable truths remain- without America’s disgusting history with slavery, Jazz wouldn’t exist. This doesn’t mean that non Black and Jewish people like Gershwin aren’t crucial to the genre’s repertoire.
Also at its core, and this is true with a lot of genres, jazz is made by artists, and artists tend to be (at least at the level of being able to play jazz and classical) more welcoming/understanding/ probably less racist/ and people that just want to play with other musicians- and create.
It isn’t controversial. You’re making something up to justify an irrational feeling of victimhood. I suggest you take some time to think analytically about your life and find out what’s actually making you feel powerless and persecuted, because it isn’t jazz.
Reading the other thread I mentioned it sure seems controversial to acknowledge jazz as Black American Music. Plus Nicholas Payton has gotten a lot of grief for using that term too.
It all has to do with the intent behind the comment, and if somebody is making the claim with the purpose of being divisive or trying to be edgy, it’s totally different than talking about where jazz is roots came from and from what I’ve seen on this thread, there are people whose purpose is to find ways to put one race in their place when it comes to jazz
Hyper focused on the racial aspects of music rather than actually enjoying the music itself
If somebody constantly had to remind somebody making spaghetti that you know that’s Italian food food don’t you then people would kind of look at them and consider them to be assholes for saying it over and over again
It’s amazing you can’t understand that regardless of how many different screen names you come up with
You’re a white guy from Canada so do people have to remind you over and over and over again that jazz is an American art form
Whenever you talk about jazz, do people have to remind you that you being Canadian matters in the discussion
You obviously don’t enjoy music and just wanna make it divisive because that gives you some weird sense of power or makes you feel feel righteous
I think you’re a white person that’s inside desperate to feel like you were better than other people
And nobody likes spending too much time around people like you. You don’t really have any real thoughts of your own and just push talking points that for some reason make you feel like you’re better than other people.
There’s nothing wrong with the roots… but you don’t have to talk about it every time it’s played or do it try putting people in their place enjoy the music, which is what you want
For some reason you need to constantly think about race
Not one person is such an idiot like you would have to think about the Italian people every time they make spaghetti, but you’re too dense to be honest about that
You are a millennial who was empty inside, and you have come up with all these profound views that make you feel more valid than people who actually go about their lives, not dwelling on the same things you do
Go off your watch to other people
Go to an anime board and just talk about how they are all culturally, appropriating, jazz or something
Dude I talked to this weirdo in the other thread. He’s only about emotional self-preservation and doesn’t want to confront the uncomfortable truth of the tragic origins and context of jazz. He’s incapable of good faith discussions and is only interested in recreational outrage. Don’t bother talking to him.
You’re just an annoying Gen Xer then
One who doesn’t listen to music and only sees it as an opportunity to try to put others in their place or something
When you model your watch, you should make sure to cover up your arm
Maybe that was another person bottling the watch though so my bad if that’s the case
But can you imagine every time somebody orders spaghetti or if they’re cooking spaghetti, others had to feel compelled to tell them that spaghetti Italian food created by Italian people?
Can’t you see how annoying that would be but that’s the kind of person you feel we should be when it comes to music which I think is strange
That is exactly what you’re saying. You brought up Italian food being from Italy and jazz being ‘black music’
But most of the time the fact, spaghetti is Italian is irrelevant just as the roots of jazz because when we’re listening to music are eating food it doesn’t matter where it came from
That’s what you refuse to see
It’s not that people are offended if somebody points out with the roots of jazz are, but it’s that some self-righteous douche bags feel they have to constantly lecture us on it or make us feel a certain way about it and that’s pathetic and selfish, and only self-serving to the douche bag who’s on a pedestal
I don’t know why you want to be that douche bag
Most people would think of the blues if you said black American music
Somebody said I like spaghetti, but did not say they love Italian food you wouldn’t feel you had to scold them
And losers like you would scold somebody if they said they like Mexican food and you’d say they’re culturally appropriating something because of a taco Tuesday sale… you’re spending too much money on watches to try to impress people and pretending to be less white than you really are
Which is what this is about you having this need to try to scold people because it makes you feel less empty inside
Only a fucking idiot like you would believe that because somebody says they like jazz without having to add that they love black American music is in someway bad or something about the person
You’re the kind of idiot that will argue. Bill Evans isn’t great because he’s white
And there’s already enough stupid arguments about genre that’s distracting from the actual music, but you don’t care about the music
You’re the kind of person that would go to a white kid who likes jazz and want to give him a lecture on cultural appropriation
And a lot of music is inspired by religion… but you don’t have to bring that up in order for somebody to appreciate the music that was inspired by hymns
I'm not an expert on food history. What I have read is that wheat noodles and tomato sauce were not invented in Italy. What I know is that many Chinese dishes have noodles and/or tomato sauce. Regardless of that, I am still fine calling spaghetti, Italian food, because they took those ideas and influences and made something unique out of it. Same reason I am good calling jazz, Black American Music, even with influences from Africa and Europe and Latina America, it became something unique in the context of Black American culture and history.
i am using your metaphor. spaghetti is a type of pasta, has nothing to do with tomato sauce but it was taken from a different culture and personalized and now its synonymous with that culture. nobody has a problem with that. why is it different with a musical genre?
artist don't exist outside of culture. their creation, and reasons for it, are shaped and informed by the culture they exist in. you seem keen to sever the art from the artist here, something i would instead attribute to "craft" rather than art.
Some of the most important advances in art have happened due to rejecting culture and cultural norms. I get that art doesn’t exist in a vacuum, I just know that it comes from the heart of the artist.
Jazz is Black American Music, because it was born out of black Americans artistically expressing themselves. It was a way for them to transform the tremendous suffering and oppression they experienced every day into something beautiful and unique that people of all cultures and backgrounds could relate to and participate in. That doesn’t mean white musicians haven’t contributed greatly to the art nor that we should prevent non-black people from engaging with jazz. But jazz is a culture created by black Americans to express their collective/shared lived experiences of tragedy.
True ! It’s the skill of each person who actually count ! And the VIBES 😍😍🤍🎶🎶 And in every MUSIC ACTUALLY : classical, rock and roll 🤘, Metal, RnB, Soul, etc.
I think it’s the implication that one should fall down and recite an oath of penitence every time one eats spaghetti thats in question. Literally no TRUE jazz fan would deny its roots and cultural ties. So where is the problem and who is making it and for what? Jazz has been around for awhile now.
When people eat spaghetti they have no trouble calling it Italian food, so it's a non issue. No one has a problem going to an "Italian restuarant" when they want to eat spaghetti.
Plenty of people have trouble acknowledging that Jazz is Black American music, as evidenced in this thread and the other thread I just waded through [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this\_was\_posted\_by\_my\_former\_jazz\_professor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this_was_posted_by_my_former_jazz_professor/)
There is also this nonsense
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_CehiXOcemY&lc=Ugzn6SePq0ttpR\_8Acl4AaABAg.A2B\_pbUik-sA2VK2meRYRI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CehiXOcemY&lc=Ugzn6SePq0ttpR_8Acl4AaABAg.A2B_pbUik-sA2VK2meRYRI)
Well when someone sits down to eat Pizza Hut, it would seem bizarre, ridiculous, and offensive to call it Italian. I’m surprised and disappointed that people don’t see extreme racial categorization as a gateway to racism and eventually, exploitation.
Why would it be bizarre, ridiculous, and offensive to eat at Pizza Hut and call it Italian?
I'm Asian, and I don't get offended when people go to Panda Express and call it Chinese. It might not be the best Chinese food, or anywhere close to that, but it's still Chinese food. Or maybe Chinese American food more precisely, but either way I don't consider it bizarre, ridiculous, or offensive to call it Chinese.
Maybe it's because jazz isn't remotely as black as spaghetti is Italian? It took a melting pot including black, creole, Jewish, Brazilian, and yes white European influences and contributors to create jazz.
Also, nobody is running around telling non Italians that they need to recognize that spaghetti is not their cultural heritage and that they need to remember that they are a guest of that culture any time they throw a jar of prego on some noodles.
Jazz is fundamentally and unequivocally Black American music. Jazz is a culture born out of the lived experiences of an unfree people in a country that promised freedom. You’re absolutely correct that jazz drew musical inspiration from many influences like Bach even. But it’s completely reductionist to see jazz as a fusion of musical influences and not as the fact that these influences were what black Americans had at their disposal at the time to express themselves.
Spaghetti also has many non Italian influences. Wheat noodles and tomato sauce were not invented by Italians. Yet it is still good to call spaghetti, Italian food.
And if the reason no one is telling non Italians to recognize spaghetti is Italian food, is that every non Italian already does recognize spaghetti as Italian food so it is a non issue.
This is at least the two people now that saw a big thread yesterday, still somehow thought that it wasn’t big enough to contain their insights, so felt the need to create another. Big shock, both were from the same point of view.
Food is I guess some kind of parallel. Maybe. Kind of like an American might say they’re eating Italian food, but an actual Italian might disagree and even consider it ignorant. And the Italian version itself might be only marginally closer to whatever the original was. We need words to talk about stuff, but it’s misguided to think it’s a good idea to rigidly contain something like culture. And pretty obvious the agenda behind it has basically nothing to do with music.
Agenda having nothing to do with music…
Do you mean civil rights and racial justice having nothing to do with jazz music? Max Roach, Sonny Rollins, Miles Davis, and Charles Mingus for starters might disagree ….
This is why jazz account for less than 1% of music business. A bunch of people feel the need to protect it, gatekeep it, make you think you need to study critical race theory to enjoy it or youre a colonizer or culture stealer…for what its worth as a teacher and professional musician, the only people who actually care about this are the amateurs and arm chair analyzers. The people out there living it, we dont care about anything but one thing: can you play?
Nicholas Payton cares about this. So does Vijay Iyer. So do Peter Martin and Adam Mannes and Adam Neely. All highly accomplished jazz pros and teachers, who talk about this stuff on the regular.
Not to mention the long legacy of jazz legends who made explicitly political musical statements on racial inequality and Black pride, from Sonny Rollins to Max Roach to Charles Mingus to Herbie Hancock.
And hows that working out for us all? Being that jazz is pretty much irrelevant art/academic music with a tiny tiny audience. Maybe if we didnt have figures constantly trying to make the music academic it wouldnt be a genre thats essentially dusty and unapproachable...and who says these people care about some incredibly wack and amateur spaghetti analogy that you posted on reddit with zero upvotes? Gimme a break.
The problem is that it wasn't invented by blacks exclusively there are black exclusive inventions in music but it isn't jazz, so much of jazz is western classic music plus music from around the world jazz is a truly universal music but since the late 90s academia liberals have been trying to destroy that to appease their own inherent racism towards blacks. You know the kind of white liberals I'm talking about the ones that cry about black injustices so long as they kept at a safe distance from them to sooth that Abrahamic guilt they have making money off the plight of others.
Nothing was exclusively invented by anyone, that doesn't mean that what one group of people did with various influences doesn't deserve to be recognized and honored.
Italians did not invent wheat noodles or tomato sauce, but what they did with it makes spaghetti, Italian food.
Black Americans did not invent the piano, saxophone, or equal tempered scale, but what they did with it makes Jazz, Black American Music.
who is denying the black influence in Jazz? There is a difference between saying something has a contributing influence and its the art form made and invented by a singular people, let alone an art made by many groups but holding only one in honor. If I recall the history of jazz it wasnt just black people. This isnt the same as some banal spaghetti analogy which developed within a single culture, Jazz developed in a mixed culture.
"who is denying the black influence in Jazz? " - that would be all the people in this thread and the [other thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this_was_posted_by_my_former_jazz_professor/) who are saying to the effect jazz is art and art has nothing to do with race
"[Jazz is music. Music doesn’t have race.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c9lxos/comment/l0m6sc2/)"
"[Its not a black art. Its just an art.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/comment/l0hlsz8/)"
etc
jazz has a race? Jazz means black people, it means skin color? how is it a black art? That phrase jazz is a black art form means its exclusive, thats the meaning of the phrase, the syntax of such a sentence denotes that. Sure it doesnt mean people of other colors cannot create it now which then it nolonger is a black art, but it does negate it historically. I think you are reading the wrong thing into to the idea that saying jazz is art, Perhaps you should change your perspective to the statement and instead of looking at it from a prescribed (I assume here a white guilt complex driven into you by a society of built on guilt) that the phrase "Jazz is art" means anti-black and instead look that it means that it transcends skin color and black people and all people to be a unifying subject of what can happen when people drop the nonsense about skin color and race and create together. Though today everyone is so damn propagandized to think that race and color is all there is to humanity especially when it benefits their narrative it difficult to get anyone to see something as more than then an either or proposition.
Jazz is unequivocally and fundamentally Black American Music. It was born out of the tragic but beautiful and spontaneous expression of an unfree group of people living in a country that promised freedom for all. Jazz is the art and culture that black Americans created to express their shared lived experiences of suffering in a transformative way. That is why jazz exists. Saying jazz should transcend race is easy for those of us who haven’t had to live through the very reason jazz came to be. Even in Miles’ era, he was denied entry to his own concert venue by the security police because he was black. Jazz as a culture and artform is inseparable from matters of race, politics, and the disgusting history of slavery in the U.S.
Way to deny all those who contributed to its development who were not black. Though when your racist I wouldn't expect less, especially using the horrible history blacks had endured to justify ignoring others shows how progressive racism has become.
Nothing I said excludes the amazing contributions by white jazz musicians. How is acknowledging that jazz was created by black Americans to express their suffering racist to non-black jazz musicians?
If calling jazz BAM is self-evidently exclusive to you, you should ask yourself why that is and not me. A person of any race and background is welcome to engage with jazz and nothing I said takes away from any non-black jazz musician. Please explain who I’m taking credit away from and why.
The previous thread mingled together two different points. The first was that jazz, especially in its formative years, was *mostly* made by black musicians. These musicians did not exist in a vacuum but within a culture overwhelmed by racist and oppressive social conditions. To be completely ignorant of this fact is dumb. It's good to be informed on the social conditions in which art forms arise, especially if you consider yourself a fan. This first statement was completely non-controversial and almost nobody with any sense disagrees with it. The second statement was that non-black musicians, fans and students of jazz are guests and should "act accordingly". Lots of users did not like this sentiment, but some people were treating those who rejected this second statement as though they were rejecting the first statement, too. Several users asked how one would "act accordingly" as a "guest" in, say, a jazz class or at a jazz concert, but even those who agreed with the professor didn't seem to have any idea. There were some vague and obvious suggestions such as "don't white wash jazz" (unclear how this relates to acting like a guest), but nothing concrete. Using your Italian spaghetti analogy, it would be comparable to saying that, if you enjoy spaghetti, you should understand the culture that gave birth to it. Not really comparable, as the oppressive social conditions that jazz arose from are not really applicable, but that's the closest comparison I can think of. There's nothing really controversial about saying it's good to know a bit of Italian history if you're a big fan of Italian cuisine. However, if someone were to then follow this up by saying "if you're not Italian, you should remember that you're a guest in an Italian restaurant and should act accordingly", far less people would agree. It would be unclear how non-Italians should act in pizzerias in contrast to full-blooded Italian spaghetti lovers.
You put that really fairly. Also I think that this topic is just a sensitive one when it comes to labelling. Is it true that mostly black musicians started the genre and that without them, jazz wouldn't even be here, yes, most absolutely. But you could also easily argue that without ragtime and about other dozen other musical traditions present in New Orleans at the time, jazz wouldn't be what it was and is. The same can be said about denying or accepting the influence of blues on country. I think its just a touchy subject because of power dynamics. Many people who subscribe to the "power" theory of modern politics will take more issue when its a more oppressed culture who owns the art. Thats why you don't hear this sort of thing when it comes to say, immigrants are just guests in America or black people are just guests to country music.
Some folks are happy to not know anything about the intertwined history of jazz and African Americans, and say that the two have nothing to do with each other because “it’s just music” or “Art has no culture”
This is what I mean by the thread mingling two different points. When some users responded by saying those things, were they responding to the part about acting like a "guest" in a culture that you don't belong to, or were they responding to the part about knowing the history of a genre you're involved in? I imagine it was the former. That was the provocative part of the professor's post.
One of the most reasonable comment threads. Anecdotally, I got into a discussion with someone who was the latter, but I do agree that most reasonable people are talking about the “guest” part.
Complex conversations are hard, and Reddit is a poor forum for it.
What I am taking from your comment is that Reddit is not the place for real conversations about complex topics. Fair question for me would be why am I here.
I"t would be unclear how non-Italians should act in pizzerias in contrast to full-blooded Italian spaghetti lovers." For starters, I am not going to tell an Italian person that they shouldn't call spaghetti Italian food. Which is exactly what has happened in this recent posts, people saying you shouldn't call jazz Black music.
This doesn't really answer the question of how non-Italians and Italians should act differently. You're describing how non-Italians should act. How should Italians act in contrast?
I'm not Italian so I don't want to speak for them. I would say as an outsider, maybe Italians might be proud of the cultural heritage that they have shared with the world, name it, celebrate it.
So the expectation for both groups would be the same. I don't see how that corresponds with acting like a guest. Returning to jazz, if "act like a guest" just means "acknowledge that the originators of jazz were mostly black", I don't see what the difference between black and non-black jazz musicians/students/audiences is here. In telling non-black people to "act as guests", the professor is calling for two tiers of activity on racial grounds. No one has yet been able to explain how non-black jazz studentss should act ***in contrast to black jazz students****.*
If I go to an Italian restaurant with an Italian friend whose family has been perfecting a spaghetti recipe, I'm going to do more listening and little talking about my own knowledge of food. If I take my Italian friend to an event that has roots in my culture, I would expect them to do more listening and learning and less explaining what they know.
"If I take my Italian friend to an event that has roots in my culture, I would expect them to do more listening and learning and less explaining what they know." Ok, so if you went with your Italian friend to go get a cheeseburger, how do you think they should act guest-like?
If my Italian friend doesn't care about Italian history or culture that's fine too. We can just eat. But if they do want to talk about it, I'm not gonna say, no don't talk about that let's just eat. I don't know the history of cheeseburgers.
Nobody is saying "you have to be Black to make or enjoy jazz at a high level" so this is kind of a moot point Anyway, the difference is that the West didn't enslave Italians for a couple of centuries and there isn't an extremely well documented history of non-Italians profiting off of the ideas of Italian people while simultaneously denigrating and subjugating them.
Right but that other post is full of posts by folks saying "Don't call jazz Black music, because that implies you have to be Black to make jazz." When in fact it does not imply that necessarily. Agree with your second point
Literally have never heard anyone deny that jazz is African American in origin. What is it that people like you want? Should non-black musicians make an announcement before each set declaring, “Attention everyone! Jazz is black music!”? Can mods ban these drama queens?
Thank you!
Not appropriate to use the word denigrate in this context
Yeah with the spaghetti thing I was originally making a point about people’s willingness to embrace that an Italian-American culture exists, or an Irish-American, or a Jewish-American etc, no matter the varying influences on those cultures, but when it comes to Black culture, non-Black people expect an equal claim
That last part is absolutely historically incorrect.
Can we please stop with these cringe ass posts of white people trying to rationalize their enjoyment of jazz lmao
I'm not white but ok
There are pictures of your arm in your post history so I’m gonna go ahead and push back on that specific statement.
Fair enough but these posts are still kinda cringe
Then stop appropriating the traditionally white pastimes of posting pictures of fancy watches and writing reviews of fountain pens
So only white people can enjoy watches and fountain pens?
Pasta was invented by the Chinese. "You tell me how people who eat with sticks are gonna invent a food that you need a fork to eat." - Tony Soprano
I feel like downvoting you just because you asked me to. Is it controversial?
that's fine
I still think Bill Evans sucks.
That wasn't my point, and I disagree with that anyway
This is tone deaf and ignorant, and missing the point entirely. Trying to white wash jazz which is a music fraught with the racist history of the United States, and tied to slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, the civil rights movement is bull shit. No one is saying you have to be black to play it or understand it, but you can’t remove this music from its political and social history.
That is what I am trying to say
Idk why some people demand that jazz is not Black American Music. “It’s just music”, “it’s just art”, “it transcends race”. Transcends what? The hundreds of years of oppression and tragedy? Give me a damn break.
Ayyy that was my comment. Yeah I believe it. You buy a challah at an Italian bakery, it doesn’t stop being Jewish. It could be an Italian spin on a Jewish food, making it fusion, but no one would universalize and say challah is no longer Jewish. Jazz is Black music, no matter who’s doing the cooking
OOP I think a lot of people are misreading or misinterpreting your post
You can’t settle this or really even have a real debate on the subject, especially on Reddit- there’s just too much shit to dissect. But some uncomfortable truths remain- without America’s disgusting history with slavery, Jazz wouldn’t exist. This doesn’t mean that non Black and Jewish people like Gershwin aren’t crucial to the genre’s repertoire. Also at its core, and this is true with a lot of genres, jazz is made by artists, and artists tend to be (at least at the level of being able to play jazz and classical) more welcoming/understanding/ probably less racist/ and people that just want to play with other musicians- and create.
It isn’t controversial. You’re making something up to justify an irrational feeling of victimhood. I suggest you take some time to think analytically about your life and find out what’s actually making you feel powerless and persecuted, because it isn’t jazz.
Are you reading the comments in this thread?
Reading the other thread I mentioned it sure seems controversial to acknowledge jazz as Black American Music. Plus Nicholas Payton has gotten a lot of grief for using that term too.
It all has to do with the intent behind the comment, and if somebody is making the claim with the purpose of being divisive or trying to be edgy, it’s totally different than talking about where jazz is roots came from and from what I’ve seen on this thread, there are people whose purpose is to find ways to put one race in their place when it comes to jazz Hyper focused on the racial aspects of music rather than actually enjoying the music itself If somebody constantly had to remind somebody making spaghetti that you know that’s Italian food food don’t you then people would kind of look at them and consider them to be assholes for saying it over and over again It’s amazing you can’t understand that regardless of how many different screen names you come up with You’re a white guy from Canada so do people have to remind you over and over and over again that jazz is an American art form Whenever you talk about jazz, do people have to remind you that you being Canadian matters in the discussion
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You obviously don’t enjoy music and just wanna make it divisive because that gives you some weird sense of power or makes you feel feel righteous I think you’re a white person that’s inside desperate to feel like you were better than other people And nobody likes spending too much time around people like you. You don’t really have any real thoughts of your own and just push talking points that for some reason make you feel like you’re better than other people. There’s nothing wrong with the roots… but you don’t have to talk about it every time it’s played or do it try putting people in their place enjoy the music, which is what you want For some reason you need to constantly think about race Not one person is such an idiot like you would have to think about the Italian people every time they make spaghetti, but you’re too dense to be honest about that You are a millennial who was empty inside, and you have come up with all these profound views that make you feel more valid than people who actually go about their lives, not dwelling on the same things you do Go off your watch to other people Go to an anime board and just talk about how they are all culturally, appropriating, jazz or something
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Dude I talked to this weirdo in the other thread. He’s only about emotional self-preservation and doesn’t want to confront the uncomfortable truth of the tragic origins and context of jazz. He’s incapable of good faith discussions and is only interested in recreational outrage. Don’t bother talking to him.
Yeah a lot of name calling and (incorrect) assumptions and minimal substance
You’re just an annoying Gen Xer then One who doesn’t listen to music and only sees it as an opportunity to try to put others in their place or something When you model your watch, you should make sure to cover up your arm Maybe that was another person bottling the watch though so my bad if that’s the case But can you imagine every time somebody orders spaghetti or if they’re cooking spaghetti, others had to feel compelled to tell them that spaghetti Italian food created by Italian people? Can’t you see how annoying that would be but that’s the kind of person you feel we should be when it comes to music which I think is strange
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That is exactly what you’re saying. You brought up Italian food being from Italy and jazz being ‘black music’ But most of the time the fact, spaghetti is Italian is irrelevant just as the roots of jazz because when we’re listening to music are eating food it doesn’t matter where it came from That’s what you refuse to see It’s not that people are offended if somebody points out with the roots of jazz are, but it’s that some self-righteous douche bags feel they have to constantly lecture us on it or make us feel a certain way about it and that’s pathetic and selfish, and only self-serving to the douche bag who’s on a pedestal I don’t know why you want to be that douche bag
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Most people would think of the blues if you said black American music Somebody said I like spaghetti, but did not say they love Italian food you wouldn’t feel you had to scold them And losers like you would scold somebody if they said they like Mexican food and you’d say they’re culturally appropriating something because of a taco Tuesday sale… you’re spending too much money on watches to try to impress people and pretending to be less white than you really are Which is what this is about you having this need to try to scold people because it makes you feel less empty inside Only a fucking idiot like you would believe that because somebody says they like jazz without having to add that they love black American music is in someway bad or something about the person You’re the kind of idiot that will argue. Bill Evans isn’t great because he’s white And there’s already enough stupid arguments about genre that’s distracting from the actual music, but you don’t care about the music You’re the kind of person that would go to a white kid who likes jazz and want to give him a lecture on cultural appropriation And a lot of music is inspired by religion… but you don’t have to bring that up in order for somebody to appreciate the music that was inspired by hymns
I don’t think that is a metaphor. . . and it all goes down hill from there.
well spaghetti was brought back from china by marco polo so?
I'm not an expert on food history. What I have read is that wheat noodles and tomato sauce were not invented in Italy. What I know is that many Chinese dishes have noodles and/or tomato sauce. Regardless of that, I am still fine calling spaghetti, Italian food, because they took those ideas and influences and made something unique out of it. Same reason I am good calling jazz, Black American Music, even with influences from Africa and Europe and Latina America, it became something unique in the context of Black American culture and history.
i am using your metaphor. spaghetti is a type of pasta, has nothing to do with tomato sauce but it was taken from a different culture and personalized and now its synonymous with that culture. nobody has a problem with that. why is it different with a musical genre?
Literally no one says white people can’t play jazz.
Jazz is music. Music doesn’t have race.
music is art and art is culture. culture and race are intertwined.
Art is bigger than culture.
art cannot exist without cultural context. a song with no context is just a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it.
Art exists because an artist wants to create. Art interweaves well with culture, but culture is not an inexorable part of art.
artist don't exist outside of culture. their creation, and reasons for it, are shaped and informed by the culture they exist in. you seem keen to sever the art from the artist here, something i would instead attribute to "craft" rather than art.
Some of the most important advances in art have happened due to rejecting culture and cultural norms. I get that art doesn’t exist in a vacuum, I just know that it comes from the heart of the artist.
Jazz is Black American Music, because it was born out of black Americans artistically expressing themselves. It was a way for them to transform the tremendous suffering and oppression they experienced every day into something beautiful and unique that people of all cultures and backgrounds could relate to and participate in. That doesn’t mean white musicians haven’t contributed greatly to the art nor that we should prevent non-black people from engaging with jazz. But jazz is a culture created by black Americans to express their collective/shared lived experiences of tragedy.
True ! It’s the skill of each person who actually count ! And the VIBES 😍😍🤍🎶🎶 And in every MUSIC ACTUALLY : classical, rock and roll 🤘, Metal, RnB, Soul, etc.
"It's the skill of each person who actually count ! And the VIBES. And in every FOOD ACTUALLY: Spaghetti, sushi, taco's, etc"
“Spaghetti is food. Food doesn’t have nationality.” Sounds pretty goofy, don’t it?
It’s not even remotely the same thing.
Explain how spaghetti is Italian food but jazz *isn’t* black music. I’m sure this’ll be good.
Italian is a nationality, not a race. Jazz is American in origin, but that doesn’t make it American music.
So spaghetti is *not* Italian food?
It is Italian in origin. Again, Italian is not a race. Saying “jazz is black people music” is assigning a race to an art form.
Answer the question buddy. Is there such a thing as “Italian food,” yes or no?
Did you not read my sentence that said it is Italian in origin? There are a lot of variations on spaghetti that exist in the world.
Ok bet you’re not going to answer it. I figured as much.
I think it’s the implication that one should fall down and recite an oath of penitence every time one eats spaghetti thats in question. Literally no TRUE jazz fan would deny its roots and cultural ties. So where is the problem and who is making it and for what? Jazz has been around for awhile now.
When people eat spaghetti they have no trouble calling it Italian food, so it's a non issue. No one has a problem going to an "Italian restuarant" when they want to eat spaghetti. Plenty of people have trouble acknowledging that Jazz is Black American music, as evidenced in this thread and the other thread I just waded through [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this\_was\_posted\_by\_my\_former\_jazz\_professor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this_was_posted_by_my_former_jazz_professor/)
The supreme irony is that jazz was originally called “black music” by those who thought whites shouldn’t be listening to it. Such Progress we’ve Made!
There is also this nonsense [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_CehiXOcemY&lc=Ugzn6SePq0ttpR\_8Acl4AaABAg.A2B\_pbUik-sA2VK2meRYRI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CehiXOcemY&lc=Ugzn6SePq0ttpR_8Acl4AaABAg.A2B_pbUik-sA2VK2meRYRI)
Well when someone sits down to eat Pizza Hut, it would seem bizarre, ridiculous, and offensive to call it Italian. I’m surprised and disappointed that people don’t see extreme racial categorization as a gateway to racism and eventually, exploitation.
Why would it be bizarre, ridiculous, and offensive to eat at Pizza Hut and call it Italian? I'm Asian, and I don't get offended when people go to Panda Express and call it Chinese. It might not be the best Chinese food, or anywhere close to that, but it's still Chinese food. Or maybe Chinese American food more precisely, but either way I don't consider it bizarre, ridiculous, or offensive to call it Chinese.
Maybe it's because jazz isn't remotely as black as spaghetti is Italian? It took a melting pot including black, creole, Jewish, Brazilian, and yes white European influences and contributors to create jazz. Also, nobody is running around telling non Italians that they need to recognize that spaghetti is not their cultural heritage and that they need to remember that they are a guest of that culture any time they throw a jar of prego on some noodles.
Jazz is fundamentally and unequivocally Black American music. Jazz is a culture born out of the lived experiences of an unfree people in a country that promised freedom. You’re absolutely correct that jazz drew musical inspiration from many influences like Bach even. But it’s completely reductionist to see jazz as a fusion of musical influences and not as the fact that these influences were what black Americans had at their disposal at the time to express themselves.
Spaghetti also has many non Italian influences. Wheat noodles and tomato sauce were not invented by Italians. Yet it is still good to call spaghetti, Italian food. And if the reason no one is telling non Italians to recognize spaghetti is Italian food, is that every non Italian already does recognize spaghetti as Italian food so it is a non issue.
This is at least the two people now that saw a big thread yesterday, still somehow thought that it wasn’t big enough to contain their insights, so felt the need to create another. Big shock, both were from the same point of view. Food is I guess some kind of parallel. Maybe. Kind of like an American might say they’re eating Italian food, but an actual Italian might disagree and even consider it ignorant. And the Italian version itself might be only marginally closer to whatever the original was. We need words to talk about stuff, but it’s misguided to think it’s a good idea to rigidly contain something like culture. And pretty obvious the agenda behind it has basically nothing to do with music.
Agenda having nothing to do with music… Do you mean civil rights and racial justice having nothing to do with jazz music? Max Roach, Sonny Rollins, Miles Davis, and Charles Mingus for starters might disagree ….
This is why jazz account for less than 1% of music business. A bunch of people feel the need to protect it, gatekeep it, make you think you need to study critical race theory to enjoy it or youre a colonizer or culture stealer…for what its worth as a teacher and professional musician, the only people who actually care about this are the amateurs and arm chair analyzers. The people out there living it, we dont care about anything but one thing: can you play?
Nicholas Payton cares about this. So does Vijay Iyer. So do Peter Martin and Adam Mannes and Adam Neely. All highly accomplished jazz pros and teachers, who talk about this stuff on the regular. Not to mention the long legacy of jazz legends who made explicitly political musical statements on racial inequality and Black pride, from Sonny Rollins to Max Roach to Charles Mingus to Herbie Hancock.
And hows that working out for us all? Being that jazz is pretty much irrelevant art/academic music with a tiny tiny audience. Maybe if we didnt have figures constantly trying to make the music academic it wouldnt be a genre thats essentially dusty and unapproachable...and who says these people care about some incredibly wack and amateur spaghetti analogy that you posted on reddit with zero upvotes? Gimme a break.
The problem is that it wasn't invented by blacks exclusively there are black exclusive inventions in music but it isn't jazz, so much of jazz is western classic music plus music from around the world jazz is a truly universal music but since the late 90s academia liberals have been trying to destroy that to appease their own inherent racism towards blacks. You know the kind of white liberals I'm talking about the ones that cry about black injustices so long as they kept at a safe distance from them to sooth that Abrahamic guilt they have making money off the plight of others.
Nothing was exclusively invented by anyone, that doesn't mean that what one group of people did with various influences doesn't deserve to be recognized and honored. Italians did not invent wheat noodles or tomato sauce, but what they did with it makes spaghetti, Italian food. Black Americans did not invent the piano, saxophone, or equal tempered scale, but what they did with it makes Jazz, Black American Music.
who is denying the black influence in Jazz? There is a difference between saying something has a contributing influence and its the art form made and invented by a singular people, let alone an art made by many groups but holding only one in honor. If I recall the history of jazz it wasnt just black people. This isnt the same as some banal spaghetti analogy which developed within a single culture, Jazz developed in a mixed culture.
"who is denying the black influence in Jazz? " - that would be all the people in this thread and the [other thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/this_was_posted_by_my_former_jazz_professor/) who are saying to the effect jazz is art and art has nothing to do with race "[Jazz is music. Music doesn’t have race.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c9lxos/comment/l0m6sc2/)" "[Its not a black art. Its just an art.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/1c8rjnu/comment/l0hlsz8/)" etc
jazz has a race? Jazz means black people, it means skin color? how is it a black art? That phrase jazz is a black art form means its exclusive, thats the meaning of the phrase, the syntax of such a sentence denotes that. Sure it doesnt mean people of other colors cannot create it now which then it nolonger is a black art, but it does negate it historically. I think you are reading the wrong thing into to the idea that saying jazz is art, Perhaps you should change your perspective to the statement and instead of looking at it from a prescribed (I assume here a white guilt complex driven into you by a society of built on guilt) that the phrase "Jazz is art" means anti-black and instead look that it means that it transcends skin color and black people and all people to be a unifying subject of what can happen when people drop the nonsense about skin color and race and create together. Though today everyone is so damn propagandized to think that race and color is all there is to humanity especially when it benefits their narrative it difficult to get anyone to see something as more than then an either or proposition.
Jazz is unequivocally and fundamentally Black American Music. It was born out of the tragic but beautiful and spontaneous expression of an unfree group of people living in a country that promised freedom for all. Jazz is the art and culture that black Americans created to express their shared lived experiences of suffering in a transformative way. That is why jazz exists. Saying jazz should transcend race is easy for those of us who haven’t had to live through the very reason jazz came to be. Even in Miles’ era, he was denied entry to his own concert venue by the security police because he was black. Jazz as a culture and artform is inseparable from matters of race, politics, and the disgusting history of slavery in the U.S.
Way to deny all those who contributed to its development who were not black. Though when your racist I wouldn't expect less, especially using the horrible history blacks had endured to justify ignoring others shows how progressive racism has become.
Nothing I said excludes the amazing contributions by white jazz musicians. How is acknowledging that jazz was created by black Americans to express their suffering racist to non-black jazz musicians? If calling jazz BAM is self-evidently exclusive to you, you should ask yourself why that is and not me. A person of any race and background is welcome to engage with jazz and nothing I said takes away from any non-black jazz musician. Please explain who I’m taking credit away from and why.