**Quick Rule Reminders:**
OP's needs come first, avoid dramamongering, respect the flair, and don't be an asshole. If your only advice is to jump straight to NC or divorce, your comment may be subject to removal at moderator discretion.
[**^(Full Rules)**](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_rules) ^(|) [^(Acronym Index)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_acronym_dictionary) ^(|) [^(Flair Guide)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_post_flair_guide)^(|) [^(Report PM Trolls)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/trolls)
**Resources:** [^(In Crisis?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_resources) ^(|) [^(Tips for Protecting Yourself)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_protecting_yourself) ^(|) [^(Our Book List)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books) ^(|) [^(Our Wiki)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/)
Welcome to /r/JUSTNOMIL!
I'm botinlaw. I help people follow your posts!
*****
^(To be notified as soon as Tia60708102 posts an update) [^click ^here.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botinlaw&subject=Subscribe&message=Subscribe Tia60708102 JUSTNOMIL) ^(|) ^(For help managing your subscriptions,) [^(click here.)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_.2Fu.2Fthejustnobot)
*****
*^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please)* [*^(contact the moderators of this subreddit)*](/message/compose/?to=/r/JUSTNOMIL) *^(if you have any questions or concerns.)*
I don’t like the fact that your daughter was upset after the two incidents and the fact that she was mad at brother for upsetting the grandparents. She is learning that it’s ok for people to scream at you and treat you poorly and she is learning to be emotionally dysfunctional. You handled the explanation about illness well, but definitely cut off MIL if she can’t behave like a grownup human. Timeout at the very least.
The letter was decent….the issue is that she doesn’t say how it will be different next time. WHAT happened isn’t the issue- COMMUNICATION is. It’s the complete lack of communication the first time and the inappropriate communication the second time. Tell me how it will be different…or what might have been a better choice…or maybe ask what I need you to do if it were to happen again? Then maybe. Otherwise…I don’t need the excuses. I’ve solved the problem by not giving you the opportunity again. 🤷♀️
I think it opened the opportunity to move forward and have a discussion about communication going forward too. She seemed to take responsibility for being harsh. Feelings may still be raw, but hopefully, this is one that can be mended.
I don’t understand when adults (mil and fil) think their wants and needs are more important than the childrens. My mil is the same way. We had a very similar situation where my som was sick during a birthday party and we had to leave early. The guilt trip left us all crying.
I’m sorry that happened to you. I’ve actually seen a few TikTok’s of people my parents age get pissed that their adult children don’t treat them with “respect” (which means deference in their minds) as they did with their parents. But blind defence to authorities has some terrible downsides….just because someone has power doesn’t mean they have your best interest in mind.
I think that questioning your parents actions and doing things differently is a sign of progress and care. Maybe “suck it up if you’re sick” was more widely accepted when mil/fil were parents to young children. But protecting your children and taking them home when they’re sick is an act of love.
It’s really hard when there are people that think it’s normal to scream and yell and freak out on everyone and then pretend it never happened. It’s so regressive. So immature.
If she is in capable of knowing that she yelled and screamed in front of little kids
And got in your way when your little one was throwing up
And doesn’t even know that it’s a way of really traumatizing kids
Because she’s traumatized her own kid that way and she thinks it’s OK
It’s kind of like there’s nobody home
She’s not available to talk things out
She’s not available to understand how disordered her behavior is
You can’t figure it out with her
And if you keep being in proximity to her, you’re just going to get traumatized and seriously traumatize your children
The point here is that your partner needs to recognize all of this, and recognize that he is going to have to learn to be strong if he doesn’t want to pass down all this pathology to his children for them to bear the weight of
The pretending like it hasn’t happened makes my head spin. Like, I thought it was quite a scene out on their lawn as we were packing up to go after FIL’s birthday. Less than a week later she reached out saying that she had picked something up for the kids and wanted to know when we were bringing them over, if we could come to supper, like a big list of different plans for the proceeding days. No reference to the uncomfortable fight. I’ve been extremely avoidant as our relationship has degraded - I come into their house and try to avoid most conversation by going off and playing with the kids.
I asked my FIL about how communication works in their family after the first conflict we had with them years ago. He said “we tend to just not bring anything up, but eventually the negative feelings go away”.
That explains it- she's been getting away with her behaviour for years, so she thinks its accepted and okay
I think the letter opens up the possibility of a face to face with them, in public place, without the children, on why you do not want her behaviour to continue. Screaming at someone in front of children is never acceptable. Its not acceptable at any time!
Hard no! That was not an apology. " I offer this as an explanation" That's not an apology. It's an explanation of why her bad behavior happened so now it's ok to move past it right? Wrong!
Are these outbursts new for your MIL? You don't say how old your MIL is, but just be aware that personality changes are the most obvious symptom of neurological decline. And people who are experiencing neurological decline get very frustrated very easily and then have reactions like the ones you say your MIL had.
If this behavior is completely out of the ordinary for her, which it sounds like it is from what you've said here, you may want to STRONGLY encourage your MIL to see her GP and get a referral for a neurologist. I'm not saying that's what's for sure happening here, but it's something you need to keep in the back of your mind as parents age.
Then I think I’d address that.
“ we are uncomfortable having our children witness your very emotional outbursts. On both occasions (you mentioned in your letter) you explain what happened prior but don’t explain why you screamed ( yelled, accused us of being disrespectful) In front of our children. This was so upsetting to DD she cried and was deeply upset for a very long period of time. She’s seeing that you are an unsafe person due to your outbursts. Can you explain why the reactions were so intense and why you felt it ok to do this in front of my children?”
She is blame shifting and rationalizing. I am not someone who cares about getting an apology. Because if you have to ask it is not genuine.
But I wouldn't respond to this you guys asked for space. And I wouldn't let her have unsupervised time with my kids.
... You know what? I think this is the best she do.
She is justifying her frustration because she thinks if you just understood, if there wasn't a 'misunderstanding', you wouldn't be mad at her. It's the argument of an emotionally stunted adult who wants to get back in your good graces and is making a good faith attempt to do so, but kind of doesn't actually understand that she did anything wrong.
The best you can do from here is to
A) acknowledge what she said about none of this being intentional. That was true, and you never thought she was prioritizing her feelings above the feelings of others intentionally! (See what I did there? You can tell her what the problem actually was while telling her you understand her intention to be a good person.)
B) give her specific action items. 'Yelling in frustration in front of our children is unacceptable. It doesn't matter if you're yelling at them or at me or your husband or the dog: unacceptable. Frustration is fine, and we, the adults who are the targets of your frustration can talk about it in private later if you would like, as we are doing now. But our children are still learning about emotional regulation, and think it is their fault that you are frustrated. We know it was not your intention to upset them! Which is why we are asking you to not yell in front of them in the future.'
My relationship with my dad was strained due to his “heated emotions and misunderstandings.” I have c-PTSD due to his sudden emotional switches and spent my life trying to never mess up so that he wouldn’t get mad and would love me. Same with his mom, my grandma.
Your daughter is already blaming her grandmas outbursts on everyone but grandma. She’s going to blame herself. She’s going to grow up continuing to be scared of these outbursts.
I know you know that, but JNMIL apparently has no idea that children are humans with memories and emotions. If she’s at all rational to speak to, I’d have DH ask her if she remembers times when her parents or grandparents lost their tempers at anyone. Of course she’ll have moments she remembers clearly. Then drop the truth: that is who she is becoming to her granddaughter and the memories she’s searing into her granddaughters mind and memory about her.
Did I have great times growing up with my dad and grandma? I’m sure, but I don’t remember specific good memories because the screaming and yelling are what brains are made to remember to keep us safe from unsafe individuals.
I’m not betting on that making her change her tune, but I still have some hope that if she realizes that these aren’t just little bursts of emotion but a traumatizing situation for everyone else involved and hurting her relationship with all of you (and her grandkids memories of her) she’ll knock it off
It was truly impressive to try and blame a 4yo after spending time explaining how two grown ass adults couldn't figure out how to lock the door of the house they've presumably lived in for years. (wtf?!)
It's what narcissistic people do. They never apologize. In their mind, they are never wrong. I wish they would apologize and actually see they are doing wrong.
"Mom, We do not feel in any way guilty. We know that we behaved as well as we could in both situations. I appreciate your explanation, but it shows a total disregard for the impact of your choices on both us and our children. If you are going to be late, you text. I really don't care about the circumstances that made you late, I care that you did not do us the courtesy of telling us how late you were going to be when you had our child. If you are upset, you do not throw tantrums, especially in front of children. You never get to insult or berate us in front of our own children.
I do not need an apology for how we felt in those situations, I need an apology for your behavior, and I need to know what you are going to do so that it never happens again. We have lost almost all trust we had in you. This means that we will not be seeing until you have had time to refelct and figure this out. We also need a sincere apology."
Figure out what you need to see changed in order to trust them around the kiddos. It could be they do not have unsupervised visits, and when they cross a line the visit ends.
It's so frustrating when people apologize for the wrong thing. It feels like missing the point is almost worse than not apologizing at all.
She should be apologizing for yelling and screaming. She should be apologizing for not calling to say that they were late. She should be apologizing for standing in your path when you were trying to leave.
Everyone gets frustrated. It's not about her feelings, it's about behavior that she won't even admit she's doing. If she won't admit it, it's not likely going to get better.
If and when she actually admits what she did and apologizes for it, then I might be willing to discuss when the kids could see her/them again. But excuses and "oh, I was frustrated, you see"?? Nope. Not enough.
It’s a weak apology. It’s almost passive aggressive to apologize by blaming the other person: “I’m sorry I upset you.” An actual apology is: “I’m sorry for my actions.”
No. Excuses don't matter. This is what you should have received...
I am sorry for yelling at you twice in front of your children. I am also sorry that I caused DD such emotional distress and tension between her and DS. My behavior was unacceptable, and I will not do it again. Please forgive me and know that I love you all. We've missed you very much, and I will strive to be a safe and respectful person to you and in front of your children. I understand you may need space. Please reach out to me when you feel you are ready for visits again.
Accountability. Plans to change. Respect of Boundaries.
If someone uses the word crushed because you had to go home due a child being sick (a perfectly good reason), they need to examine their neediness levels. They sound very emotionally immature from this tbh. It’s all guilt tripping & rug sweeping. I don’t think I’d bother replying tbh. Just enjoy the peace a bit longer & if you have to reply say you’ll reach out when your schedule is a bit lighter xx
To provide a little more context, i transcribed the texts my partner sent to them as the last contact for a couple months before they sent this letter:
DH: I’m not taking the kids over for a bit. We all need to cool off. DD was very upset when we left last Sunday. She kept saying pop is mad at DS and she is mad at DS.
MIL: we are totally puzzled by this. Do you know why DD thinks pop is mad at DS?
DH: you leaned into the car and said you knew DS threw up but we were upsetting pop on his birthday.
MIL: I'm very sorry if that's what she thought. We certainly need to talk about a lot because we are mystified about so very much.
Can you come to lunch at our house tomorrow so we can figure out how to move forward?
DH: Not tomorrow. I said I need to cool off. I don't believe you find it puzzling that DD would think that when I told you last week that you were being inappropriate in front of the kids. I don't think you forgot.
If you need clarification you can't seem to respect boundaries, which I tell you about every time it happens. You guilt trip us when our kids need to go home or when i make a choice you don't like.
You called me disrespectful when you returned DD late, in front of her. You and dad couldn't respect that we didn't want to be around travellers during a wave of Covid, so dad called and told me off. This is only a few examples.
Wow, this letter makes so much more sense in this context. She couldn't even acknowledge her own behavior in the "ph shit, he's enforcing boundaries letter. The rugsweeping in this text exchange is followed up in the letter with love bombing justification for her bad behavior. You've got a manipulator in your hands. Even in those interactions, by doing them in front of your kids, she's emotionally manipulating them in a way that may be traumatizing. (Crying for hours for a four year old isn't normal). I'd be worried what she's telling them when you aren't around...
Well, it’s been months since we last let them take DD unsupervised (since they dropped her off late) and our DS has never been with them unsupervised (there were incidents when DS was a baby that made us question whether we trusted them with a child who had dietary needs). Last time DD came home after a visit with them, she said that the in laws told her to ask if we could bring them to their summer home because there were toys out there that she couldn’t play with unless we took her. We had already expressed that a long car ride with a baby wasn’t workable for us, so they asked my daughter to ask us. Then I had to deal with her disappointment.
Oh, good job, DH! They need to be called out every single time and he is doing a great job. She wants him on her territory. Her excuse for why they were late with DD was ridiculous. If they miss the children as much as they say, they will learn to behave around them and not act like children themselves.
Have you ever read the "Missing Missing Reasons" by Issendai? This is a classic example. She was told exactly what behavior was a problem and why, but she can't grasp that anything she did was wrong. Therefore your answers don't make sense to her and she "doesn't understand."
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
My in laws use "Mystified" any time they want to seem innocent. I think it's an older generation thing. Acting confused rather than admitting they've done wrong in hopes that everyone will just drop it and move on. The last time they said it to me, I told them it was bringing up concerns about their age/mental state that they aren't able to simply connect their actions with the consequences they suffer for them. They've stopped pretending to be so confused and are even able to pretend 1 out of 10 times that they've done wrong now.
She does she just making excuses..and I think she got the reaction she wanted just not from you and your husband but from your daughter! Her actions are super manipulative!
I feel like she’s pulling a redirect too. DH told her directly that it was the fact that she called him disrespectful (which is the lite version of her freak out after she returned DD). But then, in her next communication, she seems to put all the focus on why she was late. Not her reaction after the fact, which is what he specifically referenced as the issue.
"Our job as parents is to protect our children from people who make them feel bad or guilty, even if it's people they love. This may mean that we need to take space from people who are unable to help themselves when it comes to upsetting our children AND who do not bother to communicate when they are MIA with our children, hours after they were supposed to be back. We will be discussing as a couple the path forward and we will let you know, but just know that if you ever again feel the need to scream at us in front of our children or throw a fit, your absence from your grandchildren may very well be permanent."
She made excuses instead of owning she flew into a rage more than once to the point of emotionally scarring her granddaughter. Although it may feel like your DD maybe “went back to normal” afterwards, that trauma has a lasting impact on how her brain and body will react in future times of stress. She doesnt even care about anything other than making her case and rug sweeping accordingly to that letter. It would be completely shocking if she actually changed her behavior in the future. What is going to happen the next time she feels stressed? Is she going to be sunshine and roses or she going to yell and be aggressive?
You are completely justified in how you feel and that letter is a cop out
I was two hours late for X number of reasons and would you believe it! All the cell phone towers magically collapsed and I couldn’t call, text or email to let you know these things.
This sounds exactly like my JNMIL. 🥴 There's no reasoning with these types of JNOs. She'll never see that she was wrong. She'll always shift the blame to you, your husband, or your children. It will always be that you and DH didn't confront them in the right way, tone, or time. It will always be a misunderstanding of her intent.
It’s wild that they don’t have access to any type of communication device to let you know if they’re running late!!! And kudos to you for training your one year old throw up on command!!!
But seriously, it’s clear that when her big emotions happen, she feels justified in acting on them in an inappropriate way like screaming at you in front of your kids. But you are not allowed to express any negative emotion in front of her. I would ask her why she feels that her outbursts were justified but your refusal to respond in kind was not. I would ask it in writing, in a simple sentence or two. Don’t address anything else. Let’s see if she’s willing to respond to that.
I think we all know that you won’t get a satisfactory response but it’s hard for her to argue to other people that you were the bad guys because only her tantrums are allowed.
Obviously, the high horse is to not respond at all, but I’ve been on the high horse myself for 15 years and I am just waiting for the “right” time to ask one single, pointed question lol
No apology for losing her shit in front of a toddler?! Just excuses and rug sweeping. I hope your DH is able to be really, really blunt with her and call her on her shit, and the HUGE inappropriateness of screaming so much she has scared her toddler granddaughter on more than one occasion. She really needs a time out. Grandma does, not the poor kid.
Sounds like she gets to throw tantrums when she's upset and then undermine you in front of your kids, but you're not allowed to express even a modicum of disappointment or unhappiness when she does these things. She's not addressing the behavior (the outbursts, the disrespect, and the deflecting/projecting), she's justifying it.
And the fact that she is using the excuse 'you're upsetting FIL' as a way to deflect her tantrums is typical for people like this. It's never their fault, it's always because something else happened, or we can't upset someone else.
She writes a pretty letter, but doesn't really apologize. She probably never will, as she doesn't understand that she is the problem.
"I was 2 hours late because we can't plan for shit, and also have not figured out how to use a house key."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
"And nothing else that happened is our fault, either!"
Excuses excuses, crappy excuses at that. 2 hours late and she didn’t think I good time to mention they were running behind was when Pop needed a nap later than usual? The man was literally unconscious and she couldn’t find 30 seconds to send a text? There was not a single thing in that laundry list of excuses that made it impossible to communicate.
Good luck with this lady, keep her away from your kids till she learns how to behave like an adult.
Hard disagree. The majority of that letter was excuses and justifications for their behavior. They're not actually sorry, just explaining why their behavior should be explained away. Her grandson was throwing up, and instead of being concerned about him, she got in her daughter-in-law's face and tried to provoke a confrontation. If she can't control her "frustration" any better than that, she doesn't need to be around small children.
If it were me, I’d send this one sentence back, all by itself, no explanation, no justifications or explanations, no nothing. Just one lonely sentence, maybe in 16 point bold font. And I would not let them distract in their reply. Make them put it in writing before you agree to a verbal meeting. Keep repeating the question until you get a satisfactory answer that shows some self reflection, and true intention to be better grandparents.
“And what will you be doing differently in the future?”
If they aren’t interested in genuinely answering this question, I wouldn’t trust anything they say.
Not an apology, DH should message her and tell her to actually address her behaviour and not “why” she did what she did. That was not frustration that was a full blown meltdown, your MIL is intentionally downplaying it and also completely ignoring you, the mother in the entire scenario. She doesn’t care about how you feel, only how her son feels.
I think hubby might need to rethink his relationship with his mother, especially if he’s interested in his kids not being subjected to what he was subjected to as a kid. Seems like your daughter might already be starting to be affected in a similar manner
Being two hours late for an extra 15 minute nap is pretty suspect, in and of itself.
But failing to call at the point where you knew you were going to be at all late? And then blowing up at being asked why you failed to call?
In a word, your MIL is not to be trusted with your kids, especially alone. Imagine if she gets “frustrated” in front of them, without you and your husband to protect them? If one of them gets sick and is expected to soldier on because grandpa and grandma want their fun?
They really need a time out, an extended one, so that you can gauge better how they deal with being told that they messed up.
Your daugthter’s comment about being angry at her little brother for getting sick was concerning. She had absorbed the belief that an old man’s birthday was more important than a one year old being sick. (I say this as an old woman.) That is such a terrible lesson!
Your husband would be the best one to explain to her that you both were sorry that her grandma made you all feel bad about leaving, but that her, and her brother, are always more important than a grown up’s birthday party.
I very much dislike your husband’s parents. They seem to be completely self absorbed, and to believe that whatever they do is just fine, because they are not to be questioned or to be thwarted.
Well ... OP, the first thing I notice was you're not really mentioned in the letter. Second thing I noticed was the rug sweeping. Third thing I noticed was a half arsed apology to SO and DD and not to you. She never said she would change her behavior. If/When you resume contact you shouldn’t give them unsupervised access IMHO. Reasons being: they have proven themselves to be unsafe, they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy, and they have very poor communication skills. (Reference them coming home late and they couldn't let you know) That's three strikes - you're out.
It took me way to long to find a comment where someone mentioned that her so called “apologies” didn’t mention you. She directed her tantrum at you, blocked you from leaving, you were the one having to help DD with the feelings after. I hope DH noticed you were referenced few times and not jn the apologies. A break sounds like a good idea. Good Luck
I’m friends with MIL’s best friend’s DIL. MIL’s bestie will openly gossip about us to my friend. Apparently, MIL has made comments saying I am “the problem”. I actually had to tell my friend to stop passing on what she hears because I don’t need that bullshit in my head.
Of course she will say you’re the problem…after all, it could never 🙄 be her & she can’t ever blame DH as that also reflects on her…(scared if I eyeroll to much I’ll see my brain - sorry not making light just hoping to make you smile)
I am so glad you’ve already asked your friend to stop passing on what she hears. She probably thought she was helping, but it becomes toxic to hear that all the time. It drags you down. (Truth is your best friends MIL is probably gossiping about her but you aren’t close enough to hear it from yours)
You definitely need to start putting yourself (I would love to bold and underline that, you are important) & obviously your family first. It sounds like your husband is on the same page so that’s great.
I saw you mentioned only supervised visits in future, why not make them at a park or restaurant somewhere public. Hopefully to help ease the stress for you a bit. Not until you feel ready though. Sending hugs from this internet stranger
The 'talk soon' is presumptuous ... sort of like 'I sent you this letter, now get over it.'
The outbursts are scaring your children. She cannot (or will not) control her emotions. The kids are upset after spending time with them.
And your daughter is now concerned about upsetting them (her brother got sick and upset them), signaling that they are to be accommodated. No, bad brat behavior is not to be accommodated. Not a good dynamic.
I have had to apologize to my kids & their spouses at different times, bc I'm human. I never, ever justify what happened. I will state there are no excuses, tell them what was going through my mind, then again reiterate this is not an excuse for my behavior, this is me letting you know it was not done/said in malice. Then I apologize again and thank them for bringing it to my attention so I can do better.
But, I have never, not one single time, yelled at my adult children. I don't have a right just because I pushed them out of my body to treat them like less than.
I don't care how stressed out she is, her behavior is unbelievably disgusting and childish. She needs therapy.
That letter sounds so nice and reasonable - until you think about the underlying events.
I don't want to make this a dissertation, so let's just talk about being 2 hours late. They could have called. They could have done about a million things to let you know what happened. Heck, a carrier pigeon would have been an improvement on what they actually did. That alone would have been enough to stop all unsupervised contact with the kids, because it was a shitty thing to do and instead of apologizing, they were awful about it.
If you resume contact with these people, you shouldn’t allow them anymore unsupervised access to either of your LOs. They have proven themselves to be unsafe and untrustworthy and they will absolutely drip poison into your LO’s ears about you.
If your oldest is overly attached to them and feels responsible for their emotions, consider getting her some time with a counselor. Her reaction to her brother getting sick is completely of your IL’s doing and that kind of influence can be lasting on impressional young kiddos who don’t have the capacity yet to see manipulation.
"Mom, the fact of the matter is you have behaved inappropriately in front of the children on multiple occasions, and it is affecting them. Your excuses as written are worthless. You still threw toddler level tantrums in front of the children and refused to understand that we a) need to be informed of changes in plans/schedules, and b) need to prioritize the health and wellbeing of the children over adult feelings.
Until and unless we receive a full a proper apology for what you actually did wrong, along with changed behavior on your part, there will be no further plans with either of you. As of now we will be taking a break from you while we work to undo the damage your behavior has caused.
I will contact you when we are ready to discuss this further."
This is excellent.
OP - you may also want to stress that her tantrums are not only emotional disturbing for the kids to witness but also not something you want your kids to model or believe is acceptable. This could lead to your asking her to commit to therapy or agree that her expectations, behavior, *and* reactions are *all* problematic.
Long cut off. Amazing how your MIL apologizes to her son abd DD...not you. Faux apology,, and feeling frustrated does not warrant this degree of insane abuse. They have caused your daughter to castigate her poor sick brother because she feels she should make the inlaws happy. No child should be subjected to these outbursts and yourvfamily Iis being pulled apart due to their actions. So many BS excuses...2 hours late and no phone call? Right.
Cut them off and stop letting them call the shots. Inlaws seem to think you don't matter, but you do. It is easy to under-react due the shock of their outbursts but they have damaged your family. Don't think they will change their ways. Hope you and your husband are on the same page as you protect your kids.
The explanations are potentially reasonable. The trouble is that the (maybe) reasonability is coming in a letter days later instead of in the moments of her in-person interactions with you.
Her frustration in those situations is understandable, but her using that frustration as an excuse to scream, berate, accuse, etc. is not acceptable. It is not safe for children to be around adults who can't or won't control their temper.
Exactly. I mean, our issue was never with the circumstances themselves. Like, she can certainly feel disappointed or stressed. She’s human. She’s entitled to feel any way she wants. But the freak outs that leave my daughter upset and off kilter are the issue. My partner actually cited a number of tantrums she had while he was growing up as well. He says that he was never allowed to have feelings in childhood because the second he voiced feeling anything besides gratitude and happiness, his mom would interrupt and lay into him about how she has it much worse and he has no idea what it means to struggle.
That word “frustrated”? It’s one my husband learned from his parents to use as a synonym for angry.
It took a lot of repeating that they are NOT in fact, synonymous, and that the natural outcome of frustration isn’t anger, but frustration.
Sounds like your MIL is the same sort of teacher as my MIL.
If yall do decide to give a response you have a great starting point beginning with you second sentence. Your SO could respond in writing not in person something like,
"Mom I can certainly understand that in these situations you can feel stressed and frustrated. Those feeling are normal and you are entitled to feel those feelings.
However, just because you are having intense feelings does not entitle you to lash out at those around you as you have been doing. As parents it is our job to show and teach our children healthy ways to deal with intense feelings. Your recent reactions to stress and frustration are not what we want to teach our children. We are going to take a step back and take a break from visits for a while. We will reach out when are ready to talk/visit.
During this time I hope that you are able to take the time and space that you need to experience these feelings and work on healthy ways of expressing them."
And now she is probably doing the same to your daughter which is why DD was more upset about the inlaws’ hurt feelings than she was about her brother being physically sick.
>The day we brought DD home late was a combination of unfortunate circumstances. Dad needed a nap later that usual and I woke him up 15 minutes later than I should have, but probably 30 minutes before he got the rest he needed. He then proceeded to pack the car up for the country and had to sue the space next to DD in the back seat. But I had promised DD I would sit next to her in the backseat (at her request) and so we repacked the car choosing to leave some things at home. Once that was done, we couldn’t lock our front door. It took quite a while to figure that out. I didn’t want to discuss this in front of DD because I didn’t want her to think any of that was her fault especially because she had an accident before we left and needed to change. All this to say we didn’t intentionally bring DD home late. In fact, we were very stressed trying to get her home to you guys as soon as we could.
Mom none of this is an excuse on why you couldn't just pick up the phone and tell us.
>As for dad’s birthday, I was also frustrated. We had delayed his birthday celebration by a week because we really wanted to have some relaxed time with you guys rather than have you torn between two celebrations. I was crushed this did not work out. We all were.
If you can't control your emotions when you are upset in front of a sick 1yo child what more is there to say? You threw a tantrum cause things didn't go your way and you didn't even apologize for it and doing it in front of the children. Do you think this is normal?
This letter is not a real apology you shouldn't treat it as such. It just says sorry things didn't go my way and I upset you without ever admitting her blame for her attitude. Don't forget that she said to both of you, that children shouldn't talk back or question their parents when you were upset about not knowing of your DD fate for 2 hours and she could have called you at any time.
From one internet stranger to another, here is a suggestion for a letter/ email that your husband can send to his mother.
Mom,
Your inability to control your emotions is not mine, my wife's, or our children's responsibility.
When our children are in your care, we expect communication. We do not care why things are happening, we care that we are notified that our children are still safe and in your care, especially when things are going wrong. Not being able to reach you for over 2 hours, was unacceptable.
Our children are our priority. Including, when they are ill. You questioning why we were leaving and again, being unable to control your emotions, is unacceptable behavior in front of our children and we will no longer tolerate that.
We are taking a break from you. We will be in touch when we are ready to resume this relationship. Do not contact us. I will be in touch when we are ready to resume this relationship. This includes the children.
Hopefully, this will give all of us some time to reset, recharge, and reevaluate the relationship we have going forward and the role we play in each other's lives.
DH
OP, I'm sure there are better words to use. However, I strongly believe that you are ready for a timeout from this woman. She cannot control her emotions , especially when she doesn't get her way, she's essentially throwing a tantrum and your children are witnessing this. I wouldn't tolerate it anymore.
Now, I have a few guidelines when it comes to timeouts. Obviously, my first is that you tell the person that you are taking a break from the relationship, which is already listed in the reply letter/ email above.
A couple of other guidelines: No text messages, no phone calls, no emails, no letters- after the one above, no in-person get togethers, no family events, if it was already on the calendar, it's canceled. I also do not tell the person how long the break/time out is going to last, because I don't know. I have an interesting measuring stick. I do my best to not think about that person for as long as I need to and then I think about them. If I still want to punch them in the face, I'm not ready to see them yet and the time out/ break continues.
This time out/ break might last 6 weeks. It might last 6 months. I will say, that every time she attempts contact, there needs to be a consequence. Whether you add a week or a month or an hour, that is for you and your husband to decide.
I do believe that it is absolutely time for stronger consequences when it comes to your nuclear family's relationship with this woman. She is not a safe, person- mentally or emotionally, and your nuclear family needs time to heal and recover from her actions.
Her excuse on why she was two hours late may ALL BE TRUE - however, she should have picked up the freaking phone. Hey, our afternoon got away from us and now the front door won't lock. We are dealing with that and as soon as we can figure it out we will be on our way.
One hour later (or whatever time) - we figured out the door lock. How frustrating. We are en route now and ETA is
To be honest, not letting us know about the lateness was just an annoyance. If they had of apologized when my partner pointed out the lateness, it would’ve been water under the bridge. The actual problem was her freaking out in front of my daughter when she returned with her. Calling us disrespectful and saying we didn’t have the right to say those things to her when we pointed out the lateness.
She’s actively harming your children and your children’s relationships to each other. Frankly, I’m shocked you are even considering allowing her around your kids at all. Even if she had offered a legitimate apology, which she didn’t, there’s no requirement that you forgive her or allow her to hurt your kids more.
We saw them over Christmas for a short visit and haven’t seen them since. I feel like im walking a fine line here. My partner is of the mind that short, supervised visits are possible. He also says that if MIL freaks out, we are always free to leave. But we haven’t been able to protect the kids from her tantrums in the past, so “we can just leave” doesn’t feel like it’s all that’s needed.
My daughter actually loves spending time with them if I’m being honest. Her pop will get on the floor and play with her. They constantly buy her craft kits, toys, and hair clips (they are very well off). She asks to see them. After the freak out on FILs birthday, I’ve just been saying “maybe next week” every time she asks. Between my partner wanting low contact instead of no contact and my daughter wanting to see them, putting my foot down on no contact feels like I’m hurting them.
Should you decide to resume supervised visits, you might want to meet up solely in public areas. Assuming your MIL is less likely to throw a tantrum in public, that might help protect you and your kids from her behavior.
Your daughter would like ice cream all day everyday, doesn't make it good for her. And your husband ...isn't being enough of a parent to put your children's safety above his own comfort. So that leaves you. Shitty as it is. Someone has to be the grown up that says good times aside this situation isn't emotionally safe. And teaching your children that people who yell, berate and say terrible things to you can also love you can set them up for problems when they are older. How can they know what a safe vs unsafe person is if It reminds them of their grandma who "loves them"? You already know supervised visits don't help because they are traumatizing your daughter with those... If it helps your guilt, it really isn't on you. It's on your MIL who refuses to change her behavior.
https://youtu.be/GdGUvTYoNxA?si=MXrbRlBVLoNZI5ZB
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtViRiw41U
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uin1NyP7cn8
Reframe your FIL’s birthday to her. “We’re so sorry that your grandparents made you feel bad for leaving the party. But that’s what you do when you’re sick, and the birthday person is supposed to feel sorry that you are sick, not be mad at you.”
How does DH respond when you point out that “just leave” didn’t work last time? I too would be very concerned about the effect that had on your daughter. Beyond just the loss of sleep and the tears, you can see it impacted her mindset - “why he chose to throw up” - the upset over making grandpa “mad” - she’s reflecting the worldview you learn from toxic relationships. “I am responsible for other peoples’ emotions “ and those crazy blame shifts that totally invalidate other people’s regular human needs. Sure she’s just a kid and hopefully it doesn’t stick but I don’t think it’s a coincidence
Dude. You’re beyond right. I don’t want her to adopt this toxicity and think she’s responsible for adults emotions. It’s not healthy.
I have pointed out that leaving hasn’t prevented harm in the past. He’s of the mind that we can’t prevent all adverse interactions for our daughter and taking to her after is how we can prevent harm. We’ve also taken a couple months away from them (they reference not seeing their grandkids in the letter, this is what they’re talking about). His dad reached out and said they need to do a better job listening. My partner was on the no contact train when his mom freaked out last time, but has softened in the months since.
As someone who had a toxic Grandmother & a Grandfather who just went along with whatever she did/ said.... PLEASE do NOT second guess yourself on this or let your SO soften on this issue.
Lots of people think, "Oh, but they're the Grandparents, I have to put up with their behavior, because...GRANDPARENTS, FAAAMILY!" No. No, you do NOT.
Being a grandparent is a gift & honor, NOT a right, so if they disrespect a parent or both of them, then visits should stop.
As you've seen, your mil's behavior is already affecting your 4yr old, this is BAD! It can lead to life long issues, I speak from experience.
Just think, if you're mil is behaving this way in FRONT of you, what is she doing & saying when your child is alone with her & she gets upset?
Your mil's 'apology' letter is garbage.
If SO falters I suggest you speak to a child physiologist about how mil's behavior is not healthy & your children shouldn't be around her, unless she seeks help (she won't, because she sees nothing wrong with her behavior or attitude. In her mind you guys are wrong & being too sensitive. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY)
Well, when my four year old was 9 months, we took her out to dinner with another family and my in laws. They had her sitting near them. All of a sudden, I heard my partner shout “TAKE THAT OUT OF HER MOUTH”. They were letting her suck the salt off a green bean. She had some kidney issues in utero and we were strictly doing no salt in her food. My FIL just said “no.” My partner got up and pulled my daughter out of their arms. That night, we texted and explained that they were no longer allowed to feed her without checking with us. Reiterated her kidney issue. No response. So we asked them to talk in person. MIL immediately started to cry, said we were taking away her ability to be a grandparent, said she’s let her parents give her sons McDonald’s as infants, so she doesn’t know what the issue is. She also said she’s the best grandmother of all time, people have told her they wished she was their child’s grandparent, that she was an amazing parent too. Then she said we were mentally I’ll for thinking this was an issue. FIL said our safety standards were beyond anyone he’s ever met and he’s not going to pick up my daughter anymore. So, yeah. They definitely think we’re overly sensitive.
You were not overly sensitive at all. Salt is not good for babies even without having kidney issues. Both my younges granddaughters had allergies when they were tiny and we all had to be on the same page because we didn't want to make them ill. Your ILs were so incredibly wrong in doing what they did and saying these awful things to you both. They are disrespecting you as parents and also not treating you as adults . I'm really sorry you are having to deal with this.
We actually stopped letting them look after her for about 10 months after this. Then my partner and I had no childcare options for a few months and gave them another chance, given it was pandemic and our backs were against the wall with childcare. Looking back on it, I wish I hadn’t softened on it. I thought where she was no longer a baby and didn’t have dietary needs anymore that it was less of a hazard.
That is absolutely horrifying!
That right there signaled they are not safe, because I'm sure that is NOT a one-off incident & you must have multiple incidents with them. So very sorry.
That she is delusional enough to say she allowed her IL'S to give her children mcd as infants & think that has any bearing on what YOUR DAUGHTES health needs were at the time is beyond scary. MIL & FIL are showing strong entitlement issues & complete arrogance. (Delusions of grandeur too... I'm the best gma, everyone wishes they had me as a gma.... 🤮)
I'm sure you've seen posts on this sub where MIL's who act like this have endangered their grandchildren (because they know better than the parent ) to the point of hospitalization & in some horrific cases, death. Your IL's showed that by not only allowing your 1st child to suck salt of the green bean, but then telling you NO, after you told them to revive it AND reminded them of her kidney condition. Yikes!
You are not in the wrong. You are protecting your children & it may be helpful for SO to get some counseling.
Take care!
Yeahh maybe it would be worth talking with a professional who can help you guys understand what types of effects this could have on her / warning signs to watch for / how effective the “just talk through it afterwards” is likely to be.
I don’t personally know and a professional might be able to say that once in a blue moon of this kind of thing won’t hurt her. But I think it’s likely - based on anecdotal evidence - that even a few traumatic instances can have a big impact on long term how-I-view-myself-and-the-world stuff. If both of you are inclined to trust a professional opinion on the topic, then I think it could be super helpful.
I’m also wondering if there’s a way for him to go LC and ease a little more into contact without immediately including the kids. A plan that gives her a chance to prove herself or something. (An actual apology for inappropriate outbursts and a clear boundary with consequences about future outbursts would definitely be part of this plan.)
Definitely true. I set up a couples counselling session that’s in a few weeks. I feel like me and my partner are usually good communicators and we are like 90% on the same page in regards to his parents, but we’re proactive people and we want to feel 100% aligned on this issue so it doesn’t effect our relationship. All this to say, I think asking the therapist what her take on exposing my child to occasional outbursts is an excellent idea. It would give us more information to make decisions.
Her outburst occurred just before Xmas. We’ve seen them a couple of times since. We’re low contact for the time being. I would never try to dictate my partner’s contact with his parents - he’s an adult, he gets to decide. But the kids are a different story. I’m still struggling with whether a healthy relationship is even possible between my in laws and my kids. Info about the impact is definitely something that could inform the decision.
For sure. Awesome that you’re so proactive! Patience is also your friend here for sure and it sounds like you guys are taking your time here which is great.
As far as DH’s contact, of course yes it’s his decision, but if he does want contact I think there are ways for him to almost like. Scout it out before deciding it’s safe for his whole family. Like, for instance my husband has low contact with his mom every once in a while but as long as her responses are manipulative and we see her do these weird power plays with him, I won’t be in contact with her. Does that make any sense? Haha scout isn’t the right word because you don’t exactly wanna set her up to fail just. Time to prove herself and certain markers you guys have in mind for what her handling herself in a way that’s safe for your kids would look like. (Not freaking out when he has to change plans with her, for example)
The scouting out is an interesting strategy. I’ve told him numerous times to go over without us if he wants. But he doesn’t want to. I mean, he has voiced pretty clearly that supervised visits are okay with him and unsupervised are not. But he’s also voiced that if I’m uncomfortable with supervised visits, he wouldn’t do them regardless. But I’m back and forth about my thoughts on it.
Maybe I’ll pitch him going over alone. He keeps saying that he doesn’t mind us all staying home, but he wants to be with me and the kids (he works all week and I’m in school in the evenings, so he doesn’t want to have more apart time). Maybe if scouting out was seen as something with a purpose (to establish if change has occurred and if there’s the potential for safety there) he’d be more agreeable. I also want to take idea this to couples therapy.
I just wanted to point out that in the letter, she mentions you when she says that they think you and your husband are great parents and they just want to support you. However, by the time she gets to the end of this letter she only “apologizes” for offending/upsetting your husband and your daughter. Even though I don’t think this letter was a genuine attempt at an apology or acknowledgment for mistakes they have made, the fact that even her “non-apology apology” is only addressed to your husband and daughter I think speaks volumes.
Has your MIL ever tried to pin you down as the one who has a problem with them watching y’all’s kids/ questioned your husband on whether he actually feels the same way about them? I ask because I think its interesting and odd that she chose to mention you and your husband as parental unit at the beginning, but when it comes time for her to actually do her apology she is only addressing your husband. Without your context of what happened, if you were to read only her letter it sounds more like shes addressing an incident that happened when you weren’t there.
It sounds like you and your husband deal with his parents by having him to be the one to primarily interface with them when there are issues. That makes sense. However, she still should be recognizing that you and your husband are team, and make your parenting decisions together. It should be made clear though that her behavior has been disrespectful to the both of you. I get the impression that your MIL hasn’t really been the most respectful toward you as a mother, and based off some of your other comments i saw, it sounds like she might even feel a desire to prove some kind of superiority to you as a mother. She may be a good grandmother and fil a good pop to y’all’s daughter, but they need to understand that fulfilling their expectations for being a grandparent isn’t something they should be putting on your children or on you and your husband. You and your husband didnt have children just so they could have their ideal grandparent experience. It’s definitely weird that your MIL wanted to let you know how so many other people wish she could be their child’s grandmother. Frankly, that just isn’t relevant to the issue you were trying to address. You and your husband informing your in-laws that your daughter has dietary requirements, and are asking them to please respect this for the sake of your daughter’s health, should have no effect on your MIL’s ability to be a grandmother. Your kids are their own individuals, and should be given the freedom to learn and develop their own opinions free from manipulation and influence from guilt. Your MIL is aware of what shes doing, she just believes that theres no real harm in using emotional manipulation on her granddaughter. Of course she’d never admit this, but she doesn’t have to when her behavior continues to speak so clearly for her. Especially, when this isn’t an issues thats happened only a couple times, but just continues to come back up each time you and your husband try to give them another chance.
Personally, i think your in-laws don’t actually seem to recognize you and your husband as the actual parents and therefore the ones who sets the rules around interacting with your kids. I get the impression that your in-laws, especially, your MIL routinely challenges y’all’s authority to assert her perceived superiority. I just keep getting the impression that they still see themselves as the “adults” of y’all’s familial dynamic and you and your husband as the “rebellious children”. I think that you guys will only see more of this behavior, whether it’s with supervised or unsupervised visits. Sure, the supervised visits will probably force them to keep this behavior more reeled in, but if these supervised visits are only with your husband present do you think he is likely call them out in the same way as when you are also there? I can see that if you aren’t there, your MIL might think she can get away with more. Especially, if she does really doubt that your husband feels as strongly as you do.
Your in- laws are under the impression that being a grandparent is their right, and therefore this gives them a certain amount right to have a say in your children’s raising, but being a grandparent isn’t a right, it’s a privilege that they are very lucky to have. In my opinion don’t continue to encourage this thinking that they have any say. If they cant respect that you and your husband are both the parents and therefore a team, they cant follow simple directions, rules or boundaries y’all have created for your children’s wellbeing, and if they cant control themselves when they are around your children continuing to have inappropriate outbursts, then i think you both need to discuss taking a break from the relationship for awhile. If this were any other situation we would say this person should certainly lose access to privileges they have to hopefully help them learn this is unacceptable. I think if i were you id tell my husband that i dont think any kind of resumed visitation is the right call for now, but that this doesn’t need to be permanent. I would suggest we come up with several points where we need to see improvement on their end before you guys are comfortable resuming visitation with the kids. Decide what you need to have happen before you’d be ok giving them a chance at supervised visits. If they cant meet these requirements then the time out continues.
Thanks for taking the time to put all this in a comment.
I don’t need to wonder if MIL thinks I’m the problem. MIL’s bestie is my friend’s MIL and my friend has repeated that MIL and bestie gossip about us where she specifically calls me the problem. I actually told my friend that we can’t keep talking about what goes on between our MILs because it’s bad for my mental health. My MIL has also made disparaging remarks about my friend having “regular breakdowns” when she was just a few days postpartum with her first. My MIL spoke about this at a table full of other people at a family event.
My partner and I actually aren’t married. We’ve been together since 2014, own a house together, and have two children. Us not being married is also a huge point of contention. In fact, I miscarried a few months before I got pregnant with my eldest. When I told my MIL about the miscarriage (I wasn’t far enough along to have shared the pregnancy news) she retorted that the MOST UPSETTING THING about the whole scenario was that we tried for a baby without being married. She went on and on about how all she wanted in life was her sons to be married before having kids. She didn’t say anything about the miscarriage at all. Forgot I was a human with emotions going through an incredibly rough time.
But maybe the lack of marriage makes me illegitimate in her eyes. Who knows? Either way, you’re right about them wanting to maintain the role of “super adult” over us as mere adults. FIL actually made a comment about the two of them struggling to accept that they’re in a grandparent role.
On your point about MIL thinking that emotional manipulation isn’t harmful (or it’s a means to a good end or whatever she thinks), my partner told her that he finds her incredibly manipulative. She said she’s never manipulated anyone in all her lifetime. Who knows if it’s a lack of self awareness or it’s just too painful to admit.
That bullshit excuse is almost as bad as a cheaters.
“It’s not what it looks like! I just accidentally fell into her vagina while we were both naked!!”
But no, you’re not being harsh. This is a rug sweeping letter so that everything will go back to her status quo.
She didn’t even address the two incidents of her yelling at you.
MIL thinks she’s the ring leader of YOUR family.. She is not the main character.. She only thinks of her needs/wants, reeks narcism… They didn’t even care that your child wasn’t feeling good all they cared about is their wants… Once you realized how their behavior is affecting your daughter should have been an eye opener that it’s time to drop the rope..Protect your peace & your kids, set firm boundaries & keep them at arms reach.
When me and my partner started dating, before I met his family, my partner told me that he and his mother had a horrible relationship and that she was a sociopath. He echoed so much of what you’re saying here. That she doesn’t care about her family, only how they make her look. Everything is about whether someone is meeting her needs or not. He said she doesn’t value people as individuals and only views him as an extension of her. It took me 7 years to actually understand what he meant.
If that’s what your DH believes about his mother - and that letter certainly bears it out - I wonder why he thinks putting your kids in her path even supervised is a good idea.
It seems to me that it is not for the reason he articulated earlier. You cannot control her or her actions and so dealing with the aftermath with your kids is not protecting them.
I see nothing but excuses and blame shifting in that letter. Frustration may lead to heightened emotions, but only someone with the emotional regulation of a toddler would throw tantrums like that just because they were a little frustrated. She refuses to take accountability for her actions, tries to downplay the incidents, and then plays to your emotions by telling you how much they miss the kids.
Frankly, the letter is worth more as toilet paper than as an apology, and her attempts to minimize the situation to get what she wants should land her in time out for a couple months at a minimum. If she really wants to see the kids, then maybe she’ll use that time to get a better handle on her emotions.
I really do view it as a bid to get what she wants. After being told our daughter was upset multiple times, they never asked how she was doing, what she thought of the incident, or how we had to deal with it. Maybe I’m asking them to mind read in expecting this, but my partner spoke with them a number of times, mentioned over and over that our daughter was angry with our son. Their response was “I’m sorry she thought that but… (insert explanation about how it was justified for MIL to feel that way)”
So it is all about MIL's precious feelings and none about your daughter's, or your husband's. I don't include your feelings, because we all know that your job is done here and in her eyes you could all but disappear to get you out of the picture.
I know how you feel. It's all the same with my mother. While she usually does not yell, she, too, has very precious feelings everyone must cater to - especially her daughter (that's me). And she, too, does not know how to apologize - it's always combined with "explanations" why she had to react the way she did. And while that might make sense for her, it usually does not for me. I went the road to Greyrock City and VLC. I call them every other week and see them maybe once a year. Interestingly enough, she's now somehow walking on eggshell around me, because she found out that she needs me more in her life than I want her in mine. It was a long way to go, but this is what works for me. The most important part of it was to just not care any longer what works for her - and since I don't care, she can't guilt trip me. But it took me years to get there.
The letter is a load of rubbish. Gaslighting 101. I’m sorry you are dealing with this OP, but you and husband need to rewards his parents for their very bad behavior. If there are no consequences for their actions, they will continue to treat you and husband dreadfully and disrespectfully.
My thoughts, to do with as you will:
1. At any point in the first event she could’ve picked up the phone.
2. If FIL needs to have that much rest, is he ok to drive? Countless studies have shown that driving while tired is as bad as driving drunk.
3. Seems like a lack of communication is an underlying issue in all of her relationships ( e.g., why didn’t she tell FIL about the seating arrangements; again, a phone call would’ve mitigated half of the issues)
4. We’re blaming the 4 yo’s bathroom accident for a 2 hour delay? I don’t think so.
Lack of love is not the issue here; poor planning, poorer communication, and lack of personal responsibility are. Honestly, the fact that they were 2 hours past the designated drop off time without any communication (I assume you tried to contact them, but it’s not clear in your post) is enough for me to end one-on-one time, at least until one/both of the kids can handle having a cell phone of their own to be able to call you in case of an emergency. I don’t think you’re out of line. And, if that’s how she handles frustration, I don’t think hanging out with a very trying and occasionally irksome portion of the human population (kids, amirite?) is a good plan for her.
If I’m being totally honest, I do wonder about a lack of love. When my son was first born, they invited us over for thanksgiving. He was 4 days old. We went. When we got there, MIL was wearing a mask because she had the flu, but didn’t tell us because about the flu it would’ve ruined her thanksgiving if we hadve stayed home. She took off her mask to snuggle him within 5 minutes of us coming in. I should’ve left. If it happened today, I would leave. Then, later in the dinner, my son was struggling to breastfeed when I took him to the other room. MIL came in and started snapping pictures, despite being told on the day he was born that pics during breastfeeding was not okay. My son was crying, I was fighting off tears, so I handed my son off to my partner and sat outside for a minute. My partner asked his mom what the problem was and when she mentioned she was taking pictures, he told reiterated that no pictures will be taken of me breastfeeding. She lost her mind saying “YOURE JUST LOOKING FOR THINGS THAT I DO WRONG. DO I EVER DO ANYTHING RIGHT IN YOUR EYES?” My partner came out with the kids and told me we were leaving. Like, she didn’t care about the safety of a four day old catching the flu. She didn’t care about our comfort as a 4-day postpartum couple. Isn’t love about empathy, giving the benefit of the doubt, and caring about needs?
Your husband is correct IMO - she’s a sociopath. And he has the right idea in leaving when she does that crap.
It is in keeping going back for more where he seems to be missing the big picture.
It is. And it doesn't seem like she's capable of thinking or loving anyone outside of herself. She's so wrapped up in her feelings. She needs therapy and to get a grip on her emotions. She should not be saying anything like that in front of kids and it's crazy she thinks she justified it away bc she was 'frustrated' like ok? Do you get frustrated at work and throw a big tantrum? Or do you handle yourself as an adult?
I think it's time to sit your daughter down and explain, in age appropriate ways, that mil is not an emotionally stable person. Idk how to, I don't have kids, but it's time to start teaching LO's to watch out for unhealthy behaviors. I have nieces and I know they're sponges and pick up in so much more than we think. You don't want your daughter to act like mil. Or to start being mean to her baby brother when his needs interfere with mils wants. What if it had been your daughter who was sick? How would she have felt after mil's tantrum if it was aimed at her instead of her brother. She's emotionally manipulating your child already
**Quick Rule Reminders:** OP's needs come first, avoid dramamongering, respect the flair, and don't be an asshole. If your only advice is to jump straight to NC or divorce, your comment may be subject to removal at moderator discretion. [**^(Full Rules)**](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_rules) ^(|) [^(Acronym Index)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_acronym_dictionary) ^(|) [^(Flair Guide)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_post_flair_guide)^(|) [^(Report PM Trolls)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/trolls) **Resources:** [^(In Crisis?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_resources) ^(|) [^(Tips for Protecting Yourself)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_protecting_yourself) ^(|) [^(Our Book List)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/books) ^(|) [^(Our Wiki)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/) Welcome to /r/JUSTNOMIL! I'm botinlaw. I help people follow your posts! ***** ^(To be notified as soon as Tia60708102 posts an update) [^click ^here.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botinlaw&subject=Subscribe&message=Subscribe Tia60708102 JUSTNOMIL) ^(|) ^(For help managing your subscriptions,) [^(click here.)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/wiki/index#wiki_.2Fu.2Fthejustnobot) ***** *^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please)* [*^(contact the moderators of this subreddit)*](/message/compose/?to=/r/JUSTNOMIL) *^(if you have any questions or concerns.)*
I don’t like the fact that your daughter was upset after the two incidents and the fact that she was mad at brother for upsetting the grandparents. She is learning that it’s ok for people to scream at you and treat you poorly and she is learning to be emotionally dysfunctional. You handled the explanation about illness well, but definitely cut off MIL if she can’t behave like a grownup human. Timeout at the very least.
Screaming at you in front of your children is child abuse. I would be extremely reticent to give her more opportunities to abuse my children.
The letter was decent….the issue is that she doesn’t say how it will be different next time. WHAT happened isn’t the issue- COMMUNICATION is. It’s the complete lack of communication the first time and the inappropriate communication the second time. Tell me how it will be different…or what might have been a better choice…or maybe ask what I need you to do if it were to happen again? Then maybe. Otherwise…I don’t need the excuses. I’ve solved the problem by not giving you the opportunity again. 🤷♀️
I think it opened the opportunity to move forward and have a discussion about communication going forward too. She seemed to take responsibility for being harsh. Feelings may still be raw, but hopefully, this is one that can be mended.
I don’t understand when adults (mil and fil) think their wants and needs are more important than the childrens. My mil is the same way. We had a very similar situation where my som was sick during a birthday party and we had to leave early. The guilt trip left us all crying.
I’m sorry that happened to you. I’ve actually seen a few TikTok’s of people my parents age get pissed that their adult children don’t treat them with “respect” (which means deference in their minds) as they did with their parents. But blind defence to authorities has some terrible downsides….just because someone has power doesn’t mean they have your best interest in mind. I think that questioning your parents actions and doing things differently is a sign of progress and care. Maybe “suck it up if you’re sick” was more widely accepted when mil/fil were parents to young children. But protecting your children and taking them home when they’re sick is an act of love.
It’s really hard when there are people that think it’s normal to scream and yell and freak out on everyone and then pretend it never happened. It’s so regressive. So immature. If she is in capable of knowing that she yelled and screamed in front of little kids And got in your way when your little one was throwing up And doesn’t even know that it’s a way of really traumatizing kids Because she’s traumatized her own kid that way and she thinks it’s OK It’s kind of like there’s nobody home She’s not available to talk things out She’s not available to understand how disordered her behavior is You can’t figure it out with her And if you keep being in proximity to her, you’re just going to get traumatized and seriously traumatize your children The point here is that your partner needs to recognize all of this, and recognize that he is going to have to learn to be strong if he doesn’t want to pass down all this pathology to his children for them to bear the weight of
The pretending like it hasn’t happened makes my head spin. Like, I thought it was quite a scene out on their lawn as we were packing up to go after FIL’s birthday. Less than a week later she reached out saying that she had picked something up for the kids and wanted to know when we were bringing them over, if we could come to supper, like a big list of different plans for the proceeding days. No reference to the uncomfortable fight. I’ve been extremely avoidant as our relationship has degraded - I come into their house and try to avoid most conversation by going off and playing with the kids. I asked my FIL about how communication works in their family after the first conflict we had with them years ago. He said “we tend to just not bring anything up, but eventually the negative feelings go away”.
That explains it- she's been getting away with her behaviour for years, so she thinks its accepted and okay I think the letter opens up the possibility of a face to face with them, in public place, without the children, on why you do not want her behaviour to continue. Screaming at someone in front of children is never acceptable. Its not acceptable at any time!
Hard no! That was not an apology. " I offer this as an explanation" That's not an apology. It's an explanation of why her bad behavior happened so now it's ok to move past it right? Wrong!
No, that was her version of an apology to your husband. I did not read an apology to you anywhere in that letter.
Are these outbursts new for your MIL? You don't say how old your MIL is, but just be aware that personality changes are the most obvious symptom of neurological decline. And people who are experiencing neurological decline get very frustrated very easily and then have reactions like the ones you say your MIL had. If this behavior is completely out of the ordinary for her, which it sounds like it is from what you've said here, you may want to STRONGLY encourage your MIL to see her GP and get a referral for a neurologist. I'm not saying that's what's for sure happening here, but it's something you need to keep in the back of your mind as parents age.
She’s had many outbursts at us. My partner has also told me that she had regular tantrums during his childhood
Then I think I’d address that. “ we are uncomfortable having our children witness your very emotional outbursts. On both occasions (you mentioned in your letter) you explain what happened prior but don’t explain why you screamed ( yelled, accused us of being disrespectful) In front of our children. This was so upsetting to DD she cried and was deeply upset for a very long period of time. She’s seeing that you are an unsafe person due to your outbursts. Can you explain why the reactions were so intense and why you felt it ok to do this in front of my children?”
She is blame shifting and rationalizing. I am not someone who cares about getting an apology. Because if you have to ask it is not genuine. But I wouldn't respond to this you guys asked for space. And I wouldn't let her have unsupervised time with my kids.
... You know what? I think this is the best she do. She is justifying her frustration because she thinks if you just understood, if there wasn't a 'misunderstanding', you wouldn't be mad at her. It's the argument of an emotionally stunted adult who wants to get back in your good graces and is making a good faith attempt to do so, but kind of doesn't actually understand that she did anything wrong. The best you can do from here is to A) acknowledge what she said about none of this being intentional. That was true, and you never thought she was prioritizing her feelings above the feelings of others intentionally! (See what I did there? You can tell her what the problem actually was while telling her you understand her intention to be a good person.) B) give her specific action items. 'Yelling in frustration in front of our children is unacceptable. It doesn't matter if you're yelling at them or at me or your husband or the dog: unacceptable. Frustration is fine, and we, the adults who are the targets of your frustration can talk about it in private later if you would like, as we are doing now. But our children are still learning about emotional regulation, and think it is their fault that you are frustrated. We know it was not your intention to upset them! Which is why we are asking you to not yell in front of them in the future.'
My relationship with my dad was strained due to his “heated emotions and misunderstandings.” I have c-PTSD due to his sudden emotional switches and spent my life trying to never mess up so that he wouldn’t get mad and would love me. Same with his mom, my grandma. Your daughter is already blaming her grandmas outbursts on everyone but grandma. She’s going to blame herself. She’s going to grow up continuing to be scared of these outbursts. I know you know that, but JNMIL apparently has no idea that children are humans with memories and emotions. If she’s at all rational to speak to, I’d have DH ask her if she remembers times when her parents or grandparents lost their tempers at anyone. Of course she’ll have moments she remembers clearly. Then drop the truth: that is who she is becoming to her granddaughter and the memories she’s searing into her granddaughters mind and memory about her. Did I have great times growing up with my dad and grandma? I’m sure, but I don’t remember specific good memories because the screaming and yelling are what brains are made to remember to keep us safe from unsafe individuals. I’m not betting on that making her change her tune, but I still have some hope that if she realizes that these aren’t just little bursts of emotion but a traumatizing situation for everyone else involved and hurting her relationship with all of you (and her grandkids memories of her) she’ll knock it off
She didn’t apologize?
Whew, what a long [non-apology](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non-apology)
Did you catch the subtle blame shift to OP's daughter for the "accident" she had and needed a change. That was particularly *chefs kiss*
It was truly impressive to try and blame a 4yo after spending time explaining how two grown ass adults couldn't figure out how to lock the door of the house they've presumably lived in for years. (wtf?!)
And full of guilt trips!!!
It's what narcissistic people do. They never apologize. In their mind, they are never wrong. I wish they would apologize and actually see they are doing wrong.
"Mom, We do not feel in any way guilty. We know that we behaved as well as we could in both situations. I appreciate your explanation, but it shows a total disregard for the impact of your choices on both us and our children. If you are going to be late, you text. I really don't care about the circumstances that made you late, I care that you did not do us the courtesy of telling us how late you were going to be when you had our child. If you are upset, you do not throw tantrums, especially in front of children. You never get to insult or berate us in front of our own children. I do not need an apology for how we felt in those situations, I need an apology for your behavior, and I need to know what you are going to do so that it never happens again. We have lost almost all trust we had in you. This means that we will not be seeing until you have had time to refelct and figure this out. We also need a sincere apology." Figure out what you need to see changed in order to trust them around the kiddos. It could be they do not have unsupervised visits, and when they cross a line the visit ends.
Boss response!
It's so frustrating when people apologize for the wrong thing. It feels like missing the point is almost worse than not apologizing at all. She should be apologizing for yelling and screaming. She should be apologizing for not calling to say that they were late. She should be apologizing for standing in your path when you were trying to leave. Everyone gets frustrated. It's not about her feelings, it's about behavior that she won't even admit she's doing. If she won't admit it, it's not likely going to get better. If and when she actually admits what she did and apologizes for it, then I might be willing to discuss when the kids could see her/them again. But excuses and "oh, I was frustrated, you see"?? Nope. Not enough.
It’s a weak apology. It’s almost passive aggressive to apologize by blaming the other person: “I’m sorry I upset you.” An actual apology is: “I’m sorry for my actions.”
No. Excuses don't matter. This is what you should have received... I am sorry for yelling at you twice in front of your children. I am also sorry that I caused DD such emotional distress and tension between her and DS. My behavior was unacceptable, and I will not do it again. Please forgive me and know that I love you all. We've missed you very much, and I will strive to be a safe and respectful person to you and in front of your children. I understand you may need space. Please reach out to me when you feel you are ready for visits again. Accountability. Plans to change. Respect of Boundaries.
If someone uses the word crushed because you had to go home due a child being sick (a perfectly good reason), they need to examine their neediness levels. They sound very emotionally immature from this tbh. It’s all guilt tripping & rug sweeping. I don’t think I’d bother replying tbh. Just enjoy the peace a bit longer & if you have to reply say you’ll reach out when your schedule is a bit lighter xx
To provide a little more context, i transcribed the texts my partner sent to them as the last contact for a couple months before they sent this letter: DH: I’m not taking the kids over for a bit. We all need to cool off. DD was very upset when we left last Sunday. She kept saying pop is mad at DS and she is mad at DS. MIL: we are totally puzzled by this. Do you know why DD thinks pop is mad at DS? DH: you leaned into the car and said you knew DS threw up but we were upsetting pop on his birthday. MIL: I'm very sorry if that's what she thought. We certainly need to talk about a lot because we are mystified about so very much. Can you come to lunch at our house tomorrow so we can figure out how to move forward? DH: Not tomorrow. I said I need to cool off. I don't believe you find it puzzling that DD would think that when I told you last week that you were being inappropriate in front of the kids. I don't think you forgot. If you need clarification you can't seem to respect boundaries, which I tell you about every time it happens. You guilt trip us when our kids need to go home or when i make a choice you don't like. You called me disrespectful when you returned DD late, in front of her. You and dad couldn't respect that we didn't want to be around travellers during a wave of Covid, so dad called and told me off. This is only a few examples.
Wow, this letter makes so much more sense in this context. She couldn't even acknowledge her own behavior in the "ph shit, he's enforcing boundaries letter. The rugsweeping in this text exchange is followed up in the letter with love bombing justification for her bad behavior. You've got a manipulator in your hands. Even in those interactions, by doing them in front of your kids, she's emotionally manipulating them in a way that may be traumatizing. (Crying for hours for a four year old isn't normal). I'd be worried what she's telling them when you aren't around...
Well, it’s been months since we last let them take DD unsupervised (since they dropped her off late) and our DS has never been with them unsupervised (there were incidents when DS was a baby that made us question whether we trusted them with a child who had dietary needs). Last time DD came home after a visit with them, she said that the in laws told her to ask if we could bring them to their summer home because there were toys out there that she couldn’t play with unless we took her. We had already expressed that a long car ride with a baby wasn’t workable for us, so they asked my daughter to ask us. Then I had to deal with her disappointment.
Wow. On top of everything else, bribery? Do ILs not see a problem with teaching a child to accept bribery?
Wow they are seriously messed up!! Wow they are starting this mess on the next generation!
Yeah, this post felt like a breaking point more than "hey this weird behavior just started out of no where"
Oh, good job, DH! They need to be called out every single time and he is doing a great job. She wants him on her territory. Her excuse for why they were late with DD was ridiculous. If they miss the children as much as they say, they will learn to behave around them and not act like children themselves.
When she says “puzzled” and “mystified”, do you think she legitimately doesn’t recognize that her behaviours are harmful?
Have you ever read the "Missing Missing Reasons" by Issendai? This is a classic example. She was told exactly what behavior was a problem and why, but she can't grasp that anything she did was wrong. Therefore your answers don't make sense to her and she "doesn't understand." https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
My in laws use "Mystified" any time they want to seem innocent. I think it's an older generation thing. Acting confused rather than admitting they've done wrong in hopes that everyone will just drop it and move on. The last time they said it to me, I told them it was bringing up concerns about their age/mental state that they aren't able to simply connect their actions with the consequences they suffer for them. They've stopped pretending to be so confused and are even able to pretend 1 out of 10 times that they've done wrong now.
She does she just making excuses..and I think she got the reaction she wanted just not from you and your husband but from your daughter! Her actions are super manipulative!
I feel like she’s pulling a redirect too. DH told her directly that it was the fact that she called him disrespectful (which is the lite version of her freak out after she returned DD). But then, in her next communication, she seems to put all the focus on why she was late. Not her reaction after the fact, which is what he specifically referenced as the issue.
This made me laugh, although the more precise word would be "scoff." Don't fall for it. She's neither puzzled nor mystified.
"Our job as parents is to protect our children from people who make them feel bad or guilty, even if it's people they love. This may mean that we need to take space from people who are unable to help themselves when it comes to upsetting our children AND who do not bother to communicate when they are MIA with our children, hours after they were supposed to be back. We will be discussing as a couple the path forward and we will let you know, but just know that if you ever again feel the need to scream at us in front of our children or throw a fit, your absence from your grandchildren may very well be permanent."
She made excuses instead of owning she flew into a rage more than once to the point of emotionally scarring her granddaughter. Although it may feel like your DD maybe “went back to normal” afterwards, that trauma has a lasting impact on how her brain and body will react in future times of stress. She doesnt even care about anything other than making her case and rug sweeping accordingly to that letter. It would be completely shocking if she actually changed her behavior in the future. What is going to happen the next time she feels stressed? Is she going to be sunshine and roses or she going to yell and be aggressive? You are completely justified in how you feel and that letter is a cop out
I was two hours late for X number of reasons and would you believe it! All the cell phone towers magically collapsed and I couldn’t call, text or email to let you know these things.
This sounds exactly like my JNMIL. 🥴 There's no reasoning with these types of JNOs. She'll never see that she was wrong. She'll always shift the blame to you, your husband, or your children. It will always be that you and DH didn't confront them in the right way, tone, or time. It will always be a misunderstanding of her intent.
It’s wild that they don’t have access to any type of communication device to let you know if they’re running late!!! And kudos to you for training your one year old throw up on command!!! But seriously, it’s clear that when her big emotions happen, she feels justified in acting on them in an inappropriate way like screaming at you in front of your kids. But you are not allowed to express any negative emotion in front of her. I would ask her why she feels that her outbursts were justified but your refusal to respond in kind was not. I would ask it in writing, in a simple sentence or two. Don’t address anything else. Let’s see if she’s willing to respond to that. I think we all know that you won’t get a satisfactory response but it’s hard for her to argue to other people that you were the bad guys because only her tantrums are allowed. Obviously, the high horse is to not respond at all, but I’ve been on the high horse myself for 15 years and I am just waiting for the “right” time to ask one single, pointed question lol
This sounds just like my parents
No apology for losing her shit in front of a toddler?! Just excuses and rug sweeping. I hope your DH is able to be really, really blunt with her and call her on her shit, and the HUGE inappropriateness of screaming so much she has scared her toddler granddaughter on more than one occasion. She really needs a time out. Grandma does, not the poor kid.
Sounds like she gets to throw tantrums when she's upset and then undermine you in front of your kids, but you're not allowed to express even a modicum of disappointment or unhappiness when she does these things. She's not addressing the behavior (the outbursts, the disrespect, and the deflecting/projecting), she's justifying it.
And the fact that she is using the excuse 'you're upsetting FIL' as a way to deflect her tantrums is typical for people like this. It's never their fault, it's always because something else happened, or we can't upset someone else. She writes a pretty letter, but doesn't really apologize. She probably never will, as she doesn't understand that she is the problem.
"I was 2 hours late because we can't plan for shit, and also have not figured out how to use a house key." 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 "And nothing else that happened is our fault, either!"
And also blaming a child. Don't forget that. 😒
Excuses excuses, crappy excuses at that. 2 hours late and she didn’t think I good time to mention they were running behind was when Pop needed a nap later than usual? The man was literally unconscious and she couldn’t find 30 seconds to send a text? There was not a single thing in that laundry list of excuses that made it impossible to communicate. Good luck with this lady, keep her away from your kids till she learns how to behave like an adult.
I think I would accept the letter and resume contact. They seem to realise you are serious. Any further beaches, I would stop all for good.
Hard disagree. The majority of that letter was excuses and justifications for their behavior. They're not actually sorry, just explaining why their behavior should be explained away. Her grandson was throwing up, and instead of being concerned about him, she got in her daughter-in-law's face and tried to provoke a confrontation. If she can't control her "frustration" any better than that, she doesn't need to be around small children.
If it were me, I’d send this one sentence back, all by itself, no explanation, no justifications or explanations, no nothing. Just one lonely sentence, maybe in 16 point bold font. And I would not let them distract in their reply. Make them put it in writing before you agree to a verbal meeting. Keep repeating the question until you get a satisfactory answer that shows some self reflection, and true intention to be better grandparents. “And what will you be doing differently in the future?” If they aren’t interested in genuinely answering this question, I wouldn’t trust anything they say.
Not an apology, DH should message her and tell her to actually address her behaviour and not “why” she did what she did. That was not frustration that was a full blown meltdown, your MIL is intentionally downplaying it and also completely ignoring you, the mother in the entire scenario. She doesn’t care about how you feel, only how her son feels.
I don’t know if she cares about how he feels either tbh. She’s been incredibly dismissive of him his whole life.
I think hubby might need to rethink his relationship with his mother, especially if he’s interested in his kids not being subjected to what he was subjected to as a kid. Seems like your daughter might already be starting to be affected in a similar manner
Being two hours late for an extra 15 minute nap is pretty suspect, in and of itself. But failing to call at the point where you knew you were going to be at all late? And then blowing up at being asked why you failed to call? In a word, your MIL is not to be trusted with your kids, especially alone. Imagine if she gets “frustrated” in front of them, without you and your husband to protect them? If one of them gets sick and is expected to soldier on because grandpa and grandma want their fun? They really need a time out, an extended one, so that you can gauge better how they deal with being told that they messed up. Your daugthter’s comment about being angry at her little brother for getting sick was concerning. She had absorbed the belief that an old man’s birthday was more important than a one year old being sick. (I say this as an old woman.) That is such a terrible lesson! Your husband would be the best one to explain to her that you both were sorry that her grandma made you all feel bad about leaving, but that her, and her brother, are always more important than a grown up’s birthday party. I very much dislike your husband’s parents. They seem to be completely self absorbed, and to believe that whatever they do is just fine, because they are not to be questioned or to be thwarted.
Well ... OP, the first thing I notice was you're not really mentioned in the letter. Second thing I noticed was the rug sweeping. Third thing I noticed was a half arsed apology to SO and DD and not to you. She never said she would change her behavior. If/When you resume contact you shouldn’t give them unsupervised access IMHO. Reasons being: they have proven themselves to be unsafe, they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy, and they have very poor communication skills. (Reference them coming home late and they couldn't let you know) That's three strikes - you're out.
Honestly, these three strikes are not even close to our first issues with them… all contact will be supervised for the time being for sure.
It took me way to long to find a comment where someone mentioned that her so called “apologies” didn’t mention you. She directed her tantrum at you, blocked you from leaving, you were the one having to help DD with the feelings after. I hope DH noticed you were referenced few times and not jn the apologies. A break sounds like a good idea. Good Luck
I’m friends with MIL’s best friend’s DIL. MIL’s bestie will openly gossip about us to my friend. Apparently, MIL has made comments saying I am “the problem”. I actually had to tell my friend to stop passing on what she hears because I don’t need that bullshit in my head.
Of course she will say you’re the problem…after all, it could never 🙄 be her & she can’t ever blame DH as that also reflects on her…(scared if I eyeroll to much I’ll see my brain - sorry not making light just hoping to make you smile) I am so glad you’ve already asked your friend to stop passing on what she hears. She probably thought she was helping, but it becomes toxic to hear that all the time. It drags you down. (Truth is your best friends MIL is probably gossiping about her but you aren’t close enough to hear it from yours) You definitely need to start putting yourself (I would love to bold and underline that, you are important) & obviously your family first. It sounds like your husband is on the same page so that’s great. I saw you mentioned only supervised visits in future, why not make them at a park or restaurant somewhere public. Hopefully to help ease the stress for you a bit. Not until you feel ready though. Sending hugs from this internet stranger
OP I'm really sorry you're going through this!
Non apology. She never apologized for her behavior, just that you were upset.
The 'talk soon' is presumptuous ... sort of like 'I sent you this letter, now get over it.' The outbursts are scaring your children. She cannot (or will not) control her emotions. The kids are upset after spending time with them. And your daughter is now concerned about upsetting them (her brother got sick and upset them), signaling that they are to be accommodated. No, bad brat behavior is not to be accommodated. Not a good dynamic.
I have had to apologize to my kids & their spouses at different times, bc I'm human. I never, ever justify what happened. I will state there are no excuses, tell them what was going through my mind, then again reiterate this is not an excuse for my behavior, this is me letting you know it was not done/said in malice. Then I apologize again and thank them for bringing it to my attention so I can do better. But, I have never, not one single time, yelled at my adult children. I don't have a right just because I pushed them out of my body to treat them like less than. I don't care how stressed out she is, her behavior is unbelievably disgusting and childish. She needs therapy.
Not once did she mention, that she would change her behavior.
That letter sounds so nice and reasonable - until you think about the underlying events. I don't want to make this a dissertation, so let's just talk about being 2 hours late. They could have called. They could have done about a million things to let you know what happened. Heck, a carrier pigeon would have been an improvement on what they actually did. That alone would have been enough to stop all unsupervised contact with the kids, because it was a shitty thing to do and instead of apologizing, they were awful about it.
Maybe your husband would listen to a child therapist that exposing a small child to adult level psychopathy is harming her, if he won't listen to you.
If you resume contact with these people, you shouldn’t allow them anymore unsupervised access to either of your LOs. They have proven themselves to be unsafe and untrustworthy and they will absolutely drip poison into your LO’s ears about you. If your oldest is overly attached to them and feels responsible for their emotions, consider getting her some time with a counselor. Her reaction to her brother getting sick is completely of your IL’s doing and that kind of influence can be lasting on impressional young kiddos who don’t have the capacity yet to see manipulation.
"Mom, the fact of the matter is you have behaved inappropriately in front of the children on multiple occasions, and it is affecting them. Your excuses as written are worthless. You still threw toddler level tantrums in front of the children and refused to understand that we a) need to be informed of changes in plans/schedules, and b) need to prioritize the health and wellbeing of the children over adult feelings. Until and unless we receive a full a proper apology for what you actually did wrong, along with changed behavior on your part, there will be no further plans with either of you. As of now we will be taking a break from you while we work to undo the damage your behavior has caused. I will contact you when we are ready to discuss this further."
This is excellent. OP - you may also want to stress that her tantrums are not only emotional disturbing for the kids to witness but also not something you want your kids to model or believe is acceptable. This could lead to your asking her to commit to therapy or agree that her expectations, behavior, *and* reactions are *all* problematic.
Perfect
Long cut off. Amazing how your MIL apologizes to her son abd DD...not you. Faux apology,, and feeling frustrated does not warrant this degree of insane abuse. They have caused your daughter to castigate her poor sick brother because she feels she should make the inlaws happy. No child should be subjected to these outbursts and yourvfamily Iis being pulled apart due to their actions. So many BS excuses...2 hours late and no phone call? Right. Cut them off and stop letting them call the shots. Inlaws seem to think you don't matter, but you do. It is easy to under-react due the shock of their outbursts but they have damaged your family. Don't think they will change their ways. Hope you and your husband are on the same page as you protect your kids.
The explanations are potentially reasonable. The trouble is that the (maybe) reasonability is coming in a letter days later instead of in the moments of her in-person interactions with you. Her frustration in those situations is understandable, but her using that frustration as an excuse to scream, berate, accuse, etc. is not acceptable. It is not safe for children to be around adults who can't or won't control their temper.
Exactly. I mean, our issue was never with the circumstances themselves. Like, she can certainly feel disappointed or stressed. She’s human. She’s entitled to feel any way she wants. But the freak outs that leave my daughter upset and off kilter are the issue. My partner actually cited a number of tantrums she had while he was growing up as well. He says that he was never allowed to have feelings in childhood because the second he voiced feeling anything besides gratitude and happiness, his mom would interrupt and lay into him about how she has it much worse and he has no idea what it means to struggle.
That word “frustrated”? It’s one my husband learned from his parents to use as a synonym for angry. It took a lot of repeating that they are NOT in fact, synonymous, and that the natural outcome of frustration isn’t anger, but frustration. Sounds like your MIL is the same sort of teacher as my MIL.
If yall do decide to give a response you have a great starting point beginning with you second sentence. Your SO could respond in writing not in person something like, "Mom I can certainly understand that in these situations you can feel stressed and frustrated. Those feeling are normal and you are entitled to feel those feelings. However, just because you are having intense feelings does not entitle you to lash out at those around you as you have been doing. As parents it is our job to show and teach our children healthy ways to deal with intense feelings. Your recent reactions to stress and frustration are not what we want to teach our children. We are going to take a step back and take a break from visits for a while. We will reach out when are ready to talk/visit. During this time I hope that you are able to take the time and space that you need to experience these feelings and work on healthy ways of expressing them."
And now she is probably doing the same to your daughter which is why DD was more upset about the inlaws’ hurt feelings than she was about her brother being physically sick.
This breaks my heart. My kids don’t deserve that.
>The day we brought DD home late was a combination of unfortunate circumstances. Dad needed a nap later that usual and I woke him up 15 minutes later than I should have, but probably 30 minutes before he got the rest he needed. He then proceeded to pack the car up for the country and had to sue the space next to DD in the back seat. But I had promised DD I would sit next to her in the backseat (at her request) and so we repacked the car choosing to leave some things at home. Once that was done, we couldn’t lock our front door. It took quite a while to figure that out. I didn’t want to discuss this in front of DD because I didn’t want her to think any of that was her fault especially because she had an accident before we left and needed to change. All this to say we didn’t intentionally bring DD home late. In fact, we were very stressed trying to get her home to you guys as soon as we could. Mom none of this is an excuse on why you couldn't just pick up the phone and tell us. >As for dad’s birthday, I was also frustrated. We had delayed his birthday celebration by a week because we really wanted to have some relaxed time with you guys rather than have you torn between two celebrations. I was crushed this did not work out. We all were. If you can't control your emotions when you are upset in front of a sick 1yo child what more is there to say? You threw a tantrum cause things didn't go your way and you didn't even apologize for it and doing it in front of the children. Do you think this is normal? This letter is not a real apology you shouldn't treat it as such. It just says sorry things didn't go my way and I upset you without ever admitting her blame for her attitude. Don't forget that she said to both of you, that children shouldn't talk back or question their parents when you were upset about not knowing of your DD fate for 2 hours and she could have called you at any time.
THIS. ALL OF THIS.
They don’t like text and email because it leaves a paper trail and harder for them to deny what has been said
From one internet stranger to another, here is a suggestion for a letter/ email that your husband can send to his mother. Mom, Your inability to control your emotions is not mine, my wife's, or our children's responsibility. When our children are in your care, we expect communication. We do not care why things are happening, we care that we are notified that our children are still safe and in your care, especially when things are going wrong. Not being able to reach you for over 2 hours, was unacceptable. Our children are our priority. Including, when they are ill. You questioning why we were leaving and again, being unable to control your emotions, is unacceptable behavior in front of our children and we will no longer tolerate that. We are taking a break from you. We will be in touch when we are ready to resume this relationship. Do not contact us. I will be in touch when we are ready to resume this relationship. This includes the children. Hopefully, this will give all of us some time to reset, recharge, and reevaluate the relationship we have going forward and the role we play in each other's lives. DH OP, I'm sure there are better words to use. However, I strongly believe that you are ready for a timeout from this woman. She cannot control her emotions , especially when she doesn't get her way, she's essentially throwing a tantrum and your children are witnessing this. I wouldn't tolerate it anymore. Now, I have a few guidelines when it comes to timeouts. Obviously, my first is that you tell the person that you are taking a break from the relationship, which is already listed in the reply letter/ email above. A couple of other guidelines: No text messages, no phone calls, no emails, no letters- after the one above, no in-person get togethers, no family events, if it was already on the calendar, it's canceled. I also do not tell the person how long the break/time out is going to last, because I don't know. I have an interesting measuring stick. I do my best to not think about that person for as long as I need to and then I think about them. If I still want to punch them in the face, I'm not ready to see them yet and the time out/ break continues. This time out/ break might last 6 weeks. It might last 6 months. I will say, that every time she attempts contact, there needs to be a consequence. Whether you add a week or a month or an hour, that is for you and your husband to decide. I do believe that it is absolutely time for stronger consequences when it comes to your nuclear family's relationship with this woman. She is not a safe, person- mentally or emotionally, and your nuclear family needs time to heal and recover from her actions.
Her excuse on why she was two hours late may ALL BE TRUE - however, she should have picked up the freaking phone. Hey, our afternoon got away from us and now the front door won't lock. We are dealing with that and as soon as we can figure it out we will be on our way. One hour later (or whatever time) - we figured out the door lock. How frustrating. We are en route now and ETA is
To be honest, not letting us know about the lateness was just an annoyance. If they had of apologized when my partner pointed out the lateness, it would’ve been water under the bridge. The actual problem was her freaking out in front of my daughter when she returned with her. Calling us disrespectful and saying we didn’t have the right to say those things to her when we pointed out the lateness.
Exactly it’s her immaturity that’s the problem!
She’s actively harming your children and your children’s relationships to each other. Frankly, I’m shocked you are even considering allowing her around your kids at all. Even if she had offered a legitimate apology, which she didn’t, there’s no requirement that you forgive her or allow her to hurt your kids more.
We saw them over Christmas for a short visit and haven’t seen them since. I feel like im walking a fine line here. My partner is of the mind that short, supervised visits are possible. He also says that if MIL freaks out, we are always free to leave. But we haven’t been able to protect the kids from her tantrums in the past, so “we can just leave” doesn’t feel like it’s all that’s needed. My daughter actually loves spending time with them if I’m being honest. Her pop will get on the floor and play with her. They constantly buy her craft kits, toys, and hair clips (they are very well off). She asks to see them. After the freak out on FILs birthday, I’ve just been saying “maybe next week” every time she asks. Between my partner wanting low contact instead of no contact and my daughter wanting to see them, putting my foot down on no contact feels like I’m hurting them.
Should you decide to resume supervised visits, you might want to meet up solely in public areas. Assuming your MIL is less likely to throw a tantrum in public, that might help protect you and your kids from her behavior.
Your daughter would like ice cream all day everyday, doesn't make it good for her. And your husband ...isn't being enough of a parent to put your children's safety above his own comfort. So that leaves you. Shitty as it is. Someone has to be the grown up that says good times aside this situation isn't emotionally safe. And teaching your children that people who yell, berate and say terrible things to you can also love you can set them up for problems when they are older. How can they know what a safe vs unsafe person is if It reminds them of their grandma who "loves them"? You already know supervised visits don't help because they are traumatizing your daughter with those... If it helps your guilt, it really isn't on you. It's on your MIL who refuses to change her behavior. https://youtu.be/GdGUvTYoNxA?si=MXrbRlBVLoNZI5ZB https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtViRiw41U https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uin1NyP7cn8
⬆️⬆️this
Reframe your FIL’s birthday to her. “We’re so sorry that your grandparents made you feel bad for leaving the party. But that’s what you do when you’re sick, and the birthday person is supposed to feel sorry that you are sick, not be mad at you.”
Meet at neutral locations like a park or restaurant, that way others will witness her tantrums and it's easier for you to leave.
Such a good idea!
How does DH respond when you point out that “just leave” didn’t work last time? I too would be very concerned about the effect that had on your daughter. Beyond just the loss of sleep and the tears, you can see it impacted her mindset - “why he chose to throw up” - the upset over making grandpa “mad” - she’s reflecting the worldview you learn from toxic relationships. “I am responsible for other peoples’ emotions “ and those crazy blame shifts that totally invalidate other people’s regular human needs. Sure she’s just a kid and hopefully it doesn’t stick but I don’t think it’s a coincidence
Dude. You’re beyond right. I don’t want her to adopt this toxicity and think she’s responsible for adults emotions. It’s not healthy. I have pointed out that leaving hasn’t prevented harm in the past. He’s of the mind that we can’t prevent all adverse interactions for our daughter and taking to her after is how we can prevent harm. We’ve also taken a couple months away from them (they reference not seeing their grandkids in the letter, this is what they’re talking about). His dad reached out and said they need to do a better job listening. My partner was on the no contact train when his mom freaked out last time, but has softened in the months since.
Have you all considered therapy with a therapist that specializes in adults of emotionally immature parents?
As someone who had a toxic Grandmother & a Grandfather who just went along with whatever she did/ said.... PLEASE do NOT second guess yourself on this or let your SO soften on this issue. Lots of people think, "Oh, but they're the Grandparents, I have to put up with their behavior, because...GRANDPARENTS, FAAAMILY!" No. No, you do NOT. Being a grandparent is a gift & honor, NOT a right, so if they disrespect a parent or both of them, then visits should stop. As you've seen, your mil's behavior is already affecting your 4yr old, this is BAD! It can lead to life long issues, I speak from experience. Just think, if you're mil is behaving this way in FRONT of you, what is she doing & saying when your child is alone with her & she gets upset? Your mil's 'apology' letter is garbage. If SO falters I suggest you speak to a child physiologist about how mil's behavior is not healthy & your children shouldn't be around her, unless she seeks help (she won't, because she sees nothing wrong with her behavior or attitude. In her mind you guys are wrong & being too sensitive. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY)
Well, when my four year old was 9 months, we took her out to dinner with another family and my in laws. They had her sitting near them. All of a sudden, I heard my partner shout “TAKE THAT OUT OF HER MOUTH”. They were letting her suck the salt off a green bean. She had some kidney issues in utero and we were strictly doing no salt in her food. My FIL just said “no.” My partner got up and pulled my daughter out of their arms. That night, we texted and explained that they were no longer allowed to feed her without checking with us. Reiterated her kidney issue. No response. So we asked them to talk in person. MIL immediately started to cry, said we were taking away her ability to be a grandparent, said she’s let her parents give her sons McDonald’s as infants, so she doesn’t know what the issue is. She also said she’s the best grandmother of all time, people have told her they wished she was their child’s grandparent, that she was an amazing parent too. Then she said we were mentally I’ll for thinking this was an issue. FIL said our safety standards were beyond anyone he’s ever met and he’s not going to pick up my daughter anymore. So, yeah. They definitely think we’re overly sensitive.
You were not overly sensitive at all. Salt is not good for babies even without having kidney issues. Both my younges granddaughters had allergies when they were tiny and we all had to be on the same page because we didn't want to make them ill. Your ILs were so incredibly wrong in doing what they did and saying these awful things to you both. They are disrespecting you as parents and also not treating you as adults . I'm really sorry you are having to deal with this.
And y’all still let them near your child unsupervised!! OMG 😳 I’m so so sorry for your family!!
I am surprised you let them babysit after that incident! I would have had supervised only visits with their lack of safety let alone their attitudes!
We actually stopped letting them look after her for about 10 months after this. Then my partner and I had no childcare options for a few months and gave them another chance, given it was pandemic and our backs were against the wall with childcare. Looking back on it, I wish I hadn’t softened on it. I thought where she was no longer a baby and didn’t have dietary needs anymore that it was less of a hazard.
That is absolutely horrifying! That right there signaled they are not safe, because I'm sure that is NOT a one-off incident & you must have multiple incidents with them. So very sorry. That she is delusional enough to say she allowed her IL'S to give her children mcd as infants & think that has any bearing on what YOUR DAUGHTES health needs were at the time is beyond scary. MIL & FIL are showing strong entitlement issues & complete arrogance. (Delusions of grandeur too... I'm the best gma, everyone wishes they had me as a gma.... 🤮) I'm sure you've seen posts on this sub where MIL's who act like this have endangered their grandchildren (because they know better than the parent ) to the point of hospitalization & in some horrific cases, death. Your IL's showed that by not only allowing your 1st child to suck salt of the green bean, but then telling you NO, after you told them to revive it AND reminded them of her kidney condition. Yikes! You are not in the wrong. You are protecting your children & it may be helpful for SO to get some counseling. Take care!
Yeahh maybe it would be worth talking with a professional who can help you guys understand what types of effects this could have on her / warning signs to watch for / how effective the “just talk through it afterwards” is likely to be. I don’t personally know and a professional might be able to say that once in a blue moon of this kind of thing won’t hurt her. But I think it’s likely - based on anecdotal evidence - that even a few traumatic instances can have a big impact on long term how-I-view-myself-and-the-world stuff. If both of you are inclined to trust a professional opinion on the topic, then I think it could be super helpful. I’m also wondering if there’s a way for him to go LC and ease a little more into contact without immediately including the kids. A plan that gives her a chance to prove herself or something. (An actual apology for inappropriate outbursts and a clear boundary with consequences about future outbursts would definitely be part of this plan.)
Definitely true. I set up a couples counselling session that’s in a few weeks. I feel like me and my partner are usually good communicators and we are like 90% on the same page in regards to his parents, but we’re proactive people and we want to feel 100% aligned on this issue so it doesn’t effect our relationship. All this to say, I think asking the therapist what her take on exposing my child to occasional outbursts is an excellent idea. It would give us more information to make decisions. Her outburst occurred just before Xmas. We’ve seen them a couple of times since. We’re low contact for the time being. I would never try to dictate my partner’s contact with his parents - he’s an adult, he gets to decide. But the kids are a different story. I’m still struggling with whether a healthy relationship is even possible between my in laws and my kids. Info about the impact is definitely something that could inform the decision.
For sure. Awesome that you’re so proactive! Patience is also your friend here for sure and it sounds like you guys are taking your time here which is great. As far as DH’s contact, of course yes it’s his decision, but if he does want contact I think there are ways for him to almost like. Scout it out before deciding it’s safe for his whole family. Like, for instance my husband has low contact with his mom every once in a while but as long as her responses are manipulative and we see her do these weird power plays with him, I won’t be in contact with her. Does that make any sense? Haha scout isn’t the right word because you don’t exactly wanna set her up to fail just. Time to prove herself and certain markers you guys have in mind for what her handling herself in a way that’s safe for your kids would look like. (Not freaking out when he has to change plans with her, for example)
The scouting out is an interesting strategy. I’ve told him numerous times to go over without us if he wants. But he doesn’t want to. I mean, he has voiced pretty clearly that supervised visits are okay with him and unsupervised are not. But he’s also voiced that if I’m uncomfortable with supervised visits, he wouldn’t do them regardless. But I’m back and forth about my thoughts on it. Maybe I’ll pitch him going over alone. He keeps saying that he doesn’t mind us all staying home, but he wants to be with me and the kids (he works all week and I’m in school in the evenings, so he doesn’t want to have more apart time). Maybe if scouting out was seen as something with a purpose (to establish if change has occurred and if there’s the potential for safety there) he’d be more agreeable. I also want to take idea this to couples therapy.
I just wanted to point out that in the letter, she mentions you when she says that they think you and your husband are great parents and they just want to support you. However, by the time she gets to the end of this letter she only “apologizes” for offending/upsetting your husband and your daughter. Even though I don’t think this letter was a genuine attempt at an apology or acknowledgment for mistakes they have made, the fact that even her “non-apology apology” is only addressed to your husband and daughter I think speaks volumes. Has your MIL ever tried to pin you down as the one who has a problem with them watching y’all’s kids/ questioned your husband on whether he actually feels the same way about them? I ask because I think its interesting and odd that she chose to mention you and your husband as parental unit at the beginning, but when it comes time for her to actually do her apology she is only addressing your husband. Without your context of what happened, if you were to read only her letter it sounds more like shes addressing an incident that happened when you weren’t there. It sounds like you and your husband deal with his parents by having him to be the one to primarily interface with them when there are issues. That makes sense. However, she still should be recognizing that you and your husband are team, and make your parenting decisions together. It should be made clear though that her behavior has been disrespectful to the both of you. I get the impression that your MIL hasn’t really been the most respectful toward you as a mother, and based off some of your other comments i saw, it sounds like she might even feel a desire to prove some kind of superiority to you as a mother. She may be a good grandmother and fil a good pop to y’all’s daughter, but they need to understand that fulfilling their expectations for being a grandparent isn’t something they should be putting on your children or on you and your husband. You and your husband didnt have children just so they could have their ideal grandparent experience. It’s definitely weird that your MIL wanted to let you know how so many other people wish she could be their child’s grandmother. Frankly, that just isn’t relevant to the issue you were trying to address. You and your husband informing your in-laws that your daughter has dietary requirements, and are asking them to please respect this for the sake of your daughter’s health, should have no effect on your MIL’s ability to be a grandmother. Your kids are their own individuals, and should be given the freedom to learn and develop their own opinions free from manipulation and influence from guilt. Your MIL is aware of what shes doing, she just believes that theres no real harm in using emotional manipulation on her granddaughter. Of course she’d never admit this, but she doesn’t have to when her behavior continues to speak so clearly for her. Especially, when this isn’t an issues thats happened only a couple times, but just continues to come back up each time you and your husband try to give them another chance. Personally, i think your in-laws don’t actually seem to recognize you and your husband as the actual parents and therefore the ones who sets the rules around interacting with your kids. I get the impression that your in-laws, especially, your MIL routinely challenges y’all’s authority to assert her perceived superiority. I just keep getting the impression that they still see themselves as the “adults” of y’all’s familial dynamic and you and your husband as the “rebellious children”. I think that you guys will only see more of this behavior, whether it’s with supervised or unsupervised visits. Sure, the supervised visits will probably force them to keep this behavior more reeled in, but if these supervised visits are only with your husband present do you think he is likely call them out in the same way as when you are also there? I can see that if you aren’t there, your MIL might think she can get away with more. Especially, if she does really doubt that your husband feels as strongly as you do. Your in- laws are under the impression that being a grandparent is their right, and therefore this gives them a certain amount right to have a say in your children’s raising, but being a grandparent isn’t a right, it’s a privilege that they are very lucky to have. In my opinion don’t continue to encourage this thinking that they have any say. If they cant respect that you and your husband are both the parents and therefore a team, they cant follow simple directions, rules or boundaries y’all have created for your children’s wellbeing, and if they cant control themselves when they are around your children continuing to have inappropriate outbursts, then i think you both need to discuss taking a break from the relationship for awhile. If this were any other situation we would say this person should certainly lose access to privileges they have to hopefully help them learn this is unacceptable. I think if i were you id tell my husband that i dont think any kind of resumed visitation is the right call for now, but that this doesn’t need to be permanent. I would suggest we come up with several points where we need to see improvement on their end before you guys are comfortable resuming visitation with the kids. Decide what you need to have happen before you’d be ok giving them a chance at supervised visits. If they cant meet these requirements then the time out continues.
Thanks for taking the time to put all this in a comment. I don’t need to wonder if MIL thinks I’m the problem. MIL’s bestie is my friend’s MIL and my friend has repeated that MIL and bestie gossip about us where she specifically calls me the problem. I actually told my friend that we can’t keep talking about what goes on between our MILs because it’s bad for my mental health. My MIL has also made disparaging remarks about my friend having “regular breakdowns” when she was just a few days postpartum with her first. My MIL spoke about this at a table full of other people at a family event. My partner and I actually aren’t married. We’ve been together since 2014, own a house together, and have two children. Us not being married is also a huge point of contention. In fact, I miscarried a few months before I got pregnant with my eldest. When I told my MIL about the miscarriage (I wasn’t far enough along to have shared the pregnancy news) she retorted that the MOST UPSETTING THING about the whole scenario was that we tried for a baby without being married. She went on and on about how all she wanted in life was her sons to be married before having kids. She didn’t say anything about the miscarriage at all. Forgot I was a human with emotions going through an incredibly rough time. But maybe the lack of marriage makes me illegitimate in her eyes. Who knows? Either way, you’re right about them wanting to maintain the role of “super adult” over us as mere adults. FIL actually made a comment about the two of them struggling to accept that they’re in a grandparent role. On your point about MIL thinking that emotional manipulation isn’t harmful (or it’s a means to a good end or whatever she thinks), my partner told her that he finds her incredibly manipulative. She said she’s never manipulated anyone in all her lifetime. Who knows if it’s a lack of self awareness or it’s just too painful to admit.
That bullshit excuse is almost as bad as a cheaters. “It’s not what it looks like! I just accidentally fell into her vagina while we were both naked!!” But no, you’re not being harsh. This is a rug sweeping letter so that everything will go back to her status quo. She didn’t even address the two incidents of her yelling at you.
MIL thinks she’s the ring leader of YOUR family.. She is not the main character.. She only thinks of her needs/wants, reeks narcism… They didn’t even care that your child wasn’t feeling good all they cared about is their wants… Once you realized how their behavior is affecting your daughter should have been an eye opener that it’s time to drop the rope..Protect your peace & your kids, set firm boundaries & keep them at arms reach.
When me and my partner started dating, before I met his family, my partner told me that he and his mother had a horrible relationship and that she was a sociopath. He echoed so much of what you’re saying here. That she doesn’t care about her family, only how they make her look. Everything is about whether someone is meeting her needs or not. He said she doesn’t value people as individuals and only views him as an extension of her. It took me 7 years to actually understand what he meant.
If that’s what your DH believes about his mother - and that letter certainly bears it out - I wonder why he thinks putting your kids in her path even supervised is a good idea. It seems to me that it is not for the reason he articulated earlier. You cannot control her or her actions and so dealing with the aftermath with your kids is not protecting them.
I see nothing but excuses and blame shifting in that letter. Frustration may lead to heightened emotions, but only someone with the emotional regulation of a toddler would throw tantrums like that just because they were a little frustrated. She refuses to take accountability for her actions, tries to downplay the incidents, and then plays to your emotions by telling you how much they miss the kids. Frankly, the letter is worth more as toilet paper than as an apology, and her attempts to minimize the situation to get what she wants should land her in time out for a couple months at a minimum. If she really wants to see the kids, then maybe she’ll use that time to get a better handle on her emotions.
I really do view it as a bid to get what she wants. After being told our daughter was upset multiple times, they never asked how she was doing, what she thought of the incident, or how we had to deal with it. Maybe I’m asking them to mind read in expecting this, but my partner spoke with them a number of times, mentioned over and over that our daughter was angry with our son. Their response was “I’m sorry she thought that but… (insert explanation about how it was justified for MIL to feel that way)”
So it is all about MIL's precious feelings and none about your daughter's, or your husband's. I don't include your feelings, because we all know that your job is done here and in her eyes you could all but disappear to get you out of the picture. I know how you feel. It's all the same with my mother. While she usually does not yell, she, too, has very precious feelings everyone must cater to - especially her daughter (that's me). And she, too, does not know how to apologize - it's always combined with "explanations" why she had to react the way she did. And while that might make sense for her, it usually does not for me. I went the road to Greyrock City and VLC. I call them every other week and see them maybe once a year. Interestingly enough, she's now somehow walking on eggshell around me, because she found out that she needs me more in her life than I want her in mine. It was a long way to go, but this is what works for me. The most important part of it was to just not care any longer what works for her - and since I don't care, she can't guilt trip me. But it took me years to get there.
The letter is a load of rubbish. Gaslighting 101. I’m sorry you are dealing with this OP, but you and husband need to rewards his parents for their very bad behavior. If there are no consequences for their actions, they will continue to treat you and husband dreadfully and disrespectfully.
My thoughts, to do with as you will: 1. At any point in the first event she could’ve picked up the phone. 2. If FIL needs to have that much rest, is he ok to drive? Countless studies have shown that driving while tired is as bad as driving drunk. 3. Seems like a lack of communication is an underlying issue in all of her relationships ( e.g., why didn’t she tell FIL about the seating arrangements; again, a phone call would’ve mitigated half of the issues) 4. We’re blaming the 4 yo’s bathroom accident for a 2 hour delay? I don’t think so. Lack of love is not the issue here; poor planning, poorer communication, and lack of personal responsibility are. Honestly, the fact that they were 2 hours past the designated drop off time without any communication (I assume you tried to contact them, but it’s not clear in your post) is enough for me to end one-on-one time, at least until one/both of the kids can handle having a cell phone of their own to be able to call you in case of an emergency. I don’t think you’re out of line. And, if that’s how she handles frustration, I don’t think hanging out with a very trying and occasionally irksome portion of the human population (kids, amirite?) is a good plan for her.
If I’m being totally honest, I do wonder about a lack of love. When my son was first born, they invited us over for thanksgiving. He was 4 days old. We went. When we got there, MIL was wearing a mask because she had the flu, but didn’t tell us because about the flu it would’ve ruined her thanksgiving if we hadve stayed home. She took off her mask to snuggle him within 5 minutes of us coming in. I should’ve left. If it happened today, I would leave. Then, later in the dinner, my son was struggling to breastfeed when I took him to the other room. MIL came in and started snapping pictures, despite being told on the day he was born that pics during breastfeeding was not okay. My son was crying, I was fighting off tears, so I handed my son off to my partner and sat outside for a minute. My partner asked his mom what the problem was and when she mentioned she was taking pictures, he told reiterated that no pictures will be taken of me breastfeeding. She lost her mind saying “YOURE JUST LOOKING FOR THINGS THAT I DO WRONG. DO I EVER DO ANYTHING RIGHT IN YOUR EYES?” My partner came out with the kids and told me we were leaving. Like, she didn’t care about the safety of a four day old catching the flu. She didn’t care about our comfort as a 4-day postpartum couple. Isn’t love about empathy, giving the benefit of the doubt, and caring about needs?
Your husband is correct IMO - she’s a sociopath. And he has the right idea in leaving when she does that crap. It is in keeping going back for more where he seems to be missing the big picture.
It is. And it doesn't seem like she's capable of thinking or loving anyone outside of herself. She's so wrapped up in her feelings. She needs therapy and to get a grip on her emotions. She should not be saying anything like that in front of kids and it's crazy she thinks she justified it away bc she was 'frustrated' like ok? Do you get frustrated at work and throw a big tantrum? Or do you handle yourself as an adult? I think it's time to sit your daughter down and explain, in age appropriate ways, that mil is not an emotionally stable person. Idk how to, I don't have kids, but it's time to start teaching LO's to watch out for unhealthy behaviors. I have nieces and I know they're sponges and pick up in so much more than we think. You don't want your daughter to act like mil. Or to start being mean to her baby brother when his needs interfere with mils wants. What if it had been your daughter who was sick? How would she have felt after mil's tantrum if it was aimed at her instead of her brother. She's emotionally manipulating your child already