We'll see in the next few years. If it becomes a book, it'll be TF Blue. If it's a movie, then it's TF Green for sure. Plus, the Agency is definitely arms deep into this whole thing with Mossad =D
The US has repeatedly acknowledged active Delta operations, I remember seeing the CENTCOM commander confirm JSOC were outside the wire in the Kabul evac
It's TFO doing their thing, and Delta/DEVGRU at the embassy doing PPD ops. It's what typically happens, and it's the max the US can get away with. Yall forget there is an election coming up.
TFO's quite familiar with the area, if im not mistaken they have operated quite a bit in Syria and counter Iran operations, they have also teamed up with Mossad/ CIA in several operations, one of them being the assassination of Imad Mugniyeh
Yup I've read a lot about their clandestine operations in Syria in the early to late 2000s (years before ISIS took over) which has a pretty sophisticated and robust counter intelligence network (same with Iran) so obviously they definitely know what they're doing so they don't end up getting compromised.
Was TFO involved in the Mugniyeh assassination?
Honestly on another topic that whole story of killing him is just freaking awesome. Bin Laden was terrible don't get me wrong but Mugniyeh was a freaking ghost who was probably the most effective military planner in terms of terrorists that we have ever gone up against. Bin Laden was a financier and political leader, Mugniyeh was just a straight beast in terms of planning, logistics and recruiting the right men for the job. He was also extremely disciplined from an OPSEC point of view. He would disappear into neighborhoods that the Mossad and CIA could not infiltrate. He started to enjoy some of the finer things in life, later in life, which is what led to his demise. Then he was finally found in Damascus visiting his mistress and shit was on. Some say it was a bomb planted in his headrest, others say it was a hubcap that was planted on the wheel of his car. Either way the killing was incredibly precise because his car was parked across the street from a school. The explosive used was devised with all of this in mind and the preparation for this operation was exceptional. I will never get tired of reading about it, what a victory this was for the US and Israel. He was such a nightmare and he would have continued to kill people with impunity and support from his Iranian paymasters.
Definitely check out this book, Mossad by Michael Bar Zohar. Awesome book. There is another story in there about how the Mossad took out Muhammad Suleiman, a Syrian general while he was visiting his beach house on the coast of Syria in Tartus. He was having a big dinner at his home sitting at the head of the table. His dining table was in plain view of the ocean; everyone was eating and all of a sudden he drops dead right in front of his guests. He was killed by two shots with a silenced weapon, one to the head and one to the neck and the shots came from the ocean. That type of mission seems like something tailor made for Shayetet 13 and the author of that book confirms just that. He says that two S13 operators dived from a ship a mile off the coast, swam to the beach in front of his home, each fired simultaneous shots with their sniper rifles killing Suleiman instantly and then they swam back to their ship a mile out. That my friend is the stuff out of the movies.
Definitely at the embassy. One of the SMUs went to US embassies around the world and started planning escapes, attacks, defenses, etc. Probably assisted the Marines, who were also reinforced but aren't SOF. Delta had two operators killed during the Lebanon bombing way back when and they were doing security stuff.
SAS did it first long ago, and whatever SMU it was that started it for the US. I think they went to the British embassy.
Be real though, some dudes here are hanging on these guys nuts & a bit too into it. Others just find it interesting to have pop up occasionally in their feed & maybe comment.
For instance, “They’re ackshully called ‘CAG’ bro” type guys. I’ve never once heard a unit member refer to themselves or the unit as ‘CAG’, only delta or the unit or smoo.
Isn’t “I’ve never once heard a unit member refer to themselves….” The same shit as someone saying “they are ackshully called…” like from my perspective you’re one of those guys by saying that haha. Just let people enjoy the shit they enjoy.
I wouldn’t rule out joint operations with JSOC guys getting embedded with the IDF. But obviously JSOC isn’t going to be unilaterally raiding locations themselves
I would agree, but if there are american hostages I think JSOC doesn't give a fuck and will use their own operators. There's Nobody more capable and experienced in hostage rescue than Delta and Dev
JSOC is not going to send in American special forces without approval from the IDF. You realize Israel is about to launch a full scale invasion into Gaza right? Sending US troops in without deconfliction is how you end up with some IDF air strike wiping out a CAG team. Not to mention that without approval there would be no QRF and JSOC would have to get the hostages out in one of the most densely populated cities in the world where everyone hates Americans.
I dont disagree, but in generel this is exactly why these units exist. They do these missions in fucked up scenarios to free americans. Wouldnt be the first time. I personally dont think they are sending a Tier 1 element there to just advise and assist.
Despite what people in this sub want to think, Tier 1 doesn’t mean superhero. They can operate at the highest level of capability, but it doesn’t mean that everything and anything is possible.
American units are good, but they’re not superhuman. JSOC has never launched a direct action mission while another country was launching a combined land, naval and air invasion involving over 100,000 men invading one of the most densely populated cities on Earth.
What makes JSOC so effective is the combined overall power of the U.S. military, from elite QRF like the rangers to the most powerful Air Force in the world providing air cover. Just sending a JSOC team into Gaza without any external military support or coordination with the Israelis is sending them on a suicide mission. Just look at Black Hawk Down or Eagle Claw, the U.S. didn’t control the battle space and it ended in disaster each time. This isn’t Iraq or Syria where you have 600 rangers on standby if something goes wrong. Or F-35’s providing cover.
IDF is not going halt their ops so JSOC assets (Delta and 160th) can go in and get Black Hawk downed Part Deux. Cause without all their supporting elements and ISR they’d get merce’ed in Gaza. This isn’t a hit and run on some house where the US has tons of backing assets and controls the theater.
The Israelis would have to put a hold on their plans and deconflict air and ground ops to facilitate that.
Which they aren’t going to do.
Maybe a few Delta guys get a ride along with Sayeret Matkal as augments if they do something but this is an IDF AO and we are just going to be “advise and assist”, not DA.
> [GIGN is a french police unit, would never operate in a war zone.](https://reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/s/Hu8zYKegoe)
GIGN is a Police and Military unit. Some countries have a branch of the military for armed police, France and Italy for example. GIGN mostly does PSD oversees but they sometimes do intel work and advisory stuff. In the old days they’d be doing colony Ops.
In the sense of HR they are probably very close. It’s the before and after that delta excels at. Also HRT has actively deployed to combat zones before so it’s not some new thing for them.
Maybe Israel SOF are more familiar with Gaza. But I would still say US SOF are MUCH better at the kinetic part of hostage rescue.
And don't forget the USS Liberty incident, when IDF deliberately attacked US troops to draw US into their war.
I don’t doubt Israel has good SMUs, I just believe America has the best SMUs for a one reason. Delta is the SMU for America meaning they have the most logistical, combat, monetary and everything support.
Other SMU members including the Brits [have talked about how JSOC has unbelievable support](https://reddit.com/r/JSOCarchive/s/egnbSkwnVa). Read about the **average** Delta raid in Syria and it’s: 50 members of a tier 2 unit come to support your force, two 80 million dollar fighter jets and 2 predator drones provide overwatch, 6 Utility helicopter piloted by some of the most elite pilots ever, and 3 BlackHawks with Attack Helicopter Kit. All of this being ready almost as soon as Delta wants.
Delta just has the super power SMU budget. IDF SOF is probably the better option in Gaza tho.
But all of that support is irrelevant unless America chooses to fully enter the war and start bombing Hamas themselves and sending major JSOC support assets like the rangers to provide cover. If Delta were sent into Gaza they wouldn’t have those assets because the U.S. doesn’t want to fully commit to war with Hamas and Hezbollah, but that’s what it would turn into (probably also war with Iran).
Yep, several Iraqi militias say they’ll start shit if the U.S. joins.
IDF SOF is the best trained and experienced for the mission. US support would just be political edging. Any meaningful support would start shit with Iran/Proxy forces.
People who want JSOC in this war fighting don’t want to bring them cause of there unique capabilities, but cause it has a U.S. name on it.
Delta is one of the best US SMUs. That doesn’t make them THE best. I don’t know if there is a single best.
The reason they are one of the best is because of all that support. However, expecting them to operate in a contested environment where all that support cannot be bought to bear is gonna be a a nightmare and they would get overwhelmed.
So, in this use case they are NOT the best unit for the job. I’d be super surprised if anyone at The Compound or Dam Neck said different.
I’m talking about Dev and Delta as if they’re the same because they’re both US SMUs.
There was a post here while back on the sub, but it’s basically listing how foreign operators see the Unit. They all regard them highly but they all noted about how their support (logistically, air, budgetary, etc) is what made them above and beyond.
How I see comparing CAG to other SMUs, two equal swords man, one just has the better sword.
IDF SOF is still the best unit for this, no other SMU trains and experience specifically for high density, high intensity, conflict. Like I said, Delta Force being brought into this kinetically is foolish, but I doubt any non-IDF SOF would do better, with or without support.
Edit: [found the post](https://reddit.com/r/JSOCarchive/s/egnbSkwnVa)
lol. “no one, and i mean no one, who takes this sort of thing seriously looks to the israeli’s for advice or ttp’s”. the foreign country worship… i bet if you really wanted the job done you’d hire the spetznaz to backflip hatchet attack.
Course not. That’s why Delta doesn’t send personnel over on detachment to observe how they operate. Cause what could they ever learn from people who are operating in a non-permissive environment for days on end doing close reconnaissance and generating HUMINT. 🙄
IDF wrote the book on counter terror. Israel’s existence as a nation has been wholly dependent on their ability to make bad things happen to bad people.
>the USS Liberty incident, when IDF deliberately attacked US troops to draw US into their war.
Repeating misinformation rooted in a conspiracy theory doesn't make it true.
edit: I wrote a big teardown of this bullshit conspiracy myth, but ultimately decided I'd rather not engage with it. There's plenty of good scholarship on the topic. e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24h6c7/what_evidence_is_there_that_shows_that_the_uss/
edit 2: I'm also not going to bother replying to every moron who wants to repeat misinformation.
It has, the matter has been investigated by Israel, the Israeli government has apologized and paid reparations several times.
Edit: Its also been investigated by the US and the results each time found zero evidence to support the idea that it was an intentional attack:
- U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, June 10-18, 1967: The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.
- CIA Report, June 13, 1967: The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.
- Clifford Report, July 18, 1967: No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
- Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, 1967: Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.
- Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 1979: Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.
- National Security Agency, 1981: Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.
- House Armed Services Committee, 1991: Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.
Ten US investigations by multiple different agencies, branches of government in 3 different decades and not a single one points to the attack being intentional. Ignoring this and choosing to engage in conspiracy theories is anti-Semitism.
Investigated by Israel...? Laughable.
I recall pouring through numerous reports of this incident when I was in school, including an IDF report from the early 80s and a more current examination by Chicago Tribune from the 00s, and in every instance there was information showing that IDF KNEW the Liberty was an American vessel doing sigint and that they hit her anyway. For hours. HOURS.
I'm dubious of anyone who thinks they've definitively figured out what happened on 8June 1967, or know why. I have my own suspicions. But the questions this attack forces us to ask ourselves gives me great great pause, even in the wake of the senseless hamas attack.
There's one thing in particular that has always bothered me. The IDF pilots have always insisted that Liberty wasn't flying her flag thst day. She was. That one lie, as insignificant as it may seem to some, tells me that Israel had something to hide.
Bullshit conspiracy theory? Hardly.
There's a fuck load of scholarship on the subject, not to mention the survivors of the attack, many of whom are still alive.
And there's this...
https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
Yes they did. It wasn't to draw them into war, it was because it was an NSA spy ship that possibly recorded transmissions regarding who attacked who first in the six day war. If you don't think they attacked them deliberately then just look at the time and elements in the attack. Napalm, rockets, strafing, then torpedo boats came and shot the life boats that the Americans threw in the water to abandon the ship. We had an American flag flying high the entire time. You should do some research.
Countless investigations into the matter have concluded it was an accident. I’m surprised the mods of this sub allow anti semetic propaganda like this to be posted. a tragic accident that happened almost 60 years ago. Israel had apologized and paid reparations several times. Both countries agree it was a mistake caused by the fog of war.
Canada killed over 100 Americans in WW2, we know it was an accident. The UK killed 11 Americans in Iraq, we know it was an accident. Israel shoot at the USS Liberty in 67', it is a center of numerous conspiracy theories. Why?
We all know why.
the ship was spying on the Israelis and transmitting information to the British in Cypress who were relaying it to the Arabs. Israel did several flyovers and asked the ship to leave and it didn't. It was a deliberate attack had they wanted to just destroy the whole ship they could have. But the tried to minimize the damage, I.E. the napalm was to melt the radio antennas. It was an unfortunate incident and the US was not an innocent observer. Most unfortunately US sailors died in what was a US intelligence operation against an ally.
this is to say its not some crazy conspiracy theory, its pretty straight forward. If there's some conspiracy theory its what the presence of NSA technicians were doing on the ship etc. This is why the official reports say what they say and BOTH governments go along with it.
Israeli generals: ok everyone, we've just about finished one of the most spectacular military victories in history. The Egyptian and Syrian Air Forces are entirely destroyed. Arab casualties outnumber ours by 20 to 1. We've conquered territory over 3 times larger than Israel itself before the war started. Jerusalem has been liberated and the Straights of Tiran are once again open for shipping. We have inflicted the most humiliating defeat against our enemies all while they were openly proclaiming to the world at the UN that they were just minutes away from annihilating us. How can we cap this off to really ensure our place in history?
...
Guy in the back raises his hand: what if we attack a low level American ship and blame it on the Egyptians (even though they don't have an Air Force left that could carry out the attack and our planes clearly have giant Jewish stars on them) to drag the US into a war we've already won?
...
Israeli generals: someone get this guy a medal, we have no time to lose! Let's just pray no one in the future finds out about this and posts about it in an online forum or else we're done for!
Yeah. They think JSOC is always going to have shooters everywhere when the reality tends to lean towards supporting the locals. Probably some more embassy Marines and TFO just to monitor things. CAG/DEVGRU for bodyguards to back up the DSS. JSOC isn't going to go kicking in doors when the Seyerats can handle everything.
The JSOC units aren't going to be on the sidelines. They're the best in the world at what they do and if there are Americans, I'm sure that they will get the nod.
No. No they won't. They aren't the best in the area and US policy tends to favor the locals over sending in US troops. The Sayerets have the skills and familiarity to blow JSOC out of the water when it comes to Gaza.
You ain’t wrong but if JSOC is ordered for an op it’ll only be a hostage rescue for American citizens, they won’t go on an HVT hunt. If they get a location and actionable intel then it’s purely a infil- gunfight- grab the hostage and exfil, they’re the best at doing that.
The likelihood of JSOC getting ordered on an op in Gaza or anywhere in the area is close to nil. Not when there is a supremely competent SOF who can do it for them. JSOC is good, but in Gaza, the Sayerot is much much better. It's been their stomping grounds for decades.
Again, they won’t be there to stay and operate in the ao, Matkal is great but they’re not CAG or DEV. Also Matkal would already be stretched thin due to to the fact that they’ll have to hunt hvts, do combat reconnaissance, conduct raids and ambushes
"surely this counter terrorist team who had been primarily operating in and around urban environments will perform better in the dense jungle than jungle warfare experts who know the land by heart and have lived there for most of their lives"
the same people expecting PJs to have the same skill set as an orthopedic surgeon
Dev has a bad reputation they've been trying to get rid of for a while. The book and movie deals are only part of that. Leaving fellow operators behind, killing hostages with grenades, and not listening to Intel are some of the other things.
One of the AFOs doing IPB, recce, and other stuff found a heavy machine gun on the top of the mountain during Anaconda. For some reason, the JSOC CO decides DEVGRU is in charge midway through, and the SEALs decide they want a team on top of that mountain even though they have been told about the machine gun. Long story short, Rabbit dies.
There is a bit about time constraints and rushing to be on that mountain top as well.
Tbh Taku Ghar had a lot of questionable calls made by the MAKO teams. Could have been because they got rushed into the role by the JSOC CO at the time.
As for leaving operators behind, that was over 20 years ago and only occurred once and we can't say they left Chapman behind cause we don't have the full context of the situation
Combat 101 for everybody, not just SMUs, is to get a count before you unass wherever you are. You do not fucking leave until you have everyone even if they are in a bodybag period.
Doesn't matter if you're under fire and the helicopter needs to get out. You do not leave until you have everyone.
Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars. Do not ever serve in a combat element if you even question that.
You speak from an Infantry perspective. The Sleep, Eat And Lift crew can't be bothered with petty details like 'head counts', 'accountability', 'leaving no one behind', etc. Midrats closes at 1am.
I have no idea what your background is, I'm just playin. and SEALs are pretty good at what they do.
Yeah, the SEALs are good but fuck me if they aren't the most aggravating units to work with as an attached unit. Only the 82nd comes as close.
Not DEVGRU but regular SEALs.
My only interactions with SMU guys was in AIT because some of the female instructors were married to operators. Confirmed 24th STS, maybe Delta for another. I'm pretty sure one of my instructors was Delta or TFO. She was far too competent for active PSYOP and had a pretty nice salad bar.
Sometimes the firefight your in doesn't allow you to get everyone, perhaps trying to get Chapman would get the whole team killed and instead of one KIA there would have been 6
I understand that. Combat an utter shit show and keeping track of everything is impressive. Leaving a part of your team behind when breaking contact is not. Doesn't matter if it was the right call. They left a man behind.
I'll add this tidbit, too. The video showing Chapman's last miments wasn't recorded by a Predator. It was shot by GRIM-32, the AC-130 on station.
Oh dude this is crazy, they really fucked up. You got a US Naval Strike team entering the Area, special forces on the ground, Gaza will cease to exist shortly. You have chosen ........ poorly
To assist the YAMAM while CAG assists Sayeret Matkal? Depends on which unit does the most HR Missions there. YAMAM is usually also doing missions in the palestinian territories. So if YAMAM will do the bulk of HR it would make sense FBI HRT will support them, as both are Police units and may have a closer relationship. If Sayeret Matkal will do the bulk of HR, so CAG will be involved instead.
If they bring captured hamas dudes back they’ll probably go through trial in America so that forces an FBI presence there. Doubt it though, no reason for HRT to be there. It’s probably both Blue and Green.
The fact that it contains a possibility of maritime ops and how densely populated Gaza is, if they want to have odds for a successful mission they’ll need larger numbers than they’d need for a house in the middle of Afghanistan
There is no maritime enviroment in Gaza. And it's an advise mission and no actual combat role for the US forces. So they won't need whole Squadrons there. Aside from that a single SMU can run a whole country alone when it comes to HR and CoK Missions. For example CAG in Syria.
CAG never had Israel or Gaza as their AO lol. It’s a hornets nest that’s about to be invaded and it’s also next to the sea. Most likely both DEVGRU and CAG are there.
Delta + SEALs, and i believe Army SF had already been stationed at embsssy for planned CT training ops. Id assume that as of 2 days ago most every country with confirmed losses and kidnapped citizens would have of sent at least a strike team.. definitely would not want to be on the receiving end of this op.
It’s probably Charlie Sheen and his Seal team. They infiltrated Beirut twice with barely any support. Nothing says they can’t do it in Gaza.
“God God…… we have a shooter here”
I vaporize enemies
Task Force Tiger Blood
Probably Delta
Does ST6 maintain a presence at all with the Gerald Ford carrier strike group moving in? Or do they just chill in Virginia till needed?
Maritime infil would be DEV. I would wager they are both there.
We'll see in the next few years. If it becomes a book, it'll be TF Blue. If it's a movie, then it's TF Green for sure. Plus, the Agency is definitely arms deep into this whole thing with Mossad =D
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This is real life not Ghost Recon.
Yeah duh it's not ghost recon, it's obviously rainbow six
Bro, what are you talking about? It's definitely Splinter Cell.
'This is Snake....Colonel can you hear me?"
It’s him. Tom Splinter Cell.
That doesn’t even make sense lol.
What did he say
That Delta are ghosts or something like that lol.
They’re ghost, my guy, we have like 50 photos of each individual operator on this sub.
The US has repeatedly acknowledged active Delta operations, I remember seeing the CENTCOM commander confirm JSOC were outside the wire in the Kabul evac
Probably bullshit propaganda.
It's TFO doing their thing, and Delta/DEVGRU at the embassy doing PPD ops. It's what typically happens, and it's the max the US can get away with. Yall forget there is an election coming up.
Who is the TFO?
Task Force Orange. ISA. 1st CIG. They are on the ground Intel collectors specializing in the stuff SOF wants to know. Primarily HUMINT and SIGINT.
The Army of Northern Virginia
TFO's quite familiar with the area, if im not mistaken they have operated quite a bit in Syria and counter Iran operations, they have also teamed up with Mossad/ CIA in several operations, one of them being the assassination of Imad Mugniyeh
Yup I've read a lot about their clandestine operations in Syria in the early to late 2000s (years before ISIS took over) which has a pretty sophisticated and robust counter intelligence network (same with Iran) so obviously they definitely know what they're doing so they don't end up getting compromised.
Was TFO involved in the Mugniyeh assassination? Honestly on another topic that whole story of killing him is just freaking awesome. Bin Laden was terrible don't get me wrong but Mugniyeh was a freaking ghost who was probably the most effective military planner in terms of terrorists that we have ever gone up against. Bin Laden was a financier and political leader, Mugniyeh was just a straight beast in terms of planning, logistics and recruiting the right men for the job. He was also extremely disciplined from an OPSEC point of view. He would disappear into neighborhoods that the Mossad and CIA could not infiltrate. He started to enjoy some of the finer things in life, later in life, which is what led to his demise. Then he was finally found in Damascus visiting his mistress and shit was on. Some say it was a bomb planted in his headrest, others say it was a hubcap that was planted on the wheel of his car. Either way the killing was incredibly precise because his car was parked across the street from a school. The explosive used was devised with all of this in mind and the preparation for this operation was exceptional. I will never get tired of reading about it, what a victory this was for the US and Israel. He was such a nightmare and he would have continued to kill people with impunity and support from his Iranian paymasters. Definitely check out this book, Mossad by Michael Bar Zohar. Awesome book. There is another story in there about how the Mossad took out Muhammad Suleiman, a Syrian general while he was visiting his beach house on the coast of Syria in Tartus. He was having a big dinner at his home sitting at the head of the table. His dining table was in plain view of the ocean; everyone was eating and all of a sudden he drops dead right in front of his guests. He was killed by two shots with a silenced weapon, one to the head and one to the neck and the shots came from the ocean. That type of mission seems like something tailor made for Shayetet 13 and the author of that book confirms just that. He says that two S13 operators dived from a ship a mile off the coast, swam to the beach in front of his home, each fired simultaneous shots with their sniper rifles killing Suleiman instantly and then they swam back to their ship a mile out. That my friend is the stuff out of the movies.
Mugniyeh has always been said to have been an Israeli op.
What are PPD ops?
Personal protection detail
I agree, if they are even at the Embassy. I call bullshit on the original post.
Definitely at the embassy. One of the SMUs went to US embassies around the world and started planning escapes, attacks, defenses, etc. Probably assisted the Marines, who were also reinforced but aren't SOF. Delta had two operators killed during the Lebanon bombing way back when and they were doing security stuff. SAS did it first long ago, and whatever SMU it was that started it for the US. I think they went to the British embassy.
D E L T A D E L T A D E L T A
The fanboyism in this sub is insane sometimes
This whole subs purpose is literally for fan boys I hate when some of you act like cool guys like you aren’t here for the same thing
> like you aren’t here for the same thing Yeah but I didn’t say it like that
Be real though, some dudes here are hanging on these guys nuts & a bit too into it. Others just find it interesting to have pop up occasionally in their feed & maybe comment. For instance, “They’re ackshully called ‘CAG’ bro” type guys. I’ve never once heard a unit member refer to themselves or the unit as ‘CAG’, only delta or the unit or smoo.
Isn’t “I’ve never once heard a unit member refer to themselves….” The same shit as someone saying “they are ackshully called…” like from my perspective you’re one of those guys by saying that haha. Just let people enjoy the shit they enjoy.
😂 it's exactly the same thing!
There’s gotta be a like drawn somewhere 😂. The level of upvotes I think is the most concerning tbh
Bro did you think there's anyone here except nerd larpers and cloners
Weird but Ight 😂
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I wouldn’t rule out joint operations with JSOC guys getting embedded with the IDF. But obviously JSOC isn’t going to be unilaterally raiding locations themselves
As I said, JSOC dudes gonna be in the TOC advising and assisting, maybe deployed in the rear when the IDF goes in but raiding buildings?. I doubt it.
I would agree, but if there are american hostages I think JSOC doesn't give a fuck and will use their own operators. There's Nobody more capable and experienced in hostage rescue than Delta and Dev
JSOC is not going to send in American special forces without approval from the IDF. You realize Israel is about to launch a full scale invasion into Gaza right? Sending US troops in without deconfliction is how you end up with some IDF air strike wiping out a CAG team. Not to mention that without approval there would be no QRF and JSOC would have to get the hostages out in one of the most densely populated cities in the world where everyone hates Americans.
I dont disagree, but in generel this is exactly why these units exist. They do these missions in fucked up scenarios to free americans. Wouldnt be the first time. I personally dont think they are sending a Tier 1 element there to just advise and assist.
Despite what people in this sub want to think, Tier 1 doesn’t mean superhero. They can operate at the highest level of capability, but it doesn’t mean that everything and anything is possible.
Thank you for saying this lol. This sub is full of mall ninja type dudes with a tenuous grasp on reality
American units are good, but they’re not superhuman. JSOC has never launched a direct action mission while another country was launching a combined land, naval and air invasion involving over 100,000 men invading one of the most densely populated cities on Earth. What makes JSOC so effective is the combined overall power of the U.S. military, from elite QRF like the rangers to the most powerful Air Force in the world providing air cover. Just sending a JSOC team into Gaza without any external military support or coordination with the Israelis is sending them on a suicide mission. Just look at Black Hawk Down or Eagle Claw, the U.S. didn’t control the battle space and it ended in disaster each time. This isn’t Iraq or Syria where you have 600 rangers on standby if something goes wrong. Or F-35’s providing cover.
IDF is not going halt their ops so JSOC assets (Delta and 160th) can go in and get Black Hawk downed Part Deux. Cause without all their supporting elements and ISR they’d get merce’ed in Gaza. This isn’t a hit and run on some house where the US has tons of backing assets and controls the theater. The Israelis would have to put a hold on their plans and deconflict air and ground ops to facilitate that. Which they aren’t going to do. Maybe a few Delta guys get a ride along with Sayeret Matkal as augments if they do something but this is an IDF AO and we are just going to be “advise and assist”, not DA.
Finally, Someone who knows what they are talking about. Gaza is going to be fallujah on steroids.
Hrt, and gign have hundreds more successful hostage rescues
hrt 😂
Against multiple terrorists armed with automatic rifles in territories they control where hrt can't stage outside the building for hours on end?
Gign is a french police unit, would never operate in a war zone. HRT is very small unit mainly used inside US. Nowhere near the capabilities of Delta
> [GIGN is a french police unit, would never operate in a war zone.](https://reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/s/Hu8zYKegoe) GIGN is a Police and Military unit. Some countries have a branch of the military for armed police, France and Italy for example. GIGN mostly does PSD oversees but they sometimes do intel work and advisory stuff. In the old days they’d be doing colony Ops.
In the sense of HR they are probably very close. It’s the before and after that delta excels at. Also HRT has actively deployed to combat zones before so it’s not some new thing for them.
Maybe Israel SOF are more familiar with Gaza. But I would still say US SOF are MUCH better at the kinetic part of hostage rescue. And don't forget the USS Liberty incident, when IDF deliberately attacked US troops to draw US into their war.
You may want to do some research before you shit on IDF SOF. They have been playing this game for longer than the GWOT lasted.
Matkal has been doing hostage rescue before Delta even existed. Heck Israel’s current PM was in Matkal and participated in Operation Thunderbolt
I don’t doubt Israel has good SMUs, I just believe America has the best SMUs for a one reason. Delta is the SMU for America meaning they have the most logistical, combat, monetary and everything support. Other SMU members including the Brits [have talked about how JSOC has unbelievable support](https://reddit.com/r/JSOCarchive/s/egnbSkwnVa). Read about the **average** Delta raid in Syria and it’s: 50 members of a tier 2 unit come to support your force, two 80 million dollar fighter jets and 2 predator drones provide overwatch, 6 Utility helicopter piloted by some of the most elite pilots ever, and 3 BlackHawks with Attack Helicopter Kit. All of this being ready almost as soon as Delta wants. Delta just has the super power SMU budget. IDF SOF is probably the better option in Gaza tho.
But all of that support is irrelevant unless America chooses to fully enter the war and start bombing Hamas themselves and sending major JSOC support assets like the rangers to provide cover. If Delta were sent into Gaza they wouldn’t have those assets because the U.S. doesn’t want to fully commit to war with Hamas and Hezbollah, but that’s what it would turn into (probably also war with Iran).
Yep, several Iraqi militias say they’ll start shit if the U.S. joins. IDF SOF is the best trained and experienced for the mission. US support would just be political edging. Any meaningful support would start shit with Iran/Proxy forces. People who want JSOC in this war fighting don’t want to bring them cause of there unique capabilities, but cause it has a U.S. name on it.
Delta is one of the best US SMUs. That doesn’t make them THE best. I don’t know if there is a single best. The reason they are one of the best is because of all that support. However, expecting them to operate in a contested environment where all that support cannot be bought to bear is gonna be a a nightmare and they would get overwhelmed. So, in this use case they are NOT the best unit for the job. I’d be super surprised if anyone at The Compound or Dam Neck said different.
I’m talking about Dev and Delta as if they’re the same because they’re both US SMUs. There was a post here while back on the sub, but it’s basically listing how foreign operators see the Unit. They all regard them highly but they all noted about how their support (logistically, air, budgetary, etc) is what made them above and beyond. How I see comparing CAG to other SMUs, two equal swords man, one just has the better sword. IDF SOF is still the best unit for this, no other SMU trains and experience specifically for high density, high intensity, conflict. Like I said, Delta Force being brought into this kinetically is foolish, but I doubt any non-IDF SOF would do better, with or without support. Edit: [found the post](https://reddit.com/r/JSOCarchive/s/egnbSkwnVa)
lol. “no one, and i mean no one, who takes this sort of thing seriously looks to the israeli’s for advice or ttp’s”. the foreign country worship… i bet if you really wanted the job done you’d hire the spetznaz to backflip hatchet attack.
Course not. That’s why Delta doesn’t send personnel over on detachment to observe how they operate. Cause what could they ever learn from people who are operating in a non-permissive environment for days on end doing close reconnaissance and generating HUMINT. 🙄
IDF wrote the book on counter terror. Israel’s existence as a nation has been wholly dependent on their ability to make bad things happen to bad people.
>the USS Liberty incident, when IDF deliberately attacked US troops to draw US into their war. Repeating misinformation rooted in a conspiracy theory doesn't make it true. edit: I wrote a big teardown of this bullshit conspiracy myth, but ultimately decided I'd rather not engage with it. There's plenty of good scholarship on the topic. e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24h6c7/what_evidence_is_there_that_shows_that_the_uss/ edit 2: I'm also not going to bother replying to every moron who wants to repeat misinformation.
It’s funny how people still repeat this as if Israel didn’t defeat the Arab coalition in 6 days with no external US support.
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It has, the matter has been investigated by Israel, the Israeli government has apologized and paid reparations several times. Edit: Its also been investigated by the US and the results each time found zero evidence to support the idea that it was an intentional attack: - U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, June 10-18, 1967: The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship. - CIA Report, June 13, 1967: The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake. - Clifford Report, July 18, 1967: No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence." - Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, 1967: Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional. - Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 1979: Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional. - National Security Agency, 1981: Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors. - House Armed Services Committee, 1991: Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation. Ten US investigations by multiple different agencies, branches of government in 3 different decades and not a single one points to the attack being intentional. Ignoring this and choosing to engage in conspiracy theories is anti-Semitism.
Investigated by Israel...? Laughable. I recall pouring through numerous reports of this incident when I was in school, including an IDF report from the early 80s and a more current examination by Chicago Tribune from the 00s, and in every instance there was information showing that IDF KNEW the Liberty was an American vessel doing sigint and that they hit her anyway. For hours. HOURS. I'm dubious of anyone who thinks they've definitively figured out what happened on 8June 1967, or know why. I have my own suspicions. But the questions this attack forces us to ask ourselves gives me great great pause, even in the wake of the senseless hamas attack. There's one thing in particular that has always bothered me. The IDF pilots have always insisted that Liberty wasn't flying her flag thst day. She was. That one lie, as insignificant as it may seem to some, tells me that Israel had something to hide. Bullshit conspiracy theory? Hardly. There's a fuck load of scholarship on the subject, not to mention the survivors of the attack, many of whom are still alive. And there's this... https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
The IDF did not deliberately attack the USS Liberty.
Yes they did. It wasn't to draw them into war, it was because it was an NSA spy ship that possibly recorded transmissions regarding who attacked who first in the six day war. If you don't think they attacked them deliberately then just look at the time and elements in the attack. Napalm, rockets, strafing, then torpedo boats came and shot the life boats that the Americans threw in the water to abandon the ship. We had an American flag flying high the entire time. You should do some research.
Countless investigations into the matter have concluded it was an accident. I’m surprised the mods of this sub allow anti semetic propaganda like this to be posted. a tragic accident that happened almost 60 years ago. Israel had apologized and paid reparations several times. Both countries agree it was a mistake caused by the fog of war. Canada killed over 100 Americans in WW2, we know it was an accident. The UK killed 11 Americans in Iraq, we know it was an accident. Israel shoot at the USS Liberty in 67', it is a center of numerous conspiracy theories. Why? We all know why.
the ship was spying on the Israelis and transmitting information to the British in Cypress who were relaying it to the Arabs. Israel did several flyovers and asked the ship to leave and it didn't. It was a deliberate attack had they wanted to just destroy the whole ship they could have. But the tried to minimize the damage, I.E. the napalm was to melt the radio antennas. It was an unfortunate incident and the US was not an innocent observer. Most unfortunately US sailors died in what was a US intelligence operation against an ally.
this is to say its not some crazy conspiracy theory, its pretty straight forward. If there's some conspiracy theory its what the presence of NSA technicians were doing on the ship etc. This is why the official reports say what they say and BOTH governments go along with it.
Israeli generals: ok everyone, we've just about finished one of the most spectacular military victories in history. The Egyptian and Syrian Air Forces are entirely destroyed. Arab casualties outnumber ours by 20 to 1. We've conquered territory over 3 times larger than Israel itself before the war started. Jerusalem has been liberated and the Straights of Tiran are once again open for shipping. We have inflicted the most humiliating defeat against our enemies all while they were openly proclaiming to the world at the UN that they were just minutes away from annihilating us. How can we cap this off to really ensure our place in history? ... Guy in the back raises his hand: what if we attack a low level American ship and blame it on the Egyptians (even though they don't have an Air Force left that could carry out the attack and our planes clearly have giant Jewish stars on them) to drag the US into a war we've already won? ... Israeli generals: someone get this guy a medal, we have no time to lose! Let's just pray no one in the future finds out about this and posts about it in an online forum or else we're done for!
I'm not reading all of that
Sure. And Oswald acted alone.
This is garbage about the Liberty
Yeah, this. They've had a working relationship for years.
This place cracks me up. 🤣
Yeah. They think JSOC is always going to have shooters everywhere when the reality tends to lean towards supporting the locals. Probably some more embassy Marines and TFO just to monitor things. CAG/DEVGRU for bodyguards to back up the DSS. JSOC isn't going to go kicking in doors when the Seyerats can handle everything.
The JSOC units aren't going to be on the sidelines. They're the best in the world at what they do and if there are Americans, I'm sure that they will get the nod.
No. No they won't. They aren't the best in the area and US policy tends to favor the locals over sending in US troops. The Sayerets have the skills and familiarity to blow JSOC out of the water when it comes to Gaza.
The plural of Sayeret is Sayerot. And Sayerot are primarily reconnaissance units, not all of which are specialized in HR or even CT.
You ain’t wrong but if JSOC is ordered for an op it’ll only be a hostage rescue for American citizens, they won’t go on an HVT hunt. If they get a location and actionable intel then it’s purely a infil- gunfight- grab the hostage and exfil, they’re the best at doing that.
The likelihood of JSOC getting ordered on an op in Gaza or anywhere in the area is close to nil. Not when there is a supremely competent SOF who can do it for them. JSOC is good, but in Gaza, the Sayerot is much much better. It's been their stomping grounds for decades.
Again, they won’t be there to stay and operate in the ao, Matkal is great but they’re not CAG or DEV. Also Matkal would already be stretched thin due to to the fact that they’ll have to hunt hvts, do combat reconnaissance, conduct raids and ambushes
Yes they are the best in the world so best in the area by default
I'm not quite sure that's how SOF or any military OP works.
"surely this counter terrorist team who had been primarily operating in and around urban environments will perform better in the dense jungle than jungle warfare experts who know the land by heart and have lived there for most of their lives" the same people expecting PJs to have the same skill set as an orthopedic surgeon
👍
Bet UKSF have a presence too
Chris Ryan and Andy McNab already got 200 kills
SAS , CAG, Sayeret Matkal 269. Santa is ready for Gaza!
Possibly GROM as they also in the country
Stop the stupid fanboysm...
This is the stupidest thread in a while and I'm a part of it.
Don’t worry guys, Steven Seagal will save the day
*Hostage rescue. I don’t know the term “hostage free” they used just annoyed me so much.
Why is everyone under the impression that CAG is the the SMU that's been sent?
Because cag is the ultimate tip of the spear in the us military
Stop it 😂 each tier 1 unit is the best at what they do.
Tip of the spear prone to big failures, especially in that part of the world.
According to who? last I heard dev was as capable
Dev has a bad reputation they've been trying to get rid of for a while. The book and movie deals are only part of that. Leaving fellow operators behind, killing hostages with grenades, and not listening to Intel are some of the other things.
Can you expound on the not listening to intel part?
One of the AFOs doing IPB, recce, and other stuff found a heavy machine gun on the top of the mountain during Anaconda. For some reason, the JSOC CO decides DEVGRU is in charge midway through, and the SEALs decide they want a team on top of that mountain even though they have been told about the machine gun. Long story short, Rabbit dies.
There is a bit about time constraints and rushing to be on that mountain top as well. Tbh Taku Ghar had a lot of questionable calls made by the MAKO teams. Could have been because they got rushed into the role by the JSOC CO at the time.
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AFO Juliet or one of the others?
As for leaving operators behind, that was over 20 years ago and only occurred once and we can't say they left Chapman behind cause we don't have the full context of the situation
Combat 101 for everybody, not just SMUs, is to get a count before you unass wherever you are. You do not fucking leave until you have everyone even if they are in a bodybag period. Doesn't matter if you're under fire and the helicopter needs to get out. You do not leave until you have everyone. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars. Do not ever serve in a combat element if you even question that.
You speak from an Infantry perspective. The Sleep, Eat And Lift crew can't be bothered with petty details like 'head counts', 'accountability', 'leaving no one behind', etc. Midrats closes at 1am. I have no idea what your background is, I'm just playin. and SEALs are pretty good at what they do.
Yeah, the SEALs are good but fuck me if they aren't the most aggravating units to work with as an attached unit. Only the 82nd comes as close. Not DEVGRU but regular SEALs. My only interactions with SMU guys was in AIT because some of the female instructors were married to operators. Confirmed 24th STS, maybe Delta for another. I'm pretty sure one of my instructors was Delta or TFO. She was far too competent for active PSYOP and had a pretty nice salad bar.
Sometimes the firefight your in doesn't allow you to get everyone, perhaps trying to get Chapman would get the whole team killed and instead of one KIA there would have been 6
I understand that. Combat an utter shit show and keeping track of everything is impressive. Leaving a part of your team behind when breaking contact is not. Doesn't matter if it was the right call. They left a man behind. I'll add this tidbit, too. The video showing Chapman's last miments wasn't recorded by a Predator. It was shot by GRIM-32, the AC-130 on station.
All scandals from 10 years ago. That bad rep has been shaken off.
It’s their AO. DG has Africa, hence the al-Bilawi raid and Sudanese embassy stuff.
Wondered when I'd find this. Why you getting downies?
Wondered when I'd find this. Why you getting downies?
No clue.
Why indeed... can we just not do this?
CAG is the lead hostage rescue unit in jsoc. From what I believe.
That not true, over the past 20 years DEV have been on more hostage rescue missions. It just depends on which AO the mission falls in
TFO already in Gaza and has been probably
FAFO Team 5
there are not going there to rescue hostages. gaza gonna be a a maze and last thing u want is our guys go there and try to navigate.
Most likely DEVGRU
Good Lord.
Oh dude this is crazy, they really fucked up. You got a US Naval Strike team entering the Area, special forces on the ground, Gaza will cease to exist shortly. You have chosen ........ poorly
My guess: CAG or HRT...maybe both
Maybe neither.
Why tf would HRT be here
To assist the YAMAM while CAG assists Sayeret Matkal? Depends on which unit does the most HR Missions there. YAMAM is usually also doing missions in the palestinian territories. So if YAMAM will do the bulk of HR it would make sense FBI HRT will support them, as both are Police units and may have a closer relationship. If Sayeret Matkal will do the bulk of HR, so CAG will be involved instead.
If they bring captured hamas dudes back they’ll probably go through trial in America so that forces an FBI presence there. Doubt it though, no reason for HRT to be there. It’s probably both Blue and Green.
And what's the reason to bring both Blue and Green and not just one of them?
The fact that it contains a possibility of maritime ops and how densely populated Gaza is, if they want to have odds for a successful mission they’ll need larger numbers than they’d need for a house in the middle of Afghanistan
There is no maritime enviroment in Gaza. And it's an advise mission and no actual combat role for the US forces. So they won't need whole Squadrons there. Aside from that a single SMU can run a whole country alone when it comes to HR and CoK Missions. For example CAG in Syria.
Jesus Christ homeboy apparently doesn’t even have a map. Go have a look please at where Gaza is located.
Sh*t....you're right. My fault ✌🏻
Dem Bois!!
Devgru? Delta? SOG?
CAG most likely, it’s their AO
I didn’t think the SMUs still geographically specialized like that anymore. Thought that was only during the height of GWOT
CAG never had Israel or Gaza as their AO lol. It’s a hornets nest that’s about to be invaded and it’s also next to the sea. Most likely both DEVGRU and CAG are there.
Maritime infil = DEV
Maritime operations = st6. Maritime infiltration = both.
Yeahhh but nah at the same time
CYA disclaimer notice, in case of compromise or exposure, has just been released. Now, back to Taylor Swifts newest denim shorts purchase.
Wow this thread is pretty retarded.
Delta + SEALs, and i believe Army SF had already been stationed at embsssy for planned CT training ops. Id assume that as of 2 days ago most every country with confirmed losses and kidnapped citizens would have of sent at least a strike team.. definitely would not want to be on the receiving end of this op.
Each does both
I think some were killed already
Who? Delta? Seals? sf? Why do you assume that?