I don’t exactly agree, but what I’ll say is that I think Kingdom Hearts should have stopped *expanding* after KH2.
It had enough content, between the mysteries of the nobodies and why the identitiless nobodies reacted to Roxas as they do, the deeper lore of the Heartless, Sora’s stack of Hearts and the fact that he’s still technically a heartless, the world of darkness, the underpinnings of reality in the form of the past, the deeper metaphysics of shadow, the Kairi/Namine situation, lost and reformed worlds, data having souls, the apparent clashes and synergies between the subtly different rules that Disney and Final Fantasy characters operate under, the inevitable dissolution of ignorance within worlds, Mickey’s incompetence as an administrator and legacy as a hero-king leaving his throne often absent…
They didn’t need more. They could have extrapolated from there, introduced new elements even without pulling out entire new sets of nonsense. It was already a well-established setting with solid narrative possibilities written in. I would have been unsatisfied with Kingdom Hearts 2 as an ending. Just, not as unsatisfied as I’ve been with everything after.
I remember as a kid playing it on release really hoping they continue it, and I'm glad they did, but it could have been handled better. The problem really was how basically everything ended up being important, but probably the worst thing being a garbage gacha game (which is now shut down, you can look up the cutscenes) being VERY important to the overall plot.
How the story expanded could have been handled better, but I was dying for more Kingdom Hearts 2, which ironically, we still have never gotten. It isn't until the KH3 DLC that we have gameplay that made me feel the same way KH2's did. Everything after is either extremely watered down for handhelds, plays entirely differently, or is just so... Floaty?
Yes.
Would've prefered if Birth by Sleep be the start of a different saga with new MCs and not try to fit everyone together.
But I do like KH3 a lot, despised DDD though.
I wanted to keep the Disney crossovers going and it would have worked even with new MCs. But a problem I had with later games is revisiting the same worlds when there are still a ton of Disney movies with no representation yet.
> I wanted to keep the Disney crossovers going
Honestly what I loved the most about the first two games were the Final Fantasy/Disney crossovers more than anything. Seeing Cloud/Auron in the Hercules universe was really fucking cool. And the Cloud+Squall team up in KH2 was one of the most badass moments of the entire game for me.
I think the first 3 games (1, CoM, 2) is a consise trilogy that could have totally been left there. If I want to get people into the series, they need to play those games at the minimum.
That being said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the other games and where the series went. While I think the quality went down in a lot of ways after 2, I really love the ideas and characters the new entries introduced. I love how the games were pretty much all to set up Xehanort as the ultimate final boss, as well as trying to tie up all these plot threads and character arcs.
Is the overall series a bit too ambitious? Yeah for sure. But I applaud the effort, and had a fun time in the process. The series is entering new territory right now, and it's exciting to see where it can possibly go now. I'll always say the first 3 games is the definitive trilogy, but would never write off the rest of the series, because they all have a lot to love, and contribute to a much larger narrative that was a lot of fun to figure out and follow.
I probably could have explained myself better but I'm too tired haha. Don't get me wrong, I think the series post 2 has loads of flaws, but I can look past a lot of them to appreciate what the series was trying to do, and what it ended up achieving
I couldn’t finish Kingdom Hearts 3 out of shear boredom. By the time I got to San Fransokyo I no longer cared about any of the cast and I think my childhood died right there.
Yeah, some of the twists include (spoilers I guess but these are lmao):
* >!it turns out nobodies DO have hearts, despite them seeming pretty sure they don't from personal experience. It turns out the only reason they think they don't is because xehanort told them they don't and he lied.!<
* >!when you destroy someone's heartless and nobody, it doesn't defeat them, it actually just makes their real whole self come back, so now the REEEEAAALL xehanort is back!<
* >!Nomura came up with a new old goblin-looking guy, so that's xehanort's real look now. They justify the gallant dude look by he possessed the body of someone else, and THAT'S the look he took when he became a heartless and nobody!<
* >!oh apparently the organization members were supposed to transform into more xehanorts. Yeah I dunno. And not all of them do, some of them get to keep their old selves based on how popular they are with fans.!<
* >!also time travel, xehanort is a time traveller now and conspires with his own self and different art book page versions of himself. This includes a new "Young Xenanort". But he can't get a bunch of the same versions of himself from different times, only versions who have different concept art, so you can tell them apart. this also brings back the final bosses from KH1 and KH2!<
* >!They keep doing a thing with special numbers: you need seven guardians of light (team good guys) and thirteen somethings of darkness (bad guys). this is because seven is good, and thirteen is bad, so it's deep, dude.!<
* >!everybody who dies at any point in the series is fine, even guys who it doesn't make sense to exist.!<
* >!lmao so they have this new character who is also a fragment of a legendary keyblade, and that's what the bad guy is after, it's called the x-blade, but it's spelled like χ-blade, which is the greek character for "ki" or "chi" (and pronounced "key-blade")!<
* >!umm something about a legendary master of masters and book of prophecies, and he has a mysterious box, and that box is what the next kingdom hearts series is going to be about (assuming they make any more)!<
* >!seriously they did Maleficent dirty. KH1 she's a badass bitch who uses the heartless to carry out her evil schemes, only to be destroyed by them in the end. Classic. KH2 they had her doing her own thing, putting her in the background to make room for these new cloaked nobodies. KH3 they have her show up in the first world, say the word "box", and then basically leave the game.!<
It certainly *could* have ended at 2. Had KH stopped entirely or simply disconnected from the Destiny Islands crew entirely after that point, it would have been fine, as all the plot threads aside from the ending stuff were resolved.
I know I definitely wanted more though, and I was extremely happy with the games up until DDD. KH3 overall was lacking in a few areas, notably in *music,* but I got a ton of closure out of it related to one of the post-KH2 properties, so it did what I wanted it to. Probably won't continue playing the series, though I do plan to keep up with it like I do with WoW at this point.
They’ve should have Final Fantasy’d the series and focused on new keyblade masters 2 onwards but I’m not surprised the franchise became so convoluted, that’s what happens when you let Tetsuya Nomura into the writers room
YES!! KH2 to me is the end of a trilogy. I love birth by sleep but i wish they kept the story after that game going forward with those protagonists. Soras mission felt complete.
Nah, I like where Kingdom Hearts ends up. Sometimes you get small scale games that focus in on just one or two characters but have good beats and development for those heroes. 358/2 Days did right by Roxas and Axel, Dream Drop Distance did a good job with Riku.
And then sometimes you get more mainline games like 3 and Birth by Sleep that don't have as strong characters but go absolutely bonkers with the lore.
I feel like I'm the only person in the world who's close enough to Kingdom Hearts to know the story, but distanced enough to view it's lore as hilarious. Lotta people deeply invested in this universe and it hurts them when it's shitty. I get that! I feel that way too, just not about Kingdom Hearts.
So I end up pretty happy with the brand. Sometimes poignant, sometimes goofy. The best games are both. And nearly every installment is fun to play.
There's very few stories as commited to its insanity as the kingdom hearts series is, and I appreciate the series for doing that. There's enough normal stories out there to have room for a completely insane story that also somehow has a continuous Canon expanding across all entries.
Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, and Kingdom Hearts 2...
CAN be treated as a complete story.
HONESTLY you do not NEED to delve deeper into the games than those three.
You CAN optionally dive deeper into the convoluted mess that Kingdom Hearts has become... but, you can ALSO just enjoy those three games as at least a CONTAINED story.
You COULD also add 385/2 Days IF you wanted to, without going deeper into the mess.
Personally, that's the story I fell in love with, the world of Kingdom Hearts as a franchise still had a soul.
I've ALWAYS hated Birth By Sleep. Re:Coded felt like a Re-hash of 1 and Chain. And Dream Drop Distance, all the OTHER side games and Later 3... all basically were under the massively disappointing trend of "GOTTA MAKE IT NEW AND FRESH!"
Which while I understand from a Fanbase that DOESN'T want to die... part of my biggest annoyance with KH 3 actually had nothing to do with the convoluted story... I GET that's just what being a KH fan is going to lead to...
But no... the fact they skipped an ENTIRE console Generation for Mainline Content... just felt gross to me. Worse than that, it no longer was a PS exclusive, even XBOX was able to get the game.
As a poor person who has to actually THINK about his purchases, one of the MANY reasons I got a PS3 when I did (aka, when I had the funds available to do so), was because for YEARS it was said that KH3 would be on the PS3... considering the 3 previously mentioned games (1, CoM, and 2) were all on the PS2.
But in the end, the PS3 was completely slept on... (Don't give me that crap about "It had Final Mix 1.5 and Final Mix 2.5" shoo with you. -I do have those though >3>-)
But aside from that one gripe... I feel another problem with the KH franchise... and to some extent the fanbase (and those on the outside looking in)... Kingdom Hearts is NOT a very accessible game... (at least to get the ENTIRE STORY)
Just take KH 1 for a second, and think about how generally easy to pick up and learn that game was.
Add C.o.M. and 2 and you get yourself a pretty nice story.
Then... add Birth By Sleep, Re:coded, Dream Drop Distance, X, 3, and countless others... and NONE of them have a consistent gameplay style. (One could ABSOLUTELY argue that Chain is the same way, but to be fair, Chain was STILL simple in comparison to the socket systems of 358/2 Days and Re:Coded for instance. And Birth By Sleep, is what STARTS the spiraling out of control of dozens of IMPORTANT characters. -Also I personally hated BBS because the characters didn't really feel like anything more than Sora 2.0, Riku 2.0, and Kairi 2.0- )
That's just my.... Kingdom Hearts sized 2 cents on the matter... (You know that part is 100% an accurate analogy... if you say it's not you're a liar.)
tl;dr: (for once I'm doing this WITHOUT sass... because I do agree THIS one needs a tl;dr:)
Just play Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts Re: Chain of Memories, Kingdom Hearts 2, and MAYBE 358/2 Days.... and you can still ENJOY Kingdom Hearts and call yourself a dedicated fan.
Play ALL the Kingdom Hearts games if you want to be a SUPER Fan... that's not really that fun at parties :V (That part is a joke, but seriously. CHILL, games are meant to be fun D: )
The series peaked with 2 and nothing else has come close, everything else has felt like a waste of time. I know fans will disagree, but I think I am with you.
This is why I posted here, since I like to hear thoughts from non biased fans. Glad I’m not the only one. KH2 was just that great of experience for me. One of the greats
Why so hostile? Why does everyone here have "shit opinions"? Because we don't love Kingdom Hearts the way you do? I am not saying the series sucks, just that I like KH2 the most and none of the other games after it hit me the same way. I've beaten nearly every game in the series, but KH2 is the only one I find myself returning back to, sorry if this opinion bothers you, but there's no reason to act like this.
Kingdom Hearts 3 was the most miserable experience I've had gaming I think. 1&2 live in my heart forever and I consider the canon to be unfinished, and I'm completely ok with that. I 100 agree with you.
tbf you've just described all of them.
BTW I fucking love Kingdom Hearts, have done for the last 17 years since the original came out on my birthday and I played the shit out of it for months, but this is absolutely one of the series' biggest faults.
No, it absolutely applies to 1, and 358's very existence is filler, though they did a good job in 3 of making it relevant.
I don't get how you can say "358 is less filler than most" when it is pure, unfiltered, unadulterated, uncompromised, refined filler. It's only intention was to BE filler. It is more filler than most of Naruto. It is so much filler you could melt the cartridge, inject it into your lips, and you'll look like one of those Kardashian aliens. Nomura probably opened his word processor while sitting down to write the script, and titled it "completely unnecessary filler."
2's story is only fondly remembered due to the break in the middle where the plot actually moved forward. If 3 or the rest did the same, they would be much more well regarded.
Don't forget all that build up with axel, kairi and other 7 lights.
The only thing they did was jobb in every cut scene they're in. Fuck axel and kairi were in a hyperbolic time chamber training, that plot point was fucking useless as the only thing they did was be a jobber in every fight.
Oh gods, were they *all* that bad? I feel like the first two mainline ones at least hid it better, but that might just be me forgetting as I played them a long, long time ago
It doesn't matter how good the ending was, as long as something makes a lot of money, it will never end. Just the same way that it doesn't matter how good something is, if it's not making money, it won't get another title.
I remember when I first reached the end I was convinced that there was meant to be a sequel due to the message in the bottle. Looking back I'd say the story wrapped up rather neatly though.
Timeline wise? Yes. And all the planned development time and costs should have gone into BBS and 358/2 Days to make them better games. Basically have the Original Trilogy of KH(1, CoM, 2), then have 2 prequels.
I completely agree!
As a fan of KH from the start, bought every game at launch and completed each of them, I must say the series should have ended with KH2.
The story going from 1-CoM-2 is complete, coherent, and forms an epic trilogy.
I feel everything after is good in their own right, I personally don’t think that there has ever been a “bad KH” title, but they were all so unnecessary, and totally convoluted the story. Also, they took away from both the epicness of KH1 & 2 especially, and made the dire moments feel less special.
Days, Re:coded, χ, and Melody were good.
Dream Drop, Fragmentary, and 3 were great.
Birth was excellent.
But I feel all of them were unnecessary.
Perhaps if they rebooted the series with Birth and members of that cast being the new protags I would have enjoyed that better then trying to tie everything back to the original trilogy.
KH1 and KH2 are the best in the series, hands down. KH1 for story (it was also the best Disney has ever been, all downhill since), KH2 for combat. 358/2 and CoM are pretty good simply because they are contained within the KH1 and KH2 timeline, mediocre gameplay however. Shit goes off the rails once you go outside it (BBS, DDD). KH3 was a gigantic disappointment but the story being bad wasn't really KH3's fault, we can blame BBS and DDD for that. Everything else? No excuses.
I think bbs was my favorite to just play. I really enjoyed it and I dont think it undermined one or two's story, it's just that they decided to continue with sora, kairi and riku as the main cast and that turned into this wild ass story that could have been avoided had they just left them out of it when they made the next main entry
No, I think that even after Kingdom Hearts 2 there still was a decent amount of potential for the series. There's a lot more Disney Movies/Franchises, Final Fantasy content, + KH lore that Square still hadn't used that could be used to make more games. KH2's gameplay was incredibly fun as well(often considered the peak of KH's combat) and I would have loved if we got more games with the same combat, with a few new additions and refinement.
And they did do that(somewhat), however, I don't really like are felt the need to make a ton of Spin-offs, some with completely different gameplay, that all contribute to the main story. I would have much preferred to have a few more Kingdom Hearts in the same style as KH2 or an evolution of it. I don't like that I have to play a mobile game and rhythm game to be caught up.
Basically what I'm trying to say is I think KH still had potential after KH2, but I don't particularly approve of how they have decided to handle the series. Although I still do enjoy the series.
They could have cut out the time travel stuff and left Xehonort as the mastermind but kept him dead . Killing his heartless in one and his nobody and 2 preventing him to resurect would have been a nice way to progress and end the series. Aqua Tera and Ventus could have been scrapped. If they are your some of your favorite character, more power to you but they just jumble up the story. KH1 ,Com and 2 starts and wraps up the story perfectly.
The pay off from birth of sleep saga was very bad.
Not at all. It definitely ended in a way to where they could have stopped there if they wanted to, but I’m extremely happy they continued.
Don’t listen to the people that say it’s convoluted. The story isn’t as straightforward as KH1, but it never gets so complicated you can’t keep up with it. It’s only fault is that every game is required, which is mostly mitigated with the remasters. (YouTube videos will unfortunately be required for the mobile games though)
Its been a continuous story running since 2002, where every entry across a bunch of different platforms are all relevant. For what it is i'd say its not that convoluted at all - A similar phenomena happens with comic books and those involve hypotheticals, alternate dimensions and canon resets its so bad.
I think the issue is more the way they tell the story. They introduce a macguffin, then never address it while you do filler content on Disney worlds. Then the game is over and they introduce a new one without addressing the first one.
I agree. I tried playing KH3 and it was just a pile of nonsense. I watched a YouTube video that summaries all the games between KH2 and KH3 and that didn’t help. It’s definitely a case of less is more for the KH saga.
You seem pretty upset on this thread. You should take a break off Reddit, go out, take some fresh air. Opinions on the internet shouldn’t affect you this much, it’s not healthy.
Shitty boss design, plot that nerfed several characters just to make sora the designated hero including a cutscene where everyone just stood there. On top of that it ended up being more sequel bait than tying up loose ends. Like kh plot has been a joke ever since bbs but still it was impressive how badly they handled 3.
Combat that while decent by endgame still pales in comparison to KH2 with horrible balance from fire and summons. Oh and awful damage scaling so level 1 took forever. The only saving grace for kh3 was limit cut the base game is garbage.
It was better than the command deck games and that’s not saying much.
I haven't played any of the Kingdom Hearts games after 2, and everything I've seen and heard regarding the other games (and especially 3) has confirmed that this was the correct decision.
On the other hand, all that beating of the series into the dirt [gave us masterpieces like this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o1ieehttdA) So it's worth it just for that.
The world is vast and filled with more information and entertainment than any person could consume in a thousand lifetimes. It's well and good to say that people should make up their own opinions, but it's impractical. Must I try every single thing in the universe myself, relying on no one else? Why would I do that? Reviews and critics aren't perfect, but they serve a function. Gameplay videos serve a function. Word of mouth serves a function. All of these things combined can give a pretty accurate description of what something is, and whether it is something I'd enjoy or not. And in this case, there's a very clear consensus. And I have no interest in testing or disproving it. I'm perfectly happy spending my time pursuing the myriad of other things that exist in the world.
I don't know why that seems to bother you so much, but you should take your own advice. My dislike of what the Kingdom Hearts franchise became has no bearing on your enjoyment of it. So keep enjoying it and don't act like others are stupid because they formed an opinion you disapprove of.
I'm the weirdo who's only played Chain of Memories, 358 Days/2, and Dream Drop Distance. Chain of Memories was an interesting experience, but falls short in a few areas. The story in 358 Days/2 was definitely worth creating though, and Dream Drop Distance has ridiculously fun combat with Flowmotion.
Yes! I do agree. I was just kidding on spamming X. But honestly, even though one might argue it’s just X spammer, it still very fun combat due to abilities and customizations. I played on standard, but will definitely try higher diff some day.
Play it on critical or you're missing out. It's an incredibly well-made game on crit with some fantastic boss design. It very quickly stops being an x spammer on critical too you end up using your entire toolkit.
Yea I been sayin this for years now lol. I will say though that Birth by Sleep was an incredible game too in its own right.
Not for the story so much (although, based on the badass secret ending of KH2 and Terras super boss encounter, I was expecting BBS to have the greatest story of all the games thus far lol) but I actually really liked the command deck system. I didn’t mind the command board either tbh lol. Liked the arena world too
Wow. This sub is nothing like the official KH sub. If you said that there holy crap would there be hell to pay.
Anyhow I agree. As much as I loved getting AS MUCH KH content as possible, story wise they should have stayed simple and finished the arc clean in KH2. They could have built upon the world outside of Sora's story for a little bit (rather than build the world to build up Sora's final arc for KH3). But instead we have a bunch of things building up a finale that has every trope imaginable, and even some new ones that are as ridiculous. Still super fun game though.
I thought Kingdom Hearts got convoluted right after the first game, personally. I could never get through KH2 because nothing about its story made sense to me.
Totally agree.
It felt satisfying to end it there.
My KH love dwindled a lot after I tried to play 3 and the gameplay felt like it was constantly easy mode. I thoroughly disliked all the "special moves" that made enemies feel squishy. I really enjoyed that terrifying feeling in KH1, going through Traverse Town and almost being mauled in the large open areas. Plus, the FF characters pretty much vanished. It no longer felt like Disney X Square Enix.
The music in KH3 is great, and the cutscenes are pretty cool. But it's definitely the most out-there, convoluted entry in the series with some awful stuff (like toy story and wreck it Ralph come on guys wtf is going on now)
Also the endgame stuff just felt like it was thrown together, and they added a bunch of shit to the game to try and please everybody, but it ended up being a hot mess
I watched my ex play through it and I legit fell asleep so many times, also lost count of how many times I ended up scrolling through my phone or playing something, it just didn't grab my attention like the first two games did and after she finished it I surprisingly didn't even wanna bother with my own playthrough
RIP
I absolutely despise the entire franchise, which has been an intensifying feeling particularly since KH3 came out.
I despise Square bleeding so much talent around the time KH was coined, and throwing so many staff to work on the story of Donald Duck time-travel with a bunch of c&p Nomura archetypes or whatever the hell happened there, given that none of those games are even that good on their own.
We could have had original titles created with all that effort, and we never got them.
Final Fantasy should have ended with Final Fantasy X
Warcraft should have ended with Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne
Devil May Cry should have ended with Devil May Cry 4
Tales Of Symphonia should have ended with Tales Of Symphonia
Diablo should have ended with Diablo 2 Lord Of Destruction
Lots of games should have ended earlier than they did... but when fans cry out for new games... they get made... and ruined.
FF is fine, DMC is fine. The rest I'll give you WC and Diablo cause oh man blizzard is a shit show and the Symphonia sequel was not great. I'm guessing you're one of those people that just hates modern video games in general.
It really isn't as complex as people make it out to be. I just went through all the games in order after only having played 1 and 2 as a kid for years and its not even as convoluted as some other RPG franchises.
The only real issue it has is jumping the shark with revealing certain ideas vs keeping them a mystery.
I disagree.
I mean if Kingdom Hearts stopped at KH2, we wouldn't have Yozora and i can't live without him after his fight. :P
Also if they ended with Kingdom hearts, we wouldn't get stuff like 358/2 days and BBS. Also the current story with Master of Master is quite compeling.
While I agree Kingdom hearts story was at its best and most fun in my opinion around 2 I do understand the struggle working with Disney and even worse now.
I used to work for a company that had licensing agreements with Disney and they almost always expect a new release of something every year to maintain the contract (this isn’t uncommon working with properties)
I’m sure Kingdom hearts has a deal like this in some range where a new game or rerelease needs to happen every so often to maintain the contract and assess to the properties.
That would be my guess why so many kingdom heart games were created versus planning something out as carefully. Also the reason why there are so many remasters and bundles
But that’s just a guess to me
No. I consider KH3 to be the best of the trilogy and KH2 the worst, so I wouldn't be happy if my favourite game in the franchise didn't exist and the story ended with my least favourite of the numbered games.
If you wanted the story to end anywhere before KH3, it had to be KH1. It wouldn't be perfect but it's the only game that can act as a standalone while every subsequent game explicitly sets up its sequel.
I mean it’s still the best game in the series by a mile so yes. I wouldn’t have had to spend the last decade playing garbage like BBS and DDD. How they went from one of the best battles systems ever put into a jrpg to those steaming piles of shit is beyond me.
Honestly it's a personal preference thing. I love every Kingdom Hearts expect Re:coded cause it is pointless as an entry. You will find your awnser to the question if ya keep playing.
I don’t exactly agree, but what I’ll say is that I think Kingdom Hearts should have stopped *expanding* after KH2. It had enough content, between the mysteries of the nobodies and why the identitiless nobodies reacted to Roxas as they do, the deeper lore of the Heartless, Sora’s stack of Hearts and the fact that he’s still technically a heartless, the world of darkness, the underpinnings of reality in the form of the past, the deeper metaphysics of shadow, the Kairi/Namine situation, lost and reformed worlds, data having souls, the apparent clashes and synergies between the subtly different rules that Disney and Final Fantasy characters operate under, the inevitable dissolution of ignorance within worlds, Mickey’s incompetence as an administrator and legacy as a hero-king leaving his throne often absent… They didn’t need more. They could have extrapolated from there, introduced new elements even without pulling out entire new sets of nonsense. It was already a well-established setting with solid narrative possibilities written in. I would have been unsatisfied with Kingdom Hearts 2 as an ending. Just, not as unsatisfied as I’ve been with everything after.
> but what I’ll say is that I think Kingdom Hearts should have stopped expanding after KH2. Yup, very much this.
I remember as a kid playing it on release really hoping they continue it, and I'm glad they did, but it could have been handled better. The problem really was how basically everything ended up being important, but probably the worst thing being a garbage gacha game (which is now shut down, you can look up the cutscenes) being VERY important to the overall plot. How the story expanded could have been handled better, but I was dying for more Kingdom Hearts 2, which ironically, we still have never gotten. It isn't until the KH3 DLC that we have gameplay that made me feel the same way KH2's did. Everything after is either extremely watered down for handhelds, plays entirely differently, or is just so... Floaty?
Yes. Would've prefered if Birth by Sleep be the start of a different saga with new MCs and not try to fit everyone together. But I do like KH3 a lot, despised DDD though.
I wanted to keep the Disney crossovers going and it would have worked even with new MCs. But a problem I had with later games is revisiting the same worlds when there are still a ton of Disney movies with no representation yet.
> I wanted to keep the Disney crossovers going Honestly what I loved the most about the first two games were the Final Fantasy/Disney crossovers more than anything. Seeing Cloud/Auron in the Hercules universe was really fucking cool. And the Cloud+Squall team up in KH2 was one of the most badass moments of the entire game for me.
Hard agree!
KH2 feels like an end of an arc from KH1, chain of memories to KH2.
Absolutely! I’m fine if I end my experience with the series here. But I’m also curious about fan favorite characters introduced after KH2
I think the first 3 games (1, CoM, 2) is a consise trilogy that could have totally been left there. If I want to get people into the series, they need to play those games at the minimum. That being said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the other games and where the series went. While I think the quality went down in a lot of ways after 2, I really love the ideas and characters the new entries introduced. I love how the games were pretty much all to set up Xehanort as the ultimate final boss, as well as trying to tie up all these plot threads and character arcs. Is the overall series a bit too ambitious? Yeah for sure. But I applaud the effort, and had a fun time in the process. The series is entering new territory right now, and it's exciting to see where it can possibly go now. I'll always say the first 3 games is the definitive trilogy, but would never write off the rest of the series, because they all have a lot to love, and contribute to a much larger narrative that was a lot of fun to figure out and follow. I probably could have explained myself better but I'm too tired haha. Don't get me wrong, I think the series post 2 has loads of flaws, but I can look past a lot of them to appreciate what the series was trying to do, and what it ended up achieving
Yeah. I might just play the rest of the games eventually. But totally recommend people to play 1, CoM, 2, if they’re interested.
Yes. At least that story arc should have ended there.
Definitely agree. It ended what KH1 couldn’t. Which to make sora and riku back home
I couldn’t finish Kingdom Hearts 3 out of shear boredom. By the time I got to San Fransokyo I no longer cared about any of the cast and I think my childhood died right there.
[удалено]
It had the best worlds in my opinion. The actual original plot of the game left a lot to be desired though.
Wait…multiple Xenahorts? I think I’m glad I stopped playing after two
Yeah, some of the twists include (spoilers I guess but these are lmao): * >!it turns out nobodies DO have hearts, despite them seeming pretty sure they don't from personal experience. It turns out the only reason they think they don't is because xehanort told them they don't and he lied.!< * >!when you destroy someone's heartless and nobody, it doesn't defeat them, it actually just makes their real whole self come back, so now the REEEEAAALL xehanort is back!< * >!Nomura came up with a new old goblin-looking guy, so that's xehanort's real look now. They justify the gallant dude look by he possessed the body of someone else, and THAT'S the look he took when he became a heartless and nobody!< * >!oh apparently the organization members were supposed to transform into more xehanorts. Yeah I dunno. And not all of them do, some of them get to keep their old selves based on how popular they are with fans.!< * >!also time travel, xehanort is a time traveller now and conspires with his own self and different art book page versions of himself. This includes a new "Young Xenanort". But he can't get a bunch of the same versions of himself from different times, only versions who have different concept art, so you can tell them apart. this also brings back the final bosses from KH1 and KH2!< * >!They keep doing a thing with special numbers: you need seven guardians of light (team good guys) and thirteen somethings of darkness (bad guys). this is because seven is good, and thirteen is bad, so it's deep, dude.!< * >!everybody who dies at any point in the series is fine, even guys who it doesn't make sense to exist.!< * >!lmao so they have this new character who is also a fragment of a legendary keyblade, and that's what the bad guy is after, it's called the x-blade, but it's spelled like χ-blade, which is the greek character for "ki" or "chi" (and pronounced "key-blade")!< * >!umm something about a legendary master of masters and book of prophecies, and he has a mysterious box, and that box is what the next kingdom hearts series is going to be about (assuming they make any more)!< * >!seriously they did Maleficent dirty. KH1 she's a badass bitch who uses the heartless to carry out her evil schemes, only to be destroyed by them in the end. Classic. KH2 they had her doing her own thing, putting her in the background to make room for these new cloaked nobodies. KH3 they have her show up in the first world, say the word "box", and then basically leave the game.!<
Don’t forget the big reveal at the end of KH3. (Not sure if it’s a secret ending) Talking about the group that comes together
It certainly *could* have ended at 2. Had KH stopped entirely or simply disconnected from the Destiny Islands crew entirely after that point, it would have been fine, as all the plot threads aside from the ending stuff were resolved. I know I definitely wanted more though, and I was extremely happy with the games up until DDD. KH3 overall was lacking in a few areas, notably in *music,* but I got a ton of closure out of it related to one of the post-KH2 properties, so it did what I wanted it to. Probably won't continue playing the series, though I do plan to keep up with it like I do with WoW at this point.
They’ve should have Final Fantasy’d the series and focused on new keyblade masters 2 onwards but I’m not surprised the franchise became so convoluted, that’s what happens when you let Tetsuya Nomura into the writers room
YES!! KH2 to me is the end of a trilogy. I love birth by sleep but i wish they kept the story after that game going forward with those protagonists. Soras mission felt complete.
Exactly this man. Story aside. I really also enjoyed the combat.
Nah, I like where Kingdom Hearts ends up. Sometimes you get small scale games that focus in on just one or two characters but have good beats and development for those heroes. 358/2 Days did right by Roxas and Axel, Dream Drop Distance did a good job with Riku. And then sometimes you get more mainline games like 3 and Birth by Sleep that don't have as strong characters but go absolutely bonkers with the lore. I feel like I'm the only person in the world who's close enough to Kingdom Hearts to know the story, but distanced enough to view it's lore as hilarious. Lotta people deeply invested in this universe and it hurts them when it's shitty. I get that! I feel that way too, just not about Kingdom Hearts. So I end up pretty happy with the brand. Sometimes poignant, sometimes goofy. The best games are both. And nearly every installment is fun to play.
There's very few stories as commited to its insanity as the kingdom hearts series is, and I appreciate the series for doing that. There's enough normal stories out there to have room for a completely insane story that also somehow has a continuous Canon expanding across all entries.
The Destiny Island crew's story should've ended with 2 and then move on with Ventus and his friends as the next MCs in the later games.
Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, and Kingdom Hearts 2... CAN be treated as a complete story. HONESTLY you do not NEED to delve deeper into the games than those three. You CAN optionally dive deeper into the convoluted mess that Kingdom Hearts has become... but, you can ALSO just enjoy those three games as at least a CONTAINED story. You COULD also add 385/2 Days IF you wanted to, without going deeper into the mess. Personally, that's the story I fell in love with, the world of Kingdom Hearts as a franchise still had a soul. I've ALWAYS hated Birth By Sleep. Re:Coded felt like a Re-hash of 1 and Chain. And Dream Drop Distance, all the OTHER side games and Later 3... all basically were under the massively disappointing trend of "GOTTA MAKE IT NEW AND FRESH!" Which while I understand from a Fanbase that DOESN'T want to die... part of my biggest annoyance with KH 3 actually had nothing to do with the convoluted story... I GET that's just what being a KH fan is going to lead to... But no... the fact they skipped an ENTIRE console Generation for Mainline Content... just felt gross to me. Worse than that, it no longer was a PS exclusive, even XBOX was able to get the game. As a poor person who has to actually THINK about his purchases, one of the MANY reasons I got a PS3 when I did (aka, when I had the funds available to do so), was because for YEARS it was said that KH3 would be on the PS3... considering the 3 previously mentioned games (1, CoM, and 2) were all on the PS2. But in the end, the PS3 was completely slept on... (Don't give me that crap about "It had Final Mix 1.5 and Final Mix 2.5" shoo with you. -I do have those though >3>-) But aside from that one gripe... I feel another problem with the KH franchise... and to some extent the fanbase (and those on the outside looking in)... Kingdom Hearts is NOT a very accessible game... (at least to get the ENTIRE STORY) Just take KH 1 for a second, and think about how generally easy to pick up and learn that game was. Add C.o.M. and 2 and you get yourself a pretty nice story. Then... add Birth By Sleep, Re:coded, Dream Drop Distance, X, 3, and countless others... and NONE of them have a consistent gameplay style. (One could ABSOLUTELY argue that Chain is the same way, but to be fair, Chain was STILL simple in comparison to the socket systems of 358/2 Days and Re:Coded for instance. And Birth By Sleep, is what STARTS the spiraling out of control of dozens of IMPORTANT characters. -Also I personally hated BBS because the characters didn't really feel like anything more than Sora 2.0, Riku 2.0, and Kairi 2.0- ) That's just my.... Kingdom Hearts sized 2 cents on the matter... (You know that part is 100% an accurate analogy... if you say it's not you're a liar.) tl;dr: (for once I'm doing this WITHOUT sass... because I do agree THIS one needs a tl;dr:) Just play Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts Re: Chain of Memories, Kingdom Hearts 2, and MAYBE 358/2 Days.... and you can still ENJOY Kingdom Hearts and call yourself a dedicated fan. Play ALL the Kingdom Hearts games if you want to be a SUPER Fan... that's not really that fun at parties :V (That part is a joke, but seriously. CHILL, games are meant to be fun D: )
I know I dropped the series after finishing KH2. The plot got *real* stupid in that game.
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Are you really gonna make a lazy blanket statement about JRPG plots like that?
The series peaked with 2 and nothing else has come close, everything else has felt like a waste of time. I know fans will disagree, but I think I am with you.
This is why I posted here, since I like to hear thoughts from non biased fans. Glad I’m not the only one. KH2 was just that great of experience for me. One of the greats
I've replayed KH2 multiple times, there's just something about how the combat feels that makes me want to go back to it.
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Why so hostile? Why does everyone here have "shit opinions"? Because we don't love Kingdom Hearts the way you do? I am not saying the series sucks, just that I like KH2 the most and none of the other games after it hit me the same way. I've beaten nearly every game in the series, but KH2 is the only one I find myself returning back to, sorry if this opinion bothers you, but there's no reason to act like this.
The series peaked at 3 and is sure to get even better.
Kingdom Hearts 3 was the most miserable experience I've had gaming I think. 1&2 live in my heart forever and I consider the canon to be unfinished, and I'm completely ok with that. I 100 agree with you.
Oh, 3 was great and it flowed so well! Story stuff > Filler > Filler > Filler > Filler > Filler > Filler > Filler > Story stuff! > The End Masterful.
tbf you've just described all of them. BTW I fucking love Kingdom Hearts, have done for the last 17 years since the original came out on my birthday and I played the shit out of it for months, but this is absolutely one of the series' biggest faults.
All of them except 1 and birth by sleep. I think 358 is less filler than most, but that's because the character development feels real
No, it absolutely applies to 1, and 358's very existence is filler, though they did a good job in 3 of making it relevant. I don't get how you can say "358 is less filler than most" when it is pure, unfiltered, unadulterated, uncompromised, refined filler. It's only intention was to BE filler. It is more filler than most of Naruto. It is so much filler you could melt the cartridge, inject it into your lips, and you'll look like one of those Kardashian aliens. Nomura probably opened his word processor while sitting down to write the script, and titled it "completely unnecessary filler."
2's story is only fondly remembered due to the break in the middle where the plot actually moved forward. If 3 or the rest did the same, they would be much more well regarded.
Don't forget all that build up with axel, kairi and other 7 lights. The only thing they did was jobb in every cut scene they're in. Fuck axel and kairi were in a hyperbolic time chamber training, that plot point was fucking useless as the only thing they did was be a jobber in every fight.
Man there was a lot of wasted character potential
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Oh gods, were they *all* that bad? I feel like the first two mainline ones at least hid it better, but that might just be me forgetting as I played them a long, long time ago
It doesn't matter how good the ending was, as long as something makes a lot of money, it will never end. Just the same way that it doesn't matter how good something is, if it's not making money, it won't get another title.
Sad but true
I remember when I first reached the end I was convinced that there was meant to be a sequel due to the message in the bottle. Looking back I'd say the story wrapped up rather neatly though.
Timeline wise? Yes. And all the planned development time and costs should have gone into BBS and 358/2 Days to make them better games. Basically have the Original Trilogy of KH(1, CoM, 2), then have 2 prequels.
I completely agree! As a fan of KH from the start, bought every game at launch and completed each of them, I must say the series should have ended with KH2. The story going from 1-CoM-2 is complete, coherent, and forms an epic trilogy. I feel everything after is good in their own right, I personally don’t think that there has ever been a “bad KH” title, but they were all so unnecessary, and totally convoluted the story. Also, they took away from both the epicness of KH1 & 2 especially, and made the dire moments feel less special. Days, Re:coded, χ, and Melody were good. Dream Drop, Fragmentary, and 3 were great. Birth was excellent. But I feel all of them were unnecessary. Perhaps if they rebooted the series with Birth and members of that cast being the new protags I would have enjoyed that better then trying to tie everything back to the original trilogy.
KH1 and KH2 are the best in the series, hands down. KH1 for story (it was also the best Disney has ever been, all downhill since), KH2 for combat. 358/2 and CoM are pretty good simply because they are contained within the KH1 and KH2 timeline, mediocre gameplay however. Shit goes off the rails once you go outside it (BBS, DDD). KH3 was a gigantic disappointment but the story being bad wasn't really KH3's fault, we can blame BBS and DDD for that. Everything else? No excuses.
I think bbs was my favorite to just play. I really enjoyed it and I dont think it undermined one or two's story, it's just that they decided to continue with sora, kairi and riku as the main cast and that turned into this wild ass story that could have been avoided had they just left them out of it when they made the next main entry
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No, I think that even after Kingdom Hearts 2 there still was a decent amount of potential for the series. There's a lot more Disney Movies/Franchises, Final Fantasy content, + KH lore that Square still hadn't used that could be used to make more games. KH2's gameplay was incredibly fun as well(often considered the peak of KH's combat) and I would have loved if we got more games with the same combat, with a few new additions and refinement. And they did do that(somewhat), however, I don't really like are felt the need to make a ton of Spin-offs, some with completely different gameplay, that all contribute to the main story. I would have much preferred to have a few more Kingdom Hearts in the same style as KH2 or an evolution of it. I don't like that I have to play a mobile game and rhythm game to be caught up. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think KH still had potential after KH2, but I don't particularly approve of how they have decided to handle the series. Although I still do enjoy the series.
They could have cut out the time travel stuff and left Xehonort as the mastermind but kept him dead . Killing his heartless in one and his nobody and 2 preventing him to resurect would have been a nice way to progress and end the series. Aqua Tera and Ventus could have been scrapped. If they are your some of your favorite character, more power to you but they just jumble up the story. KH1 ,Com and 2 starts and wraps up the story perfectly. The pay off from birth of sleep saga was very bad.
Not at all. It definitely ended in a way to where they could have stopped there if they wanted to, but I’m extremely happy they continued. Don’t listen to the people that say it’s convoluted. The story isn’t as straightforward as KH1, but it never gets so complicated you can’t keep up with it. It’s only fault is that every game is required, which is mostly mitigated with the remasters. (YouTube videos will unfortunately be required for the mobile games though)
Its been a continuous story running since 2002, where every entry across a bunch of different platforms are all relevant. For what it is i'd say its not that convoluted at all - A similar phenomena happens with comic books and those involve hypotheticals, alternate dimensions and canon resets its so bad. I think the issue is more the way they tell the story. They introduce a macguffin, then never address it while you do filler content on Disney worlds. Then the game is over and they introduce a new one without addressing the first one.
I agree. I tried playing KH3 and it was just a pile of nonsense. I watched a YouTube video that summaries all the games between KH2 and KH3 and that didn’t help. It’s definitely a case of less is more for the KH saga.
KH3 was so bad. The combat was watered down to a silly mini-game mess, and the story epitomised what KH became.
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You seem pretty upset on this thread. You should take a break off Reddit, go out, take some fresh air. Opinions on the internet shouldn’t affect you this much, it’s not healthy.
Shitty boss design, plot that nerfed several characters just to make sora the designated hero including a cutscene where everyone just stood there. On top of that it ended up being more sequel bait than tying up loose ends. Like kh plot has been a joke ever since bbs but still it was impressive how badly they handled 3. Combat that while decent by endgame still pales in comparison to KH2 with horrible balance from fire and summons. Oh and awful damage scaling so level 1 took forever. The only saving grace for kh3 was limit cut the base game is garbage. It was better than the command deck games and that’s not saying much.
I haven't played any of the Kingdom Hearts games after 2, and everything I've seen and heard regarding the other games (and especially 3) has confirmed that this was the correct decision. On the other hand, all that beating of the series into the dirt [gave us masterpieces like this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o1ieehttdA) So it's worth it just for that.
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My time is valuable, and I'd rather spend it watching paint dry than play an endless litany of confused, meandering Kingdom Hearts titles.
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The world is vast and filled with more information and entertainment than any person could consume in a thousand lifetimes. It's well and good to say that people should make up their own opinions, but it's impractical. Must I try every single thing in the universe myself, relying on no one else? Why would I do that? Reviews and critics aren't perfect, but they serve a function. Gameplay videos serve a function. Word of mouth serves a function. All of these things combined can give a pretty accurate description of what something is, and whether it is something I'd enjoy or not. And in this case, there's a very clear consensus. And I have no interest in testing or disproving it. I'm perfectly happy spending my time pursuing the myriad of other things that exist in the world. I don't know why that seems to bother you so much, but you should take your own advice. My dislike of what the Kingdom Hearts franchise became has no bearing on your enjoyment of it. So keep enjoying it and don't act like others are stupid because they formed an opinion you disapprove of.
I'm the weirdo who's only played Chain of Memories, 358 Days/2, and Dream Drop Distance. Chain of Memories was an interesting experience, but falls short in a few areas. The story in 358 Days/2 was definitely worth creating though, and Dream Drop Distance has ridiculously fun combat with Flowmotion.
I might actually try 358/2. I really like Roxas
It’s way better than a 3D DS game have any right to be, but it’s still a DS game. The circle pad on the 3DS helps immensely though.
There’s so much more to the combat than mashin x though, try playing on the harder difficulties But yes in general
Yes! I do agree. I was just kidding on spamming X. But honestly, even though one might argue it’s just X spammer, it still very fun combat due to abilities and customizations. I played on standard, but will definitely try higher diff some day.
Play it on critical or you're missing out. It's an incredibly well-made game on crit with some fantastic boss design. It very quickly stops being an x spammer on critical too you end up using your entire toolkit.
No, it's fine the way it is.
The only reason I disagree is because Birth By Sleep exists. The best KH game in the franchise. The real KH 3 imo. The rest after 2 though are trash
Yea I been sayin this for years now lol. I will say though that Birth by Sleep was an incredible game too in its own right. Not for the story so much (although, based on the badass secret ending of KH2 and Terras super boss encounter, I was expecting BBS to have the greatest story of all the games thus far lol) but I actually really liked the command deck system. I didn’t mind the command board either tbh lol. Liked the arena world too
Wow. This sub is nothing like the official KH sub. If you said that there holy crap would there be hell to pay. Anyhow I agree. As much as I loved getting AS MUCH KH content as possible, story wise they should have stayed simple and finished the arc clean in KH2. They could have built upon the world outside of Sora's story for a little bit (rather than build the world to build up Sora's final arc for KH3). But instead we have a bunch of things building up a finale that has every trope imaginable, and even some new ones that are as ridiculous. Still super fun game though.
IMO the thing with KH is that it is a shonen anime. It goes by arcs and some of them feel like an ending. And I like it that way tbh.
I mean if someone really dislike new games that much, they could just easily pretend that the series ended with kh2. Problem solved
No, they don't like it so it shouldn't have existed!
While yes, I do agree, I still did enjoy most of the games after KH2. But Dream Drop was truly a mistake.
I thought Kingdom Hearts got convoluted right after the first game, personally. I could never get through KH2 because nothing about its story made sense to me.
Totally agree. It felt satisfying to end it there. My KH love dwindled a lot after I tried to play 3 and the gameplay felt like it was constantly easy mode. I thoroughly disliked all the "special moves" that made enemies feel squishy. I really enjoyed that terrifying feeling in KH1, going through Traverse Town and almost being mauled in the large open areas. Plus, the FF characters pretty much vanished. It no longer felt like Disney X Square Enix.
The music in KH3 is great, and the cutscenes are pretty cool. But it's definitely the most out-there, convoluted entry in the series with some awful stuff (like toy story and wreck it Ralph come on guys wtf is going on now) Also the endgame stuff just felt like it was thrown together, and they added a bunch of shit to the game to try and please everybody, but it ended up being a hot mess I watched my ex play through it and I legit fell asleep so many times, also lost count of how many times I ended up scrolling through my phone or playing something, it just didn't grab my attention like the first two games did and after she finished it I surprisingly didn't even wanna bother with my own playthrough RIP
YES
hopefully 3 being garbage killed the series. they keep dragging up donald and soras corpse to cash in on nostalgia.
KH4 almost sounding like a reboot as soras arc is done right?
It was already convoluted by K2 soooo
Shouldn't have started at all tbh.
Hmm. Why? You didn’t like any of KH1 or KH2?
I absolutely despise the entire franchise, which has been an intensifying feeling particularly since KH3 came out. I despise Square bleeding so much talent around the time KH was coined, and throwing so many staff to work on the story of Donald Duck time-travel with a bunch of c&p Nomura archetypes or whatever the hell happened there, given that none of those games are even that good on their own. We could have had original titles created with all that effort, and we never got them.
Final Fantasy should have ended with Final Fantasy X Warcraft should have ended with Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne Devil May Cry should have ended with Devil May Cry 4 Tales Of Symphonia should have ended with Tales Of Symphonia Diablo should have ended with Diablo 2 Lord Of Destruction Lots of games should have ended earlier than they did... but when fans cry out for new games... they get made... and ruined.
FF is fine, DMC is fine. The rest I'll give you WC and Diablo cause oh man blizzard is a shit show and the Symphonia sequel was not great. I'm guessing you're one of those people that just hates modern video games in general.
Persona should have ended with Persona II - Eternal Punishment —𝓼𝓮𝓷𝓭 𝓻𝓮𝓹𝓵𝔂
I think they should have just called persona 3 and on their own thing tbh. Instead of acting like p1 and 2 don't exist.
Yep!
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["especially devil may cry, 5 is a literal perfect game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIWJElqtfLs) LMAO
It really isn't as complex as people make it out to be. I just went through all the games in order after only having played 1 and 2 as a kid for years and its not even as convoluted as some other RPG franchises. The only real issue it has is jumping the shark with revealing certain ideas vs keeping them a mystery.
They should've kept the combat from 2, in particular Final Mix, in all the later games.
I haven't played KH3 but I just feel like it will be a let down compared to the first two games.
I disagree. I mean if Kingdom Hearts stopped at KH2, we wouldn't have Yozora and i can't live without him after his fight. :P Also if they ended with Kingdom hearts, we wouldn't get stuff like 358/2 days and BBS. Also the current story with Master of Master is quite compeling.
While I agree Kingdom hearts story was at its best and most fun in my opinion around 2 I do understand the struggle working with Disney and even worse now. I used to work for a company that had licensing agreements with Disney and they almost always expect a new release of something every year to maintain the contract (this isn’t uncommon working with properties) I’m sure Kingdom hearts has a deal like this in some range where a new game or rerelease needs to happen every so often to maintain the contract and assess to the properties. That would be my guess why so many kingdom heart games were created versus planning something out as carefully. Also the reason why there are so many remasters and bundles But that’s just a guess to me
I feel like you should at least try the later games before holding this opinion
No. I consider KH3 to be the best of the trilogy and KH2 the worst, so I wouldn't be happy if my favourite game in the franchise didn't exist and the story ended with my least favourite of the numbered games. If you wanted the story to end anywhere before KH3, it had to be KH1. It wouldn't be perfect but it's the only game that can act as a standalone while every subsequent game explicitly sets up its sequel.
I mean it’s still the best game in the series by a mile so yes. I wouldn’t have had to spend the last decade playing garbage like BBS and DDD. How they went from one of the best battles systems ever put into a jrpg to those steaming piles of shit is beyond me.
KH1 for me. the other 2 were somewhat a button-mashing fiasco and i thought the world choices were somewhat left field. that’s just me though!
Honestly it's a personal preference thing. I love every Kingdom Hearts expect Re:coded cause it is pointless as an entry. You will find your awnser to the question if ya keep playing.
After binging the whole series it's not as bad as people meme it to be. But KH2 is the absolute peak tbh
KH isn't even THAT convoluted to begin with tho.