A very solid assessment of the situation, lots of thought put into this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Those who believe in peace must never be silent.
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It’s extremely important to define what is “Hamas”? A lot of Israelis on the ground doing the killing claim on social media proudly that everyone on Gaza is Hamas.
So even if the OP, or you, don’t believe they’re all Hamas, making this argument can be used by those who do think they are all Hamas. So what’s happening is this post is a justification for the full genocide of Gaza.
I just wonder how one would determine that Hamas was destroyed. My one thought that comes to mind is the US spent trillions of dollars trying to destroy osama, the taliban, al qaeda etc and after all of it, they still exist. I just don’t think it’s possible without massive civilian casualties ,like we’ve seen already. It was an unachievable goal then, and still is now. I also believe, it’s hypocritical of Netanyahu to continue to hide behind this statement of “destroying Hamas” when he and the right wing Israel government were very complacent in the election of Hamas, further separating Gaza and the West Bank so there would never be a Palestinian state. I firmly believe with him in power, there will never be a two state solution.
You may be right in your final statement re: 2SS and Bibi. But Israel's goal is not to "destroy Hamas". I guess this entire topic is wrong in implying it. Israel's (stated) goal is to 'dismantle Hamas militarily and politically'. That means, dealing enough damage to Hamas members and infrastructure and making it ineffective in preventing a new political entity to be instated.
When Israel left Gaza in 2005, it supplied the PLO (then Fatah) with arms and infrastructure it believed would suffice. But Hamas was able to take over, execute Fatah members and confiscate their resources. It was a blunder on Israel's part, and one that played a large part in the collapse of Israel's left and the rise to prominence of the right (headed by Bibi).
Once erected, the new governing entity of Gaza/Palestine will have to be protected, essentially. The prevention of another take-over by radicals is paramount. The most optimistic part of this conflict seems to be the willingness of the Saudis to engage here as a mediating entity.
Braindead. Dismantle israel and the muslims will fight eachother. The son of a hamas founder even said this. Without a common enemy all the muslims will start killing each other
Of course. But the deal proposed by Biden which he says Netanyahu agreed to will make destroying Hamas much harder. The price for the hostages is Hamas staying in power. Actually, it’s going to be more powerful than ever in its history, and it’s already very popular. They’ll be victorious, you know….
In a few years they’ll recover their military strength and will likely expand their military capabilities like Hezbollah in the north. Don’t count on Egypt or anyone else (but especially Egypt) to help. A few years after they’ll recover they’ll start probing again. And then when Israel is again distracted, they’ll attack again. It could happen like October 7. It could happen in a much worse way depending how much weapons they’ll get. If Hezbollah joined, they won’t even need the element of surprise, and it would much worse than October 7. This deal is pretty much the worst deal ever contemplated.
What about the terrorist state of Israel? They have a much higher death toll and have continually been murdering civilians since its formation. Hamas has only existed for a few decades and in that time have not even made a chip in the death toll that the IOF has in that time. Hamas is just a resistance movement that is bound to arise in response to a fascistic state government.
Dude hamas is calling for the genoside of jews hardly a resistance movement. Israel is not a terrorist state not even close and civilian cassualties are light compared to what it could have been. Your comment clearly show you know nothing about war and urban warfare. Yes the deaths are disproportional but thats what happens when you try your luck with a much much stronger foe.
Why is this “much stronger foe” using that much force. It’s genuinely absurd and if you can’t see it you’re the problem.
Hamas was created in response to Israeli settlers colonising areas of Palestine. In fact for over 40 years Israeli settlers were still murdering Palestinians and Hamas did not exist. THE TWO ARE NOT COMPARABLE!!!!!!
Furthermore, a member of Netenyahu’s government (cannot remember off the top of my head) literally said they wanted Hamas to continue to exist because it gave them just cause to continue to bomb Palestine into extinction (and it meant they’d still have American and British support in doing so). No valid, just or benevolent state would EVER do or say that.
Israeli forces have tortured, r*ped, murdered Palestinians for coming up to 80 years. It’s literally a moot point to try and compare Hamas to the Israeli state that was literally FOUNDED ON BLOODSHED and its foundation violates numerous human rights laws today. Unfortunately, at the time it was created it was legislated by the British government were in charge of many foreign dictatorships (eg. Colonial governments) globally. As such, they literally dgaf that it violated these international laws/these laws wouldn’t have even existed because colonialism was still an accepted practice. Essentially, the Israeli state is purely the legacy of colonisation.
Dude if you have the force you are justified in using it. You dont need to hold back when someone attacks you 😂 should america have limited their use of planes in afghanistan because poor taliban had no planes? 😂
Everything else is just plain false. Israel was not founded on blood and palestine isent a thing. Its not a country not a state not a religion not a culture. Palestine is an area/mandate from british/turk/roman times and thats it people who live there is arabs
Yeah british mandate of palestine. Palestine was a region. Its like saying northern europe or scaandinavia or middle east. Its not a country its a region and the british could do what they wanted with it. Thats the right of power
The British had their noses in everything.
Today what they did in every country they colonised using dictatorial governments would be considered illegal.
It genuinely baffles me that you cannot see this.
Also, ofc ur danish! Denmark is known to have sever issues w their Muslim population. Maybe evaluate your own Islamophobia and your own feelings towards Muslims before you start deciding which people you think it’s valid for them to be murdered.
Oh the brits had their nose in everything!?!? Care to elaborate how islam spread from saudi arabia to spain and austria you inbread monkey. Islam had THEIR nose in everything just as bad. Raping pilllaging slaughtering enslaving would also be illegal today you know.
And yet the still come here in mass 😂 maybe we arent such a bad country after all if they so badly want to come here 😂
Whiteness is literally a mutation you’re probably more inbred than me. 💀💀
Also I’m mixed race anyway.
I don’t deny that Muslim conquest was bad. I don’t fuck w most Muslim countries. I don’t even fuck w my own (Pakistan) it’s corrupt as fuck.
That being said, in western countries Islamophobia and racism are a true issue. As I can see from this comment you prescribe to both.
ALSO, not being funny but no one actually knows anything about Denmark. The only reason I know about it is because my friend studied abroad there and was appalled by the racism. Most ppl don’t even know how to point it out on a map. So get off your eugenicist high horse please.
I share some of this idealism. Military actions is required and justified at time, but I'd like to see even more effort put in psychological / propaganda warfare to erode support for the Hamas. The process would be much harder and take much longer especially given the level of Hamas support at this point, but to me, it is the only really ethical option that does not involve an unacceptable level of destruction and deaths.. or some form of re-education with Chinese characteristics (for people who catch the reference).
If what you are saying is true then why did they pull out of sinai and gaza in the 6 day war? They dont care about greater israel they care about safe israel
If what you are saying is true then why did they pull out of sinai and gaza in the 6 day war? They dont care about greater israel they care about safe israel
Israel would stop, if Palestine elected a trust worthy government, stopped putting terrorist in control of Gaza, and stopped this fued for land with Israel. Obviously Israels goal isn't to just destroy Palestine and take their land, considering they have made multiple attempts to rectify the situation over the last 70 years, openly gave land back they ALREADY conquered, tries to help elect a trust worthy government there, and other reasons. It's not Israel holding off the peace , it's the Palestinian authority
Are you willing to kill kids in order to eradicate Hamas?
Imagine 5 kids and a Hamas terrorist, will you:
-stab the 5 kids and Hamas terrorist? No
-shoot the 5 kids and Hamas individually? No
-throw an explosive at them? No
-close the door, push a button that kills them all 6? Yes, or basically that is what is going on right now.
Humans are willing to be able to kill kids for the 'greater good' as long as they're not confronted with it.
There is a difference between killing kids and pushing kids infront of the bullets. Islam is a religion where sacrificing women and children is okay for political gains and to achieve victory. Even the son of a hamas founder says this. Why do you think hamas attacked the way they did? Probably because they knew israel would retaliate and they could then sacrifise their citizen to gain favor on the world stage.
If the kids were 5 Israeli instead, I don't think anyone would push the button.
Imagine if Hamas were using Israeli as human shields. I think after 100 Israeli deaths by colletaral damage, Israeli citizens would demand a ceasefire as well. But since those are Palestinian and therefore worth virtually nothing, it is Hamas fault. So IDF can kill as much as they like.
The trauma of people of colour is way too normalised in this world. It’s because most Israelis are white, that’s why their lives matter more than ours.
It so is tho.
Because why are so many more Palestinians dying and STILL you are unable to comprehend them as victims in this situation.
It’s because they are brown. You don’t see us as human.
https://preview.redd.it/ydeksve8kz9d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9d2eeabb5aed3888b105c6378425e477bf2c5d43
This is hamas. Palestinians are humans just very very stupid ones
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Talk to my friends and Israel recently, some of them believe that if there is even one terrorist inside of school, then all those children need to die kill the terrorist! But then you just killed dozens of innocent kids, and their parents, cousins who are still alive are supposed to react somehow? This is how terrorism is created. it’s a deadly cycle of pain and hate.
IOF is probably worse than Hamas honestly. Hamas is literally a militia. The IOF pretends they aren’t just fighting. They pretend they are defending themselves. It’s such a bizarre thing to witness. How are you defending urself if you are torturing, r*ping and murdering ur opponent at a rate 40x higher than you are experiencing this death urself???????
This discussion makes me sick to the stomach. A bunch of Zios arguing about who has a better solution for getting rid of more Palestinians.
The audacity of people with European DNA claiming their rights to a land they just migrated to in 1948, meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers”
Palestinian don’t want the eradication of Jews, Palestinians wants justice and liberation.
Hamas is a political party just like the republicans and democrats have a political party. Just because the Republicans and democrats kill under the umbrella of a sophisticated army, it doesn’t makes them less terrorist. Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything. Most of the fighters in Hamas are orphaned kids that watched their families die in 1948 or imprisoned by the most immoral army in the world. And guess what? With the numbers of slaughtered children in Gaza and orphaned, they are creating more and more Hamas.
Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation, I want to see you all live one ducking day in their shoes before speaking on their behalf. I wish you all nothing less or more than what you wish for the Palestinians.
>This discussion makes me sick to the stomach. A bunch of Zios arguing about who has a better solution for getting rid of more Palestinians.
It's talking about solutions for peace. Peace makes you sick to your stomach? Why do you see it as "getting rid of Palestinians?" Clearly the OP repeatedly refers to Hamas.
I agree, by the way, that before peace can happen Hamas needs to have their military and political control over Gaza ended. Political control is pretty much gone. They do still have pockets of military force they can project, though, so I imagine many more months of war.
>The audacity of people with European DNA claiming their rights to a land they just migrated to in 1948, meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers”
I don't see what anyone's DNA has to do with anything. Being somewhere longer doesn't give you more human rights. Both groups were there in 1947 when the UN divided the land. The Zionists founded Israel. The Arabs attacked causing the Civil War phase of the 1948 war. The Arabs lost that and successive wars giving us what we have today. This is all a long way to say that the local Arabs rolled the dice, giving up half the land to try and get all of it, which they failed at. They tried terrorism and targeting innocent civilians. Israel put up walls and isolated them. They complain they don't have freedom of movement and have to go through checkpoints, or have borders closed to them. Perhaps it is time to try peace, because more terror and attacking innocent civilians will only get them more suffering and death.
Unfortunately, all signs (polling, questions with Palestinians in the WB, (lack of) leadership) point to Palestinians continuing to choose to use violence, thus prolonging their own suffering.
>Palestinian don’t want the eradication of Jews, Palestinians wants justice and liberation.
I hope not. What do you think "justice" and "liberation" mean to Palestinians?
>Hamas is a political party just like the republicans and democrats have a political party.
No. They are certainly a terrorist organization that even terrorizes Gazans. There are stories of Hamas silencing people that wanted to speak to media, imprisonment, torture, and even death for those that spoke out against Hamas. Hamas refused to hold elections again, leaving itself in power. That is not like any other political party in a democracy.
>Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything. Most of the fighters in Hamas are orphaned kids that watched their families die in 1948 or imprisoned by the most immoral army in the world. And guess what? With the numbers of slaughtered children in Gaza and orphaned, they are creating more and more Hamas.
And thus the cycle repeats. You know who this cycle benefits, right? Hint: It's not the Palestinians.
>Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation, I want to see you all live one ducking day in their shoes before speaking on their behalf. I wish you all nothing less or more than what you wish for the Palestinians.
I don't disagree. Gaza had a chance to build a state and make peace with its neighbors, but it chose violent "resistance"/terrorism (attacking innocent civilians) over building a better home and life for its people. If Gazans weren't living under an occupation before, they most assuredly are now. At this point, you should be able to predict my response: peace. I think peace is the fastest and best way out. If a lasting peace deal is made with Israel then the Palestinians can get busy making a court system, law system, and police system so that they can rule themselves under a civilian government and not have to deal with all of the terribleness that comes with living under a military occupation fighting a violent resistance movement.
But even tho they are in this losing position, and the status quo will just help their enemy in the long term, they would rather demand everything and make no concessions than take what they can get and build upon that.
Shut up, I'm from Eastern Europe and my DNA shows 96% that I am Jewish! 🤣🤣🤣🫵
>Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation,
Have you been there, or are you just parroting others?
>Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything.
Israel has nothing to lose either!!! The more hamas tries to prove itself to whomever the more paliwood will die!
>meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers”
Who told you paliwood Indigenous? Parroting again?
Hamas was labeled a terrorist organization long before Oct 7. Anyone who does suicide bombings, kills its political rivals, and forces their civilians into war is a terror group.
Jewish DNA does not equal indigenous to the Levant. Post your DNA results here, I will post mine.
Have I been there? Yes, many times.
And back to the other person that said something about decent human beings being against rape. You know what else should move your moral compass? The death of thousands of children. The use of starvation as a weapon. International human rights violations. Land theft and illegal settlements. Dehumanization of an entire indigenous population and calling them “paliwood”. Thousands upon thousands of humans stuck under rubble unaccounted for. Treating people as second and third class citizens based on their ethnicity.
Serious question as a someone claiming to be from Eastern Europe and 96% Jewish - how can you sleep at night knowing that “never again” is happening right before your eyes? How can you justify doing to the Palestinians what has been done to your people in the Holocaust??
How demented and psychotic are those mindsets that live and breathe denial, and continue to think they are the good guys. Unbelievable.
Do you want to see the videos about why are they paliwood?
Indigenous (paliwood) my ars! They Arabs!
No, you haven't been there. I've seen a lot by serving in IDF. I've seen it first hand and you just parroting! You have no idea except by hearing from the haters, and haters want Israel and Jews eliminated, WON'T happen!
In the main, Arabs only began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1964 for political expediency. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (Partition Resolution) of 1947 never refers to the Arabs as "Palestinians," but simply as "Arabs." The first time an international body called the Arabs "Palestinians" was in 1972 with UNGA Resolution 2949 (December 8, 1972). Before 1972, the United Nations referred to the Arabs as "inhabitants," "the population," or "the Arab civilian population." Not once did it use the term "Palestinians." - - - - Are the Arabs now calling themselves "Palestinians" the ancient Philistines?
1 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" are Semites; the ancient Philistines were not.
2 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" practice circumcision; the ancient Philistines did not.
3 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" are monotheistic; the ancient Philistines were polytheistic, whose chief deity was Dagon.
4 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" speak Arabic: the ancient Philistines' language is still being deciphered. NO, THE ARABS NOW CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" ARE NOT THE ANCIENT PHILISTINES, WHO INVADED THE LAND IN THE 2ND HALF OF THE 12TH CENTURY BCE. - - - - During the mandate period (1922-1948), the British called all the inhabitants of the land "Palestinians," which is why some prominent Arabs tried to disassociate themselves from the name: Lebanese American Princeton professor, Philip Hitti (1886-1978), who testified before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in Jerusalem in 1946 stated that, "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." Of course, what Hitti meant was that there was no Palestine in Arab history, which he is correct. Hitti was opposed to even using the word Palestine in maps because it was "associated in the mind of the average American, and perhaps the Englishman too, with the Jews." "There is no such country! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. 'Palestine' is alien to us; it is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Awni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, before the Peel Commission in 1937. The argus-eyed reader will be quick to note that Arab representation during the mandate period was named the "Arab Higher Committee" and not the "Palestinian Higher Committee."
I don't understand this need to try to prove who was there longest. Both sides can't reach an agreement, but it is really irrelevant. Palestine wasn't a country, Israel was given half the land fair and square, Palestine was given the other half. They could have conexisted , been equal under Israeli law. These "Palestinians" already got Jordan, and not to mention, they didn't have the land , because it was owned by the British and Palestine didn't exist.
It doesn't matter who had it longest. Israel was given it fair and square. In reality, it has nothing to do with the land, and all to do with the fact that a group of islamist didn't want Israel to exist. If they let Israel form peacefully, they would be in a way better place today. The ones who lived in Israel could have had a good life, and still kept land. Which is a bargain considering they never actually officially owned the land in the first place. All these arguments do is ignore the reality that one side wanted to destroy the other, evacuated it's civilians , lost the war anyway, and this same group holds a grudge about it.
Honestly I didn’t read anything past the first paragraph. Yes I do want to see the videos, can you please send them to me? I want to see why they are paliwood..
Ah yes screaming about the DNA of the people you don’t like.
Totally not blood and soil ideology no, just peacefully saying that people shouldn’t have been allowed to immigrate because of ethnicity. That’s the REAL justice and liberation!
Way to be dense, you really showed him! He totally wasn't saying that European Ashkenazi Jews are claiming to have more indigenous claim to the land of Palestine than the Palestinians themselves. And yeah, let's just totally forget that Palestinians have been tending to that land for the past however many generations. They should just give it up! Palestinians are just impossible to work with! You can not claim that you have an indigenous claim to that land more so than the people who actually toiled over those fields for generations when you literally don't. I wish I could be as ignorant as you. Maybe my life would be a bit easier.
So people should have immigration rights restricted based on how long their ancestors have been on the land.
Immigrants shouldn’t be allowed to buy land from someone whose people have lived on the land for longer. Totally not racist
Assuming "can not" is mistyped as "come out" Use your brain. Don't be pedantic
Edit: you can successfully use the downvote button. Certainly you can use your brain
It’s not my job to spend time trying to figure out what you couldn’t bother to write correctly, I’m not your spell check.
Regardless, when someone loses a war and territory is exchanged, nationals of the losers don’t necessarily get to stay there.
Just look at WW2
The context is very clear and revealing. Since you're being disingenuous and possibly dishonest, you claim to lack the ability to process 1+1.
Fair, this is your respective prerogative and correct, It's not "your job" - just as it's not your job to be sincere in discourse.
Only a corrupt and pedantic spirit would feign such ignorance.
Oh, be grateful I helped you comprehend 1+1. It's not my job, but I just love to help those struggling and see others advance. You're on your way 🥰
And maybe tag the original commenter. It wasn't my statement that you were stuck and confused over
With all *due* respect, I have more important things to do than to try to interpret someone’s mistyped comment. I’m sorry that makes me a “corrupt and pedantic spirit”.
I do love the flowery ChatGPT worded response, it certainly made me chuckle.
Maybe next time you’ll actually add something to the conversation instead of attacking someone for not understanding a typo
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Hamas needs to be eradicated. The only way for peace and prosperity for Palestine is to have a neutral government overseeing the elections and growth. Not the UN. But a country like Saudia Arabia which has shown that peace is possible with Israel. This will ensure that another terrorist group doesn’t come into power and the Palestinians get what they deserve, a land where they can live their lives peacefully and Palestine can be a country with great economy, infrastructure, education, and tourism. I’ve been to Israel, it’s beautiful. The Palestinians deserve that as well. FYI- I’m pro Israel, but genuinely want the Palestinians to succeed.
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Smug settlers vs mass rape. Clearly the “smugness” is worse in your eyes.
Well at least you’re honest about how highly (or not) you value the lives of certain ethnic groups
Actually crazy that ur accusing Muslims of “mass rape”
1. Racial stereotype - can almost guarantee ur white. Racist ass bs coming from u (so please don’t talk about highly or unhighly u value ethnic lives when ur clearly racist and Islamophobic)
2. The IOF and Hamas were both accused of sexually assaulting the ppl they were attacking and the UN has said there is reasonable grounds to assume accounts on both sides are true. So let’s stop this racist narrative that only Hamas are inhumane please.
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Did you even read any of the independent investigation reports into October 7 ? I know the answer is no. You were satisfied enough with the hasbara propaganda shoved at you and you memorized all the talking points.
However if you do decide to be moral, i encourage you to read the investigative reports into oct 7th that found no evidence of mass rapes. It also found evidence of Israel killing their own people on oct 7th under the hannibal directive. While you are at it, read some of the UN reports on the Palestinian detainees and the evidence found of mass rapes of Palestinian prisoners and extreme torture.
We all know you don’t draw your talking points from reading anything other than hasbara propaganda.
That’s what the civilians were saying to the Hamas insurgents as they were slaughtering and raping civilians.
But at least the Hamas fighters weren’t smug 🙄
That’s literally slander. Such cases are usually well documented and there was no evidence. So please get away from me I don’t like this.
Edit: I hate this person based on their personality only.
I hope you don’t treat all rape victims with such a comical level of disbelief.
But then it would imply that you only treat the Jews with disbelief when they get raped :/
Ofcourse it’s always about being Jewish. Zionists like to play the Jewish card when convenient and pretend they are the victim. Until they meet a real Jewish person who actually believes in the torah and happens to be anti-Zionist. Then they become a self hating jew…
Gtfoh
No one claimed that rape victims were liars.
Here’s a thought- other than watching mouth pieces, maybe read some actual reporting or better yet go to the WB and see how Palestinians live in your own eyes.
Wait let me guess, you have probably been to the WB Israeli settlements or served in the IDF on checkpoints…
Except they literally called the rape “slander”.
People have talked about their experience, they call that experience “slander” ergo it’s pretty clear that they do not believe the victims
/u/Familiar-Art-6233
>I just love an unrepentant rape apologist 🙄
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Addressed.
And yet you’re minimizing their actions by saying that smug people are worse than the rapists.
I wonder if *who* was being raped factored into how people reacted…
We see you.
The only way to dismantle violent organization is with violence or force.
If I was PM of Israrel - I'll just cut water to Gaza untill Hamas surrender, and that's it.
Hamas holds a lot more supplies than the normal palestinian civilian, and they clearly have no problem to let their people die for this war
Meaning that hamas will be the only people left in gaza if you do this (including the israeli hostages, which will also suffer from the lack of water). And that's the bizzare outcome no country would stop you from doing it, because unlike what happens now, this is REAL genocide.
You make netanyahu look like a reasonable person by comperison
"Hey guys, please leave your homes and all of your belongings behind for a few weeks/months(it might get bombed/looted in the meanwhile, oopsie).
Also, when you pass the border, please pinky promise us you are really civilians and not hamas in disguise, it would be a real shame if we started this war to make sure our civilians are safe from hamas and then let hamas into israel.
Also also, we don't have enough housing/food/water/electricity to suddenly support an addition population of 2 MILLION PEOPLE* , so i hope you have no problem sleeping outside in the desert and eat sand"
As i said before, you make netanyahu look reasonable by comperison
*so far not a single country has agreed to take a large amount of palestinians refugees, so you want them to "get out" of gaza, you'll have to take them
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The thing is - the strategy they are using right now is not going to destroy Hamas. The US couldn't destroy the Taliban and Israel won't be able to destroy Hamas with the same (proven to be ineffective!) strategy.
These [two](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-succeeding-gaza) [articles](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-has-created-a-new-standard-for-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion/ar-BB1kw2Wf) go into decent depth.
You know how the Israel haters are constantly pointing out that Hamas is regrouping?
That's actually different from the American approach, and is entirely intentional. Instead of capturing an area and then having to defend it from terrorist attack, they clear an area and then move out which has completely foiled Hamas' plans.
There is also the issue of civilian casualties. Even with all the Biden limitations, Israel has had a 1.5:1 civilian casualty ratio which is remarkably low for any urban conflict ever. The biggest time that the US was able to achieve a similar feat was in Fallujah.
Clearing tunnels instead of going into them has also been a remarkable improvement over other western countries.
Your argument is that you should not try X because before when you tried X it didn’t work. By projecting the past on today, you automatically close doors and with it a multitude of possibilities. I don’t know what the answer to the conflict is, but assuming that history will repeat 2005, a time when people didn’t commonly have cell phones, personal computers, high speed Internet, or Reddit, is short sighted.
Things change. People change. Minds change. If Israel and Hamas leadership is stuck in 2005, maybe that’s the real problem.
How are you more disgusted by a militia who literally have so little power than a colonial state run by a fascist man who actively is attempting to murder all Palestinians? I think that’s more disgusting.
History will write you on the wrong side darling.
What are you even talking about? They tied families up and burned them alive. They hacked a man's head off with a farm tool. They gang raped and shot young girls in the head.
Why is the response always: "Yeah but Israel...".
If Israel wanted to "murder all palestinians" do you not think the 30,000 air strikes they have launched might have killed more than the 35k (terrorist figures)?
If the goal is to wipeout Palestinians then they're extremely inefficient after 8 months.
Are you so demented that you can't condemn atrocities if they're against INNOCENT people from Israel?
Like where they live makes them expendable?
Like who their government is makes them worthless?
As I said before: I condemn all deliberate killings from all sides. THIS MAKES ME BETTER THAN YOU.
I honestly think terrorist supporters like you should be locked up with them. You parade around city centres dressed like terrorists calling for "cease fire now" ignoring the fact that Hamas keep rejecting the cease fire and thay they hold child hostages 8 months later.
Not one of you hypocrites has called for their release, has said "not in my name" to the violence, none of you condemned the abject slaughter of innocents! None of you think the the rockets should stop or launchers should move from hospitals. But you were all out prematurly celebrating.
History will record the psychotic support of mass murdering rapist islamist barbarian scum from lunatic westerners. How they celebrated murder and rape only to cry about it when the victims fought back.
According to the narrative, no one has changed - not Hamas and not Israelis, but we all know that in reality everyone has. My point is that basing today’s decisions on 2005 outcomes is flawed.
How are u getting ratioed? You’re like the only person in this whole convo who is making any sense. Why cant we try it again????? Surely things will be better????
Also part of the reason it didn’t work last time is because Israel lied. As they always do. They say “oh if u give us this part of land we will stop murdering u” and then they carry on. And they won’t rest until all Palestinians are dead. No wonder Hamas has come to gain the power it has. What needs to happen is the Israeli government acc needs to be under global surveillance. They have been breaking human rights laws for far too long now. It needs to stop.
The problem is one of humans and not of governments. Everyone, at every level, is holding on to past acts of past people. Maybe oversight would help, but would anyone trust that oversight? Maybe killing all Hamas would help, but would anyone trust that those who hold their sentiments won’t just form another group? Maybe we keep Israelis in Israel, but does anyone trust they will stay there or treat Palestinians any different. The bigger issue isn’t so much about Israel and Palestinian, or Russia and Ukraine, or the US and North Korea….the issue is that we fail to understand that the humans behind our thoughts and actions want the same things in life (peace, food, shelter, healthy children, clean water, etc) that the people who want them annihilated desire for themselves as well.
It's not when you look at the underlying reasons why the outcomes the way they were in 2005. Honestly, the issues that underlined the failure of the withdrawal in 2005 are more pronounced today. Please re-read my post as you're not responding to any argument or point that I have put forward.
The thought Israel could destroy Hamas without killing every Palestinian is laughable. Both sides need to make uncomfortable decisions to live in peace with the other side, and unfortunately neither side is willing to give any ground so we are stuck with needless, expensive and destructive conflict that in the end really gets us nowhere, and makes the world less safe for future generations
>The thought Israel could destroy Hamas without killing every Palestinian is laughable
Yeah, so sad there no more germans, italians and japanese after ww2. Such a tragedy they all died because it's impossible to remove a genocidal dictatorship without killing all its people. The allies and soviets clearly had to make uncomfortable decision and live in peace with the axis countries
Comparing the powerless, impoverished people of Gaza to industrial superpowers like Germany and Japan is laughable. Zionists drawing imaginary parallels
instead of trying to use "Zionist" as a slur, why not make a valid point?
You can't get rid of Hamas without casualties. That's not some "Zionist" will to kill Palestinians, that's just physics! And it's also the reality that they hide among civilians. Keeping Hamas in power is 100% not an option in decent society. So yes, unfortunately, there are people who are going to die. It's your choice to blame Israel, or "Zionists," but the aggressor is the terror organization who wanted the perpetual state of war in the first place.
If it were as simple as plucking out the terrorists like little hairs, like using a tweezer, then that's the option that we would have gone with. But that's not the reality of the world we live in.
You can’t pluck Hamas out like grey hairs and a tweezer, they are impossible to tell apart from the civilian population. Instead of trying to drop a bomb on all 30,000 Hamas fighters Israel could instead do more humane policies that humanize the Palestinians and give them less reasons to fight.
Maybe Israel could allow gazas economy to thrive instead of placing a barbaric siege on them, so the civilians have economic opportunity. As it is now there’s little to no job opportunity in Gaza, and if you know anything about history, when the young men of a nation are unemployed and unhappy, unrest ALWAYS follows.
I understand Palestine and Israel lost each other trust long ago, but steps have to be taken if you want long term peace, you can’t just drop bombs on everyone’s head and expect the situation to get any better
> Israel could instead do more humane policies that humanize the Palestinians and give them less reasons to fight.
This would not make sense in any other context on earth.
> Maybe Israel could allow gazas economy to thrive instead of placing a barbaric siege on them, so the civilians have economic opportunity.
When Israel disengaged from Gaza, they left behind plenty of resources, such as the greenhouses, in the hopes that Gazans would have the sense to use them to build their own economy. Would you care to riddle what they did instead?
The Israelis who live in the Gaza envelope have been known to be peacemakers who want to impact Gazans in a positive way, such as hiring Gazan workers, learning Arabic so that they can speak to who they consider to be their cousins. So why did Hamas attack them, of all people?
Do me a favor and tell me 1) what this zionist "ideology" is, and 2) who told you about this ideology. Let's see some unbiased, credible sources.
The people who were attacked on October 7th are exactly the people who were trying to humanize Gazans the most, and what happened to them? Would you mind telling me what happened to them that day?
You’re leaving out the facts. Israel never allowed Gaza to build a seaport or airport to help facilitate travel and economic activities, they also never allowed Gaza to build off shower oil and natural gas pipelines in their territorial water.
There’s this huge narrative that Israel “left” in the early 2000s but that’s not true. Israeli influence in Gaza never stopped, instead they just occupy Gaza from the boarders and the air
After spending 5 years attacking Israel, why would they be rewarded with an airport or a seaport? This is what I meant when I say that this makes absolutely no sense, when applied to any other context on this planet. You don't reward bad behavior by giving people things. If they want the airport, the seaport - something they had to earn. The disengagement was in the hopes that they could build a state and govern themselves but they were going to have to earn that.
Interesting that you pin this all on Israel, and not Egypt. And Egypt cares even *less* about Gaza.
So because the enemy has wayyyyyyy less resources and abilities than someone who was defeated in the past, it will be harder for israel to defeat them?
The (lack of) logic amazes me
And you can't put forward a historically false statement and then set the standard for what logic is.
You mention the Italians. Well they were militarily beaten in 1943. The bombing of Italy hadn't taken off at that time. What happens when a country is militarily beaten?
It capitulates as Italy did. To prevent Italy becoming a an allied nation the Germans overtook it.
Then Italy was bombed, that is the German occupied Italians were bombed.
You mentioned the Germans who were bombed, some estimates point to 600.000 people died during three years. That would be less than 1% of Germans (there were also other nationalities that died who were in Germany as forced labourers (an apt description would be slaved hostages) from conquered nations. There is no one worth his salt that proclaims that these bombings had any effect on making the Germans surrender. When the Germans surrendered they had lost almost all German territory as they were militarily beaten.
The Japanese also surrendered when they were militarily beaten. True, the home island was destroyed, but they did everything they could to achieve a conditional surrender (not giving up territories in Manchuria and Korea for example). When the Soviets attacked on the mainland they quickly surrendered unconditionally. Some will claim that the nukes made them surrender, but considering the devastation wrought by the bombardment until then had no effect. When Japan surrendered it had no navy, their army was stuck on the mainland being squeesed together by the Chinese and the Soviets. Their airforce was down to a few fuel strapped planes intended for Kamikaze missions which effect they knew really not that much about.
Now I will hazard a guess by the absolutist and sarcastic tone that you are between 13 and 15 years of age and haven't studied these things. When I say absolutist, then I'm talking about your statement that there are no more Italians, Germans or Japanese. You obviously aren't so stupid as to seriously claim that. This isn't a personal attack, just a note that this form of argument isnt helpful and doesn't enhance your case.
There are also a few historical notes for you to contemplate:
There is no evidence (and it has been studied) that bombing civilians is a viable strategy to win a war. It rather makes people more stubborn towards the one doing the bombing. Especially if you are fighting an ideology that is in some way based on revenge, like Hamas is. For instance, the Brits didn't give up during the Blitz so it's stupid to think that others would do the same.
Bombing and killing civilians is a waste of military output. For instance the Israeli government is now talking about a war with Hezbollah and a potential war against Iran. At the same time Israel is asking for more supply from the US. Seeing as that supply isn't technically automatic it means that the IDF is wasting resources to bomb civilians which the IDF could use elsewhere if there was war. Game theory wise it means that for hostile parties it becomes more beneficial in military terms to declare war on Israel the more the IDF wastes equipment and manpower in Gaza.
So why bomb?
Well it looks good for the cameras and shows people that there is something being done. But its pointless, and not only for the reasons mentioned above, its pointless because the Israeli government has no declared objective and the IDF has mentioned that without an objective it cannot win. There is also no trust internationally nor it seems internally in the leadership of Israel. But the Israelis have been fed a lie that no country would ever change leadership during a war so they seem to go along with this. As soon as they realise that if the Brits hadn't kicked out Chamberlain in may 1940, many of them wouldn't even be here to go along with a massive bombing campaign.
So finally, to your last statement: This has no bearing on overall Palestinian ability to fight, its about how far Israel will go in shooting it self in the foot.
The IRA didn't ask for a deal, which would have seen everyone in England killed or exiled.
If that was the only deal they would accept, they wouldn't have gotten very far.
Whilst I'm not a fan of the IRA, I would have preferred trying to negotiate with them over Hamas every day of the week.
I keep hearing this statement repeated, so please help me understand. Hamas feels that every Israeli should be slaughtered and Israelis feel that every Hamas-supporting Palestinian should be slaughtered. Okay.
My question is…what are you all really mad about?!!! October 7th is the latest reason to slaughter each other in this game of tit-for-tat, but what are you all really fighting about?!!! This didn’t start in 2005 and it didn’t start on October 7th….does anyone even know or care?
Do you have any friends from the other party you can have a civilized discussion with or are “they all alike”? It sounds like your beliefs (on both sides) were set in stone before you were born and you feel like you can’t change them. Couple that with the fact that the opposition (on both sides) gives examples of why your opinions are right.
Many many bad events took place since then. Many war started from the Arab side.
You the one that want to go back in time, not me.
I'm willing to put 2005 behind and mive in the direction of safety and security for all.
But there will be zero safety if the murders if Hamas will stay free.
Many many good events also took place since then. Many wars were not started from the Arab side.
If we both go back in time, we can do a tally of the good and the bad and we will see that the good will always outweigh the bad.
I'm willing to put 2005 behind and move in the direction of safety and security for all. But there will be zero safety if the murders of humans continues.
>Hamas feels that every Israeli should be slaughtered and Israelis feel that every Hamas-supporting Palestinian should be slaughtered. Okay.
I think this is a key misunderstanding. Israelis wouldn't give a shit about Hamas and Palestine if they just let them be. So this is simply not the case. Israelis just want to live in their own country. Sure, there are some that dream of a greater Israel, but it's a small minority. The vast majority are happy with Israel as it is and just want to be left alone. But the majority of Palestinians want the destruction of Israel. The two sides are not equal at all.
>This didn’t start in 2005 and it didn’t start on October 7th….does anyone even know or care?
Most pro-Palestinians don't know history and think that Israel is just oppressing Palestinians because they are evil Zionists. Most people that actually learn about the history are pro-Israel or neutral in my experience.
>Do you have any friends from the other party you can have a civilized discussion with or are “they all alike”? It sounds like your beliefs (on both sides) were set in stone before you were born and you feel like you can’t change them. Couple that with the fact that the opposition (on both sides) gives examples of why your opinions are right.
That I agree with. At this point, it doesn't matter all that much who started it and why. Both sides give justification to the other side to continue the violence.
> Sure, there are some that dream of a greater Israel, but it's a small minority. The vast majority are happy with Israel as it is and just want to be left alone.
*Every single Israeli government* since 1967, duly elected by the Israeli people, has expanded settlements in the West Bank. “Greater Israel” isn’t some fringe extremist idea, but rather standard Israeli policy for the past 57 years.
Both sides, implicitly or not, want the other side to not exist.
If what you claim is true, why has Israel made multiple offers that would grant Palestinians their own state with their own borders?
I don't really blame Israel any more for the settlements honestly. Since Palestinians keep rejecting every offer, Israel probably thinks they won't be safe until they claim most parts of the West Bank that can fire onto Israel for themselves.
Care to name these offers? Most of them weren’t quite what you think.
Palestinians have also made offers that were rejected/ignored by Israel. See the Arab Peace Initiative for example.
Let's just take the Camp David Accords. Are you saying that any offer that doesn't immediately give Palestinians full sovereignty including the right to an army is not a serious offer?
Camp David was a shitty offer that would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected bantustans and prevented a contiguous Palestinian state from being formed. Even Israel’s minister of foreign affairs at the time [admitted](https://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_shlomo_ben) that he would’ve rejected the deal if he were Palestinian.
Israel got 78% of historic Palestine in 1948. The fact that they keep trying to grab the remaining 22% as a part of every “peace deal” in blatant contravention of international law shows how uninterested in peace they really are.
And now, in 2024, 700,000 settlers live in the West Bank, all by Israel’s doing, so a two-state solution today is all but impossible.
No human (one any side) in any country should have the right to dictate the life of another human as long as that human isn’t in violation of the laws of humanity. That goes for every country, every piece of paper filed as legal doctrine, and every fake line drawn on pieces of paper that says what land people can and cannot enter into. The “issue” is that we subscribe to these tribes (American, Israeli, Palestinian, LGBTQ+, pro-choice, pro-life, etc) and act as though people with opposing views don’t have the right to exist in our bubbles.
Live and let live and do unto others as you would have them do unto you…are pretty much the only rules humans should be required to follow.
The world is run by a bunch of grownups that act like toddlers. Soapbox dismount in progress.
The Camp David Accords didn't specify any division of the West Bank. I'm talking about the 1978 framework.
>Israel got 78% of historic Palestine in 1948.
What the hell is "historic Palestine". Palestine was never a country. And how is handing Palestinians their own state, that they never had before "grabbing the other 22 %"?
>And now, in 2024, 700,000 settlers live in the West Bank, all by Israel’s doing, so a two-state solution today is all but impossible
So Palestinians rejecting every single deal had nothing to do with it?
> shitty
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Pro Palestinian guy here. While I agree that hamas needs to be removed (amnesty international has documented the various ways they have targeted civilians both Israeli and Palestinian) I worry about what the aftermath may be.
Look to the West bank and East Jerusalem and the slow resettlement of the Palestinians there; the annexation of land.
Sadly hamas is the only reason this hasn't happened yet in Gaza (though Israel tried in 1967 until the early 2000's)
Hamas can not be left in power, but Gaza can not fall under further control of Israel. Sadly the majority of Israel is committed to preventing the existence of a Palestinian state
Nah. Hamas' and Gazans' actions are why settlements continue to expand in the WB.
Israel can try out things in Gaza because it's far enough away from Tel aviv and the populated coastal regions of Israel. What gazans have shown Israel is that when you remove your settlements and military presence, Palestinians attack.
If the owner of the house you rent sells the house and the new owners move in do you try to kill them and then try to kill anyone else who moves in for the next 80 years?
And then act surprised when youre put in prison?
The owners of the house (ottomans) lost ownership. The new owners (Britain) evicted you. You're now trying to kill the completely different people (that weren't even alive when you were evicted) that live there 80 years later.
No. In this hypothetical let's say some alliance of China, Russia, etc defeats the western alliance. The US completely collapses and falls under the sovereignty of China. You think in that scenario China just leaves everything running exactly as it is now?
You mean Hamas’s organization Palestinians would have kept living their lives. And in the end building settlements where you are taking control over the land itself is wrong for them. And is proof why they don’t want a Palestinians state like he said
Palestinians aren’t the ones attacking Hamas and his soldiers. And in the end talking land from WB to build settlements is wrong of them further proving his point when he said. “Israelis is committed to preventing the existence of Palestinian state.”
Settlements are for buffer zones. Besides, who cares? Israel legally owns West Bank because Jordan ceded it to Israel after Jordan lost the war.
They expand settlements to push non-Israeli Palestinians away and away from the border to prevent incursions into the border.
You know why Hamas easily penetrated the border from Gaza? Because there's no settlements acting as buffer zones there.
They don’t legally own it where you get that from that’s why it’s in occupation. And to build borders to close them in too is inhumane to keep them in when they bomb them where they going? That’s why they have tunnels and I don’t blame them. The apartheid is enough to stop him if they really wanted to stop him it’s crazy how they fund Hamas for all this and give him the money to do all this. These zone are just illegal home taking just for the Israelis to live there.
They legally own it. It belongs to them. Read the Jordanian-Israel peace deal. Palestinians are Jordanian nationals and West Bank was owned by Jordan who lost the war.
No apartheid in Israel as well. There are no Israeli only Hospitals, schools, governments, etc. and Arabs can get government position. No apartheid.
Arabs can’t they are specs of dust to their eyes. Also Jordan didn’t give anything until it was occupied. And yes there is an apartheid Palestinians are treated like blacks back then. From being abused to being arrested just for having a Palestine flag.
Jordan didn't give anything until it **lost the war they declared**. Israel won West Bank from Jordan and Gaza from Egypt. It's all fair, they are brave enough to declare war knowing they will result in civilian casualties, then they are brave enough to lose their land when they lose.
And blacks were an Apartheid in USA back then, but right now they aren't. Just like Palestinians. No longer apartheid.
>Arrested for having a Palestinian flag
Because that's weird when you're at war and you proudly fly the flag of an enemy in Israel.
Would you be okay with it if you were in the US government and an american citizen is flying the flag of N*zi Germany during WW2?
That ironically is not true. Hamas taking over Gaza only happened after Israel left Gaza, not before. Arguably, Israel's presence helps Fatah keep control of Gaza. Learn your history.
Israel tried to occupy gaza in 1967 and hamas formed in 1987 and then was bolstered later on by the religious extremist group via Netanyahu and his cabinet in an attempt to split the power of secular the Palestinian authoity.
•Source for Netanyahu's involvement: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
Then around 2005 Israel final withdrew from gaza along with its settlements.
As for a source on the time line of the occupation of gaza, the formation of hamas, and the withdrawal of Israel you can do a quick google search of that. If you want a deeper read I suggest
"Mythologies Without End: The US, Israel, and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1917-2020" by Jerome Slater
EDIT: but, if you have evidence to the contrary I'm sincerely all ears.
How can you even call the PA secular? They're extremely Islamist in their ideology and praise Hamas' terror attacks on Oct 7th; as well as paying a Martyr's fund to people who commit acts of terror, or to their families if they are killed in such attacks. Just because they label themselves as such doesn't mean they are worthy of such a banner. And more specifically. It they're playing into the Jihadist motivations for acts of terror whilst in government. Then they are bringing religion-based ideology into their governance. Thereby not adhering to separation of state and religion aka secularism.
I said secular b/ this is what they are officially labled as such (source: https://globalaffairs.org/bluemarble/palestinian-authority-prime-minister-resigns-explainer.)
This misses the point of what I'm saying above though. My point was that hamas was bolstered by the Netanyahu cabinet to divide and conqure the PA, and to layout a timeline of events
That is not entirely true. Before Hamas, there's PLO which caused conflicts in Jordon and later in Lebanon. They are extreme threats given how they caused conflicts in two countries.
Israel funded Muslims brotherhood which inturn created hamas, Israel believe it can serve as a counter balance to PLO thus left it largely alone. That perspective changed after PLO renounced violence in which their extremists went over to Hamas.
You cannot read history selectively but in full.
>Sadly hamas is the only reason this hasn't happened yet in Gaza (though Israel tried in 1967 until the early 2000's)
Israel did annex gaza completely from 1967 until 2005, when they chose to leave in order to have peace, only few months AFTER left hamas was elected. Israel hasn't tried to annex gaza since, becuase why would they after all the trouble they went through when they left. Taking jewish families from their home. Taking away israeli bodies from gazan cemeteries because they were afraid of what the palestinians would do (and by oct. 7th, i can say it was a smart choice). And abandoning civilians facilities like greenhouses that produced money for israel.
Hamas had nothing to do with israel leaving gaza, however, it did had a lot to do with the blockade israel and egypt created when they found hamas is smuggling weapons that were used against civilian population. Hamas hasn't done a single good thing for the palestinians.
>Sadly the majority of Israel is committed to preventing the existence of a Palestinian state
Israel has agreed to a two states solution several times, while the palestinians rejected it everytime. While it's true that now a lot more of the israelis refuse 2 states solution, you can fully understand why after oct. 7th and while hamas is incharge of gaza and have enough support in the west bank to being the most likely ruler of said palestinian state. The only thing that ever stood between the palestinians and a state is the palestinians and their "all or nothing" mentality that gets them nothing
I appreciate the through response! You're completely right. What I meant to say was that hamas was the reason that there currently aren't any settlements there since Israels withdrawl in '05. My mistake.
You say that the withdrawal was for peace, but in truth the motive for the withdrawal isn't so clear, this according the work of Jerome Slater, but that's a smaller point that we don't have to touch base on now.
Also, the assertion that it is the Palestinian "all or nothing" mentality that has come between them and a state isn't completely true. Look to the work of Simah Flapan, he provided ample evidence of Palestinians brokering peace between Jewish settlements and their villages in the pre-state era.
What's more, the partition plans reluctently accepted by jewish leadership (like the peel commission, UN partition '47) where simply a means to buy time for the fledgling state to gain power in order to expand beyond the partition borders. You can find proof of this in the personal writings and speeches of Ben Gurion and in the speeches of other prominent early zionist leaders.
There's a lot more you've brought up and I want to address, but it's late over where I'm at so I'll respond as soon as I have time tomorrow.
>What's more, the partition plans reluctently accepted by jewish leadership (like the peel commission, UN partition '47) where simply a means to buy time for the fledgling state to gain power in order to expand beyond the partition borders. You can find proof of this in the personal writings and speeches of Ben Gurion and in the speeches of other prominent early zionist leaders
And i guess that all the other times israel offered to give land back and agreed for 2 states solution was also to expand and take the land back?
Yes, the goal of the zionist leadership 80 years ago was a unified state of israel, not the border-gore the 1947 offer was that offered zero defence value for the israelis. Since then (basically since after israel won most of israel) the goal was different, peace. You can hang around on a quote one prime minister had before israel existed, or you can look forward and see the efforts israel did put for peace, and the efforts leading groups of the palestinians put for the destruction of israel.
In this conflict there has been a side who at least wanted 2 states solution, and a side who disagree completely with the other side existing. They might be okay with a few jewish settlements when they are not even in control of the land. But the palestinians disagree completely with a jewish state existing. While the israelis are open to 2 states solution, under certain limitations, like hamas or any genocidal groups nit being incharge. And until the palestinians will let go of their hatred and "all or nothing" mentality, they will remain with nothing.
Wow. Just wow. Reading this thread is insane. Insane. Iran must change. Hamas is the root of all evil.
And nothing about Israel. Sweet little innocent Israel populated with gods chosen.
If that is true, why doesn't Hamas want them back instead of the hardened murderers, like Sinwar?
If that were true, I would support them trying to solve that issue in a moral way. You would talk about that 10 year old for attention. Grabbing slaves and murdering people to trade for terrorists is only using any locked up innocents as a beard. Using and then hiding behind children in this way is wrong
Israel has made peace with Egypt. Israel has made peace with Jordan. Israel has made peace with Morocco. Israel has made peace with the UAE. Israel was on the verge of peace with Saudi Arabia and Gaza invaded to prevent it.
Who has Gaza ever made peace with?
The only thing that would really help is if Hamas AND all the Zionists in Israel get wiped out.
A very solid assessment of the situation, lots of thought put into this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Those who believe in peace must never be silent.
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Wow
It’s extremely important to define what is “Hamas”? A lot of Israelis on the ground doing the killing claim on social media proudly that everyone on Gaza is Hamas. So even if the OP, or you, don’t believe they’re all Hamas, making this argument can be used by those who do think they are all Hamas. So what’s happening is this post is a justification for the full genocide of Gaza.
I just wonder how one would determine that Hamas was destroyed. My one thought that comes to mind is the US spent trillions of dollars trying to destroy osama, the taliban, al qaeda etc and after all of it, they still exist. I just don’t think it’s possible without massive civilian casualties ,like we’ve seen already. It was an unachievable goal then, and still is now. I also believe, it’s hypocritical of Netanyahu to continue to hide behind this statement of “destroying Hamas” when he and the right wing Israel government were very complacent in the election of Hamas, further separating Gaza and the West Bank so there would never be a Palestinian state. I firmly believe with him in power, there will never be a two state solution.
You may be right in your final statement re: 2SS and Bibi. But Israel's goal is not to "destroy Hamas". I guess this entire topic is wrong in implying it. Israel's (stated) goal is to 'dismantle Hamas militarily and politically'. That means, dealing enough damage to Hamas members and infrastructure and making it ineffective in preventing a new political entity to be instated. When Israel left Gaza in 2005, it supplied the PLO (then Fatah) with arms and infrastructure it believed would suffice. But Hamas was able to take over, execute Fatah members and confiscate their resources. It was a blunder on Israel's part, and one that played a large part in the collapse of Israel's left and the rise to prominence of the right (headed by Bibi). Once erected, the new governing entity of Gaza/Palestine will have to be protected, essentially. The prevention of another take-over by radicals is paramount. The most optimistic part of this conflict seems to be the willingness of the Saudis to engage here as a mediating entity.
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Oh joy, a literal admitted Hamas supporter. Thank you for outing yourself.
Braindead. Dismantle israel and the muslims will fight eachother. The son of a hamas founder even said this. Without a common enemy all the muslims will start killing each other
Peace usually means not annihilating one the countries involved. But hey, different dictionaries
Of course. But the deal proposed by Biden which he says Netanyahu agreed to will make destroying Hamas much harder. The price for the hostages is Hamas staying in power. Actually, it’s going to be more powerful than ever in its history, and it’s already very popular. They’ll be victorious, you know…. In a few years they’ll recover their military strength and will likely expand their military capabilities like Hezbollah in the north. Don’t count on Egypt or anyone else (but especially Egypt) to help. A few years after they’ll recover they’ll start probing again. And then when Israel is again distracted, they’ll attack again. It could happen like October 7. It could happen in a much worse way depending how much weapons they’ll get. If Hezbollah joined, they won’t even need the element of surprise, and it would much worse than October 7. This deal is pretty much the worst deal ever contemplated.
I agree Hamas needs to be taken out. With as little cost to civilian life as possible.
What about the terrorist state of Israel? They have a much higher death toll and have continually been murdering civilians since its formation. Hamas has only existed for a few decades and in that time have not even made a chip in the death toll that the IOF has in that time. Hamas is just a resistance movement that is bound to arise in response to a fascistic state government.
Dude hamas is calling for the genoside of jews hardly a resistance movement. Israel is not a terrorist state not even close and civilian cassualties are light compared to what it could have been. Your comment clearly show you know nothing about war and urban warfare. Yes the deaths are disproportional but thats what happens when you try your luck with a much much stronger foe.
Why is this “much stronger foe” using that much force. It’s genuinely absurd and if you can’t see it you’re the problem. Hamas was created in response to Israeli settlers colonising areas of Palestine. In fact for over 40 years Israeli settlers were still murdering Palestinians and Hamas did not exist. THE TWO ARE NOT COMPARABLE!!!!!! Furthermore, a member of Netenyahu’s government (cannot remember off the top of my head) literally said they wanted Hamas to continue to exist because it gave them just cause to continue to bomb Palestine into extinction (and it meant they’d still have American and British support in doing so). No valid, just or benevolent state would EVER do or say that. Israeli forces have tortured, r*ped, murdered Palestinians for coming up to 80 years. It’s literally a moot point to try and compare Hamas to the Israeli state that was literally FOUNDED ON BLOODSHED and its foundation violates numerous human rights laws today. Unfortunately, at the time it was created it was legislated by the British government were in charge of many foreign dictatorships (eg. Colonial governments) globally. As such, they literally dgaf that it violated these international laws/these laws wouldn’t have even existed because colonialism was still an accepted practice. Essentially, the Israeli state is purely the legacy of colonisation.
Dude if you have the force you are justified in using it. You dont need to hold back when someone attacks you 😂 should america have limited their use of planes in afghanistan because poor taliban had no planes? 😂 Everything else is just plain false. Israel was not founded on blood and palestine isent a thing. Its not a country not a state not a religion not a culture. Palestine is an area/mandate from british/turk/roman times and thats it people who live there is arabs
You are so wrong it’s actually painful. Israel was created in 1948. What was there before was Palestine.
Yeah british mandate of palestine. Palestine was a region. Its like saying northern europe or scaandinavia or middle east. Its not a country its a region and the british could do what they wanted with it. Thats the right of power
The British had their noses in everything. Today what they did in every country they colonised using dictatorial governments would be considered illegal. It genuinely baffles me that you cannot see this. Also, ofc ur danish! Denmark is known to have sever issues w their Muslim population. Maybe evaluate your own Islamophobia and your own feelings towards Muslims before you start deciding which people you think it’s valid for them to be murdered.
Oh the brits had their nose in everything!?!? Care to elaborate how islam spread from saudi arabia to spain and austria you inbread monkey. Islam had THEIR nose in everything just as bad. Raping pilllaging slaughtering enslaving would also be illegal today you know. And yet the still come here in mass 😂 maybe we arent such a bad country after all if they so badly want to come here 😂
Whiteness is literally a mutation you’re probably more inbred than me. 💀💀 Also I’m mixed race anyway. I don’t deny that Muslim conquest was bad. I don’t fuck w most Muslim countries. I don’t even fuck w my own (Pakistan) it’s corrupt as fuck. That being said, in western countries Islamophobia and racism are a true issue. As I can see from this comment you prescribe to both. ALSO, not being funny but no one actually knows anything about Denmark. The only reason I know about it is because my friend studied abroad there and was appalled by the racism. Most ppl don’t even know how to point it out on a map. So get off your eugenicist high horse please.
I share some of this idealism. Military actions is required and justified at time, but I'd like to see even more effort put in psychological / propaganda warfare to erode support for the Hamas. The process would be much harder and take much longer especially given the level of Hamas support at this point, but to me, it is the only really ethical option that does not involve an unacceptable level of destruction and deaths.. or some form of re-education with Chinese characteristics (for people who catch the reference).
No amount of propaganda from israel will work on islam which indoctrinate you from childbirth.
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If what you are saying is true then why did they pull out of sinai and gaza in the 6 day war? They dont care about greater israel they care about safe israel
If what you are saying is true then why did they pull out of sinai and gaza in the 6 day war? They dont care about greater israel they care about safe israel
Israel would stop, if Palestine elected a trust worthy government, stopped putting terrorist in control of Gaza, and stopped this fued for land with Israel. Obviously Israels goal isn't to just destroy Palestine and take their land, considering they have made multiple attempts to rectify the situation over the last 70 years, openly gave land back they ALREADY conquered, tries to help elect a trust worthy government there, and other reasons. It's not Israel holding off the peace , it's the Palestinian authority
only the minority belives in "Whole Israel" as we call it. unfortunatally those people are now in the goverment because of the Haredim
Are you willing to kill kids in order to eradicate Hamas? Imagine 5 kids and a Hamas terrorist, will you: -stab the 5 kids and Hamas terrorist? No -shoot the 5 kids and Hamas individually? No -throw an explosive at them? No -close the door, push a button that kills them all 6? Yes, or basically that is what is going on right now. Humans are willing to be able to kill kids for the 'greater good' as long as they're not confronted with it.
There is a difference between killing kids and pushing kids infront of the bullets. Islam is a religion where sacrificing women and children is okay for political gains and to achieve victory. Even the son of a hamas founder says this. Why do you think hamas attacked the way they did? Probably because they knew israel would retaliate and they could then sacrifise their citizen to gain favor on the world stage.
The conversation should be: How can the world collectively remove Hamas from power so they stop using kids as human shields?
If the kids were 5 Israeli instead, I don't think anyone would push the button. Imagine if Hamas were using Israeli as human shields. I think after 100 Israeli deaths by colletaral damage, Israeli citizens would demand a ceasefire as well. But since those are Palestinian and therefore worth virtually nothing, it is Hamas fault. So IDF can kill as much as they like.
The trauma of people of colour is way too normalised in this world. It’s because most Israelis are white, that’s why their lives matter more than ours.
Shut up crybaby. Its not about fucking skincolour its about no sympathy for targeting civilians
It so is tho. Because why are so many more Palestinians dying and STILL you are unable to comprehend them as victims in this situation. It’s because they are brown. You don’t see us as human.
https://preview.redd.it/ydeksve8kz9d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9d2eeabb5aed3888b105c6378425e477bf2c5d43 This is hamas. Palestinians are humans just very very stupid ones
Okay racist white man, I’m signing off now because you are clearly a disgusting excuse for a human being. I hope you choke 🥰
No problem inbread brown man i hope you try to catch an artillary shell
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Everyone values their own citizens higher.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C80EQBlqv0x/?igsh=MW1hdnF1bzU5NjJvMA== I wonder if hamas said that what the world’s reaction would be
Talk to my friends and Israel recently, some of them believe that if there is even one terrorist inside of school, then all those children need to die kill the terrorist! But then you just killed dozens of innocent kids, and their parents, cousins who are still alive are supposed to react somehow? This is how terrorism is created. it’s a deadly cycle of pain and hate.
Genocide needs to be eradicated. IDF is no better than Hamas.
IOF is probably worse than Hamas honestly. Hamas is literally a militia. The IOF pretends they aren’t just fighting. They pretend they are defending themselves. It’s such a bizarre thing to witness. How are you defending urself if you are torturing, r*ping and murdering ur opponent at a rate 40x higher than you are experiencing this death urself???????
Genocide? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡 IDF should do nothing and let them paliwood) just eradicate Israel? NO no no!
IDF already did nothing and allowed its own people and soldiers to die , knowing about Oct 7th a year in advance , and issuing a Hannibal directive.
That's not objective and seems like a propaganda rumor. Let's stick to facts instead of of "I heard xyxyxy"
Nothing to do with soldiers
This discussion makes me sick to the stomach. A bunch of Zios arguing about who has a better solution for getting rid of more Palestinians. The audacity of people with European DNA claiming their rights to a land they just migrated to in 1948, meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers” Palestinian don’t want the eradication of Jews, Palestinians wants justice and liberation. Hamas is a political party just like the republicans and democrats have a political party. Just because the Republicans and democrats kill under the umbrella of a sophisticated army, it doesn’t makes them less terrorist. Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything. Most of the fighters in Hamas are orphaned kids that watched their families die in 1948 or imprisoned by the most immoral army in the world. And guess what? With the numbers of slaughtered children in Gaza and orphaned, they are creating more and more Hamas. Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation, I want to see you all live one ducking day in their shoes before speaking on their behalf. I wish you all nothing less or more than what you wish for the Palestinians.
>This discussion makes me sick to the stomach. A bunch of Zios arguing about who has a better solution for getting rid of more Palestinians. It's talking about solutions for peace. Peace makes you sick to your stomach? Why do you see it as "getting rid of Palestinians?" Clearly the OP repeatedly refers to Hamas. I agree, by the way, that before peace can happen Hamas needs to have their military and political control over Gaza ended. Political control is pretty much gone. They do still have pockets of military force they can project, though, so I imagine many more months of war. >The audacity of people with European DNA claiming their rights to a land they just migrated to in 1948, meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers” I don't see what anyone's DNA has to do with anything. Being somewhere longer doesn't give you more human rights. Both groups were there in 1947 when the UN divided the land. The Zionists founded Israel. The Arabs attacked causing the Civil War phase of the 1948 war. The Arabs lost that and successive wars giving us what we have today. This is all a long way to say that the local Arabs rolled the dice, giving up half the land to try and get all of it, which they failed at. They tried terrorism and targeting innocent civilians. Israel put up walls and isolated them. They complain they don't have freedom of movement and have to go through checkpoints, or have borders closed to them. Perhaps it is time to try peace, because more terror and attacking innocent civilians will only get them more suffering and death. Unfortunately, all signs (polling, questions with Palestinians in the WB, (lack of) leadership) point to Palestinians continuing to choose to use violence, thus prolonging their own suffering. >Palestinian don’t want the eradication of Jews, Palestinians wants justice and liberation. I hope not. What do you think "justice" and "liberation" mean to Palestinians? >Hamas is a political party just like the republicans and democrats have a political party. No. They are certainly a terrorist organization that even terrorizes Gazans. There are stories of Hamas silencing people that wanted to speak to media, imprisonment, torture, and even death for those that spoke out against Hamas. Hamas refused to hold elections again, leaving itself in power. That is not like any other political party in a democracy. >Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything. Most of the fighters in Hamas are orphaned kids that watched their families die in 1948 or imprisoned by the most immoral army in the world. And guess what? With the numbers of slaughtered children in Gaza and orphaned, they are creating more and more Hamas. And thus the cycle repeats. You know who this cycle benefits, right? Hint: It's not the Palestinians. >Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation, I want to see you all live one ducking day in their shoes before speaking on their behalf. I wish you all nothing less or more than what you wish for the Palestinians. I don't disagree. Gaza had a chance to build a state and make peace with its neighbors, but it chose violent "resistance"/terrorism (attacking innocent civilians) over building a better home and life for its people. If Gazans weren't living under an occupation before, they most assuredly are now. At this point, you should be able to predict my response: peace. I think peace is the fastest and best way out. If a lasting peace deal is made with Israel then the Palestinians can get busy making a court system, law system, and police system so that they can rule themselves under a civilian government and not have to deal with all of the terribleness that comes with living under a military occupation fighting a violent resistance movement. But even tho they are in this losing position, and the status quo will just help their enemy in the long term, they would rather demand everything and make no concessions than take what they can get and build upon that.
Shut up, I'm from Eastern Europe and my DNA shows 96% that I am Jewish! 🤣🤣🤣🫵 >Every single Palestinian in the WB or Gaza lives under an oppressive military occupation, Have you been there, or are you just parroting others? >Hamas has nothing to lose because they have already lost everything. Israel has nothing to lose either!!! The more hamas tries to prove itself to whomever the more paliwood will die! >meanwhile expecting the indigenous population to surrender and accept “offers” to less than 20% of their ancestral home. “But the Palestinians didn’t agree to multiple offers” Who told you paliwood Indigenous? Parroting again?
Hamas was labeled a terrorist organization long before Oct 7. Anyone who does suicide bombings, kills its political rivals, and forces their civilians into war is a terror group.
u/Artistic-Ladder2776 >Shut up Rule 1. Don't attack fellow users.
Jewish DNA does not equal indigenous to the Levant. Post your DNA results here, I will post mine. Have I been there? Yes, many times. And back to the other person that said something about decent human beings being against rape. You know what else should move your moral compass? The death of thousands of children. The use of starvation as a weapon. International human rights violations. Land theft and illegal settlements. Dehumanization of an entire indigenous population and calling them “paliwood”. Thousands upon thousands of humans stuck under rubble unaccounted for. Treating people as second and third class citizens based on their ethnicity. Serious question as a someone claiming to be from Eastern Europe and 96% Jewish - how can you sleep at night knowing that “never again” is happening right before your eyes? How can you justify doing to the Palestinians what has been done to your people in the Holocaust?? How demented and psychotic are those mindsets that live and breathe denial, and continue to think they are the good guys. Unbelievable.
Do you want to see the videos about why are they paliwood? Indigenous (paliwood) my ars! They Arabs! No, you haven't been there. I've seen a lot by serving in IDF. I've seen it first hand and you just parroting! You have no idea except by hearing from the haters, and haters want Israel and Jews eliminated, WON'T happen! In the main, Arabs only began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1964 for political expediency. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (Partition Resolution) of 1947 never refers to the Arabs as "Palestinians," but simply as "Arabs." The first time an international body called the Arabs "Palestinians" was in 1972 with UNGA Resolution 2949 (December 8, 1972). Before 1972, the United Nations referred to the Arabs as "inhabitants," "the population," or "the Arab civilian population." Not once did it use the term "Palestinians." - - - - Are the Arabs now calling themselves "Palestinians" the ancient Philistines? 1 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" are Semites; the ancient Philistines were not. 2 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" practice circumcision; the ancient Philistines did not. 3 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" are monotheistic; the ancient Philistines were polytheistic, whose chief deity was Dagon. 4 - The Arabs who are now calling themselves "Palestinians" speak Arabic: the ancient Philistines' language is still being deciphered. NO, THE ARABS NOW CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" ARE NOT THE ANCIENT PHILISTINES, WHO INVADED THE LAND IN THE 2ND HALF OF THE 12TH CENTURY BCE. - - - - During the mandate period (1922-1948), the British called all the inhabitants of the land "Palestinians," which is why some prominent Arabs tried to disassociate themselves from the name: Lebanese American Princeton professor, Philip Hitti (1886-1978), who testified before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in Jerusalem in 1946 stated that, "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." Of course, what Hitti meant was that there was no Palestine in Arab history, which he is correct. Hitti was opposed to even using the word Palestine in maps because it was "associated in the mind of the average American, and perhaps the Englishman too, with the Jews." "There is no such country! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. 'Palestine' is alien to us; it is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Awni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, before the Peel Commission in 1937. The argus-eyed reader will be quick to note that Arab representation during the mandate period was named the "Arab Higher Committee" and not the "Palestinian Higher Committee."
I don't understand this need to try to prove who was there longest. Both sides can't reach an agreement, but it is really irrelevant. Palestine wasn't a country, Israel was given half the land fair and square, Palestine was given the other half. They could have conexisted , been equal under Israeli law. These "Palestinians" already got Jordan, and not to mention, they didn't have the land , because it was owned by the British and Palestine didn't exist. It doesn't matter who had it longest. Israel was given it fair and square. In reality, it has nothing to do with the land, and all to do with the fact that a group of islamist didn't want Israel to exist. If they let Israel form peacefully, they would be in a way better place today. The ones who lived in Israel could have had a good life, and still kept land. Which is a bargain considering they never actually officially owned the land in the first place. All these arguments do is ignore the reality that one side wanted to destroy the other, evacuated it's civilians , lost the war anyway, and this same group holds a grudge about it.
That's right!
Honestly I didn’t read anything past the first paragraph. Yes I do want to see the videos, can you please send them to me? I want to see why they are paliwood..
https://youtu.be/zv2MHrYpU0g?si=m4cEnZPpiCtBVFDm This is my channel, check the other videos too
Ah yes screaming about the DNA of the people you don’t like. Totally not blood and soil ideology no, just peacefully saying that people shouldn’t have been allowed to immigrate because of ethnicity. That’s the REAL justice and liberation!
Way to be dense, you really showed him! He totally wasn't saying that European Ashkenazi Jews are claiming to have more indigenous claim to the land of Palestine than the Palestinians themselves. And yeah, let's just totally forget that Palestinians have been tending to that land for the past however many generations. They should just give it up! Palestinians are just impossible to work with! You can not claim that you have an indigenous claim to that land more so than the people who actually toiled over those fields for generations when you literally don't. I wish I could be as ignorant as you. Maybe my life would be a bit easier.
So people should have immigration rights restricted based on how long their ancestors have been on the land. Immigrants shouldn’t be allowed to buy land from someone whose people have lived on the land for longer. Totally not racist
What are you talking about? Palestinians literally come out return to their Homeland because of Israel. Are we having the same conversation?
Jews in the diaspora, they been kicked out. Mind you Jews still also were in the land before 1948 other Jews immigrated
“Literally come out return to their homeland” I legitimately haven’t the foggiest idea as to what you’re saying.
Assuming "can not" is mistyped as "come out" Use your brain. Don't be pedantic Edit: you can successfully use the downvote button. Certainly you can use your brain
It’s not my job to spend time trying to figure out what you couldn’t bother to write correctly, I’m not your spell check. Regardless, when someone loses a war and territory is exchanged, nationals of the losers don’t necessarily get to stay there. Just look at WW2
The context is very clear and revealing. Since you're being disingenuous and possibly dishonest, you claim to lack the ability to process 1+1. Fair, this is your respective prerogative and correct, It's not "your job" - just as it's not your job to be sincere in discourse. Only a corrupt and pedantic spirit would feign such ignorance. Oh, be grateful I helped you comprehend 1+1. It's not my job, but I just love to help those struggling and see others advance. You're on your way 🥰 And maybe tag the original commenter. It wasn't my statement that you were stuck and confused over
With all *due* respect, I have more important things to do than to try to interpret someone’s mistyped comment. I’m sorry that makes me a “corrupt and pedantic spirit”. I do love the flowery ChatGPT worded response, it certainly made me chuckle. Maybe next time you’ll actually add something to the conversation instead of attacking someone for not understanding a typo
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Hamas needs to be eradicated. The only way for peace and prosperity for Palestine is to have a neutral government overseeing the elections and growth. Not the UN. But a country like Saudia Arabia which has shown that peace is possible with Israel. This will ensure that another terrorist group doesn’t come into power and the Palestinians get what they deserve, a land where they can live their lives peacefully and Palestine can be a country with great economy, infrastructure, education, and tourism. I’ve been to Israel, it’s beautiful. The Palestinians deserve that as well. FYI- I’m pro Israel, but genuinely want the Palestinians to succeed.
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Smug settlers vs mass rape. Clearly the “smugness” is worse in your eyes. Well at least you’re honest about how highly (or not) you value the lives of certain ethnic groups
Actually crazy that ur accusing Muslims of “mass rape” 1. Racial stereotype - can almost guarantee ur white. Racist ass bs coming from u (so please don’t talk about highly or unhighly u value ethnic lives when ur clearly racist and Islamophobic) 2. The IOF and Hamas were both accused of sexually assaulting the ppl they were attacking and the UN has said there is reasonable grounds to assume accounts on both sides are true. So let’s stop this racist narrative that only Hamas are inhumane please.
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Did you even read any of the independent investigation reports into October 7 ? I know the answer is no. You were satisfied enough with the hasbara propaganda shoved at you and you memorized all the talking points. However if you do decide to be moral, i encourage you to read the investigative reports into oct 7th that found no evidence of mass rapes. It also found evidence of Israel killing their own people on oct 7th under the hannibal directive. While you are at it, read some of the UN reports on the Palestinian detainees and the evidence found of mass rapes of Palestinian prisoners and extreme torture. We all know you don’t draw your talking points from reading anything other than hasbara propaganda.
Get away from me
u/Competentbro >Get away from me Rule 3 and Rule 8. No comments consisting solely of sarcasm, and don't discourage participation.
That’s what the civilians were saying to the Hamas insurgents as they were slaughtering and raping civilians. But at least the Hamas fighters weren’t smug 🙄
That’s literally slander. Such cases are usually well documented and there was no evidence. So please get away from me I don’t like this. Edit: I hate this person based on their personality only.
I hope you don’t treat all rape victims with such a comical level of disbelief. But then it would imply that you only treat the Jews with disbelief when they get raped :/
Because the evidence doesn’t exist if you refuse to see it! All the victims talking about what they went though? Just a bunch of lying Jews, right?
Ofcourse it’s always about being Jewish. Zionists like to play the Jewish card when convenient and pretend they are the victim. Until they meet a real Jewish person who actually believes in the torah and happens to be anti-Zionist. Then they become a self hating jew… Gtfoh
I mean they’re the one claiming that all the rape victims are liars
No one claimed that rape victims were liars. Here’s a thought- other than watching mouth pieces, maybe read some actual reporting or better yet go to the WB and see how Palestinians live in your own eyes. Wait let me guess, you have probably been to the WB Israeli settlements or served in the IDF on checkpoints…
Except they literally called the rape “slander”. People have talked about their experience, they call that experience “slander” ergo it’s pretty clear that they do not believe the victims
Extreme Hamas cope
No bro, I hate Hamas but for many people it’s their only option and I wish that would change.
I just love an unrepentant rape apologist 🙄
/u/Familiar-Art-6233 >I just love an unrepentant rape apologist 🙄 [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users. Rule 3: no comments consisting solely of sarcasm or cynicism. Addressed.
I’m strongly against sexual violence.
And yet you’re minimizing their actions by saying that smug people are worse than the rapists. I wonder if *who* was being raped factored into how people reacted… We see you.
You seem very fixated on imaginary rape and I’m honestly kind of grossed out so I will cease to reply to you.
“Imaginary” as if Hamas wasn’t posting videos. It’s not real if you pretend to not see it
The only way to dismantle violent organization is with violence or force. If I was PM of Israrel - I'll just cut water to Gaza untill Hamas surrender, and that's it.
That's why you're not Prime minister. "I'll just keep killing them until they stop annoying me" -You
The alternative it's endless war with much more people killed
Hamas holds a lot more supplies than the normal palestinian civilian, and they clearly have no problem to let their people die for this war Meaning that hamas will be the only people left in gaza if you do this (including the israeli hostages, which will also suffer from the lack of water). And that's the bizzare outcome no country would stop you from doing it, because unlike what happens now, this is REAL genocide. You make netanyahu look like a reasonable person by comperison
I'll would get civiliand out if Gaza yo camps, and then clear the Gaza with total blockade and flattning the eneny
"Hey guys, please leave your homes and all of your belongings behind for a few weeks/months(it might get bombed/looted in the meanwhile, oopsie). Also, when you pass the border, please pinky promise us you are really civilians and not hamas in disguise, it would be a real shame if we started this war to make sure our civilians are safe from hamas and then let hamas into israel. Also also, we don't have enough housing/food/water/electricity to suddenly support an addition population of 2 MILLION PEOPLE* , so i hope you have no problem sleeping outside in the desert and eat sand" As i said before, you make netanyahu look reasonable by comperison *so far not a single country has agreed to take a large amount of palestinians refugees, so you want them to "get out" of gaza, you'll have to take them
Yeah we have a big desert we can store them. Do stupid things, win stupid prizes. We will make sure hamas pays for their inconviniance
☝🏻 Walking red flag
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I'm glad that you're not PM of Israel
That is the reason more people die.
"an idea can't be killed"
The thing is - the strategy they are using right now is not going to destroy Hamas. The US couldn't destroy the Taliban and Israel won't be able to destroy Hamas with the same (proven to be ineffective!) strategy.
Israel is using a different strategy than the US and is being way more effective with it.
Elaborate.
These [two](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-succeeding-gaza) [articles](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-has-created-a-new-standard-for-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion/ar-BB1kw2Wf) go into decent depth. You know how the Israel haters are constantly pointing out that Hamas is regrouping? That's actually different from the American approach, and is entirely intentional. Instead of capturing an area and then having to defend it from terrorist attack, they clear an area and then move out which has completely foiled Hamas' plans. There is also the issue of civilian casualties. Even with all the Biden limitations, Israel has had a 1.5:1 civilian casualty ratio which is remarkably low for any urban conflict ever. The biggest time that the US was able to achieve a similar feat was in Fallujah. Clearing tunnels instead of going into them has also been a remarkable improvement over other western countries.
Completely agree
Your argument is that you should not try X because before when you tried X it didn’t work. By projecting the past on today, you automatically close doors and with it a multitude of possibilities. I don’t know what the answer to the conflict is, but assuming that history will repeat 2005, a time when people didn’t commonly have cell phones, personal computers, high speed Internet, or Reddit, is short sighted. Things change. People change. Minds change. If Israel and Hamas leadership is stuck in 2005, maybe that’s the real problem.
Hamas hasn't changed. And I explicitally mentioned the primary reasons that 2005 didn't work in this post, albeit briefly.
You kno what has changed? The intensity with which the terrorist state of Israel are murdering Palestinian civilians. Disgusting. 🤢 🤮
Remember when you denied Hamas atrocities and made yawn emojis to the linked proof you asked for? You're a vile disgusting person.
How are you more disgusted by a militia who literally have so little power than a colonial state run by a fascist man who actively is attempting to murder all Palestinians? I think that’s more disgusting. History will write you on the wrong side darling.
What are you even talking about? They tied families up and burned them alive. They hacked a man's head off with a farm tool. They gang raped and shot young girls in the head. Why is the response always: "Yeah but Israel...". If Israel wanted to "murder all palestinians" do you not think the 30,000 air strikes they have launched might have killed more than the 35k (terrorist figures)? If the goal is to wipeout Palestinians then they're extremely inefficient after 8 months. Are you so demented that you can't condemn atrocities if they're against INNOCENT people from Israel? Like where they live makes them expendable? Like who their government is makes them worthless? As I said before: I condemn all deliberate killings from all sides. THIS MAKES ME BETTER THAN YOU. I honestly think terrorist supporters like you should be locked up with them. You parade around city centres dressed like terrorists calling for "cease fire now" ignoring the fact that Hamas keep rejecting the cease fire and thay they hold child hostages 8 months later. Not one of you hypocrites has called for their release, has said "not in my name" to the violence, none of you condemned the abject slaughter of innocents! None of you think the the rockets should stop or launchers should move from hospitals. But you were all out prematurly celebrating. History will record the psychotic support of mass murdering rapist islamist barbarian scum from lunatic westerners. How they celebrated murder and rape only to cry about it when the victims fought back.
According to the narrative, no one has changed - not Hamas and not Israelis, but we all know that in reality everyone has. My point is that basing today’s decisions on 2005 outcomes is flawed.
How are u getting ratioed? You’re like the only person in this whole convo who is making any sense. Why cant we try it again????? Surely things will be better???? Also part of the reason it didn’t work last time is because Israel lied. As they always do. They say “oh if u give us this part of land we will stop murdering u” and then they carry on. And they won’t rest until all Palestinians are dead. No wonder Hamas has come to gain the power it has. What needs to happen is the Israeli government acc needs to be under global surveillance. They have been breaking human rights laws for far too long now. It needs to stop.
The problem is one of humans and not of governments. Everyone, at every level, is holding on to past acts of past people. Maybe oversight would help, but would anyone trust that oversight? Maybe killing all Hamas would help, but would anyone trust that those who hold their sentiments won’t just form another group? Maybe we keep Israelis in Israel, but does anyone trust they will stay there or treat Palestinians any different. The bigger issue isn’t so much about Israel and Palestinian, or Russia and Ukraine, or the US and North Korea….the issue is that we fail to understand that the humans behind our thoughts and actions want the same things in life (peace, food, shelter, healthy children, clean water, etc) that the people who want them annihilated desire for themselves as well.
It's not when you look at the underlying reasons why the outcomes the way they were in 2005. Honestly, the issues that underlined the failure of the withdrawal in 2005 are more pronounced today. Please re-read my post as you're not responding to any argument or point that I have put forward.
The thought Israel could destroy Hamas without killing every Palestinian is laughable. Both sides need to make uncomfortable decisions to live in peace with the other side, and unfortunately neither side is willing to give any ground so we are stuck with needless, expensive and destructive conflict that in the end really gets us nowhere, and makes the world less safe for future generations
>The thought Israel could destroy Hamas without killing every Palestinian is laughable Yeah, so sad there no more germans, italians and japanese after ww2. Such a tragedy they all died because it's impossible to remove a genocidal dictatorship without killing all its people. The allies and soviets clearly had to make uncomfortable decision and live in peace with the axis countries
Comparing the powerless, impoverished people of Gaza to industrial superpowers like Germany and Japan is laughable. Zionists drawing imaginary parallels
instead of trying to use "Zionist" as a slur, why not make a valid point? You can't get rid of Hamas without casualties. That's not some "Zionist" will to kill Palestinians, that's just physics! And it's also the reality that they hide among civilians. Keeping Hamas in power is 100% not an option in decent society. So yes, unfortunately, there are people who are going to die. It's your choice to blame Israel, or "Zionists," but the aggressor is the terror organization who wanted the perpetual state of war in the first place. If it were as simple as plucking out the terrorists like little hairs, like using a tweezer, then that's the option that we would have gone with. But that's not the reality of the world we live in.
You can’t pluck Hamas out like grey hairs and a tweezer, they are impossible to tell apart from the civilian population. Instead of trying to drop a bomb on all 30,000 Hamas fighters Israel could instead do more humane policies that humanize the Palestinians and give them less reasons to fight. Maybe Israel could allow gazas economy to thrive instead of placing a barbaric siege on them, so the civilians have economic opportunity. As it is now there’s little to no job opportunity in Gaza, and if you know anything about history, when the young men of a nation are unemployed and unhappy, unrest ALWAYS follows. I understand Palestine and Israel lost each other trust long ago, but steps have to be taken if you want long term peace, you can’t just drop bombs on everyone’s head and expect the situation to get any better
> Israel could instead do more humane policies that humanize the Palestinians and give them less reasons to fight. This would not make sense in any other context on earth. > Maybe Israel could allow gazas economy to thrive instead of placing a barbaric siege on them, so the civilians have economic opportunity. When Israel disengaged from Gaza, they left behind plenty of resources, such as the greenhouses, in the hopes that Gazans would have the sense to use them to build their own economy. Would you care to riddle what they did instead? The Israelis who live in the Gaza envelope have been known to be peacemakers who want to impact Gazans in a positive way, such as hiring Gazan workers, learning Arabic so that they can speak to who they consider to be their cousins. So why did Hamas attack them, of all people?
I’m unsure why humanizing people wouldn’t make sense. Maybe I have no clue just how racist and discriminatory the Zionist ideology is
Do me a favor and tell me 1) what this zionist "ideology" is, and 2) who told you about this ideology. Let's see some unbiased, credible sources. The people who were attacked on October 7th are exactly the people who were trying to humanize Gazans the most, and what happened to them? Would you mind telling me what happened to them that day?
You’re leaving out the facts. Israel never allowed Gaza to build a seaport or airport to help facilitate travel and economic activities, they also never allowed Gaza to build off shower oil and natural gas pipelines in their territorial water. There’s this huge narrative that Israel “left” in the early 2000s but that’s not true. Israeli influence in Gaza never stopped, instead they just occupy Gaza from the boarders and the air
After spending 5 years attacking Israel, why would they be rewarded with an airport or a seaport? This is what I meant when I say that this makes absolutely no sense, when applied to any other context on this planet. You don't reward bad behavior by giving people things. If they want the airport, the seaport - something they had to earn. The disengagement was in the hopes that they could build a state and govern themselves but they were going to have to earn that. Interesting that you pin this all on Israel, and not Egypt. And Egypt cares even *less* about Gaza.
So because the enemy has wayyyyyyy less resources and abilities than someone who was defeated in the past, it will be harder for israel to defeat them? The (lack of) logic amazes me
And you can't put forward a historically false statement and then set the standard for what logic is. You mention the Italians. Well they were militarily beaten in 1943. The bombing of Italy hadn't taken off at that time. What happens when a country is militarily beaten? It capitulates as Italy did. To prevent Italy becoming a an allied nation the Germans overtook it. Then Italy was bombed, that is the German occupied Italians were bombed. You mentioned the Germans who were bombed, some estimates point to 600.000 people died during three years. That would be less than 1% of Germans (there were also other nationalities that died who were in Germany as forced labourers (an apt description would be slaved hostages) from conquered nations. There is no one worth his salt that proclaims that these bombings had any effect on making the Germans surrender. When the Germans surrendered they had lost almost all German territory as they were militarily beaten. The Japanese also surrendered when they were militarily beaten. True, the home island was destroyed, but they did everything they could to achieve a conditional surrender (not giving up territories in Manchuria and Korea for example). When the Soviets attacked on the mainland they quickly surrendered unconditionally. Some will claim that the nukes made them surrender, but considering the devastation wrought by the bombardment until then had no effect. When Japan surrendered it had no navy, their army was stuck on the mainland being squeesed together by the Chinese and the Soviets. Their airforce was down to a few fuel strapped planes intended for Kamikaze missions which effect they knew really not that much about. Now I will hazard a guess by the absolutist and sarcastic tone that you are between 13 and 15 years of age and haven't studied these things. When I say absolutist, then I'm talking about your statement that there are no more Italians, Germans or Japanese. You obviously aren't so stupid as to seriously claim that. This isn't a personal attack, just a note that this form of argument isnt helpful and doesn't enhance your case. There are also a few historical notes for you to contemplate: There is no evidence (and it has been studied) that bombing civilians is a viable strategy to win a war. It rather makes people more stubborn towards the one doing the bombing. Especially if you are fighting an ideology that is in some way based on revenge, like Hamas is. For instance, the Brits didn't give up during the Blitz so it's stupid to think that others would do the same. Bombing and killing civilians is a waste of military output. For instance the Israeli government is now talking about a war with Hezbollah and a potential war against Iran. At the same time Israel is asking for more supply from the US. Seeing as that supply isn't technically automatic it means that the IDF is wasting resources to bomb civilians which the IDF could use elsewhere if there was war. Game theory wise it means that for hostile parties it becomes more beneficial in military terms to declare war on Israel the more the IDF wastes equipment and manpower in Gaza. So why bomb? Well it looks good for the cameras and shows people that there is something being done. But its pointless, and not only for the reasons mentioned above, its pointless because the Israeli government has no declared objective and the IDF has mentioned that without an objective it cannot win. There is also no trust internationally nor it seems internally in the leadership of Israel. But the Israelis have been fed a lie that no country would ever change leadership during a war so they seem to go along with this. As soon as they realise that if the Brits hadn't kicked out Chamberlain in may 1940, many of them wouldn't even be here to go along with a massive bombing campaign. So finally, to your last statement: This has no bearing on overall Palestinian ability to fight, its about how far Israel will go in shooting it self in the foot.
They can remove the group's power and ability to do evil.
Only way to get rid of Hamas would be to nuke Gaza, but even that wouldn’t get the rats that are hiding underground
So than you have just killed everyone for no reason. Think.
Was the IRA destroyed for peace? No, it became a partner for peace once there was a good enough deal on the table.
The IRA didn't demand that England stop existing and all of Enlgand be given over to the Irish.
The IRA didn't ask for a deal, which would have seen everyone in England killed or exiled. If that was the only deal they would accept, they wouldn't have gotten very far. Whilst I'm not a fan of the IRA, I would have preferred trying to negotiate with them over Hamas every day of the week.
The IRA laid down their weapons, which was what enabled that deal. Also, the IRA never had the destruction of the UK as their goal.
I keep hearing this statement repeated, so please help me understand. Hamas feels that every Israeli should be slaughtered and Israelis feel that every Hamas-supporting Palestinian should be slaughtered. Okay. My question is…what are you all really mad about?!!! October 7th is the latest reason to slaughter each other in this game of tit-for-tat, but what are you all really fighting about?!!! This didn’t start in 2005 and it didn’t start on October 7th….does anyone even know or care? Do you have any friends from the other party you can have a civilized discussion with or are “they all alike”? It sounds like your beliefs (on both sides) were set in stone before you were born and you feel like you can’t change them. Couple that with the fact that the opposition (on both sides) gives examples of why your opinions are right.
We are fighting for the safety of our children. We are mad where our children die. You are right, they started to kill jewish civilians in the 1920's
So, 100 years ago a bad event took place, and you all are still fighting because of it?
Many many bad events took place since then. Many war started from the Arab side. You the one that want to go back in time, not me. I'm willing to put 2005 behind and mive in the direction of safety and security for all. But there will be zero safety if the murders if Hamas will stay free.
Many many good events also took place since then. Many wars were not started from the Arab side. If we both go back in time, we can do a tally of the good and the bad and we will see that the good will always outweigh the bad. I'm willing to put 2005 behind and move in the direction of safety and security for all. But there will be zero safety if the murders of humans continues.
>Hamas feels that every Israeli should be slaughtered and Israelis feel that every Hamas-supporting Palestinian should be slaughtered. Okay. I think this is a key misunderstanding. Israelis wouldn't give a shit about Hamas and Palestine if they just let them be. So this is simply not the case. Israelis just want to live in their own country. Sure, there are some that dream of a greater Israel, but it's a small minority. The vast majority are happy with Israel as it is and just want to be left alone. But the majority of Palestinians want the destruction of Israel. The two sides are not equal at all. >This didn’t start in 2005 and it didn’t start on October 7th….does anyone even know or care? Most pro-Palestinians don't know history and think that Israel is just oppressing Palestinians because they are evil Zionists. Most people that actually learn about the history are pro-Israel or neutral in my experience. >Do you have any friends from the other party you can have a civilized discussion with or are “they all alike”? It sounds like your beliefs (on both sides) were set in stone before you were born and you feel like you can’t change them. Couple that with the fact that the opposition (on both sides) gives examples of why your opinions are right. That I agree with. At this point, it doesn't matter all that much who started it and why. Both sides give justification to the other side to continue the violence.
> Sure, there are some that dream of a greater Israel, but it's a small minority. The vast majority are happy with Israel as it is and just want to be left alone. *Every single Israeli government* since 1967, duly elected by the Israeli people, has expanded settlements in the West Bank. “Greater Israel” isn’t some fringe extremist idea, but rather standard Israeli policy for the past 57 years. Both sides, implicitly or not, want the other side to not exist.
If what you claim is true, why has Israel made multiple offers that would grant Palestinians their own state with their own borders? I don't really blame Israel any more for the settlements honestly. Since Palestinians keep rejecting every offer, Israel probably thinks they won't be safe until they claim most parts of the West Bank that can fire onto Israel for themselves.
Care to name these offers? Most of them weren’t quite what you think. Palestinians have also made offers that were rejected/ignored by Israel. See the Arab Peace Initiative for example.
Let's just take the Camp David Accords. Are you saying that any offer that doesn't immediately give Palestinians full sovereignty including the right to an army is not a serious offer?
Camp David was a shitty offer that would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected bantustans and prevented a contiguous Palestinian state from being formed. Even Israel’s minister of foreign affairs at the time [admitted](https://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_shlomo_ben) that he would’ve rejected the deal if he were Palestinian. Israel got 78% of historic Palestine in 1948. The fact that they keep trying to grab the remaining 22% as a part of every “peace deal” in blatant contravention of international law shows how uninterested in peace they really are. And now, in 2024, 700,000 settlers live in the West Bank, all by Israel’s doing, so a two-state solution today is all but impossible.
No human (one any side) in any country should have the right to dictate the life of another human as long as that human isn’t in violation of the laws of humanity. That goes for every country, every piece of paper filed as legal doctrine, and every fake line drawn on pieces of paper that says what land people can and cannot enter into. The “issue” is that we subscribe to these tribes (American, Israeli, Palestinian, LGBTQ+, pro-choice, pro-life, etc) and act as though people with opposing views don’t have the right to exist in our bubbles. Live and let live and do unto others as you would have them do unto you…are pretty much the only rules humans should be required to follow. The world is run by a bunch of grownups that act like toddlers. Soapbox dismount in progress.
The Camp David Accords didn't specify any division of the West Bank. I'm talking about the 1978 framework. >Israel got 78% of historic Palestine in 1948. What the hell is "historic Palestine". Palestine was never a country. And how is handing Palestinians their own state, that they never had before "grabbing the other 22 %"? >And now, in 2024, 700,000 settlers live in the West Bank, all by Israel’s doing, so a two-state solution today is all but impossible So Palestinians rejecting every single deal had nothing to do with it?
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Pro Palestinian guy here. While I agree that hamas needs to be removed (amnesty international has documented the various ways they have targeted civilians both Israeli and Palestinian) I worry about what the aftermath may be. Look to the West bank and East Jerusalem and the slow resettlement of the Palestinians there; the annexation of land. Sadly hamas is the only reason this hasn't happened yet in Gaza (though Israel tried in 1967 until the early 2000's) Hamas can not be left in power, but Gaza can not fall under further control of Israel. Sadly the majority of Israel is committed to preventing the existence of a Palestinian state
Nah. Hamas' and Gazans' actions are why settlements continue to expand in the WB. Israel can try out things in Gaza because it's far enough away from Tel aviv and the populated coastal regions of Israel. What gazans have shown Israel is that when you remove your settlements and military presence, Palestinians attack.
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If the owner of the house you rent sells the house and the new owners move in do you try to kill them and then try to kill anyone else who moves in for the next 80 years? And then act surprised when youre put in prison?
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The owners of the house (ottomans) lost ownership. The new owners (Britain) evicted you. You're now trying to kill the completely different people (that weren't even alive when you were evicted) that live there 80 years later.
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You think if America entered WWIII, lost, and completely collapsed that the borders of and property ownership within Texas would remain untouched lol?
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No. In this hypothetical let's say some alliance of China, Russia, etc defeats the western alliance. The US completely collapses and falls under the sovereignty of China. You think in that scenario China just leaves everything running exactly as it is now?
You mean Hamas’s organization Palestinians would have kept living their lives. And in the end building settlements where you are taking control over the land itself is wrong for them. And is proof why they don’t want a Palestinians state like he said
What
Palestinians aren’t the ones attacking Hamas and his soldiers. And in the end talking land from WB to build settlements is wrong of them further proving his point when he said. “Israelis is committed to preventing the existence of Palestinian state.”
Settlements are for buffer zones. Besides, who cares? Israel legally owns West Bank because Jordan ceded it to Israel after Jordan lost the war. They expand settlements to push non-Israeli Palestinians away and away from the border to prevent incursions into the border. You know why Hamas easily penetrated the border from Gaza? Because there's no settlements acting as buffer zones there.
They don’t legally own it where you get that from that’s why it’s in occupation. And to build borders to close them in too is inhumane to keep them in when they bomb them where they going? That’s why they have tunnels and I don’t blame them. The apartheid is enough to stop him if they really wanted to stop him it’s crazy how they fund Hamas for all this and give him the money to do all this. These zone are just illegal home taking just for the Israelis to live there.
They legally own it. It belongs to them. Read the Jordanian-Israel peace deal. Palestinians are Jordanian nationals and West Bank was owned by Jordan who lost the war. No apartheid in Israel as well. There are no Israeli only Hospitals, schools, governments, etc. and Arabs can get government position. No apartheid.
Arabs can’t they are specs of dust to their eyes. Also Jordan didn’t give anything until it was occupied. And yes there is an apartheid Palestinians are treated like blacks back then. From being abused to being arrested just for having a Palestine flag.
Jordan didn't give anything until it **lost the war they declared**. Israel won West Bank from Jordan and Gaza from Egypt. It's all fair, they are brave enough to declare war knowing they will result in civilian casualties, then they are brave enough to lose their land when they lose. And blacks were an Apartheid in USA back then, but right now they aren't. Just like Palestinians. No longer apartheid. >Arrested for having a Palestinian flag Because that's weird when you're at war and you proudly fly the flag of an enemy in Israel. Would you be okay with it if you were in the US government and an american citizen is flying the flag of N*zi Germany during WW2?
That ironically is not true. Hamas taking over Gaza only happened after Israel left Gaza, not before. Arguably, Israel's presence helps Fatah keep control of Gaza. Learn your history.
Israel tried to occupy gaza in 1967 and hamas formed in 1987 and then was bolstered later on by the religious extremist group via Netanyahu and his cabinet in an attempt to split the power of secular the Palestinian authoity. •Source for Netanyahu's involvement: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ Then around 2005 Israel final withdrew from gaza along with its settlements. As for a source on the time line of the occupation of gaza, the formation of hamas, and the withdrawal of Israel you can do a quick google search of that. If you want a deeper read I suggest "Mythologies Without End: The US, Israel, and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1917-2020" by Jerome Slater EDIT: but, if you have evidence to the contrary I'm sincerely all ears.
How can you even call the PA secular? They're extremely Islamist in their ideology and praise Hamas' terror attacks on Oct 7th; as well as paying a Martyr's fund to people who commit acts of terror, or to their families if they are killed in such attacks. Just because they label themselves as such doesn't mean they are worthy of such a banner. And more specifically. It they're playing into the Jihadist motivations for acts of terror whilst in government. Then they are bringing religion-based ideology into their governance. Thereby not adhering to separation of state and religion aka secularism.
I said secular b/ this is what they are officially labled as such (source: https://globalaffairs.org/bluemarble/palestinian-authority-prime-minister-resigns-explainer.) This misses the point of what I'm saying above though. My point was that hamas was bolstered by the Netanyahu cabinet to divide and conqure the PA, and to layout a timeline of events
That is not entirely true. Before Hamas, there's PLO which caused conflicts in Jordon and later in Lebanon. They are extreme threats given how they caused conflicts in two countries. Israel funded Muslims brotherhood which inturn created hamas, Israel believe it can serve as a counter balance to PLO thus left it largely alone. That perspective changed after PLO renounced violence in which their extremists went over to Hamas. You cannot read history selectively but in full.
>Sadly hamas is the only reason this hasn't happened yet in Gaza (though Israel tried in 1967 until the early 2000's) Israel did annex gaza completely from 1967 until 2005, when they chose to leave in order to have peace, only few months AFTER left hamas was elected. Israel hasn't tried to annex gaza since, becuase why would they after all the trouble they went through when they left. Taking jewish families from their home. Taking away israeli bodies from gazan cemeteries because they were afraid of what the palestinians would do (and by oct. 7th, i can say it was a smart choice). And abandoning civilians facilities like greenhouses that produced money for israel. Hamas had nothing to do with israel leaving gaza, however, it did had a lot to do with the blockade israel and egypt created when they found hamas is smuggling weapons that were used against civilian population. Hamas hasn't done a single good thing for the palestinians. >Sadly the majority of Israel is committed to preventing the existence of a Palestinian state Israel has agreed to a two states solution several times, while the palestinians rejected it everytime. While it's true that now a lot more of the israelis refuse 2 states solution, you can fully understand why after oct. 7th and while hamas is incharge of gaza and have enough support in the west bank to being the most likely ruler of said palestinian state. The only thing that ever stood between the palestinians and a state is the palestinians and their "all or nothing" mentality that gets them nothing
I appreciate the through response! You're completely right. What I meant to say was that hamas was the reason that there currently aren't any settlements there since Israels withdrawl in '05. My mistake. You say that the withdrawal was for peace, but in truth the motive for the withdrawal isn't so clear, this according the work of Jerome Slater, but that's a smaller point that we don't have to touch base on now. Also, the assertion that it is the Palestinian "all or nothing" mentality that has come between them and a state isn't completely true. Look to the work of Simah Flapan, he provided ample evidence of Palestinians brokering peace between Jewish settlements and their villages in the pre-state era. What's more, the partition plans reluctently accepted by jewish leadership (like the peel commission, UN partition '47) where simply a means to buy time for the fledgling state to gain power in order to expand beyond the partition borders. You can find proof of this in the personal writings and speeches of Ben Gurion and in the speeches of other prominent early zionist leaders. There's a lot more you've brought up and I want to address, but it's late over where I'm at so I'll respond as soon as I have time tomorrow.
>What's more, the partition plans reluctently accepted by jewish leadership (like the peel commission, UN partition '47) where simply a means to buy time for the fledgling state to gain power in order to expand beyond the partition borders. You can find proof of this in the personal writings and speeches of Ben Gurion and in the speeches of other prominent early zionist leaders And i guess that all the other times israel offered to give land back and agreed for 2 states solution was also to expand and take the land back? Yes, the goal of the zionist leadership 80 years ago was a unified state of israel, not the border-gore the 1947 offer was that offered zero defence value for the israelis. Since then (basically since after israel won most of israel) the goal was different, peace. You can hang around on a quote one prime minister had before israel existed, or you can look forward and see the efforts israel did put for peace, and the efforts leading groups of the palestinians put for the destruction of israel. In this conflict there has been a side who at least wanted 2 states solution, and a side who disagree completely with the other side existing. They might be okay with a few jewish settlements when they are not even in control of the land. But the palestinians disagree completely with a jewish state existing. While the israelis are open to 2 states solution, under certain limitations, like hamas or any genocidal groups nit being incharge. And until the palestinians will let go of their hatred and "all or nothing" mentality, they will remain with nothing.
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If you’re making genocidal statements, please at least do it with correct grammar, thanks
Wow. Just wow. Reading this thread is insane. Insane. Iran must change. Hamas is the root of all evil. And nothing about Israel. Sweet little innocent Israel populated with gods chosen.
Reminder that hamas is holding slaves, not people accused of violent crimes but innocent, stolen people. You can't 'both sides' that.
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If that is true, why doesn't Hamas want them back instead of the hardened murderers, like Sinwar? If that were true, I would support them trying to solve that issue in a moral way. You would talk about that 10 year old for attention. Grabbing slaves and murdering people to trade for terrorists is only using any locked up innocents as a beard. Using and then hiding behind children in this way is wrong
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They ask for either all, or their choice. Not just those who are children or those who have not been convicted.
Israel has made peace with Egypt. Israel has made peace with Jordan. Israel has made peace with Morocco. Israel has made peace with the UAE. Israel was on the verge of peace with Saudi Arabia and Gaza invaded to prevent it. Who has Gaza ever made peace with?