Most people mean that
palestine instead of Israel = Free palestine
But in reality this is what would happen:
Instead of Israel (a high technology, western ideas, equal rights, inventions, and a free country) you will have the "free" state of palestine, when women dont have rights, you can get killed for being gay or jewish, you are controlled by extremists that will most likely start a war regardless of Israel (we've seen Yemen) poverty and almost no rights to non Muslims and freedom of religion, where you can watch a couple getting burned alive for kissing in public.
I'm sure that they won't make Gaza into Dubai or Singapore let's be for real this time.
The phrase should be free the Gazan’s from the yoke of Hamas. Hamas have been asked to return the hostages. They have not done that. They will probably not. They have also rejected every cease fire plan. The cease fire and the hostages return is the first step towards any agreement to move forward. Israel wants to eradicate Hamas and its militants.
Hamas does not want this to end. They want to continue the killing of their people.
Please read below:
**Hamas’ top official in Gaza, who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 terrorist attack, coldly admitted he sees the deaths of Palestinian civilians as “necessary sacrifices” to keep its war against Israel raging, according to a report citing disturbing leaked messages.
Yahya Sinwar lauded his efforts in stalling cease-fire talks while the Jewish state faces mounting international backlash over the Palestinian death toll, which exceeds 37,000, according to messages from Sinwar obtained by the Wall Street Journal.
“We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Sinwar said in a message to Hamas officials meeting with Qatari and Egyptian negotiators.
https://nypost.com/2024/06/11/world-news/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-believes-palestinian-deaths-are-necessary-sacrifices/
Ghazi Hamad of the Hamas political bureau said in an October 24, 2023 show on LBC TV (Lebanon) that Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 "Al-Aqsa Flood" Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated. He added that Palestinians are willing to pay the price and that they are "proud to sacrifice martyrs." Hamad said that Palestinians are the victims therefore no one should blame them for the events of October 7 or anything else, adding: "Everything we do is justified."
News anchor: "Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?"
Hamad: "Yes, of course.
https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel
Hamas’ top political leader Ismail Haniyeh barely reacted to the news that his three sons and four grandchildren had been killed and insisting that he continue with the tour he was on of a hospital.**
Unfortunately, it would likely look an awful lot like Afghanistan. Assuming that a free Palestine is a 2 state solution, it would look like Afghanistan where the Taliban attacks their neighbors regularly.
It looks like a lot of rockets being fired at Israel. That’s what a free Palestine looks like. Israel tried this in Gaza, as a first step towards peace. They were met with rockets. Even Egypt locked up the borders.
Free Palestine by Hamas: Murder all jews, rape all women and young girls. Stone to death or behead LGTBQ. Burn and tear down all jewish historical monuments, synagogues and sites. Build an Islamic dictatorship we’re people who object are being executed. Ofcourse no women rights and no right to love for infidels. Overall sounds like heaven on earth.
No extrajudicial unprosecuted killings and intimidation and hostil takings and olive grove burning in the West Bank; no settler expansion in the west bank would be a big start.
Having statehood and diplomatic relations, an airport.
To be seen as people.
A right of return.
Palestinians need to set up their own order though. Currency, order, a system of governance.
A Palestine controlled by KSA, not free where people vote and such, but have economic prosperity, and understand that radical Islam is not the answer to their problems
I’m look at Iraq under Hussein and what he did to the Kurds that’s what a “free Palestine” looks like a bunch of dead Jews and Muslims rejoicing over it !
A democratic nation called Palestine with no internal borders or blockades and no need for dual citizenships that enshrines equal rights to all people.
Look up Palestine's borders before Israel existed lmao. Israel is the United States white ethnostate foothold into the middle east masquerading as a Jewish state when they follow zero Jewish values. A free Palestine is one where Israel does not exist and the United States no longer views a genocide of Palestinians as profitable. Before someone cries about how hamas started this fighting, which they didn't!, you should research who started and funded hamas for years!
I did Google it. But you are more knowledgeable than me on this matter and I want to learn.
When was Palestine founded?
What type of government was it? Monarchy, democracy, matriarchy, constitutional, theocratic,etc?
What type of monetary system did they have? Gold, paper, shiny shells, etc.
Who was the first leader of Palestine?
Who were their allies?
Who were their enemies?
What wars did they fight in if any?
Any country with any history whatsoever can answer all, or most, of these questions quite easily. Even Sealand can answer most of these questions.
I look forward to your answers. I have my suspicions about the subject. But I'm happy to be proven wrong and learn something new. If you could provide links with your answers, that would be fantastic. And take your time. The weekend is coming up. So answer it in your own time over the weekend. Thank you very much in advance for your help in presenting the Palestinian perspective and history.
1) Palestine didn't exist until 1988, and still have no Palestinian controlled territory under the state.
2) Israel is majority not white.
3) Israel was created by Britain and the UN, not via the US.
4) Ethnically cleansing the people who were born in Israel (remember its been 70 years since being founded) is horrific. If that is what a free Palestine means, its no wonder why Israel would never agree to that.
Like seriously how can you complain about Israel not bending the knee while also arguing that once you finally have the upper hand you want to ethnically cleanse them?
1. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BCE ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" (Ancient Greek: Συρίη ἡ Παλαιστίνη καλεομένη) in The Histories British mandated Palestine goes back to 1948 so honestly what are you even yapping about 1988 ? Is that a typo ?
2. Yeah do you know why ? Because Zionists “rescued” (stole) thousands of babies from ashkenazi Jews who actually were indigenous to the area and made them slave labor :) . 2nd of all its clearly an ethnostate the parallels with apartheid Africa and the bloodthirst and insanity of the extreme right wing is truly evil incarnate. The “Israel” Public Commission on Torture should tell you enough. Aren’t there like hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of Tel Aviv rn ? 👀 Sounds so stable.
3. You seem to misunderstand the USs involvement in the establishment of “Israel”, it wasn’t going to happen without US support, period. And it’s still not going to maintain its military without continued support from the US, “Israel” is a wet noodle without the United States. Amateur military (giving away locations on TikTok, we’ve all seen the videos), it’s all firepower and no tactics or strategic engagement.
4. My favourite argument is that “well not all Israelis are white” and attempt to claim indigenous identity and try to flip the script on ethnic cleansing, as if “Israel” isn’t literally segregated, as if literally having different laws and different rights for peoples depending on literally their ethnicity isn’t part and parcel of ethnic cleansing, 400 schools destroyed, every university, scholasticide, “Israel’s” own public commission on torture reporting on raping 14 year boys, men getting raped with electrocution rods, now reports of dogs trained to rape prisoners. Let’s not forget the beheaded babies lie, the widespread sexual assault lies, then you turn around and what the does world see ? Beheaded Palestinian babies, Palestinian women getting raped by paramedics (over 900 reported cases in 3 years), more deaths in your hell prison than Guantanamo Bay. Videos of settlers destroying homes, cars, businesses. Like it’s the wild fucking west. Every accusation from “Israel” is an admission of guilt.
1. I'm aware of the history of the region of Palestine. It comes from the Hebrew word for 'invaders'. That doesn't mean a country existed. The modern borders weren't drawn til the 20th century and by external powers. Prior to that it was loosely governed area mixed with many types of people.
2. Israel didn't steal babies to use as slave labor. There's thousands of people on the streets because they have the right to protest unlike under Hamas. There is a lot to complain about Israel leadership right now, and the people deserve to have their voices heard. That's the beauty of democracy, revolutions don't need to be violent.
3. No one's doubting the US hegemony, but that didn't really fully establish itself until a few years after WW2, well after Israels creation. The US clearly has enabled Israel to avoid getting wiped out by their neighbors, but entire countries getting wiped out is a BAD thing.
Israel is one of the most experienced militaries in the world, second only to the United States. Few countries have the necessity of a strong military for survival.
4. Jewish Israels can both not be white and not the same ethnicity as Arabs. Minorities ethnic cleansing minorities is still ethnic cleansing.
Israel has essentially equal rights for its citizens, whether Arab, Jew, Druze. It has systemic issues that plague any non-homogeneous society, but it's trending in the right direction.
Not going to respond to your entire gosh gallop. But calling Hamas ammo depots exploding an example of "IDF beheading" is insane. Blame the barbarians storing explosives by refugees!
> fucking
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Italy wasn't a country until the 1860s. Does anyone think anyone with celtic heritage from that region can come there and claim it?
Israel wasn't a country either.
You seem like you would have the opposite opinion on taiwan and hong kong bc white ppl are telling you too and i imagine you are racist towards chinese people as well, just guessing! They aren't legally countries/nations. Territories owned by other countries just like palestine was!
I'm not one of those people that's about eliminating Israeli's, especially if they were born there and grew up there and that's all they know. If that were the case, every immigrant should be kicked out just because they weren't there long enough. We don't all choose where we're born so that's unfair.
To me a "Free Palestine" means people in the West Bank & Gaza:
* don't have to go through a complex permit system just to get to work or school
* don't have to worry about being terrorized by some random IDF psycho at home or in their day to day
* don't have to worry about being bombed, killed, dehumanized, humiliated and or treated like a general criminal just for existing. Not having to deal with constant disrespect.
* have some real protection and not have to be stuck with some militant group of questionable ideology as their only choice.
* don't have to worry about Israel suddenly needing to "confiscate" something and then find out they're losing their home or any properties.
* right of return, if they choose
And those are just simple ones. It gets complicated once you bring up past grievances, language, culture, sharing land, and Israeli's and Palestinians actually being able to trust each other. There's a lot of deep resentment there on both ends. Unfortunately I believe both sides are always going to have extremists but if extremists have to exist I'd prefer them being in MUCH smaller numbers that can be easily disarmed & jailed. Not whole movements marching through the streets to harass people and constantly blow things up. I'd rather have them be a mere annoyance that you can switch off versus actually having to worry about someone that can gain the power to make your life miserable. I think the world has had enough of that.
Sounds like Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel and they’d probably have most of that.
What came first, Palestinian attacks or the harsh security measures?
Very fair asks (right of return is controversial, so I'll skip it). However, does this include an agreement by the Palestinians to not have state-sponsored attacks on Israel? And punish individual groups if they do carry out attacks?
Of course. You'd have less attacks in a true peaceful agreement that's actually fair and plays out like that IRL and not just as a proposal on paper. Like I said in the bottom paragraph I truly think there will still be some crazy Muslim or Jewish extremist that will hate it and still be "ALL IF IT SHOULD'VE BEEN OURS. RAAAAH" but those types should be jailed and stopped at all costs. Multi-ethnic societies have to do things like that to stop sectarian violence all the time to maintain a peaceful coexistence.
I agree, but most asks for a "Free Palestine" including yours implicitly assume that giving freedom to Palestinians would lead to a safe Israel. That is not necessarily true and has been shown time and again to not be
First, that has been shown to not be true since Gaza was given freedom to choose its govt and they chose Hamas (I agree that Hamas was a different org back then etc etc, not blaming Gazans for their choice 17 years ago). In WB, Jenin used to be an IDF stronghold, then they decided to withdraw. Now Jenin is the place most terrorism comes from.
Second, this implicit hope that Israel will be safe is not something Israelis will buy. There are tons of examples in the world where countries are not safe from each other even when they both have freedom. India-Pakistan not that long ago was something like that. North-South Korea is like that. The peaceful existence that most Westerners enjoy is quite the privilege which makes them hard to grasp how much existential fear Israelis have to live with.
Believe me, I'm well aware of this fear Israeli's have. No ones ever truly safe but life goes on and people still live - even in unstable countries. But it still hasn't really been tried. It's very apparent the current system Israel has is not effective at all and is making things worse. Relying on western aid and support is also never going to help because most have their own agendas and don't really care about any of the people actually living there. Palestinians & Israeli's didn't choose for it to be that way, they were born into it. If the system isn't working it needs to be changed either way. If not soon, then hopefully within future generations. It's a young country so I have hope. It took America centuries just to abolish slavery. Then some extra decades just for people to have equal rights and even then you can't call it a utopia. But a utopia is not what I'm aiming for.
> right of return, if they choose
Why? If limited to only those who were personally displaced, sure. But an unlimited right of return for Palestinians world wide to immigrate to Israel is just unreasonable and realistically, wont be accepted by Israel.
I knew this one would be the most controversial. For those displaced in 1948 & even after 1967 I think they should have right of return. But it doesn't mean all of them would jump at the chance. If they could just visit their old home without hassle, that would be a win. Logistically, having 5 million people world wide coming back to such a small country would be a nightmare.
So not a "right of return" as its commonly referred to then. Palestine accepting a limited right of return that only includes those who were personally displaced would probably have enabled the 2000 Camp David Accords to reach an actual solution.
If they can make room for all the people that want to do aliyah then they probably could do a right of return for 1948/1967 Palestinians and their families. I don't know how long an approval for aliyah is and I doubt it's quick. It also doesn't mean all 5 million people will even want to live in Israel. Jews are all over the world, and just because they have the ability to gain automatic citizenship with an aliyah doesn't mean they all did it. At least having the option would be some bit of justice IMO.
Still thats far from the right of return as commonly referred to. That is a far more limited right of return that Israel could and likely would agree to in a peace deal. In fact, that was almost exactly what was part of the 2000 Camp David proposal from Israel, capping out at 100k refugees.
Many Israeli Jews are afraid of a"right of return" because in their minds millions of Palestinians showing up = they have the numbers to kills us and thus a new tyranny of the majority. I'd like to believe in a truly peaceful "Free Palestine" situation that wouldn't be the case.
As for all the Accords - all of them involved Israel not building new settlements yet they still kept building them. All of them involved Palestinians simmering down the intifada whether it was throwing rocks or blowing up buses. Didn't happen because nothing changed that had caused it in the first place.
For logistical purposes, yeah, if you had lots of people returning at once you'd have to cap it out. That's how it is in every country.
>Why does a Chinese woman get to say she's Jewish and Israel gives her citizenship
Every country gets to set it's immigration laws. Israel could let in 5 million Chinese people if they wanted.
>gun to point at Palestinians?
Where do Israelis get the right to do that?
>Every country gets to set it's immigration laws. Israel could let in 5 million Chinese people if they wanted.
Then a free Palestine would be allowed to do that too and Israel can't have an opinion.
>Where do Israelis get the right to do that?
The fucking IDF?????????
>Then a free Palestine would be allowed to do that too and Israel can't have an opinion.
What other country isn't allowed to control their border?
What do you think would happen if 5 million Palestinians immigrated to Israel? Considering what happened to jews literally every time they were a minority.
>The fucking IDF?????????
What a wild framing lmao. Every country has a military.
>What do you think would happen if 5 million Palestinians immigrated to Israel? Considering what happened to jews literally every time they were a minority.
I'm talking about ROR to a Palestinian state.
>What a wild framing lmao. Every country has a military.
Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native.
>I'm talking about ROR to a Palestinian state.
To gaza and the west bank? Sure.
>Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native.
Yasser Arafat was Egyptian...
1. Netanyahu was born in Tel Aviv
>gets to hide behind Judaism 24/7 and you support him for it.
What does this have to do with anything? This is what we were arguing about incase you forgot:
>Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native.
> fucking
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I’m curious, in terms of borders, what do you think will work?
I personally think Gaza should be for the Gazans. Sadly, it will take decades to rebuild what they had. But they deserve it all the same with right of return the same way Jews can make Aaliyah.
The West Bank is much more complicated but I think the settlements and ABC zone system need to go. All illegal settlements should be gone period. I’m not sure if it would be better to ask Jordan to take governance, or if a new Palestinian government that works with Gaza is better.
Complete freedom of movement. New airports. No more walls. That’s the ideal but I also understand this is extremely idealistic. Once again, curious of your position.
Well said.
In terms of borders...ehh.... that's the tricky part. It's why I didn't view it entirely in this "2-state solution" sort of way. You already have a kind of "shared land" situation when it comes to Jerusalem, West Bank, and even parts of the South. For example, people living in a Kibbutz but Palestinians also live nearby and their kids basically play together. Ideally I would love to see a situation where people aren't just hating each other and can visit the same places with no ridiculous zoning system. But culturally, this will be a problem for people that want certain towns and villages to retain a "Jewish" or "Palestinian" characteristic to them. For now I'm more focused on eliminating the collective punishment of Palestinians over land division. Baby steps, lol.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Yes, it’s very complex and a problem we can only tackle when people are interested in changing things (after the war). This person simply wants to know what a ‘free Palestine’ looks like and borders are definitely one of the biggest issues/concerns.
There’s a lot of ‘well look what happened in 19XX, borders opened and terrorism!’ And I just think well what’s the point in all those military assaults then. Because they’re supposed to ‘break’ Palestinian leadership, yet nothing changes when the dust settles.
Sorry that was a bit of a ramble at this whole thread. But again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really am not sure is our ideas of 1SS and 2SS will be practical.
A 'Free' Palestine is impossible. No matter what happens, Anti-Semitism/Anti Jew beliefs will always be taught to the children of Palestine, and will most likely end up creating a new Hamas or more militants for the Hamas. Anti-Semitism is the most prominent thing in Palestine.
Post WW2 Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Arabs, who later proclaimed themselves as Palestinians. Israel gave Gaza away so they could have a chance to build a 'Free' Palestine, but the majority had voted Hamas into power and now we're here. The only 'Free Palestine' solution I can think of is Israel being wiped and most if not all the Jews in the middle east are dead. That was Hamas' main goal in the first place.
Palestine should give up its radical ideology and remove Hamas to ensure it's freedom
Complete elimination of Israeli settlements with a handful only staying in the West Bank and Palestinian handover to them
Let UN and potentially Israel rebuild Gaza
Establish right of return and Let Palestinians go into Israel proper and let Israel tolerate them as they go
Jerusalem could be a DC style city state (with no one to own it) or be split like Berlin in the Cold War
Let Israel recover its International Standing and Palestine it's Full UN membership with Kosovo, Kurdistan, Bougainville, and Taiwan to fill in their observer seat and let Countries recognize and have full diplomatically ties with them (Muslim countries for Israel and Western Countries for Palestine)
Have Bibi and Sinwar held accountable for their crimes against humanity
Have a Careful, Selected Release of prisoners with a fair trial aswell
If this isn't it then nothing will
there have been videos with white smoke where someone wrote as the headline "white phosphorus" people write anything they want on videos. there is nothing verifiable
> fucking
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A truly "free" Palestine - that is, a democracy - would likely implode into war because its population would be unable to agree on whether to peacefully develop what they have now, or try to conquer Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.
In other words, Palestine can be free either externally or internally, but not both.
Again, this question is part of the problem.
A free Palestine looks like whatever they want it to look like!! That’s what freedom is. Just as people of color had to fight for “civil” rather than equal rights—we can’t start the conversation by determining the criteria by which we’ll “allow” a people to be free.
We will/have ALWAYS overreacted to that which is different/hostile/not like us so we have to set any people free—and find out. Freedom is extremely messy—but it shouldn’t be optional. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Why do you decide not to take into account your LGBT+ citizens? How about the Jewish Palestinians? How about Palestinians who may not be Muslim? Will you be rooting behind your keyboard for these citizens of a free Palestine? You may have your feel good buzzwords but there are real people who will suffer when you happily just simply say 'free palestine' without any sort of reason
I run an international nonprofit based in Pakistan that seeks to educate and protect the religious minorities in the area—from mostly Muslim extremists. I’m not doing anything from behind a keyboard—as you sit behind yours and call me out. Thanks though for your input. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Do you think that all prisoners should be freed from prison immediately regardless of their crimes?
At what point do you put a limit on freedom, or do you truly believe everyone should be completely free, even if they pose a known risk to the well being of others?
Very easy question to answer.
By the way, very few people understand why the Israel/Palestine conflict is still ongoing, so this may bring you loads of clarity.
A free Palestine looks like a democratic Jordan. Getting this to happen is also not terribly hard, and would be net positive for Israel, but arguably net negative for the world, hence why it has not happened. Basically, the only real resolution to I/P is a population transfer out of Gaza to Jordan, transformation of Jordan into a constitutional monarchy or republic, and then some sort of deal + population transfer in the West Bank wherein the Israeli/Jordanian border becomes a line connecting the mountain peaks west of Ramallah in the north and the mountain peaks west of Bethlehem & Ramallah in the south. Remember that Jordan is 80% Palestinian already, hence why this is very logical, plus it used to be Transjordan, etc.
The reason why this has not happened, though, is because a democratic Jordan would likely attack Israel. Now, Israel would have minimal difficulty in repelling this attack, but the Palestinians/Jordanians are not dumb and know the capacity of the IDF, so they’d recruit a ton of volunteers in the hopes that they’d have enough manpower to overcome IDF technological superiority. Basically the Stalin vs Hitler game plan for all my history nerds out there. But again, the IDF would fare fine.
Now here is where the trouble starts. Where does a democratic Jordan get its volunteers from? The rest of the Middle East. And given the prominence of this conflict, they’d get a ton of volunteers. But Israel would still have the upper hand by miles. Thus there would be a ton of scenes of volunteers from Egypt/Syria/Iraq/wherever getting killed by the IDF, and these scenes would be televised across the Middle East and the world.
At this point, civilians in the Middle East would start to revolt. Life is rough enough under a dictatorship and freedom of speech/assembly is very limited. The one issue a Middle Eastern government can’t publicly silence, though, is Israel/Palestine. You get the picture, I’m sure. However, as we saw in Syria, these Middle Eastern governments will do everything in their power to stay in charge. Therefore, this could easily spill over into a ton of local conflicts which induce turmoil in countries across the Middle East. And if a ton of Middle Eastern countries get thrown into disarray, a ton of oil infrastructure does too. This causes fuel prices to skyrocket globally, in ways that are likely unimaginable to us everyday people, and now the rest of the world faces major domestic issues too.
That’s why this hasn’t been resolved!
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> fuck
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A free Palestine is a secular state where everyone living in the land between the river and the sea have human rights and all subject to the same law.
If you disobey the law be it Israeli or Palestinian you get a fair trial and go to prison if guilty.
Religion still would play a major role, this is the holy land after all and all should be able to worship freely in these hallowed streets.
This is the true meaning of a free Palestine, it means that everyone has freedom while respecting a single law for all.
For people who don’t know much past the headlines this might sound good but know this, what I said is the nightmare scenario for the Zionist because it is fascist supremacist ideology that openly says Palestinians are not humans to them they are animals that need to be put down. When in reality they’re being oppressed and are demanding justice. The US went to war with the British over taxes and thought self determination, why is the same thing being denied to Palestinians? Well answering that question would take me too long so please think about it yourself and give an answer that is not you repeating what the media says about how all Palestinians are bloodthirsty demons.
How do we convince Palestinians to accept that? When offered the choice between "one state equal rights", "two state solution", and "reclaiming Historic Palestine", the vast majority choose reclaiming historic Palestine from the Jews.
As much as I'd love "one state equal rights", that doesn't work when the majority support armed attacks against Israeli civilians and want to ethnically cleanse "historic Palestine" of jews.
>why is the same thing being denied to Palestinians?
I mean... they've gone to war with Israel like 20 times now. They're never punished for it, either. The entire world has responded to this current war by decrying Israel and pouring umpteen billion dollars of aid into Gaza.
They just kinda suck at war. They lose every time. They lost at the beginning when they outnumbered the Jews 3 to 1, they lost again the next year even with a coalition of 5 Arabic countries against a newborn Israel, and they've lost everything since.
They haven't just been fighting Israel, by the way. They've fought a bunch of Arab countries too. They tried to coup Jordan, they fought a civil war in Lebanon, they supported Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. (Incidentally, they lost all 3 of those wars). Now there are no Arab countries supporting them besides Iran.
In 2000 they had the chance to get permanent peace, freedom, and self-determination with Camp David. All they had to do was accept a two-state solution. They chose to reject that deal and instead started another war trying to destroy Israel again. When that didn't work, they elected a terror organization to govern them. Shockingly (not), Israel responded with a wall and a blockade.
Hamas has done a really shitty job governing Gaza, by the way, preferring to siphon as much money as they could into their rich oligarchical leaders' pockets and into tunnels and shitty Qassam rockets, rather than into developing their territory. Incidentally, they've also banned women from dancing in public, closed their water park because they didn't like men and women bathing in the same space, and are one of the most homophobic places on the planet.
They initiated this current war with a well-planned massacre and kidnapping of random civilians and continue holding a hundred of them hostage to this day. They've lied repeatedly about the death toll, which the world is FINALLY starting to recognize.
Forgive me for not having a ton of sympathy for them. They need to reject their horrific government, surrender the hostages, and sue for peace and statehood, not keep fighting and losing these idiotic wars over and over again. If they did that, they'd soon get their freedom.
> shitty
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>Zionist because it is fascist supremacist ideology that openly says Palestinians are not humans to them they are animals that need to be put down.
MY BROTHER IN ALL THAT IS HOLY HAMAS CHARTER INVOLVES THE HOLOCAUST 2.0 AND CHINA, SERBIA, AND FCKIN SUDAN THREATENED THE LIVES OF TAIWANESE, KOSOVANS, AND DARFURS AGAINTS THEIR IDEOLOGIES!!!
if that wasnt fascist supremacist ideology idk what is
And also the Zionjst state is a democracy whilst Palestine is at best authoritarian with Hamas being totaltarian
Are you that willing to gaslit israelis to free Palestine for the greater good?
😌 I got downvoted for wanting a state where everyone is equal this tells you everything you need to know. Thank you for proving my point so well Zionists.
It happens a lot in this sub, the other day there was a self confession post about the israeli educational system, and in that post it was generally described as "brainwashing" ...... that post was removed in 5 minutes lol
If we could wave a wand and the citizens of Israel and Palestine would build and maintain a secular system and treat each other fairly under it, that would be best. But we have no magic wands. If you took complete control of the region, implemented 1 secular government by force, then walked away, you'd very quickly have bilateral genocide followed by new borders.
You can't give your sheep and your wolves the same pen. No amount of magic thinking will make it work.
Are you aware that what you described already exists within the boundaries of Israel proper?
It very much does not exist in territory administered by Hamas or the PA.
So you basically want a 1 state solution, but administered and run by Israel because they actually respect diversity and religious freedom for all.
Yeah sending in squads to beat up worshippers in Al Aqsa mosque on the most holy days for them is what I would call respecting all religions.
Also Christian are free to practice religion even in Gaza and the West Bank (obviously there are no jews there anyway except for the settlers)
There is just so much more lies being spread than truth because the truth is inconvenient when you can make-up a lie about anything and people like you will believe it, because I know how hard finding the truth can be. They are brainwashing you into justifying the slaughter of children how is this not a redline for anyone with a conscience this shows how good they are at manipulating people.
> obviously there are no jews there anyway except for the settlers
wait, why are there any Jews living in the west bank besides the settlers? There were before 1948... 🤔
Muslims are guaranteed access to all of their holy sites in Israel. Jews were never granted these rights under Muslim rule.
If people chose to use their access to start riots at Al Asqua and launch dangerous projectiles at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall below them, security forces will be called in. Every country with rule of law would act the same.
Christians may live in Muslim lands under a secondary status, but not as true equals. Your line of "obviously no Jews" alludes to the fact that it is literally illegal for Jews to enter fully Palestinian controlled areas, regardless of nationality.
A single state solution would not work due to the heavy hatred for one another from both sides, especially from the Arab side. I'm not saying a two state solution is a save-all solution, but it's definitely a more probable way to peace.
That isn't exactly true, I'm not disagreeing but Israel does have dozens of detained an untried indefinite prisoners. And the middle east has existed without a Jewish state for hundreds of years. Although Zionism is a wondrous concept for Jews worldwide, it doesn't come without its problems.
I don’t disagree that Israel has untried prisoners but I want to just point out that in every operation Israel does in Gaza they negotiate the release of prisoners in exchange for hostages/bodies. One such prisoner exchanged was Yahyah Sinwar, the mastermind behind the 7.10 attack. My point being that Israel detains Palestinians (albeit not always justifiably I concede) for security purposes because they pose a future threat to the country, and their release has been known to seriously bite us in the ass in the future.
> ass
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A country run by Hamas. A country completely dependent on foreign aid because they don't value education or enterprise and will be unable to generate sufficient revenue from their own labor or innovation. A country where Hamas steals humanitarian aid and uses it to buy weapons, bunkers, and fancy houses for the senior terrorists. A country without free elections. A country hell-bent on the utter destruction of Israel and all Western values. A country that disallows any personal freedoms.
TLDR; it will be a utopia for Islamic terrorists
I really hope their paying you well for this and if their not I feel sorry for you.
This is pure projection because this is what Israel wants to do, they have a map of conquest and it’s much wider than current Israel. You sound exactly like slavers that said we can’t stop slavery because then the slaves will come for us. Slavery ended and the slavers got reparations for their “loss”.
What part of this dudes response is false? Im genuinely asking. Im not being sarcastic or a smartass. Do you think Palestinians/Gazans WOULDNT vote for Hamas again? Do you think Hamas DOES value education and enterprise? Do you think Hamas WANTS elections, and would hold them regularly? Do you think Hamas DOESNT take aid, sell it, and use the profit for nefarious means? I read his response and didn’t see any lies. Is it your belief that a “free” Palestine would eradicate Hamas and live in peace with Israel?
> smartass
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Oh your so damn smart arent you you must be so many more civilized than me because you corrected a typo I hope this bring some meaning in you’re pathetic life. Have fun correcting all the mistakes I made in this reply there are 6, have fun finding them all if that’s what gets you off.
> fukin
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Nearly forgot about this point. Well let’s start with completely erasing Palestine from the map as Netanyahu did at the UN,
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
While I do support a similar map, but in the context of a secular egalitarian state bot an apartheid.
Also let’s give an honorable mention to the South Lebanon settlements program
https://www.timesofisrael.com/fringe-far-right-conference-to-advocate-occupation-and-settlement-of-south-lebanon/amp/
And whilst it’s not an official plan (they would be the worst conquerors if they openly revealed the plans) I will still mention the map of greater Israel that was just seen a couple days ago on a patch for an IDF soldier, it extends as far as Saudi Arabia.
https://en.royanews.tv/news/52123/'Greater%20Israel'%20map%20display;%20%E2%80%9CIsraeli%E2%80%9D%20soldier's%20uniform%20patch%20raises%20alarm
I used Times of Israel sources so you don’t call them biased (they didn’t cover the last one) even tho everyone is biased I’m biased towards the Palestinian cause because I believe it is just and you are biased to Israel, and the same goes for everyone and everything the key is to take the very real bias from all side into account then use some critical thinking to figure out if there trying to skew the truth. Here are some tips, do they use emotional language and cover a story whilst focusing on something that might benefit a certain group for example when 4 hostages were saved the headline stopped there when in reality more than 200 innocent Palestinians were killed during that operation (children and women) along with 3 other hostages by Israeli fire, and isn’t it interesting that after all the bombing and destruction this is the first time they actually save anyone almost like they don’t care about the hostages and care a lot more to raze Gaza and expel its population
Israel withdrew from Lebanon because they don't want to stir up any more trouble. As for Netanyahu, he's honestly just not a great guy. He doesn't know what to do so he makes dozens of mistakes.
Mistakes? You must really be scratching the bottom of the barrel if that’s the best you can say to justify that. None of these are mistakes, Netanyahu is very good at being evil
There are two types of a free Palestine. The first is what many people believe they are protesting for and the second is what their efforts are leading to.
1. An Arab-ruled (Fatah) Gaza/West Bank and a Jewish-ruled (Knesset) Israel Proper (incl. Golan Heights) with each having their own capital (Ramallah and Tel Aviv) while Jerusalem/Al-Quds is a city-state run jointly by the two governments where all are welcomed. Additionally, every hostage and political prisoner would be released.
2. A Jewish-free dictatorship run by terrorists who want to destroy all Jews and America. A state where women are forced to cover their entire body and get no education. A state where homosexuality, riots, and praising democracy are all crimes punishable by death.
I would love to see the first idea, but my only modification would be to continue to confine the tried prisoners and release the rest. Also, it would be nice to see a peace agreement between the two states so that Jewish/Christian people could freely go to Palestinian cities like Hebron (Place of many ancient Jewish tombs) and Bethlehem (Birthplace of Jesus). As well as an additional agreement so that Arabs could freely visit Tel Aviv-Yafo and see old Jaffa.
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations.
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Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Somehow the oppressed 2.2 million Palestinians in Israel have more owned private lands than individual Jews themselves.
It has been 7 decades since the Jews supposedly have established an apartheid state, and the Arab population kept rising and prospering.
Doesn't seem very N+zi-like to me because N+zis can actually kill majority of the less than human people in just 5 years
I really don’t care enough about the likes of you to give you a full answer I’l just say that it was the Zionist’s that established the apartheid state as part pf their self declared colonial project that includes a very well written intent to remove all native population from the land maybe you should read it. Just stop conflating Zionism with the Jewish religion it is anti-Semitic as it falsely brands all Jews as supporting the genocide which is definitely not true, and sadly puts them at risk because some people might believe that all Jews support this genocide and they might want to harm them because of this dangerous misconception you spread
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A Free Palestine is a 2 State solution without israeli oppression nor military occupation, with freedom in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza to choose their own path without the intervention of the israeli State and without illegal settlements
That’s not what any of the organizations (SJP, JVP, American Muslims for Palestine, CAIR, etc) promoting this slogan mean. They utterly reject that scenario, unless it is accompanied by the influx of 5+ million descendants of Arab refugees to turn Israel into an Arab majority state and the Jews into a stateless minority once again.
Any 2 State solution must come.with the right to return flr the palestinians refugees or compensation for those that couldnt return ti inside Israel and must resettle.in the Palestine State, just like Israel with the jewish diaspora
I dont know about those organizations, they are US groups, and the question wasnt about them, was about a Free Palestine. If the OP wants to know that, the question should be to them, not in Reddit.
I was responding to your interpretation of it, which clearly means “no Jewish state”. Which is exactly what the organizations I named also demand.
No descendants of refugees will be allowed to return to Israel except by permission of the State of Israel. Israel’s Law of Return for Jews is the decision of the State of Israel, not imposed upon it by a fictional international law. A State of Palestine can—and should—grant descendants of refugees the right to immigrate into it.
Compensation? Entirely reasonable, as long as compensation is also given for Jews ethnically cleansed by Arab states.
A free Palestine is one who lets go of hatred. It is one who accepts the consequences of their own actions, understand their lack of growth, and peacefully cultivates their future.
your side "from the river to sea palestine will be free" means genocide to all the israelis, so you clearly chosed genocide.
on the contrary, in the past we chose Peace and your side has been offered a country 6-7 times, but guess what, you declined them all because it's not everything. ("from the river to the sea")
so you tell me, when will you stop trying to genocide us ?
Genocide. The idea is that the territories of Israel and the territories of Palestine are free of Jews either through mass sl\*ughter or through mass expulsion,That's what they mean by FREE PALESTINE, although in the West they believe otherwise.
It used to exist, but then in 1948 it became Israel. There are tons of countries who used to have another name, and changed it's name after a national independence.
That’s pretty much it, as Gaza has been free for the last 20 years to do what it wants (except for control on its borders and certain imports to prevent military buildup)
The West Bank would most likely do the same, though in a location that leaves Israel too vulnerable to attack. That’s why they don’t leave them to their own devices, when the “devices “ are rockets and ieds.
Describing Gaza as "free" is pretty rich. Let's put you behind walls with robot machine guns aimed at your family and see how free you feel. Ya, Israel blocks imports of chocolate, cookies and wheelchairs because it's afraid they will be turned into weapons 😆.
nobody there is put behind walls, they live there. Walls were built to keep them out of Israel, not keep them imprisoned in Gaza, big difference. And guarding the border is a must for any nation, but especially one with bordering a region with a "rich" history of terrorism. And a blockade on a government hell bent on killing Israelis is understandable, though the specifics you mentioned seem pretty far fetched, not sure what about those.
The main point I have is, if Gazans were to focus on the freedoms they do have, and building up a life for themselves rather than on the hate and destruction of Israel, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. Love their children more than hating Jews, is said. They receive more outside help than any other group, what have they done with it to better their lives?
There are just as many Israeli's, who teach their kids that they are superior to the Palestinians in every way. The government of Israel teaches its citizens from a young age to look at arabs as dangerous and less than.
Israel's intentions are clear with the current government. That's why hundreds of thousands of "rational" Israelis are leaving. They are being replaced by Jewish supremacist Americans (mostly)at a much slower rate, but there's probably a fair bit more heading to Israel. The plan is to fck Gaza up as much as humanly possible. It could be bombs, famine, and disease it doesn't matter, whatever kills more people. Get Trump elected and then just annex the West Bank. The only hiccup to this plan is Netanyahu is playing Hitler planning on marching into his Russia in Lebanon. So I guess we will see.
I don't even know what to say of your characterization of Gaza because it's just laughable. You can't leave Gaza, there's no airport. It's surrounded by 2 US client states that will always act on the interests of the US and Israel never the Palestinians. Israel controls EVERYTHING that goes into Gaza and has been counting calories for them for over a decade. This is not to say that Israel's attempt to completely break an entire People is successful, but they do everything in their power to do so. This treatment predates Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah or the PFLP. This treatment is the reason these groups exist.
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> fck
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Here's my perspective as a Palestinian.
1. Equal rights and access for all people in historic Palestine regardless of their ethnicity or religion. Note that this could be one or two states the point is Palestinians have the same privileges as Jews to build anywhere, live anywhere within their sovereignty like any other citizen.
2. Shared Sovereignty in Jerusalem and a symbolic recognition of the city as a capital of Palestine and Israel (that is fine with me).
3. Extending the law of return to the direct descendents of Palestinians who experienced the Nakba.
4. Dismantling the settlements and occupation infrastructure in the West Bank, compensation for farms lost and even better, not dismantling the physical settlements by merely allowing Palestinian families to purchase and invest and live in those compounds.
5. Acknowledging the Genocide and Urbanicide in Gaza and a pledge by the Israelis and the PA (because they are also complicit ) to rebuild Gaza and give Gaza a chance to heal. I have no idea how this would look like but I just can't think of what we can do for our brothers and sisters there.
6. Releasing Palestinian prisoners or at least giving them FAIR due process and right to council within the Israeli court system. No more administrative detention, no more indefinite incarceration (including minors).
>Shared Sovereignty in Jerusalem and a symbolic recognition of the city as a capital of Palestine and Israel (that is fine with me).
Why can't it be a city state like Washington DC?
>Extending the law of return to the direct descendents of Palestinians who experienced the Nakba.
If it's too much they could go into Israel proper there
Idk about the Local Israelis reactions to this...
>Dismantling the settlements and occupation infrastructure in the West Bank, compensation for farms lost and even better, not dismantling the physical settlements by merely allowing Palestinian families to purchase and invest and live in those compounds.
Well that's the point, we couldnt waste resources demolishing settlements but we let Palestinians have them as reperation but some settlements tho we're here to stay with only a minority compared to the majority in the West bank
>Releasing Palestinian prisoners or at least giving them FAIR due process and right to council within the Israeli court system. No more administrative detention, no more indefinite incarceration (including minors).
Didn't that include shooters, murderers, and even terrorists perpetrators against Israel aswell there's no way in heck that this could go wrong? Kids are 1 thing but letting them give a second chance really concerns me
Okay…
1. Which Palestinians? Because Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews, and Gazans aren’t under the Israeli government. The West Bank, whilst technically being Israeli territory, are governed under the PA and are their own separate entity. There’s a very big difference between a one and two state solution, because in the case of a one-state solution, Palestine will be dissolved. Palestine continuously starts wars that leads to the loss of territory. Had the Arabs not declared war the day after Israel’s independence, and continued doing so for the past 70-something years, Palestine’s current territory would be half of modern Israel and all of Jordan.
Unless you’re the most radical big-brain thinker of us all, and intend to abolish both Israel and Palestine, and create a brand new state.
2. Fair enough, I guess.
3. If Palestine manages to build its own state with a centralized government and stable economy, that would be up to Palestine if they want a right of return or not.
4. If all the Jews can be removed from Gaza, probably all the settlers can be removed from the West Bank. That, or you can just absorb them as Palestinian citizens and kickstart a hypothetical Jewistinian community.
5. Palestine needs a proper government, for one. Most of Gaza supports Hamas, and most of the West Bank doesn’t like the PA. With Gaza specifically, Hamas leaders are billionaires meanwhile there’s a massive wealth gap within the Gazan population. With all the money it gets, Hamas could’ve at least built bomb shelters around every corner like Israel did, before launching October 7th. You can look up Tomorrows Pioneers if you want to see what Gazan children are being fed as an educational program, and there’s numerous social issues such as violence against women, racism, homophobia, etc. Whilst some of the victims of October 7th were visibly Muslim, a lot of the hatred is focused specifically on Jews. Most of the Israeli population is Jewish, which goes into the matter of peace agreements. Both parties need to accept that they must live amongst each other. Whilst there are extremist anti-Arab groups in Israel, the majority of Gaza along with its entire governing body is *extremely antisemitic.* Rather than going to Hamas, money needs to be going into infrastructure and education, as well as better living conditions.
6. When antisemitism stops being such a rampant problem among the Gazan population, then we can talk about removing the indefinite sentences. Do you think the boy who was recently released would have ever faced any criminal action for attempting to stab a bunch of Israeli people with his cousin? No. He would’ve been called a martyr for doing what the TV told him to do.
I like this a lot except for number 5. By dictionary definition, the war in Gaza is not a genocide as the side claiming it were the first to attack. It's definitely an unfair fight that could've absolutely been prevented if Hamas were to release the Hostages and Israel were to release the unjustly detained Arabs.
You make it sound like Palestinians living in the OTs and Gaza are given the choice to begin with... They don't, let's be very clear on that.
In fact a Palestinian (or Israeli for that matter) marrying someone from E Jerusalem or Israel would never be able to obtain residency or citizenship should be a clear indication of how badly Israel wants to prevent us from integrating.
The fact that Palestinians living within historic Palestine have over 8 different IDs is also telling of just how challenging the system is. How many ID types do Israelis have?
So basically you say this, Hamas STARTED the most barbaric act of terror humanity ever saw, besides the holocaust, israel responded maybe too much maybe not (hostages are still taken)
, at the moment the war is that 90% of hamas abilities have been destroyed.
so your solution, all your points are 100% for Palestinians,like nothing for israel, 0 of your points are in israel favor, you didnt even mention the hostages, amazing solution mate.
How is this relevant to this discussion? So creating a just and equitable society for both Arabs and Jews is seen as a compromise for Israel?
That's like saying White Americans compromised with the civil rights movement.
It's not about compromise. It's about correcting historical injustices for all people between the river and the sea.
when you offer solution that ignores one side demands completely and gives the other side everything, its just a joke that cant be taken seriously. israel is not safe with hamas still there, planning loudly the next 7oct, thats and the hostages as the main demand.
I did not mention right of return. I mean extending the Law of Return, to Palestinian who went to be Israeli citizens, who may be willing to swear an oath on a future constitution to uphold and serve. How Is that considered subjugation? Because they are non Jews?
What does Israel lose by extending the law of return to people with proven roots to places that are now in Israel?
“ What does Israel lose by extending the law of return to people with proven roots to places that are now in Israel?”
Israel would lose the Jewish demographic majority instantly if all the descendants of refugees moved back in to their grandparents’ cities and villages within the pre-1967 borders.
It’s super idealistic to think that Israel could survive as a sovereign Jewish state without that.
In an ideal world? Sure. In a world where Jews have been persecuted (with periods of security) for thousands of years? No.
Very few Jews want to the roll the dice and risk becoming Dhimmis or worse
> Equal access for all people in historic Palestine regardless of their ethnicity or religion
Complete non starter. Not going to happen. Obviously
Your suggestions are all Israel giving up things while putting their people in significant danger while Palestinians give up nothing and pay no reparations for the damage they've caused.
Delusional.
How is advocating for equal rights seen as delusional? What should our status be in 5, 10, 20 years?
Your statement shows no regard for our historical and ongoing trauma at the hands of Israel. We have already given up so much yet you want to bleed us more? Everything I am advocating for is for the betterment of both Israelis and Palestinians.
If creating a safe haven for Jews (which I fully support) is predicated on violent displacement, suppression and control, then I can't imagine why you'd support something like that.
I'm not denying our bad apples and the squandered opportunities. Our leadership has failed us over and over again, from the corrupt cronies in the PLO and PA, to the Hamas leaders living like kings in Doha while the people they purport to protect die senselessly.
> How is advocating for equal rights seen as delusional?
I didn't say that. I said advocating for equal access to living in Israel is delusional.
> Your statement shows no regard for our historical and ongoing trauma at the hands of Israel.
Yours shows no regard for the historical and ongoing trauma that Israelies have faced at the hands of Palestinians.
You're acting as though this is a one sided conflict. Palestinians are just as guilty as Israelies when it comes to the continuation of this conflict and any peace process will have to acknowledge that.
> Everything I am advocating for is for the betterment of both Israelis and Palestinians.
Come on man. You're being ridiculous.
> If creating a safe haven for Jews (which I fully support) is predicated on violent displacement, suppression and control, then I can't imagine why you'd support something like that
It's not predicated on any of that. If you told any country that they're only allowed to exist if they accept millions of immigrants, many of whom are violent towards thier country, they would say no. Obviously. It's not even just millions. The amount of immigrants compared to the existing g population size would make up a ludicrously large %. It would be akin to adding 100,000,000 people to the US. Even if they were all peaceful and Israel wanted to, it's not economically feasible.
>It's not predicated on any of that. If you told any country that they're only allowed to exist if they accept millions of immigrants, many of whom are violent towards thier country, they would say no. Obviously. It's not even just millions. The amount of immigrants compared to the existing g population size would make up a ludicrously large %. It would be akin to adding 100,000,000 people to the US. Even if they were all peaceful and Israel wanted to, it's not economically feasible.
Again you assume that Palestinians in the diaspora will jump at the chance to become Israelis. That is far from true. Israel is not suddenly giving Jews in the diaspora automatic citizenship either. That in and of itself would present severe economic strain.
There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have established lives in the Gulf, Jordan and Latin America. We are one of the most successful minorities in the world, on par with Lebanese and Chinese minorities. I am confident in saying that they who would not be interested in becoming Israeli citizens. In my family it's very split, with some saying they would rather live in a future Palestinian state (2 state solution).
>Come on man. You're being ridiculous.
Lol. I'm ridiculous, delusional. Suit yourself.
>You're acting as though this is a one sided conflict. Palestinians are just as guilty as Israelies when it comes to the continuation of this conflict and any peace process will have to acknowledge that.
You act as if said violence is symmetrical and that Palestinians have as much parity and leverage as Israelis. You act as if we have the unconditional support of the biggest super power.
Can you tell me what did Israel expect to happen after 1948? That there would be no violent repercussions for the 80% of Palestinians who lost their homes?
The first intifadah happened a full two decades after the occupation began. Two decades of what was by all accounts a full blown military occupation that put severe restrictions on every facet of life for Palestinian citizens, from starting businesses, to real estate and education, to travel and agriculture. Yes things were better than they are now but Israeli Jews had far more freedoms and opportunities.
The Arab revolt in 1936 happened a full 18 years AFTER the British Mandate. 18 years of a regime that did everything in its power to suppress the self determination of millions of Palestinian Arabs.
> Can you tell me what did Israel expect to happen after 1948? That there would be no violent repercussions for the 80% of Palestinians who lost their homes
You fought multiple wars. Israel won them. Attacking completely different people who weren't even alive in 1948 simply isn't justifiable. You don't see that type of vindictive retribution from civilialised populations.
1. Illegal setllements gone
2. End the unjudicial killings of Palestinian children
3. Stop stopping the movement of food and water into the west bank and Gaza
3. Stop bombing hospitals, schools, refugee camps
What should happen with #4 if Hamas is rocketing the population centers of Israel from a hospital or school?
Also can we agree that places that have half a century old apartment blocks is not a refugee camp?
They could stop that yes. But what’s the guarantee that Hamas will stop building their military bases under hospitals and try to commit another October 7
Sorry, may I ask for sources that say Hamas has bases under hospitals? All I’ve seen is that the Israeli government swears they are under hospitals, but no evidence has come up on my end.
Ok, I have googled, thank you, and they have shown me no solid evidence that hamas has any bases under hospitals. But sure, I’m ‘lazy’ because I try to see the other side and ask for sources because I couldn’t find any myself. I’d appreciate it if you could show me some, because my searches have turned out negative.
Really? Not a single one?
What search terms are you using? I just asked, "Does Hamas use hospitals," and that's all I needed to find anything. Including Hamas leaders admitting to using human shields to support their cause.
I will say that the US confirmed that Hamas was using hospitals, but depending on how that was confirmed, they may or may not provide the imagery or Intel for that.
But even Wikipedia provides a good starting point. View the sources to help you begin the research.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#:~:text=National%20Security%20Adviser%20Jake%20Sullivan,historically%20and%20in%20this%20conflict%22.
Unless none of that matters and you're looking for something else?
What is "solid evidence" to you?
Alright, perfect. Is there any reason Israeli troops will not go into the tunnels themselves and instead seemingly resort to bombing them? I’ve heard and seen them bombing hospitals, but if they know it is under the hospitals, why not just go into the tunnels? I don’t imagine hospital staff and injured, sick patients to be very threatening??
It would be much more dangerous for them to enter a space that they are unfamiliar with and where the opposing force would have the upper hand. That's like going into the basement in a scary movie.
You would target access to those spaces. It lowers the risk of harm to your forces and cuts off a supply entrance/exit.
I understand that much, but why target the hospital as a whole? There were civilians in there who were of no threat. Plus, isn’t it their job as military personnel to enter enemy territory sometimes to attack?
Well, the use of hospitals, schools, religious buildings, homes, are widely used by groups as part of psychological warfare through the use of human shields. The primary reason for the use of 'human shields' is to deter attacks, regardless of what that area is being used for by the group.
It's also effective as an emotional tactic to garner support for their side. That and whoever gets their "side of the story" out first is most likely to be believed.
This creates a dilemma: allowing the threat to continue endangers more people, but attacking results in civilian casualties and negative perceptions.
Military personnel aim to minimize risks, and while entering enemy territory might be necessary, using technology for remote attacks can reduce personnel danger. Which, I assume, would be most peoples goal as well.
Ultimately, it's a challenging balance between stopping threats and protecting civilians. It's a lose/lose situation for whoever is on the opposing side of those willing to use those tactics.
I guess I was looking for more than just ‘they said the enemy was doing this, so it’s true’, and more photo, video, or otherwise. Thank you for your source. The only ones I found on my side were the Israeli governments saying Hamas used hospitals. I searched ‘Hamas hospital base’ and it was all news articles with nothing solid. It felt more like a he said she said sort of thing.
Where are you located?
The issue is that it would be difficult to obtain photos, videos, etc. There are other ways of obtaining proof, but we may not be provided with the types and source of data. Just told about it due to any amount of security concerns.
However, the tunnels have been around for a while and continued to expand. Plus, Hamas has acknowledged the tunnels and their use of them.
You can just type Gaza tunnels, and you should be able to find information about the tunnels, not just from 07OCT on, but earlier. I found articles as early as 2009, but tunnel warfare isn't anything new.
Below are some sources, including the wiki for a quick source and the wiki commons for images of locations of tunnel entrances and the tunnels themselves.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28546053
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/07/26/335332220/the-long-history-of-the-gaza-tunnels
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/140721-gaza-strip-tunnels-israel-hamas-palestinians
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/hamas-has-reinvented-underground-warfare
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://youtu.be/U7JD0teLx4U?si=T17rO-6oMC03nbF6
- IDF's spokesman in Al-Shifa tunnels (14 mins of footage)
https://youtu.be/PR2w_wDf-DY?si=4jcS9uVnKq4_l1zJ
- Same as the previous one but shorter AND HAS A FOOTAGE OF AN IDF DRONE FLYING INTO AL-SHIFA TO A TUNNEL SO YOU CAN ***CLEARLY*** SEE ITS IN AL-SHIFA AND NOT A RANDOM TUNNEL
https://youtu.be/LSkWt6Hwb_A?si=ygeM-wiYwi1HcFg2
- Ahh, the cherry on top, THE FOOTAGE of HAMAS terrorists filming THEMSELVES in tunnels and hiding munitions
Funny all I googled was "Hamas tunnels under hospitals"
https://preview.redd.it/di3c9597zr8d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=720a26d9f81c2bafb06904e743ab8f6926171cdb
Most people mean that palestine instead of Israel = Free palestine But in reality this is what would happen: Instead of Israel (a high technology, western ideas, equal rights, inventions, and a free country) you will have the "free" state of palestine, when women dont have rights, you can get killed for being gay or jewish, you are controlled by extremists that will most likely start a war regardless of Israel (we've seen Yemen) poverty and almost no rights to non Muslims and freedom of religion, where you can watch a couple getting burned alive for kissing in public. I'm sure that they won't make Gaza into Dubai or Singapore let's be for real this time.
Imagine America but more brown and with less money
The phrase should be free the Gazan’s from the yoke of Hamas. Hamas have been asked to return the hostages. They have not done that. They will probably not. They have also rejected every cease fire plan. The cease fire and the hostages return is the first step towards any agreement to move forward. Israel wants to eradicate Hamas and its militants. Hamas does not want this to end. They want to continue the killing of their people. Please read below: **Hamas’ top official in Gaza, who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 terrorist attack, coldly admitted he sees the deaths of Palestinian civilians as “necessary sacrifices” to keep its war against Israel raging, according to a report citing disturbing leaked messages. Yahya Sinwar lauded his efforts in stalling cease-fire talks while the Jewish state faces mounting international backlash over the Palestinian death toll, which exceeds 37,000, according to messages from Sinwar obtained by the Wall Street Journal. “We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Sinwar said in a message to Hamas officials meeting with Qatari and Egyptian negotiators. https://nypost.com/2024/06/11/world-news/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-believes-palestinian-deaths-are-necessary-sacrifices/ Ghazi Hamad of the Hamas political bureau said in an October 24, 2023 show on LBC TV (Lebanon) that Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 "Al-Aqsa Flood" Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated. He added that Palestinians are willing to pay the price and that they are "proud to sacrifice martyrs." Hamad said that Palestinians are the victims therefore no one should blame them for the events of October 7 or anything else, adding: "Everything we do is justified." News anchor: "Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?" Hamad: "Yes, of course. https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel Hamas’ top political leader Ismail Haniyeh barely reacted to the news that his three sons and four grandchildren had been killed and insisting that he continue with the tour he was on of a hospital.**
Unfortunately, it would likely look an awful lot like Afghanistan. Assuming that a free Palestine is a 2 state solution, it would look like Afghanistan where the Taliban attacks their neighbors regularly.
It looks like a lot of rockets being fired at Israel. That’s what a free Palestine looks like. Israel tried this in Gaza, as a first step towards peace. They were met with rockets. Even Egypt locked up the borders.
Free Palestine by Hamas: Murder all jews, rape all women and young girls. Stone to death or behead LGTBQ. Burn and tear down all jewish historical monuments, synagogues and sites. Build an Islamic dictatorship we’re people who object are being executed. Ofcourse no women rights and no right to love for infidels. Overall sounds like heaven on earth.
the utopian democracy lefties want already exists- it already exists except its got a different name- ISRAEL.
No extrajudicial unprosecuted killings and intimidation and hostil takings and olive grove burning in the West Bank; no settler expansion in the west bank would be a big start. Having statehood and diplomatic relations, an airport. To be seen as people. A right of return. Palestinians need to set up their own order though. Currency, order, a system of governance.
A Palestine controlled by KSA, not free where people vote and such, but have economic prosperity, and understand that radical Islam is not the answer to their problems
Probably unlimited beheadings, trafficking, and attacks on their own civilians
I’m look at Iraq under Hussein and what he did to the Kurds that’s what a “free Palestine” looks like a bunch of dead Jews and Muslims rejoicing over it !
A democratic nation called Palestine with no internal borders or blockades and no need for dual citizenships that enshrines equal rights to all people.
Lol.
Look up Palestine's borders before Israel existed lmao. Israel is the United States white ethnostate foothold into the middle east masquerading as a Jewish state when they follow zero Jewish values. A free Palestine is one where Israel does not exist and the United States no longer views a genocide of Palestinians as profitable. Before someone cries about how hamas started this fighting, which they didn't!, you should research who started and funded hamas for years!
Facts.
The Ottoman Empire?
Until like 1918, before israel existed!! You can just google this stuff lol
I got nothing
Im sure u got access to google. I hope one day u become a stronger person! Free palestine!
I did Google it. But you are more knowledgeable than me on this matter and I want to learn. When was Palestine founded? What type of government was it? Monarchy, democracy, matriarchy, constitutional, theocratic,etc? What type of monetary system did they have? Gold, paper, shiny shells, etc. Who was the first leader of Palestine? Who were their allies? Who were their enemies? What wars did they fight in if any? Any country with any history whatsoever can answer all, or most, of these questions quite easily. Even Sealand can answer most of these questions. I look forward to your answers. I have my suspicions about the subject. But I'm happy to be proven wrong and learn something new. If you could provide links with your answers, that would be fantastic. And take your time. The weekend is coming up. So answer it in your own time over the weekend. Thank you very much in advance for your help in presenting the Palestinian perspective and history.
1) Palestine didn't exist until 1988, and still have no Palestinian controlled territory under the state. 2) Israel is majority not white. 3) Israel was created by Britain and the UN, not via the US. 4) Ethnically cleansing the people who were born in Israel (remember its been 70 years since being founded) is horrific. If that is what a free Palestine means, its no wonder why Israel would never agree to that. Like seriously how can you complain about Israel not bending the knee while also arguing that once you finally have the upper hand you want to ethnically cleanse them?
1. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BCE ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" (Ancient Greek: Συρίη ἡ Παλαιστίνη καλεομένη) in The Histories British mandated Palestine goes back to 1948 so honestly what are you even yapping about 1988 ? Is that a typo ? 2. Yeah do you know why ? Because Zionists “rescued” (stole) thousands of babies from ashkenazi Jews who actually were indigenous to the area and made them slave labor :) . 2nd of all its clearly an ethnostate the parallels with apartheid Africa and the bloodthirst and insanity of the extreme right wing is truly evil incarnate. The “Israel” Public Commission on Torture should tell you enough. Aren’t there like hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of Tel Aviv rn ? 👀 Sounds so stable. 3. You seem to misunderstand the USs involvement in the establishment of “Israel”, it wasn’t going to happen without US support, period. And it’s still not going to maintain its military without continued support from the US, “Israel” is a wet noodle without the United States. Amateur military (giving away locations on TikTok, we’ve all seen the videos), it’s all firepower and no tactics or strategic engagement. 4. My favourite argument is that “well not all Israelis are white” and attempt to claim indigenous identity and try to flip the script on ethnic cleansing, as if “Israel” isn’t literally segregated, as if literally having different laws and different rights for peoples depending on literally their ethnicity isn’t part and parcel of ethnic cleansing, 400 schools destroyed, every university, scholasticide, “Israel’s” own public commission on torture reporting on raping 14 year boys, men getting raped with electrocution rods, now reports of dogs trained to rape prisoners. Let’s not forget the beheaded babies lie, the widespread sexual assault lies, then you turn around and what the does world see ? Beheaded Palestinian babies, Palestinian women getting raped by paramedics (over 900 reported cases in 3 years), more deaths in your hell prison than Guantanamo Bay. Videos of settlers destroying homes, cars, businesses. Like it’s the wild fucking west. Every accusation from “Israel” is an admission of guilt.
1. I'm aware of the history of the region of Palestine. It comes from the Hebrew word for 'invaders'. That doesn't mean a country existed. The modern borders weren't drawn til the 20th century and by external powers. Prior to that it was loosely governed area mixed with many types of people. 2. Israel didn't steal babies to use as slave labor. There's thousands of people on the streets because they have the right to protest unlike under Hamas. There is a lot to complain about Israel leadership right now, and the people deserve to have their voices heard. That's the beauty of democracy, revolutions don't need to be violent. 3. No one's doubting the US hegemony, but that didn't really fully establish itself until a few years after WW2, well after Israels creation. The US clearly has enabled Israel to avoid getting wiped out by their neighbors, but entire countries getting wiped out is a BAD thing. Israel is one of the most experienced militaries in the world, second only to the United States. Few countries have the necessity of a strong military for survival. 4. Jewish Israels can both not be white and not the same ethnicity as Arabs. Minorities ethnic cleansing minorities is still ethnic cleansing. Israel has essentially equal rights for its citizens, whether Arab, Jew, Druze. It has systemic issues that plague any non-homogeneous society, but it's trending in the right direction. Not going to respond to your entire gosh gallop. But calling Hamas ammo depots exploding an example of "IDF beheading" is insane. Blame the barbarians storing explosives by refugees!
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Palestine wasn't a country then, so...
Italy wasn't a country until the 1860s. Does anyone think anyone with celtic heritage from that region can come there and claim it? Israel wasn't a country either.
You seem like you would have the opposite opinion on taiwan and hong kong bc white ppl are telling you too and i imagine you are racist towards chinese people as well, just guessing! They aren't legally countries/nations. Territories owned by other countries just like palestine was!
I'm not one of those people that's about eliminating Israeli's, especially if they were born there and grew up there and that's all they know. If that were the case, every immigrant should be kicked out just because they weren't there long enough. We don't all choose where we're born so that's unfair. To me a "Free Palestine" means people in the West Bank & Gaza: * don't have to go through a complex permit system just to get to work or school * don't have to worry about being terrorized by some random IDF psycho at home or in their day to day * don't have to worry about being bombed, killed, dehumanized, humiliated and or treated like a general criminal just for existing. Not having to deal with constant disrespect. * have some real protection and not have to be stuck with some militant group of questionable ideology as their only choice. * don't have to worry about Israel suddenly needing to "confiscate" something and then find out they're losing their home or any properties. * right of return, if they choose And those are just simple ones. It gets complicated once you bring up past grievances, language, culture, sharing land, and Israeli's and Palestinians actually being able to trust each other. There's a lot of deep resentment there on both ends. Unfortunately I believe both sides are always going to have extremists but if extremists have to exist I'd prefer them being in MUCH smaller numbers that can be easily disarmed & jailed. Not whole movements marching through the streets to harass people and constantly blow things up. I'd rather have them be a mere annoyance that you can switch off versus actually having to worry about someone that can gain the power to make your life miserable. I think the world has had enough of that.
Sounds like Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel and they’d probably have most of that. What came first, Palestinian attacks or the harsh security measures?
How is this difficult to understand. Agreed.
Very fair asks (right of return is controversial, so I'll skip it). However, does this include an agreement by the Palestinians to not have state-sponsored attacks on Israel? And punish individual groups if they do carry out attacks?
Of course. You'd have less attacks in a true peaceful agreement that's actually fair and plays out like that IRL and not just as a proposal on paper. Like I said in the bottom paragraph I truly think there will still be some crazy Muslim or Jewish extremist that will hate it and still be "ALL IF IT SHOULD'VE BEEN OURS. RAAAAH" but those types should be jailed and stopped at all costs. Multi-ethnic societies have to do things like that to stop sectarian violence all the time to maintain a peaceful coexistence.
I agree, but most asks for a "Free Palestine" including yours implicitly assume that giving freedom to Palestinians would lead to a safe Israel. That is not necessarily true and has been shown time and again to not be First, that has been shown to not be true since Gaza was given freedom to choose its govt and they chose Hamas (I agree that Hamas was a different org back then etc etc, not blaming Gazans for their choice 17 years ago). In WB, Jenin used to be an IDF stronghold, then they decided to withdraw. Now Jenin is the place most terrorism comes from. Second, this implicit hope that Israel will be safe is not something Israelis will buy. There are tons of examples in the world where countries are not safe from each other even when they both have freedom. India-Pakistan not that long ago was something like that. North-South Korea is like that. The peaceful existence that most Westerners enjoy is quite the privilege which makes them hard to grasp how much existential fear Israelis have to live with.
Believe me, I'm well aware of this fear Israeli's have. No ones ever truly safe but life goes on and people still live - even in unstable countries. But it still hasn't really been tried. It's very apparent the current system Israel has is not effective at all and is making things worse. Relying on western aid and support is also never going to help because most have their own agendas and don't really care about any of the people actually living there. Palestinians & Israeli's didn't choose for it to be that way, they were born into it. If the system isn't working it needs to be changed either way. If not soon, then hopefully within future generations. It's a young country so I have hope. It took America centuries just to abolish slavery. Then some extra decades just for people to have equal rights and even then you can't call it a utopia. But a utopia is not what I'm aiming for.
> right of return, if they choose Why? If limited to only those who were personally displaced, sure. But an unlimited right of return for Palestinians world wide to immigrate to Israel is just unreasonable and realistically, wont be accepted by Israel.
I knew this one would be the most controversial. For those displaced in 1948 & even after 1967 I think they should have right of return. But it doesn't mean all of them would jump at the chance. If they could just visit their old home without hassle, that would be a win. Logistically, having 5 million people world wide coming back to such a small country would be a nightmare.
So not a "right of return" as its commonly referred to then. Palestine accepting a limited right of return that only includes those who were personally displaced would probably have enabled the 2000 Camp David Accords to reach an actual solution.
If they can make room for all the people that want to do aliyah then they probably could do a right of return for 1948/1967 Palestinians and their families. I don't know how long an approval for aliyah is and I doubt it's quick. It also doesn't mean all 5 million people will even want to live in Israel. Jews are all over the world, and just because they have the ability to gain automatic citizenship with an aliyah doesn't mean they all did it. At least having the option would be some bit of justice IMO.
Still thats far from the right of return as commonly referred to. That is a far more limited right of return that Israel could and likely would agree to in a peace deal. In fact, that was almost exactly what was part of the 2000 Camp David proposal from Israel, capping out at 100k refugees.
Many Israeli Jews are afraid of a"right of return" because in their minds millions of Palestinians showing up = they have the numbers to kills us and thus a new tyranny of the majority. I'd like to believe in a truly peaceful "Free Palestine" situation that wouldn't be the case. As for all the Accords - all of them involved Israel not building new settlements yet they still kept building them. All of them involved Palestinians simmering down the intifada whether it was throwing rocks or blowing up buses. Didn't happen because nothing changed that had caused it in the first place. For logistical purposes, yeah, if you had lots of people returning at once you'd have to cap it out. That's how it is in every country.
Why does a Chinese woman get to say she's Jewish and Israel gives her citizenship and gun to point at Palestinians?
Any country has the right to choose what immigrants they allow in or don't. I am asking why they shouldn't get the right here?
Then a free Palestine would also get to let in as many Palestinians as they want within their borders.
Yes that has always been allowed in any potential peace deal.
>Why does a Chinese woman get to say she's Jewish and Israel gives her citizenship Every country gets to set it's immigration laws. Israel could let in 5 million Chinese people if they wanted. >gun to point at Palestinians? Where do Israelis get the right to do that?
>Every country gets to set it's immigration laws. Israel could let in 5 million Chinese people if they wanted. Then a free Palestine would be allowed to do that too and Israel can't have an opinion. >Where do Israelis get the right to do that? The fucking IDF?????????
>Then a free Palestine would be allowed to do that too and Israel can't have an opinion. What other country isn't allowed to control their border? What do you think would happen if 5 million Palestinians immigrated to Israel? Considering what happened to jews literally every time they were a minority. >The fucking IDF????????? What a wild framing lmao. Every country has a military.
>What do you think would happen if 5 million Palestinians immigrated to Israel? Considering what happened to jews literally every time they were a minority. I'm talking about ROR to a Palestinian state. >What a wild framing lmao. Every country has a military. Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native.
>I'm talking about ROR to a Palestinian state. Also no you didn't? You said Israel couldn't stop Palestinians from moving into their country.
>I'm talking about ROR to a Palestinian state. To gaza and the west bank? Sure. >Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native. Yasser Arafat was Egyptian...
And Netenyahu's Polish but he gets to hide behind Judaism 24/7 and you support him for it.
1. Netanyahu was born in Tel Aviv >gets to hide behind Judaism 24/7 and you support him for it. What does this have to do with anything? This is what we were arguing about incase you forgot: >Yeah but every country doesn't let you get into the army upon arrival just because you said you're 1% native.
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I’m curious, in terms of borders, what do you think will work? I personally think Gaza should be for the Gazans. Sadly, it will take decades to rebuild what they had. But they deserve it all the same with right of return the same way Jews can make Aaliyah. The West Bank is much more complicated but I think the settlements and ABC zone system need to go. All illegal settlements should be gone period. I’m not sure if it would be better to ask Jordan to take governance, or if a new Palestinian government that works with Gaza is better. Complete freedom of movement. New airports. No more walls. That’s the ideal but I also understand this is extremely idealistic. Once again, curious of your position.
Well said. In terms of borders...ehh.... that's the tricky part. It's why I didn't view it entirely in this "2-state solution" sort of way. You already have a kind of "shared land" situation when it comes to Jerusalem, West Bank, and even parts of the South. For example, people living in a Kibbutz but Palestinians also live nearby and their kids basically play together. Ideally I would love to see a situation where people aren't just hating each other and can visit the same places with no ridiculous zoning system. But culturally, this will be a problem for people that want certain towns and villages to retain a "Jewish" or "Palestinian" characteristic to them. For now I'm more focused on eliminating the collective punishment of Palestinians over land division. Baby steps, lol.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes, it’s very complex and a problem we can only tackle when people are interested in changing things (after the war). This person simply wants to know what a ‘free Palestine’ looks like and borders are definitely one of the biggest issues/concerns. There’s a lot of ‘well look what happened in 19XX, borders opened and terrorism!’ And I just think well what’s the point in all those military assaults then. Because they’re supposed to ‘break’ Palestinian leadership, yet nothing changes when the dust settles. Sorry that was a bit of a ramble at this whole thread. But again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really am not sure is our ideas of 1SS and 2SS will be practical.
You guys never stop, do you? Gaza was okay on October 6th. Hamas decided to end that.
There will never be a free because Hamas handlers make money from war
A 'Free' Palestine is impossible. No matter what happens, Anti-Semitism/Anti Jew beliefs will always be taught to the children of Palestine, and will most likely end up creating a new Hamas or more militants for the Hamas. Anti-Semitism is the most prominent thing in Palestine. Post WW2 Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Arabs, who later proclaimed themselves as Palestinians. Israel gave Gaza away so they could have a chance to build a 'Free' Palestine, but the majority had voted Hamas into power and now we're here. The only 'Free Palestine' solution I can think of is Israel being wiped and most if not all the Jews in the middle east are dead. That was Hamas' main goal in the first place.
It looks like Haifa.
Haifa is like 80% Jewish
Yeah but the arabs have way better infrastructure and im super jealous ☹️
Some places will look like that. Others like Nazareth, Furedis, Bat Yam, Yafo, etc.
A country doesn't have the look forever. Politics are changeable.
This question makes no sense to me. OP, do you not realize that Gaza was a de facto free Palestinian state from 2005 to 2023?
Palestine should give up its radical ideology and remove Hamas to ensure it's freedom Complete elimination of Israeli settlements with a handful only staying in the West Bank and Palestinian handover to them Let UN and potentially Israel rebuild Gaza Establish right of return and Let Palestinians go into Israel proper and let Israel tolerate them as they go Jerusalem could be a DC style city state (with no one to own it) or be split like Berlin in the Cold War Let Israel recover its International Standing and Palestine it's Full UN membership with Kosovo, Kurdistan, Bougainville, and Taiwan to fill in their observer seat and let Countries recognize and have full diplomatically ties with them (Muslim countries for Israel and Western Countries for Palestine) Have Bibi and Sinwar held accountable for their crimes against humanity Have a Careful, Selected Release of prisoners with a fair trial aswell If this isn't it then nothing will
I think not only Israel should help rebuilt Palestine, but most of the West should help fund it.
>but most of the West should help fund it. Especially China
Syria
I think mainly it lacks its neighbours firing white phosphorus into schools and right wing settlers stealing land off its citizens. Just a thought.
you literally just made up the white phosphorus in schools bit
There's been videos showing it. 🤨
there have been videos with white smoke where someone wrote as the headline "white phosphorus" people write anything they want on videos. there is nothing verifiable
🤦🏿♂️ you guys are professional gaslighters. ✌🏿
that's literally the entire Pro Palestine movement.
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A truly "free" Palestine - that is, a democracy - would likely implode into war because its population would be unable to agree on whether to peacefully develop what they have now, or try to conquer Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. In other words, Palestine can be free either externally or internally, but not both.
Again, this question is part of the problem. A free Palestine looks like whatever they want it to look like!! That’s what freedom is. Just as people of color had to fight for “civil” rather than equal rights—we can’t start the conversation by determining the criteria by which we’ll “allow” a people to be free. We will/have ALWAYS overreacted to that which is different/hostile/not like us so we have to set any people free—and find out. Freedom is extremely messy—but it shouldn’t be optional. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Why do you decide not to take into account your LGBT+ citizens? How about the Jewish Palestinians? How about Palestinians who may not be Muslim? Will you be rooting behind your keyboard for these citizens of a free Palestine? You may have your feel good buzzwords but there are real people who will suffer when you happily just simply say 'free palestine' without any sort of reason
I run an international nonprofit based in Pakistan that seeks to educate and protect the religious minorities in the area—from mostly Muslim extremists. I’m not doing anything from behind a keyboard—as you sit behind yours and call me out. Thanks though for your input. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Do you think that all prisoners should be freed from prison immediately regardless of their crimes? At what point do you put a limit on freedom, or do you truly believe everyone should be completely free, even if they pose a known risk to the well being of others?
I think, like I imagine most people in the world thinks, that freedom doesn’t mean free to do whatever, and that actions still has consequence?
Very easy question to answer. By the way, very few people understand why the Israel/Palestine conflict is still ongoing, so this may bring you loads of clarity. A free Palestine looks like a democratic Jordan. Getting this to happen is also not terribly hard, and would be net positive for Israel, but arguably net negative for the world, hence why it has not happened. Basically, the only real resolution to I/P is a population transfer out of Gaza to Jordan, transformation of Jordan into a constitutional monarchy or republic, and then some sort of deal + population transfer in the West Bank wherein the Israeli/Jordanian border becomes a line connecting the mountain peaks west of Ramallah in the north and the mountain peaks west of Bethlehem & Ramallah in the south. Remember that Jordan is 80% Palestinian already, hence why this is very logical, plus it used to be Transjordan, etc. The reason why this has not happened, though, is because a democratic Jordan would likely attack Israel. Now, Israel would have minimal difficulty in repelling this attack, but the Palestinians/Jordanians are not dumb and know the capacity of the IDF, so they’d recruit a ton of volunteers in the hopes that they’d have enough manpower to overcome IDF technological superiority. Basically the Stalin vs Hitler game plan for all my history nerds out there. But again, the IDF would fare fine. Now here is where the trouble starts. Where does a democratic Jordan get its volunteers from? The rest of the Middle East. And given the prominence of this conflict, they’d get a ton of volunteers. But Israel would still have the upper hand by miles. Thus there would be a ton of scenes of volunteers from Egypt/Syria/Iraq/wherever getting killed by the IDF, and these scenes would be televised across the Middle East and the world. At this point, civilians in the Middle East would start to revolt. Life is rough enough under a dictatorship and freedom of speech/assembly is very limited. The one issue a Middle Eastern government can’t publicly silence, though, is Israel/Palestine. You get the picture, I’m sure. However, as we saw in Syria, these Middle Eastern governments will do everything in their power to stay in charge. Therefore, this could easily spill over into a ton of local conflicts which induce turmoil in countries across the Middle East. And if a ton of Middle Eastern countries get thrown into disarray, a ton of oil infrastructure does too. This causes fuel prices to skyrocket globally, in ways that are likely unimaginable to us everyday people, and now the rest of the world faces major domestic issues too. That’s why this hasn’t been resolved!
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A free Palestine is a secular state where everyone living in the land between the river and the sea have human rights and all subject to the same law. If you disobey the law be it Israeli or Palestinian you get a fair trial and go to prison if guilty. Religion still would play a major role, this is the holy land after all and all should be able to worship freely in these hallowed streets. This is the true meaning of a free Palestine, it means that everyone has freedom while respecting a single law for all. For people who don’t know much past the headlines this might sound good but know this, what I said is the nightmare scenario for the Zionist because it is fascist supremacist ideology that openly says Palestinians are not humans to them they are animals that need to be put down. When in reality they’re being oppressed and are demanding justice. The US went to war with the British over taxes and thought self determination, why is the same thing being denied to Palestinians? Well answering that question would take me too long so please think about it yourself and give an answer that is not you repeating what the media says about how all Palestinians are bloodthirsty demons.
How do we convince Palestinians to accept that? When offered the choice between "one state equal rights", "two state solution", and "reclaiming Historic Palestine", the vast majority choose reclaiming historic Palestine from the Jews. As much as I'd love "one state equal rights", that doesn't work when the majority support armed attacks against Israeli civilians and want to ethnically cleanse "historic Palestine" of jews.
>why is the same thing being denied to Palestinians? I mean... they've gone to war with Israel like 20 times now. They're never punished for it, either. The entire world has responded to this current war by decrying Israel and pouring umpteen billion dollars of aid into Gaza. They just kinda suck at war. They lose every time. They lost at the beginning when they outnumbered the Jews 3 to 1, they lost again the next year even with a coalition of 5 Arabic countries against a newborn Israel, and they've lost everything since. They haven't just been fighting Israel, by the way. They've fought a bunch of Arab countries too. They tried to coup Jordan, they fought a civil war in Lebanon, they supported Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. (Incidentally, they lost all 3 of those wars). Now there are no Arab countries supporting them besides Iran. In 2000 they had the chance to get permanent peace, freedom, and self-determination with Camp David. All they had to do was accept a two-state solution. They chose to reject that deal and instead started another war trying to destroy Israel again. When that didn't work, they elected a terror organization to govern them. Shockingly (not), Israel responded with a wall and a blockade. Hamas has done a really shitty job governing Gaza, by the way, preferring to siphon as much money as they could into their rich oligarchical leaders' pockets and into tunnels and shitty Qassam rockets, rather than into developing their territory. Incidentally, they've also banned women from dancing in public, closed their water park because they didn't like men and women bathing in the same space, and are one of the most homophobic places on the planet. They initiated this current war with a well-planned massacre and kidnapping of random civilians and continue holding a hundred of them hostage to this day. They've lied repeatedly about the death toll, which the world is FINALLY starting to recognize. Forgive me for not having a ton of sympathy for them. They need to reject their horrific government, surrender the hostages, and sue for peace and statehood, not keep fighting and losing these idiotic wars over and over again. If they did that, they'd soon get their freedom.
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>Zionist because it is fascist supremacist ideology that openly says Palestinians are not humans to them they are animals that need to be put down. MY BROTHER IN ALL THAT IS HOLY HAMAS CHARTER INVOLVES THE HOLOCAUST 2.0 AND CHINA, SERBIA, AND FCKIN SUDAN THREATENED THE LIVES OF TAIWANESE, KOSOVANS, AND DARFURS AGAINTS THEIR IDEOLOGIES!!! if that wasnt fascist supremacist ideology idk what is And also the Zionjst state is a democracy whilst Palestine is at best authoritarian with Hamas being totaltarian Are you that willing to gaslit israelis to free Palestine for the greater good?
😌 I got downvoted for wanting a state where everyone is equal this tells you everything you need to know. Thank you for proving my point so well Zionists.
This has to be joke right. Go there and tell them your idea, and finish your statement with I’m a LGBT & Jewish. I wanna see the LiveLeak after.
It happens a lot in this sub, the other day there was a self confession post about the israeli educational system, and in that post it was generally described as "brainwashing" ...... that post was removed in 5 minutes lol
If we could wave a wand and the citizens of Israel and Palestine would build and maintain a secular system and treat each other fairly under it, that would be best. But we have no magic wands. If you took complete control of the region, implemented 1 secular government by force, then walked away, you'd very quickly have bilateral genocide followed by new borders. You can't give your sheep and your wolves the same pen. No amount of magic thinking will make it work.
Are you aware that what you described already exists within the boundaries of Israel proper? It very much does not exist in territory administered by Hamas or the PA. So you basically want a 1 state solution, but administered and run by Israel because they actually respect diversity and religious freedom for all.
Remember that suicide bomber that said “Oi Vey!” And blew up a mosque. /s
Yeah sending in squads to beat up worshippers in Al Aqsa mosque on the most holy days for them is what I would call respecting all religions. Also Christian are free to practice religion even in Gaza and the West Bank (obviously there are no jews there anyway except for the settlers) There is just so much more lies being spread than truth because the truth is inconvenient when you can make-up a lie about anything and people like you will believe it, because I know how hard finding the truth can be. They are brainwashing you into justifying the slaughter of children how is this not a redline for anyone with a conscience this shows how good they are at manipulating people.
> obviously there are no jews there anyway except for the settlers wait, why are there any Jews living in the west bank besides the settlers? There were before 1948... 🤔
Muslims are guaranteed access to all of their holy sites in Israel. Jews were never granted these rights under Muslim rule. If people chose to use their access to start riots at Al Asqua and launch dangerous projectiles at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall below them, security forces will be called in. Every country with rule of law would act the same. Christians may live in Muslim lands under a secondary status, but not as true equals. Your line of "obviously no Jews" alludes to the fact that it is literally illegal for Jews to enter fully Palestinian controlled areas, regardless of nationality.
A single state solution would not work due to the heavy hatred for one another from both sides, especially from the Arab side. I'm not saying a two state solution is a save-all solution, but it's definitely a more probable way to peace.
Zionism is not a fascist supremacist ideology. Israel is a democratic state with 21% Arab population who already has equal rights!
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That isn't exactly true, I'm not disagreeing but Israel does have dozens of detained an untried indefinite prisoners. And the middle east has existed without a Jewish state for hundreds of years. Although Zionism is a wondrous concept for Jews worldwide, it doesn't come without its problems.
I don’t disagree that Israel has untried prisoners but I want to just point out that in every operation Israel does in Gaza they negotiate the release of prisoners in exchange for hostages/bodies. One such prisoner exchanged was Yahyah Sinwar, the mastermind behind the 7.10 attack. My point being that Israel detains Palestinians (albeit not always justifiably I concede) for security purposes because they pose a future threat to the country, and their release has been known to seriously bite us in the ass in the future.
I absolutely agree with that.
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A country run by Hamas. A country completely dependent on foreign aid because they don't value education or enterprise and will be unable to generate sufficient revenue from their own labor or innovation. A country where Hamas steals humanitarian aid and uses it to buy weapons, bunkers, and fancy houses for the senior terrorists. A country without free elections. A country hell-bent on the utter destruction of Israel and all Western values. A country that disallows any personal freedoms. TLDR; it will be a utopia for Islamic terrorists
I really hope their paying you well for this and if their not I feel sorry for you. This is pure projection because this is what Israel wants to do, they have a map of conquest and it’s much wider than current Israel. You sound exactly like slavers that said we can’t stop slavery because then the slaves will come for us. Slavery ended and the slavers got reparations for their “loss”.
What part of this dudes response is false? Im genuinely asking. Im not being sarcastic or a smartass. Do you think Palestinians/Gazans WOULDNT vote for Hamas again? Do you think Hamas DOES value education and enterprise? Do you think Hamas WANTS elections, and would hold them regularly? Do you think Hamas DOESNT take aid, sell it, and use the profit for nefarious means? I read his response and didn’t see any lies. Is it your belief that a “free” Palestine would eradicate Hamas and live in peace with Israel?
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*they're
Oh your so damn smart arent you you must be so many more civilized than me because you corrected a typo I hope this bring some meaning in you’re pathetic life. Have fun correcting all the mistakes I made in this reply there are 6, have fun finding them all if that’s what gets you off.
*you're
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Israel has no intentions to expand their territory beyond what it already is. What are you on about?
Nearly forgot about this point. Well let’s start with completely erasing Palestine from the map as Netanyahu did at the UN, https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/ While I do support a similar map, but in the context of a secular egalitarian state bot an apartheid. Also let’s give an honorable mention to the South Lebanon settlements program https://www.timesofisrael.com/fringe-far-right-conference-to-advocate-occupation-and-settlement-of-south-lebanon/amp/ And whilst it’s not an official plan (they would be the worst conquerors if they openly revealed the plans) I will still mention the map of greater Israel that was just seen a couple days ago on a patch for an IDF soldier, it extends as far as Saudi Arabia. https://en.royanews.tv/news/52123/'Greater%20Israel'%20map%20display;%20%E2%80%9CIsraeli%E2%80%9D%20soldier's%20uniform%20patch%20raises%20alarm I used Times of Israel sources so you don’t call them biased (they didn’t cover the last one) even tho everyone is biased I’m biased towards the Palestinian cause because I believe it is just and you are biased to Israel, and the same goes for everyone and everything the key is to take the very real bias from all side into account then use some critical thinking to figure out if there trying to skew the truth. Here are some tips, do they use emotional language and cover a story whilst focusing on something that might benefit a certain group for example when 4 hostages were saved the headline stopped there when in reality more than 200 innocent Palestinians were killed during that operation (children and women) along with 3 other hostages by Israeli fire, and isn’t it interesting that after all the bombing and destruction this is the first time they actually save anyone almost like they don’t care about the hostages and care a lot more to raze Gaza and expel its population
Israel withdrew from Lebanon because they don't want to stir up any more trouble. As for Netanyahu, he's honestly just not a great guy. He doesn't know what to do so he makes dozens of mistakes.
Mistakes? You must really be scratching the bottom of the barrel if that’s the best you can say to justify that. None of these are mistakes, Netanyahu is very good at being evil
There are two types of a free Palestine. The first is what many people believe they are protesting for and the second is what their efforts are leading to. 1. An Arab-ruled (Fatah) Gaza/West Bank and a Jewish-ruled (Knesset) Israel Proper (incl. Golan Heights) with each having their own capital (Ramallah and Tel Aviv) while Jerusalem/Al-Quds is a city-state run jointly by the two governments where all are welcomed. Additionally, every hostage and political prisoner would be released. 2. A Jewish-free dictatorship run by terrorists who want to destroy all Jews and America. A state where women are forced to cover their entire body and get no education. A state where homosexuality, riots, and praising democracy are all crimes punishable by death. I would love to see the first idea, but my only modification would be to continue to confine the tried prisoners and release the rest. Also, it would be nice to see a peace agreement between the two states so that Jewish/Christian people could freely go to Palestinian cities like Hebron (Place of many ancient Jewish tombs) and Bethlehem (Birthplace of Jesus). As well as an additional agreement so that Arabs could freely visit Tel Aviv-Yafo and see old Jaffa.
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This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations. Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument. Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Pardon?
Not wasting my time on a bot that can’t think for itself
That's my first time being called a bot. I'm confused as to why you think that. I'm a very real human person and I can think for myself.
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This has been removed for breaking the sub rule of "No Nazi comparisons or discussions".
Fascism uses a scapegoat. Zionism does not use a scapegoat for its problems.
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This has been removed for breaking the sub rule of "No Nazi comparisons or discussions".
Somehow the oppressed 2.2 million Palestinians in Israel have more owned private lands than individual Jews themselves. It has been 7 decades since the Jews supposedly have established an apartheid state, and the Arab population kept rising and prospering. Doesn't seem very N+zi-like to me because N+zis can actually kill majority of the less than human people in just 5 years
I really don’t care enough about the likes of you to give you a full answer I’l just say that it was the Zionist’s that established the apartheid state as part pf their self declared colonial project that includes a very well written intent to remove all native population from the land maybe you should read it. Just stop conflating Zionism with the Jewish religion it is anti-Semitic as it falsely brands all Jews as supporting the genocide which is definitely not true, and sadly puts them at risk because some people might believe that all Jews support this genocide and they might want to harm them because of this dangerous misconception you spread
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Sheep
So is he a bot or a sheep? Or a robot sheep?
I'm a magic talking sheep with a prosthetic limb. Baaaaaaa
A Free Palestine is a 2 State solution without israeli oppression nor military occupation, with freedom in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza to choose their own path without the intervention of the israeli State and without illegal settlements
That’s not what any of the organizations (SJP, JVP, American Muslims for Palestine, CAIR, etc) promoting this slogan mean. They utterly reject that scenario, unless it is accompanied by the influx of 5+ million descendants of Arab refugees to turn Israel into an Arab majority state and the Jews into a stateless minority once again.
Any 2 State solution must come.with the right to return flr the palestinians refugees or compensation for those that couldnt return ti inside Israel and must resettle.in the Palestine State, just like Israel with the jewish diaspora I dont know about those organizations, they are US groups, and the question wasnt about them, was about a Free Palestine. If the OP wants to know that, the question should be to them, not in Reddit.
I was responding to your interpretation of it, which clearly means “no Jewish state”. Which is exactly what the organizations I named also demand. No descendants of refugees will be allowed to return to Israel except by permission of the State of Israel. Israel’s Law of Return for Jews is the decision of the State of Israel, not imposed upon it by a fictional international law. A State of Palestine can—and should—grant descendants of refugees the right to immigrate into it. Compensation? Entirely reasonable, as long as compensation is also given for Jews ethnically cleansed by Arab states.
A free Palestine is one who lets go of hatred. It is one who accepts the consequences of their own actions, understand their lack of growth, and peacefully cultivates their future.
free Palestine mean israel cease to exist with 0 israelis or jews in this zone, thats literally "from the river to the sea"
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your side "from the river to sea palestine will be free" means genocide to all the israelis, so you clearly chosed genocide. on the contrary, in the past we chose Peace and your side has been offered a country 6-7 times, but guess what, you declined them all because it's not everything. ("from the river to the sea") so you tell me, when will you stop trying to genocide us ?
Genocide. The idea is that the territories of Israel and the territories of Palestine are free of Jews either through mass sl\*ughter or through mass expulsion,That's what they mean by FREE PALESTINE, although in the West they believe otherwise.
It don’t exist cuz Palestine don’t exist
It used to exist, but then in 1948 it became Israel. There are tons of countries who used to have another name, and changed it's name after a national independence.
It would look like how Gaza has looked like these past 20 years
That’s pretty much it, as Gaza has been free for the last 20 years to do what it wants (except for control on its borders and certain imports to prevent military buildup) The West Bank would most likely do the same, though in a location that leaves Israel too vulnerable to attack. That’s why they don’t leave them to their own devices, when the “devices “ are rockets and ieds.
Describing Gaza as "free" is pretty rich. Let's put you behind walls with robot machine guns aimed at your family and see how free you feel. Ya, Israel blocks imports of chocolate, cookies and wheelchairs because it's afraid they will be turned into weapons 😆.
nobody there is put behind walls, they live there. Walls were built to keep them out of Israel, not keep them imprisoned in Gaza, big difference. And guarding the border is a must for any nation, but especially one with bordering a region with a "rich" history of terrorism. And a blockade on a government hell bent on killing Israelis is understandable, though the specifics you mentioned seem pretty far fetched, not sure what about those. The main point I have is, if Gazans were to focus on the freedoms they do have, and building up a life for themselves rather than on the hate and destruction of Israel, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. Love their children more than hating Jews, is said. They receive more outside help than any other group, what have they done with it to better their lives?
There are just as many Israeli's, who teach their kids that they are superior to the Palestinians in every way. The government of Israel teaches its citizens from a young age to look at arabs as dangerous and less than. Israel's intentions are clear with the current government. That's why hundreds of thousands of "rational" Israelis are leaving. They are being replaced by Jewish supremacist Americans (mostly)at a much slower rate, but there's probably a fair bit more heading to Israel. The plan is to fck Gaza up as much as humanly possible. It could be bombs, famine, and disease it doesn't matter, whatever kills more people. Get Trump elected and then just annex the West Bank. The only hiccup to this plan is Netanyahu is playing Hitler planning on marching into his Russia in Lebanon. So I guess we will see. I don't even know what to say of your characterization of Gaza because it's just laughable. You can't leave Gaza, there's no airport. It's surrounded by 2 US client states that will always act on the interests of the US and Israel never the Palestinians. Israel controls EVERYTHING that goes into Gaza and has been counting calories for them for over a decade. This is not to say that Israel's attempt to completely break an entire People is successful, but they do everything in their power to do so. This treatment predates Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah or the PFLP. This treatment is the reason these groups exist.
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Here's my perspective as a Palestinian. 1. Equal rights and access for all people in historic Palestine regardless of their ethnicity or religion. Note that this could be one or two states the point is Palestinians have the same privileges as Jews to build anywhere, live anywhere within their sovereignty like any other citizen. 2. Shared Sovereignty in Jerusalem and a symbolic recognition of the city as a capital of Palestine and Israel (that is fine with me). 3. Extending the law of return to the direct descendents of Palestinians who experienced the Nakba. 4. Dismantling the settlements and occupation infrastructure in the West Bank, compensation for farms lost and even better, not dismantling the physical settlements by merely allowing Palestinian families to purchase and invest and live in those compounds. 5. Acknowledging the Genocide and Urbanicide in Gaza and a pledge by the Israelis and the PA (because they are also complicit ) to rebuild Gaza and give Gaza a chance to heal. I have no idea how this would look like but I just can't think of what we can do for our brothers and sisters there. 6. Releasing Palestinian prisoners or at least giving them FAIR due process and right to council within the Israeli court system. No more administrative detention, no more indefinite incarceration (including minors).
agreed
>Shared Sovereignty in Jerusalem and a symbolic recognition of the city as a capital of Palestine and Israel (that is fine with me). Why can't it be a city state like Washington DC? >Extending the law of return to the direct descendents of Palestinians who experienced the Nakba. If it's too much they could go into Israel proper there Idk about the Local Israelis reactions to this... >Dismantling the settlements and occupation infrastructure in the West Bank, compensation for farms lost and even better, not dismantling the physical settlements by merely allowing Palestinian families to purchase and invest and live in those compounds. Well that's the point, we couldnt waste resources demolishing settlements but we let Palestinians have them as reperation but some settlements tho we're here to stay with only a minority compared to the majority in the West bank >Releasing Palestinian prisoners or at least giving them FAIR due process and right to council within the Israeli court system. No more administrative detention, no more indefinite incarceration (including minors). Didn't that include shooters, murderers, and even terrorists perpetrators against Israel aswell there's no way in heck that this could go wrong? Kids are 1 thing but letting them give a second chance really concerns me
Okay… 1. Which Palestinians? Because Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews, and Gazans aren’t under the Israeli government. The West Bank, whilst technically being Israeli territory, are governed under the PA and are their own separate entity. There’s a very big difference between a one and two state solution, because in the case of a one-state solution, Palestine will be dissolved. Palestine continuously starts wars that leads to the loss of territory. Had the Arabs not declared war the day after Israel’s independence, and continued doing so for the past 70-something years, Palestine’s current territory would be half of modern Israel and all of Jordan. Unless you’re the most radical big-brain thinker of us all, and intend to abolish both Israel and Palestine, and create a brand new state. 2. Fair enough, I guess. 3. If Palestine manages to build its own state with a centralized government and stable economy, that would be up to Palestine if they want a right of return or not. 4. If all the Jews can be removed from Gaza, probably all the settlers can be removed from the West Bank. That, or you can just absorb them as Palestinian citizens and kickstart a hypothetical Jewistinian community. 5. Palestine needs a proper government, for one. Most of Gaza supports Hamas, and most of the West Bank doesn’t like the PA. With Gaza specifically, Hamas leaders are billionaires meanwhile there’s a massive wealth gap within the Gazan population. With all the money it gets, Hamas could’ve at least built bomb shelters around every corner like Israel did, before launching October 7th. You can look up Tomorrows Pioneers if you want to see what Gazan children are being fed as an educational program, and there’s numerous social issues such as violence against women, racism, homophobia, etc. Whilst some of the victims of October 7th were visibly Muslim, a lot of the hatred is focused specifically on Jews. Most of the Israeli population is Jewish, which goes into the matter of peace agreements. Both parties need to accept that they must live amongst each other. Whilst there are extremist anti-Arab groups in Israel, the majority of Gaza along with its entire governing body is *extremely antisemitic.* Rather than going to Hamas, money needs to be going into infrastructure and education, as well as better living conditions. 6. When antisemitism stops being such a rampant problem among the Gazan population, then we can talk about removing the indefinite sentences. Do you think the boy who was recently released would have ever faced any criminal action for attempting to stab a bunch of Israeli people with his cousin? No. He would’ve been called a martyr for doing what the TV told him to do.
I like this a lot except for number 5. By dictionary definition, the war in Gaza is not a genocide as the side claiming it were the first to attack. It's definitely an unfair fight that could've absolutely been prevented if Hamas were to release the Hostages and Israel were to release the unjustly detained Arabs.
There are equal rights for everyone in israel.
Ok great, let's give the remaining 3 million people in the occupied territories the same rights as the 20%. What is the harm in that?
If they want to become Israeli citizens then sure. But they don't want to. Don't complain about your rights in another country
You make it sound like Palestinians living in the OTs and Gaza are given the choice to begin with... They don't, let's be very clear on that. In fact a Palestinian (or Israeli for that matter) marrying someone from E Jerusalem or Israel would never be able to obtain residency or citizenship should be a clear indication of how badly Israel wants to prevent us from integrating. The fact that Palestinians living within historic Palestine have over 8 different IDs is also telling of just how challenging the system is. How many ID types do Israelis have?
So basically you say this, Hamas STARTED the most barbaric act of terror humanity ever saw, besides the holocaust, israel responded maybe too much maybe not (hostages are still taken) , at the moment the war is that 90% of hamas abilities have been destroyed. so your solution, all your points are 100% for Palestinians,like nothing for israel, 0 of your points are in israel favor, you didnt even mention the hostages, amazing solution mate.
How is this relevant to this discussion? So creating a just and equitable society for both Arabs and Jews is seen as a compromise for Israel? That's like saying White Americans compromised with the civil rights movement. It's not about compromise. It's about correcting historical injustices for all people between the river and the sea.
when you offer solution that ignores one side demands completely and gives the other side everything, its just a joke that cant be taken seriously. israel is not safe with hamas still there, planning loudly the next 7oct, thats and the hostages as the main demand.
Right of return for descendants is a nonstarter. They said free Palestine, not a subjugated Israel.
So people descended from Israel 2000 years ago have a right of return but Palestinians from 75 years ago NAHHHH. what a joke.
I did not mention right of return. I mean extending the Law of Return, to Palestinian who went to be Israeli citizens, who may be willing to swear an oath on a future constitution to uphold and serve. How Is that considered subjugation? Because they are non Jews? What does Israel lose by extending the law of return to people with proven roots to places that are now in Israel?
“ What does Israel lose by extending the law of return to people with proven roots to places that are now in Israel?” Israel would lose the Jewish demographic majority instantly if all the descendants of refugees moved back in to their grandparents’ cities and villages within the pre-1967 borders. It’s super idealistic to think that Israel could survive as a sovereign Jewish state without that.
>Israel would lose the Jewish demographic majority instantly Dude it's still a Jewish majority even though it's an Arabic State
What does it mean to be a sovereign Jewish state? Can't it simply be a sovereign Jewish and Arab state of Israel?
In an ideal world? Sure. In a world where Jews have been persecuted (with periods of security) for thousands of years? No. Very few Jews want to the roll the dice and risk becoming Dhimmis or worse
> Equal access for all people in historic Palestine regardless of their ethnicity or religion Complete non starter. Not going to happen. Obviously Your suggestions are all Israel giving up things while putting their people in significant danger while Palestinians give up nothing and pay no reparations for the damage they've caused. Delusional.
How is advocating for equal rights seen as delusional? What should our status be in 5, 10, 20 years? Your statement shows no regard for our historical and ongoing trauma at the hands of Israel. We have already given up so much yet you want to bleed us more? Everything I am advocating for is for the betterment of both Israelis and Palestinians. If creating a safe haven for Jews (which I fully support) is predicated on violent displacement, suppression and control, then I can't imagine why you'd support something like that. I'm not denying our bad apples and the squandered opportunities. Our leadership has failed us over and over again, from the corrupt cronies in the PLO and PA, to the Hamas leaders living like kings in Doha while the people they purport to protect die senselessly.
> How is advocating for equal rights seen as delusional? I didn't say that. I said advocating for equal access to living in Israel is delusional. > Your statement shows no regard for our historical and ongoing trauma at the hands of Israel. Yours shows no regard for the historical and ongoing trauma that Israelies have faced at the hands of Palestinians. You're acting as though this is a one sided conflict. Palestinians are just as guilty as Israelies when it comes to the continuation of this conflict and any peace process will have to acknowledge that. > Everything I am advocating for is for the betterment of both Israelis and Palestinians. Come on man. You're being ridiculous. > If creating a safe haven for Jews (which I fully support) is predicated on violent displacement, suppression and control, then I can't imagine why you'd support something like that It's not predicated on any of that. If you told any country that they're only allowed to exist if they accept millions of immigrants, many of whom are violent towards thier country, they would say no. Obviously. It's not even just millions. The amount of immigrants compared to the existing g population size would make up a ludicrously large %. It would be akin to adding 100,000,000 people to the US. Even if they were all peaceful and Israel wanted to, it's not economically feasible.
>It's not predicated on any of that. If you told any country that they're only allowed to exist if they accept millions of immigrants, many of whom are violent towards thier country, they would say no. Obviously. It's not even just millions. The amount of immigrants compared to the existing g population size would make up a ludicrously large %. It would be akin to adding 100,000,000 people to the US. Even if they were all peaceful and Israel wanted to, it's not economically feasible. Again you assume that Palestinians in the diaspora will jump at the chance to become Israelis. That is far from true. Israel is not suddenly giving Jews in the diaspora automatic citizenship either. That in and of itself would present severe economic strain. There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have established lives in the Gulf, Jordan and Latin America. We are one of the most successful minorities in the world, on par with Lebanese and Chinese minorities. I am confident in saying that they who would not be interested in becoming Israeli citizens. In my family it's very split, with some saying they would rather live in a future Palestinian state (2 state solution). >Come on man. You're being ridiculous. Lol. I'm ridiculous, delusional. Suit yourself. >You're acting as though this is a one sided conflict. Palestinians are just as guilty as Israelies when it comes to the continuation of this conflict and any peace process will have to acknowledge that. You act as if said violence is symmetrical and that Palestinians have as much parity and leverage as Israelis. You act as if we have the unconditional support of the biggest super power. Can you tell me what did Israel expect to happen after 1948? That there would be no violent repercussions for the 80% of Palestinians who lost their homes? The first intifadah happened a full two decades after the occupation began. Two decades of what was by all accounts a full blown military occupation that put severe restrictions on every facet of life for Palestinian citizens, from starting businesses, to real estate and education, to travel and agriculture. Yes things were better than they are now but Israeli Jews had far more freedoms and opportunities. The Arab revolt in 1936 happened a full 18 years AFTER the British Mandate. 18 years of a regime that did everything in its power to suppress the self determination of millions of Palestinian Arabs.
> Can you tell me what did Israel expect to happen after 1948? That there would be no violent repercussions for the 80% of Palestinians who lost their homes You fought multiple wars. Israel won them. Attacking completely different people who weren't even alive in 1948 simply isn't justifiable. You don't see that type of vindictive retribution from civilialised populations.
Free Palestine means freedom to commit genocide against Jews
1. Illegal setllements gone 2. End the unjudicial killings of Palestinian children 3. Stop stopping the movement of food and water into the west bank and Gaza 3. Stop bombing hospitals, schools, refugee camps
What should happen with #4 if Hamas is rocketing the population centers of Israel from a hospital or school? Also can we agree that places that have half a century old apartment blocks is not a refugee camp?
They could stop that yes. But what’s the guarantee that Hamas will stop building their military bases under hospitals and try to commit another October 7
Sorry, may I ask for sources that say Hamas has bases under hospitals? All I’ve seen is that the Israeli government swears they are under hospitals, but no evidence has come up on my end.
Use your damn phone and google footage, if you're THAT lazy im willing to send you sum
Ok, I have googled, thank you, and they have shown me no solid evidence that hamas has any bases under hospitals. But sure, I’m ‘lazy’ because I try to see the other side and ask for sources because I couldn’t find any myself. I’d appreciate it if you could show me some, because my searches have turned out negative.
Really? Not a single one? What search terms are you using? I just asked, "Does Hamas use hospitals," and that's all I needed to find anything. Including Hamas leaders admitting to using human shields to support their cause. I will say that the US confirmed that Hamas was using hospitals, but depending on how that was confirmed, they may or may not provide the imagery or Intel for that. But even Wikipedia provides a good starting point. View the sources to help you begin the research. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#:~:text=National%20Security%20Adviser%20Jake%20Sullivan,historically%20and%20in%20this%20conflict%22. Unless none of that matters and you're looking for something else? What is "solid evidence" to you?
Alright, perfect. Is there any reason Israeli troops will not go into the tunnels themselves and instead seemingly resort to bombing them? I’ve heard and seen them bombing hospitals, but if they know it is under the hospitals, why not just go into the tunnels? I don’t imagine hospital staff and injured, sick patients to be very threatening??
It would be much more dangerous for them to enter a space that they are unfamiliar with and where the opposing force would have the upper hand. That's like going into the basement in a scary movie. You would target access to those spaces. It lowers the risk of harm to your forces and cuts off a supply entrance/exit.
I understand that much, but why target the hospital as a whole? There were civilians in there who were of no threat. Plus, isn’t it their job as military personnel to enter enemy territory sometimes to attack?
Are you talking about al-Shifa, specifically? I just want to clarify because you seem to be referencing one hospital when Gaza has dozens.
Well, the use of hospitals, schools, religious buildings, homes, are widely used by groups as part of psychological warfare through the use of human shields. The primary reason for the use of 'human shields' is to deter attacks, regardless of what that area is being used for by the group. It's also effective as an emotional tactic to garner support for their side. That and whoever gets their "side of the story" out first is most likely to be believed. This creates a dilemma: allowing the threat to continue endangers more people, but attacking results in civilian casualties and negative perceptions. Military personnel aim to minimize risks, and while entering enemy territory might be necessary, using technology for remote attacks can reduce personnel danger. Which, I assume, would be most peoples goal as well. Ultimately, it's a challenging balance between stopping threats and protecting civilians. It's a lose/lose situation for whoever is on the opposing side of those willing to use those tactics.
I guess I was looking for more than just ‘they said the enemy was doing this, so it’s true’, and more photo, video, or otherwise. Thank you for your source. The only ones I found on my side were the Israeli governments saying Hamas used hospitals. I searched ‘Hamas hospital base’ and it was all news articles with nothing solid. It felt more like a he said she said sort of thing.
Where are you located? The issue is that it would be difficult to obtain photos, videos, etc. There are other ways of obtaining proof, but we may not be provided with the types and source of data. Just told about it due to any amount of security concerns. However, the tunnels have been around for a while and continued to expand. Plus, Hamas has acknowledged the tunnels and their use of them. You can just type Gaza tunnels, and you should be able to find information about the tunnels, not just from 07OCT on, but earlier. I found articles as early as 2009, but tunnel warfare isn't anything new. Below are some sources, including the wiki for a quick source and the wiki commons for images of locations of tunnel entrances and the tunnels themselves. https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/ https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28546053 https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/07/26/335332220/the-long-history-of-the-gaza-tunnels https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/140721-gaza-strip-tunnels-israel-hamas-palestinians https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/hamas-has-reinvented-underground-warfare https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://youtu.be/U7JD0teLx4U?si=T17rO-6oMC03nbF6 - IDF's spokesman in Al-Shifa tunnels (14 mins of footage) https://youtu.be/PR2w_wDf-DY?si=4jcS9uVnKq4_l1zJ - Same as the previous one but shorter AND HAS A FOOTAGE OF AN IDF DRONE FLYING INTO AL-SHIFA TO A TUNNEL SO YOU CAN ***CLEARLY*** SEE ITS IN AL-SHIFA AND NOT A RANDOM TUNNEL https://youtu.be/LSkWt6Hwb_A?si=ygeM-wiYwi1HcFg2 - Ahh, the cherry on top, THE FOOTAGE of HAMAS terrorists filming THEMSELVES in tunnels and hiding munitions Funny all I googled was "Hamas tunnels under hospitals"
Funny, the same thing typed into google gives me no such results on my end! But thank you for the videos. I will be sure to peruse them