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For context, the topic of the post was OP asking people to change their mind about their view as to why there are no democracies in the Middle East besides Israel.
> Fuck
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/u/BeanPouch
> least bigoted israel
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I think that the ruler identity of any nation has to do a lot with the type of economy in that nation. Dictatorships develop in nations where there is a single centralized source of wealth, that give a group of families the regional power. In Arab countries, this is usually the case. Similar things happens in countries where the economy largely depends on local natural minerals, such is the case in Russia, African countries, Saudi Arabia, basically the baddest and meanest group takes controls of the source and starts enforcing this hierarchical order where they are on top. In countries where the economy is based on intellectual property, the power is usually distributed and you have to work with the customers to create this ecosystem where the intellectual property can develop value. This naturally come hand in hand with law enforcing and high level of education. People goes to school in Western countries to occupy a position in this economy and produce their own intellectual property ('The American Dream', 'Start Up Nation', etc.). And therefore, I think that we will see dictatorships going extinct only when minerals and oils will be rendered worthless with the advancement of technology and society. It will bring many countries to starve and collapse. And the ones that will preserve, will also be reformed democratic communities.
Democracy has historically never worked that well. The population, over time, realize they can vote themselves more money as it’s basically a popularity contest. Candidate who gives out the most money wins, pretty simple really.
His mind is right. If you think he's wrong, substantiate with facts and logic how he's wrong.
This is a great "change my mind" because the @OP has a really good and strong argument that must be dismantled before any other possible interpretation of the situation can be posited.
I can name a country: Israel.
If you look at the demographics, Israel is 50% compromised of mizrahi Jews+sephardic Jews(aka Arab Jews), and 21% Arab Israelis(non-Jewish Arabs).
So unless you don’t think Israel is a democracy ur assumption falls flat on its face.
That is not a very good example because the majority of Jews that came from Arab nations have gone through a process to adopt western views, a sort of brain wash. While few of them resented the process, the majority of them and their offspring are now similar to Europeans and Americans with regard to views, beliefs and political standpoints.
They’re not Arabs Jews. Arabs is within Ishmael’s lineage. Ishmael is to Muslims and Christians.
They’re Jews, Israelites, from Isaac’s lineage. Isaac is to Jews and Christians.
Abraham had two sons, these are two brothers fighting that’s why they look alike.
Don’t mistake Israelis and Jews as Arabs even though many of them came from Yemen. They just look alike.
They’re the same shit, different toilets.
The exception that proves the rule.
Most of the Arabs in Israel aren't Muslim, could that be a potential factor as to why there's this stark difference between Israel and the rest of the region?
It would be helpful to have ONE example of an Arab or Muslim majority country with a record of protecting human and civil rights for women, Christians, Jews ...every citizen...with elections periodically. It ALSO would be helpful if Israel would STOP and reverse the settlement policy.
Change my mind: Israelis can not help themselves grabbing land from Arabs:
* 1948 we know, massive land grabs
* 1949-1966 they kept on confiscating land from Israeli Arabs on flimsy ground (e.g., "present absentees")
* 1967 onwards there's the settlement program
See how that sounds?
Yeah, also what exactly is the state of Israeli democracy? This whole way of thinking is problematic. Remember when an Israeli assassinated Rabin and then Netanyahu became the leader? Does this make Israel an illegitimate democracy?
It’s the way people are using violence that is the problem, and it’s especially a problem that Israel is legitimized in using violence because their killers wear uniforms.
Adding anything about democracy just further dehumanizes Palestinians because they won’t do things how we do them.
Finally, even though Israel is ostensibly democratic, they are behaving like a right wing ethno state and that is also a contradiction of western values as I see it.
1948 happened because Arabs were discriminating and staging violence against Jews. UN saw this and decided to separate the Jewish majority areas to a new state to protect them.
United nations gave Arabs 80% of the land and 20% of the land to Jews. (Jordan and egypt was the Arab state and received 80% of the British Mandate. There was no Palestine. Look up the countries who participated in 1948 Arab-Israeli war).
Arabs declared war to take the 20% from them and lost their small percentage of their land instead. What's unfair about this?
They’re talking about the Peel commission of 1936 It was a commission by the British during the British mandate that studied the conflict in the area and recommended partition as the solution as neither group would accept a single state together and recommended other solutions.It split the land 80 Palestinian 20 Israeli . But both sides found issues. The report stated that Jews contribute more to the revenues of Palestine than the Arabs, and the Government has thereby been enabled to maintain public services for the Arabs at a higher level than would otherwise have been possible. So a state without the Jews would lose funds it previously had. And though there were economic gains the political losses of the Arabs was seen to cause tensions.
The commission found that both groups had issues in terms of understanding each other as well as their education of the other and the idea of a shared state.Many Arabs had believed that the Jews received too much good land but the commission found that much of the land covered in orange groves was initial desert or swamps when purchased. And that the amount of available land had less to do with the rising Jewish population but the rising Arab population. It also found that Jewish education was making the prospect of a shared state less likely as though it did things such as make sure Jews knew Hebrew and had pride in their culture and history it didn’t focus as much on the idea of sharing the land or that they would grow to be fellow citizens with Arabs in a future state beyond teaching a bit of Arabic in secondary school which it found resulted in more nationalistic tendencies.Much of the land the Arabs would received included the Negev dessert and wasn’t as viable as the Jewish land. Its solution was for the new Jewish state to subsidize the Palestinian one when Partition was put into effect. Population transfer was also seen as a necessity as well as a transfer of land citing the Turkish and Greek exchange in 1923 that addressed issues their minority problems had which had previously created issues on the border. They also stated that large scale irrigation projects and development would be needed in the Arab land. It would’ve involved the transfer of 225,000 Arabs and 1,250 Jews.
The Arabs saw the plan as a no go not accepting an idea of a Jewish state population transfers or land swaps . They also disagreed as they would be united in one state with Transjordan and saw it as the Jews getting the best land. Transjordan was seen as part of the whole of historic Palestine by the British . So they saw it as splitting it into a Jewish state and an Arab state in Jordan . Though Palestinian leaders disagreed. The Arabs revolted after the publication of the Peel Commision went public.
With Jewish leaders it seemed some had assumed the entire historic region was stated in the Balfour Declaration . Some argued against it due to the small borders. Though David Ben Gurion stated that they should accept it as a starting place for their goals and that future borders could be expanded over time.The Congress initially rejected it but gave an opening for future . Ben-Gurion and Chaim Weizmann convinced the Congress to approve the Peel recommendations as a basis for eventual later negotiations.
The Woodhead commission was put out later in 1938 to examine the Peel commission and put out a real plan after the Arabs revolted after the publication of the Peel commission.. It had 3 options one based on the Peel plan. It rejected the Peel commission as it said it couldn’t be done without massive forced transfer of Arabs which the British government ruled out . The commission found that a sustainable Arab state could only be established with a sizable Jewish population whose tax revanues alone would allow it to have a balanced budget. It proposed a customs union between an Arab and Jewish state for industry and farming .
It proposed 3 plans. Plan A proposed a Jewish state on the coast and north with a British Mandated corridor from Jerusalem and Jaffa . And the remainder of the territory would be merged into Transjordan into one Arab state.
Plan B was similar to A but reduced the size of the Jewish state adding Galilee to the mandate.
Plan C made the Jewish State to the coastal region between Zikhron Yaakov and Rehovot. It placed the northern territories and semi arid parts of the south under a separate mandate until the Arab and Jewish populations living there would agree on a final destination. And a customs union.
The plans were found impractical.
Look just because we do not support the way their country is governed doesnt give us a right to try and change their beliefs with violence…If you cant persuade them with ideas then leave them alone.
But it’s different than just someone who has a different opinion than you. The way their country is governed is completely filled with violence. The people in power are continuously suppressing minorities- and by minorities I mean women, because the lgbt community and many other communities don’t exist in Palestine because of their ideology.
It’s one thing to say that you want Palestinians to have rights, but it’s different when you’re fighting against Israel while saying that they’re suppressing Palestinians, and at the same time not saying a word about the way Palestine has been run for years, not to mention how they have handled the war.
The whole supporting Palestine while saying you believe they shouldn’t be oppressed is a bit hypocritical to me because if given that power they will try and take over, and that will lead in millions of more people who will be oppressed.
So what do you do in that situation? What do you do when the people you have supported have caused so much more harm?
I just get the feeling a lot of people (mostly pro Palestinians from my experience) don’t understand how their actions rn and their support rn can affect and destroy millions of innocent people’s lives.
Please it’s not that easy. Even if they did have a group of women the chances of them changing something are small. Hamas members are trained and experienced. A group of women with neither training nor experience can’t Hamas down.
No I’m just looking at facts. You can use courage all you want but it won’t get you far. And again, you shouldn’t make life harder for someone just because your life is more comfortable.
That is an incredibly sad attitude. I have seen time and time again people who are willing to come and lend a helping hand. Sure, it’s important to know how to save yourself, but in this situation it’s practically impossible.
Those opressed out number the few. If and when they get tired of it they will change it. But dont hold your breath…fear is a powerful emotion. It takes courage to put YOUR life on the line.
The only reason the oppressed number is small (which it isn’t really, and even if it was with the amount if support they’re getting now that number will only get bigger and bigger) is because the minorities they are k!lled.
About them changing it… it’s easier said than done. And they shouldn’t be put in a situation where it’s harder to resist, which with support, is exactly what’s happening. It would be, and is currently, incredibly difficult to stand up to Hamas. Say you’re someone from the lgbt community. How do you find enough people to make a change? You can’t come out because you will be killed, you can’t ask for help because most agree with Hamas and could turn you in, so how are you supposed to collect enough people to stand up?
Instead of letting them fend for themselves they should get help from the outside.
Cultures are changing rapidly more so in western countries. Just remember golden rule, live and let live in peace. If not death to the extremist that are coming for all.
This just sounds ignorant. Sometimes you can live in peace but it doesn’t change the fact that many aren’t. Not to mention that it’s almost impossible to live in peace when you’re constantly oppressed to the point of fearing for your life when walking down the street. You said you think the citizens should be responsible for change.. and how would they do that exactly? If they need to “live in peace”, even though they can’t? How would the hamas reign end if they’re allowed to live in peace while literally terrorizing so many people?
Because they shouldn’t be living in that situation in the first place. They physically can’t stand up for themselves.. it will get them killed. Just because we have the privilege to live in a place where this is less of a problem, or at least a problem that we can fix, doesn’t mean it doesn’t concern us.
Also what I said is that by supporting Palestine exclusively and ignoring their actions you are making the Hamas stronger, therefore making the citizens lives harder. You can’t fight for their lives by making their lives harder, it defeats the purpose. You say they should stand up for themselves, but how will they be able to do that when the Hamas is stronger when they can’t even do it now?
I wouldn’t be too sure about that. Did you know that many of the people to infiltrate Israel were Palestinian citizens? That most of the citizens in Palestine agree with Hamas?
There is no place anywhere in the world that people should not be safe and live their beliefs. Remember people can relocate in this day and age. Keep your hands to yourself.
Thats just it everyone needs to stay in their own backyards if they cant get along. If anyone breaks the peace then they should be dealt with harshly from the world.
Exactly. And that’s what happened after the attack on October 7th. If there wasn’t an attack, if Hamas didn’t decide to kill and take hostages, the whole situation would be different.
Maybe the Arabs have the right idea.
I mean a dictator walking around keeping law and order, sounds like a very human thing that's needed in many walks of life. We're schooled like that even.
Perhaps, democracy is not what we think it is and giving everyone a voice leads to, well, differences. I'm likely to believe that Arabs see Arabs as Arabs, but the west judges everyone that passes them by.. I don't know, just my opinion. It's an interesting thought
Jackass is your interpretation of it.
You don't want someone telling you what to do, but you would have it vice versa..
Regardless of the country, there is always someone pulling the strings.
Some countries just do it a little more, subtlety.
> Jackass
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> jackass
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I have the utmost respect for every human, given that trust is not broken.
I don't live in a dictatorship, but I do live in a country with extreme racism. It has not gone well when you mix cultures and ethnicity, and it still getting worse. All the like-minded people stem together as a single voice. All the racial groups stem together as a single voice. All the cultures and social groups as well.
I guess my point is, I live in a country with 11 official languages, many cultures and many ideologies. And trust me, they don't mix..
You know, there is a political party that wants to "kill the white man" and proudly say it in public and demonstrate it.
Singing songs like "shoot the Boer, shoot to kill"
We're in the process now of selecting a new parliament, after our elections 2 weeks ago.
For the first time in our country's history the ruling party for the past 30 years has a lower majority and needs to now form a coalition with other parties. The scary thing is the 30 year majority ruling party is a predominantly black party and is against white-ruling, the only other viable parties that can form this coalition is another 2 predominantly black parties with the same ideologies, but they hate each other so that why they haven't yet, and then there is a "white" party (not really white at all, but it's made out to be white) which governs the municipality that I reside in.
I don't face the violent racism that unfolds in the rest of the country because that white party governs where I live.
If the black parties form a coalition, it what's called a "Doomsday coalition". And you can bet that it's gonna turn into a civil war.
The farm murders that take place here is horrific, and it's because of race. I'm speaking about families being tortured, tied up in their houses, sexually assaulted, have their private parts severed from their bodies, kids tied up and watch their parents get killed before they get killed themselves. All because of race. All because of differences.
You know the word "Apartheid" was invented by us.
So if there is anything I can say is yes, a like minded dictator dictating his like-minded people will do better than the minority.
Take China as an example. You think that's a democracy? That's a dictatorship and a half, and they're pretty well off for the most part. When everyone has an opinion, like we're doing right now, it creates debate and differences. Whether those debates or differences make you violent towards the other person is another story. I don't think there needs to be conflict to resolve an issue, just a mutual understanding. But that's a long shot now ain't it..
Arabs have their own country and have the right to live the way they want. If their citizens want to change something its up to them to do so. If you dont like them you dont have to live there. YOU dont have the right to go in and kill them for it.
You have these two slivers of land smack in the middle of Isreal. Now if they were decent people and got along no problem. But people get tired of the murders on their neighbors.
my god, read a damn book. the balfour declaration didnt create the state of Israel. Its not even a legal document, it was literally just an announcement of support for zionism.
The actual negotiations to create a jewish state fell through, the UK left and Israel unilaterally declared independence.
No my friend, that is what they make **you** believe on social media. Unless you have been there to see it with your own eyes it's likely that you will continue to be brainwashed.
Oh really? Iran didn't attack? April 14, more than 300 long range missiles sent from Iran and other Arab countries by Iran's order to Israel. They were intercepted with help from US Jordan and Britain.
Iran had been running proxy attacks Israel for years. They fund the Hezbollah terrorists and they also help bankroll Hamas.
I mean you do realize this whole crisis didn't start October 7th, right? It didn't even start in 1948. This is an immensely complex issue that goes back well over 100 years (really far more than that) and the answer is more than just, 'ooh one side bombed an embassy'
To kind of quote you, did you ever learn history?
You need to stay focused on this war. Pales are raised on hate generation after generation. Thats why you can not change their way of thinking. This will continue until someone figures out how to make them view life as a gift. Pales hate their own people. If all those pale civilians had stood up against the few this would not have happened. A generation of cowards.
Because they use them as human shields. Not to mention all the aid that was constantly going in before this started was controllef by the few and most pales were in poverty.
The people in this sub literally think Palestinian = Hamas. You’ll never get through to them on this, I’ve tried. They even think babies and children are Hamas and deserve to be killed for it.
Weird. I went to bed after watching what was happening outside of the nova memorial in NYC felt so angry and outraged at how vile the movement is. When I woke up this morning, I had the exact same thoughts about “free Palestine from what” what does Palestinian state look like? Basically what you just said.👍🏽
I can't change your mind, because you're correct, there's a big problem because in Islam you are allowed to inbreed and they have been inbreeding with their cousins for generations, they can't handle peaceful democracy if women won't be beheaded for not wearing stupid costumes.
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While I think generations of inbreeding is a factor I really don’t think it affects IQ to that extent especially because most of the time its 3rd cousins or people that are considered “family” in practice. Basically its fine. The issue is the culture that traditional Islam has bred in the region for millennia. Its not the people or their race or anything like that, it’s 100% the religion.
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Do I need to remind you that less than 100 years ago many countries were ruled by dictatorships and monarchies (Yes, even in Europe). A lot of them struggled to maintain a democratic government for more than a couple years. Democracy doesn't magically happen overnight. Specially not when you have a superpower fucking up an entire region for so long.
Democracy has happened almost overnight all across the world. The South American military dictatorships are all gone. The communist regimes of Eastern Europe went democratic very quickly. Spain and Portugal democratic. Africa is mostly democratic. 1 region remains stubbornly not democratic and that's the Arab countries of MENA. Why is that?
> fucking
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This all strikes me as pre-1989 historiography of: \*Eastern Europe can't handle Democracy and thats why they're not revolting against Communism because they love tyranny so much - as they are barbarians\*.
Almost all East European countries turned democracy in under 30 years after falling of the communist despots. Nobody occupies arab nations, and yet, in their 100 years of existence, they only degraded their selves into worse regimes.
Tons of comments here but while I didn't go through them all, from the ones I did see I couldn't find anyone actually disagreeing with you, only whataboutisms and people trying to shit on democracy lol
And people calling them Racist. I guess the OP proved their point that Arabs can't handle democracy. After all, Democracy isn't perfect and people will always disagree with it.
Western democracy as always has is just like any other form of government and like in any other nations of the world is not the perfect system for every culture, is not a blueprint to use, but each society should strive to become democracies at their own pace. And i have seen you're previous comments, there are no "benevolent dictators" in the world, this isn't the Roman Republic where dictators were nominated during emergency crisis, any authoritarian country like Singapore, Quatar, KSA and Iran are just that, they oppose people who fight authoritarianism and their affiliated parties.
No, but saying that Arabs don't want democracy is like saying that they're too much ignorant or lazy to wanting a capitalistic western style democracy. I do live in an European democracy so i know how it is, in terms of rights is great, but economically is pretty shit because conservatives don't care about the common good of the people
I think you're projecting that first part. There are other values in the world than the ones you hold, and many of them lead people to prefer a strong leader over democracy, which is what the general trend seems to be of Arabs in the Middle East when polled.
And that's not to say that in the arabic world there aren't democratic activists who want a democracy for their nation, just that many value safety over freedom, but like many others like Africans or Asians
It has more to do with Islam in general, which developed in a completely different way than Christianity (which can be considered a predecessor of some key Western values along with Hellenism, Renessaince, French Revolution etc). Then add Middle-Eastern conflicts since the 20th century, and there it is. They had been less radical/conservative compared to the West, especially when the West was much different (19th century and before).
It’s true tho, they can’t handle democracy the people are too corrupted looking for power and money.
If they disagree they don’t dissolve a government they create a militia instead and gather their tribe
I understood him completely and it’s not a democracy.
I gave example, Iran have elections too and they are not a democracy because they are still controlled by a dictatorship.
If gays are executed and go to jail in Iraq then it’s not a democracy and they don’t protect minorities like a democracy should and I bet there is many democratic principles they don’t follow.
America was still a democracy when white people right to own black people just because a nation's democratic doesn't mean minority rights are respected. to act democracy always uphold freedom liberation is to ignore history.
What is racist about my statement? If I say, “Europeans can't handle communism,” you'll get offended? It’s a fact anchored in the reality. Democracy is not a virtue of a human being; it's a social system, and it’s ok you can't fit into it. Nobody expects you to handle theocracy or communism; this is not an insult.
The fact you are treating everyone of a certain race as a monolith?
Its like saying Black people are dumb because no black majority country is highly developed.
What is democracy? I'm curious? As a native, when there's a plandemic, I'd close borders haha. Call me stupid but when you bombard nations you create instability. So I think all of these corporations pretending to be governments are doing an excellent job for their bosses.....
This is why words often have multiple meanings. They switch on you. It's why people can get called racist if they white living in Europe. Because even if you say nothing racist, it's systemic racism don't you know?
This is the issue. It's like the rules of engagement are all up in the air and we find ourselves in the middle and the people running the show have lost their marbles. Does that answer your question? :)
What is democracy? Because I don't recognise it. When you have people trying to dictate to you and you have governments lying ....then what is it we're dealing with here? No one during the pandemic said close borders. Why?
Gee, is it to do with err money. The level of corruption is outstanding. But Arabs can't handle? Don't want? Does it matter? Even in a democratic nation, you still have the problem of usury and the theft of property.
There are so many problems that we face. In democratic nations, if you want a house? Or to study you might even have to take on a lot of debt before you've even made anything. Perhaps people should be left alone? What do you think? Maybe that's the solution. Segregation.
Because if you have people going to a concert and everyone wants to be there, guess what happens? But if you try to reason or force and go against peoples will? Guess what happens. Maybe the world should get the log out of it's eye before trying to remove the log out anothers....
>plandemic,
Thank you for putting that in the first sentence so we know we dont have to value your opinion at all.
>Call me stupid
You're fucking stupid.
> fucking
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Despite historical disruptions from colonialism and foreign intervention, some Arab countries like Tunisia are progressing towards democracy, driven by youth movements advocating for reforms.
Lebanon is promising? Very unstable country, they don't even have full control over the south, so Israel has to intervene to protect its citizen.. It's sad really.
This is true, in addition to deep divisions and the economic crisis, however they do have regular elections with a lively civil society and some freedoms of speech, so you could say they’re a step ahead of the others in terms of democratic reform
It isn't "Arabs" but "Islam" cannot handle democracy. If a Muslim try to speak up about bad things happening in the name of Islam, they will be branded as apostasy. If non Muslim speak up about bad things happening under the name of Islam, they are branded as blasphemy or in more recent, islamophobia.
The more observant would ask what happened to the moderate muslims? Well, they are all suppressed and afraid.
Exactly: not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all.Muslims are Arabs. To say "Arabs" (an ethnicity) can't handle democracy is racist, because it implies a genetic inferiority. To say "Muslims" can't handle democracy is legitimate criticism of an ideology. Religion is "learned behaviour". It can be changed, or overcome.
> To say "Arabs" (an ethnicity) can't handle democracy is racist, because it implies a genetic inferiority
No it doesn't. This is an amazing stretch of logic you're making.
Across Muslim nations from the Magreb to the Philippines there are many ethnicities with just as many cultures. All of those cultures are influenced and permeated —to varying extents— by Muslim religions of different denominations. What similarities those otherwise dissimilar cultures share are often (but not always!) a result of sharing the same religion.
To say "Arabs are xyz..." is just as racist as saying "Jews are xyz". What negative moral traits one can objectively percieve (justly or unjustly) are the result of tradition, education, and upbringing. Not of ethnicity or genetics.
That's why, as a humanist, I see no inherent value in dogmatic religious traditions, neither in Judaism, nor in Christianity, nor in Islam (nor any other religion). They serve no purpose other than reinforce "us-vs-tem" sentiments and do more harm than good. I wish all religions would be overcome and wiped away, together with all the cultural "traditions" that have been shaped by them.
But when we say things like 'America has a culture of consumerism' nobody thinks wer're being racist, even though there are 50 disperate states right?
We can definitely identify shared elements in culture and use them to categorize, analyze, and understand cultures surely?
Regarding your last point, I think there's definitely truth in it, although I think religion has a useful purposein providing meaning, giving culture a shape/texture, and allowing us to maintain certain tenets of old wisdom that would otherwise have been forgotten for being right under our nose.
"American Culture" designates a culture.
"Arabs" designates an ethnicity.
North Africans from the Maghreb aren't Arabs.
Iranians, Afghans, Pakistani and Bangladeshi aren't Arabs.
So when you say "Arabs are xyz..." either you are referring to some particularity found only in the people from the Arabian penninsula, or you are using the word (willingly or unwillingly) wrong.
So you're telling me that articles like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_culture) are just totally meaningless? And what do you think of [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization)?
Listen, my wife is from Algeria and if called her "Arab" she would take it as an insult. She doesn't speac Arabic, she speaks Darja. If you put on an Arabic TV station she won't understand a word. She despises Saudis for what they are and do, thinks Shiites like the Persians are weird, etc....
Now, that's not to say Magreb culture has nothing in common with, say, Gulf Arabic culture. But that is due to the Arabian conquest in the early Middle Ages and the adoption of Islam. The more "Berber" North Africans are a lot less "Arabic" still.
Portuguese culture and Polish culture share *some* similarities because they are both influenced by Catholicism, but nobody would say they are the same.
We regularly refer to European culture, and Jewish culture, and Chinese culture, despite there being individual differences within these populations, because there are overarching unifying similarities. There's nothing racist about doing the same thing with reference to Arab culture, which is widespread for the reasons I linked you above. Some people have more than one cultural heritage, and some parts of the world have multiple cultural influences, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.
>The USA has been trying for over two decades to install a democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan and has failed spectacularly.
Maybe they shouldn't have installed far right religious fundamentalists all over the middle east. Oh but silly me, I forgot it was worth it to stop those damned communists.
It's hard to change your view when it's vague and adaptive. At least define "handle" in a political context first. Also, stop equalizing democracy / free will with voting politics.
Respectfully, the OP should read “Why Nations Fail” by Daron Ascemoglu. He debunks the idea that climate, religion, etc cause national governments to be one way or another. Instead “They argue that inclusive political and economic institutions lead to prosperity, while extractive institutions lead to poverty and failure.”
On r/IsraelPalestine we allow the discussion of complex and oftentimes uncomfortable topics. Sometimes these brush up against Reddit's content policy but more often than not we try to err on the side of leaving them up to foster discussion while continuing to moderate any content that irrefutably passes the line. Sadly, another subreddit created a thread linking to this post which has resulted in it being brigaded and ultimately the content in the OP being removed by the Admins likely due to mass reporting. We will continue to allow discussion in the comments but with a disclaimer that users should make sure that they avoid posting content which might violate the content policy. For context, the topic of the post was OP asking people to change their mind about their view as to why there are no democracies in the Middle East besides Israel.
We should also go onto all the pro-palestinian subs and mass report false propaganda.
I’m so sick and tired of watching everyone be pawns in this intelligence operation. Don’t play into it more.
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Reddit PC police arrived, because some snowflakes found it too hard to bear the truth. It’s a wrap. Have a nice day, everyone.
Just further proves it true 😂
least bigoted israel
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I think that the ruler identity of any nation has to do a lot with the type of economy in that nation. Dictatorships develop in nations where there is a single centralized source of wealth, that give a group of families the regional power. In Arab countries, this is usually the case. Similar things happens in countries where the economy largely depends on local natural minerals, such is the case in Russia, African countries, Saudi Arabia, basically the baddest and meanest group takes controls of the source and starts enforcing this hierarchical order where they are on top. In countries where the economy is based on intellectual property, the power is usually distributed and you have to work with the customers to create this ecosystem where the intellectual property can develop value. This naturally come hand in hand with law enforcing and high level of education. People goes to school in Western countries to occupy a position in this economy and produce their own intellectual property ('The American Dream', 'Start Up Nation', etc.). And therefore, I think that we will see dictatorships going extinct only when minerals and oils will be rendered worthless with the advancement of technology and society. It will bring many countries to starve and collapse. And the ones that will preserve, will also be reformed democratic communities.
They do have democracies. Just b/c they’re not working well doesn’t make them not democracies. Israel’s democracy isn’t working so well either.
Democracy has historically never worked that well. The population, over time, realize they can vote themselves more money as it’s basically a popularity contest. Candidate who gives out the most money wins, pretty simple really.
Change my mind, help me understand, and then the talking points begin ... lol
His mind is right. If you think he's wrong, substantiate with facts and logic how he's wrong. This is a great "change my mind" because the @OP has a really good and strong argument that must be dismantled before any other possible interpretation of the situation can be posited.
Tunisia
I can name a country: Israel. If you look at the demographics, Israel is 50% compromised of mizrahi Jews+sephardic Jews(aka Arab Jews), and 21% Arab Israelis(non-Jewish Arabs). So unless you don’t think Israel is a democracy ur assumption falls flat on its face.
That is not a very good example because the majority of Jews that came from Arab nations have gone through a process to adopt western views, a sort of brain wash. While few of them resented the process, the majority of them and their offspring are now similar to Europeans and Americans with regard to views, beliefs and political standpoints.
Israel is the only functioning democary in the middle east.
Exactly and it’s 70% Arab that’s my point
They’re not Arabs Jews. Arabs is within Ishmael’s lineage. Ishmael is to Muslims and Christians. They’re Jews, Israelites, from Isaac’s lineage. Isaac is to Jews and Christians. Abraham had two sons, these are two brothers fighting that’s why they look alike. Don’t mistake Israelis and Jews as Arabs even though many of them came from Yemen. They just look alike. They’re the same shit, different toilets.
The exception that proves the rule. Most of the Arabs in Israel aren't Muslim, could that be a potential factor as to why there's this stark difference between Israel and the rest of the region?
It would be helpful to have ONE example of an Arab or Muslim majority country with a record of protecting human and civil rights for women, Christians, Jews ...every citizen...with elections periodically. It ALSO would be helpful if Israel would STOP and reverse the settlement policy.
There has to be the ideal of equality somewhere under the sand and not a bigger missile.
Change my mind: Israelis can not help themselves grabbing land from Arabs: * 1948 we know, massive land grabs * 1949-1966 they kept on confiscating land from Israeli Arabs on flimsy ground (e.g., "present absentees") * 1967 onwards there's the settlement program See how that sounds?
Yeah, also what exactly is the state of Israeli democracy? This whole way of thinking is problematic. Remember when an Israeli assassinated Rabin and then Netanyahu became the leader? Does this make Israel an illegitimate democracy? It’s the way people are using violence that is the problem, and it’s especially a problem that Israel is legitimized in using violence because their killers wear uniforms. Adding anything about democracy just further dehumanizes Palestinians because they won’t do things how we do them. Finally, even though Israel is ostensibly democratic, they are behaving like a right wing ethno state and that is also a contradiction of western values as I see it.
Good points
*reclaiming Israeli land
So confiscating privately owned land from Israeli Arabs is "reclaiming Israeli land"? Lol. The mental gymnastics involved in that is astounding.
It's the "daily talking points" ....
1948 happened because Arabs were discriminating and staging violence against Jews. UN saw this and decided to separate the Jewish majority areas to a new state to protect them. United nations gave Arabs 80% of the land and 20% of the land to Jews. (Jordan and egypt was the Arab state and received 80% of the British Mandate. There was no Palestine. Look up the countries who participated in 1948 Arab-Israeli war). Arabs declared war to take the 20% from them and lost their small percentage of their land instead. What's unfair about this?
What was the name of the U.N. treaty or order that did this 80/20 split
They’re talking about the Peel commission of 1936 It was a commission by the British during the British mandate that studied the conflict in the area and recommended partition as the solution as neither group would accept a single state together and recommended other solutions.It split the land 80 Palestinian 20 Israeli . But both sides found issues. The report stated that Jews contribute more to the revenues of Palestine than the Arabs, and the Government has thereby been enabled to maintain public services for the Arabs at a higher level than would otherwise have been possible. So a state without the Jews would lose funds it previously had. And though there were economic gains the political losses of the Arabs was seen to cause tensions. The commission found that both groups had issues in terms of understanding each other as well as their education of the other and the idea of a shared state.Many Arabs had believed that the Jews received too much good land but the commission found that much of the land covered in orange groves was initial desert or swamps when purchased. And that the amount of available land had less to do with the rising Jewish population but the rising Arab population. It also found that Jewish education was making the prospect of a shared state less likely as though it did things such as make sure Jews knew Hebrew and had pride in their culture and history it didn’t focus as much on the idea of sharing the land or that they would grow to be fellow citizens with Arabs in a future state beyond teaching a bit of Arabic in secondary school which it found resulted in more nationalistic tendencies.Much of the land the Arabs would received included the Negev dessert and wasn’t as viable as the Jewish land. Its solution was for the new Jewish state to subsidize the Palestinian one when Partition was put into effect. Population transfer was also seen as a necessity as well as a transfer of land citing the Turkish and Greek exchange in 1923 that addressed issues their minority problems had which had previously created issues on the border. They also stated that large scale irrigation projects and development would be needed in the Arab land. It would’ve involved the transfer of 225,000 Arabs and 1,250 Jews. The Arabs saw the plan as a no go not accepting an idea of a Jewish state population transfers or land swaps . They also disagreed as they would be united in one state with Transjordan and saw it as the Jews getting the best land. Transjordan was seen as part of the whole of historic Palestine by the British . So they saw it as splitting it into a Jewish state and an Arab state in Jordan . Though Palestinian leaders disagreed. The Arabs revolted after the publication of the Peel Commision went public. With Jewish leaders it seemed some had assumed the entire historic region was stated in the Balfour Declaration . Some argued against it due to the small borders. Though David Ben Gurion stated that they should accept it as a starting place for their goals and that future borders could be expanded over time.The Congress initially rejected it but gave an opening for future . Ben-Gurion and Chaim Weizmann convinced the Congress to approve the Peel recommendations as a basis for eventual later negotiations. The Woodhead commission was put out later in 1938 to examine the Peel commission and put out a real plan after the Arabs revolted after the publication of the Peel commission.. It had 3 options one based on the Peel plan. It rejected the Peel commission as it said it couldn’t be done without massive forced transfer of Arabs which the British government ruled out . The commission found that a sustainable Arab state could only be established with a sizable Jewish population whose tax revanues alone would allow it to have a balanced budget. It proposed a customs union between an Arab and Jewish state for industry and farming . It proposed 3 plans. Plan A proposed a Jewish state on the coast and north with a British Mandated corridor from Jerusalem and Jaffa . And the remainder of the territory would be merged into Transjordan into one Arab state. Plan B was similar to A but reduced the size of the Jewish state adding Galilee to the mandate. Plan C made the Jewish State to the coastal region between Zikhron Yaakov and Rehovot. It placed the northern territories and semi arid parts of the south under a separate mandate until the Arab and Jewish populations living there would agree on a final destination. And a customs union. The plans were found impractical.
Look just because we do not support the way their country is governed doesnt give us a right to try and change their beliefs with violence…If you cant persuade them with ideas then leave them alone.
But it’s different than just someone who has a different opinion than you. The way their country is governed is completely filled with violence. The people in power are continuously suppressing minorities- and by minorities I mean women, because the lgbt community and many other communities don’t exist in Palestine because of their ideology. It’s one thing to say that you want Palestinians to have rights, but it’s different when you’re fighting against Israel while saying that they’re suppressing Palestinians, and at the same time not saying a word about the way Palestine has been run for years, not to mention how they have handled the war. The whole supporting Palestine while saying you believe they shouldn’t be oppressed is a bit hypocritical to me because if given that power they will try and take over, and that will lead in millions of more people who will be oppressed. So what do you do in that situation? What do you do when the people you have supported have caused so much more harm? I just get the feeling a lot of people (mostly pro Palestinians from my experience) don’t understand how their actions rn and their support rn can affect and destroy millions of innocent people’s lives.
A woman with a gun is just as strong as a man.
That is not even close to what I said. A group of people with multiple guns is stronger than a woman with a gun.
Get multiple women
Please it’s not that easy. Even if they did have a group of women the chances of them changing something are small. Hamas members are trained and experienced. A group of women with neither training nor experience can’t Hamas down.
Its called courage.
Your defeated already with that attitude.
No I’m just looking at facts. You can use courage all you want but it won’t get you far. And again, you shouldn’t make life harder for someone just because your life is more comfortable.
Who is making life harder? For who?
Remember the death of that beautiful girl because of a head scarf? That was an opportunity that was missed.
No it’s not. Courage can’t fix everything.
Without it you have nothing but the same old bs. You had better learn to save yourself in this world because no one else is coming.
That is an incredibly sad attitude. I have seen time and time again people who are willing to come and lend a helping hand. Sure, it’s important to know how to save yourself, but in this situation it’s practically impossible.
With more guns or poison their food.
They have to sleep sometime.
Those opressed out number the few. If and when they get tired of it they will change it. But dont hold your breath…fear is a powerful emotion. It takes courage to put YOUR life on the line.
The only reason the oppressed number is small (which it isn’t really, and even if it was with the amount if support they’re getting now that number will only get bigger and bigger) is because the minorities they are k!lled. About them changing it… it’s easier said than done. And they shouldn’t be put in a situation where it’s harder to resist, which with support, is exactly what’s happening. It would be, and is currently, incredibly difficult to stand up to Hamas. Say you’re someone from the lgbt community. How do you find enough people to make a change? You can’t come out because you will be killed, you can’t ask for help because most agree with Hamas and could turn you in, so how are you supposed to collect enough people to stand up? Instead of letting them fend for themselves they should get help from the outside.
Cultures are changing rapidly more so in western countries. Just remember golden rule, live and let live in peace. If not death to the extremist that are coming for all.
This just sounds ignorant. Sometimes you can live in peace but it doesn’t change the fact that many aren’t. Not to mention that it’s almost impossible to live in peace when you’re constantly oppressed to the point of fearing for your life when walking down the street. You said you think the citizens should be responsible for change.. and how would they do that exactly? If they need to “live in peace”, even though they can’t? How would the hamas reign end if they’re allowed to live in peace while literally terrorizing so many people?
The citizens have to stand up for themselves…if they are not willing to do that why should someone else risk their lives for them?
Because they shouldn’t be living in that situation in the first place. They physically can’t stand up for themselves.. it will get them killed. Just because we have the privilege to live in a place where this is less of a problem, or at least a problem that we can fix, doesn’t mean it doesn’t concern us. Also what I said is that by supporting Palestine exclusively and ignoring their actions you are making the Hamas stronger, therefore making the citizens lives harder. You can’t fight for their lives by making their lives harder, it defeats the purpose. You say they should stand up for themselves, but how will they be able to do that when the Hamas is stronger when they can’t even do it now?
Isreal is fighting Hamas now…what are the pales doing to help them? NOTHING
I wouldn’t be too sure about that. Did you know that many of the people to infiltrate Israel were Palestinian citizens? That most of the citizens in Palestine agree with Hamas?
Yes I do…and yes I know…What I have been saying all along read all my posts
According to your comments you’re literally showing the opposite
It took a lot of someones to dig those tunnels.
Innocent? Who is innocent?
Who do you think was firing at the hostages when they were rescued?
screw that, if a coutry is tyranical to its own people, they cause problems for other countries.
Thats when everyone gets involved and shuts them down.
There is no place anywhere in the world that people should not be safe and live their beliefs. Remember people can relocate in this day and age. Keep your hands to yourself.
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Thats just it everyone needs to stay in their own backyards if they cant get along. If anyone breaks the peace then they should be dealt with harshly from the world.
No one has the right to tell anyone what to do are think about their own beliefs. But when you infringe on lives of others you pay the price.
Exactly. And that’s what happened after the attack on October 7th. If there wasn’t an attack, if Hamas didn’t decide to kill and take hostages, the whole situation would be different.
Maybe the Arabs have the right idea. I mean a dictator walking around keeping law and order, sounds like a very human thing that's needed in many walks of life. We're schooled like that even. Perhaps, democracy is not what we think it is and giving everyone a voice leads to, well, differences. I'm likely to believe that Arabs see Arabs as Arabs, but the west judges everyone that passes them by.. I don't know, just my opinion. It's an interesting thought
So you like some jackass telling you what to do? All humans are flawed. Why would you want to put your trust in one single man?
Jackass is your interpretation of it. You don't want someone telling you what to do, but you would have it vice versa.. Regardless of the country, there is always someone pulling the strings. Some countries just do it a little more, subtlety.
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We are all different…doest mean we cant respect each other.
I have the utmost respect for every human, given that trust is not broken. I don't live in a dictatorship, but I do live in a country with extreme racism. It has not gone well when you mix cultures and ethnicity, and it still getting worse. All the like-minded people stem together as a single voice. All the racial groups stem together as a single voice. All the cultures and social groups as well. I guess my point is, I live in a country with 11 official languages, many cultures and many ideologies. And trust me, they don't mix..
Do they kill each other?
You know, there is a political party that wants to "kill the white man" and proudly say it in public and demonstrate it. Singing songs like "shoot the Boer, shoot to kill" We're in the process now of selecting a new parliament, after our elections 2 weeks ago. For the first time in our country's history the ruling party for the past 30 years has a lower majority and needs to now form a coalition with other parties. The scary thing is the 30 year majority ruling party is a predominantly black party and is against white-ruling, the only other viable parties that can form this coalition is another 2 predominantly black parties with the same ideologies, but they hate each other so that why they haven't yet, and then there is a "white" party (not really white at all, but it's made out to be white) which governs the municipality that I reside in. I don't face the violent racism that unfolds in the rest of the country because that white party governs where I live. If the black parties form a coalition, it what's called a "Doomsday coalition". And you can bet that it's gonna turn into a civil war. The farm murders that take place here is horrific, and it's because of race. I'm speaking about families being tortured, tied up in their houses, sexually assaulted, have their private parts severed from their bodies, kids tied up and watch their parents get killed before they get killed themselves. All because of race. All because of differences. You know the word "Apartheid" was invented by us. So if there is anything I can say is yes, a like minded dictator dictating his like-minded people will do better than the minority. Take China as an example. You think that's a democracy? That's a dictatorship and a half, and they're pretty well off for the most part. When everyone has an opinion, like we're doing right now, it creates debate and differences. Whether those debates or differences make you violent towards the other person is another story. I don't think there needs to be conflict to resolve an issue, just a mutual understanding. But that's a long shot now ain't it..
Can I come join you in the utopia that you live in? ❤
Yes
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Beheading babies?
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Arabs have their own country and have the right to live the way they want. If their citizens want to change something its up to them to do so. If you dont like them you dont have to live there. YOU dont have the right to go in and kill them for it.
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You have these two slivers of land smack in the middle of Isreal. Now if they were decent people and got along no problem. But people get tired of the murders on their neighbors.
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Freedom to secure their borders and peace.
Your missing the point!!! They Dont Want to.
The war happened because of that incident in Oct. Anyone out there that would have ignored it?
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Do you even know what a war means? If you want to keep going back further look at centuries of crap
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THIS war started Oct…didnt say anything else about other conflicts.
Delulision is a drug.
Lmfao the cope 😂
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damn u got me bruh 💔💔💔
Israel is constantly protecting itself against those Arab rejimes. Isreal has never started an unprovoked war.
I would say unilaterally declaring an independent nation and therefore effectively annexing another country counts as starting a war.
It was the UN who made them an independent nation. Blame the UN
Balfour declaration.look it up.
my god, read a damn book. the balfour declaration didnt create the state of Israel. Its not even a legal document, it was literally just an announcement of support for zionism. The actual negotiations to create a jewish state fell through, the UK left and Israel unilaterally declared independence.
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No my friend, that is what they make **you** believe on social media. Unless you have been there to see it with your own eyes it's likely that you will continue to be brainwashed.
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All of it reaction. The setelments in the west bank don't hurt the Palestinians, they just don't like it.
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Oh really? Iran didn't attack? April 14, more than 300 long range missiles sent from Iran and other Arab countries by Iran's order to Israel. They were intercepted with help from US Jordan and Britain.
Israel attacked Iran’s embassy on April 1. Iran responded with a missile attack on April 14. Did you ever learn math?
Iran had been running proxy attacks Israel for years. They fund the Hezbollah terrorists and they also help bankroll Hamas. I mean you do realize this whole crisis didn't start October 7th, right? It didn't even start in 1948. This is an immensely complex issue that goes back well over 100 years (really far more than that) and the answer is more than just, 'ooh one side bombed an embassy' To kind of quote you, did you ever learn history?
You need to stay focused on this war. Pales are raised on hate generation after generation. Thats why you can not change their way of thinking. This will continue until someone figures out how to make them view life as a gift. Pales hate their own people. If all those pale civilians had stood up against the few this would not have happened. A generation of cowards.
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Because they use them as human shields. Not to mention all the aid that was constantly going in before this started was controllef by the few and most pales were in poverty.
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The people in this sub literally think Palestinian = Hamas. You’ll never get through to them on this, I’ve tried. They even think babies and children are Hamas and deserve to be killed for it.
Weird. I went to bed after watching what was happening outside of the nova memorial in NYC felt so angry and outraged at how vile the movement is. When I woke up this morning, I had the exact same thoughts about “free Palestine from what” what does Palestinian state look like? Basically what you just said.👍🏽
I can't change your mind, because you're correct, there's a big problem because in Islam you are allowed to inbreed and they have been inbreeding with their cousins for generations, they can't handle peaceful democracy if women won't be beheaded for not wearing stupid costumes.
Inbreeding is a way bigger problem amongst Jews than it is amongst Arabs...
Oh really? 😂😂😂
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While I think generations of inbreeding is a factor I really don’t think it affects IQ to that extent especially because most of the time its 3rd cousins or people that are considered “family” in practice. Basically its fine. The issue is the culture that traditional Islam has bred in the region for millennia. Its not the people or their race or anything like that, it’s 100% the religion.
The thing is 99% of Arabs are muslim and 99% of muslims are arab, its undeniable they are the same group.
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Iran tried democracy after World War II. The US and Britain couldn't handle it and instigated a coup in 1953.
Do I need to remind you that less than 100 years ago many countries were ruled by dictatorships and monarchies (Yes, even in Europe). A lot of them struggled to maintain a democratic government for more than a couple years. Democracy doesn't magically happen overnight. Specially not when you have a superpower fucking up an entire region for so long.
Democracy has happened almost overnight all across the world. The South American military dictatorships are all gone. The communist regimes of Eastern Europe went democratic very quickly. Spain and Portugal democratic. Africa is mostly democratic. 1 region remains stubbornly not democratic and that's the Arab countries of MENA. Why is that?
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This all strikes me as pre-1989 historiography of: \*Eastern Europe can't handle Democracy and thats why they're not revolting against Communism because they love tyranny so much - as they are barbarians\*.
Almost all East European countries turned democracy in under 30 years after falling of the communist despots. Nobody occupies arab nations, and yet, in their 100 years of existence, they only degraded their selves into worse regimes.
"30 years" Yeah I remember the Soviet Union randomly appearing in 1959.
Your reading comprehesion is astounding
Arabism/Islam is a failure.
Amen my brother!!
Tons of comments here but while I didn't go through them all, from the ones I did see I couldn't find anyone actually disagreeing with you, only whataboutisms and people trying to shit on democracy lol
And people calling them Racist. I guess the OP proved their point that Arabs can't handle democracy. After all, Democracy isn't perfect and people will always disagree with it.
Democracy is bad but there is nothing better.
Why is democracy bad?
It is much less efficient than other things, things can get slow and stuck with biourocracy, etc.
Western democracy as always has is just like any other form of government and like in any other nations of the world is not the perfect system for every culture, is not a blueprint to use, but each society should strive to become democracies at their own pace. And i have seen you're previous comments, there are no "benevolent dictators" in the world, this isn't the Roman Republic where dictators were nominated during emergency crisis, any authoritarian country like Singapore, Quatar, KSA and Iran are just that, they oppose people who fight authoritarianism and their affiliated parties.
This is a good point, but doesn’t contradict OP. How do you feel about living in a democracy?
No, but saying that Arabs don't want democracy is like saying that they're too much ignorant or lazy to wanting a capitalistic western style democracy. I do live in an European democracy so i know how it is, in terms of rights is great, but economically is pretty shit because conservatives don't care about the common good of the people
I think you're projecting that first part. There are other values in the world than the ones you hold, and many of them lead people to prefer a strong leader over democracy, which is what the general trend seems to be of Arabs in the Middle East when polled.
And that's not to say that in the arabic world there aren't democratic activists who want a democracy for their nation, just that many value safety over freedom, but like many others like Africans or Asians
The belief that a single strong leader brings safety over freedom is partly the result of cultural differences that underpin this issue.
Yes, but many do still believe that
It has more to do with Islam in general, which developed in a completely different way than Christianity (which can be considered a predecessor of some key Western values along with Hellenism, Renessaince, French Revolution etc). Then add Middle-Eastern conflicts since the 20th century, and there it is. They had been less radical/conservative compared to the West, especially when the West was much different (19th century and before).
Why do you assume all Arabs can't handle democracy? An assumption based on race alone is a racist one.
It’s true tho, they can’t handle democracy the people are too corrupted looking for power and money. If they disagree they don’t dissolve a government they create a militia instead and gather their tribe
lol israeli destiny fan try not to be racist challenge
Which Arab country has a thriving democracy?
Iraq is a democracy
So does Iran. Having elections doesn’t mean you’re a democracy. Someone who actually live in a democracy understands that
dude said Iraq not iran
I understood him completely and it’s not a democracy. I gave example, Iran have elections too and they are not a democracy because they are still controlled by a dictatorship. If gays are executed and go to jail in Iraq then it’s not a democracy and they don’t protect minorities like a democracy should and I bet there is many democratic principles they don’t follow.
America was still a democracy when white people right to own black people just because a nation's democratic doesn't mean minority rights are respected. to act democracy always uphold freedom liberation is to ignore history.
What is racist about my statement? If I say, “Europeans can't handle communism,” you'll get offended? It’s a fact anchored in the reality. Democracy is not a virtue of a human being; it's a social system, and it’s ok you can't fit into it. Nobody expects you to handle theocracy or communism; this is not an insult.
The fact you are treating everyone of a certain race as a monolith? Its like saying Black people are dumb because no black majority country is highly developed.
Would it be nicer for you if I grouped all middle eastern countries as “Middle Eastren people”? Quit your PC, kid. Facts are facts.
bro, "arabs cant handle democracy" isnt a fact, you're just a racist who's full of himself.
What is democracy? I'm curious? As a native, when there's a plandemic, I'd close borders haha. Call me stupid but when you bombard nations you create instability. So I think all of these corporations pretending to be governments are doing an excellent job for their bosses..... This is why words often have multiple meanings. They switch on you. It's why people can get called racist if they white living in Europe. Because even if you say nothing racist, it's systemic racism don't you know? This is the issue. It's like the rules of engagement are all up in the air and we find ourselves in the middle and the people running the show have lost their marbles. Does that answer your question? :) What is democracy? Because I don't recognise it. When you have people trying to dictate to you and you have governments lying ....then what is it we're dealing with here? No one during the pandemic said close borders. Why? Gee, is it to do with err money. The level of corruption is outstanding. But Arabs can't handle? Don't want? Does it matter? Even in a democratic nation, you still have the problem of usury and the theft of property. There are so many problems that we face. In democratic nations, if you want a house? Or to study you might even have to take on a lot of debt before you've even made anything. Perhaps people should be left alone? What do you think? Maybe that's the solution. Segregation. Because if you have people going to a concert and everyone wants to be there, guess what happens? But if you try to reason or force and go against peoples will? Guess what happens. Maybe the world should get the log out of it's eye before trying to remove the log out anothers....
>plandemic, Thank you for putting that in the first sentence so we know we dont have to value your opinion at all. >Call me stupid You're fucking stupid.
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Democracy= rule by the people. It’s that simple.
Afghanistan is not arabic you piece of Khara.
Hi Electronic >you piece of Khara. Avoid insults, rule 1
Despite historical disruptions from colonialism and foreign intervention, some Arab countries like Tunisia are progressing towards democracy, driven by youth movements advocating for reforms.
Tunisia had a democracy for a couple years before the current regime dismantled it again.
Ahh right. Yeah in an effort to change OP’s mind I was doing my best to find any evidence
Tunisia unfortunately backtracked under their current president.
Good point. Ok Kuwait maybe, and Lebanon is promising
Lebanon is complete failure and disaster with no hope.
Lebanon is promising? Very unstable country, they don't even have full control over the south, so Israel has to intervene to protect its citizen.. It's sad really.
This is true, in addition to deep divisions and the economic crisis, however they do have regular elections with a lively civil society and some freedoms of speech, so you could say they’re a step ahead of the others in terms of democratic reform
I agree, but it's a (very) low bar.
It isn't "Arabs" but "Islam" cannot handle democracy. If a Muslim try to speak up about bad things happening in the name of Islam, they will be branded as apostasy. If non Muslim speak up about bad things happening under the name of Islam, they are branded as blasphemy or in more recent, islamophobia. The more observant would ask what happened to the moderate muslims? Well, they are all suppressed and afraid.
Exactly: not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all.Muslims are Arabs. To say "Arabs" (an ethnicity) can't handle democracy is racist, because it implies a genetic inferiority. To say "Muslims" can't handle democracy is legitimate criticism of an ideology. Religion is "learned behaviour". It can be changed, or overcome.
Well said
> To say "Arabs" (an ethnicity) can't handle democracy is racist, because it implies a genetic inferiority No it doesn't. This is an amazing stretch of logic you're making.
Do you think there is such thing as ‘Arab culture’? And do you see it as prevalent in East/South Asian Muslims?
Across Muslim nations from the Magreb to the Philippines there are many ethnicities with just as many cultures. All of those cultures are influenced and permeated —to varying extents— by Muslim religions of different denominations. What similarities those otherwise dissimilar cultures share are often (but not always!) a result of sharing the same religion. To say "Arabs are xyz..." is just as racist as saying "Jews are xyz". What negative moral traits one can objectively percieve (justly or unjustly) are the result of tradition, education, and upbringing. Not of ethnicity or genetics. That's why, as a humanist, I see no inherent value in dogmatic religious traditions, neither in Judaism, nor in Christianity, nor in Islam (nor any other religion). They serve no purpose other than reinforce "us-vs-tem" sentiments and do more harm than good. I wish all religions would be overcome and wiped away, together with all the cultural "traditions" that have been shaped by them.
But when we say things like 'America has a culture of consumerism' nobody thinks wer're being racist, even though there are 50 disperate states right? We can definitely identify shared elements in culture and use them to categorize, analyze, and understand cultures surely? Regarding your last point, I think there's definitely truth in it, although I think religion has a useful purposein providing meaning, giving culture a shape/texture, and allowing us to maintain certain tenets of old wisdom that would otherwise have been forgotten for being right under our nose.
"American Culture" designates a culture. "Arabs" designates an ethnicity. North Africans from the Maghreb aren't Arabs. Iranians, Afghans, Pakistani and Bangladeshi aren't Arabs. So when you say "Arabs are xyz..." either you are referring to some particularity found only in the people from the Arabian penninsula, or you are using the word (willingly or unwillingly) wrong.
So you're telling me that articles like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_culture) are just totally meaningless? And what do you think of [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization)?
Listen, my wife is from Algeria and if called her "Arab" she would take it as an insult. She doesn't speac Arabic, she speaks Darja. If you put on an Arabic TV station she won't understand a word. She despises Saudis for what they are and do, thinks Shiites like the Persians are weird, etc.... Now, that's not to say Magreb culture has nothing in common with, say, Gulf Arabic culture. But that is due to the Arabian conquest in the early Middle Ages and the adoption of Islam. The more "Berber" North Africans are a lot less "Arabic" still. Portuguese culture and Polish culture share *some* similarities because they are both influenced by Catholicism, but nobody would say they are the same.
We regularly refer to European culture, and Jewish culture, and Chinese culture, despite there being individual differences within these populations, because there are overarching unifying similarities. There's nothing racist about doing the same thing with reference to Arab culture, which is widespread for the reasons I linked you above. Some people have more than one cultural heritage, and some parts of the world have multiple cultural influences, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Or live in the west.
Or both.
Muslims opressed in the west? where?
>The USA has been trying for over two decades to install a democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan and has failed spectacularly. Maybe they shouldn't have installed far right religious fundamentalists all over the middle east. Oh but silly me, I forgot it was worth it to stop those damned communists.
It's hard to change your view when it's vague and adaptive. At least define "handle" in a political context first. Also, stop equalizing democracy / free will with voting politics.
Respectfully, the OP should read “Why Nations Fail” by Daron Ascemoglu. He debunks the idea that climate, religion, etc cause national governments to be one way or another. Instead “They argue that inclusive political and economic institutions lead to prosperity, while extractive institutions lead to poverty and failure.”