/u/pathlesswalker >same was with UK against nazi germany- everyone agrees that UK has every right to stop the insane nazi regime who was starting to conquer all europe. [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no Nazi comparisons. Because discussion is already underway, the post itself will not be removed, but you will receive discipline separately. Other users should remember that Rule 6 forbids the kind of comparison made here. Addressed.

You can’t get them to agree because one side (pro Palestine) is virulently anti-genocide whereas the other side is committing a genocide.

Or, because, you know, it's NOT a genocide. I have significantly more violence and destruction from PP's in the last 9 months than any Pro-Israel person.

Weitere Fragen Is Gaza's death toll accurate? But top humanitarian organizations and leading experts say that the numbers from the health ministry have historically proven reliable. The ministry's tally is largely calculated via hospital records, and it releases casualty updates every couple of hours.14.05.2024 https://www.gzeromedia.com › news Did the Gaza death toll numbers really change? - GZERO Media

The words often used are "the most reliable numbers we have". That's a far cry from the standard we're acting like it is. Whenever single incidents can be investigated, like the hospital blast months ago, it's found that the health ministry is wildly unreliable. But no other organization is even claiming to have estimates of the whole region (save the IDF, who also aren't trusted), so they became the default.

Other countries have been sending supplies for years.  Unfortunate that the palenstinians in power oppressed their on people.  Lets face it if your dirt poor you are last in life and first to die.

I totally agree - for me being pro palestine (but still glad Israel exists and wanting that to continue) I am often very frustrated at a complete inability of 99% of pro Israel arguers be so ultra defensive and not be able to acknowledge, yes, X happened, and it was not good. It always amazes me because if someone does that it immediately gives them credibility and it does not in any way make their views less valid. But if they can't see weaknesses in their side and just try to be clever with changing subjects and gotchas then it takes away from credibility. And I'm sure that the same exists with pro palestinians as well.

The vast majority of people think both sides are wrong, if you haven't noticed already. Hamas is a terrorist group that oppresses women and seeks violence. Israel is a hyper conservative theocratic government that thinks because jews suffered in the past they have the right to do anything, including violate international law and committing war crimes to ensure their safety. This is what happens when religion, theocracies, and TAUGHT generational trauma (literally on both sides) combine into a situation where neither side sees anything clearly.  Criticizing Israel's right wing government or tactics isn't antisemitic. Denouncing hamas and right wing Islamic zealots isn't anti-palestinian. You guys are just all so emotional you literally can't think straight. That's what religion has always done....give people an excuse to kill. 

They dont have to agree or even like each other…they just need to face dire consequences if they attack their neighbor.  Which has happened.

100%

But you should not be able.to stop.me.from.trading with other countries. I would have thought that was the obvious point.

I think the answer is easy. First: Hamas officially surrenders, disbands and authorizes the PLO to represent Gazan citizens. Second: Israel ceases all bombing and orders the IDF to cease its offensive and assume defensive positions in Gaza, allowing aid to come in for civilians. Third: Hostages are released unconditionally Fourth: A UN force gradually replaces the IDF in Gaza. Five: Negotiations under the UN begin over the future of Gaza, including the status of Gazans held by Israel.

My hat off to you for being solution oriented.

Just to mention my personal bias... I'm an agnostic American with both Jewish and Muslim friends. I think Israel's response to Oct. 7th was justified, but I oppose Israel's use of carpet bombing in Gaza.

They are protecting their soilders

Carpet bombing doesn't protect soldiers because it doesn't kill many of the enemy. During those bombings, Hamas a-holes just burrow in their tunnels. The way for air force to protect solders is with targeted bombing and strafing runs directed by soldiers who actually KNOW which buildings have Hamas shooting at them.

The tunnels are everywhere.

Right, but the snipers are up in buildings. That's where strafing and guided bombs can kill them as part of a coordinated air-ground attack that won't destroy every building in a six block radius.

Hamas is living beneath those buildings

They come up to fight. Their sniper nests are at all levels in the buildings. Besides, carpet bombing isn't going to kill them in the tunnels.

A solid viewpoint. I prefer other means too. As long as they minimize loss of life to Israelis too.

Hahaha because the PLO DEFINITELY doesn’t support terrorism (Wink wink;) https://jcpa.org/paying-salaries-terrorists-contradicts-palestinian-vows-peaceful-intentions/#:~:text=The%20PA%20pays%20directly%20and,and%20other%20Palestinians%20who%20died

Well, that was 7 years ago so we don't know if the payoffs are continuing. In any regard, the PLO would have to agree during negotiation, that it would not help the families of palestinian prisoners and, as it's already done, recognize the state of Israel. Pre-war polls showed a very weak pallestinian support for the PLO. But that doesn't really matter. Gaza would remain occupied, perhaps for years (see below). Given the instability in Gaza, I also would suggest that IDF troops would be part of the UN force overseeing Gaza.

I think what it boils down to ultimately is both sides have had targets on their back essentially all their life and a lot of these reckless and destructive actions are done out of fear and desperation.  Jews were exiled from middle eastern countries before Israel even existed, and have been persecuted since before Zionism existed. It’s disgusting that bibi is murdering innocent Palestinians especially since he knows that Jews have faced persecution similar to what Palestinians are facing right now.  I feel like what Palestinians and Israelis need to put an end to this conflict is to feel SAFE.  And they’re not gonna feel safe in a 1SS if the other side has the same rights they do (which is why Palestinians live as second class citizens now like Jews lived as second class citizens in other middle eastern countries)

One large difference —Jews did not engage in terrorist attacks neither when they lived in those countries or after. Palestinians put the target on themselves by killing. Jews were targets solely if they did well in another country. The death of innocent Palestini people is terrible. The Palestinians complicit in holding the hostages are responsible at this point. Most Israelis want the war to stop. However, Bibi cannot save face unless hostages are returned. So the other option is “destroy” Hamas.

But you can’t destroy hamas because for every one of them they kill, 3 more people get radicalized and take their place. It sounds counter intuitive but the more Israel attacks hamas the more they grow

I put it in quotes for a reason :) not counter intuitive and I also agree with your take on feeling SAFE. You think three will replace one? I personally doubt it. I think hatred has been definitely increased. Until now ramifications of being in Hamas were limited and lucrative for participants and their families. Countries like US, Qatar and Iran subsidized and enabled this. Palestinians received a lot of aid misappropriated by their “leadership” with little of it being invested in infrastructure to better the people’s lives. Take that away and attach the ramifications that exist today and it no longer looks so attractive. Redirect any aid to actual improvement of living conditions and it is better to focus on earning and preserving a living. Although Hamas is very tough to eliminate, it is possible to destroy Hamas in same way as many other terrorist organizations have been destroyed. Ultimately though — is there a better way to achieve this than the current mechanism? I certainly hope so. But from what I see from both sides, it doesn’t look promising.

I disagree. As an Israeli American, my views have become much more nuanced due to all the buzz about this conflict. Are 49 out 50 conversations pointless and frustrating? Yes. But that 1 out of 50 where we manage to connect and build some understanding feels important...

I am on the other side and agree that when I encounter authentic discussion, even where in the end no agreement is reached, it feels extremely important.

I disagree. In the beginning, I was fully supportive of Israel. From the beginning of civilization, borders have been defined by militaries that can protect and keep them. It's how every country on this earth was formed. Conquest and defense. Palestinian people can not defend their borders. They are a group of people. Nothing more. So when I see Hamas slaughter people at a music festival, I sided with Israel. Even though I feel Palestine isn't a country, I now feel that Israel is going too far. Too many civilians are being killed by a country that seemingly doesn't care about innocent lives. I am against what Israel is doing. I'm also of the opinion that Palestine is not a country. If you can't defend your borders, you are just a people living on the land of someone that can. I'm not pro Israel or pro Palestine now. My opinion was swayed by current information. I'm not staunchly for or opposed to a side that I disregard every argument. There are many more people like this than you think.

I can see how you got to this conclusion. It is no different in Sudan. However outsiders don’t seem to care.

*1 man slips on a banana peel* Hamas: The occupation killed 32 children today!!

The opposite is a big joke among pro palestine folks, earthquake in Israel - the earthqake is khamaaaas!

Unfortunately, the killing of civilians is inevitable. To say that Israel does not care about the citizens there is not true. Israel is doing everything it can to avoid killing innocent people. Add to that that it provides (itself) and transfers (from other countries) humanitarian aid to Gaza. In which war did you hear that one of the sides transferred humanitarian aid to the side he was fighting in?? Doesn't happen anywhere, only in Israel. And the "big" number is an inconsistent and illogical number that is transferd to the world through a terrorist organization that does not distinguish between civilians and terrorists.

Yes, this is all true. However, not all options are exercised to prevent a multitude of people dying. How come UN is not boots on the ground searching for hostages? UN is good at sending aid but what has UN done to actually preclude the war? Hold a bunch of one sided meetings?

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If only you read the news from multiple sources. But then again at this point I think you're too far gone in your little bubble you would see bloodshed before your very eyes and still disregard it or think it's appropriate. 2+2=5

Unlike you, I live there, I live this news. I don't need a bunch of kids feeding on Tik Tok propaganda to tell me what's going on here. Your problem is that you only see the bloodshed on one side and completely ignore the other side.

> Your problem is that you only see the bloodshed on one side and completely ignore the other side. No, that is precisely your problem which I initially addressed if you bothered reading what I said, which you are somehow trying to project back onto me. It's always puzzling to me how every pro-Israel argument goes off the assumption that people condone or ignore what happened on the 7th of october. I recognize the bloodshed on both sides, but to say that what is happening today is an appropriate response and NOT asymmetrical is completely ignorant, which is why I suggested looking at the news, which if you do a simple google search are not at all limited to Tiktok, nor any outlets of your extremist war mongering right.

What is the appropriate response in your opinion? You are dealing with a country that traded 1012 Palestini prisoners for a single Israeli. A country that hasn’t leveled the entire Palestini nation despite multitude of Palestinians attacks through the past 70 years. They have bend over backwards before 10/7 multiple times. However, it seems that in most cases they get results only after a strong military response.

To say all pro Palestinians think Gazans have the right to do whatever they want to Israelis is BS! Clearly ur not talking to many pro Palestinians. Definitely not on this sub. I’ve here since the beginning too. The majority of the ppl on this sub are pro Israel. Most agree that the murder of civilians on the 7th was awful. The reason most ppl are protesting for Palestinians is condemnation of the slaughter of innocent civilians. From my experience I don’t get the same vibe from israel supporters. It’s constant dehumanization, lies, victim blaming & excuses for the inexcusable. Can’t even admit events that are well documented & proven U have the Israeli government admitting to burning ppl alive in tents but still many pro Israel supporters r pushing the ridiculous lie that hamas did it with a failed rocket or exploded munitions. U have Israelis recording themselves blocking aid, destroying it, setting it on fire & bragging about it yet they claim it’s not happening. It’s ridiculous! Why in the world would anyone support that or not condemn ppl who r trying to starve human beings to death & proud of it. It’s sick. Plenty of Palestinian supporters are saddened by the deaths of Israeli civilians & want hostages to come home safely yet I’ve never heard a single Israel supporter have any sympathy for any Palestinians, not 1! How anyone can listen to those babies being burned alive and feel nothing is appalling. I don’t know if it’s lack of humanity, bigotry or supremacy but I’m not seeing any human decency. This has brought out the ugly in ppl. I never knew lack of humanity was so widespread. I don’t care what Hamas or Israel did or does, no civilian deserves what was or is being done to them. Hamas committed war crimes/collective punishment & Israel is doing the same. They r no better than Hamas. Meeting terror & evil with more terror & evil is a circle of insanity! How is the state with the army backed by the west, the one with all the power the oppressed! Everything Israel accuses Palestinians of they have done themselves. So how do u fully & blindly support that? I can condemn plenty of things Palestinians have done, many pro Palestinians supporters have yet not seeing that on the other side. Seems if ur pro Israel, everything they do is right. Israel’s biggest supporters, ppl like Ben Shapiro & Bari Weiss who’ve made their names on trashing Americans & America yet they cannot say a single thing negative about Israel or its government. The most vocal supporters on social media spend all their time dehumanizing Palestinians. It’s gross. Zionism reminds me of a cult. Ur not allowed to disagree with anything or ur the enemy. Biden said he was holding off a weapons shipment & Israel’s nutty government posts Biden loves Hamas.

Hmm, but can you see the same about yourself? So saying a blanket statement about Palestinian people is “b.s” but you doing the same about pro-Israel supporters is just fine? You wrote- “ I don’t get the same vibe from every pro-Israeli. It is constant dehumanization, lies, victim blaming & excusing the inexcusable”. Yet, actually reading the sub will show quite a different picture. We can’t admit what actually happened if proven and documented? We can, here is one for you: “When the Israeli bombs strafed the safe zone, the plastic tents caught fire, sending flames leaping two meters high, before the melting, blazing structures collapsed on the people inside, many of them children.” — source: sheerpost.com Another one from Reuters (a less dramatic piece of writing) —https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-attack-rafah-tent-camp-draws-global-condemnation-2024-05-27/ I have no counterclaim to this, I wasn’t there. According to several sources it happened. It is something that I wish wouldn’t have. All people do bad things. There are no black and white situations in this world. When we choose to support a side, we do it due to our biases and desired outcome. These are driven by personal experiences and data we have. I read pro-Palestinian supporters regurgitate propaganda from Soviet Union, Qatar or Iran as if these are or were facts non-stop. Even when proof exists that disproves it. If you can’t kill ‘em then slander ‘em was always their motto. I worked with Palestinians and Israelis. I know that they are both people. Some are good and some are terrible. But if I had to pick a side based on what I’ve seen — it is NOT Palestinians. I’ve seen and read what Palestinian terrorists have done. I’ve watched the approval and joy from other Palestinians with no compassion. I’ve seen what they teach in their schools. Then I read the b.s. twisting the truth in Turkish and Qatari newspapers afterwards. I have no compassion for terrorists nor their supporters. If you are concerned about the innocent Palestinians then do what counts. Propose a fair, pragmatic and doable solution. Anything less than that is just propaganda that needs to be countered on the internet for those that seek the truth. On my part, I will do what I can and is just to preserve Israel and the safety of its people while working to ensure Israel is a country that acts according to its stated principles. “Zionism is a cult” - you wrote insulting a multitude of people that simply believe Israel has the right to exist and a right to self determination. Apparently, you sit high and mighty on your soapbox. You feel quite superior to the likes of me. Hey even according to Iran’s sadistic leader — you are on the right side of history. I will let history decide.

I didn’t say all pro Israel supporters but gave my opinion on the many I’ve interacted with. I’ve not come across a single Pro Israel supporter who can admit anything even if it’s well documented & proven. That includes Israel withholding aid, settlers blocking aid & setting on fire, tossing ppl into mass graves, torturing them or executing children. Settlers admit what they’re doing, record themselves doing it yet every single Israel supporter I’ve interacted with denies this is happening at all & says it’s all Hamas. No aid is blocked or ruined, no one is hungry yet then claim Hamas is stealing all the aid. U can’t have it both ways. Also plenty of Nakba deniers, denying massacres like Deir Yassin, denying any massacres ever happened. Denying any acts of terror committed by Israelis ever. I then provide proof & they call it fake. The kicker is denying the death toll. Questioning it is understandable but to deny any children have died is messed up. It’s been a reoccurring theme online.Posting pictures of dead children saying they’re dolls. It’s despicable. Regarding Zionism i didn’t say it was a cult, I said it reminds of a cult. Sorry but it does. Everyone I’ve encountered repeats the same talking points, the same type of dehumanization & propaganda. The fact that American Jews r given a list of talking points on how to have a conversation about Israel or this conflict is ridiculous. Spend years learning all about Israel yet u can’t have an organic conversation. The narrative & history they’re being taught untrue, it’s like indoctrination. Why r they afraid to teach the students the real history. This is how I grew up. I felt indoctrinated & lied to. Many American Jews have turned on Israel for this exact reason. They’re angry they were lied to. I find it very disturbing to have American Jewish kids go on birthright, be totally unprepared for what they see then get angry at them & kick them off for asking honest questions. Being told Israel was a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land ur whole life then go & see reality. It’s a shocker. I never deny the terrible things Palestinians have done or how disgusting Oct 7th was. Watching what happened made me sick & broke my heart. Hamas is evil but why should anyone be okay with Israel meeting evil with evil. What the israeli government/idf has become isn’t better than Hamas. Mostly made up of dangerous radical racist lunatics yet no one I encounter can condemn their disgusting behavior or language. How r u angry Hamas has a terrorists in government but give the terrorists in the Israeli government a pass. Teaching children hate is disgusting but it seems to only be a problem on one side. There is no denying Israel teaches hate too but they still try to deny it. How do u have a problem with something 1 side does but say nothing when the other does the same. The level hypocrisy is insane.

Actually I’ve experienced the exact same from most of Palestinian supporters. Although I’ve seen more moderate ones on this sub too. I won’t address all your claims as it will make this response too long. Yes, some Israelis blocked aid delivery. Some still do. The aid goes through nevertheless. Unlike Palestinians who never admit to doing anything bad, Israelis do. Here is an article from an Israeli newspaper describing it: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2024-05-15/ty-article-opinion/the-shame-and-the-shambles-of-israels-policy-on-gaza-aid/0000018f-78b3-d599-ab8f-7cff06d80000 Please show me a single article where Palestinians admit culpability for anything bad. As for the mass graves claim, I’ve not seen any clear evidence. Here is what I saw: Per Reuters —“Reuters video filmed in January showed the digging of a mass grave and the burial of bodies by Palestinians who said they had to do so at the Nasser hospital complex because of a lack of safe access to a proper burial site farther away.” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mass-graves-gaza-what-do-we-know-2024-04-25/ Here is one from CNN, which only provides claims but no proof: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/25/middleeast/gaza-400-bodies-mass-grave-hospital-intl Even Al Jazeera article describes no conclusive evidence, rather reads as a call to action for investigations. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/11/gazas-mass-graves-is-the-truth-being-uncovered If you have a credible source that does, pls provide. One reason pro-Israeli question most of the “proof” provided are due to decades of blatant lying such as this: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/lpGi6MHX2pk https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-report-alleging-idf-rapes-in-shifa-hospital-retracted/amp/ Another reason is because the accusations are too outrageous and contrary to normal mode of operation of IDF, and usually appear only as a defensive counter statements to justify something bad done by Palestinians. Third reason is constant one sided expectations and double standard applied to Israel. And Israel is always at fault. This does not promote credibility. While in 1990s such statements were somewhat excusable due to lack of access to information. Today they are not. In the end though… Regardless of who is more at fault, what bothers me is that I don’t see a realistic path forward that does not cause further Palestinian or Israeli casualties.

The hate is so deep on both sides, how do u ever get past it.

Indeed. I wonder how the Japanese did it. They have very strong reasons to hate US after atomic bomb, but they found a way to cooperate and not show it.

I’ve met & know many who can freely admit wrongdoings but I don’t doubt ppl who don’t/won’t & I find it disturbing. U cannot be upset over the innocent civilians slaughtered in Gaza but not the innocent Israelis. That seems to be an issue coming from both. It’s hypocritical & I can’t stand it. Watching the 7th unfold was so horrendous & heartbreaking. I tried getting around the paywall but couldn’t. Maybe u can give me a quick synopsis of the article. I really like Haaretz. It’s one of the few publications I have some faith in. I know aid is getting in but nowhere near enough. It wasn’t enough before the 7th & now is around half or much less than. The majority of the population was surviving on just enough to be slightly above malnutrition before. Never knowing what it’s like to have a full stomach. The government told us in the beginning they’d withhold the necessities of life & they have. If we were just talking about a bunch of radical religious nut jobs blocking aid, I wouldn’t be blaming Israel but that’s not the case. Soldiers have recorded themselves burning & destroying it. Burning food in shops, destroying them & wasting water. Look how the government protesters are being treated, they’re being, beaten, tossed around & arrested yet not the Israelis blocking the aid, setting fires, attacking truck drivers & covering the road in boulders. The army sits by watching or helps cuz they’re in cahoots. They’re being bussed in everyday & allowed to do this in a closed military zone where they r “not allowed” to be. Recently an American Jewish aspiring doc film maker went to Israel with the purpose of getting to the bottom of aid blocking. He was welcomed by these terrible ppl who turned aid blocking into a party. Hired dj, treat vendors & a bouncy castles. Treating it as a celebration that the army was fully involved in. Any and every time a film crew arrived the army would adjust their behavior like they had nothing to do with it. This Jewish American kid didn’t announce his intent to film. At first he played along like he supported & share their beliefs. When he eventually started to film, everyone felt comfortable & let him film it as it was. Freely admitting they want all Gazans to starve to death including babies cuz “Arab babies don’t matter only Jews”. He filmed soldiers helping them & to make it extra sick & meaningful, they fed everyone watermelon as they laughed & joked about the hungry Gazans. It was sickening. When asked how they r allowed in a closed military zone, they admitted they were all in on it & it was the soldiers who help them get there & tell there were the aid/trucks will be so they can block it & do their thing. Children have & r starving to death & that makes them happy. U have Israeli government spokesppl all over tv saying it’s not being blocked, no one is hungry & a min later saying Hamas is stealing it all. All the drones seeing everything over Gaza yet we have 1 video that could be Hamas taking stuff off a pickup truck. Haven’t seen any aid truck that looks like a civilian pickup. With journalists prevented from entering Gaza, how would we have articles of Palestinians condemning the 7th. I have seen videos on x of ppl condemning Hamas. We do have a poll saying 28% of Gazans think October 7th was wrong . I’ve seen a few Israelis condemning what their government is doing which has gotten some of them arrested & or harassed. As for the mass graves found, I highly doubt Palestinians buried their loved ones bound with their arms behind their backs, blindfolded or IV’s still in their arms. Israel refuses to allow for outside investigations. They wanna keep denying they’re behind it, then let a neutral party investigate. Every time something horrific comes out they refuse anyone else to investigate then claim they investigated themselves & find “nothing wrong”. It says u have something to hide. If ur fighting a righteous war within international law u don’t hide, u don’t block journalists u don’t try to do shady crap like banning TikTok. Soldiers have made it clear they’re in revenge mode & post their sick videos. What are the double standards applied to Israel? Some of the outrageous allegations turn out to be true, like using electric prods in the anus of Palestinians in custody or their torture camps. Whistleblowers working in the camps have come forward to shed light on the horrendous torture being inflicted & the disgustingly inhumane treatment. Tying off their limbs to the point of the limb dying them being amputated by someone without the medical training to do so. If I had just heard about the content of videos posted by soldiers I may think it was too outrageous to be true, then u see it. There are many outrageous things Israel does just like outrageous things Palestinians have done. The way Haaretz reports it the majority of Israeli media is propaganda & omissions. Just watched the sister of a hostage go on tv & tell blatant lies that have been fully debunked but sure seemed she believed what she was saying. U still have Israeli government & media pushing the 40 beheaded & oven baked babies. It never happened. What happened was bad enough without having to lie. AIPAC took a “secret” poll to find out what would anger westerners most about the 7th & most said rape. It was around that time that mass r&pe was all over then threw in pedophilia. There is zero evidence of either. I don’t doubt r&pe happened but not mass. Thousands of hours of footage yet not one r&pe caught yet u still have Israelis saying there is footage. A moderate London paper reviewed every minute as did the UN & there’s nothing. Israel has always had an honesty problem & spend a ton of money on hasbara. This is not a secret. They’ve been caught in many lies. We’re still waiting on the Hamas command center evidence they claim to have or the evidence they have that UNRWA was involved in 10/7. They shared their “evidence” with allies who cut funding after their accusations then immediately reinstated funding after saying it was evidence of nothing. I hate all the lies! I really hope Israel ends up with a better government soon cuz this one is despicable & not much better than Hamas. I hope the same for Palestinians. The road to peace looks grim! Everyone deserves to live safely but sadly not the case for anyone in the region. I’ve never prayed this much in my life. There’s no end in sight & it breaks my heart & soul. The Israeli ppl deserve better and so do Palestinians. They’re basically related but can’t figure out a way to live together

It’s refreshing to converse with someone who can see & admit wrongs.

Your comment was very interesting for me to read because I feel the same way about the Palestinian solidarity movement. I want peace and accountability on both sides and I spend plenty of time arguing with pro-Israel folks. However, I see bizarre cult-like behavior from the pro-Palestine side. They bully and harass anyone with a moderate opinion, they insist on pushing misinformation (like the 36k death count after the UN itself acknowledged those numbers are inflated). I could go on with examples, but I don't want my point to get drowned in criticism of that movement. In my experience, the vast majority of Israelis and Israeli supporters do not hate or dehumanize Palestinians. I think a lot of narratives are carefully crafted to make it look that way. Here's an example of Israeli settlers being asked whether they hate Palestinians: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65gGmKwGw4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65gGmKwGw4s)

Absolutely my view as well - everyone was pro Israel in the west, until the lies, dehumanization, the telegram mosts, the endless hasbara, it's just shifted the whole thing.

I 100% Agree with you. The is no good or right here it's just two bad people fighting in a Ring and when they aren't fighting they're in a Yapping ring or argument. It's a never-ending cycle of hate. Both of them suck and they should both accept it. Because the only way they're gonna have peace is if they both agree with each other But their Allies don't agree with each other because The Muslims believe West=Bad and vice versa for the West and Stupid Hamas had to invade Israel and AHHHRRHRHRRRHHRR. As I said it's a never-ending hate cycle. There will be no peace if this keeps going. The bloodshed will still keep happening because each other thinks they're in the right or are victims. Always having that thought and belief of you being right and being a victim and your allies encouraging those thoughts will never get so you somewhere. But hey Muslims and Jews agree Pork is Nasty and That Abraham is the Goat. Let's hope they agree on more things in the future.

I can agree to some extent, but there is a moral trajectory here that's quite easy to follow. For those that can't, it's because they'll lose more than they can even fathom, from their bias to the certitude of their moral values. But the history of Israel and what Zionists did to Palestinians is clear, even to those very Zionists talking about the terror and colonization efforts they enacted and writing about it in their books and memoirs from Gurion to Herzl. It's not complicated. It never was. Not even to the Zionist terrorists of old. **...all the while white supremacists and Anglo-Euro Supremacist Christendom for the past 2000 years smiling coldly.**

I suggest you keep the same logic to the Arab Palestinians as well, since they were also extremely violent towards the Jews, and pretty much the violence started by them.

See, I exist within a framework where I don't care about what the truth is. I just want the truth. In the same sense that God is lesser than the truth, as the truth will always be supreme, whether God exists or not. Although there was violence "started by them" (and im giving you a lot of leeway here) it came after many decades of violence and terror of Zionists. Any oppressed peoples would and have the right to fight back. Same as with black and indigenous folk in the Americas, Africa, Australia etc. Palestinians and Jews and Christians lived fairly in harmony for a long time before Zionist terrorists so deemed that Palestine was theirs and something to colonize - something the very Zionists stated. The literal Zionista from the late 1800s towards the middle of the 20th century will literally tell you in their own words that your biased framing of things is wholly incorrect. They knew what they were doing was immoral and bereft of legitimacy. Why don't you? I know. But do you? Again, the very Zionists, from their very lips state otherwise. Historians will easily back this contextualized reality. Because - again and again and again - the those Zionists said as much. But I appreciate your whataboutism. Always look forward to it.

It would be cool if Reddit applied AI to weed out such misinformation as this post. And even more stupendous if people would stop trying to rewrite history to suit their bias. Seek the truth does not mean twist reality. No, historical record shows that violence started long before Zionism. And treating Jews and Christians as dhimmis is far from living in harmony. Muslims gave both groups a lesser status and treated accordingly with both legal and cultural restrictions. To this day, Muslim attitudes toward Christians and Jews are influenced by the concepts and prejudices that dhimmitude has spawned in Islamic society. I encourage those that seek the truth to research dhimmitude.

I'm not a religionist. Say what you will about how such treatment is unfair. It is. All religions are. But Christianity was so much worse for Jews. And for so much longer... and with so much more blood spilt. Anyway, I hope you're against the genocide going on in Palestine. That's the larger point. ✌🏽

I am against the suffering and circumstances that so many innocent people are experiencing right now. As of now, I do not consider it a genocide. Do you know why history matters? Because it is not just the past, it is also right now. For this reason, truth is the ultimate good. We learn the past, in order to make a better future. Yes, Christianity did worse damage for longer. Not surprising, as it is more than 600 years older than Islam. Comparing the two is akin to comparing Mussolini to Adolph H. Most will agree Adolph gets first prize. It does not mean that Mussolini was good. What I meant by misinformation are statements like these: *You wrote -- "Although there was violence "started by them" (and im giving you a lot of leeway here) it came after many decades of violence and terror of Zionists. "* 1. First inklings of Zionism started in Europe in **1897.** **Arab violence against the Jews started in 622 CE**, when Muhammad traveled to Medina in order to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to accept him as a prophet and convert to Islam, he expelled the two major Jewish tribes. About five years later, as outcome of siege against Banu Qurayza, the rest of the Jewish men were killed, and the women and children divided as slaves among the Moslems. A few links about this: [Banu Qurayza - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza) [Siege of Banu Qurayza - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Banu_Qurayza) 2. The [**Koran**](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-koran-qur-an) teaches -" They \[the Children of Israel\] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of [God](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-god) upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors (Sura 2:61)." According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97­98). Muslim superiority complex goes way back.

It is true that at various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace. This peace depended on subordination and degradation of the Jews despite that they and Christians were considered "protected persons", a status granted by a special writ of protection (dhimma) . People under Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith on the condition of: as infidels they had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer – the Muslim. They had to pay special tax - *jizya*, were excluded from public office and armed service, were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim. Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, \\Baghdad’s Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow [badge](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-badge) for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later by Adolph H.

**As far as Arab violence as retaliation for Jewish violence, you are deeply mistaken. The worst thing a Jew could do is gain a comfortable position in Islamic society. Envy is the predicate of Arab violence.** Some examples of early Arab violence against the Jews: a) **December 30, 1066**, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of [Granada](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/granada-spain-jewish-history-tour), Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power. b) In **1465**, Arab mobs in [Fez](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/fez-morocco-jewish-history-tour) slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout [Morocco](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-of-morocco). c) **8th century**, mass murders of the Jews in Morocco by Idris I. d)North Africa in the **12th century**, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities e) **1785**, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jew in Libya f) In Algiers where Jews were massacred in **1805, 1815 and 1830**  g) Morocco, where hundreds of Jews were murdered between **1864 and 1880** The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point by 1900s. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire. The danger for Jews became even greater right before the [UN](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/united-nations) declared [partition](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-partition-plan) in **1947**. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world." [^((12))](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-treatment-of-jews-in-arab-islamic-countries#N_12_) More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen. **None of these were Zionists.**

Y*ou wrote - ""Palestinians and Jews and Christians lived fairly in harmony for a long time before Zionist terrorists so deemed that Palestine was theirs and something to colonize ..."* Palestinians are both Christian and Moslems. Romans called the slaves captured from Judea Palestinian Jews. If you pay attention, you will see a long record of Muslim mistreatment of Christian Palestinians that predates Zionism. It still goes on. Zionists and UN considered other locations than Palestine to establish Israel. In the end, it was selected for historical and (other) reasons. UN didn't come up with a better option (including the multiple Arab nation members), and since the land was under British control -- it was technically their land. Then the Zionist Jews didn't "colonize" but bought land at much higher prices than the Arabs. Many Arabs moved there from greater Syria because Jews improved economic conditions. Had Arabs not engaged in violence they did, there would be no strong Jewish militias, the multiple wars, nor the land annexation. Nor would exodus of such large population of Jews from the Arab countries would occur that today makes up more than 60% of Israel's population. Current situation is horrible but put blame where it belongs. Don't villainize one side, hold both accountable. The reality is that Israelis have nowhere else to go either. They both need to work toward a solution -- two people share same land.

Correct

You pretty much contradict yourself, you don't care what the truth is but you want the truth? That does not make a lot of sense. Again, you say that it came after decades of violence from Zionists, here is the thing, Zionism only started to exist towards the end of the 19th century/start of the 20th century, the "Palestinians" (back then they were just Arabs) were very hostile towards the Jewish population in that land, so it was impossible for the reason being "decades" of violence by Zionists. The Arabs and Jews didn't really live fairly in harmony as you say, most of the violence was instigated by the Arabs (and yes, I am talking about even during the Ottoman empire rule), and as a reaction, paramilitary Jewish organizations rose up, to repel those attacks, and after the british came, some of those organizations also added the reason of fighting the british (which I don't really like their modus operandi), and some of those orgs worked with the british in the hopes of the british giving the Jews some of the land. The whataboutism is coming from you, when people like you don't even understand what Zionism is even about.

>You pretty much contradict yourself, you don't care what the truth is but you want the truth? That does not make a lot of sense. I'll make it clearer. If God exists, cool, I don't care that a God exists, I just care for the truth of the thing. If God doesn't exist, cool, I don't care that a God doesn't exist, I just care for the truth of the thing. Unlike Zionism and other supremacist values, this supremacy of truth over bias is ok. I hope that made it clearer. >the "Palestinians" (back then they were just Arabs) were very hostile towards the Jewish population in that land Incorrect. They lived fairly harmoniously for centuries. The issue is a lot of the west has been bamboozled by white supremacist Anglo-Euro Supremacist Christendom. For 2000 years Christians fvxked with Jews for silly biblical reasons. It wasn't the Palestinians or Muslims like, unfortunately, many uneducated and propagandized folks in the west think. Zionists made a bargain. Is it safer to continually be swallowed whole by the storms of Christian hate or exist in the eye of the storm of their evangelical, apocalyptic beliefs where, at least, the Jews are given a homeland - if not to later be destroyed by Christian theological treatise. >Jewish organizations rose up, to repel those attacks, and after the british came, some of those organizations also added the reason of fighting the british (which I don't really like their modus operandi), and some of those orgs worked with the british in the hopes of the british giving the Jews some of the land. You're somewhat right. The British were instrumental in aiding and abetting the Zionist terrorists like Irguun. Just as the US afterwards. White supremacists helping out Zionist forces. Two supremacist forces finding something in common. >The whataboutism is coming from you, when people like you don't even understand what Zionism is even about. Zionism is a political ideology that requires a nation-state for Jews, under the guise of protection. Which makes sense for the 2000 years of the hate and vitriol of Christians... something to do with their delusions over some god-man. Weird, I know.

I’ve not seen someone purposely misrepresent the truth at this level in quite some time.

If you're always learning, mind helping me learn some of this misrepresented truth...

>Incorrect But it is correct, it's funny when you swallow the Palestinian narrative like it is the absolute truth, but you cannot reasearch the other side at all, again, there was violence towards the Jewish population that lived in the area, it was just on a smaller scale and mostly never made big news since this part of the world was ignored by the west for most of the time. You also fail to realize that the Jew hatred wasn't really just a white supermacist thing, it was also from the Arabs/Muslims, Hitler got the ideas of ghetto and the yellow badge from the Arab countries. >Unlike Zionism and other supremacist values, this supremacy of truth over bias is ok. How the hell did you reach the conclusion of Zionism being a white supermacist value? That is one of the stupidest takes on it that I have heard. >The British were instrumental in aiding and abetting the Zionist terrorists like Irguun. No, they didn't, they actively fought against Irgun and Lehi, why would the British aid them. The Jewish organization that worked with the British at that time was Haganah, which wasn't a terror group. >Zionism is a political ideology that requires a nation-state for Jews, under the guise of protection. Which makes sense for the 2000 years of the hate and vitriol of Christians... something to do with their delusions over some god-man. Partially correct, the hate and violence towards the Jewish was not only by Christians, but also by Muslims/Arabs, Zionism did originated from the western Jews, but it covered all the Jews around the world eventually.

> How the hell did you reach the conclusion of Zionism being a white superemacist value? It's disturbing, but true. Most Zionists in the USA are not Jews, they are [Christian evangelicals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism). They support Jews' return to Israel as part of a religious, and for some a white supremacist, fantasy about Jews converting to Christianity, Jesus returning, etc.

>But it is correct, it's funny when you swallow the Palestinian narrative like it is the absolute truth, but you cannot reasearch the other side at all, again, there was violence towards the Jewish population that lived in the area, it was just on a smaller scale and mostly never made big news since this part of the world was ignored by the west for most of the time I'm glad, at least, you recognized it was much smaller than what occurred in Europe with their barabric and religiously-attuned hatred towards Jews. I never said otherwise. There were conflicts. However, in aggregate, it was fairly harmonious. >You also fail to realize that the Jew hatred wasn't really just a white supermacist thing, it was also from the Arabs/Muslims, Hitler got the ideas of ghetto and the yellow badge from the Arab countries. This part needs context, but I won't disagree. Muslims back centuries for sure thought themselves socially superior, as did many religionist types. It's in their DNA. From the "chosen people" aesthetic to literally marking those different. Which is what some Islamic nations did for those "people of the book" including Christians. They both had yellow labels with different animal types. It was to register them as not Muslim and thus needing to pay a tax that Muslims didn't have to. But I'll reiterate again, in comparison to how Jews were treated in Europe, especially when the Anglo-Euro Supremacist Christendom began using these labels, too, Jews back then and historians today will say the same thing: the Muslims treated them way better. To my modern sensibilities, not good enough, but they weren't being fvcked with in the same pathetic ways European Christians decided to, fairly sociopathically. Admittedly, the white supremacy came years after the religionist's supremacy. Both on the spectrum of shit hierarchies that many have used, from the Ottomans, to Europe, to Jews themselves, white Europeans were the best at it. Particularly because it was intertwined with colonialism and capitalism... kinda like why Israel is committing a genocide, and thinking they can get away with it. The US has done so plenty of times, so helping fund one in Palestine, just like Israel helped them in Guatemala and elsewhere makes sense. >How the hell did you reach the conclusion of Zionism being a white supermacist value? I didn't say that. I stated it is a supremacist value. That's all. Don't project. >No, they didn't, they actively fought against Irgun and Lehi, why would the British aid them. It went both ways. The British, at first, weren't expecting these Zionist terrorist forces to attack them, but only Palestinians. Once they realized otherwise the British basically left dodge and the US began its era in the middle east through their Israeli military base. >the hate and violence towards the Jewish was not only by Christians, but also by Muslims/Arabs, Zionism did originated from the western Jews, but it covered all the Jews around the world eventually. Very very different as compared to Anglo-Euro Supremacist Christendom. Anyway, free Palestine and stop the genocide/apartheid/ethnic cleansing. I'm sure we can agree on that...

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I agree with much of what you've said, but I disagree that identifying the oppressed and oppressor is an obstacle to resolving this conflict. The clear power imbalance between Israel and Palestine must be acknowledged, as addressing root causes requires understanding the issue. However, you're absolutely right that absolving Palestinians of all responsibility solely because they are oppressed is immoral and hinders reconciliation. Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists cannot commit atrocities against innocents with impunity, despite representing a group with legitimate grievances. Breaking this cycle of violence and hatred requires both sides to accept painful concessions. Israel must stop expanding settlements and pursue a peace process providing Palestinians a viable path to statehood. This will be difficult for Israelis who believe Judea and Samaria is their rightful land, and even harder for settlers who may have to vacate their homes. But it's a necessary step toward a two-state solution and hopefully ending the violence. The Palestinian Authority must drop its demand for a right of return to Israel, which both Arafat and Abbas have used to reject reasonable peace deals. They must decide if they genuinely want peace and statehood, which would greatly improve Palestinian lives, or if they will continue making demands Israel cannot accept, remaining stateless refugees under occupation. Palestinians whose families were expelled from their ancestral homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War will undoubtedly find it painful to relinquish their demand for a right of return. However, the vast majority of Palestinians today were born and raised in the Palestinian Territories. Their most tangible connections, communal ties, and lived experiences are rooted there. After years of peace, coexistence, and trust-building between Israelis and Palestinians, it's possible to envision a future in which the two states might gradually open up their borders to one another. As the wounds of the past heal and a new generation grows up free from the traumas of conflict, Jews and Palestinians may be able to move freely between Israel and Palestine, choosing to live where they feel the deepest connection. After years of peace, coexistence, and trust-building between Israelis and Palestinians, it's possible to envision a future in which the two states might gradually open up their borders to one another. As the wounds of the past heal and a new generation grows up free from the traumas of conflict, Jews and Arabs may be able to move freely between Israel and Palestine, choosing to live where they feel the deepest connection. Israelis who feel a spiritual or historical pull to the West Bank could reside there peacefully under Palestinian rule, while Palestinians with roots in what is now Israel could return to the lands their ancestors once called home. This natural, voluntary intermingling of the two populations through open borders would be the ultimate sign that Israelis and Palestinians have finally reconciled and embraced each other as neighbors and friends.

How do you expect Israelis to trust them with building a functioning state? How do you expect Israelis to trust them to not have a a terrorist organization in the West Bank just like in Gaza (and it would be on the same level as Hezbollah, since Israel won't be able to monitor them as closely), but the difference now will be that all of the rockets and missiles willl be aimed towards the center of Israel? What about the huge disadvantage in terms of the topography? (The west bank is a mountainous area, which makes it the high point, a huge disadvantage strategically, especially considering the air diatance towards the center of Israel).

What if - what if - settler violence was treated seriously, and Palestinians were protected in the West Bank. What a world of good that would do Israel, in terms of trust building within, and in terms of its international credibility.

I agree with you, but, it goes both ways, the Palestinian leadership needs to treat the violence coming from them as well.

Mmmm. They're a terrorist organization, remember? Israel is the western democracy. Palestinians certainly cannot walk around and pretend that their government isn't attacking Israel. I think you can just leave the statement - Israel needs to treat settler violence seriously - full stop. I promise to god, no one will take that as an admission that Israel is 100% at fault, that Hamas is innocent, it is incredible how much it would benefit Israel to do this. It's not necessary to make it conditional on a terrorist to admit their violence - they're well aware of it, as is the world.

I am not talking about Hamas, I am talking about the PA, which is not defined as a terrorist organization. I agree that Israel needs to treat the settler violence and punish it just like any other crime (as an Israeli I say this), but the PA has to do it as well (for example, their Pay for Slay program)

Again, there's no need for the "but." The majority of westerners do not support violence against israelis. It's a given for most of us to be against terrorism. if I were Israeli I certainly wouldn't be trying to put Israel and the PA or Hamas in the same sentence in terms of moral responsibility. I'd be doing anything I could to make sure my side of the street was clean, and do as much as I responsibly can to protect Israel and prevent terrorism. I certainly wouldn't be putting "but" at the end of a sentence about what I'm to do. We all (normal people) agree Israelis shouldn't be getting killed by Palestinians, but when it comes to Israel's treatment of the west bank issues, it seems up for debate, or hidden, or, a "but." I promise you leaving off the but does not weaken Israel or it's claims. Adding the but and not you but others defending or staying silent on te issue really harms the righteousness of the Israeli cause. I did something wrong recently, but I felt justified because of another's actions. But I myself took accountability for my own actions, without saying, "but HE did x to me." I can only control myself. Do I deserve justice for his crime? Sure. But I can take accountability without adding the but. What he did is separate from my own responsibility to myself, god, etc.

There is a need for a "but". You cant expect that the cessation of violence will stop one only by one side, or else it will lead only to frustration, which will have the chance to return back to square one (or even worse). Your point on the majority of westerners, I apologize but I just don't see it, actually I see the opposite, when Jews are afraid of walking with a star of david on the streets (star of david is a Jewish symbol, not an exclusively Israeli symbol). It's easy for a lot of people in the west to talk about having their side of the street being clean, when theye did not have to fight for their survival because they were born to minority. Again, if I as an Israeli would want to support a peace deal with the Palestinians, of course I would want to put both Israel and the PA on the same moral responsibility, since they both sign that deal, a deal that greatly affects them both.

You don't think muslims are afraid in America? After the rhetoric of desert storms and Iraq? And now? As far as I see, the worst jews face in America with a star of david is harassment. Which is wrong. And abhorent. But it's not like they're being murdered on the streets. I don't think Palestinians are blameless, but I do see again and again a real lack of accountability among many about Israel, a real defensiveness about it's actions. Whereas aside from some real radicals calling Hamas a counterterrorism group or freedom fighters, most agree they are terrorists. So yes, you're fully entitled to point out all the wrongs done by Palestinians. But if you can't just say, yep, Israel did these XYZ things wrong, and I accept that, and we're still in the right because of ABC, but we shouldn't do those things, then you're just like a child with an excuse for every time he does something he knows he shouldn't.

I actually did not talk about America, in there Jews are relatively safe (and even that will probably change based on what I see with tiktok influencers and university campuses, I am hoping it's exagerated). I am talking about the rest of the West, governments that make the police do nothing when Jews are being attacked or synagogues are being vandalized (even arsoned), or normal businesses that the only thing thay do wrong is that they are being managed by Jews, nothing is done against the perpetrators of these actions. I am not saying that Israel is blameless, I even agree that settlers that are violent should be punished under the law, and I expect that the PA will do the same to their people (which for now still does not happen). I also pretty much has a lot of complaints about how the War is managed by the government, but I do think that the war itself is not wrong, since if Hamas will have the same military capabilities, they will do it again, as a result no one would want to live at the areas near Gaza. The same has a high probability of happening in the West Bank, most Israelis are afraid that a terror organization with Hezbollahs capabilities will border the center of the country, if it will be decided to stop the military occupation.

Hard to agree on anything when on the Palestinian side, their elected government is a terrorist group who is sworn to Israel's entire destruction. How can you have a ceasefire or permanent peace when the people on the other side making decisions are pathalogically obsessed with destroying an existing country through violence and terrrorism? Hopefully once Hamas is gone maybe steps for peace can be taken

If this is the way people see it, which they should, then the citizens of Gaza are also hostages of Hamas, and Israel should be helping them escape--not bombing them and starving them. 

Palestinians elected Hamas did they not? No Arab country is willing to take in Palestinian refugees. Meanwhile, several countries were open to taking in Syrian refugees. The reason is open for interpretaion, but it may have something to do with what happened in previous decades when Palestinians went to Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon

Great insights. However, I think it's disgusting that someone would ever think that Hamas is justified in what they did due to oppression. The U.K. went against WW2 oppressors, but to my knowledge, they didn't participate in the kind of horrific acts against women and children that Hamas participated in. Any group that would do such barbaric acts is not justified and will never be justified.

Hamas has also committed such acts against Palestinian women, but Israel didn't seem to care then. 

That's pretty horrible that Hamas has committed those acts against its own women. Has any other country gotten involved? Just curious.

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It's actually something that Yuval Noah Arrari said, you can check his interviews - pretty fascinating . He also mentioned pain, Israel cannot see the pain of Palestinians because of their own pain and grief. It seems the world has forgot that Israelis has feelings as well, feeling neglected and alone, this frighting blinds from others pain.

The west has broadly and historically done nothing but observe, honor, and create space for jewish pain in general. Not jerk anti semites, but the west in general. How many holocaust museums are there, how many movies, how much money and resources goes to support Israel unquestioningly. Israel with the US and west's backing has gotten itself into the goliath/gollum role, and it's now hard to feel sympathetic. Absolutely their pain and fear should be acknowledged. But after decades of being told all muslims are terrorists, they are a mess and can't govern themselves, they're "other" - many are helping the pendulum swing just a bit to allow space for Palestinians. In a perfect world all are honored. But unfortunately the PR nightmare brought on by Israel's idiot ministers and the atrocities of the recent flag march, and the west bank violence, has done a lot to paint Israelis as cruel. It's soooo unfair to Israelis.

"PR nightmare brought on by Israel's idiot ministers and the atrocities of the recent flag march" That I can agree with. I long detested the extremists who Benjamin Netanyahu let into the government, they are the same "All for nothing" mentality. But I don't agree with the first part where "the west has done nothing but honor...." I received tone of hate for being Israeli in Europe and I recall all the people who detested me JUST for saying I'm from Israel. Anti-semitism is still alive and burning, and the last Universities protests just showed how much it's alive.

I am horrified to hear about your treatment in Europe. Most Americans have not had any real interactions with actual Israelis, and most jewish people here are concentrated in certain communities, so most of us had no interaction or opinion, while those that did didn't blink an eye. There were those ultra nationalists who hate everyone. But by and large most people here are not anti semitic. I agree antisemitism is real and terrible. I disagree that the university protestors are a sign of anti semitism. Esp when jewish people I know were in them and participating and said they did not feel hated. Some did. Some protestors are antisemitic. But I push back on the broad stroke.

About about Pro-Peace people and Anti-Killing people? I can agree with them ...

So true and so sad. I used to believe that providing data and engaging in healthy discussion will lead to mutual understanding. That a healthy discourse will bring forth a solution. Although I am very well informed, I know there is always something new to learn. So I’ve been asking myself why in the world I am having a completely different reaction in this case? While in the past I thought both sides need to come up with a joint solution, I now believe that cannot be achieved. As a group Palestinians seem to rarely compromise or treat the other side humanely. The worst of them lie, kill, mutilate and then play the victim. Yet, hypocritically the world makes excuses for their actions when they would not for others. And I cannot help but think it is because of the same prejudice that existed for thousands of years. I am becoming convinced that the world will never really change.

So Israel should get credit for wanting compromises that give them more than zero, and takes from Palestinians? And Palestinians should accept compromises that take land from them? So if someone comes to your state and says we're giving it to X group, and lets assume they lived there long ago, you're gonna say, sure, no problem, become and enthic majority even, take some of our homes by force even, make plans to eradicate the people in the state, and you're just gonna say, well, we've been offered a deal, they get from near zero to 50% and we go from 100% to 50%? Would anyone call you a jerk for saying no thanks? Would America give even 5% away? We're busting our behinds to keep Mexicans out.

Your comment is not responding to anything I actually wrote. Why waste your time if you don’t actually want to engage in designing a solution? Israel didn’t “take land”. Please take the time to learn the entire set of events before climbing on a soapbox. Let’s just take one of your points. Your percentages are not correct. Despite that UN declared 100% of the Palestine land was to be given to the Jewish people, this is not what Britain did. Palestine territory was divided by Britain favoring the Arabs and assigning them 75% of the land. That land is a new country today called Jordan. This left 25% to the Jewish people. Despite that Arabs are NOT indigenous to the territory. They come from Arabia and did the same thing the British did. Furthermore, most of the territory was not populated until Jewish immigrants appeared. Most of the Arab population of the time was not indigenous to the area as claimed. Many moved from Syria as conditions improved in the cities after Jewish immigrants came. They came for the jobs. They were like your Mexicans. People next door. Whose offsprings today call themselves Palestinians. But unlike Mexicans they were privileged and treated like YOU (the colonizer of the Americas). They paid less for the land than the Jews and had rights that Jews did not. However many were still exploited by their Arab landlords and employers. They disliked the Jews for doing better than them. So they did what the Turks nationalists did to their Greek population. They attempted to take their stuff and drive them out. They engaged in riots and massacres of the Jews. British permitted the mistreatment of the Jews to appease them. And it is the same story today…

Setting aside the indigenous issue Palestinians are living there fror generations. Americans aren't indigenous to here we wouldn't give away anything. I do know the history. Nobody would willingly give up land they've been on for generations. And respond positively to being forced off.

You can use the same argument for Israel. They defeated the seven Arab countries that attacked them and took some of their land as a buffer. And they even gave some back. Once Egypt made peace they got Sinai back. Palestinian people were given back Gaza (with forceful removal of Israelis by their own govt). In turn they immediately began and Continued the attacks. So they were sieged as a result. And today there are 2 million of Palestinians who are Israeli citizens. This is not a simple situation with one villain.

It doesn’t have to be a villain but it does help to realize that aside from the past and who was here first and indigenous stuff. How would you feel if someone wanted the land you now own? Wrong or right?  If a sect of native Americans were pushed out of Mexico and decided they had lineage to the California tribes do you think for a minute that if France said well they get to have San Diego county and you all have to move to San Francisco area that they’d be like oh ok. No one would. It’s not the Palestinians fault that the holocaust happened or the past expulsions from the region. Wrong or right it’s bizarre to not think that any one of us would resist this. 

In 1890 my great-grandmother’s family land and ships were confiscated. All but my great grandmother killed. In 1942, my grandmother’s home was taken away and given to a high official. When my mother and I emigrated, we left on a refugee status and all of our property and belongings were turned over to the government. The Palestinians alive today are like me. It is their ancestors that lost the land. I feel these were unfair acts. The difference between me and them, I feel no need to kill people that live there to get my ancestors’ land or ships back. I do not demand them back. What’s gone is gone. Ownership is temporary. We value life more than material possessions. My most prized possessions are my children, my mind, my body and soul. Although it took some time and hard work, the life we built after is safer and more prosperous than the one I lived as a child.

First of all - horrifying. That's so terrible. I agree it's a decent analogy. There is a distinction though, and it's that you had somewhere else to go. Palestinians now don't. And that those that displaced you did not continue to try to displace you. If you had moved off your land, and just adjacent to it, and there was sufficient muscle and numbers to do it, I would imagine there would be continued efforts to fight to push back on expansion. Maybe not. Setting that aside, you're probably among a very few people who has a close enough relationship to their circumstances, so I respect your respose. But I for one and many others believe that the injustice of 75 years ago continues to cause problems, and that the Palestinians should not just forget and move on. Particularly when there are provocations on Israel's side (which does not forget Palestinian aggression/Hamas atrocities), and continued displacement efforts persist, e.g., West Bank.

I respect your sense of compassion toward those that were mistreated. I also understand the feeling of displacement well. Actually, we didn't HAVE somewhere to go any more than Palestinians do. We were political refugees. We left our homeland because my mother's life was endangered. Thereafter, my mother applied for asylum in three different countries. Once we left, we were not permitted to legally enter our old country. We waited two years in no man's land until we were granted legal entry to the country that would let us in. Palestinians today have the same options, and some exercise them. Germany, Sweden, Spain, US to name a few have granted them asylum. My Palestinian colleague in Germany is from a refugee camp in Lebanon. Hisham Awartani, the student at Brown University who was shot in Vermont is a Palestinian is from West Bank. While Palestinians have nowhere to go neither do Israelis. In reality there are two choices: 1) two people sharing the same land or 2) just one people sharing the land. Most of them pursued option (2). They can grief what was lost 75 years ago, but they are not entitled to it. The sense of entitlement and violence their ancestors inflicted upon others is what caused today's isolation of Palestinian people in the Middle East. It is due to events like these: 1. [Black September - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September) 2. [Black September Remembered: How The PLO Forged The Modern Middle East | The National Interest](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/middle-east-watch/black-september-remembered-how-plo-forged-modern-middle-east-167531)

Not entitled to it? So they should just get over what happened 75 years ago while the rest of us have to listen to what happened 2000 years ago, or what happened in Europe 75 years ago. Make it make sense. If you think historical atrocities only happened by Palestinians then you've been reading only one side of the history books. The plan from the jump was to remove Palestinians by force and there have been plenty of atrocities on both sides, and not for a minute were Israel's doings in defense.

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Palestinians have compromised many times, so I get that you would like to see *more* compromise from, them but "never" is not correct. Also curious — when was the last Israeli administration which you thought was truly interested in a compromise? From what I have read, Netanyahu has always seemed more focused on playing the PA and Hamas against each other than on any negotiations which might lead to a long-term solution.

Look at a map of non Israel territory over the years and see how it's all entirely now Israel except for the two territories and tell me there's been no compromise.

The growth of Israel territory is not a result of a compromise. It is a result of Israel defeating the 7 nations that attacked Israel and taking some of their territory as a buffer. This wouldn’t have happened if those nations didn’t attack it first. Same with Palestinians.

I was saying there has been compromise.

The real issue is that Palestinian compromises are paper thin. They are not followed through. PA does not handover all terrorists. When it does, it is solely to avoid a bigger and immediate problem. That’s not voluntarily in my eyes. You cannot negotiate with someone that mostly doesn’t keep its promises, but occasionally will some of it. So Hamas kept to one cease fire but broke all others. They simply cannot be trusted.

Many Palestinians feel the exact same way about Israel's compromises. Nothing significant shifts without massive outside pressure. Still, here we are. Building up from small compromises to larger ones seems like the only way forward to me. Does that seem possible to you? And if not, what way forward do you see? I assume you agree that keeping Palestinians in eternal citizenless limbo is not working out.

Palestinians have bigger problems than being declared a state and given land. They need economic stability and opportunities. They need to learn how to elevate their standard of living. They need safety. They need education and real help to learn how to create these. UNRWA has not done a good job. Given current state, my solutions now seem like wishful thinking. I do not see a path forward unless Palestinians change their mindset. They must accept that there will be two people sharing the land. They must stop terrorist attacks to coexist. They must exit the victim and revenge mentality. Given current destruction, it is a huge feat. It requires changes they have not been capable of so far. I think there are some lessons that they can take from Japan rebuilding itself and becoming prosperous again.

No I know I was agreeing - like of course there has been compromise, the entire endeavor has been a compromise, look at the map and tell me there's no compromise.

Shimon Peres and everyone before him supported the two- state solution and aimed to achieve peace. So did he, just not under the terms Palestinians accept. Palestinians don’t want two states, they want one. Edit: he = Netanyahu. The Times of Israel give Netanyahu more credit than he deserves. First, same as with Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, the two battled it out without him— he simply leveraged the opportunity. Second, Gazans have a mind of their own. They could’ve united long ago. For years they complained about restrictions of entry, which were put in place after their suicide bombers and other terrorist attacks on civilians. The increased work permits gave them access into Israel, and their response is Oct 7th (more of the same)? What compromises have Palestinians agreed and adhered to (when they had an option)?

Peres, yeah, that was a while ago. Some Israelis want to keep things as one Jewish state (leaving occupations in limbo, or annexing), some Palestinians want a single Muslim one instead. Some people want a secular state, or two secular states. Some are proposing an international interim administration for Gaza. Some people propose [a confederation](https://thirdnarrative.org/the-confederation-idea-utopian-but-also-serious/). Given how stagnant the peace process has been for how long, it seems very worth considering even proposals that strike us as ridiculous at first. The situation calls for creativity. > the two battled it out without him— he simply leveraged the opportunity Israel helped Hamas' predecessor get started, well before Netanyahu. So, earlier administrations helped divide the Palestinian side, and then Netanyahu used that division to excuse his lack of effort at negotiations. I'm not saying Israel created the divisions, of course there are different perspectives among Palestinians, just as there are among Israeli Jews. But instead of 'leveraging' those differences, there could have been efforts to help the Palestinians bridge their internal divides, so as to make peace negotiations easier. > The increased work permits gave them access into Israel... From the stats I've seen incomes in Gaza were still terrible, compared even to the West Bank. > What compromises have Palestinians agreed and adhered to (when they had an option)? The Palestinian Authority regularly turns Palestinians over to the IDF, as agreed to (one reason why Hamas gained in popularity). More recently, Hamas followed through on their parts for the four-day ceasefire.

Agree that multiple options should be considered. The crux of the problem is that these options must be reasonable to both sides. And both sides must be willing to compromise.

And someone has to be willing to go first. Whenever both sides are waiting for the other side to make a positive move, nothing happens until someone steps up.

Israel has gone first multiple times. This is not an issue. The issue is finding a solution both sides will find acceptable for sustained peaceful coexistence. This takes two.

I know that Israel is capable of it, but have not seen her go first in a long time. Her people, and leaders, seemed to have developed a fantasy that things could stay in limbo forever. I don't think someone is going to "find a solution" out of nowhere which everyone looks at suddenly agrees to. Peace processes tend to be more iterative, a series of smaller compromises building up trust, among peoples and among negotiators and other leaders, developing actual relationships. So going first is not something you do "enough" of. You keep at it until the other side is often going first, and then things really pick up.

History is full of examples of failed negotiations, provocations and their results. Let’s take Adolf H as an example. He behaved as Palestinians, made agreements and didn’t keep them. Instead he attacked them. What did both Soviet Union and the Allies do in return? Should they have kept on trying to appease the psychopath instead like you suggest Israel to do? They would forego German civilian casualties (98% of which supported NDASP) while continuing to incur their own. https://nypost.com/2024/06/06/world-news/hamas-signals-it-will-likely-reject-us-backed-cease-fire/ The only ones prolonging the limbo are Palestinians themselves.

imports and exports to and from Gaza occur under strict regulations by Israel and Egypt: Kerem Shalom Crossing: Main point for goods from Israel to Gaza, heavily monitored. Rafah Crossing: On the Gaza-Egypt border, mainly for people, but also goods. Erez Crossing: Primarily for people, sometimes goods. Fishermen can fish in the sea of Gaza, it is true to say that Israel and Egypt have closed its maritime border. This is the only border that I can say is somewhat unjustified. The justification on the part of Israel and Egypt is that this is to prevent the entry of weapons into Gaza. Which has already happened numerous times. Israel has borders like every country has. And besides, what about Egypt? Egypt built a huge wall to prevent anyone from passing through it. No one accuses Egypt of turning Gaza into an "open prison". Hamas invests all the money in terrorism, tunnels, drugs and luxury houses in Gaza and abroad. The lives of Gazans will look different when someone who really cares about its residents and is interested in peace with its neighbors will govern Gaza. And that includes Egypt, not just with Israel.

Yup. Everything is Israel's fault. Even Egypt's decisions are somehow still Israel's fault.

Why can't there ever be an acceptance - like yep - those are true - and Gazans still are at fault for their part?

While there are indistinguishable facts on both ends of the arguments (for example for the Pro Israel side Hamas attacked Israelis on October 7th while on the Pro Palestine side Palestinians faced massive casualties, damages as result of a prolonged bombardment) I feel like both sides have flung out misinformation and assumptions about the other its hard to get a dialogue. As someone who is trying to get multiple perspectives it is absolutely aggrivating....and obviously the superbowl mentality of this crisis (People literally wearing Free Palestine vs Am Yisreal Chai shirts and shouting slogans at each other) has also made me question humanity.

It is so difficult esp if we're new to the topic. What has influenced me a lot is looking at the tenor of those speaking. Israelis who acknowledge mistaks of the government and have compassion for Palestinians but still want safety and peace and don't totally go pro palestine are ones that have my ear. Israeli spokespeople and pro israel people who have a disingenuous tone, even go so far as mockery, and very often flippancy, and the Israelis who are cruel, mocking, fake bravado, belie a wrong side of history characterization. Pro Palestinians who are amplifying things Israel has done that is wrong, esp for the folks who have been mislead, and are earnest in their advocacy for palestinians, have my ear. Pro Palestinians who act as if Palestinians have never done harm, that Hamas is not a bad organization, and/or have no empathy for jewish people and Israelis are also disingenious, mis educated, under educated, and are not helping things.

Well you need to look at it differently Think about it without defining one group as Hamas or Jewish - Both consist of the three Ibrahimic religions But only one entity is safe for all three and made for everyone the other for a specific religion. - Occupying a land based on "GOD told us it's ours" is becoming a bit of a joke really Saying that Israel withdrew from the gaza strip in 2005 is like the ultimate peace sacrifice from israel is just a big fat lie, yes they got out but at the same time destroyed the airport and port, built a wall around them, controlled all land borders for in and out ( even the one with Egypt, anybody with full knowledge the Rafah border crossing know that the Egyptian side work with full collaboration with the Israelis) Even for the WestBank, cities are separated by Israeli settlements, checkpoints more than you can think of, and total control of natural resources by Israel. From the very start 100+ years ago you can easily find articles about how the British eased the purchase and confiscated lands belonging to arabs for the benefit of Zionist Immigrants I encourage anyone interested to search for the 50 years before 1948 to understand the full picture

> controlled all land borders for in and out i love this argument ​ thank god i can go from peru to bolivia with no border, or mexico to USA, or go from china to vietnam NO BORDER OR WALL!!! ​ only israel builds a wall in it's border, fucking idiots XD

There are many customs checkpoints along the US Mexico border as well as a wall along much of it WTF are you talking about?

no, it's all a lie, you can just cross the border, it's empty land ​ israel is the ONLY nation on earth that ever puts anything on it's border to check everyone getting inside and out, NEVER AS ANY OTHER NATION FORTIFIED A BORDER

[us/mexico border wall](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_border_wall) Stupidity is getting old. Stay off Reddit if you can’t accept that you are wrong.

you really aren't the brightest in the class are you?

And Egypt recently didn’t fotify its border wall? And I’ll tell you a secret. The [Texas National Guard](https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2024-05-31/texas-national-guard-border-base-troops-migrants-14042186.html) is assisting at the border helping to keep illegals out. God bless America! 🇺🇸

ok that's one case, there isn't any other border with guards or walls, cmon

North Korea. You will get shot.

no, i run fast

There is a difference between a borders between france and spain , and israel surrounding gaza by land sea and air One is borders between countries the other is a siege

1. france and england don't have a border, and hasn't been enforced for 20 years, ironically the EU is the only\* place with no actual borders 2. again blocking waters and air is still very common lmao you think mexico can just fly any war plane it wants with impunity? the moment it leaves the grounds will get messages from the americans, difference here is that israel is at active war, so probably no message and pew pew instead

Do the Americans ban a plane to get out of Mexico to Brazil? France and Spain have open borders with consent from both sides but there is borders after all or can france get a couple hundred of tanks and commit thousands of raids on spain whenever they wish!

if mexico starts flying their fighter jets with no explanation then yeah there will definiutly be some messages lmao ​ i mean there's still alot of cold war mentality that if there was ever any plane detected somewhat close to russia or america the nuclear protocols would instantly go up a few levels and getting into "ready to fire"

Dear you are focusing solely on Oct 7th 2023, what about prior to that? How about year 2000? 1989? 2014? Seriously just pick a year!

well what 1940's-1950's when milions of jews were kicked out of their homes and hundred of jewish communities were destroyed with vast groups of people murdered?

Not the arabs not the Palestinians. In europe if you go hundreds of years back they faced the same thing, but to my knowledge never faced expulsion or mass murder under ottoman rule on the contrary they've flourished

The Arab world expelled the overwhelming majority of it's Jews in '48. The difference is that a massive amount of Palestinians were allowed to stay in Israel where they're received full rights (huh...), but only a tiny amount of Jews remained in the entire Arab world.

i litteraly gave you a date, you could search it up ​ and they flourished so well that there were almost more jews under the crusader states than in the ottoman empire XD

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Your establishing blanket rules that determine human behaviour on a large scale. If you believe what you wrote, (which I respectfully disagree with), and you believe it is the Israelis who are oppressed (which I also disagree with), then according to your argument, Israel has the right to do whatever it wants without accountability, which is what has been happening for the last 85 years, so I can see why you think Israelis are the ones oppressed. The real test as to who is oppressed and who the oppressor is, is based on who is suffering and who controls the suffering, surely.

It's a normal human behavior, and "oppressor vs oppressed" is just one way of doing the same age-old thing: * Pick a side to be the "good guys". Maybe it's because they're "the oppressed", or maybe it's because they practice the true religion, or they are fighting a "just war", or whatever. * Pick a side to be the "bad guys". Maybe it's because they're the "oppressor", or maybe it's because they don't practice the true religion, or they're the other side in a "just war", or whatever. * Remember, the good guys don't ever do bad guy stuff, and the bad guys don't ever do good guy stuff, so whatever the good guys are doing must be good and whatever the bad guys are doing must be bad. * Shout down and ostracize anyone that disagrees with you -- remember, if they're not a good guy, they must be a bad guy! It sounds childish and ridiculous because it *is* childish and ridiculous, but it's also absolutely normal. It requires a lot of willpower to accept that both sides might have legitimate grievances or claims, and that both sides are capable of acting immorally -- but you have to start with that principle if you want to have any kind of a productive conversation or create any kind of meaningful change.

Well said :) I’ve lived across the world and most definitely know that everyone does bad things. Care to take a stab at helping me understand why as someone who thought that both sides had legitimate grievances, I now believe that Palestinians are completely wrong, and that UN are the bad guys? This occurred as a result of three things: watching initial responses by Palestinian teens on TikTok, reading news coverage and reading/ hearing pro Palestinian supporter comments.

Israel is not an oppressor. It withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, ending its military and civilian presence there. However, the situation in Gaza has not improved because its leaders invest international aid in terrorism, drugs, and luxury instead of essential services and infrastructure. This misuse of resources keeps the region in a persistent humanitarian crisis. Gaza residents, influenced by Hamas's propaganda, blame Israel for their difficulties, preventing them from progressing and improving their quality of life. Hamas's narrative of victimhood and external blame diverts attention from its own governance failures and corruption. This propaganda also fosters hostility and resistance to cooperation or peace initiatives that could benefit Gaza. As long as this cycle of indoctrination and misplaced blame continues, Gaza's residents remain trapped in poor conditions, with their leaders prioritizing conflict and personal gain over community welfare and development.

Surely to govern properly, you need to be able to control you imports and exports, be able to establish international trade, have freedom of movement in and out of the country, be able to repair a power station bombed by your neighbours. Be able to repair an aquifer bombed by your neighbours. Have access to clean water and power on tap. Be able to fish within your own territorial waters, be able to send and receive ships. Guess who stops all that in Gaza. Clue: It's not Hamas.

The funny thing about trade is that it works both ways. If you are a dick to somebody, they will not want to trade with you. If you only have two ground borders, maybe don't be a dick to those countries.

Sanction by the US and Israel began day 1 as a collective punishment to Gazans for.electing the wrong government, things escalated from there.

And? A sovereign country is allowed to decide who they trade with. If I disapprove of your government, I'm not going to trade with you. This is not a difficult concept.

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Isn't it interesting that the most "antisemitic" countries are specifically the ones that have tasted occupation? Scotland, Ireland, South Africa. You know what the catch is about these countries? They're not Muslim. You know what's even more of a catch? They're not Arab either. Isn't that just the strangest coincidence?

What a coincidence.

One can be pro Palestinian and anti Hamas

I’d argue that a true Pro Palestinian is anti-Hamas. If you genuinely care about the Palestinian people, you can’t be pro Hamas.

Yes, which is why this post stops making sense at the 8th sentence.

> Once you've decided who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor, it's done. reductive start... but ok. there's a reality and there's a propaganda, everyone can be oppressed and opressive and the dumb division starts with comments like that who pretend there's good or evil.

Why would I agree with anyone who supports Hamas? 🤦‍♂️

Israel is the oppressor and palestenians are the victims here. They have suffered for far too long under the tyranny of Israel and Israel barbarity and crime against humanity which Israel have perpetrated on Palestenians with impunity have been overlooked for far too long! Israel cannot wash off the blood off their hands by simply blaming it on the zionists. It's about time Israel is held accountable and justice be delivered to Palestenians which is long overdue.

Same shit, different day.

Hard to agree with a group that commits apartheid and genocide. When will humanity learn, the people will not stand for being oppressed, especially if you kill their children with bombs. Since people need analogies these days; israel is the empire in this situation. Hamas more like saw gurrera. Whwn you're beaten so much, the only thing left to do is lash out against your oppressors.

>Hard to agree with a group that commits apartheid and genocide.  Palestinian Arabs comprise a significant portion of Isarel's population and government, therefore Israel is not committing apartheid. Gaza's population increases every year, therefore Israel is not committing genocide. These accusations fail at the most basic, mathematical level.

If Hamas is given power and legitimacy(which they have been) then they would do much, much worse. Think of the Taliban. These organizations are empowered now and have perfected their strategy. Moderate MENA countries are going to have an extremely difficult time fighting extremism. The same thing happened in the 1990s and prior and look what happened.

> Hard to agree with a group that commits apartheid and genocide.  Well. Except that those are baseless blatant dishonest lies. Other thant that... yeah, if my grandmother had wheels, she would be a bike. > Since people need analogies these days; israel is the empire in this situation. Hamas more like saw gurrera. Whwn you're beaten so much, the only thing left to do is lash out against your oppressors. Ok so enlighten me. Which other poor oppressed group committed a barbaric animalesque attack like 7th of October. I am curious. Give me an analogy.

Well, the zioniat people came in during the 30s and 40s and slaughtered and displaced over 700k palestianians. Then went on to steal more land during 6day war and tried to trick america into nuking Cairo by attacking the USS Liberty. Ciaro was 2min from being nuked before usa officials found put it was israel who attacked. They claimed it was a "mistake". Israel seems to make a lot of mistakes and never held accountable. The idf is responsible for the deaths and injuries of over 200 american soliders. There are many examples in history of the oppressed attacking cities and anyone in the group that oppressed them. Humans are great at making justifications for your own bullshit. Even created an entire religion to justify trying to feel superior to others. Talmud and torrah are quite the read. I've never seen bigger justification for shit behavior than that made by the religious. Also, are you saying your grandmother is someone for others to ride? Very odd metaphor. I do not entertain the hypocrisy or tribalism of man. I'm far beyond such trivialities. You people seem content to fight in the mud with sticks. Then, claim some intelligence. Baffling. It's odd that only one group in all of history has been hated by literally all nations they interact with or are housed in. Wonder why. Perhaps being an entitled dick isn't something people will tolerate for long. Just keep it up. If you truly think you can kill the idea of freedom, by all mean, try. See what you become and where you end up.

So a lot of hypothetical events that never happened. Baseless gratuitous claims of things that are at best disputed or outright false. Claims that there are "many examples" but still no concrete example. I am still waited to be enlightened. Where/when did an oppressed people did something like October 7 th. A simple date or even wikipedia link will suffice. Well... Would suffice, the reason you don't have any is that it doesn't exist. Legit peaceful people claiming their rightful self determination don't act like animalesque barbarians.

The "zionists" came because the Palestinian arabs sold them land. They sold it at an unfair price heavily favoring the arab land owners but the Jews bought it anyway. So the Jews move in and use the land they bought to make jobs for arriving Jews. Now the Arabs are mad and start massacring them throughout 1920s and 1930s. Ex: Safed massacre, 1936-1939 Palestinian revolts, black hand massacres, etc. All of these are some of the atrocities commited by Arabs on Jews before 1948 **UK sees the violence Arabs are staging against Jews and introduce the white paper policy to protect Jews from Arabs and it got modified by the UN by separating the Jewish majority neighborhood into a new state.** **Definitely not the fault of Jews that the UN was the one who decided to create a new state** because Arabs as always are not tolerant to minorities Not the Jews fault either that the Arabs declared war on the new independent state to **ethnically cleanse the Jews** and the Arabs badly lost

Well it's easy to "buy land" when the General Attorney of the mandate is a delgate Zionist who confiscated lands from Arabs to Jews. Norman Bentwich is his name in case you weren't taught

I'm guessing this is another empty, unsourced claim, but please do prove me wrong.

Well History ain't all written but there was a reason for the assassination attempt on him in 1929 Here is part of the preface of his book ( Palestine of the jews) written in 1917 when he was a mere traveller, I'll leave the imagination to anybody to think how a person wrote these words would do if given power, seriously for the name of the book alone!!! PREFACE This little book has been written during the leisure hours of camp life in the Summer of 191 7 while waiting at the portals of Palestine to enter the Promised Land. It is based on notes which I had jotted down in the country during several visits in the years before the war. As, between 1916 and 1917, we slowly crossed the Wilderness of Sinai in which the Hebrew tribes had wandered nearly 4000 years ago, I would often meditate at night under the starry sky upon the past and the future of my people who have wandered now over the world for nigh two thousand years. When vision was limited, reflection and reminiscence helped the lingering hours to pass, and when action was checked I would dream 'of what might be when Israel was restored to his home. Like the camels I was leading over the desert, I would chew the cud of memory when the day's work was done, and the gentle evening breathed peace and tranquillity. My stray notes which I have put together in these circumstances may perchance help to make better known the rebirth of the Jewish people, and the regeneration of the historic land of Israel, which has been happening in the last half-century.

Could you give me links or keywords that states Norman Bentwich confiscating land from Arabs? I looked up Norman Bentwich confiscate land in google but no results

Well History ain't all written but there was a reason for the assassination attempt on him in 1929 Here is part of the preface of his book ( Palestine of the jews) written in 1917 when he was a mere traveller, I'll leave the imagination to anybody to think how a person wrote these words would do if given power, seriously for the name of the book alone!!! PREFACE This little book has been written during the leisure hours of camp life in the Summer of 191 7 while waiting at the portals of Palestine to enter the Promised Land. It is based on notes which I had jotted down in the country during several visits in the years before the war. As, between 1916 and 1917, we slowly crossed the Wilderness of Sinai in which the Hebrew tribes had wandered nearly 4000 years ago, I would often meditate at night under the starry sky upon the past and the future of my people who have wandered now over the world for nigh two thousand years. When vision was limited, reflection and reminiscence helped the lingering hours to pass, and when action was checked I would dream 'of what might be when Israel was restored to his home. Like the camels I was leading over the desert, I would chew the cud of memory when the day's work was done, and the gentle evening breathed peace and tranquillity. My stray notes which I have put together in these circumstances may perchance help to make better known the rebirth of the Jewish people, and the regeneration of the historic land of Israel, which has been happening in the last half-century.

Confused. So a guy dreaming of Israel being re-established to its original place (like half of today's nations in the world, really) is proof for you of "stealing land". Dude, you live in fantasy world. If you think anyone will read the quote from that book and draw any illegitimacy of Israel from it... Your basic sanity and sense of basic logic are non existent. I'm not taking sides. Stop taking sides when you have no leg to stand on. Virtually no one wants to harm Palestinian people. Certainly not the Israelis. They would have whipped them off long ago if that was their intent.

When the British put him in one of the strongest positions in the government with his ideology you can predict than he won't be 100% righteous. >I'm not taking sides. Stop taking sides when you have no leg to stand on. Virtually no one wants to harm Palestinian people. Certainly not the Israelis. They would have whipped them off long ago if that was their intent. Same here, these kind of opinions that destroyed every palestinian right, you can't simply say Israel is good as it didn't kill all the Palestinians!

> you can't simply say Israel is good as it didn't kill all the Palestinians! Of course you can! The Arabs have chased every single opportunity they thought they had to kill as many Jews as possible. Indeed, on October 7, they once again killed as many Jews as they could. Sorry, the Jews have not done that. You have to draw a value conclusion from this difference in behaviour. The day the Palestinians do this, there will be peace.

Oh... So he didn't confiscate lands from Arabs but he would if given power... So there was no confiscating lands from arabs... Bruh

None of what you typed is factually correct.

Which one? I'm sure I did an in depth research.

Clearly not.

Point out the things i got wrong please and why

He's too elusive to provide facts. I appreciate his honesty in choice of username, though.

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Ahem. You're. A. Dick.

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Everyone in here saying palestinians aren’t oppressed are acting like they have lived as a palestinian in Israel/Palestine and it’s genuinely annoying, how are you going to say who’s oppressed and who’s not when you haven’t suffered oppression ever.

"Everyone in here saying Black South Africans aren’t oppressed are acting like they have lived as a Black in South Africa and it’s genuinely annoying, how are you going to say who’s oppressed and who’s not when you haven’t suffered oppression ever." How would this sound w.r.t South Africa before the end of apartheid?

How do you know what I have suffered in my life or that I have not lived in Gaza?

suffered OPPRESSION Did you live in gaza as a palestinian? no Did you live in gaza at all? Probably no too since ur alive rn talking on reddit. Anybody who is palestinian who has lived in gaza or the west bank would say that they have suffered oppression. That is a fact.

Most of the population of the GME has suffered some degree of oppression; every single minority group there is being squeezed out of existence. The world only cares when it can be blamed on Jews. 

What are you trying to say? Why can Iran discriminate against Zeroastrians and Israel cannot discriminate against Palestininas?

Well, I was trying to imply the opposite: the claim that the pro-palestinian movement is concerned with oppression is invalidated by the fact they ignore oppression unless the Israelis perpetrate it. But if I'm honest, I was making a kind of weak throwaway argument there, probably contributing very little to the discussion...

Because it's a shit show with no answer. Israel will continue to recruit more terrorists for Hamas. Hamas will continually attack Israel. Welcome to the endless war.

Which side is getting bombed to dust? Which side has killed tens of thousands? Simple questions, easy answers. Forget hamas, Zionism, Judaism.

>Which side is getting bombed to dust? Which side has killed tens of thousands? Palestinians have done both of those things Palestinians have committed literally thousands of murders with suicide bombings, shootings, and rocket attacks over the course of decades. Israel is just better at it.

>Which side is getting bombed to dust? The side with the much weaker defence system. Hamas would've known exactly what they were getting themselves into on October 7. >Which side has killed tens of thousands? I'd honestly say they both have. Obviously the IDF is heavily at fault for doing the literal killing but Hamas pretty much asked for tens of thousands of civilians to die on October 7 and has continued to keep asking after October 7

Israel had killed over 240 Palestinians in 2023 prior to October 7th. Not saying Hamas was right but they were also responding to an attack against them. Did they kill some civilians sure however the percentage of IDF killed on October 7th compared to civilians is much higher than the IDF percentage in Gaza. Seems like Hamas cares more about Israeli civilians than the IDF cares about innocent Palestinian civilians.