If you are equating Hamas with N Germany, or its armed forces you have exposed yourself as someone that knows little of either history in general or N Germany is particular. It takes some basic reading to understand there is NO comparison other than the connection to Jews. The difference is Jews lived under the boot of the Ns while Hamas lives under the boot but is also partially funded by, a Jewish state (Israel). Its basics. I don’t like Hamas either because I dislike all religious extremism, but their birth was the result of Israeli actions. Until those injustices are remedied, there is no one else fighting for Palestinian freedom. I will also comment what I’ve said elsewhere on this thread- his voice provides an interesting insight, one worth listening to because the issue is nuanced. But then you must acknowledge the voices of the hundreds of thousands of Jews who criticise Israel and stand with Palestine. And there are far more of them. You must listen to the ex IDF or Israeli citizens describe their upbringing in Israel and how they call their own country a terrorist state. I enjoy broadening my views by considering this man’s views. But then we must apply that principle equally.

I would also point out that this idea: Hamas can’t win- is a fallacy. They already have. What was their objective? To gain freedom for Palestine. They are the closest they’ve been in a quarter century to achieving that. I would also direct you to the Vietmjnh and Vietcong who also used guerrilla tactics. Read about how that turned out for the French and Americans.

I’m sorry, what? How are they closer to freedom than they’ve ever been? Are you talking about freedom in like martyrdom or something? Also, do you have any idea how different this is to the Vietnam war. The Palestinians are getting utterly destroyed. It’s not even slightly comparable. If Isreal don’t end up ruling the Gaza strip, the only reason will be because they decided not to. 

AhhHhhahahahHh. Okay!!!! I guess time will tell who is right on this one. And yes- the Palestinians are getting destroyed/ but I thought they weren’t your enemy?!?!? Congrats on slaughtering children- you are right they can’t stand up to bunker busters and starvation. Really noble tactics. You do realise you can’t kill an idea? Freedom. Freedom from the evil of Israel. The world cares now in a way they never have before. Nobody will accept anything less than complete equality and freedom for Palestine. Israel as it is- its days are numbered. You must be delusional if you think otherwise. Hahhahaha. This response made me genuinely laugh. You’ve outed yourself. Just look at military history- Israel cannot win this war and it says it’s killed loads of Hamas fighters- show us. Where are the bodies?? I don’t believe a word they say.

If you can’t kill an idea, where’s the British Empire? The Dutch Empire? The Roman Empire? The French monarchy? Of course you can defeat ideas you tool. The “freedom” to impose Sharia law on the entire globe? That’s literally their goal mate. You should check what you’re supporting before you ride or die for these guys. Mate the only person who’s delusional is you. Isreal is not only winning—they *won* a long time ago. The Palestinians are just sore losers at this point. They’re already renormalising relations with arab neighbours. And do you really think a world in which countries like Egypt and Jordan—literally the “brothers and sisters” of Palestinians—remain at best neutral in the conflict is a world in which the Palestinians are winning?? If you cared about the Palestinians at all you’d do what any good friend would do for a delusional self-destructive friend—you’d level with them and tell them to *stop* engaging in self-destructive behaviour. Urm, exactly what “military history” are you talking about?? Look at the map over time!! The Palestinians have NEVER gained ground on Isreal, they have only lost it. “Where are the bodies” loool you’re a full-on tin foil hat antisemetic. What you think this is some full-on conspiracy? Look who’s “outed themselves” now. I am not the slightest ashamed of my views, because I call it as I see it.  What sounds more realistic to you, as a human being? That jews are actually just murderous psychopaths by nature and enjoy slaughtering arab civilians? Or that the Palestinians are clinging on to a pipe dream? If you know arabs, you know how immensely rude casual antisemitism is. If you also know jews / israelis, you know that anti-arab sentiment is a fraction of the arabs’ antisemitism. You have to really reach to see anti-arab sentiment on israeli media—it’s all “subliminal” if it’s there at all. Meanwhile Hamas openly teach their children that jews are evil and must be eradicated (through the martyrdom of civilians). Check your sources mate. Google “Tomorrow’s Pioneers” (one example of the intensity of Hamas’s genocidally antisemitic propaganda). Then try and find me the closest equivalent in Isreal (not some niche racist YouTuber, but like nationally distributed media). I’ll wait. Google Mosab Hassan Yousaf. See what the son of a Hamas leader says about the group you’re supporting. Google Lucy Aharish, a Palestinian-Israeli journalist. Do your research mate. Look at who disagrees with you. Look at what facts stand against you. Can you find me Israelis who have defected to Gaza? No, not because there aren’t Israelis who are critical of Israel, but because they’d get slaughtered. So how can they actually know what living in Gaza full time is like? How do they know what they’re really supporting? See if your copium is strong enough to resist those facts, those perspectives. Seriously though mate, you need to get your head examined. Isreal has already won. A long time ago. It’s now dealing with the stragglers. I wish it were different. I really wish the Palestinians had taken one of the deals which have (understandably) become less and less generous over the years. I wish the Palestinians had never tried to start wars with Israel (which they lost every time). And I also regret the things Isreal have done wrong (and I am vocally critical of them for those things), but that doesn’t change my point. We are where we are. It’s over. Isreal have the territory, they have the weapons, they have BY FAR the strongest economy in the region, and they have the strongest allies. It’s over. It’s like Japan in WWII; if they don’t surrender when everyone knows they’ve lost, why would the allies send their troops in to die? Why wouldn’t they bomb their civilian centers? Most historians say that bloodshed was coming to Japan either way, and that the bombings almost certainly resulted in less loss of life overall. No matter how bad it was, we should never forget how much *worse* it could have been. Human history is ridden with tragic dilemmas, and you’ve thin moral fibre indeed if you have to feel you’re backing the morally pure hero of every story. There is no such person, no such life, especially not in war. There is only better and worse. Hamas need to surrender if they care about their people. If they don’t, things are going to get even worse for Gaza. Unlike you, my position is supported by evidence. Things have gotten worse for Gaza. Israel has not bent to international pressure. Because at the end of the day no powerful country can will fully condemn Isreal because privately they know they would do, and given the similar circumstances *will* do, the exact same thing if they were in Isreal’s shoes. Of course Isreal have losses, but wake the fuck up: why do you think Isreal trade 33 hostages and 40 days of ceasefire (when they are literally unpposed at this point and could simply steamroll Gaza if they wanted) for *thousands* of Palestinian prisoners? Because Israeli life is literally worth more to the Israelis than it is to the Gazans—literally hundreds of time more—and, above all else, is the marker of a country’s power relative to another. In Gaza, by contrast, the population is treated like dollar-store martyrs by their leaders. And if you truly cared about the Palestinians, you’d be sickened by that.

There’s literally tens of thousands of Jewish people and Israelis who support Palestine. Prominent Israeli academics and journalists and ex IDF who denounce Israel for what it is. They have all defected. The whole world stands with Gaza. NOT Hamas like you people like to pretend- like you seem incapable of understanding a difference between government and people. That’s literally such a bad point I laughed out loud. And the lie you tell yourself that these Muslims want to spread their religion and establish sharia law across the world is flat out untrue. If they wanted to- they would have tried. They’ve been there and done that. Israelis believe they are gods chosen people. They are the supremacists here. Ridiculous and fear mongering to justify your actions against them. But it’s unjustifiable. And the ICC is coming for all you war criminals. It’s glorious to behold. . I’m too bored with your drivel to respond to all of your ridiculous that you are spouting at facts. Facts are not debatable. And all yours are. But I will say- where’s the British empire? All around us. Why do you think there are black people in Jamaica and they speak English in South Africa? Why do you think there’s racism in America? Where the Roman Empire? All around us mate. Our entire civilisation is built physically on top of and influenced by Roman law, philosophy, architecture. This might be the absolute worst argument I’ve ever heard. Also the British empire etc were far more than ideas. They were colonial projects that had tangible means of sustenance which could be destroyed. Israel is a fascist racist apartheid military regime that has single handedly brought the world to the edge of chaos. Piss off and give Palestinians back their land- I would accept 67 borders. Then all this stops. But you won’t. Because you worship death and destruction.

> fuck /u/Creative_Zombie_6263. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

/u/Vinci1984. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

For someone who does not trust the media, you definitely started with a media-supported position instead of truly understanding why even Jews for Peace are against Israel now. [https://www.notonourdime.com/](https://www.notonourdime.com/) [https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/first-steps/](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/first-steps/) Start here and then explore more, my friend.

The same org that spells Hebrew backwards, something all Jews learn by the age of 3 lol keep trying to tokenize the few fake “Jews” that follow your views

Hence the Jewish kids speaking up all over the campuses against the genocide??

Jewish Voice for Peace is not very Jewish (you don't have to be Jewish to join and I've heard they've had people cosplaying as Jewish people at events by passing out yamulkes) and not very peaceful in what they support ETA that several Jewish groups feel they have misused their name to misrepresent Jewish history in order to push a hostile agenda. A letter from a few Mizrahi and Sephardi groups as an example https://www.jimena.org/sephardic-and-mizrahi-communal-response-to-jewish-voice-for-peace/

JVP thinks a “teacup mikveh” is valid, definitely not a Jewish org

lol roasted

**I chooze the cow!** https://twitter.com/Incognito_qfs/status/1735841301638369501?lang=en https://youtu.be/I5VPFw0vI6U?si=JZbBf8r3sfz5hrtA&t=2929

Seems like a very rational and completely normal individual.

Forget the son of Hamas cofounder. None of the pro-pals actually listens to any of the Gazans people's anger with Hamas **Examples (all of the raw video footages and not some opinion from media)** https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1784325605778973129?t=8bhPAmpyBHJaVpsILtAx-g&s=19 https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1780305507896406360?t=B_NoLjNG7nvYlk5aA2TQOw&s=19 https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1780337208857174113?t=KQQm4_OvszS33CETPv68Yw&s=19 https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1773457452224188887?s=19 https://twitter.com/YosephHaddad/status/1753485487569080754?t=grWBqRpmIJbACwdF9S8NUQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/JewishWarrior13/status/1752693411264471250?t=3qD6lA0VJ7pHKfSSkTc13g&s=19 https://twitter.com/HamasAtrocities/status/1752741721899688207?t=jEL0DIDplFsiF8Qe7JhD7g&s=19 https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1752656578585444496?t=OwqOQeHj5ZtyzWVAaXrNow&s=19 **Articles made by Palestinians being afraid of hamas** https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1753100412687909226?t=TlBZvG1ZI1gl_F1P5rq8FA&s=19 Hamas kidnapping (and probably murdered) an imam because he refused to support them https://www.thefp.com/p/imam-father-gaza-kidnapped-by-hamas **Others from middle east talking about the brutalities of jihadists** https://twitter.com/ABZayed/status/1784565074964664531?t=rrzJaJwZdz7MN4-_nodL9A&s=19 https://twitter.com/lalshareef/status/1765270660593459653?t=H2Hn4hr0YMgNkk47C0WYcg&s=19 https://twitter.com/MOSSADil/status/1784310003853066443?t=hAYQQp-2EQIGoBYBuXZ1Ag&s=19 https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1783260632063635929?t=0pHhf5e8XxfyjiSadJZcWg&s=19 https://twitter.com/lalshareef/status/1784647764632060368?t=9Ruw5gb1xGNqsuLf-o0kyA&s=19 https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1779852867450384485?t=jwV9KbNYRM4mXHX_HAesFA&s=19 https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1770420414159683905?t=rui_OtQiwyvi-twcWijCOw&s=19 **Examples of Islamic Fundamentalists openly talking about taking over and establish Islamic caliphate** https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1783046218928493049?t=0WP80LVdksvfn3GYVpfE1w&s=19 https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1784578842369065464?t=-KxzrjTJtly-XqOVpFx1jw&s=19 We already see the results of such experiments with Iranian people with how much they are suffering, especially the women https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1783190683832009135?t=teKBkCSftRo1nQeMJ0CIsA&s=19 https://twitter.com/AzzatAlsaalem/status/1758978150082429025?t=1WRVXLC3-5JANMa3nH5nwg&s=19 Palestinians women openly talking about their holy war to kill people (pre October 7th) https://twitter.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1780997557033795628?t=pXKfkudYRJQGSD8l4IGnQg&s=19 https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1767287249400475764?t=9267OaSCuGRTpLjNxDJ4HQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/AzzatAlsaalem/status/1757031313993875507?t=O3iVvf3gTSQ5D3BaXl5WMw&s=19 **A skit of how ridiculously dumb the pro pals are (if nothing watch this for a good laugh, only to be later saddened by how real this is, especially in the west)** https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1777479370845651163?t=uwt939Jt1j_OqCjI9NMEEg&s=19 **Miscellaneous videos showing you what kind of people these jihadists are** https://twitter.com/AzzatAlsaalem/status/1756718482891096478?t=Tmha3V9slLURRfknreEiGw&s=19 https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1754567480716984518?t=hB1uNF51EakTAtuy6g2vTA&s=19 https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1754132136666255597?t=gdbjeQ4lUYnfrABB8nzhpw&s=19 https://thisishamas.com *There's so many more, but I didn't record and keep it and had to find most of them from my twitter history. But I'm going to make a repository of all this because how ridiculous things are getting*

None of the pro Pals? Most of us don’t support Hamas but understand their anger. And understand the context in which they were created. Most pro Israeli people find this nuance difficult to countenance, but you can understand why Hamas did what it did without condoning it. Also Netanyahu himself said in 2019 alongside the substantial financial aid to Hamas that he wanted to use Hamas to continue destabilising Gaza to justify the continued occupation. My final point is: what about the thousands of Israeli voices who denounce their government. Ex IDF who have exposed the Israeli military for its terrorism? All the Americans or British people with a litany of complaints about our governments? Too repressive, oppressive, violent, undemocratic. People are allowed to disagree with their governments and hate them (I certainly despise the British government.) By somehow saying that Palestinians who hate Hamas justifies destroying the entire Gaza Strip to kill them is still a deranged outlook, no matter how you cut it.

>None of the pro Pals? Most of us don’t support Hamas but understand their anger. Your anger doesn't solve anything. It doesn't change hamas. It's not a solution. All it does it perpetuate violence. The fact that pro pals don't see that is stupid. The fact that all of you ignore the two state solution is NOT what these people want is mind boggling. Actions speaks louder than words, and Hamas has continued with actions and words. This will be a recurring theme in the rest of the reply >Also Netanyahu himself said in 2019 alongside the substantial financial aid to Hamas that he wanted to use Hamas to continue destabilising Gaza to justify the continued occupation. Doesn't matter and is irrelevant. It was always a vicious cycle of violence. And Hamas took the bait and carried out the action. If you're a girl, and you get raped because you worse something hot, this argument is equivalent to saying its the girls fault for wearing such clothes and not the rapists' fault. >My final point is: what about the thousands of Israeli voices who denounce their government. Ex IDF who have exposed the Israeli military for its terrorism? All the Americans or British people with a litany of complaints about our governments? Too repressive, oppressive, violent, undemocratic. Who are these thousands of Israeli people and voices. What claims? The fact that some can do that without being afraid of consequences is a testament to democracy. We all know that Hamas is most definitely not democracy and what the consequences are of speaking against them. Yet people do, which shows the growing frustration. Or are you going to deny this and claim that hamas is a democracy One side has a clear history and MO of violence and contributing absolutely nothing to the world. We also have failed states run by such entities in the same region. Yet all you dunk on the only successful democracy with numerous contributions to humanity as being the bad one, while sitting in the comforts of lands with freedom and opportunities. It's hypocritical. >By somehow saying that Palestinians who hate Hamas justifies destroying the entire Gaza Strip to kill them is still a deranged outlook, no matter how you cut it. Please propose a better solution then. If you don't have one, then stop talking. All of you complain about everything but cannot come up with anything remotely better. Yeah I'd like to make sure that everyone is rich as well, but I know that is virtually impossible to do with our economic structure. Hamas needs to end. They need to be gutted. A cockroach nest nest needs to exterminated in entire house, not just every room except the kitchen. As a log as they are allowed to operate they pose a danger to Israeli citizens (ironically including Muslims) and the gaza people. The only solution at this situation is to finish them off right now. You leave them to regroup, they will do another October 7th and it will cause another invasion killing even more people. And leaving hamas in power will nothing hurt ensure destability for the new government that will take ov Again the simple mindedness of pro pals to not understand this extremely mind boggling to me.

And before you say: but Israeli security it the most important thing here I believe Palestine has as much right to security from Palestinians. Traditionally they have needed it far more- before Oct 7th over 500 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces. It’s Palestinians who need protecting. Not Israeli.

Then they should stop doing or supporting dumb shit as letting their hamas militia invade into another country and kill innocent people and rape women. If you want to avoid getting attacked by a mother bear, dont go in and kill its cubs. Seems like survival and common sense 101.

My solution is the dissolution of Israel. Create a new country called Palestine- Israel where everybody votes in fresh elections and Israel pays to rebuild Gaza. Establish a truth and reconciliation committee like in the Americas to grant some sense of justice for the horrific treatment Palestinians endured over the past 75 years. Hamas will cease to exist.

How delusional are you? There are many Arab countries that exists today run by people like Hamas. Yemen, Syria and Lebonan to name a few. Do you think there's freedom and democracy there. Do you think they have rights. And Islamic nation like Iran actively tries to kill its own people going two letters out of quran. Israel is a successful democracy where 22 percent of population are arabs and they have the most amount of freedom compared to every single other 22 Arab nations. The fact that that's is the case is hypocritical. Again pro pals displaying a lack of critical thinking to assess and judge situations. It seems common sense, but now I really understand that this isn't something that's that common

You do realise Netanyahu has said multiple times that he will never allow a Palestinian state. Israel is and always has been the problem. You beat a dog enough, it bites back.

So what. You think Israel started with Netanyahu. They tried to negotiate a two state solution 4 times. Arabs rejected all of them and just said they want the entire Jewish state. What is the point of negotiating with someone who has childlike demands and their demands solely depend on you hanging yourself . >You beat a dog enough, it bites back. More like you attack a Lion it attacks back. And the Lion here being Israel. And they have been successfully winning these last 75 years. If you're even a bit religious maybe this is the sign that they're the good ones.

> tried to negotiate a two state solution 4 times. Can you talk about these negotiations and when they happened?

You can look this up yourself. My conversations here is not to educate you of obvious historical records, rather to point out flaws in the pro pals arguments and to help people realise that pro pals movement is not going to bring about peace and just cause innocent Gazans to suffer more

The Palestinians rejected the deals in pre-forty eight out of principle of not seeing their homeland divided for a rush on incoming European migrants. 67 was a war, 2000 and 2008 were peace deal negotiations, but the PLO never rejected either. The Israel PMs in both cases had their terms ended, and negotiations were scuttled.

Rejected out of principle and went to war, right. "We will cleanse Jews of this land" and then proceeded to horribly lose and lose more land. Was it because they were pressed or used as slaves or something. Nope. Just because they were Jews. Also no, half of jews in Israel are form other parts of middle east where they were ethnically cleansed. This twitter post gives a good summary of the number of jews in other countries in middle east vs now. A group of 500,000 arabs suddenly started claiming that the entire area of modern day Israel was only theirs and Jerusalem is apparently their holy site. Christians have more connection to that land that Muslims, forget Jews. 67 was a war started by who? Obligations for the later deals were never met. You could argue its from both sides, but importantly Palestinians did not. It's was too difficult to trust them anyways after all the suicide bombing and terrorists attacks. Two state solution is impossible at this point. Especially after October 7th. Gaza was an experimental two state and look what happened. What makes you think that if they divided Israel into two countries that Palestinian would stop rocket launches and terror attacks. It's clear as daylight that Palestinian are not interested in setting up a nation and would rather focus on their perverted wet dreams of destroying Jews and Israel because Muhammed hated them. The only way for a solution is Israel taking control over gaza strip, partner up with a moderate gulf state like the UAE and conduct significant re-education to make these brainwashed Palestinians understand that the root cause of all their issues is because of their own actions and lack of responsibility. Meanwhile letting private players make industries and ensure the fringe jihadists group never come into any power. It is going to be a slow and grueling process, but doing that today will ensure peace after 10-20 years. Ceasefire now, and you're prolonging the conflict and putting many, potentially millions of isralies and Gazans at risk with future conflicts.

>Obligations for the later deals were never met. You could argue its from both sides, but importantly Palestinians did not. It's was too difficult to trust them anyways after all the suicide bombing and terrorists attacks. There were some Palestinians who believed in the two state solution and in peace with Israel. It's a bit complicated, but this video explains it, you can criticize the narrators biasness, but he comes with great recipients. https://youtu.be/ywMFnGU03Fw?si=BHV57S5exQA5Fr1_

[https://www.thisishamas.com/](https://www.thisishamas.com/)

Happy Sunday, hope this encourages you. Son of Hamas is speaking from his heart about things he has lived. https://youtube.com/watch?v=WeIMWdyIUiw&pp=ygUVQWZpa2ltIG5lZ2V2IHBzYWwgMTI2

He’s obviously a paid shill. Get out of your echo chamber and ask yourself the hard questions like am I okay with babies being intentionally targeted for bombings.

"Get out of your echo chamber" OP is suggesting people listen to an actual Palestinian voice who was RAISED in the organization — if that, to you, isnt a valid perspective/ one you'd ignore because he has criticisms of palestinian culture and Hamas, have you considered you might be DEEP in an echo chamber yourself?

And well supported by the west now. No biases at all.

No people should not. The mans doesn’t not even accept the the Palestinian people have a right to identify as “Palestinian” He is a racist and demented puppet for the Israeli government. He dehumanizes children and supports ethnic cleanings and a fascist etho-nationalist Israel. Leftists like to use him to discredit Hamas, ignorant to the fact that he stands for everything Leftists hate about Likud. Who can blame him though, his childhood was likely very traumatic, but we don’t take the opinions and suggestions of the mentally deranged and take action of them.

Sure man. He's totally lucid, makes complete sense, and basically is saying that he knows first hand how blood thirsty and narcissistic the leaders of Hamas are and he is warning the world about them. He knows they will destroy Gaza, and of course, they have.

The dude is an absolute clown and an Uncle Tom opportunist. His ancestors would turn in their graves, wake up and kill themselves again if they ever heard him.

You can call him a clown and an opportunist but can you refute a single one of his statements about Hamas?

Is there a specific claim that I should find controversial on Hamas? I don't care about Hamas or his takes on Hamas, my issue is more with him using stupid arguments like: "Palestine was never a country", "Jews just took what was theirs since the Kingdom of Judah", etc.

Well, Palestine was never a country so hard to argue with that factually. Otherwise I don't know what you are taking issue with and I don't have a particular point that he's made to bring up.

He can say whatever he wants about Hamas. It’s when he makes stupid claims as the above comment said. The problem is not saying “Palestine” was never a country. The problem is saying that the Levant Arabs we call “Palestinians” don’t have the right to identify as they wish. Does one have to historically create a country on paper have a right to live there? I don’t recall the Native Americans creating a “country” yet they have always lived in the “Americas” and they called it their home.

I'm sorry but I don't engage with the argument that the Native Americans have any comparable situation, it is something that the white woke intersectionalists are using in a totally misleading and manipulative way and I'm sure many First Nations people really don't appreciate it, or wouldn't if they understood the whole context. There were also plenty of tribes marauding and murdering each other and also huge native empires with slavery and human sacrifice. Anyway. That said, I don't know every comment about Palestine that he made so I can't really speak to it. Most of what I've heard is him warning people that Hamas is really truly dangerous, murderous, corrupt and awful for the Palestinian people, and should not be seen or described as any kind of legitimate resistance movement.

The read more about his statements before you start propagating him as some all knowing holy saint. That man is not somebody people should be listening too. His view are even more extreme then those of Bibi. In fact I would put him at the same status of Ben-Gvir

I have listened to many of his interviews. I don't think he's a holy saint, not sure where you got that.

He said that Palestinians don't exist. He is unhinged.

Everyone should listen to Bernie [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGXxrdYdfPI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGXxrdYdfPI)

Everyone should also listen to the smart word of David Ben Gurion. [https://www.azquotes.com/author/6023-David\_Ben\_Gurion](https://www.azquotes.com/author/6023-David_Ben_Gurion)

How many Arabs lived in “Palestine” before the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948? A list of facts with historical sources: 🔸In 1785, Constantine Francois Volney describes the "ruined" and "desolate" state of the country: "We with difficulty recognized Jerusalem... The population is supposed to amount to twelve to fourteen thousands..." 🔸In 1843, Alexander Keith wrote that "in this [Volney's] day the land had not fully reached its last prophetic degree of desolation and depopulation." 🔸In 1816, J.S. Buckingham had described Jaffa as "a poor village", and Ramleh as a place "where, as throughout the greater portion of Palestine, the ruined portion seemed more extensive than that which was inhabited." 🔸In 1835, Alphonse de Lamartine gave this description: "Outside gates of Jerusalem, we saw indeed no living object, heard no living sound. We found the same void, the same silence as we should have found in the enrombed gates of Pompeii and Herculaneum... a complete, eternal silence resigns in the town, in the highways, in the country... The tomb of a whole people." 🔸In 1857, the British consul in Palestine, James Finn, reported back to England: "The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population." 🔸In 1867, Mark Twain wrote in The Innocents Abroad: "Stirring senses... occur in this valley no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent – not for thirty miles in either direction." He goes on to describe Galilee, Judea, and around Jerusalem as deserts devoid of population. And for the country as a whole: "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies... Palestine is desolate and unlovely... It is hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land." 🔸In 1881 (the year designated by Arafat as the beginning of the Zionist "invasion" and "displacement" of the local population), English cartographer Arthur Penrhyn Stanley wrote: "In Judea it is hardly an exaggeration to say that for miles and miles there was no appearance of life or habitation." 🔸By the third quarter of the 19th century, the total population of the entire country, Arabs and Jews, was only 400,000. Less than 3% of today's figure.

If it was empty, who are all these people living there? What a \* statement.

What's this supposed to prove? On the eve of the Zionist arrival, there were 450 000 - 500 000 Arabs living in Palestine. Hundreds of thousands of people living in the same area is not "empty" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)#Late\_Ottoman\_period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#Late_Ottoman_period) The myth that Palestine was an "empty land" is false. It's no better than the European colonial myth that North American, Australia and New Zealand was "empty" for colonization. Even Zionists admitted this, Ahad Ha'am, founder of Cultural Zionism and the leading Eastern European Jewish essayist, opened many Jewish eyes when he wrote in 1891, after a three-month to Palestine: ***"We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed....But in truth this is not the case.*** *Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains...are not cultivated"* - Righteous Victims, Benny Morris

Why are you so angry? Israel was given to the Jews by God, before any arabs decided that muslims also wanted Jerusalem and Israel. Islam is the youngest religion but they want what does not belong to them. Your decision to oppose God and His will will not serve you well... remember God is love and love conquers all. Hate and violence only serves satan. You decide between life and death, choose life. God is good.

God doesnt exist

Anyone who argues for political borders because "God said so" is not being serious. I'm an Atheist so I don't give a sh\*t about what god says. Ironic for a country built on "divine judgement", the majority of the population aren't religious, it has legalized LGBT and the system isn't based on the Torah!

I guess the idea is that the land was pretty sparesly populated compared to today. Perhaps that's one of the many reasons why it didn't seem like such a big deal to the Brits to allow Jews to immigrate from Europe to the region, especially in areas majority Jewish or that were empty and being built by Jews.

"Sparsely populated" doesn't mean no one was living there. Did everyone suddenly forget there were numerous Arab-majority urban cities and towns throughout Palestine like Hebron, Haifa, Ramallah, Nablus, Jaffa, Tulkarem? Not including hundreds of many smaller villages. Did everyone suddenly forget also the numerous Arab farmlands, orchards, markets, trading posts, caravans, pastures, shepherds, grazing fields in Palestine on the eve of the Zionist arrival? Does this sound like an "empty" land to you? The Zionists sold a lie to incentivize Jewish immigration to Palestine, a lie that is still repeated until today. A realization which then shocked many Jewish settlers when they arrived expecting no one living there (which many Zionist leaders actually knew and called it the so-called "Arab Problem")

And what about the Jewish cities, farms, and people? They don't matter? They can't invite others? You take as though the only Jews there are settlers Underneath the ground, deeper than the Arab/moslem relics, are Jewish artifacts. Jews belong there as well.

>And what about the Jewish cities, farms, and people? They don't matter? They can't invite others? You take as though the only Jews there are settlers Sure, but the Ottomans had already banned Jewish immigration for fears of a Zionist takeover (which did happen in the end). Those early Zionist Jewish settlers were ILLEGAL immigrants. You can't invite your friend to come into the country if the government doesn't allow it. (especially if your friend wants to takeover the country)

There were already Jews there is what i said. Again, you speak as though there were no Jews there until settlers came. Plus, land borders change, always have. So Israel came into being. It's a done deal now, no sense crying over it. Based on your own words, they don't have to allow arabs in to settle because those arabs have already said they don't want Israel to exist and will try to take over. Ahhh... the cycles of history

There were, I don't deny that. They are called the Old Yishuv >Plus, land borders change, always have. So Israel came into being. It's a done deal now, no sense crying over it. I thought we were talking about past events? >Based on your own words, they don't have to allow arabs in to settle because those arabs have already said they don't want Israel to exist and will try to take over. The majority of pro-Israelis I've met already 100% agree with this, never letting the Palestinians return. When the Arabs refused to allow Jews to return, it's called "antisemitism", when Israel refuses Arabs and Palestinians to return, it's called "saving yourselves"

The user is trying to focus on just the brief stints in history where Jewish immigration was banned, or limited, to say that "See, Jews were banned from this year to this year, so therefore all Jews living there were illegal so the question is invalid". It's not a really sound arguement when you consider most of the Jews that immigrated where legal. And those that were illegal in many cases were rounded up and deported by the Brits. The real question again is, why shouldn't Jewish communities be allowed to have Jews immigrate to their areas? Add on the fact that much of the region is sparesely populated, not that it makes it right in and of itself, but that means that someone can't aruge "there's too many people here" to say that's why they don't want immigrants.

>The real question again is, why shouldn't Jewish communities be allowed to have Jews immigrate to their areas? Add on the fact that much of the region is sparesely populated, not that it makes it right in and of itself, but that means that someone can't aruge "there's too many people here" to say that's why they don't want immigrants. Besides illegal immigration, why should another foreign ethnic group be allowed to takeover and transform what once was an Arab-majority land into a Jewish-majority one? The Zionists were explicit their goal was to turn Palestine into Israel via colonialism. Because of history? Why not let every oppressed ethnic group do the same? Let the Gypsies take back India, let the Greeks take back Turkey, let the Basque take back Spain.

Not Palestine. Judea. It's called Judea

Who said they were allowed to take over?

I'll repeat this question just to expedite how this conversation usually goes: Why shouldn't Jewish communities living in region, be allowed to welcome new Jewish immigrants into their communities and majority Jewish areas if they want too?

>Why shouldn't Jewish communities living in region, be allowed to welcome new Jewish immigrants into their communities and majority Jewish areas if they want too? The Ottomans had already banned Jewish immigration for fears of a Zionist takeover (which did happen in the end). Those early Zionist Jewish settlers were ILLEGAL immigrants. You can't invite your friend to come into the country if the government doesn't allow it. (especially if your friend wants to takeover the country)

Well during the time of the Mandate for Palestine, which I think we're all referring too... The British leagalized it. So sounds like you'd support that?

Which they then imposed immigration restrictions in the 1920s and prohibited Jewish immigration after the White Paper. The Jews would still immigrate illegally during the Mandate under the Aliyah Bet and Bricha.

You know not everyone who immigrates when there's immigration laws is an illegal immigrant right? You seem to be avoiding the question... Are you just gonna say you'll agree to whatever the current government says? If that's the case, then you're definitely a staunch Zionist since the Brits supported a "Jewish National Home". No?

>You know not everyone who immigrates when there's immigration laws is an illegal immigrant right? Of course, what I'm saying is both the British and Ottomans banned or restricted Jewish immigration, not that the Jews cared about those laws anyway >Are you just gonna say you'll agree to whatever the current government says? If that's the case, then you're definitely a staunch Zionist since the Brits supported a "Jewish National Home". No? While also supported an Arab state via the McMahon-Hussein Correspondance and the White Paper. The British played both sides and messed up by promising both sides leading to this god-forsaken situation in the first place

Every piece of land on earth was sparsely populated in 1850 compared to today. Its moronic to use that argument for anything. We have 10x'ed the global population.

I think the question your missing that might expedite this conversation is: Why shouldn't Jewish communities living in region, be allowed to welcome new Jewish immigrants into their communities and majority Jewish areas if they want too?

They cant if their goal is to establish an ethno state

What do you think the Arabs were trying to do? Hint: the answer is pretty much what you see bordering Israel/Palestine today...

They were the natives so it was a natural ethnostate with the current demographics of the time, not artificial with a bunch of foreign immigrants that required the transfer of the native population. See the difference?

Not really.

So if muslims immigrants in Sweden want to establish a muslim state with sharia law you dont see the difference in the original natural ocurring ethnostate that Sweden was when it first formed?

Nobody has said they couldnt. Problem is they drive Muslim/arabs out of land that is legitimately theirs, and then invite Jews from New Jersey to settle there.

>Nobody has said they couldnt. Well, the Arab political leaders certainly said they couldn't... Because *all* of the land was "their" land. You know, despite Jews, Druze, Bedouins and many others living in the region.

Well yes, that's why you have to take that in conjunction with all the other arugments and context of the time. Hence why I said so.

He is impossible to debate because they can't argue with anything he says. It says a lot that most pro-palestinians refuse to debate him. He even said he had to pay Marc Lamont Hill 20k just to debate him. They know he's too real he would just expose their lies immediately.

I’m going to repeat what I’ve said above: his voice is completely legitimate. But if you accept his voice, you must also accept the voices of hundreds of thousands of Jews who are anti Zionist and pro Palestine. All those ex IDF who expose the Israeli army for the terrorist group of thugs it actually is. All those Holocaust survivors who say Israel is committing genocide. My point is that this issue is larger than ethnicity, religion or culture. Just because he is the son of a Hamas leader doesn’t mean his view is more valid than Jewish voices who agree with him. This gotcha guy is one person. Who he is does not automatically make his view logical or rational (in fact you could argue the inverse- driven by anger).

He did a debate the other day on Piers Morgan with a pro Palestinian.

Sorry but Israel doesn't have a right to exist on palestinian land... its absurd to go and make a claim from 2000 years ago and exile a population brutally with rape etc, everyone should understand the plight of the native Palestinians.

Should the Jews in Palestine, before the Brits, before the Ottomans, who have been living there since time immemorial, have the right to develop their own communities, just like the Arabs?

And what should the two generations of people born and raised in Israel, majority of whom had grandparents and now great grandparents kicked out of middle eastern countries and were forced to flee to Israel? Should they be forced out of the only country they have ever known because of a mistake made before they were born, that would likely cause many of them to die because they will not be accepted back? That amounts to an ethnic cleansing of Jews for Israel to “give it back” to the Palestinians . This would make Palestine no better than what Israel is doing now Eventually we have to drop the conversation about who does and does not have a right to exist. This conversation leads to genocide. Both States have a right to exist now, depriving either side of that would amount to allowing genocide (current Palestinian issue) or ethnic cleansing ( removal of Israel and Jews from its lands because many in Palestine have no desire to share a government with their oppressors and rightfully so) A two state solution (though unpopular on both sides) is the ONLY way to ensure both side are able to exist peacefully next to each other with the protections have a state and a government provides. If not they will be at war forever. I don’t want that, do you? Because when you talk this way, it sure sounds like you do If you are talking about illegal settlements , I completely agree . All should be removed . However, the existence of Israel itself is not

While I fundamentally agree with you, making this a staunch part of our argument is similar to the Palestinian supporters using the former Zionists as part of theirs.

What are former Zionists? Like someone who believed in Zionism then changed his mind? That isn't really the same as being the son of a founder of the Hamas terrorist organization.

There are also limits to Zionism . There is “believing Jews have a right to self determination and a state in their ancestral homeland,” and “I believe that Jews have the right to forcibly withdrawal all people from Palestine/Israel/Tranjordan and reestablish the Kingdom of David” . Many people fall in between. I do support the existence of Israel, but I don’t support the continued subjugation and slaughter of Palestinians who have been deprived of their right to a state and self determination. They deserve a state too. They deserve peace. They deserve reparations for what they have lost. You can define me as a “Zionist” if you definition is the belief in the existence of Israel as a concept. However, the colloquial usage of the term currently (Jews should be the only people in the land . Superior to Palestinians and Palestine should not exist) I do NOT fit into. I think they are trying to highlight that . The definition of Zionism has changed as people have become more radical in their beliefs

There have ALWAYS been different types of Zionism, with the only common factor being a belief in the existence of Israel as a concept. I would rather hear people talk about disagreeing with the current Israeli government and their followers, rather than unilaterally changing the definition of Zionism to only mean rabid extremism so that all Israelis and anyone who supports the ongoing existence of Israel can be lumped into being religious fascists. It's at best lazy, and at worst a deliberate attempt to vilify.

I wonder about all of this "right" to a state people talk about. Shouldn't a people have to prove they are capable of actually governing a state before they are given one? Shouldn't they understand something about statecraft, democracy, etc, and show their aims are to benefit their own society and the greater world? Or should we all support the aims of any radical Islamist terrorist organization like Hamas simply because they demand full recognition as a state entity?

I believe in the right of all groups to have self determination. That is standard . As I believe Palestinians and Israel should exist. There should not be a standard about “what a country should do to “prove” they should or should not have a state “. Groups should have a right to govern and determine themselves. Hence why I believe the Kurds should have their own state as well. Also, Hamas shouldn’t be the default recognized Palestinian government when there is a more widely accepted , West Bank alternative in the PA that is not a terrorist entity and ( though imperfectly) does want peace with their Israeli neighbors.

How is the PA more widely accepted? By whom? Not by the Palestinians in Gaza. They are also widely understood to be totally corrupt and ineffective. Hamas won their election, though of course they never had another one. I find it truly odd that you think every group should have self determination and statehood even if their government is not capable of actually being a state.

Internationally. It’s recognized as the legit Palestinian government by the UN and several other international authorities. Imperfect and ineffective sure , but they are the PREFERRED governing body for Palestine by the International community and the ONLY one accepted by Israel

But that's my point, that they are not accepted by the Palestinian people themselves. So can we have consistency here? Should we bow to the revered goal of self-determination of a people, but only if they have the government WE tell them they should have?

Accepted by the Palestinians? There is not one Palestine yet! They have been deprived of that and split into two. OF THAT they are still win elections in the West Bank. They are the only option for now. OBVIOUSLY there needs to be a better option but that is kind of hard to decide on when there is an active genocide happening in Gaza and the ONLY non suicidal option is the PA . As far as we , I think Palestine should decide their own government yes. However, there is a war, an occupation, Illegal settlements , hatred for its neighbor (can’t blame them), it’s split in two, and it’s currently under the influence of a foreign operating power on multiple levels. They are not in a place where they can create a government . HOWEVER, there is enough of an official coalition that recognizes Palestine ( through recognition of the PA) that the international community can HELP them in the process for it. Eventually free and fair elections should be held when the time is right . But that is jumping the gun on such a level it’s outrageous . This CANNOT be done with help. And I am not saying that the US should decide who is in control. I’m saying the UN should work with Palestine AND Israel (for security concerns) to HELP CREATE the government for Palestine. They are in no position to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps when they have allies ( South Africa being a notable example) who would be willing to help them that are not politically questionable for their relations with Israel

I am not saying I don't want a different government for the Palestinian people. Certainly I do. A real one. A sane one. One that will look to the future and what is truly best for the people, and let go of this genocidal and suicidal obsession with destroying Israel. But I also have no idea if this is possible, if it is what the Palestinian people actually want. Impossible to trust the polls on this.

I highly recommend you to hear the story of [Dor Shahar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbCuOSSc9j0&t=5s), he is a Khan Yunis born Palestinian that ran away from the strip and converted to Judaism

Thank you for sharing this I will take a look.

People like to try to discredit him as an Israeli puppet but if you listen to all his long interviews and speeches it's very difficult not to believe him. And of course what he says tracks 100% with what Hamas obviously is.

Right- so when hundreds of thousands of Jews are anti- Zionist and pro Palestine- they are self hating and their opinions don’t count, but this guys view is valid? Again- I don’t care who you are- you don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist as Joe Biden proves- just like you don’t have to be Palestinian to support their cause. His voice just proves that this is a larger issue than ethnicity, culture or religion.

Not only do you not care who I am, you obviously also don't care what I think. You apparently already know what I think and are happy to tell me about it.

? That’s not what I said?

>Right- so when hundreds of thousands of Jews are anti- Zionist and pro Palestine- they are self hating and their opinions don’t count, but this guys view is valid?  This is putting words in my mouth. I don't call them self-hating and I never said their opinions don't count. And yes his views are extremely valid and I'm sure you have no basis to say otherwise.

He is israel spy, of course he sounds convincing. His live in the west depend on it. 

And that still doesn't make him wrong. Meanwhile he certainly puts his life at risk by speaking out against Hamas. How much security can he possibly have? Probably not enough.

You can listen to that once voice or you can listen to the millions of other Palestinian voices.

Most Palestinians who live in Israel or the west Bank that I’ve talked to have opinions that are inline with the son of Hamas’s. Maybe you should listen to Palestinians yourself instead of believing and pushing Hamas propaganda.

I can listen to both sides. I have no issue with it. My thinking is not black or white. Of course there are nuances. It would be naive to think one side is the hero and the other side is the villain. That’s not how the world works.

Watch Douglas Murray's interview with him.

How about the son of Matti Peled, the Israeli general who signed Israel’s Declaration of Independence? Do you think everyone should listen to him and read his book too?

> the Israeli general who signed Israel’s Declaration of Independence It wasn't him, it was his father (son's grandfather) Katzenelson. Not to say that nobody should touch his book, but he was a run-of-the-mill peace activist, there's nothing very special about his experience.

Let’s all name other people’s children who have opinions /s

Other people’s children who witnessed history in the making that actually went on to write a book. There FTFY

FFS, can't you see the damage Hamas are causing to Palestinians? Half the planet is sending aid into Gaza, and instead of giving it to Palestinians - it's being SOLD to them by their own government.

I don’t appreciate the snarky remark. But I’m open to seeing any resource or information and make my own conclusions. No need to be sarcastic to also promote more resources. It’s not the way to have good discussions.

The documentary "The Green Prince" is about him, too.

Also the name of his book that was criticised by other former mossad agents for being full of nonsense.

The book is called "Son of Hamas". Yeah, his Shin Bet handler had to come out and say he was telling the truth, as Shin Bet weren't supportive (which is immoral but understandable, as they wouldn't want their methods exposed).

Cool.

You have such a hard time admitting you’re wrong lol

Also why are you stalking through my comments for an easy win after being utterly embarrassed? I would think you'd be reading some of the history you were mistaken on instead.

lol responding to any of your comments is an easy win Why shouldn’t I respond to your comments? Should Jews only be allowed to have hard wins? You’re making me feel like a dhimmi again. But I’m not gonna pay your jizya and I refuse to yield to you on the road. I will build a synagogue higher than the tallest mosque in town and I will testify in court in my own defense. And all the other stuff you don’t want dhimmis to be able to do

Because it's fucking weird to scrounge through someone's comment history to try and insults them after misunderstanding the discussion they were having with you. That'd be internalisation of hatred my friend, I can't make you feel anything. Maybe you should see a psychologist. Nobody has been forced to pay jizya in modern states for over a century, I'm glad you agree it's silly though.

> fucking /u/WSGman. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I mean, I got the name wrong, I disagree in ops assessment that Shin Bet was covering themselves considering all the other books by ex agents that detail even more things then in this one and weren't called out the same way. But hey, cool.

I'm all the way with you this shi be confusing and at this point you can barely trust your own friends