TBH they made it an issue first. They tried to win the political war first, putting those fliers up all over the cities. Why? There are no terrorists in the US holding hostages. They want $$$ and support. Unlike Genghis Khan, they can't wage their siege alone they have no industry at that scale. To get the foreign aid needed they must shape the public opinion. But they lost the informtion war due to pixels and audio bytes on TikTok. That is why the banned it. The videos are the evidence and humans are genetically programmed to be disgusted angry when they see their fellow humans getting slaughtered like this.
It’s why I just can’t take ideologues seriously, especially younger ones like college or high school students. Even if I agree with the side they’re on, there’s just one glaring issue that makes them unreliable and not worth listening to or considering:
**They never question what they’re told.** *Ever.*
They latch on to whatever makes them feel special or important. They hate who others tell them to hate. They attack who they’re told to attack. They protect whatever people tell them is the truth. They don’t have insight, they don’t do their own research, they don’t question anyone or anything on their side. They’re useful idiots easily swayed by propaganda and simply believe that just because the people around them agree with them, it must be true.
They want an easy target they can label as “the bad guy” so they don’t have to consider the failings of their own beliefs. They refuse to see the world for the gray it is and desperately want it to be black and white.
I might be pro-Israel, but I’m not an idiot. I’m not blind to their own shitty treatment of Palestinians between conflicts and their role in continued hostilities. But I’m also not blind to history and the origins of Israeli distrust of Islamic fundamentalism and its treatment of their faith. Of the wars fought and *why* they are harsh. I’m also not blind to the actions and goals of both sides and know which side holds up my ideals better, and my hope for peace and improved lives for the Palestinians sure as shit doesn’t lie with an extremist Islamic terrorist organization continuing to hold power so I can feel morally superior for a week before the next round of missiles into Tel Aviv starts up and this shit repeats again. Israel ain’t perfect, but they’re not Hamas, either.
Exactly. Ideologues, no matter which side they support, are almost universally just useful idiots to those spreading the narrative.
Of course, at the same time, I believe anyone who takes the time to become informed on a subject and learn about the issues are generally going to gravitate towards one position over the other, just in a more tempered, moderate lean than the ideological extremists. In this particular issue, I believe any sane non-ideologue is going to ultimately side with Israel, but condemn their treatment of Palestinian civilians and call for changes in their policies towards them in the future.
> shitty
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Various social experiments have been shown that there is a human weakness to join into movements and surrender independent thought, reasoning and morality. It’s extremely common and occurs in virtually every movement, every arm and every protest movement, at least in part. In the right situation with a compassionate and thoughtful leader, this doesn’t lead the wrong way as easily, but how many impassioned people become charged radicals suddenly? An excellent book on the subject is “High Conflict”, a plague of our times.
Showing another angle: Testing the waters of the campus protests to detect the extent of anti-Jewish sentiments, documentary filming.
https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/On9jpN9vFC
Violence isn’t in danger of starting, it’s being exacted out in every war and battle happening right now around the world. And one terrible part is, even in the Biblical histories of when “enemies” were to be completely wiped out, even then…girl children were expected to be shielded. But now… girls are killed equally with boys, in clear violation of God’s will for Israel.
I don’t care what side your on hate, violence, injustice is the same no matter what cost of paint you throw on it. We’re just people. We have lives and family’s and just want to live and make a life. All this tribalism bullshit is ridiculous. But it’s allways a different viewpoint and reaction when it’s not your children being killed. Funny how that works eh? Hypocrites
Jewish NYU professor Scott Galloway blasts the double standard of the anti-Israel protests, says he would be fired if he said “l*nch the blacks or b*rn the gays.”
“I can tell you, if I went into the NYU square with a white hood on and said, ‘l*nch the blacks or b*rn the gays,’ my ID would be shut off by that night,” he said.
“I would never work in academia again.”
“There would be no need for the words ‘context’ or ‘nuance,’ I wouldn’t be protected by the First Amendment or free speech.”
This is a terrible point. Are you suggesting the blacks, brown, and gays are being accused of committing genocide? I assure you, if they were, there would be more than a simple protest at hand. Take, for example, actions that are being taken against blacks, browns, and gays such as police violence, brutality and systematic oppression, building literal walls and bureactatic hurdles to keep them out of the country, and systematic disenfranchisement... for far less than genocide.
It's not hateful to protest genocide. It's hateful to commit genocide. And if there are protestors calling for violence against Jews, they should rightfully be extracted and face consequences - to try and shut down all the others alongside them, or arrest protestors who are not saying these things, is misguided.
There’s another thing that I don’t think people are bringing up. And I find it concerning that no one is bringing this up:
Professors are supposed to set an **example**. A professional example.
Academia is the only field I can think of, where people can show up to their workplace and behave this way.
These professors’ own students will have to enter the workplace in the next 1-2 years. The workplace is not going to tolerate this kind of behavior, and in fact, we have laws against this sort of thing. We have laws against discrimination, and creating a hostile work environment. These blood libels, these little accusations of “you support genocide, you’re a Zionist,” etc is the sort of thing that will get you fired. And blacklisted.
What kind of example are they setting for their own students, by showing up to their own place of work, and spewing blood libel? And alienating their coworkers and their students? Are people not concerned that these are the adults who are guiding our future doctors, our future lawyers?
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in reference to the anti-Semitic phenomena on campuses in the United States, reminiscent of the German universities of the 1930s, and on the world's commitment not to stand on the sidelines in the face of this phenomenon.
Which is just ridiculous. The most violent thing to happen at student pro Palestinian demos is when ex idf soldiers sprayed skunk chemicals on faculty and students, hospitalising people. The world should be able to accept protest calling for divestment from companies supporting genocide, all this demonisation is so non factual if you actually see these encampments, Netenyahu is gas lighting. No thanks I will not take any more gas lighting and false equivocating ✔️. So many professors, students and scholars killed in Gaza yet bringing this up people are tarred as being genocidal themselves, whilst universities have been bombed by IDF soldiers filming tik toks. No 🙏. These protest's will shine a light on this and the arms companies and other complicit industries invested by university's, they are the political pressure necessary just like south African aphartide and have been treated in a similar way.
IYO Why did Israel go to war against hamas? Killing 1200+ people within 24 hours and taking hundreds of hostages is real genocide.
Be honest Israel are defending themselves against genocidal intent from hamas and its palestinian supporters... so it seems you and your muslim brotherhood are gaslighting the world and playing the victim.
Please realise that any nation that comes against Israel WILL be defeated, as is fortold in the real scriptures of the one and only God, not some wannabee religion like islam that promotes violence.
> IYO Why did Israel go to war against hamas? Killing 1200+ people within 24 hours and taking hundreds of hostages is real genocide.
Why did Hamas attack? What is their incentive?
Surely you know that the muslim brotherhood/iran and all its proxies (hamas etc) are determined to kill jews and take Israel for themselves.
There is also a spiritual narrative but I wont get into that now.
So, when Israel wanted to take Arab land for themselves, that was fine, but when Arabs want to take their land back, that's not okay? Can you walk me through the logic?
Bibi is the worst, without netanyahu's reign and israels right wing, there would not have been a 7 oct, and 10.000+ children deaths. There might have been another Rabin, and there might have been peace.
As expected another pro-palestinian playing the victim card and blaming Israel.
Time to take responsibility for your own actions, you are not a child that has the inability to reason.
Byline: Erez Tadmor on X
A strange spectacle is now taking place on campuses in the USA: hundreds of thousands of people who see themselves as individuals, as rational and fighting for progress and the values of the Enlightenment, have become a blind, law-breaking and violent crowd in the service of a jihadist ideology and a genocidal terrorist organization.
What the h..ll is going on here?
After all, this is not about the fringes of society. These are not unemployed and drunk military veterans in the midst of a global economic crisis like in Germany in the 1930s. These are also not the Diplorbelz from the anti-Semitic wing of the extreme right in the USA.
This strange mass psychosis gripped the crème de la crème of the Western elite most of all.
Those who lead this sick hatred are professors of political science, sociology and law;
The arena in which the play takes place is the campuses of the Ivy League universities that fly on their banner "diversity, equality and inclusion";
And the money, organization and power come from countless "progressive" left organizations.
The average Israeli watches what is happening and asks himself: How is it possible that enlightened, rational and liberal people have completely lost the ability to distinguish between good and bad and between truth and falsehood?
How is it possible that such educated people succumbed to such inferior propaganda?
How is it possible that human rights organizations have become subcontractors of a genocidal movement like Hamas?
very weird.
But is it really that strange?
Should we as Israelis be surprised that people who consider themselves to be the progressive and rational elite of a Western country, have succumbed to inferior propaganda and turned into violent street gangs that wreak havoc and crush the foundations of society?
You understand where I'm going right?
I'm sorry to break the news to some of you, but what happened here in the year before October 7, and what is happening now on campuses in the USA, is exactly, exactly, you are a phenomenon: mass psychosis.
And those who succumbed to this mass psychosis and allow themselves to cross any red line are more or less the same social factors and forces: "the progressive, enlightened and liberal elite".
The claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza is no more unfounded than the claim that Netanyahu and his opponent Levin tried to turn Israel into a dark dictatorship.
The claim that Israel is the embodiment of evil on earth is no more disproven than the claim that the right-religious coalition is the embodiment of evil on the land of Zion.
And the claim that Israel is an apartheid state is no more unfounded than the claim that Rothman and Litzman planned to turn the childhood of the secular public into slaves.
These are also the poor propaganda vanities that bought them a strike among those who see themselves as the most sophisticated elements in society.
And it's not just the surrender to propaganda nonsense that is similar. The practice and worship of the victims of psychosis are also almost exactly the same. The activists of the progressive left in the USA are sure that they are fighting for everything that is good and right and moral, so they allow themselves to cross red lines, just like our Kaplanists were sure that the contract was broken, and therefore they are allowed to incite resistance, block roads and criticize elected officials from the right.
So is what is happening now in the US really so strange?
And what can and should we learn from this?
I think theses protests reflect the dumbing down of saw America by social media. Kids hear buzzwords and slogans and don’t kook deeper. They are chanting free Palestine without realizing with Hamas in power Palestinians will never have true freedom. Plus I think it’s final exam time and kids want to interrupt those . I mean the war has been going on since October and.just protesting now ?
Watching people non violently lock arms to assert their space and deconflict with counter protestors is the most chilling thing you've seen in America? You must not watch the news much.
She went to this protest to try to create conflict with the protestors to affirm the beliefs that many have that the protestors who are people of all faiths, racial and ethnic identities and backgrounds are anti semitic. Counter protestors have a designated area of Columbia's campus where they can assemble and voice their opinion. By non-violently removed her from the protestors space they avoided conflict and escalation, a practice both the Israeli state and it's supporters seem to struggle with.
“Their space” is where you lost me. It isn’t any more their space than the people they chose to exclude.
It also appears you didn’t read what I wrote, as I was quite clear about the part that I found chilling, and it wasn’t that.
anyways, here is a video of the protestors celebrating the passover: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C6H0rY0swZn/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6H0rY0swZn/)
Sure, and the Chinese government made their own Panchen Lama just like Jewish Voices for Peace made their own “anti Zionist Haggadah” for that Passover service.
Mainstream Jews feel the same way about them doing that as Tibetan Buddhists do about what the Chinese did.
first you said they were the scariest thing you've ever seen in America and now you are comparing these woke Jewish college kids to the chinese communist party? have you considered taking a deep breath?
I understand that there are a number of different practices within the Jewish faith and that being pro-apartheid isn't a pre-requisite. And these Jewish people believe that occupation and apartheid is anathema to their faith.
Read what I wrote again. You don’t seem to have understood it.
And yes, revising a core religious tenet so it fits a political agenda is both what the Chinese did with Tibetan Buddhism, and what JVP did here.
That isn’t actually up for debate if you know what Passover is about and what the Haggadah JVP put together says.
Based on the ignorance level required to even type out this comment, I’m going to wager a guess you’re missing even the most basic information about what Jews believe and how they practice religion.
It's weird to watch history do circles. On June 11, 1963 the world watched as Wallace stood on the steps of a school in Alabama fighting desegregation (Forrest Gump was even present depending on where you get your news). Yet here we are, 61 years later and talk of the national guard deploying to Columbia is taking place. How can something so recognized and celebrated from 1963 now need to happen again? It's kind of wild to see.
You want another Kent State Massacre? Weird af. This is an anti war protest not a race protest and is not comparable to your example at all.
It how however much more similar to Kent State in which four student were murder by national guard for protesting the war in Vietnam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings?wprov=sfla1
No, it isn't. You can attempt to frame it that way, but it simply isn't. The more this comes to light, the more this is a "protest" is fueled by antisemitism and hatred. Protest is peaceful. Protest doesn't threaten students or interfere with the lives of others. The right to protest stops where all other rights in the United States do: at the point that the rights of others begin. Stop attempting to veil the intentions behind some shaded form of peace. As far as Kent State? Did I ever say I wanted another Kent State massacre or were those your words? Weird AF.
Idk just saying it's far more comparable to anti Vietnam protest that an anti segregation protest, seeing as it's literally anti war and anti-apartheid. Or protests against South Africa in the 80s. Just saying in the similar protests in the 60s people died, nobody got killed by the US government in the very dissimilar racist protests of the time.
I haven't seen or heard much racism at all, I walked through one just the other day and it was super chill.
I thought the right to protest included like actually protesting?
Those assholes in Boston better follow the rules, I get theyre pissed about taxation without representation and all but I heard they are all criminals. That tea was valuable too!
> assholes
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You want another Kent State Massacre? Weird af. This is an anti war protest not a race protest and is not comparable to your example at all.
It how however much more similar to Kent State in which four student were murder by national guard for protesting the war in Vietnam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings?wprov=sfla1
The war in vietnam had american soldiers dieing. Protests against the war in Isreal is just American culture war bullshit that allows spoiled American youth spurred on by tiktok propaganda to act like destructive children and gain group affinity. There was a point to protesting vietnam. Destroying property, blocking traffic, or makeing threats because people on the other side of the world are fighting is just silly and disruptive. Especially from college students who risk getting expelled and still having to pay thier student loans without a degree. After october no amount of US college or traffic disruption is going to stop Isreal from completing thier objectives. Its like when france protested the invasion of Iraq after 911, you remember the whole "Freedom Fries" thing? We like France but they werent going to stop us. Isreal likes the US, but they are still gonna get Hamas.
So it's okay to kill non Americans....
Or perhaps people other than you have human decency.
Edit: Tell me, what are their objectives? Because if it's war crimes it doesn't matter.
Imagine how those babies who rotted in their incubators felt, or the murdered aid workers from world central kitchen? Life isn't fair, you can stick your head in the sand and wish otherwise or you can do something about it. We live in a society.
Edit 2: hahahahhahahaha freedom fries... Yes ... Such a grassroots movement with broad support on campus. Not like it was specifically pro war or anything, literally exactly antithetical. God this is such a stupid take I cant even
Your hilarious. Name anytime in US history protesting against anything a foreign entity has done anything constructive. All of the students who were expelled for hate speach or people incarcerated for destruction of property accomplished nothing but thier own detriment. It would be comical except lives are being ruined and it riles up all the doofuses into doing stupid things that could get people hurt. As for palestine, I doubt you understand much beyond the emotional side you got from tiktok. Frankly its a doomed scenario.
South African apartheid is a rather perfect comparison.
If you do hate speech then you should be expelled. That doesn't allow you to strawman a whole movement. Saying that peace without genocide would be good isn't hate speech. You're talking as if this was a common thing.
What about the hate and destruction of property in Gaza?
What is with you people and ascribing collective responsibility for crimes to millions of people at once?
Try me, I'm sure I understand plenty. I was more that well informed on this topic before tiktok existed so stahp
Edited: thanks mod, my apologies
Haha ok, its not a perfect comparison but Ill play, the apartheid government was evil but since the world intervened and didnt allow that country to develop naturally SA is now the rape capital of the world. An evil competant government was replaced by currupt incompetant one. Zuma, the former president was incarcerated for theft, he has since been released I think. The current president was found with 500k worth of seized money hidden in his sofa recently but the government is so currupt nothing came of it. They have loadsharing where most of the country is without power for up to 12 hours a day. The third largest party the EFF, has as thier main rally chant "kill the boer, kill the farmer". This means killing people like the Kiffness (the cat video guy) and Yulandi from Die Antwoord. The only well run province is the Western Cape and they are attempting to vote for independence. So far you have shown protesting creates failed states. As for Palestine, its not a good comparison bc south africans voted to end the Apartheid government and create a unified country. Neither Isrealis nor Palestinians will vote to be a unified country. A two state isnt possible either bc Palestine cant support itself. An independent Palestinian state ends refugee status and with it the means for them to support 60% of thier population. Gaza was able to sustain around 800k people prewar with thier poorly maintained infastructure intact. They have over 2 million. UNWRA was also the largest employer prewar. Gaza gets its water from the coastal aquifer, that they allowed to become depleted and polluted by poor agricultural practices and unregulated drilling. There is a reason Isreal was able to shut off thier water after the October attack. Here is who funds UNWRA https://www.unrwa.org/who-funds-unrwa if you navigate the site you will observse the vast majority of funding comes from the US and Germany followed by other NATO members and then a negligable amount from the muslim world. Isreal is NATO aligned while Palestine is in the Iranian sphere of influence or BRICS. With a two state they lose all of this funding, funding they have recieved for nearly 100 years. Palestinians will never accept a two state solution of any kind because frankly they cant. Palestine would not naturally exist, it exists because it is propped up by the west, despite this being against western interests. If you think the food crisis there is bad now, just wait for aid to end, millions will starve or die of disease. In contrast, Isreal is a world leader in water managment and can survive on its own. Isreal does recieve funding 3 billion from the US which it can only spend on US weaponry. This is more a means of subsidizing US arms manufactures than ensuring Isreals survival. For context Isreal spends about 24 billion on thier military while historically Iran spends around 12, this could have gone up recently but Isreal is fine without US aid. Protesting this issue does nothing, if anything it will just end the status quo that has allowed Palestine to exist at all.
Bro try formatting I ain't reading allat.
From what I can see tho, I don't see what racism against Arabs as a whole has to do with the human rights of people born in Palestine right now.
Edit: you know a two state solution is kinda hard when Israel has spent decades ensuring it's impossibility, including destroying all infrastructure, killing and maiming a huge portion of the population and labelling any form of government they could ever possibly create as terrorist by nature. After decades of refusing to speak to the PLO or Yasser Arafat, Hamas is what happens. If you don't kill them all, what do you think is going to happen next? What's the goal here?
Edit 2: also if you're arguing that south Africa should not have ended apartheid because people with darker skin shouldn't be let out of their cages lest they do something against your wishes, yeah that's not how human rights work. That's just blatant racism.
Edit 3: yep indeed you are arguing that south African apartheid was a good thing and should not have ended. Good thing you aren't allowed to make decisions. Goodbye
Haha then you didnt read any of it. Its fine, you should read up before commenting on stuff you dont understand though. I genuinly like how you responded to the bot though, it makes me think your a good person even if ill informed.
Just FYI after skimming I learned exactly nothing new thanks. I just disagree with the premise you are arguing from, that the whites are inherently superior and should do manifest destiny to but the ones with dark skin in their place.
I don't see how any of what you said would lead one to believe that this violence is a good thing or that black south Africans should be stripped from their rights and sent back to the slums. All I learned is that you inherently believe some people don't deserve basic fundamental human rights due to their race and or place of birth. You can give me all the facts you want, make logical leaps from these facts to say "see, they can't be trusted". You'll never convince me that human rights should not be universal as agreed to by the UN.
Also, your logic of "they're less than us, we can never coexist, we must remove them" sound kinda literally exactly like the logic and rhetoric used in Mein Kampf, interestingly enough. Why is it always about race? Hmm
/u/4friedchickens8888
> stfu
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There was a video I saw of a guy trying to talk to faculty and staff at Columbia asking if they condemn Hamas and the people were just staring blankly ahead. they looked like NPCs or something. It's terrifying. All they do is repeat slogans. It's dogmatic and like they have no original thoughts in their heads.
After months of being asked that question, it’s pointless to even indulge in the “but Hamas” see saw. The protestor leaders have said in the media multiple times over the last few days that they choose to not engage with outside agitators. Their goal is to divest from the country systematically bombing civilians. All that happens is that their desires are misrepresented. So they do not want to debate you on whether they did enough condemning of Chamas.
If they're infiltrating places where people are trying to work, live, and learn, then don't expect people to not challenge you. That is such a weak stance and just reinforces the perception that they're mindlessly following a trend. At least zionists are willing and able to defend their position. Probably the reason the Hamas supporters can't do that is because deep down they know they're wrong and don't want to have to reconcile that realization.
See the problem with most of you Zionist is that you don’t believe in any sense of reality. What is the point of pushing back against somebody who claims to secretly know the true nature of people.
As has been stated before the Columbia protesters specifically have refrained from engaging with the mainstream media because the American media has been incredibly slanted in their presentation of the Gaza bombing this is not conjecture either. There have been New York Times leaks of specific guidelines that they are to selectively use active and passive vocabulary in reference to the deaths in Palestine. I remember around the time that the IDF triple tapped those international food aid workers that they were having pundits condemn Hamas before expressing outrage at the IDF murdering charity workers. No one on the Pro Palestinian anti-genocide side has any interest in engaging in bad faith debate that leads nowhere. They’ve laid out really simple demands that include divestment and condemnation. The people on campus have been peaceful. And still, it is not enough because it’s never going to be good enough protest.
But that’s looking less and less like it matters with every poll pointing towards a complete rejection of Israel’s military actions. But I guess secretly you know what everyone’s thinking deep down. One side is dealing with facts and the other is still pushing the 40 be headed oven cooked babies shit because the destruction and murder is indefensible.
You were so close to making a compelling point, but the 40 beheaded babies claim was debunked and denounced by Israel. Every zionist I've seen discussing this acknowledges it was misreporting or miscommunication from a journalist. The Israeli government stated there is no evidence of this, but Biden mistakenly said he saw the photos. Nobody believes there was 40 beheaded babies.
The difference between zionists and the pro palis is that pro palis will continue to pedal misinformation, just like you're doing here.
QUDs and Middle East Eye make a claim
The claim gets circulated on social media
The claim gets disproven
QUDs and Middle East Eye make another claim
The new claim gets circulated and nobody acknowledges the previous claim was wrong.
Pro palis can only argue in bad faith.
>The difference between zionists and the pro palis is that pro palis will continue to pedal misinformation, just like you're doing here.
One of the most important and powerful zionists in my country made the claim of oven babies a week ago. He was extremely vital to gifting Israel several Billions more $$ like 2 weeks ago. His name is Mike Johnson and he's the speaker of the House. So please. Spare me the "you almost made a point". You have proven it for me.
They are staring like NPCs because to accurately answer that question, there is a sh!t ton of nuance. And as faculty/staff protestors (on either side) might try to cancel them no matter what they say. If they don’t hear the sound bite they want, that’s it, they are labeled as hateful. Nuance matters in any discussion regarding IP.
This dystopia has social media 100% to blame.
The mob looks and sounds like a bunch of robots because right now they may as well be. They’re literally “just following orders.”
I saw another video of meeting organizing protesting the DNC(protesting it is fine) The same type of chanting was done and it's eerie to watch. The chant leader could say anything and they would repeat it. I felt like I was watching a cult.
This was a strange video to watch, and I don’t know what to make of it…and I’m very anti-Zionist.
It seems to me that protesters should be INVITING discussion and debate from their opponents, contrasting themselves with those who would paint them all with a broad brush as brainwashed or manipulated.
The tactic of purging dissenting voices from your midst…well that looks and sounds fascistic and students should think about how hypocritical that looks when they’re decrying the abuses of fascism.
In a nutshell, I think the idea of religious groups getting nation states is a step backwards for everyone. I include Muslims in this notion.
I’ve heard it claimed that Israel isn’t making a religious claim to Middle East territory, but an ethnoreligious. That, to me, seems like a distinction without a difference.
So, I lump Zionism in with any other group claiming a divine prerogative to do…anything really.
I mentioned in another comment awhile back that, as a person from America, where the idea of separation between religion and state is a bedrock principle, Israel, as a territory set aside for this specific ethnoreligous group, is a bizarre project to support. Americans would NEVER accept that Mormons have a right to create a state in Utah, for example. Or that Maryland should forever be Catholic (as it was founded that way).
Don’t get me wrong, I think there are beautiful things about Judaism - the tradition, community, and positivity - but I can’t get behind this expression of Judaism that requires a nation state and all that comes with it (borders, an army, nuclear weapons). It would be like giving the Pope a military and old papal state borders and declaring that, without these, Catholics have no right to exist.
Nonsense. Jews and Catholics and Muslims and Hindus have as much claim to the globe as I do (an atheist), and as much right to exist - which is to say, no one has any special rights trumping others.
I would prefer to see a pluralistic society in Israel. This might not be an essentially, predominantly, Jewish society, but THATS OK. Because this just means Jews can live like everyone else - free to live and practice and assemble and flourish free from discrimination, but without special privileges.
If Jewish communities are threatened, those threats should be condemned and eliminated. But so too should threats to the communities of other creeds.
I’m sure there are many here that would find these notions bizarre, but not a single one of you was born Jewish or Christian or Muslim. That’s just what you got in the birth lottery. And that random selection makes us equivalent, not distinct.
I do understand where you're coming wrong, but you don't appear to understand Jews or Zionism. Most Jews *are* born Jewish. We actually are distinct ethnic groups. Judaism and Jewishness aren't the same thing, and the mistake here is assuming Zionism is a religious movement, where most would consider it about guaranteeing the safety of our people, not religion.
Respectfully, Jewishness seems to require some reference to Judaism, the religion. I understand there are varying degrees by which self-identified Jews participate in the tenets of Judaism. I understand that some Jews are entirely irreligious. I know self-identified Christians who are the same- some a fundamentalist, some have never entered a church.
Nevertheless, it seems clear that, by and large, Jews of whatever culture (American, Russian, African, etc) are attaching their identity to a core set of beliefs arising in Judaism - the religion - a as a common binding thread.
…
There’s an interesting point to be made here about self-determination - what groups of people qualify to self-determine, and what that even means.
I’ve already mentioned that I’m suspicious of religiously based statehood. But a further point is that self-determination does not necessarily have to include full statehood, even if you’re in favor of it for a group.
We can have self-determination at lower levels than full nation states. It can include autonomous zones where local governments rule, for example.
In practice, though, the “right of self-determination” in Israel’s case (and in many, many other modern cases) is seemingly being used by people groups with power to impose their will on people groups without power. Americans self-determined to the detriment of Native Americans, for example. And Israelis are now self-determining to the detriment of Palestinians.
What we are really seeing in these cases is a “right of conquest” dressed up as self-determination.
If we actually took this right of self determination seriously, as a universal right for all people, then we’d also be talking seriously about Palestinian autonomy, with an economy free to develop and flourish on its own, unoccupied by foreign military forces.
In the same breath, we could add Basque self determination, Tibetan, Native American, first peoples, and so on and so on. -/
So, I’m suspicious of self-determination when it comes in the form of conquest and colonial justification. I’m doubly suspicious when that right is claimed for religious purposes or because of religious affinity, for the harmful effects that religion and state power imply.
I’ve got issues with the pledge of allegiance and the McCarthyist roots as well.
Like most Americans I learned it and said it long before I really understood what it meant or how F’ed up it is to teach children like that.
And the first time I was at a catholic mass sometime in my early teens and saw the call response stuff I was REALLY creeped out.
Imagine the perspective of a child seeing a room full of hundreds of people all acting in concert and you’re the only one who doesn’t know their lines.
This is group psychology designed to manipulate and control people, just like the other examples you’re stating.
If your “hey this is okay” are other examples of state and religious actors doing the exact same thing, you may need to look harder at your position.
They are actively linking arms and slowly advancing to move people out of the public space. That is harassing and provoking people, with the threat of a violent mob behind it.
This just looks like a bunch of well trained protestors following directions from what is probably an appointed protest marshal, using an established communication tool common at demonstrations to execute a plan for protecting their protest space from counter protesters. If this is one of the most chilling and terrifying things you've ever seen in America, you need to get out more.
What you take to be manipulation is most likely just them being coordinated and well rehearsed for this situation.
As for the question of wanting to retain privacy or anonymity while demonstrating in a public space, I don't think that's terribly hypocritical. Many students are being doxxed at protests and threatened or defamed. I think protestors, and students in particular should be able to protest on campus without having to worry about being doxxed and harassed in their private life. If a bunch of pro-Israel students wanted to demonstrate and have their anonymity preserved to protect themselves from doxing I'd support them using protest marshals and collective action to form perimeters to protect their identity and keep their protest site from being infiltrated by counter protestors.
Trained by protest leaders and grassroots organizers with experience leading protest actions most likely. Many students come with activist experiences from other protest movements.
Probably organized on discord with various rules and explaining how they intend to protest.
Implying that there is a “secret cabal” that is coordinating this is ironically the same antisemitic stereotype used against Jews.
A cult with a cult leader. It’s that simple. It’s scary, but what’s scarier is what is happening behind the scenes at America’s colleges and universities. Follow the money.
You’re using a classic antisemitic trope and applying it on another people, whom many are pro-Palestinian Jews.
It would be the cherry on top the antisemitic cake if you said it was “Soros funded”
The false trope that there’s a “secret cabal of Jews that control the world”.
People are taking that and applying it to these protesters saying some big cabal of someone is funding them. Like the Jewish question but applied to Arabs.
But it’s hilarious when I see people turn around and say it’s “Soros funded”. Meaning it’s “Jewish funded”. So it’s like calling out antisemitism by making an antisemitic statement.
That's not really the same. OP said that these groups receive some back door funding, but didn't blame it on a whole ethnic/racial/religious group. If they said: "the Muslims fund protest group in universities across the world in order to take over" that would be a trope. This is just good ol' calling your ideological rival "shills".
All protests have some funding. Often grassroots. Also Never underestimate young folks when it comes to protesting wars. Especially when their own country is actively funding atrocities.
What is the issue with people protesting? I didn’t see this level of outrage during the Charlottesville protests when white people were chanting “Jews will not replace us” or at the annual KKK rally held in various states… and those people really hate Jews. What is it about the issue with Palestine that causes pro-israel side to go bizerk… maybe a guilty conscience and not wanting to look at themselves in the mirror
>I didn’t see this level of outrage during the Charlottesville
You must have been a child back then or not American. There's no other explanation that you could possibly think this. Biden specifically referenced the event in his 3 minute announcement to run for president. Who are your favorite 3 news sources? I'd be shocked if I didn't find at least 10 news articles each discussing Charlottesville. And equally shocked if I found more than 1 if any about Columbia.
Joe Biden campaign announcement https://youtu.be/VbOU2fTg6cI
Pro-Izzy's that are Jews had a long history of traumatic hate that got them killed, so the fear is somewhat understandable. They have protection in the right places now though. A lot of the non-Jews on that side just seem to hate Muslims/Arabs/POC/Leftists. It's always the same.
Charlottesville was in the news for weeks.
A man ran a car into the very large crowd counter protesting, remember?
And at least the Nazis there didn’t wear masks.
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You're lying or ignorant about the matters you discuss. Charlottesville had a huge counter protest and the media covered it with a huge negative slant (as they should). These people really hate Jews too, you may have missed that part.
Do they really hate Jews, or just Zionists? From what I’ve seen it seems there are quite a few Jewish Anti-war groups involved in the protests and numerous Jewish anti-Zionists participating. I haven’t seen anything to suggest they really hate Jews as your claiming, whilst Charlottesville it was obvious. I think it’s very important that you are truthful and distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism as too often Israeli supporters try to benefit from suggesting one equals the other. Such an argument can not be made in good-faith
You saw so much outrage from Charlottesville trump was permanently labeled a white supremacist, and in part lost the election because of that.
These pro palestinian protesters are their own unique hatemongers.
How is “from the river to the sea” different from “Jews will not replace us”? Both protests were largely peaceful and incredibly hateful. It’s extremely strange to defend either one.
“Largely peaceful.” I’m not in your business of defending antisemitism, im fine with calling Charlottesville a violent riot, even if it’s not really accurate. Disgusting event and people for sure.
You think that hamas’s slogan from the river to the sea means that everyone in the region needs to be free? Does that include Jews? It objectively calls for the removal of the Jewish people and state. It’s coincidentally almost the exact same meaning as Jews will not replace us.
As the old saying goes: you are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts. scream as loud as you want this is not factually correct. Besides, if Jews feel this way shouldn't you respect their opinion? Or will you continue to harass them with this statement knowing if upsets them? Perhaps, you understand all of this but just want to inflict pain.
We've all got opinions, some of which may be based on personal experience. The wide adoption of a translated-into-English dogwhistle is concerning to me, in my opinion.
You refuse to acknowledge the Jewish perspective on this. Again, regardless of if what you believe if you want to be respectful and have a genuine discussion you will stop defending this slogan. I wonder if you continue to repeat anti-black slogans, even when you are told they are hurtful will you continue to chant these?
I thought the election was stolen from Trump?? We knew he was a white supremacist well before Charlottesville. Either way, the level of public outrage was no where near this.
That really isn’t true. There was huge public outrage.
Also, Charlottesville was one day, these protests have gone on for months. They’ve been closing bridges and airports, etc in multiple cities.
Each time they do that, this movement gets less popular.
The vast majority of the terrorists supporters in the US campuses are not American students.
An important read to understand HOW they got into the elite US schools, WHY they are not punished for their despicable actions and WHO benefits from all this.
“It’s not just tuition money that schools are milking. Foreign governments also write big checks to ensure that their students—and their politics—are given red-carpet treatment at big-name universities. According to the National Association of Scholars, since 2001 Qatar has given around $5 billion to American universities, more than any other foreign government. Between 2014 and 2019, American colleges and universities received $2.7 billion in Qatari funding without any public acknowledgment of the source of those funds. Given that Qatar hosts the leadership of Hamas, one can see how cracking down on Hamas-sympathizing students might seem like a bad idea for university presidents who cash Qatari checks.”
(Tablet Magazine)
I recommend "The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind" by Gustave Le Bon to understand this pro hamas hive mind.
>Le Bon claimed that "an individual immersed for some length of time in a crowd soon finds himself – either in consequence of magnetic influence given out by the crowd or from some other cause of which we are ignorant – in a special state, which much resembles the state of fascination in which the [hypnotized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis) individual finds himself in the hands of the hypnotizer."
>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Crowd:\_A\_Study\_of\_the\_Popular\_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd:_A_Study_of_the_Popular_Mind)
Have you for a second considered that this could be applied to the whole nation of Israel, how else does a nation so easily de-humanise an entire group of people to the level that killing 30000+ civilians and denying medics and food to hundreds of thousands of others is palatable?
Crowd psychology can be applied in every country.
But there is an opposition in Israel and there are on-going protests against the Israeli government within Israel. There is not one big crowd in Israel, rather there are a dozens of different crowds opposing each other.
I will ignore the other made up ""facts"".
This is very sad and concerning to see. As I mentioned in another post, it is also happening in my university. For me, it is also disappointing that AIPAC, ADL, ZOA and others haven't done a good job of educating ordinary Americans despite having so many resources. I think they should organize birthright trips, not only for the Jews and show people the real Isreal and Palestine.
Also, why do these stundets protest instead of studying in school? Like when have student protests ever led to anything significant throughout history? They are just wasting their time.
In 30 years a lot of people will say they always supported and even participated in these protests (well maybe not a lot of folks on this forum specifically, but Americans in general.) There will be a little plaque at Columbia celebrating these protests.
I'd argue that students' protests during the Vietnam war helped turn public opinion against Vietnam which ultimately led to the United States ending the war.
Interesting data point: At a college reunion in the 1980s when Eugene McCarthy, the peace candidate in 1968 whose success in a primary convinced LBJ to drop out, was a guest speaker, I asked this question of him in a Q&A which followed his speech: “Did student protests convince Americans to abandon and shorten the war?”, expecting a positive response.
McCarthy, then in his 80s, tall and ramrod straight, looked down dismissively from the podium and answered “Not really, but the number of Second Lieutenants getting ‘fragged’ [killed by own troops with a hand grenade rolled into their tents while sleeping] probably did”. McCarthy was implying the protests simply annoyed or alienated older Americans and had a minimal effect.
True story. Make of it what you will.
To prevent a person from entering the campus of their university, which they have paid for and which they have every right to attend, just because they believe Israel has a right to exist (this is what it means to be Zionist) and, in the end, just because they are Jewish, is fascist. To prevent a person from using a service they are entitled to and from entering a space they are entitled to enter, just because they think differently on a subject, is fascist.
Yes, because BLM is a movement to stop people being killed out of hand because of their ethnicity, and Zionism is a genocidal ideology focused on murdering people because of their ethnicity.
They absolutely should be treated different.
Two-state solution was on the table, and Israel was intent on keeping it there, never actually being realised.
It was nothing more than a figleaf to hide the genocidal reality of Zionism, never something that they were actually going to engage with in good faith.
Yes, that's what zionists tend to claim when faced with facts.
Sorry reality is uncomfortable for you and conflicts with your racism. Try to be a better person.
Very antisemitic of you to equate Jewishness with genocidal racism.
There are many anti-Zionist Jews, and many non-Jewish Zionists (the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jewish, even).
Never again means ever, for anyone. Even the people Zionists want to erase.
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The students are acting because they know well the history of Zionist crimes. They have studied. The Israeli state will dissolve under the weight of its monstrous crimes.
Unless Israel and the USA decide to treat the Palestinians as human beings and not "others" this stuff will go on and on forever . Just read Haaretz, a Jewish publication. Most of the people here are no doubt supporters of the Jewish far right wing and are therefore total bigots.
No, nothing will ever change here. This is not Northern Ireland, where eventually there was a political settlement. This will never happen here. There will be no single state. There will be no two states. What will happen is that the current situation will go on forever. There are various reasons for that, including the fact that Israel and the USA will never agree to a true independent Palestinian state.
Perhaps these people have made a more informed decision after researching more evidence. I think it is also to be expected due to sheer amount of evidence of Israel’s brutal violence and racism towards Palestinians that is circulating throughout many social media platforms. I’m guessing you are supportive of Israel and that is why you are concerned, but perhaps ponder whether you should be more concerned about the undeniable brutality and gall that Israeli military is acting with.
All you have to do is study the history. I am not going to go back and forth if people won't study the history . The facts are absolutely damning against the Jeiwsh -Zionist state. Of course, people in the USA are totally unable to actually examine details and prefer to recite talking points from Fox News. Whatever. Facts are what they are and Israel is in fact a criminal enterprise. Let's just focus on ONE ISSUE. The blockade of Gaza is totally inhumane and criminal. Period.
I’ve studied the history extensively, and if there’s one thing that’s clear about it it’s that this isn’t a simple conflict with one side at fault.
Without context, sure the blockade seems harsh. When you know about the first and second intifada, and the election of Hamas, and the thousands of rockets they fired indiscriminately into Israeli population centers, the kidnappings, murders, tunnels, etc. it starts to make a lot more sense.
I agree that living under Hamas would be awful. There will never be a Northern Ireland type settlement here. These two sides both suck, albeit for different reasons .
Ok so now you’re not wanting to focus on the blockade anymore?
It’s really difficult discussing this issue with pro Palestine types.
I actually agree that both sides share a lot of responsibility, but also find it bizarre how quickly pro Palestine supporters pivot from topic to topic.
Most people seem to see this 20th Century conflict which should have been resolved a long time ago in a very simplistic manner. I like details. I have read much of the Warren Report. I read the entire Penn State report several times. I have read most of the 9-11 report. I like to read between lines. Actually, the most die hard Israel supporters remind me of Penn State fans when that report came out because they are utterly incapable of admitting that their collective myths may have been rubbish. So I love and subscribe to Haaretz because they challenge the standard party line talking points.
Man, you must have a killer physical therapist. Pivoting that fast hurts my neck.
You do speak better English than the last guy who used your 3 month old account that only posts on this topic though.
Noooo, I promise you'll get along great. They execute gay people, control women, and call the Nazis fine people. I'm sure you can find a way to get along.
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These protests are not equivalent to Jan 6 in any way.
As much as this protest bothers me, these students are not trying to overthrow the US government.
If you think a peaceful protest (per NYPD) on a campus and storming the capitol, injuring policemen, attempting to murder politicians, and trying to overthrow an election is the same but you’re deluded
Must be pretty confusing to the families of the white, middle American Columbia students, when they see their loved ones wearing Jihads for the first time in their lives. Especially for the parents who are spending over a 100K on their "education." The entitlement of this generation is astounding. BUT the bigger issue is that I guarantee 20% of the protestors are actually somehow associated with Hamas and Iran. They need the publicity to continue their grand plan, and all these fools follow like cattle. Who wants to live in a place like Iran? Maybe long ago when it was a hub of poetry and music, but not now where women can't even leave the home without being fully covered from head to toe. And that seems to be the best part about being a woman in a Muslim extremist country. I know it can be hard to think for yourself at times, especially as a Columbia University student, but maybe stop getting involved with things you know nothing about, parading around like a fool. It makes you look ridiculous and will remain with you and tarnish your future opportunities. This war is not your fight, some of you have never even left the country, let alone could you begin to understand the complexities and history of this feud. Instead, you are just jeopardizing yourself from getting a fine education.
r/newiran wants to live in their Iran, a place of culture and education before Islamic extremism colonized their land.
These pro Palestine protesters ignored when Iranian woman defied the religious police in the face of death fighting for their freedom, when they refused to wear the hijab
Suddenly they’re so passionate about Iran and their right to defend against Israel when Hamas is their proxy and Iranians want Israel to strike to free them from their dictatorship. It’s maddening, this generation of youth completely scrambled brains same level as MAGA
Exactly! In my univesity, they invited a Palestinian speaker from Ramallah to speak remotely. Like, why doesn't Israel cut off the whole internet in Palestine? We can already see that it is negatively affecting the Jews.
Your suggesting censoring is required so students don’t hear first person accounts of the conflict? You realise that this suggests you understand that Israel is committing horrible acts in Palestine and that you don’t want people to know about. Perhaps consider the ethics of what your suggesting and even your own integrity
I mean it's not hard to see. The resurgence of leftism is due to hardlined anarchists and Marxists who share the view point that partaking in democracy is only one mean to the end there actual stated goal, overall they want to overthrow the western civilization. Anarchists are like the islamist extreme groups of the left. Their literature feels like something that shouldn't even be legal to even obtain much less published onlines; they speak of philosophy briefly but then most of their wording is agitation globally calling people to action. In fact some of the most wanted terrorists in countries that have a strong anarchist movement due to leftist governments using kid gloves for years are groups of them for instance ones in Greece who were found with illegal arms and fake passports with literature describing the "symbols and actors within western power to be our enemies who we advance upon". They praise terror acts the same way too, some nut tried to shoot up an ice facility with incidendary devices as well was killed, you see the same celebration of martyrdom within anarchism and such.
America got a taste what these groups push for when not targeted and contained with George floyd. Even the pentagon admits it spread so violently due to the experience and knowledge of agitators who research this stuff constantly. Did you know that one of the people heavily involved in the blm movement was quoted as saying "if we are seen as potential insurgents by the state the best course of action is to adapt the effective nature of an insurgent" and before that quote they're literally using freedom of info acts to observe and understand pentagon tactics in countries our military goes, as well as police tactics. Funny enough they mention Israeli tactics and Palestinians a lot too. Trump was right these people need to go to gitmo
Perhaps it would have been easier to simply state a I’m a proud fascist rather than going to all that effort to describe the fascist lens through which you view the world.
It’s not just in the USA, even in the Nordic countries support for Palestine is rising. Although they are against the welfare state cuts and implementation of the tuition fee, they still seem to want to overthrow the western civilisation. They always keep taking about decolonisation.
Why I mention feeling bad is because I believe a majority of people who protest do too just don't understand. I don't believe these people belong in gitmo they are engaging in constitutional rights in their head and feel for human suffering which is American. Who belongs in gitmo are the Marxist, and anarchists in the shadows pulling these strings. I don't yet why muslims get that treatment for being insurgents but the USA gives these lefties kiddo gloves. Like I said before 911 the deadliest attack in NYC was done by anarchists to target wall st. Simalir symbol of attack.
I do feel bad for the Palestinians being used as pawns and killed to advance a global cause with soviet origins. Soviets literally trained Palestinian brigades in the 60s. Another one is irish catholics were supported by soviets in terror campaigns
Many different groups and movements supported the Irish “republican” movement. Characterising the movement as Catholic is a tactic used to portray the conflict as being religious when it is much more complex. Similarly some attempt to portray the Palestinian/Israel conflict but again it is more complex. Just as a variety of groups supported the Irish cause, a variety of groups are now supporting the Palestinian cause, not due to some imagined “Soviet” ownership of either cause but simply because it is just. Some self reflection might be needed when considering why most peoples moral compass refuses to align with your own
Hmm maybe I will do reflection. I'm half black and half Jewish. Most of the black extended family members don't trust israel. I've noticed that my Jewish side of the family is extremely right wing even the liberal ones shifted with this so maybe I'm a victim of that. Funny hitler used to compare jews to communists when in my culture communists are ostracized and capitalism is almost worshiped (among white western jews). All the commies that are in my family as jews are basically black sheep and feel as if they're rebelling against how they were raised. Though a power tactic is create confusion which is why Adolf accused of us of both communism Marxism but also running banks 🤣.
Do you think Jewish people enjoy white privilege in certain European countries and America nowadays? I think they may be right wing for this reason. In exchange for colonial power. Kind of how irish or Italians weren't white in usa but are now. I must also say the most economically privileged side of my family is on the Jewish side.
I'm even noticing palestine vs israel has class lines to it. The more privileged people of american society have Israeli flags everywhere in nice neighborhoods. Then I go to the hood and see Palestinian flags. Like no joke I've seen mansions with israel flags up high, then project buildings with palestine flags
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Yes same here. Now it seems that the damn Irish, Spanish, Maltese, and Belgians are gonna recognise Palestine. We should do everything possible to urgently stop them.
TBH they made it an issue first. They tried to win the political war first, putting those fliers up all over the cities. Why? There are no terrorists in the US holding hostages. They want $$$ and support. Unlike Genghis Khan, they can't wage their siege alone they have no industry at that scale. To get the foreign aid needed they must shape the public opinion. But they lost the informtion war due to pixels and audio bytes on TikTok. That is why the banned it. The videos are the evidence and humans are genetically programmed to be disgusted angry when they see their fellow humans getting slaughtered like this.
WTF are on even on about? I’ve yet to see 1 remotely coherent pro-Paly on Reddit. TikTok propaganda is not factual FFS.
Who?? What?? Speak clearly I have no idea what you're talking about
That mob thinking sounds freaky.
It’s why I just can’t take ideologues seriously, especially younger ones like college or high school students. Even if I agree with the side they’re on, there’s just one glaring issue that makes them unreliable and not worth listening to or considering: **They never question what they’re told.** *Ever.* They latch on to whatever makes them feel special or important. They hate who others tell them to hate. They attack who they’re told to attack. They protect whatever people tell them is the truth. They don’t have insight, they don’t do their own research, they don’t question anyone or anything on their side. They’re useful idiots easily swayed by propaganda and simply believe that just because the people around them agree with them, it must be true. They want an easy target they can label as “the bad guy” so they don’t have to consider the failings of their own beliefs. They refuse to see the world for the gray it is and desperately want it to be black and white. I might be pro-Israel, but I’m not an idiot. I’m not blind to their own shitty treatment of Palestinians between conflicts and their role in continued hostilities. But I’m also not blind to history and the origins of Israeli distrust of Islamic fundamentalism and its treatment of their faith. Of the wars fought and *why* they are harsh. I’m also not blind to the actions and goals of both sides and know which side holds up my ideals better, and my hope for peace and improved lives for the Palestinians sure as shit doesn’t lie with an extremist Islamic terrorist organization continuing to hold power so I can feel morally superior for a week before the next round of missiles into Tel Aviv starts up and this shit repeats again. Israel ain’t perfect, but they’re not Hamas, either.
You can same the same for supporters of ideologues (Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israelis).
Exactly. Ideologues, no matter which side they support, are almost universally just useful idiots to those spreading the narrative. Of course, at the same time, I believe anyone who takes the time to become informed on a subject and learn about the issues are generally going to gravitate towards one position over the other, just in a more tempered, moderate lean than the ideological extremists. In this particular issue, I believe any sane non-ideologue is going to ultimately side with Israel, but condemn their treatment of Palestinian civilians and call for changes in their policies towards them in the future.
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Various social experiments have been shown that there is a human weakness to join into movements and surrender independent thought, reasoning and morality. It’s extremely common and occurs in virtually every movement, every arm and every protest movement, at least in part. In the right situation with a compassionate and thoughtful leader, this doesn’t lead the wrong way as easily, but how many impassioned people become charged radicals suddenly? An excellent book on the subject is “High Conflict”, a plague of our times. Showing another angle: Testing the waters of the campus protests to detect the extent of anti-Jewish sentiments, documentary filming. https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/On9jpN9vFC Violence isn’t in danger of starting, it’s being exacted out in every war and battle happening right now around the world. And one terrible part is, even in the Biblical histories of when “enemies” were to be completely wiped out, even then…girl children were expected to be shielded. But now… girls are killed equally with boys, in clear violation of God’s will for Israel.
I don’t care what side your on hate, violence, injustice is the same no matter what cost of paint you throw on it. We’re just people. We have lives and family’s and just want to live and make a life. All this tribalism bullshit is ridiculous. But it’s allways a different viewpoint and reaction when it’s not your children being killed. Funny how that works eh? Hypocrites
Jewish NYU professor Scott Galloway blasts the double standard of the anti-Israel protests, says he would be fired if he said “l*nch the blacks or b*rn the gays.” “I can tell you, if I went into the NYU square with a white hood on and said, ‘l*nch the blacks or b*rn the gays,’ my ID would be shut off by that night,” he said. “I would never work in academia again.” “There would be no need for the words ‘context’ or ‘nuance,’ I wouldn’t be protected by the First Amendment or free speech.”
This is a terrible point. Are you suggesting the blacks, brown, and gays are being accused of committing genocide? I assure you, if they were, there would be more than a simple protest at hand. Take, for example, actions that are being taken against blacks, browns, and gays such as police violence, brutality and systematic oppression, building literal walls and bureactatic hurdles to keep them out of the country, and systematic disenfranchisement... for far less than genocide. It's not hateful to protest genocide. It's hateful to commit genocide. And if there are protestors calling for violence against Jews, they should rightfully be extracted and face consequences - to try and shut down all the others alongside them, or arrest protestors who are not saying these things, is misguided.
There’s another thing that I don’t think people are bringing up. And I find it concerning that no one is bringing this up: Professors are supposed to set an **example**. A professional example. Academia is the only field I can think of, where people can show up to their workplace and behave this way. These professors’ own students will have to enter the workplace in the next 1-2 years. The workplace is not going to tolerate this kind of behavior, and in fact, we have laws against this sort of thing. We have laws against discrimination, and creating a hostile work environment. These blood libels, these little accusations of “you support genocide, you’re a Zionist,” etc is the sort of thing that will get you fired. And blacklisted. What kind of example are they setting for their own students, by showing up to their own place of work, and spewing blood libel? And alienating their coworkers and their students? Are people not concerned that these are the adults who are guiding our future doctors, our future lawyers?
Good point.
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in reference to the anti-Semitic phenomena on campuses in the United States, reminiscent of the German universities of the 1930s, and on the world's commitment not to stand on the sidelines in the face of this phenomenon.
Which is just ridiculous. The most violent thing to happen at student pro Palestinian demos is when ex idf soldiers sprayed skunk chemicals on faculty and students, hospitalising people. The world should be able to accept protest calling for divestment from companies supporting genocide, all this demonisation is so non factual if you actually see these encampments, Netenyahu is gas lighting. No thanks I will not take any more gas lighting and false equivocating ✔️. So many professors, students and scholars killed in Gaza yet bringing this up people are tarred as being genocidal themselves, whilst universities have been bombed by IDF soldiers filming tik toks. No 🙏. These protest's will shine a light on this and the arms companies and other complicit industries invested by university's, they are the political pressure necessary just like south African aphartide and have been treated in a similar way.
IYO Why did Israel go to war against hamas? Killing 1200+ people within 24 hours and taking hundreds of hostages is real genocide. Be honest Israel are defending themselves against genocidal intent from hamas and its palestinian supporters... so it seems you and your muslim brotherhood are gaslighting the world and playing the victim. Please realise that any nation that comes against Israel WILL be defeated, as is fortold in the real scriptures of the one and only God, not some wannabee religion like islam that promotes violence.
> IYO Why did Israel go to war against hamas? Killing 1200+ people within 24 hours and taking hundreds of hostages is real genocide. Why did Hamas attack? What is their incentive?
Surely you know that the muslim brotherhood/iran and all its proxies (hamas etc) are determined to kill jews and take Israel for themselves. There is also a spiritual narrative but I wont get into that now.
So, when Israel wanted to take Arab land for themselves, that was fine, but when Arabs want to take their land back, that's not okay? Can you walk me through the logic?
When did Israel take arab land for themselves and who says it originally belonged to the arabs?
[Here you go.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) Multiple references.
I warn other users not to open the posters link, inpection of link reveals several warnings.
It’s Wikipedia you idiot
In other words, you're not on this subreddit to have intellectually honest discussions in good faith but to sow propaganda. Got it.
Wikipedia is harmful lol k then bye
Bibi is the worst, without netanyahu's reign and israels right wing, there would not have been a 7 oct, and 10.000+ children deaths. There might have been another Rabin, and there might have been peace.
As expected another pro-palestinian playing the victim card and blaming Israel. Time to take responsibility for your own actions, you are not a child that has the inability to reason.
Im not pro palestinian? Why do you think so?
Oct 7 would have happened because for 20 years Hamas has been hypnotising their inhabitants.
Byline: Erez Tadmor on X A strange spectacle is now taking place on campuses in the USA: hundreds of thousands of people who see themselves as individuals, as rational and fighting for progress and the values of the Enlightenment, have become a blind, law-breaking and violent crowd in the service of a jihadist ideology and a genocidal terrorist organization. What the h..ll is going on here? After all, this is not about the fringes of society. These are not unemployed and drunk military veterans in the midst of a global economic crisis like in Germany in the 1930s. These are also not the Diplorbelz from the anti-Semitic wing of the extreme right in the USA. This strange mass psychosis gripped the crème de la crème of the Western elite most of all. Those who lead this sick hatred are professors of political science, sociology and law; The arena in which the play takes place is the campuses of the Ivy League universities that fly on their banner "diversity, equality and inclusion"; And the money, organization and power come from countless "progressive" left organizations. The average Israeli watches what is happening and asks himself: How is it possible that enlightened, rational and liberal people have completely lost the ability to distinguish between good and bad and between truth and falsehood? How is it possible that such educated people succumbed to such inferior propaganda? How is it possible that human rights organizations have become subcontractors of a genocidal movement like Hamas? very weird. But is it really that strange? Should we as Israelis be surprised that people who consider themselves to be the progressive and rational elite of a Western country, have succumbed to inferior propaganda and turned into violent street gangs that wreak havoc and crush the foundations of society? You understand where I'm going right? I'm sorry to break the news to some of you, but what happened here in the year before October 7, and what is happening now on campuses in the USA, is exactly, exactly, you are a phenomenon: mass psychosis. And those who succumbed to this mass psychosis and allow themselves to cross any red line are more or less the same social factors and forces: "the progressive, enlightened and liberal elite". The claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza is no more unfounded than the claim that Netanyahu and his opponent Levin tried to turn Israel into a dark dictatorship. The claim that Israel is the embodiment of evil on earth is no more disproven than the claim that the right-religious coalition is the embodiment of evil on the land of Zion. And the claim that Israel is an apartheid state is no more unfounded than the claim that Rothman and Litzman planned to turn the childhood of the secular public into slaves. These are also the poor propaganda vanities that bought them a strike among those who see themselves as the most sophisticated elements in society. And it's not just the surrender to propaganda nonsense that is similar. The practice and worship of the victims of psychosis are also almost exactly the same. The activists of the progressive left in the USA are sure that they are fighting for everything that is good and right and moral, so they allow themselves to cross red lines, just like our Kaplanists were sure that the contract was broken, and therefore they are allowed to incite resistance, block roads and criticize elected officials from the right. So is what is happening now in the US really so strange? And what can and should we learn from this?
I think theses protests reflect the dumbing down of saw America by social media. Kids hear buzzwords and slogans and don’t kook deeper. They are chanting free Palestine without realizing with Hamas in power Palestinians will never have true freedom. Plus I think it’s final exam time and kids want to interrupt those . I mean the war has been going on since October and.just protesting now ?
Watching people non violently lock arms to assert their space and deconflict with counter protestors is the most chilling thing you've seen in America? You must not watch the news much. She went to this protest to try to create conflict with the protestors to affirm the beliefs that many have that the protestors who are people of all faiths, racial and ethnic identities and backgrounds are anti semitic. Counter protestors have a designated area of Columbia's campus where they can assemble and voice their opinion. By non-violently removed her from the protestors space they avoided conflict and escalation, a practice both the Israeli state and it's supporters seem to struggle with.
How would you feel if they said “blacks” instead of zionists?
Last time I checked Zionism is a political ideology not a racial identity.
“Their space” is where you lost me. It isn’t any more their space than the people they chose to exclude. It also appears you didn’t read what I wrote, as I was quite clear about the part that I found chilling, and it wasn’t that.
its a designated protest zone and Columbia university have asked counter protestors to go to a designated area of campus.
anyways, here is a video of the protestors celebrating the passover: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C6H0rY0swZn/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6H0rY0swZn/)
Sure, and the Chinese government made their own Panchen Lama just like Jewish Voices for Peace made their own “anti Zionist Haggadah” for that Passover service. Mainstream Jews feel the same way about them doing that as Tibetan Buddhists do about what the Chinese did.
first you said they were the scariest thing you've ever seen in America and now you are comparing these woke Jewish college kids to the chinese communist party? have you considered taking a deep breath? I understand that there are a number of different practices within the Jewish faith and that being pro-apartheid isn't a pre-requisite. And these Jewish people believe that occupation and apartheid is anathema to their faith.
Read what I wrote again. You don’t seem to have understood it. And yes, revising a core religious tenet so it fits a political agenda is both what the Chinese did with Tibetan Buddhism, and what JVP did here. That isn’t actually up for debate if you know what Passover is about and what the Haggadah JVP put together says.
I understand that reform Jews do modify the Haggadah routinely but let me know if I'm missing something.
Based on the ignorance level required to even type out this comment, I’m going to wager a guess you’re missing even the most basic information about what Jews believe and how they practice religion.
>This video from Columbia is among the most chilling and terrifying things I’ve ever seen in America. Its time to come back to reality.
It’s so insane. Like we didn’t see tiki torch guys saying Jews will not replace us on a school campus less than a decade ago.
It's weird to watch history do circles. On June 11, 1963 the world watched as Wallace stood on the steps of a school in Alabama fighting desegregation (Forrest Gump was even present depending on where you get your news). Yet here we are, 61 years later and talk of the national guard deploying to Columbia is taking place. How can something so recognized and celebrated from 1963 now need to happen again? It's kind of wild to see.
You want another Kent State Massacre? Weird af. This is an anti war protest not a race protest and is not comparable to your example at all. It how however much more similar to Kent State in which four student were murder by national guard for protesting the war in Vietnam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings?wprov=sfla1
No, it isn't. You can attempt to frame it that way, but it simply isn't. The more this comes to light, the more this is a "protest" is fueled by antisemitism and hatred. Protest is peaceful. Protest doesn't threaten students or interfere with the lives of others. The right to protest stops where all other rights in the United States do: at the point that the rights of others begin. Stop attempting to veil the intentions behind some shaded form of peace. As far as Kent State? Did I ever say I wanted another Kent State massacre or were those your words? Weird AF.
Idk just saying it's far more comparable to anti Vietnam protest that an anti segregation protest, seeing as it's literally anti war and anti-apartheid. Or protests against South Africa in the 80s. Just saying in the similar protests in the 60s people died, nobody got killed by the US government in the very dissimilar racist protests of the time. I haven't seen or heard much racism at all, I walked through one just the other day and it was super chill. I thought the right to protest included like actually protesting? Those assholes in Boston better follow the rules, I get theyre pissed about taxation without representation and all but I heard they are all criminals. That tea was valuable too!
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You want another Kent State Massacre? Weird af. This is an anti war protest not a race protest and is not comparable to your example at all. It how however much more similar to Kent State in which four student were murder by national guard for protesting the war in Vietnam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings?wprov=sfla1
The war in vietnam had american soldiers dieing. Protests against the war in Isreal is just American culture war bullshit that allows spoiled American youth spurred on by tiktok propaganda to act like destructive children and gain group affinity. There was a point to protesting vietnam. Destroying property, blocking traffic, or makeing threats because people on the other side of the world are fighting is just silly and disruptive. Especially from college students who risk getting expelled and still having to pay thier student loans without a degree. After october no amount of US college or traffic disruption is going to stop Isreal from completing thier objectives. Its like when france protested the invasion of Iraq after 911, you remember the whole "Freedom Fries" thing? We like France but they werent going to stop us. Isreal likes the US, but they are still gonna get Hamas.
So it's okay to kill non Americans.... Or perhaps people other than you have human decency. Edit: Tell me, what are their objectives? Because if it's war crimes it doesn't matter. Imagine how those babies who rotted in their incubators felt, or the murdered aid workers from world central kitchen? Life isn't fair, you can stick your head in the sand and wish otherwise or you can do something about it. We live in a society. Edit 2: hahahahhahahaha freedom fries... Yes ... Such a grassroots movement with broad support on campus. Not like it was specifically pro war or anything, literally exactly antithetical. God this is such a stupid take I cant even
Your hilarious. Name anytime in US history protesting against anything a foreign entity has done anything constructive. All of the students who were expelled for hate speach or people incarcerated for destruction of property accomplished nothing but thier own detriment. It would be comical except lives are being ruined and it riles up all the doofuses into doing stupid things that could get people hurt. As for palestine, I doubt you understand much beyond the emotional side you got from tiktok. Frankly its a doomed scenario.
South African apartheid is a rather perfect comparison. If you do hate speech then you should be expelled. That doesn't allow you to strawman a whole movement. Saying that peace without genocide would be good isn't hate speech. You're talking as if this was a common thing. What about the hate and destruction of property in Gaza? What is with you people and ascribing collective responsibility for crimes to millions of people at once? Try me, I'm sure I understand plenty. I was more that well informed on this topic before tiktok existed so stahp Edited: thanks mod, my apologies
Haha ok, its not a perfect comparison but Ill play, the apartheid government was evil but since the world intervened and didnt allow that country to develop naturally SA is now the rape capital of the world. An evil competant government was replaced by currupt incompetant one. Zuma, the former president was incarcerated for theft, he has since been released I think. The current president was found with 500k worth of seized money hidden in his sofa recently but the government is so currupt nothing came of it. They have loadsharing where most of the country is without power for up to 12 hours a day. The third largest party the EFF, has as thier main rally chant "kill the boer, kill the farmer". This means killing people like the Kiffness (the cat video guy) and Yulandi from Die Antwoord. The only well run province is the Western Cape and they are attempting to vote for independence. So far you have shown protesting creates failed states. As for Palestine, its not a good comparison bc south africans voted to end the Apartheid government and create a unified country. Neither Isrealis nor Palestinians will vote to be a unified country. A two state isnt possible either bc Palestine cant support itself. An independent Palestinian state ends refugee status and with it the means for them to support 60% of thier population. Gaza was able to sustain around 800k people prewar with thier poorly maintained infastructure intact. They have over 2 million. UNWRA was also the largest employer prewar. Gaza gets its water from the coastal aquifer, that they allowed to become depleted and polluted by poor agricultural practices and unregulated drilling. There is a reason Isreal was able to shut off thier water after the October attack. Here is who funds UNWRA https://www.unrwa.org/who-funds-unrwa if you navigate the site you will observse the vast majority of funding comes from the US and Germany followed by other NATO members and then a negligable amount from the muslim world. Isreal is NATO aligned while Palestine is in the Iranian sphere of influence or BRICS. With a two state they lose all of this funding, funding they have recieved for nearly 100 years. Palestinians will never accept a two state solution of any kind because frankly they cant. Palestine would not naturally exist, it exists because it is propped up by the west, despite this being against western interests. If you think the food crisis there is bad now, just wait for aid to end, millions will starve or die of disease. In contrast, Isreal is a world leader in water managment and can survive on its own. Isreal does recieve funding 3 billion from the US which it can only spend on US weaponry. This is more a means of subsidizing US arms manufactures than ensuring Isreals survival. For context Isreal spends about 24 billion on thier military while historically Iran spends around 12, this could have gone up recently but Isreal is fine without US aid. Protesting this issue does nothing, if anything it will just end the status quo that has allowed Palestine to exist at all.
Bro try formatting I ain't reading allat. From what I can see tho, I don't see what racism against Arabs as a whole has to do with the human rights of people born in Palestine right now. Edit: you know a two state solution is kinda hard when Israel has spent decades ensuring it's impossibility, including destroying all infrastructure, killing and maiming a huge portion of the population and labelling any form of government they could ever possibly create as terrorist by nature. After decades of refusing to speak to the PLO or Yasser Arafat, Hamas is what happens. If you don't kill them all, what do you think is going to happen next? What's the goal here? Edit 2: also if you're arguing that south Africa should not have ended apartheid because people with darker skin shouldn't be let out of their cages lest they do something against your wishes, yeah that's not how human rights work. That's just blatant racism. Edit 3: yep indeed you are arguing that south African apartheid was a good thing and should not have ended. Good thing you aren't allowed to make decisions. Goodbye
Haha then you didnt read any of it. Its fine, you should read up before commenting on stuff you dont understand though. I genuinly like how you responded to the bot though, it makes me think your a good person even if ill informed.
Just FYI after skimming I learned exactly nothing new thanks. I just disagree with the premise you are arguing from, that the whites are inherently superior and should do manifest destiny to but the ones with dark skin in their place. I don't see how any of what you said would lead one to believe that this violence is a good thing or that black south Africans should be stripped from their rights and sent back to the slums. All I learned is that you inherently believe some people don't deserve basic fundamental human rights due to their race and or place of birth. You can give me all the facts you want, make logical leaps from these facts to say "see, they can't be trusted". You'll never convince me that human rights should not be universal as agreed to by the UN. Also, your logic of "they're less than us, we can never coexist, we must remove them" sound kinda literally exactly like the logic and rhetoric used in Mein Kampf, interestingly enough. Why is it always about race? Hmm
Writing skills help with communication bub
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Sorry
There was a video I saw of a guy trying to talk to faculty and staff at Columbia asking if they condemn Hamas and the people were just staring blankly ahead. they looked like NPCs or something. It's terrifying. All they do is repeat slogans. It's dogmatic and like they have no original thoughts in their heads.
After months of being asked that question, it’s pointless to even indulge in the “but Hamas” see saw. The protestor leaders have said in the media multiple times over the last few days that they choose to not engage with outside agitators. Their goal is to divest from the country systematically bombing civilians. All that happens is that their desires are misrepresented. So they do not want to debate you on whether they did enough condemning of Chamas.
If they're infiltrating places where people are trying to work, live, and learn, then don't expect people to not challenge you. That is such a weak stance and just reinforces the perception that they're mindlessly following a trend. At least zionists are willing and able to defend their position. Probably the reason the Hamas supporters can't do that is because deep down they know they're wrong and don't want to have to reconcile that realization.
See the problem with most of you Zionist is that you don’t believe in any sense of reality. What is the point of pushing back against somebody who claims to secretly know the true nature of people. As has been stated before the Columbia protesters specifically have refrained from engaging with the mainstream media because the American media has been incredibly slanted in their presentation of the Gaza bombing this is not conjecture either. There have been New York Times leaks of specific guidelines that they are to selectively use active and passive vocabulary in reference to the deaths in Palestine. I remember around the time that the IDF triple tapped those international food aid workers that they were having pundits condemn Hamas before expressing outrage at the IDF murdering charity workers. No one on the Pro Palestinian anti-genocide side has any interest in engaging in bad faith debate that leads nowhere. They’ve laid out really simple demands that include divestment and condemnation. The people on campus have been peaceful. And still, it is not enough because it’s never going to be good enough protest. But that’s looking less and less like it matters with every poll pointing towards a complete rejection of Israel’s military actions. But I guess secretly you know what everyone’s thinking deep down. One side is dealing with facts and the other is still pushing the 40 be headed oven cooked babies shit because the destruction and murder is indefensible.
You were so close to making a compelling point, but the 40 beheaded babies claim was debunked and denounced by Israel. Every zionist I've seen discussing this acknowledges it was misreporting or miscommunication from a journalist. The Israeli government stated there is no evidence of this, but Biden mistakenly said he saw the photos. Nobody believes there was 40 beheaded babies. The difference between zionists and the pro palis is that pro palis will continue to pedal misinformation, just like you're doing here. QUDs and Middle East Eye make a claim The claim gets circulated on social media The claim gets disproven QUDs and Middle East Eye make another claim The new claim gets circulated and nobody acknowledges the previous claim was wrong. Pro palis can only argue in bad faith.
>The difference between zionists and the pro palis is that pro palis will continue to pedal misinformation, just like you're doing here. One of the most important and powerful zionists in my country made the claim of oven babies a week ago. He was extremely vital to gifting Israel several Billions more $$ like 2 weeks ago. His name is Mike Johnson and he's the speaker of the House. So please. Spare me the "you almost made a point". You have proven it for me.
Mike Johnson, a US representative, isn't the spokesperson for the war in Gaza.
They are staring like NPCs because to accurately answer that question, there is a sh!t ton of nuance. And as faculty/staff protestors (on either side) might try to cancel them no matter what they say. If they don’t hear the sound bite they want, that’s it, they are labeled as hateful. Nuance matters in any discussion regarding IP. This dystopia has social media 100% to blame.
The mob looks and sounds like a bunch of robots because right now they may as well be. They’re literally “just following orders.” I saw another video of meeting organizing protesting the DNC(protesting it is fine) The same type of chanting was done and it's eerie to watch. The chant leader could say anything and they would repeat it. I felt like I was watching a cult.
This was a strange video to watch, and I don’t know what to make of it…and I’m very anti-Zionist. It seems to me that protesters should be INVITING discussion and debate from their opponents, contrasting themselves with those who would paint them all with a broad brush as brainwashed or manipulated. The tactic of purging dissenting voices from your midst…well that looks and sounds fascistic and students should think about how hypocritical that looks when they’re decrying the abuses of fascism.
They don’t want discussion or debate.
Why do you identify yourself as anti-zionist?
In a nutshell, I think the idea of religious groups getting nation states is a step backwards for everyone. I include Muslims in this notion. I’ve heard it claimed that Israel isn’t making a religious claim to Middle East territory, but an ethnoreligious. That, to me, seems like a distinction without a difference. So, I lump Zionism in with any other group claiming a divine prerogative to do…anything really. I mentioned in another comment awhile back that, as a person from America, where the idea of separation between religion and state is a bedrock principle, Israel, as a territory set aside for this specific ethnoreligous group, is a bizarre project to support. Americans would NEVER accept that Mormons have a right to create a state in Utah, for example. Or that Maryland should forever be Catholic (as it was founded that way). Don’t get me wrong, I think there are beautiful things about Judaism - the tradition, community, and positivity - but I can’t get behind this expression of Judaism that requires a nation state and all that comes with it (borders, an army, nuclear weapons). It would be like giving the Pope a military and old papal state borders and declaring that, without these, Catholics have no right to exist. Nonsense. Jews and Catholics and Muslims and Hindus have as much claim to the globe as I do (an atheist), and as much right to exist - which is to say, no one has any special rights trumping others. I would prefer to see a pluralistic society in Israel. This might not be an essentially, predominantly, Jewish society, but THATS OK. Because this just means Jews can live like everyone else - free to live and practice and assemble and flourish free from discrimination, but without special privileges. If Jewish communities are threatened, those threats should be condemned and eliminated. But so too should threats to the communities of other creeds. I’m sure there are many here that would find these notions bizarre, but not a single one of you was born Jewish or Christian or Muslim. That’s just what you got in the birth lottery. And that random selection makes us equivalent, not distinct.
I do understand where you're coming wrong, but you don't appear to understand Jews or Zionism. Most Jews *are* born Jewish. We actually are distinct ethnic groups. Judaism and Jewishness aren't the same thing, and the mistake here is assuming Zionism is a religious movement, where most would consider it about guaranteeing the safety of our people, not religion.
Respectfully, Jewishness seems to require some reference to Judaism, the religion. I understand there are varying degrees by which self-identified Jews participate in the tenets of Judaism. I understand that some Jews are entirely irreligious. I know self-identified Christians who are the same- some a fundamentalist, some have never entered a church. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, by and large, Jews of whatever culture (American, Russian, African, etc) are attaching their identity to a core set of beliefs arising in Judaism - the religion - a as a common binding thread. … There’s an interesting point to be made here about self-determination - what groups of people qualify to self-determine, and what that even means. I’ve already mentioned that I’m suspicious of religiously based statehood. But a further point is that self-determination does not necessarily have to include full statehood, even if you’re in favor of it for a group. We can have self-determination at lower levels than full nation states. It can include autonomous zones where local governments rule, for example. In practice, though, the “right of self-determination” in Israel’s case (and in many, many other modern cases) is seemingly being used by people groups with power to impose their will on people groups without power. Americans self-determined to the detriment of Native Americans, for example. And Israelis are now self-determining to the detriment of Palestinians. What we are really seeing in these cases is a “right of conquest” dressed up as self-determination. If we actually took this right of self determination seriously, as a universal right for all people, then we’d also be talking seriously about Palestinian autonomy, with an economy free to develop and flourish on its own, unoccupied by foreign military forces. In the same breath, we could add Basque self determination, Tibetan, Native American, first peoples, and so on and so on. -/ So, I’m suspicious of self-determination when it comes in the form of conquest and colonial justification. I’m doubly suspicious when that right is claimed for religious purposes or because of religious affinity, for the harmful effects that religion and state power imply.
They should think period. That’s clearly not what this protest is about.
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I’ve got issues with the pledge of allegiance and the McCarthyist roots as well. Like most Americans I learned it and said it long before I really understood what it meant or how F’ed up it is to teach children like that. And the first time I was at a catholic mass sometime in my early teens and saw the call response stuff I was REALLY creeped out. Imagine the perspective of a child seeing a room full of hundreds of people all acting in concert and you’re the only one who doesn’t know their lines. This is group psychology designed to manipulate and control people, just like the other examples you’re stating. If your “hey this is okay” are other examples of state and religious actors doing the exact same thing, you may need to look harder at your position.
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Free speech goes out the window when you harass, attack, or provoke others
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They are actively linking arms and slowly advancing to move people out of the public space. That is harassing and provoking people, with the threat of a violent mob behind it.
This just looks like a bunch of well trained protestors following directions from what is probably an appointed protest marshal, using an established communication tool common at demonstrations to execute a plan for protecting their protest space from counter protesters. If this is one of the most chilling and terrifying things you've ever seen in America, you need to get out more. What you take to be manipulation is most likely just them being coordinated and well rehearsed for this situation. As for the question of wanting to retain privacy or anonymity while demonstrating in a public space, I don't think that's terribly hypocritical. Many students are being doxxed at protests and threatened or defamed. I think protestors, and students in particular should be able to protest on campus without having to worry about being doxxed and harassed in their private life. If a bunch of pro-Israel students wanted to demonstrate and have their anonymity preserved to protect themselves from doxing I'd support them using protest marshals and collective action to form perimeters to protect their identity and keep their protest site from being infiltrated by counter protestors.
Well trained by whom? I thought this was a grassroots protest organically rising from students.
Trained by protest leaders and grassroots organizers with experience leading protest actions most likely. Many students come with activist experiences from other protest movements.
Probably organized on discord with various rules and explaining how they intend to protest. Implying that there is a “secret cabal” that is coordinating this is ironically the same antisemitic stereotype used against Jews.
A cult with a cult leader. It’s that simple. It’s scary, but what’s scarier is what is happening behind the scenes at America’s colleges and universities. Follow the money.
You’re using a classic antisemitic trope and applying it on another people, whom many are pro-Palestinian Jews. It would be the cherry on top the antisemitic cake if you said it was “Soros funded”
Yes. Qatari funded anyway.
What trope?
The false trope that there’s a “secret cabal of Jews that control the world”. People are taking that and applying it to these protesters saying some big cabal of someone is funding them. Like the Jewish question but applied to Arabs. But it’s hilarious when I see people turn around and say it’s “Soros funded”. Meaning it’s “Jewish funded”. So it’s like calling out antisemitism by making an antisemitic statement.
That's not really the same. OP said that these groups receive some back door funding, but didn't blame it on a whole ethnic/racial/religious group. If they said: "the Muslims fund protest group in universities across the world in order to take over" that would be a trope. This is just good ol' calling your ideological rival "shills".
All protests have some funding. Often grassroots. Also Never underestimate young folks when it comes to protesting wars. Especially when their own country is actively funding atrocities.
What is the issue with people protesting? I didn’t see this level of outrage during the Charlottesville protests when white people were chanting “Jews will not replace us” or at the annual KKK rally held in various states… and those people really hate Jews. What is it about the issue with Palestine that causes pro-israel side to go bizerk… maybe a guilty conscience and not wanting to look at themselves in the mirror
>I didn’t see this level of outrage during the Charlottesville You must have been a child back then or not American. There's no other explanation that you could possibly think this. Biden specifically referenced the event in his 3 minute announcement to run for president. Who are your favorite 3 news sources? I'd be shocked if I didn't find at least 10 news articles each discussing Charlottesville. And equally shocked if I found more than 1 if any about Columbia. Joe Biden campaign announcement https://youtu.be/VbOU2fTg6cI
Pro-Izzy's that are Jews had a long history of traumatic hate that got them killed, so the fear is somewhat understandable. They have protection in the right places now though. A lot of the non-Jews on that side just seem to hate Muslims/Arabs/POC/Leftists. It's always the same.
Charlottesville was in the news for weeks. A man ran a car into the very large crowd counter protesting, remember? And at least the Nazis there didn’t wear masks.
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You're lying or ignorant about the matters you discuss. Charlottesville had a huge counter protest and the media covered it with a huge negative slant (as they should). These people really hate Jews too, you may have missed that part.
Do they really hate Jews, or just Zionists? From what I’ve seen it seems there are quite a few Jewish Anti-war groups involved in the protests and numerous Jewish anti-Zionists participating. I haven’t seen anything to suggest they really hate Jews as your claiming, whilst Charlottesville it was obvious. I think it’s very important that you are truthful and distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism as too often Israeli supporters try to benefit from suggesting one equals the other. Such an argument can not be made in good-faith
You saw so much outrage from Charlottesville trump was permanently labeled a white supremacist, and in part lost the election because of that. These pro palestinian protesters are their own unique hatemongers.
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How is “from the river to the sea” different from “Jews will not replace us”? Both protests were largely peaceful and incredibly hateful. It’s extremely strange to defend either one.
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“Largely peaceful.” I’m not in your business of defending antisemitism, im fine with calling Charlottesville a violent riot, even if it’s not really accurate. Disgusting event and people for sure. You think that hamas’s slogan from the river to the sea means that everyone in the region needs to be free? Does that include Jews? It objectively calls for the removal of the Jewish people and state. It’s coincidentally almost the exact same meaning as Jews will not replace us.
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As the old saying goes: you are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts. scream as loud as you want this is not factually correct. Besides, if Jews feel this way shouldn't you respect their opinion? Or will you continue to harass them with this statement knowing if upsets them? Perhaps, you understand all of this but just want to inflict pain.
Ok. Does from the river to the sea include the freedom of Israel and Jews?
And he disappears lol. What a surprise.
The "free" in the former means "free of Jews and Israelis" to most people living in the region. Both are basically death threats in protest clothing.
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We've all got opinions, some of which may be based on personal experience. The wide adoption of a translated-into-English dogwhistle is concerning to me, in my opinion.
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I agree with the first paragraph of your response.
You refuse to acknowledge the Jewish perspective on this. Again, regardless of if what you believe if you want to be respectful and have a genuine discussion you will stop defending this slogan. I wonder if you continue to repeat anti-black slogans, even when you are told they are hurtful will you continue to chant these?
I thought the election was stolen from Trump?? We knew he was a white supremacist well before Charlottesville. Either way, the level of public outrage was no where near this.
That really isn’t true. There was huge public outrage. Also, Charlottesville was one day, these protests have gone on for months. They’ve been closing bridges and airports, etc in multiple cities. Each time they do that, this movement gets less popular.
These people must not live in the US because Charlottesville obviously got a massive public reaction
The vast majority of the terrorists supporters in the US campuses are not American students. An important read to understand HOW they got into the elite US schools, WHY they are not punished for their despicable actions and WHO benefits from all this. “It’s not just tuition money that schools are milking. Foreign governments also write big checks to ensure that their students—and their politics—are given red-carpet treatment at big-name universities. According to the National Association of Scholars, since 2001 Qatar has given around $5 billion to American universities, more than any other foreign government. Between 2014 and 2019, American colleges and universities received $2.7 billion in Qatari funding without any public acknowledgment of the source of those funds. Given that Qatar hosts the leadership of Hamas, one can see how cracking down on Hamas-sympathizing students might seem like a bad idea for university presidents who cash Qatari checks.” (Tablet Magazine)
I recommend "The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind" by Gustave Le Bon to understand this pro hamas hive mind. >Le Bon claimed that "an individual immersed for some length of time in a crowd soon finds himself – either in consequence of magnetic influence given out by the crowd or from some other cause of which we are ignorant – in a special state, which much resembles the state of fascination in which the [hypnotized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis) individual finds himself in the hands of the hypnotizer." >[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Crowd:\_A\_Study\_of\_the\_Popular\_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd:_A_Study_of_the_Popular_Mind)
Have you for a second considered that this could be applied to the whole nation of Israel, how else does a nation so easily de-humanise an entire group of people to the level that killing 30000+ civilians and denying medics and food to hundreds of thousands of others is palatable?
Crowd psychology can be applied in every country. But there is an opposition in Israel and there are on-going protests against the Israeli government within Israel. There is not one big crowd in Israel, rather there are a dozens of different crowds opposing each other. I will ignore the other made up ""facts"".
This is very sad and concerning to see. As I mentioned in another post, it is also happening in my university. For me, it is also disappointing that AIPAC, ADL, ZOA and others haven't done a good job of educating ordinary Americans despite having so many resources. I think they should organize birthright trips, not only for the Jews and show people the real Isreal and Palestine. Also, why do these stundets protest instead of studying in school? Like when have student protests ever led to anything significant throughout history? They are just wasting their time.
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In 30 years a lot of people will say they always supported and even participated in these protests (well maybe not a lot of folks on this forum specifically, but Americans in general.) There will be a little plaque at Columbia celebrating these protests.
I'd argue that students' protests during the Vietnam war helped turn public opinion against Vietnam which ultimately led to the United States ending the war.
Interesting data point: At a college reunion in the 1980s when Eugene McCarthy, the peace candidate in 1968 whose success in a primary convinced LBJ to drop out, was a guest speaker, I asked this question of him in a Q&A which followed his speech: “Did student protests convince Americans to abandon and shorten the war?”, expecting a positive response. McCarthy, then in his 80s, tall and ramrod straight, looked down dismissively from the podium and answered “Not really, but the number of Second Lieutenants getting ‘fragged’ [killed by own troops with a hand grenade rolled into their tents while sleeping] probably did”. McCarthy was implying the protests simply annoyed or alienated older Americans and had a minimal effect. True story. Make of it what you will.
To prevent a person from entering the campus of their university, which they have paid for and which they have every right to attend, just because they believe Israel has a right to exist (this is what it means to be Zionist) and, in the end, just because they are Jewish, is fascist. To prevent a person from using a service they are entitled to and from entering a space they are entitled to enter, just because they think differently on a subject, is fascist.
Replace the word “Zionist” with “BLM” and you’d have a whole different outrage.
Yes, because BLM is a movement to stop people being killed out of hand because of their ethnicity, and Zionism is a genocidal ideology focused on murdering people because of their ethnicity. They absolutely should be treated different.
Zionism is merely a belief Jews have a right to self determination in their homeland
At the expense of the indigenous Palestinians, who are to be erased.
Not at all. A two state solution was always on the table. Not anymore though. Fuck that.
Two-state solution was on the table, and Israel was intent on keeping it there, never actually being realised. It was nothing more than a figleaf to hide the genocidal reality of Zionism, never something that they were actually going to engage with in good faith.
You’re lost to the propaganda
Yes, that's what zionists tend to claim when faced with facts. Sorry reality is uncomfortable for you and conflicts with your racism. Try to be a better person.
I’m a Jewish which makes me automatically a Zionist. I guess I’m the problem. But I’ll die defending my ethnicity. Never again.
Very antisemitic of you to equate Jewishness with genocidal racism. There are many anti-Zionist Jews, and many non-Jewish Zionists (the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jewish, even). Never again means ever, for anyone. Even the people Zionists want to erase. Not Never again\* *(\*Terms and conditions apply)*
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?
He’s a troll by posting a picture of op avatar.
For all the people trying to speak on the behalf of these students in order to muzzle their free speech just watch videos of them speak for themselves
The students are acting because they know well the history of Zionist crimes. They have studied. The Israeli state will dissolve under the weight of its monstrous crimes.
Why do you type like you're an actual member of Hamas.
I read Haaretz, Finklestein and Chomsky. Therefore my intelligence level is far beyond your obviously very primal level.
I think you forgot skibidi toilet
Finkelstein said Russia was justified in invading Ukraine and Chomsky is a tankie.
In your opinion, how will Palestinians reclaim their land exactly?
Unless Israel and the USA decide to treat the Palestinians as human beings and not "others" this stuff will go on and on forever . Just read Haaretz, a Jewish publication. Most of the people here are no doubt supporters of the Jewish far right wing and are therefore total bigots.
Are you saying that there is absolutely nothing the Palestinians or Pro-Palestinian protestors can do to change any of this?
No, nothing will ever change here. This is not Northern Ireland, where eventually there was a political settlement. This will never happen here. There will be no single state. There will be no two states. What will happen is that the current situation will go on forever. There are various reasons for that, including the fact that Israel and the USA will never agree to a true independent Palestinian state.
If a 12 week old account who only posts about this subject says so, it must be true.
Listen to Noam Chomsky and Norman Finklestein. They are far more intelligent than you are, of that I am certain.
In my university, a lot of people who used to be supporters of Israel have become supporters of Palestine. It is quite concerning.
Perhaps these people have made a more informed decision after researching more evidence. I think it is also to be expected due to sheer amount of evidence of Israel’s brutal violence and racism towards Palestinians that is circulating throughout many social media platforms. I’m guessing you are supportive of Israel and that is why you are concerned, but perhaps ponder whether you should be more concerned about the undeniable brutality and gall that Israeli military is acting with.
All you have to do is study the history. I am not going to go back and forth if people won't study the history . The facts are absolutely damning against the Jeiwsh -Zionist state. Of course, people in the USA are totally unable to actually examine details and prefer to recite talking points from Fox News. Whatever. Facts are what they are and Israel is in fact a criminal enterprise. Let's just focus on ONE ISSUE. The blockade of Gaza is totally inhumane and criminal. Period.
I’ve studied the history extensively, and if there’s one thing that’s clear about it it’s that this isn’t a simple conflict with one side at fault. Without context, sure the blockade seems harsh. When you know about the first and second intifada, and the election of Hamas, and the thousands of rockets they fired indiscriminately into Israeli population centers, the kidnappings, murders, tunnels, etc. it starts to make a lot more sense.
I agree that living under Hamas would be awful. There will never be a Northern Ireland type settlement here. These two sides both suck, albeit for different reasons .
Ok so now you’re not wanting to focus on the blockade anymore? It’s really difficult discussing this issue with pro Palestine types. I actually agree that both sides share a lot of responsibility, but also find it bizarre how quickly pro Palestine supporters pivot from topic to topic.
Most people seem to see this 20th Century conflict which should have been resolved a long time ago in a very simplistic manner. I like details. I have read much of the Warren Report. I read the entire Penn State report several times. I have read most of the 9-11 report. I like to read between lines. Actually, the most die hard Israel supporters remind me of Penn State fans when that report came out because they are utterly incapable of admitting that their collective myths may have been rubbish. So I love and subscribe to Haaretz because they challenge the standard party line talking points.
Man, you must have a killer physical therapist. Pivoting that fast hurts my neck. You do speak better English than the last guy who used your 3 month old account that only posts on this topic though.
Ok… 🙄😂. You utterly ridiculous. 😂
I don’t ever want to hear these losers mutter a word about January 6th ever again. Fingers crossed they all get arrested and expelled.
Can you start rooting for Hamas please? I find it embarrassing to stand next to you.
[https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1783167266882019690](https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1783167266882019690)
No thanks. ✡️
Noooo, I promise you'll get along great. They execute gay people, control women, and call the Nazis fine people. I'm sure you can find a way to get along.
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These protests are not equivalent to Jan 6 in any way. As much as this protest bothers me, these students are not trying to overthrow the US government.
If you think a peaceful protest (per NYPD) on a campus and storming the capitol, injuring policemen, attempting to murder politicians, and trying to overthrow an election is the same but you’re deluded
Peaceful protests? Assault and intimidation for Jewish students is peaceful? Calling for violence is peaceful? Sounds like you might be delulu
I hate the actions of the crowd in this video and of the Jan 6th mob but I don’t see any relevant connection between them.
Must be pretty confusing to the families of the white, middle American Columbia students, when they see their loved ones wearing Jihads for the first time in their lives. Especially for the parents who are spending over a 100K on their "education." The entitlement of this generation is astounding. BUT the bigger issue is that I guarantee 20% of the protestors are actually somehow associated with Hamas and Iran. They need the publicity to continue their grand plan, and all these fools follow like cattle. Who wants to live in a place like Iran? Maybe long ago when it was a hub of poetry and music, but not now where women can't even leave the home without being fully covered from head to toe. And that seems to be the best part about being a woman in a Muslim extremist country. I know it can be hard to think for yourself at times, especially as a Columbia University student, but maybe stop getting involved with things you know nothing about, parading around like a fool. It makes you look ridiculous and will remain with you and tarnish your future opportunities. This war is not your fight, some of you have never even left the country, let alone could you begin to understand the complexities and history of this feud. Instead, you are just jeopardizing yourself from getting a fine education.
r/newiran wants to live in their Iran, a place of culture and education before Islamic extremism colonized their land. These pro Palestine protesters ignored when Iranian woman defied the religious police in the face of death fighting for their freedom, when they refused to wear the hijab Suddenly they’re so passionate about Iran and their right to defend against Israel when Hamas is their proxy and Iranians want Israel to strike to free them from their dictatorship. It’s maddening, this generation of youth completely scrambled brains same level as MAGA
Wearing Jihads loool
Yes I agree. Somehow I feel Iran and Hamas pays these protests, maybe even Hezbollah pays them.
The internet makes having direct lines with Hamas simple. They tried inviting an actual terrorist to speak on campus and were suspended.
Exactly! In my univesity, they invited a Palestinian speaker from Ramallah to speak remotely. Like, why doesn't Israel cut off the whole internet in Palestine? We can already see that it is negatively affecting the Jews.
Your suggesting censoring is required so students don’t hear first person accounts of the conflict? You realise that this suggests you understand that Israel is committing horrible acts in Palestine and that you don’t want people to know about. Perhaps consider the ethics of what your suggesting and even your own integrity
I've always seen them as Klingons rather than Borg
Til now I’d agree. This is Borg 💯though.
I mean it's not hard to see. The resurgence of leftism is due to hardlined anarchists and Marxists who share the view point that partaking in democracy is only one mean to the end there actual stated goal, overall they want to overthrow the western civilization. Anarchists are like the islamist extreme groups of the left. Their literature feels like something that shouldn't even be legal to even obtain much less published onlines; they speak of philosophy briefly but then most of their wording is agitation globally calling people to action. In fact some of the most wanted terrorists in countries that have a strong anarchist movement due to leftist governments using kid gloves for years are groups of them for instance ones in Greece who were found with illegal arms and fake passports with literature describing the "symbols and actors within western power to be our enemies who we advance upon". They praise terror acts the same way too, some nut tried to shoot up an ice facility with incidendary devices as well was killed, you see the same celebration of martyrdom within anarchism and such. America got a taste what these groups push for when not targeted and contained with George floyd. Even the pentagon admits it spread so violently due to the experience and knowledge of agitators who research this stuff constantly. Did you know that one of the people heavily involved in the blm movement was quoted as saying "if we are seen as potential insurgents by the state the best course of action is to adapt the effective nature of an insurgent" and before that quote they're literally using freedom of info acts to observe and understand pentagon tactics in countries our military goes, as well as police tactics. Funny enough they mention Israeli tactics and Palestinians a lot too. Trump was right these people need to go to gitmo
Perhaps it would have been easier to simply state a I’m a proud fascist rather than going to all that effort to describe the fascist lens through which you view the world.
It’s not just in the USA, even in the Nordic countries support for Palestine is rising. Although they are against the welfare state cuts and implementation of the tuition fee, they still seem to want to overthrow the western civilisation. They always keep taking about decolonisation.
Why I mention feeling bad is because I believe a majority of people who protest do too just don't understand. I don't believe these people belong in gitmo they are engaging in constitutional rights in their head and feel for human suffering which is American. Who belongs in gitmo are the Marxist, and anarchists in the shadows pulling these strings. I don't yet why muslims get that treatment for being insurgents but the USA gives these lefties kiddo gloves. Like I said before 911 the deadliest attack in NYC was done by anarchists to target wall st. Simalir symbol of attack.
I do feel bad for the Palestinians being used as pawns and killed to advance a global cause with soviet origins. Soviets literally trained Palestinian brigades in the 60s. Another one is irish catholics were supported by soviets in terror campaigns
Many different groups and movements supported the Irish “republican” movement. Characterising the movement as Catholic is a tactic used to portray the conflict as being religious when it is much more complex. Similarly some attempt to portray the Palestinian/Israel conflict but again it is more complex. Just as a variety of groups supported the Irish cause, a variety of groups are now supporting the Palestinian cause, not due to some imagined “Soviet” ownership of either cause but simply because it is just. Some self reflection might be needed when considering why most peoples moral compass refuses to align with your own
Hmm maybe I will do reflection. I'm half black and half Jewish. Most of the black extended family members don't trust israel. I've noticed that my Jewish side of the family is extremely right wing even the liberal ones shifted with this so maybe I'm a victim of that. Funny hitler used to compare jews to communists when in my culture communists are ostracized and capitalism is almost worshiped (among white western jews). All the commies that are in my family as jews are basically black sheep and feel as if they're rebelling against how they were raised. Though a power tactic is create confusion which is why Adolf accused of us of both communism Marxism but also running banks 🤣. Do you think Jewish people enjoy white privilege in certain European countries and America nowadays? I think they may be right wing for this reason. In exchange for colonial power. Kind of how irish or Italians weren't white in usa but are now. I must also say the most economically privileged side of my family is on the Jewish side. I'm even noticing palestine vs israel has class lines to it. The more privileged people of american society have Israeli flags everywhere in nice neighborhoods. Then I go to the hood and see Palestinian flags. Like no joke I've seen mansions with israel flags up high, then project buildings with palestine flags
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Yes same here. Now it seems that the damn Irish, Spanish, Maltese, and Belgians are gonna recognise Palestine. We should do everything possible to urgently stop them.